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We're prohibited by lack eight team plus terms 23 00:00:58.359 --> 00:00:59.079 and conditions apply. 24 00:00:59.200 --> 00:00:59.799 See website for. 25 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:11.480 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 26 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:14.560 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:18.719 written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer. 28 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:20.760 The Nightstalker DTK. 29 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:25.439 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 30 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.640 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 31 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:33.760 your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 32 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:46.000 Good Evening. The western suburbs of Chicago were being terrorized 33 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:49.319 by a serial rapist and murderer in the nineteen seventies 34 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.560 and nineteen eighties. Bruce Lingahl was a psychonic rapist and 35 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.560 killer who prayed on girls and young women for almost 36 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.879 a decade. He managed to escape detection because he did 37 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:03.280 not leave his rape victims alive, but in nineteen eighty 38 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:07.760 he kidnapped and raped Deborah Coleander in Aurora, Illinois. She 39 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:11.400 escaped before he could murder her, and Lindall finally was 40 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:14.080 arrested two months later, just before he was to go 41 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:18.199 on trial on charges of kidnapping, rape, and deviate sexual assault. 42 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:22.560 Lindall kidnapped and murdered Miss Coleander. Lindall disposed of her 43 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:25.080 body and no one could find her the following year 44 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:27.360 because the victim did not show up in court. The 45 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:30.199 kidnapping and rape charges had to be dropped, and he 46 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:33.639 could not be charged with murder without a body. Reporter 47 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:36.400 Jim Ridings wrote a number of stories for The Beacon 48 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:39.639 News over several months, determined to shine a light to 49 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:43.800 try to stop Lindall from getting away with another murder. Suddenly, 50 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:46.800 the public knew the truth about this monster who had 51 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:51.240 been able to evade justice and public attention. Aurora police 52 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:54.360 said Lindell planned to kill Ridings once the judge finally 53 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:58.039 dismissed the case, but fortunately, a few days after the 54 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:03.120 charges were dropped, Lindell accidentally killed himself while murdering another person. 55 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:07.439 The story took another turn nearly forty years after Lindell's death, 56 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:12.000 when DNA tests linked Lindell to an unsolved cold case 57 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:15.919 murder from nineteen seventy six. Murder in the Fox Valley 58 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:19.599 tells the story of Bruce Lindell's terrible crimespree and how 59 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:22.439 he finally was stopped. The book they were featuring this 60 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:25.680 evening is Murder in the Fox Valley, the true story 61 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:29.599 of serial killer Bruce Lindall, with my special guest journalist 62 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:33.120 and author Jim Ridings. Welcome to the program and thank 63 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:36.120 you for this interview. Jim Ridings, thank you, Dan, thank 64 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:40.360 you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book. You 65 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:44.919 write that the western suburbs of Chicago were terrorized by 66 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:47.639 a serial rapist and murderer in the nineteen seventies and 67 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:51.199 early eighties, and you were a reporter and wrote dozens 68 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:54.599 of stories for the Beacon News over several months. Let's 69 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:57.960 talk about and take us back to June twenty third, 70 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.960 nineteen eighty Deborah Leander, twenty five year old and the 71 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:05.960 Northgate Shopping Center. This is in Aurora, Illinois, around eleven 72 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:09.319 in the morning. Tell us, Sue Deborah Coleander is and 73 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:12.039 tell us what happens that day. 74 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:15.680 Never was a dietitian at the local hospital. She was 75 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:19.560 on her way to a gym to work out in 76 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:22.759 the morning, as she always did. A man came up 77 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:25.120 to her as she was locking up her bicycle. He 78 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:27.439 came up and said, could you help me start my car? No, 79 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:29.519 she was kind of hesitant about that, but he said, 80 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:31.759 all you have to do is put your foot on 81 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:34.160 the gas pedal while I worked the engine. So she 82 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:37.040 said okay. So she got in the car and then 83 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:40.279 he put a sharp object to her neck to Larry 84 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:43.800 to move over the girl to his house, who took 85 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.040 off his belt and looped it around her neck and 86 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:49.319 then led her into the house. Then he attacked and 87 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:53.120 inperaated her in a most violent manner, which I later 88 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:56.600 found out was his style. Afterwards he fell asleep. She 89 00:04:57.399 --> 00:04:59.959 managed to get out and go to a neighbor's house. 90 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.040 The Calfs were called and they came to the house 91 00:05:03.319 --> 00:05:07.000 and they arrested him. The first half on the scene 92 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:11.120 was David Torres, who just happened to beat Lindall's best 93 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:12.319 friend and he owned that. 94 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:15.959 Now because he knew Bruce Lindall, and he told his partner, 95 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:20.439 Officer Som that he would deal with him, and so 96 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:23.000 they knocked on the door. What was the state of 97 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:26.040 Bruce Lindall at that time and what happens as a result. 98 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:29.120 What did they find in their search during his arrest. 99 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:32.399 Well, they found the gun that he was holding to Deborah. 100 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:34.959 They found a bunch of polar Ride pictures that he 101 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:38.680 had taken of her, and some other incriminating evidence. He 102 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:41.199 didn't seem too from what I could tell, he didn't 103 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:43.639 seem too upset of like, you know, what's this all? About, 104 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:46.480 you know, especially when he saw his best friend. They 105 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:49.120 took him in and booked him and he was held 106 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:50.720 in the county jail. 107 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:54.360 Now tell us about his efforts to get bail and 108 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:58.199 be bonded out. And what about Debra? What does she 109 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:02.759 say to police concerning her ordeal and also to her sister, 110 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:07.160 especially about the behavior of this person during the assault. 111 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:10.439 Debra gave a full report to the police, and she 112 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:13.040 told her sister Sue, all about it and that she 113 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:17.199 was basically a traumatized by her. But she was determined 114 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:20.600 to go to court, even though it was very upsetting. 115 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:22.360 She was going to go to court just to see 116 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:24.439 that he was put away and didn't do this to 117 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:25.199 any other woman. 118 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.240 So at the same time, she believes she tells her 119 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:32.319 sister and she believes that she is safe because he's 120 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:36.639 behind bars. She even moves after this rape to another location, 121 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:40.399 and you write that there's even she moves closer to 122 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:44.240 the hospital. She has a security guard walker to her car. 123 00:06:44.519 --> 00:06:48.680 So she's recovering from this ordeal, but believes that he's 124 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.120 in jail. Meanwhile, what happens. 125 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:53.160 Now she didn't know this, but she bailed out a 126 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:57.000 month after the attack in the July nineteen eight. So 127 00:06:57.480 --> 00:07:00.639 on October seventh, nineteen eight, she was getting off work 128 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.839 at the hospital about nine pm and she walked through 129 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:07.439 her car and was headed home. She only lived about 130 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:10.360 seven blocks away and that's when she got in her 131 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:11.720 car and flashed. Anybody's thought. 132 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:16.079 Now you write that there was the location where her 133 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:19.839 home was, and the idea that maybe she was abducted 134 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:24.879 was considered. What about the location was ideal we'll say 135 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:27.879 for some sort of an abduction at that location. 136 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:30.720 Well, it was an old house divided up into a 137 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:34.800 number of apartments and she parked in the back. There 138 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:37.279 is the area in the back. It was not well lift, 139 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:39.920 there were some bushes. Lindall was hiding in the bushes 140 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:41.839 and she got out of the car headed to the 141 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.399 apartment house. He grabbed her and you know, the details 142 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:47.399 we don't know, but he killed her and he took 143 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:50.000 her out to a farm field and he buried the body. 144 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:52.800 Now, tell us as you write about this Bruce Lindell, 145 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:56.920 he was working as a small engines repair instructor in Caneland. 146 00:07:57.160 --> 00:07:59.920 Tell us a little bit more about this Bruce Lindell 147 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:04.319 and what happens with police in pursuit of the missing 148 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:05.720 Deborah Coleander. 149 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:09.160 Well, initially the police were told to treat this as 150 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:13.600 just another missing person case, which is ridiculous because she 151 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:16.040 was a couple of weeks away from going to court 152 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:17.920 to testify it against this guy, and all of a 153 00:08:17.959 --> 00:08:20.839 sudden she vanishes. You've got to be suspicious about that. 154 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:24.279 The officers were told just this is just another missing 155 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:26.319 person case. She could be any place she might have 156 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:26.839 taken off. 157 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:32.480 The parents, Viking an artist Coleander, are not reassured by 158 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:36.480 the police whatsoever, and immediately travel to Aurora in November 159 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:39.080 looking for their daughter. And they say they had little 160 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:43.279 help from police, so they hire a private investigator. They 161 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:46.159 do as much as they can, or they believe they can, 162 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:49.440 and then there is tell us about the response what 163 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:52.200 happens as a result of this missing person's case. 164 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:55.000 In their regard, police weren't telling them anything and they 165 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:57.559 weren't helping them at all, and they felt police weren't 166 00:08:57.559 --> 00:09:00.960 even doing anything. That's what they felt. To the Beacon 167 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:02.679 News to talk to me because I had done a 168 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:05.799 few articles about this, and I had known Devor just 169 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:09.840 very casually because the year before we both worked at 170 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:14.360 local mental health hospital. I was working there undercover to 171 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:17.200 find out all the details of all the abuses and 172 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:19.000 so on and so forth that went on. So she 173 00:09:19.159 --> 00:09:21.879 was a dietitian at that mental health center, and then 174 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:24.440 then she went to work at the hospital. So they 175 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:26.279 asked me if I would help, and I said, I 176 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:29.000 said yes. So I kept doing more articles, and these 177 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:33.120 articles for the first time Lindall's name was used. He 178 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:36.320 was anonymous. That's how I got away with all of 179 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:40.320 attacking all these women is because he was not charged, 180 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:42.840 like I said, most of the time, and nobody knew 181 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:45.759 this at the time. These women just went missing. Most 182 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:48.879 of the time there was nobody to be found. He 183 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:52.000 was not charged, so he was getting away with it. 184 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:54.879 And my articles were the first ones that actually named 185 00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:00.279 him as obvious suspects in DEBONK. Coleander's disappearance, and I 186 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:04.080 mentioned other cases of women who were missing, and I 187 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:06.879 think people could add two and two, and suddenly he 188 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:09.720 was well known. He got fired from his job when 189 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:12.000 he was arrested and spent a month in jail. So 190 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:14.799 at the last minute, Caitlin High School needed a small 191 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:18.679 enginecy and he applied for it, and of course he 192 00:10:19.080 --> 00:10:21.399 lied about his background, so they hired him, so he 193 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:24.120 was teaching high school. It's small engines. 194 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:28.200 You write about also that this Karen Weeks you had 195 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:31.240 spoken to her as well. As a result of that 196 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:34.639 was disappearance. What did she have to say? And you 197 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:39.919 write that these articles started heating up with the newspaper coverage, 198 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:44.000 the case began heating up. Was were you pushing? Was 199 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:46.840 there some pressure on police as a result of the 200 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:48.000 articles that you were writing. 201 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.720 I think so, but I don't know what that amounted to. 202 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:54.320 I know that eventually they put him under surveillance, which 203 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:56.000 I didn't know at the time. In fact, I didn't 204 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:57.960 know until this year when I did the book. 205 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:00.559 This hearing that was supposed to happen. And so the 206 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:04.200 articles that you are writing in the Beacon News are 207 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:09.200 being published. What kind of pressure is the media effect 208 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:12.480 on Bruce Lindall and what does he do the result? 209 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:14.960 Well, I think he mostly had an impact on the 210 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:18.360 court because when he came up for a preliminary hearing, 211 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:21.399 his lawyer said, well, Judge, this woman didn't even care 212 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:23.679 enough to show up in court. It's press charges. So 213 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:26.480 we asked that the charges be dismissed. By that time, 214 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:29.159 the judge and everyone else that seemed on my article 215 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:33.159 she was missing. So I think the newspaper covered put 216 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:35.440 pressure on the judge and the courts. No, we're not 217 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:38.000 going to dismiss the charges. Now, his lawyer filed an 218 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:40.919 emotion for a speedy trial, which means it has to 219 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.600 come to court within one hundred and sixty days or 220 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:46.679 if he dismissed. So it kept coming up on two, three, 221 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:50.759 four times for preliminary hearing, and the judge kept continuing 222 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:53.960 until he had the drummers. And I think the newspaper 223 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:55.559 story had a lot to do with that, because in 224 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:58.080 any other case, I think the judge would have dismissed 225 00:11:58.120 --> 00:11:59.799 the case. You know, we don't have a witness to 226 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:02.840 to buy against this guy, so we can't dismiss it. 227 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:07.320 You talk about her car being finally found February sixteenth, 228 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:10.080 when a person came into the newsroom that had been 229 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.919 following the stories and had recognized the vehicle. 230 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:15.200 Yeah, a man came up to my office and said, 231 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:17.799 I think we found Debbie's car. You know, I have 232 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:20.440 a walk by. It looked like it. I got being 233 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.519 an article, and it's the same make and model and license. 234 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:26.080 And I said, okay, well let's go down and look 235 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:28.000 at it. So I went down to the train station 236 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:30.320 parking lot with him and it was her car. And 237 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:32.080 then I called the police and so pulled him to 238 00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:33.200 come and get it. 239 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:37.120 So I mentioned this Viking coleander. Debra's father hires a 240 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:42.039 private investigator, and then that private investigator contacts you in 241 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:44.919 January of nineteen eighty one. What does he tell you? 242 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:50.080 And then tell us about this anonymous informant? And Byron Marshall. 243 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:52.720 Well, the private detective that he hired, talked to me 244 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:54.559 in a number of occasions. I think he wanted to 245 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:56.559 know what I knew, and I wanted to know what 246 00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:59.080 he knew. And he had told me some things that 247 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:01.679 I didn't publish at the time. I put it in 248 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:04.120 the book in twenty twenty two. But Matt nineteen eight 249 00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:07.600 he knew a couple of Chicago caps that would arrest 250 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:10.639 Lindahll on a false charge and take them somewhere and 251 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:13.639 beat the information out of them to where Debbie is 252 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.080 and then they would dispose of Lindall. He would never 253 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:20.080 be found. But it didn't happen. Debbie fi didn't know you. 254 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:24.240 Write about the State's Attorney Robert Morrow, reviewing the seventy 255 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.480 five pages of police files and met with Aurora of 256 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:32.080 Police Chief Robert Brent and the Chief of Detectives Don McDonald, 257 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:35.879 and all efforts to locate Deborah were conducted. There was 258 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:39.960 no witness against Lindall at this case, so as you write, 259 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:44.720 the charges were dropped. And it's interesting that you wrote 260 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:47.679 that you tried to chase him down, you and a 261 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:50.559 partner to try to get an interview or a photo, 262 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:53.879 I guess, and you have a chapter called Poetic Justice 263 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:57.679 April fourth, nineteen eighty one, less than a week later. 264 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:00.240 What happens, Well, as far as they're chasing down, he 265 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:03.759 was at one of the preliminary hearings and I knew 266 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:06.320 they always snuck him in and out the back way. 267 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:11.120 He didn't come in normally, so me and our staff photographer, 268 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:12.960 we wanted to catch up to him. I wanted to 269 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.720 talk to We ran down the courthouse steps, we were 270 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:19.120 coming out the other way. We chased them for about 271 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:22.600 a block or so, and he went into a flower shop. 272 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:24.440 By the time we caught up with him, caught up 273 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:26.360 with the shop, he was out the back door and 274 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:28.480 we lost them, and I thought it was you know, 275 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:32.120 why is this is a homicidal maniac, and he's run 276 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:36.120 away from me, from him now. On April fourth, Lindall 277 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:40.279 went to a bowling alley in Neighborville looking for potential victims. 278 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:44.080 He met this eighteen year old boy and somehow he 279 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:48.080 convinced the boy to come to his apartment, as this 280 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:52.279 a girlfriend's apartment, which was a short distance away. Exactly 281 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:54.679 how he did that, exactly what happened, we don't know. 282 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:58.320 What we know is inside that apartment, he stabbed the 283 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.159 boy to death. He stabbed him twenty eight times, and 284 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.440 in the frenzy of wild they stabbing the boy, one 285 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:07.960 of the swings went wild and he hit himself in 286 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:10.720 the fine He had a major article and he led 287 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:11.279 to death on the. 288 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:14.759 You're right, there was poetic justice that this serial rapist 289 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:18.399 would die from stab to by his own hand, to 290 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:19.360 his growing. 291 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:21.399 Yes, sound it was poetic justice. 292 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:24.080 It's interesting too, we didn't mention that he had this 293 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:28.639 girlfriend that finally realized that the kind of abusive person 294 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:32.159 he really was and was trying to leave. Yet trying 295 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:34.879 to leave, but she was at the home. She was 296 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:39.919 asleep when apparently this attack happened, and awoke to this 297 00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:43.639 nightmare from some sort of sleep or some kind of 298 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:47.639 drug hazed unconsciousness that she was experiencing in the room 299 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:50.879 and didn't witness any of the carnage. But police had 300 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:51.799 some questions for her. 301 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.639 Yeah, she was finally getting wise to who he was 302 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:58.720 and what he was because of the newspaper coverage. So 303 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:01.559 she moved out of the house and into an apartment 304 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:04.440 in Neighborville. He was with her that night. He wasn't 305 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:06.519 going to let her go, so she was in her 306 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:09.320 bedroom with the door locked. She had been intoxicated that night, 307 00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:11.759 so she didn't hear what was going on. She sat 308 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:12.919 up in the middle of the night to go to 309 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:14.879 the bathroom. When she came out of the bathroom, she 310 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:17.840 saw these two dead bodies on the floor. He just 311 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:20.519 soaked in blood, and then she called the police. The 312 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:22.279 police didn't have a lot of questions for her, but 313 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:25.679 her story held up. But your foot wasn't lying or 314 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:28.080 covering up anything which she told him turned out to be. 315 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.720 So tell us, Sue Bybroan Marshall is and he called 316 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:34.080 you at home to tell you that Lindall was dead. 317 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:36.559 So tell us who he is and what else he 318 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:39.639 had to say. And you talked to your editor, Mary 319 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:42.679 Lou Bassett. So what happens with that conversation. 320 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.840 Well, Byron Marshall was a stockbroker in Chicago, and he 321 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:50.080 also was a skydiver, and so was Lindall. So he 322 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:52.440 knew he knew Lindall from the airport and he didn't 323 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:55.279 like him. So once Dever disappeared, he started calling me 324 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:58.200 with information about Lindall and things like that. And I 325 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:00.600 don't know how he knew, but he knew before I 326 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.960 did that Lindall was dead. He called me in the 327 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:05.279 morning and said that Lyndall was dead in this apartment 328 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:07.200 and on on so forth. So I called my editor 329 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:08.720 and told her and I said, I'm going over there 330 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:11.839 right now, and I did, and there were cops all 331 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:15.000 over the apartment building. And then I went down to 332 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.680 the police station and talked to them and got all 333 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:18.200 the details. 334 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:21.640 You found out that you had a direct effect on 335 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.920 Bruce Lindaw What did you find out in terms of 336 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:26.480 that effect on him? 337 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:29.960 My articles exposed him to the public. Key was unknown, 338 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:33.359 his name was not known. This was causing him a 339 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:35.880 lot of trouble. He wants his job. Friends turned out 340 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:38.880 against him. He had told the police that he felt 341 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:43.079 personally threatened by me because of my newspaper. By that, 342 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:46.599 he thought that I might treditable. He got some anonymous 343 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:49.279 threatening letters and took those police and said he thought 344 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:51.559 eyesen So I mean he was. He was kind of 345 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:54.039 losing a mind out. When he was at the high 346 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:58.799 school teaching, he was trying to seduce some young boy 347 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:01.960 and h he had a phone call with a boy 348 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:05.799 that he caped, and that was illegal eavesdropping. So the 349 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:08.839 police came to his to his house deserve a warrant 350 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:11.799 for that. He saw them coming, we closed the door. 351 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.279 He went in the kitchen and pulled a shotgun as 352 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:17.880 the police came in. Well, the cops, I guess talked 353 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:20.440 him out, talked him into putting the shotgun down, but 354 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:23.240 he panicked because he thought the debtor's body had been 355 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:25.160 drumped and they were coming to get him. Well, it 356 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:26.680 was just a warrant for eavesdropping. 357 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:30.559 So how do police proceed with this investigation? 358 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.559 I don't know that they did much because you know, 359 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:35.559 in a way, they couldn't do much. They didn't have 360 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:38.519 a body, they didn't have a witness, they didn't have evidence. 361 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:41.640 They could have searched his house, they could have searched 362 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.720 his car, which they did after he died, and found 363 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:49.079 evidence here and newspaper with depor's name on it in 364 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:50.759 the trunk of his car. They could have done that, 365 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:52.960 but they didn't. They didn't do They didn't do a 366 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.519 whole lot. Once the depper disappeared, now they had him 367 00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:59.759 under surveillance. But well, they had him under surveillance. 368 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.480 Now, let's find out what you find out with your 369 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:06.839 basic your investigation. And so many people spoke to you, 370 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.160 and you talk about that in twenty nineteen, Detective loud 371 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:15.559 And speaks to you about Pamela Mauer. Let's talk about 372 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:19.839 the idea that there was other victims and your research 373 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:21.279 into that idea. 374 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:25.039 Well, once Lindell died, I had already done some articles 375 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:29.400 about women and young young teenage girls who had gone missing, 376 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:32.359 and it kind of done on me. I wonder if 377 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:34.039 he had anything to do with this. So I did 378 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:36.000 a couple more articles than that, and I talked to 379 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.480 police chiefs in other towns, and it kind of all 380 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:44.119 of these disappearances kind of fit the same pattern, and 381 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:46.079 they kind of fit new pair. So I asked the 382 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:49.119 question back in nineteen eighty one, after he died, did 383 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.599 he do these. Nothing came of that until twenty nineteen. 384 00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:56.680 Detective of Chris Louden of the Lyle Police Department was 385 00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:59.480 looking into a coold case he had seen that had 386 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:03.519 been answers in DNA technology and he wondered if DNA 387 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:06.440 could help him in his nineteen seventy sixteen so he 388 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.480 did a lot of investigating on his own. He said, 389 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:11.880 when he was in the Kendall County Coroner's office, he 390 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:14.720 saw a file with a whole bunch of articles of 391 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:19.319 mind Lindall, so he kind of focused on Lindall. He 392 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.200 interviewed Lindall to brother, who was not that cooperative. But 393 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:25.640 the more he got into it, he thought Lindall might 394 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:28.400 be the man. So he wanted some DNA from Glendall. 395 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:31.920 He asked brother for DNA, he said no. He said, okay, 396 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:33.599 I can I have permission to exhume the body and 397 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:36.240 get DNA. Said no, So he went to got a 398 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:39.519 cord or to exhume the Lindof body and he did, 399 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:42.079 and he got DNA and it was a match. 400 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:45.880 You talk about the role of genetic genealogy in this 401 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:49.799 as well. Further advances in DNA that helped solve the 402 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:54.119 Golden State killer case. Tell us about that those advances 403 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:56.680 and his relation to this, well, that's. 404 00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:59.000 Kind of technical. Come up with all kinds of new 405 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:05.359 technology pinpointing people and ancestry and native origin and even 406 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:10.119 specific genes and specific families. And they when they compared 407 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:14.480 the DNA of the chiller from nineteen seventy six to 408 00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:17.319 Lindell DNA that came up at the match, and they 409 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.480 found out he's the one who killed this sixteen year 410 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:22.519 old old girl in nineteen seventy six. 411 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:27.279 Tell us about the investigation into the death of Pamela Mauer, 412 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:29.119 and tell us about her death. 413 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:32.359 She was sixteen and it was nineteen seventy six. She 414 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:35.640 was at some friends' house and she was going to 415 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:39.079 leave and walk to McDonald's and get a coke like that. 416 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:42.240 So she left the house and she wasn't seen again 417 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:45.279 until someone found her body alongside of the road and 418 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:48.680 the next morning she had been great and strangle. The 419 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:51.559 thing about that is A detective at the time was 420 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:55.519 named Ken Wilbert. He went to a bunch of apartment 421 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.720 houses in Woodridge to ask questions about people, if they 422 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.079 saw then if they heard anything. He knocked on one 423 00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:04.799 woman's door and said she said, yeah, her screams coming 424 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:08.359 from the apartment Lindall's department. Last name, Okay, So he 425 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:11.839 went to Lindall's apartment. Lindall said, yeah, we were having 426 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:15.680 a party, and that's that. That's all the investigating he did. 427 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.200 If he had looked into a little bit more, he 428 00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.440 might have found out that Lindall not only killed this 429 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:23.880 young woman, but would kill the whole bunch of other 430 00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:26.799 young women because he had been caught a few times 431 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:29.319 with women who were bleeding or women who had made 432 00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:32.440 accuvations against him, but nothing ever came to that. So 433 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.920 this detective just sort of fell down on the job. 434 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:38.160 All the women who chilled after nineteen seventy six could 435 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.200 have been alive if he had done his job. 436 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:44.720 So when did they finally get the confirmation of Pamela 437 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:47.559 mar and Bruce Lindall's involvement. 438 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:51.440 That wasn't until Chris Louden in the Lyle Police Department 439 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:54.880 sent the DNA off to a lab and that was 440 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:56.720 in late twenty nineteen. 441 00:22:56.920 --> 00:22:57.440 Now, with that. 442 00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:01.680 Confirmation, you you write that there was other jurisdictions obviously 443 00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:06.720 interested in Bruce Lindell potentially what kinds of numbers are 444 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:10.240 we looking at realistically that he is suspected in being 445 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.200 involved with murders and rapes. 446 00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:15.559 It's kind of hard to tell because at least a dozen, 447 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:18.759 I'm certain more. But it's hard to tell because the 448 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:22.359 women went missing. In many cases their bodies have not 449 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:25.000 been found, so how are you going to link there? 450 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:28.400 And if they did find a body today, Lindell DNA 451 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:31.240 would not be honest anymore. So, I mean, you know 452 00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:34.039 some people have said, you know a difarity. Well, I 453 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:36.279 don't know about that, but we just don't know. 454 00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:38.799 Let's stop for a second to hear from our sponsor, 455 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:42.279 which is talk Space. Putting yourself first in the new 456 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:46.000 year doesn't have to be a challenge thanks to talk Space. 457 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:50.079 Using talk Space feels a little like having a mental 458 00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:55.880 health professional in your pocket. 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Today, go to talkspace dot com and use 479 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:28.480 the code true Murder to get one hundred dollars off 480 00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:31.599 your first month and show your support for the show. 481 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:37.440 That's true Murder and talkspace dot com. Now, when we 482 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:41.759 last spoke, we were talking about the DNA had solved 483 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:48.240 the the Pamela maur case, other jurisdictions were inquiring about 484 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:51.480 Bruce Lindall he suspected, and other murders and other rapes 485 00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:56.200 you chronicle in this book, so many other similar mos 486 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:00.640 and even signatures of Bruce Lendell. It seemed to be 487 00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:03.799 correspond with some of the crimes that you chronicle in 488 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:08.880 this book rapes, and again some people got away. Fortunately, 489 00:26:09.319 --> 00:26:13.400 the idea that this could happen. You outline how this 490 00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:17.440 could possibly happen and the cooperation it received from many 491 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:22.480 police departments. However, not in Aurora so much. Tell us 492 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:27.079 about your investigation or your at least look into David 493 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:30.559 Taurus and the what we can only call is the 494 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:32.839 Aurora Police Department not doing their job. 495 00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:35.880 The police and other jurisdictions cooperated with me when I 496 00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:39.920 when I ask questions, but they didn't court coordinate among themselves. 497 00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:42.240 If they had, they might have seen some of the 498 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:46.000 similarities in the chases they had. As far as David 499 00:26:46.039 --> 00:26:48.519 Torris goes, he's kind of a question mark. He was 500 00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:51.400 Lindolph's best friend. They went out together all the time, 501 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.440 they went skydiving. Now today he says he didn't know 502 00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:57.000 anything about but I don't know how he could not 503 00:26:57.079 --> 00:26:59.920 have known something was up with Linda. 504 00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.839 In terms of his role in the investigation, you write 505 00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:09.279 that the reports about the crimes itself were kept from 506 00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:13.200 a certain detective or a certain officer, and you speculate 507 00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.759 that that certainly must have been David Torres, and for 508 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:18.640 the police to not trust him with those police files 509 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:21.799 sort of seems to indicate that he might have been 510 00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:25.759 prone to interfere on behalf of his friend. 511 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:29.000 Well, that's what Byron Marshall told me, But David Torres 512 00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:31.519 told me that he didn't. Yeah, the police kept the 513 00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:34.319 file away from them, but they were still crying. 514 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:38.160 What about a net Lazar tell us about her and 515 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:42.759 her the crime perpetrated against her, and that investigation into 516 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:45.240 the likelihood that Bruce Lindau was involved. 517 00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:47.160 Well, I was just going to get into that. More 518 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:50.359 than a year before De colly Anders attacked a Net, 519 00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:53.640 Lazar was walking to the friend's house and Lindall said, hey, 520 00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:56.240 come on over, you know. So she went over to 521 00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:58.359 his house. He got her to come in, he pulled 522 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:00.279 a gun on her and he took to get a 523 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:03.279 Bettermann attacked her in the same just the same way 524 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:05.759 he did with Debbie. She might have been killed too, 525 00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:10.359 except she was smart. She started to flatter him and say, 526 00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:14.079 hands him and there's my number, and you call me again. Well, 527 00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:17.920 his whole personality changed then, from a vicious, mean person 528 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:20.279 that all of a sudden it came nice. Okay, Well 529 00:28:20.599 --> 00:28:22.640 she was just saying that so she could get out, 530 00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:25.559 and she did. She went to the police. And who 531 00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:29.359 was the investigating officer, David Torres who owned the house, 532 00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:33.680 David Torres, who is lindoff best friend, David Trres. David 533 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:37.680 Tauris questioned her as if she was the guilty party. 534 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:39.960 He said, look at this. Your name and number is 535 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.200 on this piece of paper. You gave this to him. 536 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:44.480 Why did you do that? She said, to save my life, 537 00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:47.039 That's why I did it. The police would not, I 538 00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:49.720 guess they didn't believe her, or they didn't pursue it. 539 00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:52.599 If they had, we might have been put in jail, 540 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:55.480 and Debbie Collinander would be alive, and a whole bunch 541 00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:58.400 of other women would be alive. But the police wouldn't 542 00:28:58.559 --> 00:28:59.319 wouldn't pursue it. 543 00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:04.880 You write about her undergarments not being tested versus Pamela 544 00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:09.759 Maurs under pants being tested forty three years later. Tell 545 00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:11.119 us what you write about that? 546 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:14.759 Yeah, that's another insane thing. They say, well, you know 547 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.599 this happened like eight hours ago. The evidence on your 548 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:21.720 panties would not be any good anymore, too old. And 549 00:29:21.799 --> 00:29:24.000 I thought, well, wait a minute, Pamela Mawer panties were 550 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:26.920 still good after forty three years. Why would it be 551 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:30.200 an an a net not be any good the same day. 552 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:32.680 It just shows they didn't want to pursue this. And 553 00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:34.640 I don't know how much influenced her is at but 554 00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:37.720 maybe he had influence. Maybe the police just didn't want 555 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:39.480 one of their own to look bad. I don't know. 556 00:29:39.640 --> 00:29:44.599 We didn't write about Debra Coleander's remains being finally found 557 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:48.400 in April twenty seventh of nineteen eighty two, and they 558 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:52.160 brought in a prestigious and prominent forensic scientist who had 559 00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:55.400 worked on the John Wayne Gacy case, among others. What 560 00:29:55.519 --> 00:29:57.599 did they find? What did he find in terms of 561 00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:00.799 the determination of the cause of death, any other thing 562 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:03.759 that might be evidentiary for police. 563 00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:06.519 Well, they did not find the cause of death. There 564 00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:09.079 were no bullet holes, there were no stab wounds, there 565 00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:11.920 was no broken bones or skull or anything. So he 566 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:15.119 probably just a strangled to death. That would be the 567 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.039 quietest and least messy way of killing her behind her 568 00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:21.759 apartment covering that night, so there was no cause of death. 569 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:24.920 But the police did look in the trunk of his car. 570 00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:28.680 Finally they found the pairs belonging to Debbie, so the 571 00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:32.039 obviously transported her. In the trunk, they found some newspapers 572 00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:34.359 and mail with Debbie's name on it, which means that 573 00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:36.640 Lindall was in her apartment that was waiting for her 574 00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:40.359 finding out which apartment choosing, and they pretty much it's 575 00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:42.599 obvious he did it. Nobody else could have done. 576 00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:46.599 You right of all kinds of similar occurrences that seemed 577 00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:50.799 to be related to Bruce Lindau, and also that a 578 00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:54.599 couple of characters named Charles Nichols and Jerry Lindall his brother. 579 00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:57.920 What information did they give you? Were they cooperative at all? 580 00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.079 Charles Nichols was cooperative. He was also one of Lyndall's 581 00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:04.000 best friends, but he eventually woke up and kind of 582 00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:06.559 turned against them, and he talked to me a bit. 583 00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:08.599 Lindall's brother, of course, would not talk. 584 00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:11.720 What about Patricia Perkins you had asked to speak to her. 585 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:14.440 What do you think of her role in this and 586 00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.759 the idea that she was oblivious to the things that 587 00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:18.640 he was up to. 588 00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:21.039 I think she just she met him and fell in 589 00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:23.559 love with him, and they moved in. And when she 590 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:27.640 went to work every day, which Lindall free to seek 591 00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:30.480 out women and attack them, I think she was just 592 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:33.759 blind that was going on. But once the newspaper articles 593 00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:36.319 started about him, she was kind of waking up herself, 594 00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:39.119 and that's when she moved to Naperville to her own apartment. 595 00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:43.839 You say that Nichols always suspected Bruce of the murders. 596 00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:45.880 I think he had an idea. I think he had 597 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:48.559 an idea that he was guilty of the Eventually it 598 00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:49.759 kind of gone. 599 00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.599 On, you write in this book too. You titled it 600 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.799 the Making of a Monster. Bruce was born in nineteen 601 00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:58.839 fifty three in Saint Charles, Illinois. His father was Jerome 602 00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:02.279 and his mother was Arlene, and he had three other siblings, 603 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:05.880 and his parents soon divorced and he lived with his 604 00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:09.920 father with his brother Jerry. Tell us what you found 605 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:13.880 in terms of his behavior and some events in his 606 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:14.559 early life. 607 00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:16.559 Well, he and his father did not get a law. 608 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:19.119 They hated one another. He moved out when he was 609 00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:21.920 a senior in high school. And lived with a family 610 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:24.480 of a friend. Some people might say, well, you know, 611 00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:28.240 his traumatic upbringing, the divorce and all this might might 612 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:30.440 have caused this. I don't buy that for a minute. 613 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:32.559 A lot of people get divorced and their kids don't 614 00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:35.680 turn into psychic tours. You know, this was all on him. 615 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:40.640 You did write more about David Taurus and the idea 616 00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:44.440 that he was more involved than anyone could ever imagine. 617 00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:49.039 Tell us what you wrote about the potential of his involvement. 618 00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:52.519 The potential, I mean, who knows what the potential could 619 00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:53.799 have been. Could have been a lot, It could have 620 00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:56.799 been what he says. He's still alive and denying that 621 00:32:56.920 --> 00:32:59.200 he had anything to do with anything, and he didn't 622 00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:02.880 know that he was doing this. But once Lindall was dead, 623 00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:05.039 you know, he was asked, do you think could have 624 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:07.640 been a serial killer? And he said, yeah, yeah, I do. Well, 625 00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:09.400 how come you didn't think that when he was alive. 626 00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:13.839 But you're right about this airport and the idea that 627 00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:16.960 his car was seen at the airport, that he couldn't 628 00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:19.759 have another vehicle. What of this idea of yours? 629 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:23.200 Well, this is something I didn't know until a few 630 00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:26.079 months ago, before I finished the book, I had found 631 00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:29.400 out that the police said Lindall under surveillance they were following, 632 00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:32.279 and I didn't know that. And I also didn't know 633 00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:35.400 until I talked to a tourists this summer and he 634 00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:38.359 told me that it's one time when they were skydiving, 635 00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:42.000 and when they finished skydiving, Lindall said, you know, could 636 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:44.319 you give me right home? Said okay, I will, And 637 00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:45.920 you know what, I'm not feeling too that, I'm just 638 00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:48.720 going to lay down, see okay, go ahead. And then 639 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:51.799 according to Torres, they said once they once they left 640 00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:54.960 the airport, they sort of done on him that Lyndall 641 00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:57.359 was hiding in the back seat to evade someone. I 642 00:33:57.400 --> 00:33:59.920 didn't know who they were, who he was evading. I mean, 643 00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.079 he could have figured it out he was a cap. 644 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:06.119 Lindall was a suspect. But then it sort of dawned 645 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.320 on me, okay, that that would have been the night 646 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:11.679 he choked Debbie Commander, because if he was being watched 647 00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:15.360 the whole time, and the cops were sitting watching his 648 00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:18.960 car at the airport and he gets away, they're still 649 00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:22.039 sitting there watching his car and he gets away, that 650 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:24.679 was the one night he had when he wasn't being watched, 651 00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:27.440 and that would be the night that he choked Debbie. 652 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:29.480 I didn't know that until now, and I sort of 653 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:31.480 figured that out after the cars told me that he 654 00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:32.440 helped him get away. 655 00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:34.239 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a 656 00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:35.559 second for these messages. 657 00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:40.440 Judy was boring Hello. Then Judy discovered chumbacasino dot com. 658 00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:41.960 It's my little escape. 659 00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:43.800 Now Judy is the life of the party. 660 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.960 Oh baby, mama is bringing home the bacon. 661 00:34:46.239 --> 00:34:50.960 Ohoa, take it easy, Judy. The Chumba life is for everybody. 662 00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:53.679 So go to chumbacasino dot com and play over one 663 00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:55.199 hundred casino style games. 664 00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:57.440 Join today and play for free for your. 665 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:02.119 Chance to redeem some serious prices chump A cacio dot com. 666 00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:03.199 No necessary point. 667 00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:05.159 We're prohibited by montem plus terms and conditions applying and 668 00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:05.920 what severety details. 669 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:10.920 Now with that idea in mind, and you you write 670 00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:15.719 that he is suspected in so many rapes and murders 671 00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:19.760 that seem to have his signature and MO written all 672 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:24.280 over them. What of police linking him to other murders 673 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:27.880 and other rapes using as you write about the Parabon 674 00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:31.599 nanolabs and their breakthroughs in genetic genealogy. 675 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:36.320 Well, I know some police departments are looking into old cases, 676 00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:38.519 and of course they won't talk about that until they 677 00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:40.760 have something. But the problem with that is you have 678 00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:43.920 to have the DNA of the victim and the DNA 679 00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.880 of the suspect. A lot of these victims don't exist. 680 00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:50.039 They ad bodies were not found with the other victims. 681 00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:53.400 They don't have the DNA of the suspect. So I 682 00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:56.519 don't know what the likelihood is of solving any more 683 00:35:56.840 --> 00:36:01.239 gold cases. I think this was solved in twenty nineteen. 684 00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:04.519 They announced it in early twenty twenty. That's been quite 685 00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:07.679 a while. They've got the Lindell DNA because they dug 686 00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:10.559 up his body. I think if they could have solved 687 00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:12.639 any of these cases, they were done it by now. 688 00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:16.679 You write that you obtained the Bruce Lindell file from 689 00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:20.519 Aurora Police Department in twenty twenty two through the Freedom 690 00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.559 of Information Act. You wrote that it is surprisingly slim, 691 00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:30.880 unlike hundreds of pages from police departments in Naperville, Lislow, Woodridge, 692 00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:35.400 and Downer's Growth. Tell us what your deduction is. Your 693 00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:39.599 conclusion is in terms of this investigation by Aurora Police department. 694 00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:42.920 Well, there's a lot that I know that they didn't 695 00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:45.360 give me. One example is when they came to his 696 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:48.159 house to serve the warrant for illegal news dropping and 697 00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:50.920 he pulled a shot down out. That report was not 698 00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:53.280 given to me. And I know it exists because I 699 00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:55.280 had it at the time nineteen eighty one and I 700 00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:57.320 did a story about it in ninetety one, so I 701 00:36:57.400 --> 00:36:59.400 know it exists, but they didn't give it to me. 702 00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:02.679 There has to be a file on surveillance. They didn't 703 00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:04.679 give that to me. Somebody else. A couple of other 704 00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:06.679 people told me about it, but that was not in 705 00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:10.719 the file. It was very slim, hardly any any information 706 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:14.119 at all. And when you think of the other police departments, 707 00:37:14.199 --> 00:37:17.840 Downers Grow, for example, hundreds of pages, Neighborville, hundreds of pages. 708 00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:20.599 They had everything they had on because they're supposed to 709 00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:24.559 you file a Freedom of Information Act request, they're supposed 710 00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:25.039 to give it to you. 711 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:29.320 Chris Louden was very vocal about his opinion about this, 712 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:32.199 and he used the word cover up. Tell us what 713 00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:35.519 he had to say regarding that. And you also talk 714 00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:39.320 about police reports for Annette Lazarre in seventy nine and 715 00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:44.159 Deborah Coleander in nineteen eighty. Just some discrepancies that you noticed, 716 00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:45.599 and what did you make of that? 717 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:49.400 Well, actually both attacks were quite similar. With a net, 718 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.280 they just totally discounted it. They didn't believer at all. 719 00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:56.079 With Devor, they did believer. They came and arrested them. 720 00:37:56.280 --> 00:37:58.440 Obviously they had them with the goods, the gun and 721 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:01.440 the photographs and all that. You know, if they had 722 00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:04.280 surveillance on Lindahl, they should have had it. They should 723 00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:06.880 have especially had it on Debbie because because she was 724 00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:09.119 the one who would have been attacked, he could always 725 00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:11.320 get away what she did. But they should have been 726 00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:12.039 watching her too. 727 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:15.480 You have a chapter called Questions Remain What do you 728 00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:17.599 talk about accomplices potentially? 729 00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:20.320 What do you discuss He was involved in a whole 730 00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:24.840 lot of folks. He had hundreds of photographs of naked women. 731 00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:30.360 Some looked willing, most looked either intoxicated or terrified. Now 732 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:33.360 these there's too many for all of them to beat 733 00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:35.800 his victim. But the police said that, you know, a 734 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:39.679 lot of these types of people, they will swamp photos. 735 00:38:40.039 --> 00:38:42.679 And he may have even been involved in the child 736 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:45.840 pornography too, which you know, we don't know for certain 737 00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:48.159 because you know, by the time that came out, he 738 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:50.360 was dead. I don't know if I don't think he 739 00:38:50.440 --> 00:38:53.920 had any accomplices, not that I know of, but who knows. 740 00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:59.360 You write very interestingly about David Taurus, and we mentioned 741 00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:04.719 about having this surprisingly lack of evidence that they restored 742 00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:07.840 or they retained, I should say. But also a very 743 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:11.920 interesting fact that you mentioned is David Torres had a 744 00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:14.519 key to the evidence room. Would you like to discuss that. 745 00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:17.199 Yeah, he did, now he says, I didn't have that 746 00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:20.119 until I became the sergeant in nineteen ninety four, but 747 00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:22.920 I would have no cause to dispose of any evidence. 748 00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:26.360 But evidence was disposed of the photographs that Lindolph took 749 00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:28.719 of Debbie call Lander, the gun he used, and so 750 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:32.440 all that's missing. And the detective Chris Loudon said, you know, 751 00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:35.360 you're supposed to achieve that evidence, especially when they're a 752 00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:38.360 homicide and it's all gone. I don't know what happened 753 00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:39.159 to it, but it's gone. 754 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:43.599 You're right about in the follow up about the Beacon News, 755 00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:49.320 the articles, the effect and also what it led to. 756 00:39:49.719 --> 00:39:53.920 Inadvertently or you were part of having the Pamela Mauer 757 00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:57.440 case salved, which led to more interest in Bruce Lindell 758 00:39:57.719 --> 00:39:59.920 and potentially other crimes that me he may have commit. 759 00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:03.320 Tell us you write about in terms of this overall 760 00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:07.480 effect of the Beacon News, your articles and your involvement. 761 00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:10.159 Well, I think the Beacon News had a huge impact 762 00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:13.079 on this because if it wasn't for all these articles 763 00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:16.639 that I did, the chase against Diver Collander would have 764 00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:19.880 been dismissed at the first hearing and nothing would have 765 00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:22.440 been made of anything. It was the newspaper article that 766 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.599 put his name in the public eye and people knew 767 00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:29.280 about him, and suddenly his neighbors, the people at the 768 00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:31.239 high school, they all knew about him. And that was 769 00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:33.519 the worst thing that could happen to a guy like that. 770 00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:37.920 He operated under the secrecy where people didn't know who 771 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:41.000 he was. That's how he could get women and attack women. 772 00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:45.239 Suddenly they knew who he was. And then once he died, 773 00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:50.800 articles mentioned other potential victims in other towns, and that 774 00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:55.199 sort of put the cops on alert to look some 775 00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:57.360 of these cases. But that was in nineteen eighty one. 776 00:40:57.599 --> 00:41:00.840 Nothing happened, and again it would have needed DNA, which 777 00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:04.800 actually may exist. They did not have any being being 778 00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:08.039 any technology. I like to tell you was somebody's blood tank. 779 00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:08.440 That was it. 780 00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:11.719 You're right about the broken system and the problem with 781 00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:15.000 rape cases inherently. Can you discuss that well. 782 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:18.400 Especially in those days, when a woman made an accusation, 783 00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:20.840 especially if she went to court, she was put on 784 00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:24.719 trial more than the attack. Right, the lawyers could ask 785 00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:27.519 what about your background? Do you have sex a lot? 786 00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:30.559 Do you? Did you ask for it? What was wearing? 787 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:33.840 On the other hand, they couldn't question the suspect at all. 788 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:36.800 First of all, if he declined to take the stand 789 00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:39.760 in his own defense, then they couldn't ask him anything. 790 00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:42.440 But even if they did, even if he did take 791 00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:45.320 the stand, and they couldn't ask about any of his background, 792 00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:47.800 they couldn't even ask about any any time. He couldn't 793 00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:50.159 charge the many so he had he had more rights 794 00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:52.599 than the victim did, which you know it caused a 795 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:54.440 lot of women not to want to go to court. 796 00:41:54.519 --> 00:41:56.840 And what do you think can be learned from this case? 797 00:41:57.119 --> 00:41:59.800 I mean, obviously then you're saying is more thorough police 798 00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:02.960 and investigation, But you also are critical of the court's 799 00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:06.760 decision and question how it was that the judge had 800 00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:09.719 no information, he didn't have a criminal record at that 801 00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:13.159 time with his first bail that he was released on 802 00:42:13.400 --> 00:42:16.559 with for four thousand dollars. But that was a crucial 803 00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:21.400 moment in his criminal career. What about the judge not 804 00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:26.079 knowing enough information from the basic charge itself in order 805 00:42:26.199 --> 00:42:29.559 to realize that this person might be dangerous and warrant 806 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:30.360 no bond. 807 00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:34.159 Well, this is an initial attack. When he was held 808 00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:37.119 in jail for Jemi count Leander, he was let out 809 00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:39.840 on only four thousand dollars bail. I mean that's a 810 00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:43.119 If you look at the police report on this, which 811 00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:47.360 I have, it was an especially vicious attack. No judge 812 00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:49.800 should have well, I mean they should have said no bail. 813 00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:52.519 But they led him out on bail. And then after 814 00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:55.519 Jenny disappeared and the Caps came to his house and 815 00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:57.960 he pulled a shot down, he was let out I 816 00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:00.599 think the next day on three hundred and fifty dollars bail. 817 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:03.400 Now that I can't say the judge didn't know. The 818 00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:05.480 judge would have to know because the state's attorney would 819 00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:08.679 have presented him this is a dangerous man. He viciously 820 00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:12.000 assolved with this woman. She disappeared. We suspect he had 821 00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:14.199 something to do with it. He's a dangerous man. And 822 00:43:14.280 --> 00:43:15.920 he pulled a check out on caps. This is a 823 00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:18.920 dangerous man. And the judge said, okay, the bailout. I mean, 824 00:43:19.079 --> 00:43:21.320 the judge would have had to have known. Now, even 825 00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:24.920 if even it wasn't convicted of these things, just the 826 00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:27.440 facts of the case, the state's attorney would would have 827 00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:30.159 told judgement and asking to deny bail. But I don't 828 00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:31.760 see how the judge could not have known. And the 829 00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:34.320 judge gets the newspaper, so he would have seen all 830 00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:35.800 this in the newspaper as well. 831 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:40.679 It's incredible to the after he's bailed out, they don't 832 00:43:41.239 --> 00:43:46.440 notify Deborah of these conditions. Very interesting, But also when 833 00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:51.000 she is in October on October seventh, missing again, they 834 00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:54.320 can't put two and two together. In terms of suspicion. 835 00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:57.119 It seems, well, this is just they bungle of this 836 00:43:57.239 --> 00:43:59.920 whole case. They should have told Bevy when he bailed out, 837 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.639 They should have told when she disappeared. They were specifically 838 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:08.440 told the path the told treat this like just another 839 00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:12.679 missing person's case, which how could anybody with any common 840 00:44:12.760 --> 00:44:13.639 sense think that. 841 00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:18.199 You couple that with David Torus's involvement in this. At 842 00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:23.199 first inadvertently, and then after covertly you say that maybe 843 00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:27.800 this wasn't just accidental, this whole thing with the evidence missing, 844 00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:32.039 key to the evidence room, and also his involvement with 845 00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:36.679 being his best friend remarkably and owning the home. 846 00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:39.480 Yeah, I can't say something I can't prove, and I 847 00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:42.519 can't prove that he did anything with the evidence or 848 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:46.079 that he had any influence or anything like that. I 849 00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:49.760 just have to stay the facts and after our conclusion with. 850 00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:53.519 Him, Yes, I understand. It just seems very suspicious for 851 00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:56.559 me the reader, and I think our audience when they 852 00:44:56.679 --> 00:44:59.360 listen to the facts of this case, it seems quite 853 00:44:59.400 --> 00:45:02.079 a mystery that not only were they not able to 854 00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:05.000 solve any of this, but also that all of this 855 00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:07.159 evidence went suspiciously missing. 856 00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:09.119 Well, all I can do is state the facts, and 857 00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:11.199 if you can add to them two, then you can 858 00:45:11.960 --> 00:45:14.239 think what you want. I think it's kind of not 859 00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:15.760 difficult to come to a conclusion. 860 00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:19.159 Absolutely. You write in the end that your stories played 861 00:45:19.159 --> 00:45:22.719 a small part in stopping Bruce Landel from getting away 862 00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:25.800 with the murder of Deborah Coleander and perhaps other women. 863 00:45:26.320 --> 00:45:30.199 The articles contributed to pressure Bruce Landel to make him 864 00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:34.559 panic and act irrationally, and he wouldn't have gotten these 865 00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:38.039 threatening letters which also pressured him and made him panic, 866 00:45:38.599 --> 00:45:42.480 if not for your incredible articles. And you also read 867 00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:45.480 at the very end you were also alive. You say, 868 00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:48.039 because Bruce Landel is dead. 869 00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:50.960 Yes, I will say that my newspaper articles had a 870 00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:53.480 huge amount to do with him not getting away with 871 00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:56.559 killing Debi Talien. He would have gotten away with it 872 00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:59.400 without my honor. I also think it put a lot 873 00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:02.199 of metal press sure, in fact, Debbie's father who told 874 00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:04.599 me that to put a lot of metal pressure on him. 875 00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:08.559 And I think he acted irrationally when he was stabbing 876 00:46:08.679 --> 00:46:10.719 that point again. I mean, he just he just went 877 00:46:10.840 --> 00:46:13.199 at him. He stabbed him twenty eight times and ended 878 00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:16.400 up stabbing himself. Actually, I would like to think that 879 00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:19.920 my article sort of unbalanced him a little bit more 880 00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:22.920 that that caused his death. I would be happy to 881 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:26.400 take the credit for his guest, whatever extent I had 882 00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:29.400 in that. But the fact that he's dead means that 883 00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:31.880 there's a whole lot of women who are still alive. 884 00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:34.920 You know, when he when he died, that the cops 885 00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:38.239 went to his house that day, and Lieutenant McDonald called 886 00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:40.320 me up and said that, why is your name an 887 00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:43.079 address on a piece of paper in Lindholph House. I 888 00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:45.880 don't know, he said, next to the telephone book down 889 00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:48.440 a notepack. Yet my name and my address is said 890 00:46:48.480 --> 00:46:50.760 what we think that once the charges were dropped he 891 00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:52.480 was going to tell him kill you, you know, to 892 00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:55.239 pay you back. But he died with three or four 893 00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:57.400 days after the charges were drowned, so he didn't have 894 00:46:57.440 --> 00:46:57.880 a chance. 895 00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:00.599 Yeah, extraordinary, ill will thank you, Thank you very much 896 00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:03.480 Jim Ridings for coming on and talking about Murder in 897 00:47:03.559 --> 00:47:06.639 the Fox Valley, the true story of serial killer Bruce Lindell. 898 00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:08.320 For those that might want to take a look at 899 00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:11.079 this and other work. Do you have a website in 900 00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:12.079 any social media? 901 00:47:12.159 --> 00:47:15.079 Do you do? I'm on Facebook and I might say 902 00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:16.400 Jim Writings dot com. 903 00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:19.840 Thank you very much, Jim Ritings, Murder in the Fox Valley, 904 00:47:20.039 --> 00:47:23.519 the True story of serial killer Bruce Lindell. It's been 905 00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:26.320 a fascinating interview. Thank you so much, and you have 906 00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:28.480 a great evening. Good night, Thank you, Dan, you too.