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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer.
Speaker 1: The Nightstalker DTK.
Speaker 4: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 4: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 4: your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. The western suburbs of Chicago were being terrorized
Speaker 5: by a serial rapist and murderer in the nineteen seventies
Speaker 5: and nineteen eighties. Bruce Lingahl was a psychonic rapist and
Speaker 5: killer who prayed on girls and young women for almost
Speaker 5: a decade. He managed to escape detection because he did
Speaker 5: not leave his rape victims alive, but in nineteen eighty
Speaker 5: he kidnapped and raped Deborah Coleander in Aurora, Illinois. She
Speaker 5: escaped before he could murder her, and Lindall finally was
Speaker 5: arrested two months later, just before he was to go
Speaker 5: on trial on charges of kidnapping, rape, and deviate sexual assault.
Speaker 5: Lindall kidnapped and murdered Miss Coleander. Lindall disposed of her
Speaker 5: body and no one could find her the following year
Speaker 5: because the victim did not show up in court. The
Speaker 5: kidnapping and rape charges had to be dropped, and he
Speaker 5: could not be charged with murder without a body. Reporter
Speaker 5: Jim Ridings wrote a number of stories for The Beacon
Speaker 5: News over several months, determined to shine a light to
Speaker 5: try to stop Lindall from getting away with another murder. Suddenly,
Speaker 5: the public knew the truth about this monster who had
Speaker 5: been able to evade justice and public attention. Aurora police
Speaker 5: said Lindell planned to kill Ridings once the judge finally
Speaker 5: dismissed the case, but fortunately, a few days after the
Speaker 5: charges were dropped, Lindell accidentally killed himself while murdering another person.
Speaker 5: The story took another turn nearly forty years after Lindell's death,
Speaker 5: when DNA tests linked Lindell to an unsolved cold case
Speaker 5: murder from nineteen seventy six. Murder in the Fox Valley
Speaker 5: tells the story of Bruce Lindell's terrible crimespree and how
Speaker 5: he finally was stopped. The book they were featuring this
Speaker 5: evening is Murder in the Fox Valley, the true story
Speaker 5: of serial killer Bruce Lindall, with my special guest journalist
Speaker 5: and author Jim Ridings. Welcome to the program and thank
Speaker 5: you for this interview. Jim Ridings, thank you, Dan, thank
Speaker 5: you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book. You
Speaker 5: write that the western suburbs of Chicago were terrorized by
Speaker 5: a serial rapist and murderer in the nineteen seventies and
Speaker 5: early eighties, and you were a reporter and wrote dozens
Speaker 5: of stories for the Beacon News over several months. Let's
Speaker 5: talk about and take us back to June twenty third,
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty Deborah Leander, twenty five year old and the
Speaker 5: Northgate Shopping Center. This is in Aurora, Illinois, around eleven
Speaker 5: in the morning. Tell us, Sue Deborah Coleander is and
Speaker 5: tell us what happens that day.
Speaker 2: Never was a dietitian at the local hospital. She was
Speaker 2: on her way to a gym to work out in
Speaker 2: the morning, as she always did. A man came up
Speaker 2: to her as she was locking up her bicycle. He
Speaker 2: came up and said, could you help me start my car? No,
Speaker 2: she was kind of hesitant about that, but he said,
Speaker 2: all you have to do is put your foot on
Speaker 2: the gas pedal while I worked the engine. So she
Speaker 2: said okay. So she got in the car and then
Speaker 2: he put a sharp object to her neck to Larry
Speaker 2: to move over the girl to his house, who took
Speaker 2: off his belt and looped it around her neck and
Speaker 2: then led her into the house. Then he attacked and
Speaker 2: inperaated her in a most violent manner, which I later
Speaker 2: found out was his style. Afterwards he fell asleep. She
Speaker 2: managed to get out and go to a neighbor's house.
Speaker 2: The Calfs were called and they came to the house
Speaker 2: and they arrested him. The first half on the scene
Speaker 2: was David Torres, who just happened to beat Lindall's best
Speaker 2: friend and he owned that.
Speaker 5: Now because he knew Bruce Lindall, and he told his partner,
Speaker 5: Officer Som that he would deal with him, and so
Speaker 5: they knocked on the door. What was the state of
Speaker 5: Bruce Lindall at that time and what happens as a result.
Speaker 5: What did they find in their search during his arrest.
Speaker 2: Well, they found the gun that he was holding to Deborah.
Speaker 2: They found a bunch of polar Ride pictures that he
Speaker 2: had taken of her, and some other incriminating evidence. He
Speaker 2: didn't seem too from what I could tell, he didn't
Speaker 2: seem too upset of like, you know, what's this all? About,
Speaker 2: you know, especially when he saw his best friend. They
Speaker 2: took him in and booked him and he was held
Speaker 2: in the county jail.
Speaker 5: Now tell us about his efforts to get bail and
Speaker 5: be bonded out. And what about Debra? What does she
Speaker 5: say to police concerning her ordeal and also to her sister,
Speaker 5: especially about the behavior of this person during the assault.
Speaker 2: Debra gave a full report to the police, and she
Speaker 2: told her sister Sue, all about it and that she
Speaker 2: was basically a traumatized by her. But she was determined
Speaker 2: to go to court, even though it was very upsetting.
Speaker 2: She was going to go to court just to see
Speaker 2: that he was put away and didn't do this to
Speaker 2: any other woman.
Speaker 5: So at the same time, she believes she tells her
Speaker 5: sister and she believes that she is safe because he's
Speaker 5: behind bars. She even moves after this rape to another location,
Speaker 5: and you write that there's even she moves closer to
Speaker 5: the hospital. She has a security guard walker to her car.
Speaker 5: So she's recovering from this ordeal, but believes that he's
Speaker 5: in jail. Meanwhile, what happens.
Speaker 2: Now she didn't know this, but she bailed out a
Speaker 2: month after the attack in the July nineteen eight. So
Speaker 2: on October seventh, nineteen eight, she was getting off work
Speaker 2: at the hospital about nine pm and she walked through
Speaker 2: her car and was headed home. She only lived about
Speaker 2: seven blocks away and that's when she got in her
Speaker 2: car and flashed. Anybody's thought.
Speaker 5: Now you write that there was the location where her
Speaker 5: home was, and the idea that maybe she was abducted
Speaker 5: was considered. What about the location was ideal we'll say
Speaker 5: for some sort of an abduction at that location.
Speaker 2: Well, it was an old house divided up into a
Speaker 2: number of apartments and she parked in the back. There
Speaker 2: is the area in the back. It was not well lift,
Speaker 2: there were some bushes. Lindall was hiding in the bushes
Speaker 2: and she got out of the car headed to the
Speaker 2: apartment house. He grabbed her and you know, the details
Speaker 2: we don't know, but he killed her and he took
Speaker 2: her out to a farm field and he buried the body.
Speaker 5: Now, tell us as you write about this Bruce Lindell,
Speaker 5: he was working as a small engines repair instructor in Caneland.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit more about this Bruce Lindell
Speaker 5: and what happens with police in pursuit of the missing
Speaker 5: Deborah Coleander.
Speaker 2: Well, initially the police were told to treat this as
Speaker 2: just another missing person case, which is ridiculous because she
Speaker 2: was a couple of weeks away from going to court
Speaker 2: to testify it against this guy, and all of a
Speaker 2: sudden she vanishes. You've got to be suspicious about that.
Speaker 2: The officers were told just this is just another missing
Speaker 2: person case. She could be any place she might have
Speaker 2: taken off.
Speaker 5: The parents, Viking an artist Coleander, are not reassured by
Speaker 5: the police whatsoever, and immediately travel to Aurora in November
Speaker 5: looking for their daughter. And they say they had little
Speaker 5: help from police, so they hire a private investigator. They
Speaker 5: do as much as they can, or they believe they can,
Speaker 5: and then there is tell us about the response what
Speaker 5: happens as a result of this missing person's case.
Speaker 2: In their regard, police weren't telling them anything and they
Speaker 2: weren't helping them at all, and they felt police weren't
Speaker 2: even doing anything. That's what they felt. To the Beacon
Speaker 2: News to talk to me because I had done a
Speaker 2: few articles about this, and I had known Devor just
Speaker 2: very casually because the year before we both worked at
Speaker 2: local mental health hospital. I was working there undercover to
Speaker 2: find out all the details of all the abuses and
Speaker 2: so on and so forth that went on. So she
Speaker 2: was a dietitian at that mental health center, and then
Speaker 2: then she went to work at the hospital. So they
Speaker 2: asked me if I would help, and I said, I
Speaker 2: said yes. So I kept doing more articles, and these
Speaker 2: articles for the first time Lindall's name was used. He
Speaker 2: was anonymous. That's how I got away with all of
Speaker 2: attacking all these women is because he was not charged,
Speaker 2: like I said, most of the time, and nobody knew
Speaker 2: this at the time. These women just went missing. Most
Speaker 2: of the time there was nobody to be found. He
Speaker 2: was not charged, so he was getting away with it.
Speaker 2: And my articles were the first ones that actually named
Speaker 2: him as obvious suspects in DEBONK. Coleander's disappearance, and I
Speaker 2: mentioned other cases of women who were missing, and I
Speaker 2: think people could add two and two, and suddenly he
Speaker 2: was well known. He got fired from his job when
Speaker 2: he was arrested and spent a month in jail. So
Speaker 2: at the last minute, Caitlin High School needed a small
Speaker 2: enginecy and he applied for it, and of course he
Speaker 2: lied about his background, so they hired him, so he
Speaker 2: was teaching high school. It's small engines.
Speaker 5: You write about also that this Karen Weeks you had
Speaker 5: spoken to her as well. As a result of that
Speaker 5: was disappearance. What did she have to say? And you
Speaker 5: write that these articles started heating up with the newspaper coverage,
Speaker 5: the case began heating up. Was were you pushing? Was
Speaker 5: there some pressure on police as a result of the
Speaker 5: articles that you were writing.
Speaker 2: I think so, but I don't know what that amounted to.
Speaker 2: I know that eventually they put him under surveillance, which
Speaker 2: I didn't know at the time. In fact, I didn't
Speaker 2: know until this year when I did the book.
Speaker 5: This hearing that was supposed to happen. And so the
Speaker 5: articles that you are writing in the Beacon News are
Speaker 5: being published. What kind of pressure is the media effect
Speaker 5: on Bruce Lindall and what does he do the result?
Speaker 2: Well, I think he mostly had an impact on the
Speaker 2: court because when he came up for a preliminary hearing,
Speaker 2: his lawyer said, well, Judge, this woman didn't even care
Speaker 2: enough to show up in court. It's press charges. So
Speaker 2: we asked that the charges be dismissed. By that time,
Speaker 2: the judge and everyone else that seemed on my article
Speaker 2: she was missing. So I think the newspaper covered put
Speaker 2: pressure on the judge and the courts. No, we're not
Speaker 2: going to dismiss the charges. Now, his lawyer filed an
Speaker 2: emotion for a speedy trial, which means it has to
Speaker 2: come to court within one hundred and sixty days or
Speaker 2: if he dismissed. So it kept coming up on two, three,
Speaker 2: four times for preliminary hearing, and the judge kept continuing
Speaker 2: until he had the drummers. And I think the newspaper
Speaker 2: story had a lot to do with that, because in
Speaker 2: any other case, I think the judge would have dismissed
Speaker 2: the case. You know, we don't have a witness to
Speaker 2: to buy against this guy, so we can't dismiss it.
Speaker 5: You talk about her car being finally found February sixteenth,
Speaker 5: when a person came into the newsroom that had been
Speaker 5: following the stories and had recognized the vehicle.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a man came up to my office and said,
Speaker 2: I think we found Debbie's car. You know, I have
Speaker 2: a walk by. It looked like it. I got being
Speaker 2: an article, and it's the same make and model and license.
Speaker 2: And I said, okay, well let's go down and look
Speaker 2: at it. So I went down to the train station
Speaker 2: parking lot with him and it was her car. And
Speaker 2: then I called the police and so pulled him to
Speaker 2: come and get it.
Speaker 5: So I mentioned this Viking coleander. Debra's father hires a
Speaker 5: private investigator, and then that private investigator contacts you in
Speaker 5: January of nineteen eighty one. What does he tell you?
Speaker 5: And then tell us about this anonymous informant? And Byron Marshall.
Speaker 2: Well, the private detective that he hired, talked to me
Speaker 2: in a number of occasions. I think he wanted to
Speaker 2: know what I knew, and I wanted to know what
Speaker 2: he knew. And he had told me some things that
Speaker 2: I didn't publish at the time. I put it in
Speaker 2: the book in twenty twenty two. But Matt nineteen eight
Speaker 2: he knew a couple of Chicago caps that would arrest
Speaker 2: Lindahll on a false charge and take them somewhere and
Speaker 2: beat the information out of them to where Debbie is
Speaker 2: and then they would dispose of Lindall. He would never
Speaker 2: be found. But it didn't happen. Debbie fi didn't know you.
Speaker 5: Write about the State's Attorney Robert Morrow, reviewing the seventy
Speaker 5: five pages of police files and met with Aurora of
Speaker 5: Police Chief Robert Brent and the Chief of Detectives Don McDonald,
Speaker 5: and all efforts to locate Deborah were conducted. There was
Speaker 5: no witness against Lindall at this case, so as you write,
Speaker 5: the charges were dropped. And it's interesting that you wrote
Speaker 5: that you tried to chase him down, you and a
Speaker 5: partner to try to get an interview or a photo,
Speaker 5: I guess, and you have a chapter called Poetic Justice
Speaker 5: April fourth, nineteen eighty one, less than a week later.
Speaker 2: What happens, Well, as far as they're chasing down, he
Speaker 2: was at one of the preliminary hearings and I knew
Speaker 2: they always snuck him in and out the back way.
Speaker 2: He didn't come in normally, so me and our staff photographer,
Speaker 2: we wanted to catch up to him. I wanted to
Speaker 2: talk to We ran down the courthouse steps, we were
Speaker 2: coming out the other way. We chased them for about
Speaker 2: a block or so, and he went into a flower shop.
Speaker 2: By the time we caught up with him, caught up
Speaker 2: with the shop, he was out the back door and
Speaker 2: we lost them, and I thought it was you know,
Speaker 2: why is this is a homicidal maniac, and he's run
Speaker 2: away from me, from him now. On April fourth, Lindall
Speaker 2: went to a bowling alley in Neighborville looking for potential victims.
Speaker 2: He met this eighteen year old boy and somehow he
Speaker 2: convinced the boy to come to his apartment, as this
Speaker 2: a girlfriend's apartment, which was a short distance away. Exactly
Speaker 2: how he did that, exactly what happened, we don't know.
Speaker 2: What we know is inside that apartment, he stabbed the
Speaker 2: boy to death. He stabbed him twenty eight times, and
Speaker 2: in the frenzy of wild they stabbing the boy, one
Speaker 2: of the swings went wild and he hit himself in
Speaker 2: the fine He had a major article and he led
Speaker 2: to death on the.
Speaker 5: You're right, there was poetic justice that this serial rapist
Speaker 5: would die from stab to by his own hand, to
Speaker 5: his growing.
Speaker 2: Yes, sound it was poetic justice.
Speaker 5: It's interesting too, we didn't mention that he had this
Speaker 5: girlfriend that finally realized that the kind of abusive person
Speaker 5: he really was and was trying to leave. Yet trying
Speaker 5: to leave, but she was at the home. She was
Speaker 5: asleep when apparently this attack happened, and awoke to this
Speaker 5: nightmare from some sort of sleep or some kind of
Speaker 5: drug hazed unconsciousness that she was experiencing in the room
Speaker 5: and didn't witness any of the carnage. But police had
Speaker 5: some questions for her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was finally getting wise to who he was
Speaker 2: and what he was because of the newspaper coverage. So
Speaker 2: she moved out of the house and into an apartment
Speaker 2: in Neighborville. He was with her that night. He wasn't
Speaker 2: going to let her go, so she was in her
Speaker 2: bedroom with the door locked. She had been intoxicated that night,
Speaker 2: so she didn't hear what was going on. She sat
Speaker 2: up in the middle of the night to go to
Speaker 2: the bathroom. When she came out of the bathroom, she
Speaker 2: saw these two dead bodies on the floor. He just
Speaker 2: soaked in blood, and then she called the police. The
Speaker 2: police didn't have a lot of questions for her, but
Speaker 2: her story held up. But your foot wasn't lying or
Speaker 2: covering up anything which she told him turned out to be.
Speaker 5: So tell us, Sue Bybroan Marshall is and he called
Speaker 5: you at home to tell you that Lindall was dead.
Speaker 5: So tell us who he is and what else he
Speaker 5: had to say. And you talked to your editor, Mary
Speaker 5: Lou Bassett. So what happens with that conversation.
Speaker 2: Well, Byron Marshall was a stockbroker in Chicago, and he
Speaker 2: also was a skydiver, and so was Lindall. So he
Speaker 2: knew he knew Lindall from the airport and he didn't
Speaker 2: like him. So once Dever disappeared, he started calling me
Speaker 2: with information about Lindall and things like that. And I
Speaker 2: don't know how he knew, but he knew before I
Speaker 2: did that Lindall was dead. He called me in the
Speaker 2: morning and said that Lyndall was dead in this apartment
Speaker 2: and on on so forth. So I called my editor
Speaker 2: and told her and I said, I'm going over there
Speaker 2: right now, and I did, and there were cops all
Speaker 2: over the apartment building. And then I went down to
Speaker 2: the police station and talked to them and got all
Speaker 2: the details.
Speaker 5: You found out that you had a direct effect on
Speaker 5: Bruce Lindaw What did you find out in terms of
Speaker 5: that effect on him?
Speaker 2: My articles exposed him to the public. Key was unknown,
Speaker 2: his name was not known. This was causing him a
Speaker 2: lot of trouble. He wants his job. Friends turned out
Speaker 2: against him. He had told the police that he felt
Speaker 2: personally threatened by me because of my newspaper. By that,
Speaker 2: he thought that I might treditable. He got some anonymous
Speaker 2: threatening letters and took those police and said he thought
Speaker 2: eyesen So I mean he was. He was kind of
Speaker 2: losing a mind out. When he was at the high
Speaker 2: school teaching, he was trying to seduce some young boy
Speaker 2: and h he had a phone call with a boy
Speaker 2: that he caped, and that was illegal eavesdropping. So the
Speaker 2: police came to his to his house deserve a warrant
Speaker 2: for that. He saw them coming, we closed the door.
Speaker 2: He went in the kitchen and pulled a shotgun as
Speaker 2: the police came in. Well, the cops, I guess talked
Speaker 2: him out, talked him into putting the shotgun down, but
Speaker 2: he panicked because he thought the debtor's body had been
Speaker 2: drumped and they were coming to get him. Well, it
Speaker 2: was just a warrant for eavesdropping.
Speaker 5: So how do police proceed with this investigation?
Speaker 2: I don't know that they did much because you know,
Speaker 2: in a way, they couldn't do much. They didn't have
Speaker 2: a body, they didn't have a witness, they didn't have evidence.
Speaker 2: They could have searched his house, they could have searched
Speaker 2: his car, which they did after he died, and found
Speaker 2: evidence here and newspaper with depor's name on it in
Speaker 2: the trunk of his car. They could have done that,
Speaker 2: but they didn't. They didn't do They didn't do a
Speaker 2: whole lot. Once the depper disappeared, now they had him
Speaker 2: under surveillance. But well, they had him under surveillance.
Speaker 5: Now, let's find out what you find out with your
Speaker 5: basic your investigation. And so many people spoke to you,
Speaker 5: and you talk about that in twenty nineteen, Detective loud
Speaker 5: And speaks to you about Pamela Mauer. Let's talk about
Speaker 5: the idea that there was other victims and your research
Speaker 5: into that idea.
Speaker 2: Well, once Lindell died, I had already done some articles
Speaker 2: about women and young young teenage girls who had gone missing,
Speaker 2: and it kind of done on me. I wonder if
Speaker 2: he had anything to do with this. So I did
Speaker 2: a couple more articles than that, and I talked to
Speaker 2: police chiefs in other towns, and it kind of all
Speaker 2: of these disappearances kind of fit the same pattern, and
Speaker 2: they kind of fit new pair. So I asked the
Speaker 2: question back in nineteen eighty one, after he died, did
Speaker 2: he do these. Nothing came of that until twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: Detective of Chris Louden of the Lyle Police Department was
Speaker 2: looking into a coold case he had seen that had
Speaker 2: been answers in DNA technology and he wondered if DNA
Speaker 2: could help him in his nineteen seventy sixteen so he
Speaker 2: did a lot of investigating on his own. He said,
Speaker 2: when he was in the Kendall County Coroner's office, he
Speaker 2: saw a file with a whole bunch of articles of
Speaker 2: mind Lindall, so he kind of focused on Lindall. He
Speaker 2: interviewed Lindall to brother, who was not that cooperative. But
Speaker 2: the more he got into it, he thought Lindall might
Speaker 2: be the man. So he wanted some DNA from Glendall.
Speaker 2: He asked brother for DNA, he said no. He said, okay,
Speaker 2: I can I have permission to exhume the body and
Speaker 2: get DNA. Said no, So he went to got a
Speaker 2: cord or to exhume the Lindof body and he did,
Speaker 2: and he got DNA and it was a match.
Speaker 5: You talk about the role of genetic genealogy in this
Speaker 5: as well. Further advances in DNA that helped solve the
Speaker 5: Golden State killer case. Tell us about that those advances
Speaker 5: and his relation to this, well, that's.
Speaker 2: Kind of technical. Come up with all kinds of new
Speaker 2: technology pinpointing people and ancestry and native origin and even
Speaker 2: specific genes and specific families. And they when they compared
Speaker 2: the DNA of the chiller from nineteen seventy six to
Speaker 2: Lindell DNA that came up at the match, and they
Speaker 2: found out he's the one who killed this sixteen year
Speaker 2: old old girl in nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 5: Tell us about the investigation into the death of Pamela Mauer,
Speaker 5: and tell us about her death.
Speaker 2: She was sixteen and it was nineteen seventy six. She
Speaker 2: was at some friends' house and she was going to
Speaker 2: leave and walk to McDonald's and get a coke like that.
Speaker 2: So she left the house and she wasn't seen again
Speaker 2: until someone found her body alongside of the road and
Speaker 2: the next morning she had been great and strangle. The
Speaker 2: thing about that is A detective at the time was
Speaker 2: named Ken Wilbert. He went to a bunch of apartment
Speaker 2: houses in Woodridge to ask questions about people, if they
Speaker 2: saw then if they heard anything. He knocked on one
Speaker 2: woman's door and said she said, yeah, her screams coming
Speaker 2: from the apartment Lindall's department. Last name, Okay, So he
Speaker 2: went to Lindall's apartment. Lindall said, yeah, we were having
Speaker 2: a party, and that's that. That's all the investigating he did.
Speaker 2: If he had looked into a little bit more, he
Speaker 2: might have found out that Lindall not only killed this
Speaker 2: young woman, but would kill the whole bunch of other
Speaker 2: young women because he had been caught a few times
Speaker 2: with women who were bleeding or women who had made
Speaker 2: accuvations against him, but nothing ever came to that. So
Speaker 2: this detective just sort of fell down on the job.
Speaker 2: All the women who chilled after nineteen seventy six could
Speaker 2: have been alive if he had done his job.
Speaker 5: So when did they finally get the confirmation of Pamela
Speaker 5: mar and Bruce Lindall's involvement.
Speaker 2: That wasn't until Chris Louden in the Lyle Police Department
Speaker 2: sent the DNA off to a lab and that was
Speaker 2: in late twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1: Now, with that.
Speaker 5: Confirmation, you you write that there was other jurisdictions obviously
Speaker 5: interested in Bruce Lindell potentially what kinds of numbers are
Speaker 5: we looking at realistically that he is suspected in being
Speaker 5: involved with murders and rapes.
Speaker 2: It's kind of hard to tell because at least a dozen,
Speaker 2: I'm certain more. But it's hard to tell because the
Speaker 2: women went missing. In many cases their bodies have not
Speaker 2: been found, so how are you going to link there?
Speaker 2: And if they did find a body today, Lindell DNA
Speaker 2: would not be honest anymore. So, I mean, you know
Speaker 2: some people have said, you know a difarity. Well, I
Speaker 2: don't know about that, but we just don't know.
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Speaker 5: That's true Murder and talkspace dot com. Now, when we
Speaker 5: last spoke, we were talking about the DNA had solved
Speaker 5: the the Pamela maur case, other jurisdictions were inquiring about
Speaker 5: Bruce Lindall he suspected, and other murders and other rapes
Speaker 5: you chronicle in this book, so many other similar mos
Speaker 5: and even signatures of Bruce Lendell. It seemed to be
Speaker 5: correspond with some of the crimes that you chronicle in
Speaker 5: this book rapes, and again some people got away. Fortunately,
Speaker 5: the idea that this could happen. You outline how this
Speaker 5: could possibly happen and the cooperation it received from many
Speaker 5: police departments. However, not in Aurora so much. Tell us
Speaker 5: about your investigation or your at least look into David
Speaker 5: Taurus and the what we can only call is the
Speaker 5: Aurora Police Department not doing their job.
Speaker 2: The police and other jurisdictions cooperated with me when I
Speaker 2: when I ask questions, but they didn't court coordinate among themselves.
Speaker 2: If they had, they might have seen some of the
Speaker 2: similarities in the chases they had. As far as David
Speaker 2: Torris goes, he's kind of a question mark. He was
Speaker 2: Lindolph's best friend. They went out together all the time,
Speaker 2: they went skydiving. Now today he says he didn't know
Speaker 2: anything about but I don't know how he could not
Speaker 2: have known something was up with Linda.
Speaker 5: In terms of his role in the investigation, you write
Speaker 5: that the reports about the crimes itself were kept from
Speaker 5: a certain detective or a certain officer, and you speculate
Speaker 5: that that certainly must have been David Torres, and for
Speaker 5: the police to not trust him with those police files
Speaker 5: sort of seems to indicate that he might have been
Speaker 5: prone to interfere on behalf of his friend.
Speaker 2: Well, that's what Byron Marshall told me, But David Torres
Speaker 2: told me that he didn't. Yeah, the police kept the
Speaker 2: file away from them, but they were still crying.
Speaker 5: What about a net Lazar tell us about her and
Speaker 5: her the crime perpetrated against her, and that investigation into
Speaker 5: the likelihood that Bruce Lindau was involved.
Speaker 2: Well, I was just going to get into that. More
Speaker 2: than a year before De colly Anders attacked a Net,
Speaker 2: Lazar was walking to the friend's house and Lindall said, hey,
Speaker 2: come on over, you know. So she went over to
Speaker 2: his house. He got her to come in, he pulled
Speaker 2: a gun on her and he took to get a
Speaker 2: Bettermann attacked her in the same just the same way
Speaker 2: he did with Debbie. She might have been killed too,
Speaker 2: except she was smart. She started to flatter him and say,
Speaker 2: hands him and there's my number, and you call me again. Well,
Speaker 2: his whole personality changed then, from a vicious, mean person
Speaker 2: that all of a sudden it came nice. Okay, Well
Speaker 2: she was just saying that so she could get out,
Speaker 2: and she did. She went to the police. And who
Speaker 2: was the investigating officer, David Torres who owned the house,
Speaker 2: David Torres, who is lindoff best friend, David Trres. David
Speaker 2: Tauris questioned her as if she was the guilty party.
Speaker 2: He said, look at this. Your name and number is
Speaker 2: on this piece of paper. You gave this to him.
Speaker 2: Why did you do that? She said, to save my life,
Speaker 2: That's why I did it. The police would not, I
Speaker 2: guess they didn't believe her, or they didn't pursue it.
Speaker 2: If they had, we might have been put in jail,
Speaker 2: and Debbie Collinander would be alive, and a whole bunch
Speaker 2: of other women would be alive. But the police wouldn't
Speaker 2: wouldn't pursue it.
Speaker 5: You write about her undergarments not being tested versus Pamela
Speaker 5: Maurs under pants being tested forty three years later. Tell
Speaker 5: us what you write about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another insane thing. They say, well, you know
Speaker 2: this happened like eight hours ago. The evidence on your
Speaker 2: panties would not be any good anymore, too old. And
Speaker 2: I thought, well, wait a minute, Pamela Mawer panties were
Speaker 2: still good after forty three years. Why would it be
Speaker 2: an an a net not be any good the same day.
Speaker 2: It just shows they didn't want to pursue this. And
Speaker 2: I don't know how much influenced her is at but
Speaker 2: maybe he had influence. Maybe the police just didn't want
Speaker 2: one of their own to look bad. I don't know.
Speaker 5: We didn't write about Debra Coleander's remains being finally found
Speaker 5: in April twenty seventh of nineteen eighty two, and they
Speaker 5: brought in a prestigious and prominent forensic scientist who had
Speaker 5: worked on the John Wayne Gacy case, among others. What
Speaker 5: did they find? What did he find in terms of
Speaker 5: the determination of the cause of death, any other thing
Speaker 5: that might be evidentiary for police.
Speaker 2: Well, they did not find the cause of death. There
Speaker 2: were no bullet holes, there were no stab wounds, there
Speaker 2: was no broken bones or skull or anything. So he
Speaker 2: probably just a strangled to death. That would be the
Speaker 2: quietest and least messy way of killing her behind her
Speaker 2: apartment covering that night, so there was no cause of death.
Speaker 2: But the police did look in the trunk of his car.
Speaker 2: Finally they found the pairs belonging to Debbie, so the
Speaker 2: obviously transported her. In the trunk, they found some newspapers
Speaker 2: and mail with Debbie's name on it, which means that
Speaker 2: Lindall was in her apartment that was waiting for her
Speaker 2: finding out which apartment choosing, and they pretty much it's
Speaker 2: obvious he did it. Nobody else could have done.
Speaker 5: You right of all kinds of similar occurrences that seemed
Speaker 5: to be related to Bruce Lindau, and also that a
Speaker 5: couple of characters named Charles Nichols and Jerry Lindall his brother.
Speaker 5: What information did they give you? Were they cooperative at all?
Speaker 2: Charles Nichols was cooperative. He was also one of Lyndall's
Speaker 2: best friends, but he eventually woke up and kind of
Speaker 2: turned against them, and he talked to me a bit.
Speaker 2: Lindall's brother, of course, would not talk.
Speaker 5: What about Patricia Perkins you had asked to speak to her.
Speaker 5: What do you think of her role in this and
Speaker 5: the idea that she was oblivious to the things that
Speaker 5: he was up to.
Speaker 2: I think she just she met him and fell in
Speaker 2: love with him, and they moved in. And when she
Speaker 2: went to work every day, which Lindall free to seek
Speaker 2: out women and attack them, I think she was just
Speaker 2: blind that was going on. But once the newspaper articles
Speaker 2: started about him, she was kind of waking up herself,
Speaker 2: and that's when she moved to Naperville to her own apartment.
Speaker 5: You say that Nichols always suspected Bruce of the murders.
Speaker 2: I think he had an idea. I think he had
Speaker 2: an idea that he was guilty of the Eventually it
Speaker 2: kind of gone.
Speaker 5: On, you write in this book too. You titled it
Speaker 5: the Making of a Monster. Bruce was born in nineteen
Speaker 5: fifty three in Saint Charles, Illinois. His father was Jerome
Speaker 5: and his mother was Arlene, and he had three other siblings,
Speaker 5: and his parents soon divorced and he lived with his
Speaker 5: father with his brother Jerry. Tell us what you found
Speaker 5: in terms of his behavior and some events in his
Speaker 5: early life.
Speaker 2: Well, he and his father did not get a law.
Speaker 2: They hated one another. He moved out when he was
Speaker 2: a senior in high school. And lived with a family
Speaker 2: of a friend. Some people might say, well, you know,
Speaker 2: his traumatic upbringing, the divorce and all this might might
Speaker 2: have caused this. I don't buy that for a minute.
Speaker 2: A lot of people get divorced and their kids don't
Speaker 2: turn into psychic tours. You know, this was all on him.
Speaker 5: You did write more about David Taurus and the idea
Speaker 5: that he was more involved than anyone could ever imagine.
Speaker 5: Tell us what you wrote about the potential of his involvement.
Speaker 2: The potential, I mean, who knows what the potential could
Speaker 2: have been. Could have been a lot, It could have
Speaker 2: been what he says. He's still alive and denying that
Speaker 2: he had anything to do with anything, and he didn't
Speaker 2: know that he was doing this. But once Lindall was dead,
Speaker 2: you know, he was asked, do you think could have
Speaker 2: been a serial killer? And he said, yeah, yeah, I do. Well,
Speaker 2: how come you didn't think that when he was alive.
Speaker 5: But you're right about this airport and the idea that
Speaker 5: his car was seen at the airport, that he couldn't
Speaker 5: have another vehicle. What of this idea of yours?
Speaker 2: Well, this is something I didn't know until a few
Speaker 2: months ago, before I finished the book, I had found
Speaker 2: out that the police said Lindall under surveillance they were following,
Speaker 2: and I didn't know that. And I also didn't know
Speaker 2: until I talked to a tourists this summer and he
Speaker 2: told me that it's one time when they were skydiving,
Speaker 2: and when they finished skydiving, Lindall said, you know, could
Speaker 2: you give me right home? Said okay, I will, And
Speaker 2: you know what, I'm not feeling too that, I'm just
Speaker 2: going to lay down, see okay, go ahead. And then
Speaker 2: according to Torres, they said once they once they left
Speaker 2: the airport, they sort of done on him that Lyndall
Speaker 2: was hiding in the back seat to evade someone. I
Speaker 2: didn't know who they were, who he was evading. I mean,
Speaker 2: he could have figured it out he was a cap.
Speaker 2: Lindall was a suspect. But then it sort of dawned
Speaker 2: on me, okay, that that would have been the night
Speaker 2: he choked Debbie Commander, because if he was being watched
Speaker 2: the whole time, and the cops were sitting watching his
Speaker 2: car at the airport and he gets away, they're still
Speaker 2: sitting there watching his car and he gets away, that
Speaker 2: was the one night he had when he wasn't being watched,
Speaker 2: and that would be the night that he choked Debbie.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that until now, and I sort of
Speaker 2: figured that out after the cars told me that he
Speaker 2: helped him get away.
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Speaker 5: Now with that idea in mind, and you you write
Speaker 5: that he is suspected in so many rapes and murders
Speaker 5: that seem to have his signature and MO written all
Speaker 5: over them. What of police linking him to other murders
Speaker 5: and other rapes using as you write about the Parabon
Speaker 5: nanolabs and their breakthroughs in genetic genealogy.
Speaker 2: Well, I know some police departments are looking into old cases,
Speaker 2: and of course they won't talk about that until they
Speaker 2: have something. But the problem with that is you have
Speaker 2: to have the DNA of the victim and the DNA
Speaker 2: of the suspect. A lot of these victims don't exist.
Speaker 2: They ad bodies were not found with the other victims.
Speaker 2: They don't have the DNA of the suspect. So I
Speaker 2: don't know what the likelihood is of solving any more
Speaker 2: gold cases. I think this was solved in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: They announced it in early twenty twenty. That's been quite
Speaker 2: a while. They've got the Lindell DNA because they dug
Speaker 2: up his body. I think if they could have solved
Speaker 2: any of these cases, they were done it by now.
Speaker 5: You write that you obtained the Bruce Lindell file from
Speaker 5: Aurora Police Department in twenty twenty two through the Freedom
Speaker 5: of Information Act. You wrote that it is surprisingly slim,
Speaker 5: unlike hundreds of pages from police departments in Naperville, Lislow, Woodridge,
Speaker 5: and Downer's Growth. Tell us what your deduction is. Your
Speaker 5: conclusion is in terms of this investigation by Aurora Police department.
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot that I know that they didn't
Speaker 2: give me. One example is when they came to his
Speaker 2: house to serve the warrant for illegal news dropping and
Speaker 2: he pulled a shot down out. That report was not
Speaker 2: given to me. And I know it exists because I
Speaker 2: had it at the time nineteen eighty one and I
Speaker 2: did a story about it in ninetety one, so I
Speaker 2: know it exists, but they didn't give it to me.
Speaker 2: There has to be a file on surveillance. They didn't
Speaker 2: give that to me. Somebody else. A couple of other
Speaker 2: people told me about it, but that was not in
Speaker 2: the file. It was very slim, hardly any any information
Speaker 2: at all. And when you think of the other police departments,
Speaker 2: Downers Grow, for example, hundreds of pages, Neighborville, hundreds of pages.
Speaker 2: They had everything they had on because they're supposed to
Speaker 2: you file a Freedom of Information Act request, they're supposed
Speaker 2: to give it to you.
Speaker 5: Chris Louden was very vocal about his opinion about this,
Speaker 5: and he used the word cover up. Tell us what
Speaker 5: he had to say regarding that. And you also talk
Speaker 5: about police reports for Annette Lazarre in seventy nine and
Speaker 5: Deborah Coleander in nineteen eighty. Just some discrepancies that you noticed,
Speaker 5: and what did you make of that?
Speaker 2: Well, actually both attacks were quite similar. With a net,
Speaker 2: they just totally discounted it. They didn't believer at all.
Speaker 2: With Devor, they did believer. They came and arrested them.
Speaker 2: Obviously they had them with the goods, the gun and
Speaker 2: the photographs and all that. You know, if they had
Speaker 2: surveillance on Lindahl, they should have had it. They should
Speaker 2: have especially had it on Debbie because because she was
Speaker 2: the one who would have been attacked, he could always
Speaker 2: get away what she did. But they should have been
Speaker 2: watching her too.
Speaker 5: You have a chapter called Questions Remain What do you
Speaker 5: talk about accomplices potentially?
Speaker 2: What do you discuss He was involved in a whole
Speaker 2: lot of folks. He had hundreds of photographs of naked women.
Speaker 2: Some looked willing, most looked either intoxicated or terrified. Now
Speaker 2: these there's too many for all of them to beat
Speaker 2: his victim. But the police said that, you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of these types of people, they will swamp photos.
Speaker 2: And he may have even been involved in the child
Speaker 2: pornography too, which you know, we don't know for certain
Speaker 2: because you know, by the time that came out, he
Speaker 2: was dead. I don't know if I don't think he
Speaker 2: had any accomplices, not that I know of, but who knows.
Speaker 5: You write very interestingly about David Taurus, and we mentioned
Speaker 5: about having this surprisingly lack of evidence that they restored
Speaker 5: or they retained, I should say. But also a very
Speaker 5: interesting fact that you mentioned is David Torres had a
Speaker 5: key to the evidence room. Would you like to discuss that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he did, now he says, I didn't have that
Speaker 2: until I became the sergeant in nineteen ninety four, but
Speaker 2: I would have no cause to dispose of any evidence.
Speaker 2: But evidence was disposed of the photographs that Lindolph took
Speaker 2: of Debbie call Lander, the gun he used, and so
Speaker 2: all that's missing. And the detective Chris Loudon said, you know,
Speaker 2: you're supposed to achieve that evidence, especially when they're a
Speaker 2: homicide and it's all gone. I don't know what happened
Speaker 2: to it, but it's gone.
Speaker 5: You're right about in the follow up about the Beacon News,
Speaker 5: the articles, the effect and also what it led to.
Speaker 5: Inadvertently or you were part of having the Pamela Mauer
Speaker 5: case salved, which led to more interest in Bruce Lindell
Speaker 5: and potentially other crimes that me he may have commit.
Speaker 5: Tell us you write about in terms of this overall
Speaker 5: effect of the Beacon News, your articles and your involvement.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the Beacon News had a huge impact
Speaker 2: on this because if it wasn't for all these articles
Speaker 2: that I did, the chase against Diver Collander would have
Speaker 2: been dismissed at the first hearing and nothing would have
Speaker 2: been made of anything. It was the newspaper article that
Speaker 2: put his name in the public eye and people knew
Speaker 2: about him, and suddenly his neighbors, the people at the
Speaker 2: high school, they all knew about him. And that was
Speaker 2: the worst thing that could happen to a guy like that.
Speaker 2: He operated under the secrecy where people didn't know who
Speaker 2: he was. That's how he could get women and attack women.
Speaker 2: Suddenly they knew who he was. And then once he died,
Speaker 2: articles mentioned other potential victims in other towns, and that
Speaker 2: sort of put the cops on alert to look some
Speaker 2: of these cases. But that was in nineteen eighty one.
Speaker 2: Nothing happened, and again it would have needed DNA, which
Speaker 2: actually may exist. They did not have any being being
Speaker 2: any technology. I like to tell you was somebody's blood tank.
Speaker 2: That was it.
Speaker 5: You're right about the broken system and the problem with
Speaker 5: rape cases inherently. Can you discuss that well.
Speaker 2: Especially in those days, when a woman made an accusation,
Speaker 2: especially if she went to court, she was put on
Speaker 2: trial more than the attack. Right, the lawyers could ask
Speaker 2: what about your background? Do you have sex a lot?
Speaker 2: Do you? Did you ask for it? What was wearing?
Speaker 2: On the other hand, they couldn't question the suspect at all.
Speaker 2: First of all, if he declined to take the stand
Speaker 2: in his own defense, then they couldn't ask him anything.
Speaker 2: But even if they did, even if he did take
Speaker 2: the stand, and they couldn't ask about any of his background,
Speaker 2: they couldn't even ask about any any time. He couldn't
Speaker 2: charge the many so he had he had more rights
Speaker 2: than the victim did, which you know it caused a
Speaker 2: lot of women not to want to go to court.
Speaker 5: And what do you think can be learned from this case?
Speaker 5: I mean, obviously then you're saying is more thorough police
Speaker 5: and investigation, But you also are critical of the court's
Speaker 5: decision and question how it was that the judge had
Speaker 5: no information, he didn't have a criminal record at that
Speaker 5: time with his first bail that he was released on
Speaker 5: with for four thousand dollars. But that was a crucial
Speaker 5: moment in his criminal career. What about the judge not
Speaker 5: knowing enough information from the basic charge itself in order
Speaker 5: to realize that this person might be dangerous and warrant
Speaker 5: no bond.
Speaker 2: Well, this is an initial attack. When he was held
Speaker 2: in jail for Jemi count Leander, he was let out
Speaker 2: on only four thousand dollars bail. I mean that's a
Speaker 2: If you look at the police report on this, which
Speaker 2: I have, it was an especially vicious attack. No judge
Speaker 2: should have well, I mean they should have said no bail.
Speaker 2: But they led him out on bail. And then after
Speaker 2: Jenny disappeared and the Caps came to his house and
Speaker 2: he pulled a shot down, he was let out I
Speaker 2: think the next day on three hundred and fifty dollars bail.
Speaker 2: Now that I can't say the judge didn't know. The
Speaker 2: judge would have to know because the state's attorney would
Speaker 2: have presented him this is a dangerous man. He viciously
Speaker 2: assolved with this woman. She disappeared. We suspect he had
Speaker 2: something to do with it. He's a dangerous man. And
Speaker 2: he pulled a check out on caps. This is a
Speaker 2: dangerous man. And the judge said, okay, the bailout. I mean,
Speaker 2: the judge would have had to have known. Now, even
Speaker 2: if even it wasn't convicted of these things, just the
Speaker 2: facts of the case, the state's attorney would would have
Speaker 2: told judgement and asking to deny bail. But I don't
Speaker 2: see how the judge could not have known. And the
Speaker 2: judge gets the newspaper, so he would have seen all
Speaker 2: this in the newspaper as well.
Speaker 5: It's incredible to the after he's bailed out, they don't
Speaker 5: notify Deborah of these conditions. Very interesting, But also when
Speaker 5: she is in October on October seventh, missing again, they
Speaker 5: can't put two and two together. In terms of suspicion.
Speaker 2: It seems, well, this is just they bungle of this
Speaker 2: whole case. They should have told Bevy when he bailed out,
Speaker 2: They should have told when she disappeared. They were specifically
Speaker 2: told the path the told treat this like just another
Speaker 2: missing person's case, which how could anybody with any common
Speaker 2: sense think that.
Speaker 5: You couple that with David Torus's involvement in this. At
Speaker 5: first inadvertently, and then after covertly you say that maybe
Speaker 5: this wasn't just accidental, this whole thing with the evidence missing,
Speaker 5: key to the evidence room, and also his involvement with
Speaker 5: being his best friend remarkably and owning the home.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't say something I can't prove, and I
Speaker 2: can't prove that he did anything with the evidence or
Speaker 2: that he had any influence or anything like that. I
Speaker 2: just have to stay the facts and after our conclusion with.
Speaker 5: Him, Yes, I understand. It just seems very suspicious for
Speaker 5: me the reader, and I think our audience when they
Speaker 5: listen to the facts of this case, it seems quite
Speaker 5: a mystery that not only were they not able to
Speaker 5: solve any of this, but also that all of this
Speaker 5: evidence went suspiciously missing.
Speaker 2: Well, all I can do is state the facts, and
Speaker 2: if you can add to them two, then you can
Speaker 2: think what you want. I think it's kind of not
Speaker 2: difficult to come to a conclusion.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. You write in the end that your stories played
Speaker 5: a small part in stopping Bruce Landel from getting away
Speaker 5: with the murder of Deborah Coleander and perhaps other women.
Speaker 5: The articles contributed to pressure Bruce Landel to make him
Speaker 5: panic and act irrationally, and he wouldn't have gotten these
Speaker 5: threatening letters which also pressured him and made him panic,
Speaker 5: if not for your incredible articles. And you also read
Speaker 5: at the very end you were also alive. You say,
Speaker 5: because Bruce Landel is dead.
Speaker 2: Yes, I will say that my newspaper articles had a
Speaker 2: huge amount to do with him not getting away with
Speaker 2: killing Debi Talien. He would have gotten away with it
Speaker 2: without my honor. I also think it put a lot
Speaker 2: of metal press sure, in fact, Debbie's father who told
Speaker 2: me that to put a lot of metal pressure on him.
Speaker 2: And I think he acted irrationally when he was stabbing
Speaker 2: that point again. I mean, he just he just went
Speaker 2: at him. He stabbed him twenty eight times and ended
Speaker 2: up stabbing himself. Actually, I would like to think that
Speaker 2: my article sort of unbalanced him a little bit more
Speaker 2: that that caused his death. I would be happy to
Speaker 2: take the credit for his guest, whatever extent I had
Speaker 2: in that. But the fact that he's dead means that
Speaker 2: there's a whole lot of women who are still alive.
Speaker 2: You know, when he when he died, that the cops
Speaker 2: went to his house that day, and Lieutenant McDonald called
Speaker 2: me up and said that, why is your name an
Speaker 2: address on a piece of paper in Lindholph House. I
Speaker 2: don't know, he said, next to the telephone book down
Speaker 2: a notepack. Yet my name and my address is said
Speaker 2: what we think that once the charges were dropped he
Speaker 2: was going to tell him kill you, you know, to
Speaker 2: pay you back. But he died with three or four
Speaker 2: days after the charges were drowned, so he didn't have
Speaker 2: a chance.
Speaker 5: Yeah, extraordinary, ill will thank you, Thank you very much
Speaker 5: Jim Ridings for coming on and talking about Murder in
Speaker 5: the Fox Valley, the true story of serial killer Bruce Lindell.
Speaker 5: For those that might want to take a look at
Speaker 5: this and other work. Do you have a website in
Speaker 5: any social media?
Speaker 2: Do you do? I'm on Facebook and I might say
Speaker 2: Jim Writings dot com.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Jim Ritings, Murder in the Fox Valley,
Speaker 5: the True story of serial killer Bruce Lindell. It's been
Speaker 5: a fascinating interview. Thank you so much, and you have
Speaker 5: a great evening. Good night, Thank you, Dan, you too.