WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.399 You make time to move, to breathe, to check your stamina, 2 00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:06.480 your sleep, your steps. But when did you last look 3 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:09.400 at health insurance for you or those you care about? 4 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:13.560 With the Health Insurance Authority Comparison tool, you can. It's quick, 5 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:17.559 free and completely impartial. Compare every health insurance plan and 6 00:00:17.559 --> 00:00:20.719 find the right cover for you. The Health Insurance Authority 7 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:25.960 time online spent well, make your next click count HATEAE. 8 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:28.800 The Health Insurance Authority is a regulatory body under the 9 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:29.679 Government of Ireland. 10 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:33.880 Oh hey, it's your cousin three thousand miles away checking 11 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:36.719 in to see if your house is on fire, ali Ward, 12 00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:40.920 Except in this case, I'm the cousin's cousin, and everyone 13 00:00:40.960 --> 00:00:42.759 is texting me to ask if my house is on fire, 14 00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:46.600 and it is covered in cinders, and it's raining down ashes, 15 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:49.640 and where about a mile or so as the crow 16 00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:53.920 flies or as the embers drift from the evacuation line 17 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:56.320 of the wildfire that's raging in La right now. They're 18 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:59.399 eating fire near Pasadena. And this week I've been in 19 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:01.359 Las Vega this last few days on a business shrip, 20 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:06.200 and I've been like up all night, feverishly refreshing. The 21 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:09.799 watch Duty app for updates on the fire spread. Meanwhile, 22 00:01:09.799 --> 00:01:13.120 my husband, Jarrett, your pod mother, has been like packing 23 00:01:13.159 --> 00:01:16.400 up our passports and our birth certificates and our baby, 24 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:20.200 who's a twelve year old dog, and he's been staying 25 00:01:20.280 --> 00:01:22.439 with friends here and there until the winds died down 26 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:25.319 a little bit. But we're back home and most of 27 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.359 our neighbors on our street have evacuated. The air is 28 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:31.799 very heavy with smoke from like a thousand or so 29 00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:34.120 homes a few miles away that were lost in Altadena. 30 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:36.920 I haven't slept much at all the last couple of days, 31 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:39.719 and the winds are picking back up tonight, and at 32 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:43.439 press time there's zero percite containment on the nearby to 33 00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:47.159 us eating fire. And then the Pacific Palisades fire is 34 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:51.239 barely contained and it's growing, and fires are starting and 35 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:55.319 smoldering all over La. I have a nasty smoke headache, 36 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:58.079 and so I'm giving you this very relevant encore. 37 00:01:58.159 --> 00:01:59.319 While I catch my breath. 38 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.879 How firestart, why they're getting worse, and how indigenous knowledge 39 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:07.959 and fire management differs from what we have going on 40 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:10.240 right now. And then at the end there's a very 41 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:13.560 relevant twenty twenty five secret about something that has made 42 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:17.080 me cry several times today, which is very spooky. Okay, 43 00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:20.159 here we go. The CDC has a bunch of recommendations 44 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:22.360 about dealing with the smoke, which will link in the 45 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:24.319 show notes for this episode. But in case you can't 46 00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:27.800 stay indoors hopefully with an aeror filter running, we thought 47 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:31.080 we'd highlight what the CDC has to say about masks. Quote, 48 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:35.479 don't rely on dust masks for protection. Paper comfort or 49 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:39.360 dust masks commonly found in hardware stores trap large particles 50 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:41.879 such as sawdust, but these masks will not protect to 51 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:44.520 you or your lungs from smoke. So an N ninety 52 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:48.840 five mask properly worn will offer some protection, So bust 53 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:51.039 out those N ninety fives if you are somewhere with 54 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:54.159 smoke right now. Also, speaking of health, another reason why 55 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:57.080 I'm running this mega episode is I've been dealing with 56 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:00.960 some health stuff and I will talk about it in 57 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:03.360 this mega secret at the end of this mega episode. 58 00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:05.120 If you care, if you make it all the way there, 59 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:08.400 but take care of yourselves and please enjoy this mega 60 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:12.680 encore double feature of fire ecology and Indigenous fire ecology. 61 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:17.840 Hem Oh hey, it's the pair of sunglasses that you 62 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:20.479 leave in the car that's scratched. It's not your favorite, 63 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:22.840 but it's better than nothing. In a pitch ali ward 64 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:26.879 back with a piping hot episode of ologies. It's top 65 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:29.759 of mind for a lot of us out here up 66 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:33.120 here in the Northern Hemisphere, especially toward the west of 67 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:40.000 the continent. Wildfires, fire ecology, blazing infurnos, apocalyptic nightmares. This 68 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:44.000 ologist so special got his bachelor's in zoology, a master's 69 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:47.639 in wildlife ecology, and a PhD in Wildlife ecology Statistics, 70 00:03:47.919 --> 00:03:51.120 all from the University of Wisconsin and Madison. He is 71 00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:56.840 currently a Wildlife and Terrestrial Ecosystems research ecologist. Such a mouthful. 72 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:00.199 He's a research scientist at the US Department of Agriculture's 73 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:03.520 Forest Service, also an adjunct professor at the University of 74 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:06.919 New Mexico. He has been published on papers about fire 75 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:13.039 refuges for wildlife, where they hide out, megafires, habitat loss. 76 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:16.800 He's also just casually the editor at the Association of 77 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:20.199 Fire Ecology, so I've been following him online for a while. 78 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:24.399 I reached out to casually ask him about pyrology versus 79 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:27.519 fire ecology, and before I knew it, I was begging 80 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:29.639 him to talk to me. So we hopped onto chat 81 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:33.399 while fires were raging in the West this week and 82 00:04:33.480 --> 00:04:36.160 I was in a muggy Florida hotel room for work 83 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:39.079 and it smelled like a turtle tank. But before we 84 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:41.399 dive into the conversation, I want to thank everyone at 85 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:44.399 patreon dot com slash Ologies. It costs a dollar a 86 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:47.600 month to join and then you can submit questions to theologists. 87 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:51.120 Thank you to everyone listening and making us the number 88 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:55.120 one podcast in the science category on Spotify, And thank 89 00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:57.680 you for leaving reviews on Apple Podcasts to get us 90 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.480 seen by other people. I truly read them all because 91 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:02.480 I desperately want to make a show that does not suck, 92 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:04.160 and to prove it, I'm going to read you a 93 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:08.920 still glowing coal of assessment from Bert Lancaster, who wrote 94 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:13.439 Ologies is your cynicism Antidote. I simultaneously feel beautifully tiny 95 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:16.680 and so expansive that I could burst after listening. Sometimes 96 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:18.439 I just have to stand there and laugh to myself 97 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:21.560 for a while. Sometimes I cry. Emotions are weird. Love 98 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:25.360 you dad word, Bert Lancaster, get a hanky, because your 99 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:28.319 internet dad right here loves you right back. Okay, everyone 100 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:31.399 who left to review, I read it I love you also, Okay, 101 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:35.439 all right, let's fire off some questions. Yeah, okay, open 102 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:39.480 your ears for info on what fire is, how hot 103 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:45.680 it burns, fire trends, tinderboxes, lots and lots of forest fire, flimflam, 104 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:52.360 tolerant wombats, Angelina Joe Lee, movies, cunning pine cones, thick bark, 105 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:58.439 tragic koalas, indigenous fire stewardship, and more with researcher scientists 106 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:03.240 of the woods, does dweller, al cuddler, forest service employee, 107 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:08.759 optimist and fire ecologist doctor Gavin Jones. 108 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:31.160 Yes, Gavin Jones, and my pronouns are he him? 109 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:32.160 Got it? 110 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:36.319 And you are currently in New Mexico. 111 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:38.839 That's right in the great city of Albuquerque. 112 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:41.120 Do you guys have trees there? 113 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.560 You know we do? Yes, Okay, it's pretty much desert 114 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.279 out here, so when the trees grow, they don't grow 115 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:47.800 very tall. 116 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:53.920 And now tell me how a fire ecologist from Wisconsin 117 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:58.680 and Florida and now New Mexico. Yes, how did your 118 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.720 life path lead to fire ecology? 119 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:05.040 Oh my goodness, it was really an accident. I do 120 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:07.839 consider myself a fire ecologist, but I was really trained 121 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.240 and I did my graduate work and all my studies 122 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:13.360 in wildlife ecology, and when I was in grad school, 123 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:16.879 I was doing some research out in the Sierra Nevada 124 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:21.279 in California on the cutest, cuddliest creature there is, the 125 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:33.480 California spotted owl. And yeah, like pretty much anybody who 126 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:39.680 spends enough time doing science out in fire prone lands 127 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:42.879 like the Sierra Nevada, you eventually become a fire ecologist 128 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:45.079 because of fire happens and then you have to try 129 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:48.079 to figure out what to do with it. So that's 130 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:51.000 exactly what happened. I was doing my master's degree. I 131 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:54.920 was at the University of Wisconsin with my supervisor, Zach Peery, 132 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:58.160 and we were doing a study out in California on 133 00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:01.439 spotted owls, trying to figure out forests they used how 134 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.600 they would respond to climate change. And just as I 135 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.399 was finishing my master's degree, like just a month or 136 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:12.759 two before I had defended my degree, a big fire 137 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:14.040 burned through our study area. 138 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:14.639 Yeah. 139 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:18.560 Yeah, And at the time, to be honest with you, 140 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:22.439 I was pretty devastated. I was like, Man, what does 141 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:24.959 this mean for the work that I've been doing? Like 142 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:28.480 does this even mean anything anymore? It, you know, changed 143 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:33.240 the game a little bit. But it provided an incredible 144 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:37.639 opportunity to learn about how these animals, this owl that 145 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:40.639 I was studying, responded to fire. It was basically a 146 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:44.279 natural experiment. This fire burned through our study area in 147 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:46.759 twenty fourteen, and it burned through about half of it. 148 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:51.360 And so, you know, in ecology, when we're doing these 149 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:55.720 field studies, we rarely get the chance to do experiments. 150 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:59.799 Like almost everything we do is observational. We go out 151 00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:01.799 and see what we see, and we record it and 152 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:04.279 we try to make sense of it. We rarely get 153 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:06.879 to do experiments like you know other folks get to 154 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:08.759 do in the lab who are doing chemistry or their 155 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:13.159 molecular things. But this was really a natural experiment to 156 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:16.440 see how this species of owl responded to fire. And 157 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.399 that's what launched me into, I guess, being a real 158 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:22.840 sucker for fire and for learning about how it works 159 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:25.600 in some of these systems, why it happens, how it happens, 160 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:29.000 what its consequences are. And I'm totally hooked now. 161 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:33.120 Ah, how many of your owls were latered? 162 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:35.720 How many of the owls survived that? 163 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:39.559 Like what percentage of the impacted area half of your 164 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:40.360 study area? 165 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:42.759 So some of them didn't make it. Some of them dispersed, 166 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:44.799 some of them left the fire they were able to 167 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:47.440 get out of the way. And then there's large parts 168 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:50.799 of the fire that didn't burn so severely that burned 169 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:54.320 at lower severity, where basically a lot of the trees 170 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:57.559 that the big trees in the canopy, they kind of 171 00:09:57.639 --> 00:09:59.919 you know, they survived, and some of the understory burned 172 00:10:00.440 --> 00:10:02.559 a little bit more of a what we call quote 173 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:05.759 unquote good fire in some of these areas, which I'd 174 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:07.679 love to talk more about, but you know, a lot 175 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:10.000 of those birds did great and are still persisting in 176 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:13.639 some of those areas that experienced lower severity fire, those 177 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:15.159 lower severity effects to the. 178 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:21.120 Forest, but predictably many bit the proverbial dust and returned 179 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:23.879 to the earth. As Ash Gavin told me that one 180 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:27.600 of his colleagues was servying the charred land and found 181 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:31.200 a little aluminum owl leg band that they used for tagging, 182 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.039 and it encased a little crispy owl leg. Did not 183 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:39.600 go well for that one. And how did that wildfire start? 184 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:43.639 Well, So that particular wildfire that was a human started fire, 185 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:45.679 and it's actually a kind of a sad story. Is 186 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:50.320 some guy I'm trying to remember the details. You should 187 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:53.559 look this up, Alley. But some guy was I think 188 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:56.120 taking a video for his ex girlfriend or something and 189 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:59.240 like lit some house on fire, and then that started 190 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:02.360 this gigant It was like, at the time, one of 191 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:05.840 the largest fires that had burned in the state of California. 192 00:11:06.679 --> 00:11:09.879 Okay, buckle up, here's a story. So this was twenty 193 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:13.679 fourteen's King Fire, and it started in Pollock Pines and 194 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:16.919 the Sierra Nevadas. And I already knew of this fire 195 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:21.360 because my parents lived in Pollock Pines in twenty fourteen, 196 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:23.919 and my sisters and I had to plead with them 197 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:29.480 to heed the emergency evacuation orders as pyrocumulus clouds billowed 198 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:32.320 over their hill. We're like, please get to safety. I'm 199 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:34.320 sweating a lot. Don't make me come up there. 200 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:34.840 I can't. 201 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:35.960 The roads are closed. 202 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:38.879 So I booked my mom and dad a hotel in Reno, 203 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:42.440 out of harm's way. And the hotel turned out to 204 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:47.679 have a mirrored ceiling and a very thrifty but sensual vibe. 205 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:50.080 They tell me. I get the feeling that there were 206 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:52.919 also hourly rates available at this hotel. 207 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:53.759 I got them. 208 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:57.080 I didn't read the reviews Okay, it was an emergency anyway. 209 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:02.000 The Kingfire that reduced homes to ask and dashed people's 210 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:06.559 dreams at flambayed Gavin's owls. It was all started by 211 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:09.000 a guy named Wayne Huntsman, who was not a Huntsman 212 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:14.759 but an arsonist, a formerly incarcerated firefighter actually, who that 213 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:20.759 sweltering September day had set several fires to impress a paramore. 214 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:25.559 He took video for her standing between two small, smoldering 215 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:33.080 blazes that were just starting to take off. I'm not 216 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.960 sure how their relationship turned out, but as proof that 217 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:39.720 we're living in a simulation the burn area, the burn 218 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:45.240 Scar is absolutely shaped like a perfect ninety seven thousand 219 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:48.960 acre dick and balls all ablaze in one of the 220 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:53.960 state's most infamous literal thirst traps. Okay, so how much 221 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:57.679 is our horny, greedy species to blame? 222 00:12:58.200 --> 00:12:59.000 Oh man? 223 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:01.399 And that's another thing is a lot of the ignitions 224 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:06.639 are human ignitions, you know, people accidentally starting fires, machinery 225 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:10.399 getting too hot, people driving over dry grass, and things 226 00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:10.840 like that. 227 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:13.879 So Gavin says that eighty to ninety percent of all 228 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:20.000 wildfires are human caused ignitions. Half of California's largest fires 229 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:23.200 in the last century, happened in the past five years. 230 00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:26.639 By the way, a complex fire means a cluster of 231 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:30.120 related fires in one area. But what's the difference between 232 00:13:30.519 --> 00:13:32.600 a wildfire and a forest fire. 233 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:37.600 We talk about wildfires. Typically when we're talking about wildfires, 234 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:41.519 those are unplanned, so fires that we as people don't plan. 235 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:44.399 So you can kind of juxtapose that with a prescribed 236 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:48.120 fire or a cultural fire. So prescribed fire is often 237 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:53.480 fire that is purposely set and then managed by teams 238 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:56.679 to achieve some type of objective. Maybe they're trying to 239 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:00.519 restore some area, restore fire. You know, you probably hear 240 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:03.000 a lot about, you know, people burning prairies and things 241 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:05.039 like that. It's the same thing in forests, they go 242 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:08.360 in and do prescribed burns. And then there's also a 243 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:12.840 really important component of cultural burning, So indigenous communities using 244 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:17.120 wildfire for their purposes, which until you know, about one 245 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:22.200 hundred two hundred years ago, made up the overwhelming majority 246 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:25.480 of the fire activity that was happening in a lot 247 00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:28.080 of these areas. For you know, the last ten thousand 248 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:32.440 years or so, indigenous peoples have been using fire in 249 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:37.440 a really important cultural way, and that has really changed 250 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.240 in the past couple of centuries with colonization, but that 251 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:44.480 is an increasingly important part of the solution to sort 252 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:46.320 of this modern wildfire problem. 253 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:52.080 And obviously indigenous cultures and just the planet at large 254 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:56.799 saw the benefit of prescribed burns. So what good do 255 00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:01.120 fires do, either in prescribed burns or just in nature. 256 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:04.919 Yeah, that's such a good question. I mean, fires are 257 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:10.600 a critical piece of ecosystems around the world. Every square 258 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:13.559 inch of land that has vegetation has some type of 259 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:17.399 fire regime, It has some sort of natural fire cycle, 260 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:21.159 and fire is kind of a restorative process. There's many 261 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.840 benefits of fire from we can think about it from 262 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:25.799 a human perspective, we can think about it from a 263 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:29.360 sort of an ecosystem perspective, you know, from the human perspective. 264 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:34.039 You know, fires create more resilient forests when they burn 265 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:36.519 the right way. When we have sort of a natural 266 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.720 kind of lower intensity fire in some systems, like in 267 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:41.720 the Sierra Nevada where I've spent a lot of my time, 268 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:46.720 that reinforces healthy water supplies, It reduces you know, erosion. 269 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:52.159 Side note, a fire regime sounds like Satan's cabinet members 270 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.919 farting flames in a Haites boardroom. But it's actually just 271 00:15:55.960 --> 00:16:00.440 a gentle term. A fire regime describes a pattern of fire, frequent, 272 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:02.000 how intense, what kind of fuel? 273 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:04.039 Of gobbles? And maybe me just. 274 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:08.360 Calling it Satan's cabinet members farting in hades. Maybe that's 275 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:11.759 part of the root of europeans fear of fire and 276 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:16.240 thus this historical fire suppression by colonists. I wondered this, 277 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:18.159 and I begged myself not to google it because this 278 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:20.399 acide would be like forty five minutes long. But snap, 279 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:23.639 I found a twenty fifteen paper from the journal Philosophical 280 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:27.600 Transactions of the Royal Society be title Fire in the 281 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:33.919 Mind Changing Understandings of Fire in Western Civilization. What, in 282 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.679 which author Stephen J. Pron writes you ready for this quote. 283 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:40.559 The Old Testament is in fact a cauldron of stories, rights, 284 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:44.320 and beliefs simmering over a mix of religious fires. He 285 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:48.120 goes on to say the heartland of European forestry new 286 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:52.399 fire only as a human artifact, not a natural process. 287 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:57.480 Most new and colonized lands were burned lands naturally, but 288 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:01.519 the agencies found themselves in a can continuous firefight. So 289 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:06.200 fire became a political as well as practical challenge, he continues, 290 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:11.880 the upshot has generally been disastrous. Okay, so what does 291 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:15.720 the land miss out on when natural fire is suppressed 292 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:20.559 and indigenous populations are fined, imprisoned, or even up until 293 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:25.039 the nineteen thirties in the US shot for fire stewardship. Well, 294 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:28.759 from an ecology standpoint, those fires can help the water 295 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:34.519 supply by eliminating excess vegetation and thus increasing runoff into streams, 296 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:39.680 and by preventing huge fires with more frequent smaller ones. Also, 297 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:43.519 erosion doesn't get out of control when there are regular fires, 298 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.880 like you see with post megafire mud slides. Also, the 299 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:52.519 charcoal after a burn could trap carbon for millennia, and 300 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:56.599 the recovery of vegetation takes more excess carbon from the atmosphere. 301 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.680 According to the twenty nineteen paper how wildfires trap carbon 302 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:05.079 for centuries to millennia. Okay, but wildfires burn at eight 303 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:10.640 hundred degrees celsius. That's fourteen seventy two fahrenheit America. So 304 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:15.599 the animals hate natural and cultural burns too, right, No 305 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.680 animal wants to be trapped in a blaze. But I'm 306 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:21.119 just going to stop myself from singing about the circle 307 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:22.039 of life in your ears. 308 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:25.400 And then from an ecosystem perspective, and from what I 309 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:28.440 like to think about a lot is the biodiversity perspective, 310 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:31.640 so you know what kinds of animals there are and 311 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:36.319 the richness of animal life and plant life. Fires create 312 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:42.119 this template for wildlife and plants to thrive. And also 313 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:47.440 that creates this natural dynamic where you have places that 314 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:49.960 burn in one year and then don't burn for a while, 315 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:52.759 and places that burn frequently, in places that burn at 316 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:54.839 high severity and low severity. You can kind of think 317 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:59.559 about it as this patchwork, this mosaic of different ages 318 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:03.359 of foreign that burned at different times, and that creates 319 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:08.759 a really diverse landscape that generates the habitat for lots 320 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:11.880 of critters. It can be a really regenerative and restorative 321 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.440 process to the land, both from a ecosystem perspective and 322 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:18.079 also really you know, fire is a necessary part of 323 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:20.960 these systems, and so when we can put the right 324 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.680 kind of fire on the landscape, it really benefits us 325 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:25.759 to as people and as society. 326 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:30.359 So fire mosaic paints a beautiful picture of land in 327 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:34.519 different states of recovery. And if you're looking to learn 328 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:38.240 more about it. Don't google fire mosaic unless you want 329 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.039 to see a lot of tiling crafts that seem to 330 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:43.799 be an homage to burning man. But look up the 331 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:48.799 official term. It's patch mosaic burning. So let's talk different 332 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:51.440 flavors of fire, because it does matter. 333 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:56.039 So you can think this is a really overly simplistic 334 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:00.319 way to think about fire, because fire is a really 335 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:04.880 complicated process. But the way that we often sort of 336 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.440 describe it and think about it within fire ecology world 337 00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:15.359 is we think about natural low severity fire regimes. You know, 338 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.400 in a given area, you might expect fires to sort 339 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:21.279 of burn a lower severity, not too hot, not too 340 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:24.680 all consuming. They burn along in the understory, nice and happy, 341 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:28.039 crawl along and burn some logs here, burn some trees there, 342 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:32.039 but generally don't destroy or consume the big trees in 343 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:34.400 the overstory of the canopy. So that first end of 344 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:38.759 the system, that's kind of frequent low severity fires. And 345 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:40.960 then on the other end of the whole spectrum you 346 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:46.160 can think about infrequent high severity fires or fire regimes rather, 347 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:49.400 so these are places in that area is for fires 348 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:52.720 when they do burn, to burn pretty big and pretty hot, 349 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:56.519 and those are both natural, but they're natural in those 350 00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:59.119 different places. And so why is it Why is it 351 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:03.440 that you have some places that naturally burn low severity 352 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:06.559 and generally I'm talking about forest fires here and then 353 00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:09.839 other places other forests that naturally burn it really high 354 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:12.759 severity and really large. We can think about those two 355 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:16.119 ends of the spectrum also in terms of what's limiting 356 00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:20.640 the system. So in these low severity fire systems, those 357 00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:25.480 are generally systems that are limited by fuel. And so 358 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:28.519 what I mean by that is the climate is such 359 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:33.279 that on any given year, the conditions are right for fire, 360 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:36.440 Like if there's a lightning strike or another ignition, fire 361 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:39.319 is going to burn and the fuel is dry, and 362 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.000 the only thing that's keeping that fire, one of the 363 00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:44.680 primary things that's controlling that fire and where it burns 364 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.680 is where the fuel is, where the trees are, where 365 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:52.640 the kindling so to speak is. And because those fires, 366 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:56.240 those places they ignite every year, there's ignitions all the time, 367 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.240 and the conditions are right for fire, they burn really frequently. 368 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.039 You can think about places where the fires burn every 369 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:05.279 couple of years, and when they do burn, they kind 370 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:10.480 of clean out or you know, burn in that understory. 371 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:14.200 So sort of below the forest canopy. It's burning the 372 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.480 smaller trees, it's burning some of the medium trees, and 373 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:19.920 it's burning some of the big trees. But mostly it 374 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:21.839 just every time a fire burns, it burns all that 375 00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:25.319 fine fuel or a lot of it, right, And so 376 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:31.119 that's the primary sort of control on how fire burns 377 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:34.400 in some of these dry fuel limited systems. 378 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:37.839 So in these areas, the way it's supposed to be 379 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.599 is that fires don't get mega because blazes are more frequent, 380 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.599 so burning all of the fallen wood and the understory, 381 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.599 so an excess of fuel doesn't build up. So that's 382 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:52.720 one way that these giant, devastating fires can be avoided. 383 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:56.200 And then on the other end of the spectrum, you 384 00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:00.240 have these climate limited systems. So rather than this and 385 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.839 being limited by fuel, it's limited by climate. And so 386 00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:07.680 this is a place like the Pacific Northwest, where it's 387 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:10.920 really wet, right, it's generally wet most of the time, 388 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:14.839 it's cool. There's maybe quite a few ignitions, but when 389 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.480 those ignitions occur, the fuel is not really ready to burn. 390 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:22.279 It's too wet, and maybe it burns a small fire 391 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:24.759 or something like that, but it just kind of extinguishes itself. 392 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:29.799 And you think about that system, those kind of areas, 393 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.160 and when you end up getting those really big, infrequent 394 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:37.680 severe fires that occur there, it's because there's been a 395 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:42.440 some sort of climate activity, like a drought that's caused 396 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:45.000 all that fuel that hasn't burned in a really long 397 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.559 time to dry out and then it burns, and when 398 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:50.279 it does burn, it burns really big because there's tons 399 00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:53.000 of fuel available, right, And so those are that's kind 400 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:54.720 of the two ends of the spectrum. And you know, 401 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:57.200 I was trying to think about this today. How do 402 00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:01.640 I describe that that like spectrum in a way that's 403 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:07.599 not so dry and academic. And I was thinking about, like, Okay, 404 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:10.519 like the haircut that I get is like a frequent 405 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:14.000 fire system. Okay. You know, I go to Great Clips 406 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:16.359 or Sport Clips or whatever just down the street from me, 407 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:19.440 and I get my haircut every few weeks, maybe every month. 408 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:22.359 It's it kind of maintains the general structure. It never 409 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:26.000 kind of goes super long, and I never buzz it 410 00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:29.319 super short either. I just kind of keep it, you know, tamed, 411 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:32.559 so to speak. You know, I go in there frequently, 412 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:36.160 I clean out sort of the growth right, that's happened 413 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:39.640 in between each cut. And on the other end of 414 00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:41.720 the spectrum, you could have somebody and I did this 415 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:43.960 once when I was in college. I think you're right 416 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:47.200 after college, you know, grow out your hair super duper 417 00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:49.559 long like I didn't. I didn't cut it for I 418 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:51.559 don't remember exactly how long it was. But let's say 419 00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:53.640 so you grow your hair for a year, five years 420 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:58.079 or something, you know, get some pretty floppy, pretty pretty 421 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:00.519 crazy hair, at least if you got hair like me, 422 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:02.599 and then you say, I'm gonna buzz it, and so 423 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.240 then you buzz it right off. That's kind of the 424 00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:06.200 I don't know, you can kind of kind of think 425 00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:08.680 about that as the two ends of the spectrum. Right, 426 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:12.079 You've got like your frequent haircut system, and you've got 427 00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:16.079 your infrequent, high severity haircut system, where you know, you 428 00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:18.079 just let it grow and then you cut it all off. 429 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:22.039 Okay, So in this analogy, the regular maintenance cuts are 430 00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:25.759 the low intensity fires, the ones that burn the undergrowth, 431 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.839 that don't spread too far or that extinguish themselves because 432 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:33.279 there's enough moisture to keep things from being straight bone 433 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:37.799 dry powder, keg, kindling. But if those small fires don't happen, 434 00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:42.240 or if the fire resistant older trees are logged out, 435 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:46.119 or if the climate is just super hot, then you 436 00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:49.920 get a situation that's much more dramatic. I've had got 437 00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:54.480 and is that like long main to buzz cut? Is 438 00:25:54.519 --> 00:25:56.640 that what a mega fire is? Then? 439 00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.279 Yeah, so that term, I would say, that's a good 440 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:02.000 way to think about it. Yeah, from the long man 441 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:04.759 to the buzz cut. The term megafire is a really 442 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:08.839 interesting term, and it really doesn't have a great definition. 443 00:26:09.079 --> 00:26:12.279 A lot of people when they talk about megafires, they're 444 00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:16.519 thinking about these basically really big fires, just fires that 445 00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:19.359 are giant in size. But you can have a really 446 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:26.119 really large fire that doesn't necessarily create that forest buzz cut, right, 447 00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:29.559 It doesn't necessarily kill all the trees within its path. 448 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:33.240 It may kill some trees in some parts, but not 449 00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:34.599 throughout the whole fire. 450 00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:38.839 So a forest mullet maybe, but not the cool kind 451 00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:42.319 that gen Z has, the warning my cousin will probably 452 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.839 hit on your wife kind of mullet. Not ideal. 453 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:47.480 You can have really large fires that are not necessarily 454 00:26:47.720 --> 00:26:51.599 super damaging. You can have smaller fires that are pretty 455 00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:53.960 severe and intense and destroy a lot of what's there 456 00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:56.680 in terms of the forests. There isn't really a single 457 00:26:56.720 --> 00:26:58.400 definition of mega fires. A lot of people like to 458 00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.319 think about them in terms of their impact to society too, 459 00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:04.279 So it's not just like how big or severe they 460 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:06.720 are in terms of how many trees they kill, but 461 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:13.480 it's you know how much that fire influences people, and 462 00:27:13.720 --> 00:27:17.680 you know how much of the infrastructure it destroys. And 463 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:23.240 there's a growing problem within the US, and particularly the 464 00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:26.279 western US, which right now, as you know, is experiencing 465 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.880 quite a bit of fire activity. There's a lot more 466 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:33.400 people living in that interface, what we call the wildland 467 00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:37.640 urban interface or the wui yeah WOOI. 468 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:41.920 So yes. The US Forest Service defines the wildland urban 469 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:45.079 interface as quote, a group of home and other structures 470 00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:49.200 with basic infrastructure and services within or adjacent to federal 471 00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:53.440 land that is an at risk community. Aka all the 472 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.119 cute cabins that you save on pinorest when you should 473 00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:58.000 be working on a spreadsheet for your boss because you 474 00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:00.039 just want to get away for the weekend, but go 475 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.799 to someplace that still has coffee shops. So more and 476 00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:06.480 more folks ditched the cities in the pandemic for these 477 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.799 type of living situations and might be getting their very 478 00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:14.400 first tastes of PSPs, which are public safety power shutoffs 479 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.240 when utility companies straight up cut power for a day, 480 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.039 maybe a few weeks when winds are high in case 481 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:27.119 otherwise live downed wires ignite the forest. Realators might not 482 00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.319 tell you about that until after you're done with escrow. 483 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:33.079 So wow, we indeed the wildland are going to interface 484 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:36.440 is kind of this intermingling of people and the forest 485 00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:38.920 right where they kind of overlap a little bit. And 486 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:40.799 there's a lot more people living there now than there 487 00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:43.839 was ten twenty years ago, and so you can think 488 00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.960 about fires is generally having more of a mega impact 489 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:50.079 on people now because we're just more vulnerable in some 490 00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:53.319 ways to those fire effects when those fires do burn through. 491 00:28:54.599 --> 00:28:58.839 And now as we're speaking, the Dixie Fire is the 492 00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:03.640 one of the largest fires California has ever seen. There's 493 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:06.319 the is it the Bootleg fire up in Oregon? 494 00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:07.920 Yeah, in southern Oregon, that's right. 495 00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:11.599 So I'm surprised you were able to even talk to 496 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.119 me right now. Can you tell me a little bit 497 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:18.119 about what your job entails. Do you have? Is the 498 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:21.599 busy season all year round? Because you're analyzing data that 499 00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:23.359 comes in or are you do you have to go 500 00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:25.680 to the field a lot? Are you getting reports from 501 00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:28.759 people who are closer to each of the fires? Do 502 00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.440 you have to count all the fires all of that? 503 00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:36.160 Yeah? Yeah, So I am not one of the incredible 504 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.119 people who are out on the front lines doing this 505 00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:41.039 work on the fires, right. My work is really more 506 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:45.039 focused on after fire burns, what can we learn from it. 507 00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:47.240 And there are also a ton of people, of course, 508 00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:49.880 who are out there responding to these fires like the 509 00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:53.559 Dixie Fire and the Bootleg fire and many others when 510 00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:56.400 those are burning, and those are the people who really 511 00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:59.240 deserve the applause and the praise, right who are out 512 00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:02.759 there doing this really dangerous work. And I'm relatively speaking, 513 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:05.279 I'm a desk jockey compared to those people. So I 514 00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:08.160 spend a lot of my time here at the computer 515 00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:12.079 trying to take that data and learn from the fires 516 00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:17.720 and trying to understand how wildlife respond to those fires. 517 00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:20.079 That's what I do most of the time. This last year, 518 00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:24.079 COVID year, has definitely made things even more so away 519 00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:26.440 from the field. But boy, I love field work. I've 520 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:28.759 done quite a bit of it. I love getting out 521 00:30:28.839 --> 00:30:31.880 into those burned landscapes and trying to figure out what's 522 00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:32.240 going on. 523 00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:35.680 What is it like when you are doing field work, 524 00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:38.079 what kind of samples do you have to collect, and 525 00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:39.960 what kinds of observations are you making. 526 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.839 Yeah, so a lot of the work that I've done 527 00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:46.720 has focused on how this one little critter that spotted 528 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:51.279 out responds to these burned areas, these fires that have 529 00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:53.720 come through. And so myself and some of my really 530 00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:57.039 outstanding colleagues, both back from when I was in grad 531 00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:01.119 school that I established during my PhD program, those collaborators 532 00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:03.960 back at University of Wisconsin, as well as some of 533 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:07.799 my fantastic teammates here at the Rocky Mountain Research Station 534 00:31:07.880 --> 00:31:10.799 with the US Forest Service, We've done quite a bit 535 00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:14.039 of work trying to understand how this bird, this spotted owl, 536 00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:18.200 responds to fires. We've gone out and spent quite a 537 00:31:18.200 --> 00:31:22.400 bit of time in these burned areas, capturing owls and 538 00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:25.400 putting GPS tags on them to see where they move 539 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:27.720 in these burned areas, to see if they if they 540 00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:30.400 like them, or if they're using them. We literally go 541 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.960 out into the woods and hoot at the alley. Dear, really, 542 00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:38.559 we really do. It's you walk into the woods where 543 00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:39.960 you think there's going to be an owl and you 544 00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:44.759 just start hooting with your mouth. You just do it, 545 00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:47.480 and they hoot back because they're like, hey, who the 546 00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:48.079 heck is that? 547 00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:50.160 Oh my gosh. 548 00:31:50.200 --> 00:31:52.240 And then are you able to count them based on 549 00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:54.319 who hoots? 550 00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:59.160 Pretty much? Yeah, So we call them callback surveys, so 551 00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:03.119 we're calling the call back and that's how we locate them. 552 00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:06.799 And oftentimes we're just interested in detecting them. So, okay, 553 00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:09.279 there's an owl here, there's an owl there, sort of 554 00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:12.119 establishing where they are across the landscape. 555 00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:15.119 Did I look this up? Of course, and please enjoy 556 00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:19.720 the absolute maestro of this art see Ora Pacific Industries 557 00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:22.440 wildlife biologist Kevin roberts Well. 558 00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:24.720 I like to do when I'm surveying for spotted owls 559 00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:26.559 and using my voice is kind of mix them all 560 00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:28.799 up and do something to the fact. 561 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:37.960 Of whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 562 00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:40.799 Whoa. 563 00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:49.319 Thank you, Kevin. We beg you to make a ring tone. 564 00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:51.359 Is it too much to ask? You can only answer 565 00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:54.440 that in owl hoots. But anyway, that is how you 566 00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:58.279 do a Jim Carrey level impersonation of spotted owls. 567 00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:00.000 But a lot of the work I've done is focus 568 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:04.039 on capturing those owls once we find them, and putting 569 00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:06.279 little GPS tags on them and seeing where they go. 570 00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:08.480 And then we get that, we get that data and 571 00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:10.759 we see where they went, and we try to figure out, Okay, 572 00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:13.079 how are they interacting with some of those burned areas. 573 00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:16.000 What can we learn from that about what type of 574 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:17.839 fire they like, what kind of forests they like, and 575 00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:20.920 how we might be able to manage the forests in 576 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:22.279 a way that supports them. 577 00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:29.279 And how is fire ecology changing with the climate with droughts? 578 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:32.279 Why do droughts even happen? Is the water that would 579 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:35.119 normally rain here raining somewhere else? 580 00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:36.599 So where is the water? 581 00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:37.720 So? 582 00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:41.759 Okay, So again this is something that much smarter people 583 00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:44.319 would have a much better answer for. But I will 584 00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:47.400 say that something that is for certain is that we 585 00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:54.240 are entering into uncharted territory with fire and fire ecology 586 00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:57.640 and fire behavior. And one of my good colleagues at 587 00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:01.880 University of California, merced Leroy Yesterling, has you know, said 588 00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:04.279 many many times to me, and I've seen him write 589 00:34:04.279 --> 00:34:07.839 about this too. You know, there is no more normal 590 00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:10.800 in terms of fire. There's not even a new normal. 591 00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:14.320 It's a new abnormal, you know, we because we just 592 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:17.760 it's really it's becoming really difficult to predict what's going 593 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:19.679 to happen in the future because we don't have a 594 00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:24.719 reference point anymore. We're sort of just going into uncharted territory. 595 00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:27.679 And so you know, when it comes to drought and 596 00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:31.480 climate change and things like that, Look, those are definitely 597 00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:34.880 a part of the equation in terms of what's going 598 00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:37.360 on with wildfire and what's going to happen, and particularly 599 00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:41.239 climate change and you know how that interacts with forests 600 00:34:41.239 --> 00:34:44.840 and drives out fuels and things like that. Sometimes it's 601 00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:48.320 hard to just talk about drought and climate change for 602 00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:52.440 many reasons because it's hard as like a scientist who's 603 00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:55.280 interested in conservation, like, what can I do about that? 604 00:34:56.199 --> 00:34:57.719 I mean, you know, I don't I don't mean to 605 00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:00.639 sound like nihilistic, like, oh, we can't do anything, because 606 00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:03.920 we can. We absolutely can. It's never too late to 607 00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.159 make actions on those big problems like climate change, right, 608 00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:14.159 But you know, I have the the honor to work 609 00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:18.039 for this agency, the US Forest Service, that is in 610 00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:21.760 charge of managing a ton of land, and so what 611 00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:25.400 can we do on the ground to make a difference 612 00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:29.599 in terms of how these fires burn, right, and you know, 613 00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:32.159 considering climate change like that plays a role, plays a 614 00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:35.079 really important role, and so does drought in terms of 615 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.840 driving some of these wildfire patterns that we've seen. But 616 00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:42.360 there's also something to be said for how forests are 617 00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:47.320 managed and how flammable forests are, and how we can 618 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:51.280 potentially manage them in a way that tries to mitigate 619 00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:54.400 those worst effects of fire when they do come through. 620 00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:59.199 So it's really like you are going to hear people say, oh, 621 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:01.559 you know, these fires are just because of climate change, 622 00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:04.320 there's nothing we can do about it. And then you're 623 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:07.280 going to hear people say, oh, climate change has nothing 624 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:10.440 to do with it. It's we just need to manage forests differently. 625 00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:15.119 And the reality is it's neither of those. It's it's 626 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:18.920 kind of both, right, It's both climate change and you know, 627 00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:22.000 the forest and the patterns of fuels across the landscape 628 00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:25.760 are affecting how fires burn. As a research scientist with 629 00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:28.159 the Forest Service, I'm thinking about how can I do 630 00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:34.000 science that informs how we manage forests. And that's one 631 00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:38.360 of the coolest parts about my job is that I 632 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:42.320 work for an agency that has a really strong management component, 633 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:44.199 you know, a huge part of the agency as people 634 00:36:44.199 --> 00:36:47.559 out there doing this work, you know, managing forests, coming 635 00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:50.400 up with forest plans and management plans and fire plans, 636 00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:54.480 and I get to do science that helps them figure 637 00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:57.000 out how to do that, and we work together, you know, 638 00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:59.519 in a collaborative way to figure that out. And that 639 00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:02.280 is where I think I like focusing on those solutions, right, 640 00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:05.760 How can we press the levers and make a difference 641 00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:06.760 from the ground. 642 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:11.320 Is the leading theory on that is just more and 643 00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:15.559 better prescribed burns, or is it humans stop living in 644 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:19.159 the woods for a while, Like what is the best 645 00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:19.760 tool you have? 646 00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:23.599 Yes, so that is a great question. And I think 647 00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:27.199 this is a misconception that if humans just got out 648 00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:29.840 of the picture, it would all be better. You know, 649 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:31.960 I think it's easy to think that way, like, oh, 650 00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:34.719 we're just the problem and humans suck and we just 651 00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:36.599 need to get out of the picture and nature will 652 00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:39.440 do its own thing and blah blah blah. And look, 653 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:42.159 you know, I understand that perspective. I'm sensitive to it. 654 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:46.719 But we have to remember indigenous people's have been burning 655 00:37:47.239 --> 00:37:52.039 for ten thousand years, and you know, we need more 656 00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:55.199 fire on the landscape, not less. It's just what kind 657 00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:58.960 of fire burns. This is kind of crazy to think about, 658 00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:02.159 but especially given you're looking at these maps. I've got 659 00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:05.199 the New York Times wildfire tracker open here. I got 660 00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:08.760 another tracker on my desktop open as well. Like with 661 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:11.280 all these big fires burning, you're thinking, like, man, there's 662 00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:13.079 just got to be so much more fire now than 663 00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:13.679 there ever was. 664 00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:15.159 Yeah, that's what I would think. 665 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:18.079 Yeah, that's totally what you would think. But it's actually 666 00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:23.159 not the case. There's still less fire in the West, 667 00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:27.360 in western North America. Then there was many many years ago, 668 00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:30.039 one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, five hundred thousand years ago. 669 00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:31.920 But they were smaller back then. 670 00:38:32.199 --> 00:38:32.800 Is that the thing? 671 00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:35.880 So they just burned differently. I'll bring you through a 672 00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:38.679 little a little bit of a time warp. So we 673 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:43.480 often in Western science delineate sort of this pre colonial 674 00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:47.639 era and in the pre European or pre colonial era, 675 00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:51.239 there was a lot of fire in the West. I mean, 676 00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:54.639 these are flammable landscapes and they never really got put 677 00:38:54.679 --> 00:38:59.360 out right. All these ignitions would just burn, and vast 678 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:02.599 areas of landscape would burn all the time, depending again 679 00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:04.679 on what kind of system you're in, right, So, these 680 00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:08.639 frequent fire systems would burn very frequently, you know, every 681 00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:11.559 couple of years you'd have fires kind of returning to 682 00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:16.280 the same areas. Then, when you know, settlers, white settlers 683 00:39:16.679 --> 00:39:24.599 colonized and pretty much disrupted indigenous burning and began actively 684 00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:28.639 suppressing wildfires, the amount of fire in the landscape just 685 00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:33.800 dropped to you know, almost nothing. We were very effective 686 00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:38.719 at suppressing fires for a long time in the Western US, 687 00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:43.800 and basically what's happened is only recently have we sort 688 00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:46.920 of lost our handle on our ability to put out fires. 689 00:39:47.239 --> 00:39:50.239 The level of activity that we're seeing now is still 690 00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:54.400 far less than the level of fire activity that used 691 00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:57.639 to burn. But the difference is that because in many 692 00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:01.800 of these forests, and particularly in the these frequent fire 693 00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.840 forests or these dry forest systems that used to burn 694 00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:08.360 really frequently, they haven't burned in a century or more, 695 00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:12.400 and so when they do burn, they burn really hot 696 00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:14.639 and really big, and that's not a natural kind of 697 00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:18.239 fire for this system. And also, you know, along with that, 698 00:40:18.679 --> 00:40:20.599 we have a lot more people again kind of living 699 00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:24.400 in those fire prone areas, and so we feel the 700 00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:27.679 effects a lot more as well. As the population has increased, 701 00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:31.920 and so we still have way, way less fire activity 702 00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:34.039 on the landscape. It's just that these fires are typically 703 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:39.039 burning in a way that is for those forests unnatural 704 00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:44.559 and for society really not acceptable. Right. The other crazy 705 00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:49.639 thing is that we actually have in some areas, particularly 706 00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:53.920 again these sort of historically frequent fire systems, we have 707 00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:55.880 a lot more trees too than we used to have. 708 00:40:56.800 --> 00:41:01.199 Oh yeah, which, like it goes right along with that 709 00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:03.840 fire suppression. So we put out fires for one hundred 710 00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:09.599 years or more, and all those little shrubs and saplings 711 00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:12.000 that would have burned and those regular fires grew up 712 00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:14.320 to be big, you know, medium sized trees. 713 00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:18.480 More trees, isn't that good? Well, it's kind of like. 714 00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:21.559 A garage that we have failed to Marie Condo for 715 00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:24.599 a long time, which I'll be honest, is my garage 716 00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:27.119 got to clear some stuff out. I'm talking to myself. 717 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:30.679 And so we have actually a lot more trees on 718 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:33.360 the landscape now in a place like the Sierra Nevada, 719 00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:36.599 where I've spent a lot of my career doing this 720 00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:38.760 research than we used to. It's just like the kinds 721 00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:40.920 of fires are different, the kinds of trees are different. 722 00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:44.960 We have a lot more smaller trees and medium sized trees, 723 00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:47.679 and a lot fewer of those really giant old trees, 724 00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:50.480 which are really kind of an endangered species sort of 725 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:53.960 in and of themselves, because over the past one hundred 726 00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:57.880 years or so, particularly pre nineteen eighties, there was quite 727 00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:00.320 a bit of large tree logging going all the way 728 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:03.119 back to the early nineteen hundreds and late eighteen hundreds, 729 00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:05.360 so a lot of those big old trees were removed, 730 00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:07.360 a lot of those smaller trees grew up with that 731 00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:10.360 fire suppression, and now we just have a ton of 732 00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:14.199 smaller trees on the landscape, and that again is kind 733 00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:16.719 of feeding back into why we have fires that are 734 00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:20.960 burning differently, because these fires are burning through, you know, 735 00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:27.480 these pretty thick, connected, like well connected forests that historically 736 00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:28.840 just didn't look like that at all. 737 00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:32.800 So forests look and behave much differently now than they 738 00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:36.719 were for tens of thousands of years because of colonial 739 00:42:36.880 --> 00:42:40.480 human tinkering. Don't you want to know all about indigenous fires, 740 00:42:40.519 --> 00:42:42.800 stewardship now and cultural burns? 741 00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:43.480 So do I? 742 00:42:43.920 --> 00:42:47.280 And did I hours before this podcast episode on up 743 00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:51.079 decide to feverishly book an Indigenous fire scientist to talk 744 00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:53.480 to me for next week. I did, so stay tuned. 745 00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:57.039 I just thought i'd plant that expectation for you. And 746 00:42:57.519 --> 00:43:02.280 what about the effect of fire on seeds opening and 747 00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:05.320 certain plants saying like sweet, there was just a fire, 748 00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:08.199 now's my time to shine like our ash is good 749 00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:10.760 for certain types of botany. 750 00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:13.760 So okay. One of my colleagues, Jens Stevens, he's with 751 00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:15.679 the Forest Service as well. Now he's done some really 752 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:19.039 awesome work looking at tree adaptations to fire and fire regimes. 753 00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:22.960 But one of the most common examples of how trees 754 00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:26.800 are adapted to fire is, particularly when thinking about seeds, is. 755 00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:30.039 Seroteny as E R O T I n Y. 756 00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:35.800 So seroteny is this trait that some trees have. Not 757 00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:39.599 all trees, but some trees have this basically waxy kind 758 00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:44.400 of resin that encompasses their cones and their seeds, and 759 00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:48.840 they only open when fires burn because the fire melts 760 00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:52.719 that wax off of their seeds and the seeds drop 761 00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:56.320 and then they the trees able to regenerate and typically 762 00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.599 released in many cases. In some cases that I know of, 763 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.440 those trees require a really severe fire to release its seed. 764 00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:07.639 Okay, So serotenus means later or following, and it is 765 00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:10.719 not to be confused with certolene, which is the generic 766 00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:14.400 form of zoloft, which I googled wrong. So according to 767 00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:20.320 Nationalforest dot org, serotinous cones with full mature seeds can 768 00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:23.760 just chill out closed up on a pine tree like 769 00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:27.760 a jackpine or a table mountain pine for years until 770 00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:31.000 a fire sweeps through and the resin melts and then 771 00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:34.559 the seed confetti party time happens. So this is also 772 00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:39.519 side note. How indoor fire sprinklers work. They're not reliant 773 00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:42.920 on smoke, but on heat of over one hundred and 774 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:46.000 fifty degrees fahrenheit. So there's a little glass capsule in 775 00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:49.440 fire sprinklers and it's filled with glycerine and that heats 776 00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:53.679 up and bursts and opens the sprinkler valve. And apparently 777 00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:57.760 they open individually wherever its hottest, not all at once 778 00:44:57.800 --> 00:44:59.960 like in the movies. I'm looking at you, lethal weapon 779 00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:03.480 for the Incredibles in Charlie's Angels and Mean Girls and 780 00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:06.519 Casino Royal and Kindergarten Cop and the Peanuts movie and 781 00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:08.199 all the other ones. And I'm going to link on 782 00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:11.360 my website because I found someone with a YouTube channel 783 00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:14.679 who is very pissed about the sprinkler myth. Anyway, heat 784 00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:17.119 seeds disperse, it's natural. 785 00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:22.360 And so some trees have adapted that tree and in 786 00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:25.519 other cases trees have really thick bark. And this is 787 00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:28.239 the case for many of the trees and these frequent 788 00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:32.239 fire systems that experience fires all the time on a 789 00:45:32.239 --> 00:45:35.639 five to ten year cycle or you know, in that range, 790 00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:38.280 trees have really thick bark because they need to survive 791 00:45:39.320 --> 00:45:44.000 that frequent heat and disturbance from fire. And so there's 792 00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:48.760 really remarkable adaptations that plants have to fire. And also 793 00:45:48.920 --> 00:45:53.440 increasingly we're trying to learn about animal adaptations to fire. 794 00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:57.079 Typically we think about these in terms of behavioral adaptations, 795 00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:00.880 so like, how do animals interact with their fire itself 796 00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:04.039 or the post fire landscape in a way that tells 797 00:46:04.119 --> 00:46:06.159 us a little bit about it, kind of opens the 798 00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:08.119 book on their evolution, how they evolved. 799 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:11.039 So what are the spoty owls like? It turns out 800 00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:15.400 small patches of high intensity fires, which were more common 801 00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:19.400 in pre colonial times, spotty owls are like me at 802 00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:22.519 a cocktail party just waiting for a tray of egg 803 00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:25.679 girls to roll past. Now, in scientific terms. This is 804 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:27.880 called a sit and wait predator. 805 00:46:27.800 --> 00:46:30.079 And the owls like to sit on the edge, on 806 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:34.239 that green edge and hunt into that smaller patch of 807 00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:37.599 open forest where I can see little you know, critters 808 00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:40.360 run across, and it has a better flight path and 809 00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:43.719 that sort of thing, while also concealing itself from its predator, 810 00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:46.559 like the great horned owl. So that's just one example 811 00:46:46.599 --> 00:46:49.639 that I've been involved in. But we generally expect you 812 00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:53.480 not only plants to have these adaptations, but also animals 813 00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:56.039 to potentially have these behavioral adaptations too. 814 00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:00.199 That's so interesting. Also, I didn't realize that owl had 815 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:02.559 drama between them. He would think, you'd be like, I'm 816 00:47:02.559 --> 00:47:04.840 an owl, You're an owl, Let's make this happen. 817 00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:05.119 You know. 818 00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:07.960 No, it's it's so true. There is totally drama. And 819 00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:11.719 one of my mentors and colleagues's name is Rocky Gucittis. 820 00:47:12.039 --> 00:47:14.639 He's done some work looking at owl communities and trying 821 00:47:14.679 --> 00:47:17.559 to figure out like how owls can coexist in space. 822 00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:19.639 There's a lot of drama out there in the in 823 00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:20.840 the so much. 824 00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:26.760 Speaking of drama, have you seen the acclaimed dramatic film 825 00:47:27.159 --> 00:47:30.480 Those Who Wished Me Dead starring Angelina shole who is 826 00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:32.000 a person who lives in a fire tower. 827 00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:33.320 No, I have not. 828 00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:41.360 Well, if you like fires and people being miscast, you 829 00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:43.559 will love those who wish me dead. 830 00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:46.760 That's that's my main genre of movie that I like, 831 00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:49.079 wonderful miscasting. Yeah, that's great. 832 00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:51.159 If you like to watch a movie in the entire 833 00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:54.079 time picture someone else playing the lead role, you will 834 00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:57.920 love those who wish me dead. She is absolutely gorgeous. 835 00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:00.360 She's a stunner. I love her acting. I don't know 836 00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:02.800 why they cast her this movie. It seems so weird. 837 00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:04.480 Why they put you in a fire tower. 838 00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:09.440 Well I'm just lucky, I guess anyway. Those who wish 839 00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:12.079 me dad just so much, so much forest fire and 840 00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:14.760 a lot of just breathing through smoke that seems like 841 00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:17.280 it should be thicker. But you can. You can smell 842 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:21.079 this movie. Listen. There are a lot of actors that 843 00:48:21.159 --> 00:48:25.199 are suited for certain types of cinematic environments. Okay, oh, 844 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:27.639 but if you watch it, Medina Sanghor so good in 845 00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:29.719 it that I just looked up her name and then 846 00:48:29.719 --> 00:48:33.480 I followed her on Instagram. So some beautiful creatures are 847 00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:36.719 more well suited to some roles and environments. 848 00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:38.639 That's all, what about. 849 00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:40.159 The term pyro diversity? 850 00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:41.400 Is that a real one? 851 00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:45.119 Oh Allie, I'm so glad you asked that question. I 852 00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:49.519 am street smart and book smart. Yes, so, pyro diversity 853 00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:52.320 is something that I've been spending a lot of time 854 00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:55.320 thinking about in recent years. It's kind of a fun buzzword, 855 00:48:55.360 --> 00:48:57.760 you know, like pyro diversity, Like what does that even mean? 856 00:48:58.000 --> 00:48:59.920 Someone made that up? And it probably because well, somebody 857 00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:02.239 did make it up. It basically is another way to 858 00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:06.920 think about this fire mosaic that we were talking about earlier. 859 00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:11.960 The term pyrodiversity sort of emerged alongside this idea that 860 00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:19.440 pyro diversity gives rise to biodiversity. So basically that the 861 00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:22.880 more different kinds of fire that we have on the landscape, 862 00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:27.880 the more different kinds of severities, the different fire ages. Basically, 863 00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:33.079 the greater mixture of different types of fire characteristics that 864 00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:38.519 are in a landscape is going to lead to greater biodiversity, 865 00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:42.039 which means more species. Basically, so you have more kinds 866 00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:45.119 of wildlife, more kinds of plants, et cetera, more kinds 867 00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:47.840 of bees, more kinds of bats, more kinds of birds, 868 00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:51.599 et cetera, because you have all sorts of different kinds 869 00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:54.159 of habitat for them that's been produced by fire. 870 00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:56.679 Ah, Okay, that makes sense. 871 00:49:57.079 --> 00:50:01.800 Yeah, yeah, so's It's an important idea because it really 872 00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:05.559 kind of underlies this important role of fire in these 873 00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:08.280 cases with you know, the Dixie Fire and the Bootleg fire, 874 00:50:08.599 --> 00:50:13.280 these fires that are really like destructive to human infrastructure 875 00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:16.119 and also you know, to people's lives. I mean, this 876 00:50:16.159 --> 00:50:19.920 is really serious stuff that is sad and it's hard 877 00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:22.880 to watch. But on the other side of the coin, 878 00:50:23.039 --> 00:50:25.519 we do need fire on the landscape, right we just 879 00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:27.679 we need a different kind of fire. We don't want 880 00:50:27.719 --> 00:50:30.239 to see more, you know, of the destructive fires that 881 00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:32.840 are out there. We want to see good fire. And 882 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:35.199 what I mean by good fire is really kind of 883 00:50:35.239 --> 00:50:38.880 like this pyro diversity idea, where we have a really 884 00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:43.519 nice mixture of fire that kind of restores, It cleans 885 00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:47.000 out the understory in some places, it kills some trees, 886 00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:49.239 It disrupts the system a little bit. You know, some 887 00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:53.960 disruption is good, and you create that really sort of 888 00:50:54.519 --> 00:50:59.840 wide ranging variety of habitats for different critters to live, 889 00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:03.159 and that also supports all sorts of other great things 890 00:51:03.239 --> 00:51:06.960 like water quantity and quality. It reduces a runoff. It 891 00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:12.199 reinforces the resilience of ecosystems and forests. So like fire 892 00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:15.440 is so good and it's like we want that good 893 00:51:15.559 --> 00:51:18.440 kind of fire. It's really such a restorative thing. And 894 00:51:18.639 --> 00:51:22.840 it's just pyro diversity kind of encompasses this idea of 895 00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:27.880 like that beautiful mosaic on the landscape that is always changing. 896 00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:31.960 It's not just static, it's always changing, always being renewed. 897 00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:34.119 That's the idea of pyrodiversity. 898 00:51:34.840 --> 00:51:35.679 Huh. 899 00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:40.440 Can I blaze through a lightning round? 900 00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:41.320 Yes? 901 00:51:41.559 --> 00:51:46.880 Part in the punk even though I'm not sorry, okay, 902 00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:49.880 And before your questions, we donate to a cause each episode, 903 00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:53.480 and as a Forest Service employee, Gavin can't directly endorse 904 00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:57.039 anything in particular, so it was my pick this week 905 00:51:57.119 --> 00:51:59.320 and a donation will be going to the Common Good 906 00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:02.719 Community found Nation. They have established a matching fund to 907 00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:06.159 assist all local communities impacted by the Dixie Fire, and 908 00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:09.920 all donations will be distributed to Plumous County agencies involved 909 00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:14.079 in directly assisting communities and individuals most affected by the fire. 910 00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:17.559 More info is up at common Goood Plumas dot org 911 00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:21.159 and that donation was made possible by sponsors of the show. 912 00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:26.880 Bionant burger, the hardnir, the holla, the hamen a heck 913 00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:34.840 ah Ersen raslance ladeni, the tain nudovshuhu la hula, shomperodes 914 00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:40.639 on udos, lance is phaser, Natgan's throw, Tasha tapa siranashka 915 00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:46.599 av is FuGO more tri h i a punk ie 916 00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:51.280 is called on tudoros or raslanse if we realti ina hearn. 917 00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:57.800 Okay, let's tend to your smoldering curiosities. Great question from 918 00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:02.360 Nicole di g Marie lit Foca Card, Meghan McLean, Daniel Kim, 919 00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:07.440 Liz Gross, eat in Sunshine, Talia Dunyak. Nicole Kleiman also asked, 920 00:53:08.679 --> 00:53:12.960 in Nicole's words, what happens to wildlife when there's a fire. 921 00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:16.280 Daniel Kim wants to know are there any animals that 922 00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:20.199 have adapted to survive forest fires? And Nicole asks do 923 00:53:20.239 --> 00:53:23.000 they all leave? Or are some able to hide or 924 00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:24.599 survive in a sneaky way? 925 00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:28.760 Oh that's so great. This is a great question. So 926 00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:31.239 I don't know if I can do a super quick 927 00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:33.320 answer to this because I'm gonna be too excited about it. 928 00:53:35.800 --> 00:53:38.719 But yeah, so how do wildlife respond to wildfire? So 929 00:53:38.920 --> 00:53:42.519 here's the thing. It really depends and that's like the 930 00:53:42.599 --> 00:53:46.400 greatest you know, scientific smoke and mirrors, Like, hey, it depends, 931 00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:51.599 but it really does. Some species like fire, some don't. 932 00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:53.800 And it also depends on what kind of fire it is, 933 00:53:54.239 --> 00:53:58.679 you know, if it's really severe or mild. So, for example, 934 00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:02.599 there's one species that some of my awesome colleagues have 935 00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:05.800 worked on. It's called the black backed woodpecker. Many people 936 00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:08.280 think of it as a poster child of severely burned 937 00:54:08.360 --> 00:54:13.960 forest because it really needs these patches of totally killed trees. 938 00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:18.800 It depends on the insects that live in those recently 939 00:54:18.920 --> 00:54:23.320 killed trees. It needs those severely burned forests. Several years 940 00:54:23.360 --> 00:54:26.960 after those those fires burn and those trees are killed, 941 00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:29.119 it's no longer good habitat, Like it's really kind of 942 00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:32.679 this short term thing. They flock to these really severely 943 00:54:32.679 --> 00:54:35.239 burned places, they totally thrive, and then they are out 944 00:54:35.239 --> 00:54:38.599 of there and onto the next fire. So some critters 945 00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:41.840 love that, others not so much so. The spotted at all, 946 00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:43.519 the species that I spent a lot of time studying, 947 00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:46.320 it is really kind of more of an old forest obligate. 948 00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:49.360 It doesn't love that severely burned stuff quite as much. 949 00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:52.559 So basically there are winners and losers. That's the answer is. 950 00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:55.159 It's never simple. It's never as simple as you make it. 951 00:54:55.159 --> 00:54:57.280 It's not just all animals are going to die or 952 00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:59.599 leave when a fire burns. Now, some of them are 953 00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:01.960 going to do rate and some of them are not. 954 00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:04.679 That's like part of the beauty of studying this stuff 955 00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:06.719 is like trying to figure out why why do some 956 00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:09.239 animals love and some don't? The world is so complex 957 00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:11.960 and amazing it's like really fun to try to figure 958 00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:15.599 that out right. And then in terms of where animals go, 959 00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:19.320 some animals can escape fires, you know, fly out of 960 00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:21.280 the way, run out of the way. I always think 961 00:55:21.320 --> 00:55:24.280 of like Bamby, you know, a movie band, Like all 962 00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:30.159 the animals are like parading out of the forest. I 963 00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:33.719 don't want to ruin Bamby for anybody, it's uh, but 964 00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:36.960 you know, some animals can evay fire, even you know, 965 00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:40.920 flying critters cannot always fly away from fast moving fires. 966 00:55:41.159 --> 00:55:43.880 Some animals will burrow under the ground and wait for 967 00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:45.920 the fire to pass and then come back out, which 968 00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:49.000 is totally crazy. You should yeah, it's it's nuts. 969 00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:54.760 Woo, Okay. Burrowing critters hiding from fires. My heart burst 970 00:55:55.239 --> 00:55:57.519 into flames. So which animals burrow? 971 00:55:57.800 --> 00:55:58.119 All right? 972 00:55:58.239 --> 00:56:03.239 Some Australian possums hide out in tree hollows. Snakes high 973 00:56:03.239 --> 00:56:06.440 tail it down a burrow. But wombats also hit the 974 00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:09.719 basement during bushfires. And there were a bunch of internet 975 00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:12.840 rumors going around last year that they invite and usher 976 00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:17.519 other critters in. These rumors spread like wildfire, but they 977 00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:20.960 are flame flam They actually just tolerate other animals hiding 978 00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.679 out in their wombat doomsday bunkers. But same with gopher 979 00:56:24.719 --> 00:56:27.079 tortoises in the US. And to hear all about that, 980 00:56:27.119 --> 00:56:31.519 you can amble slowly over to the Testudonology episode with 981 00:56:31.639 --> 00:56:36.679 wonderful tortoise scientists Amanda Hips. Now what about rebel birds? 982 00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:39.800 There are other creatures. There's fire hawks and they are 983 00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:43.840 down in Australia and they will actually pick up burning 984 00:56:43.880 --> 00:56:47.599 branches and drop them to burn other parts of their 985 00:56:47.599 --> 00:56:49.519 habitat so that they can catch their prey. 986 00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:55.880 I have heard of these and it sounds so devious. 987 00:56:56.119 --> 00:56:59.239 But they even will get together and wait for rodents 988 00:56:59.239 --> 00:56:59.960 to run out. 989 00:57:00.280 --> 00:57:03.199 That's wild, that's just wild. Yeah, there's winners and losers, 990 00:57:03.199 --> 00:57:06.760 like there's such a variety of animals that respond in 991 00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:09.760 different ways to fire, and that's just the coolest thing. 992 00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:13.800 And that's that's one of the reasons why pyro diversity, 993 00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:17.599 going back to pyrodiversity is thought to promote biodiversity, because 994 00:57:18.039 --> 00:57:20.400 the more kind of variety of fire you have, the 995 00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:22.920 more different kinds of animals that are going to benefit 996 00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:25.400 from that variety. Right. So, you know, if you have 997 00:57:25.480 --> 00:57:27.679 sort of your forest that was killed by trees next 998 00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:30.599 to a forest that is totally green and old and 999 00:57:30.679 --> 00:57:34.320 you know, decaying almost, we have this big mosaic of 1000 00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:37.280 different kinds of forests that burn at different times. That's 1001 00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:39.760 going to support all kinds of different critters. So it's 1002 00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:42.559 it's it's a cool thing. Now, that's a good thing. 1003 00:57:42.920 --> 00:57:47.800 And several people Rebecca wine Settle, India Land, Nicole Kleinman, 1004 00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:52.760 Jesse Hurlbert want to know, can I really prevent forest fires? 1005 00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:55.079 Rebecca asks, or is this just another example of a 1006 00:57:55.119 --> 00:57:59.840 giant corporation trying to foist responsibility on to individuals. Nicole 1007 00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:02.360 wants to know what Smoky the bear more helpful or 1008 00:58:02.360 --> 00:58:06.360 harmful to forests? What do you think about smoky the bear? Okay, 1009 00:58:06.559 --> 00:58:12.079 liberty to say. 1010 00:58:09.079 --> 00:58:13.320 I think Smoky the Bear is super cute. I will 1011 00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:17.840 say that we absolutely can prevent forest fires, not all 1012 00:58:17.880 --> 00:58:20.480 of them, and we not necessarily should prevent all of 1013 00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:22.480 them when we think about prescribed fires, right, like, we 1014 00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:25.000 do want to put some fire in the landscape. But 1015 00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:30.559 as I mentioned before, a giant majority, like eighty seven percent, 1016 00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:33.880 between eighty ninety percent, humans cause eighty seven percent of 1017 00:58:33.920 --> 00:58:38.199 all wildfire occurrences annually within the western US. Like, that's crazy, 1018 00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:41.159 that's a big number. Yeah, and a lot of those 1019 00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:43.800 you can go look this up. There's this a couple 1020 00:58:43.880 --> 00:58:48.000 studies out there that have shown, you know, these gigantic 1021 00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:52.519 spikes of fire activity on the fourth of July every year. Oh, Like, 1022 00:58:52.760 --> 00:58:57.079 we absolutely play a role in ignitions. A very small 1023 00:58:57.519 --> 00:59:00.920 percentage of all of the ignitions result in those really big, 1024 00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:03.920 big fires. Of course, many of the fires that ignite 1025 00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:08.039 don't burn everything up, but we absolutely as people can 1026 00:59:08.079 --> 00:59:11.000 be careful about how we burn. I think that smoking 1027 00:59:11.039 --> 00:59:15.880 the Bear is just misunderstood, okay, you know, like because 1028 00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:19.079 it's true. You know, we as people, like, we absolutely 1029 00:59:19.079 --> 00:59:23.480 do start fires. We start unintended, unplanned fires that sometimes 1030 00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:28.599 result in really devastating circumstances. There's sort of this perception 1031 00:59:28.760 --> 00:59:32.079 that all fire is bad among some people, and maybe 1032 00:59:32.119 --> 00:59:33.519 I don't know, I don't know if smoking the bear 1033 00:59:33.559 --> 00:59:36.360 is associated with that or not, but you know, all 1034 00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:40.119 fire is not bad, Like fire is so important, and 1035 00:59:40.159 --> 00:59:42.440 the reason why some fire is really bad right now 1036 00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:44.719 and particularly is because we haven't had the kind of 1037 00:59:44.800 --> 00:59:47.280 fire on the landscape that is natural in a lot 1038 00:59:47.360 --> 00:59:48.039 of these systems. 1039 00:59:48.639 --> 00:59:51.199 So a lot of patrons looking at you, Michael Davis, 1040 00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:55.440 Peter Ashley, Herbel Sebastian Pepino, first time question askers Karla 1041 00:59:55.519 --> 00:59:59.239 Jerez and Ada Smith, Schandra Mason, Bennett Gerber, They all 1042 00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:04.519 essentially ask what do we do it? Should firefighting teams 1043 01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:08.239 approach it more strategically, like let it burn twenty five 1044 01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:10.519 miles over here, but let's stop it here, or at 1045 01:00:10.519 --> 01:00:13.159 this point, like what do we even do? 1046 01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:18.559 Yeah, So that is such a difficult and vexing question 1047 01:00:19.079 --> 01:00:22.239 that much smarter people than me are like thinking really 1048 01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:23.960 really hard about. So I don't want to make any 1049 01:00:24.119 --> 01:00:28.760 like really poorly informed statements about how firefighters should be 1050 01:00:28.800 --> 01:00:31.559 doing their job, because they're doing an incredible job. But 1051 01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:35.960 I'll say that generally, there's there's many times when fires 1052 01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:38.880 are burning and there's a decision made to let let 1053 01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:40.679 the fire burn on its own for a little while 1054 01:00:40.679 --> 01:00:44.119 when it's deemed to be safe. Right, So, especially in 1055 01:00:44.159 --> 01:00:46.920 areas where there's not as many people and can you know, 1056 01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:51.719 like kind of more wilderness type areas, because fires can 1057 01:00:51.800 --> 01:00:54.960 do some of that work for us to restore the 1058 01:00:55.039 --> 01:00:59.360 natural structure of a system. So fires can be really restorative, 1059 01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:01.119 especially in those cases when we think it's going to 1060 01:01:01.199 --> 01:01:03.840 burn in a quote unquote healthy way or a natural 1061 01:01:03.880 --> 01:01:08.159 way and there aren't people who are in danger. So 1062 01:01:08.280 --> 01:01:10.679 that's kind of the idea of those managed wildfires. Just 1063 01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:12.400 you know, when wildfire's burning, we're kind of trying to 1064 01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:14.800 manage them as opposed to to just put them out 1065 01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:16.599 or suppress them. 1066 01:01:16.639 --> 01:01:22.079 And from smoky the bear, let's move on to goats. 1067 01:01:22.519 --> 01:01:31.320 Ashley Minton and Leanna Schuster literally both started their questions goats, 1068 01:01:31.800 --> 01:01:34.400 both of them please tell us about how goats are 1069 01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:38.440 used to help produce fire risk in areas with excess vegetation, 1070 01:01:38.960 --> 01:01:41.559 And Ashley says, I mean a few hours and they 1071 01:01:41.679 --> 01:01:45.159 chewed down most of the pasture. Can goats save us? 1072 01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:47.559 Man? 1073 01:01:47.679 --> 01:01:49.880 I wish goats could just save us. That would be 1074 01:01:49.920 --> 01:01:52.800 so great. Just hand it all over to them. Yeah, 1075 01:01:52.880 --> 01:01:55.039 I'm sure they've they've got it figured out. No, but 1076 01:01:55.800 --> 01:02:00.000 I actually don't know about goats being used in wildfire manager. 1077 01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:04.159 That could just be my naivity. So I'll punt that one. 1078 01:02:04.119 --> 01:02:07.559 Okay, all right? Goats. I tried to rent some for 1079 01:02:07.679 --> 01:02:11.400 my hillside about two years ago, and it was a minimum, 1080 01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:14.440 sadly of five acres and I just moved in and 1081 01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:16.800 it was too soon to ask my neighbors if they 1082 01:02:16.840 --> 01:02:18.920 wanted to go in on a goatherd with me. I 1083 01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:20.840 didn't want to come on so strong. 1084 01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:22.079 But there are. 1085 01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:26.079 Businesses like goatsarus dot com that'll rent them out. I 1086 01:02:26.119 --> 01:02:29.679 thought this was a pretty common practice, hiring goats to 1087 01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:32.400 eat your overgrown grass, because when I was in high 1088 01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:35.239 school in northern California, a lot of neighbors did that. 1089 01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:39.119 And then I read the faq on goats rus dot 1090 01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:43.400 com and what this business started in the tiny town 1091 01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:45.880 I went to high school in around the time I 1092 01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:49.440 was in high school. Holy literal smokes. As far as 1093 01:02:49.480 --> 01:02:53.320 coincidences go, it's the greatest of all time. Okay, So 1094 01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:56.239 this next smokey query was asked by plenty of folks, 1095 01:02:56.320 --> 01:03:01.800 including patrons, Hannah Assi, Alana Wood, fire fighter supporter, Lousey Martinez, 1096 01:03:02.199 --> 01:03:07.239 Charlie Cacamo, first time question asker Ashley Martinez, Nina Eve Seininger, asthmetic, 1097 01:03:07.320 --> 01:03:14.559 Ada Smith, Joseph and Katie Coast. Let's see. Dylan maguire says, 1098 01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:17.440 I live in eastern Washington where smoke has become the 1099 01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:21.480 fifth season. When will we have the giant forest rakes 1100 01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:22.800 mentioned by Donald Trump? 1101 01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:25.840 And they spent a lot of time on breaking and 1102 01:03:25.880 --> 01:03:27.559 cleaning and doing things. 1103 01:03:27.320 --> 01:03:29.639 And do we need to rake the forest? 1104 01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:35.079 So you know, this is I think again, this is 1105 01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:39.280 this is just a misunderstanding. So going back to smoke, 1106 01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:42.199 this is a real problem, right. We don't like being 1107 01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:44.400 exposed to smoke. You remember, I'm sure I don't know 1108 01:03:44.440 --> 01:03:46.000 Ali if this happened where you were. I think this 1109 01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:49.280 was up in the in the Bay Area. Yeah, last year, 1110 01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:51.320 you probably remember seeing all of our social media those 1111 01:03:51.360 --> 01:03:54.039 pictures of you know, San Francisco being just like Orange 1112 01:03:54.159 --> 01:03:57.360 is like some blade runner or something. The problem with 1113 01:03:57.480 --> 01:04:00.719 smoke is that you know it's gonna be there, It's 1114 01:04:00.760 --> 01:04:02.760 going to happen if we're living in a in a 1115 01:04:02.840 --> 01:04:05.719 system that has fire and that where we need to 1116 01:04:05.719 --> 01:04:09.239 have fire, We're going to also have smoke. That's that's 1117 01:04:09.280 --> 01:04:12.039 just a part of a part of it. Right where 1118 01:04:12.039 --> 01:04:16.280 there's fire, there's smoke. The real important question is how 1119 01:04:16.320 --> 01:04:17.159 do we want our smoke? 1120 01:04:19.559 --> 01:04:19.760 You know? 1121 01:04:20.599 --> 01:04:23.079 And and that's how some people are trying to think 1122 01:04:23.119 --> 01:04:25.840 about this problem of smoke, because it is a real 1123 01:04:26.039 --> 01:04:29.519 serious public health problem. Right with these sort of unplanned 1124 01:04:29.719 --> 01:04:32.440 big quote unquote mega fires that happen, we all of 1125 01:04:32.480 --> 01:04:34.599 a sudden get a ton of smoke. We didn't know 1126 01:04:34.599 --> 01:04:37.800 it was coming. It disrupts our lives and puts us 1127 01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:40.639 at risk. And there's a lot of smoke right that happens. 1128 01:04:40.679 --> 01:04:43.079 Just this past week or two there I saw people 1129 01:04:43.119 --> 01:04:45.840 on Twitter, you know, out on the East Coast saying 1130 01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:48.360 that they had, you know, they were getting some smoke 1131 01:04:48.400 --> 01:04:51.159 from some of the wildfires in the West. That kind 1132 01:04:51.400 --> 01:04:57.800 of unpredictable nature is I think for many people, not desirable, 1133 01:04:58.079 --> 01:05:01.599 I say. And so the idea is if we can 1134 01:05:03.400 --> 01:05:07.599 use more prescribed and planned fires, and more cultural and 1135 01:05:07.599 --> 01:05:10.639 indigenous fires where we know when the smoke is coming, 1136 01:05:10.719 --> 01:05:13.079 it's a lower amount. It's like, you know, less smoke 1137 01:05:13.159 --> 01:05:15.440 in general is come in our way at any given time. 1138 01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:19.360 But maybe a little more often. You know, those are 1139 01:05:19.440 --> 01:05:22.320 kind of the two options, right. We can either sort 1140 01:05:22.360 --> 01:05:26.000 of have our smoke in big pulses when we don't 1141 01:05:26.039 --> 01:05:28.480 know it's coming, or we can try to make it 1142 01:05:28.480 --> 01:05:29.400 a little more predictable. 1143 01:05:29.639 --> 01:05:33.679 It seems like the whares and the whys are important here. 1144 01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:36.000 That's exactly right for sure. 1145 01:05:36.559 --> 01:05:41.920 Yes, what about Maria Suavleva wants to know underground wildfires? 1146 01:05:42.159 --> 01:05:44.559 I understand how they start, but how do they keep going? 1147 01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:47.559 How is there enough oxygen for some to last for years? 1148 01:05:47.599 --> 01:05:51.360 How deep do they go? Jeremiah Miller says, what's the 1149 01:05:51.400 --> 01:05:54.679 strangest place there's been a wildfire? They're underground? 1150 01:05:56.840 --> 01:05:59.840 Yeah, some fires do burn underground. It's kind of crazy. 1151 01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:01.360 Who So. 1152 01:06:02.079 --> 01:06:05.320 One of the interesting kind of related phenomenon that I've 1153 01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:09.960 witnessed is sometimes in these areas that have recently burned, 1154 01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:14.559 you come across a gigantic hole in the ground, like 1155 01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:17.840 just a giant hole. There's no tree, there's trees around you, 1156 01:06:17.880 --> 01:06:19.519 and then there's just a gigantic hole in the ground. 1157 01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:20.920 Okay, when I. 1158 01:06:20.880 --> 01:06:23.840 Started doing this work in these post fire landscapes, I 1159 01:06:23.880 --> 01:06:26.039 was like, what in the heck is going on here? 1160 01:06:26.320 --> 01:06:29.599 And I started asking around, and these are are basically 1161 01:06:29.760 --> 01:06:34.079 trees that have burned and kept burning and smoldering and smoldering, 1162 01:06:34.679 --> 01:06:40.039 and the smoldering fire continued down through their root system underground, 1163 01:06:40.480 --> 01:06:42.559 throughout the whole root system, and maybe they'll they'll even 1164 01:06:42.599 --> 01:06:44.480 pop up somewhere else, like you know, a little ways 1165 01:06:44.519 --> 01:06:46.880 away where the root kind of pops back up onto 1166 01:06:46.880 --> 01:06:49.599 this you know ground. And basically these are these are 1167 01:06:49.679 --> 01:06:54.079 like gigantic casts for trees, right like where the tree 1168 01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:57.559 and its roots used to be. So fires can absolutely burn, 1169 01:06:58.039 --> 01:07:01.400 you know, in a subterrein way. I've seen some of 1170 01:07:01.440 --> 01:07:05.239 these sort of root holes following fire, which is just 1171 01:07:05.440 --> 01:07:07.599 kind of wild to see. 1172 01:07:08.039 --> 01:07:09.840 It is wild to see, and I know because I 1173 01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:14.400 just watched a ton of videos of smoldering, flickering root systems. 1174 01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:18.000 They can burn for weeks, months, maybe even through a 1175 01:07:18.039 --> 01:07:22.800 whole season, and the fire will just pop up somewhere else. Also, 1176 01:07:23.239 --> 01:07:27.800 somewhere in Pennsylvania, there is an abandoned Centralia coal mine 1177 01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:32.559 that's been on fire since nineteen sixty two, and experts 1178 01:07:32.599 --> 01:07:35.239 say there was enough fuel to just keep it burning 1179 01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:38.159 for two hundred and fifty years. No one knows what 1180 01:07:38.199 --> 01:07:40.480 to do. They just all left town except for five 1181 01:07:40.480 --> 01:07:43.079 people who still live there. They're like, we're not going anywhere, 1182 01:07:43.119 --> 01:07:50.559 Like that's cool, but yes, fires underground, flames, flames, breathing, heaving. 1183 01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:55.559 Oh man, I didn't even know that was possible. I 1184 01:07:55.679 --> 01:08:00.159 would not have thought that. That is bananas. Ugh of 1185 01:08:00.239 --> 01:08:04.159 y'all patrons. Lizzie Mahr bush fire asker Brandy Harbaugh, first 1186 01:08:04.159 --> 01:08:08.159 time question asker, longtime lurker Adriana Olfaro. Want to know 1187 01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:11.800 what can we expect the normal amount of wildfires to be? 1188 01:08:12.159 --> 01:08:12.920 Is there a normal? 1189 01:08:13.440 --> 01:08:16.119 They all want to know numerically, how much worse are 1190 01:08:16.199 --> 01:08:19.560 big wildfires going to get? Give us numbers. We need numbers. 1191 01:08:19.840 --> 01:08:22.960 So you know, if you look at how fires have 1192 01:08:23.079 --> 01:08:26.439 changed in the last thirty forty years, we have seen 1193 01:08:26.479 --> 01:08:30.079 a lot more fire activity now than we did ten, fifteen, 1194 01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:34.359 twenty years ago and thirty forty years ago. So one 1195 01:08:34.359 --> 01:08:36.399 of my colleagues I just mentioned a moment ago is 1196 01:08:36.479 --> 01:08:39.000 named Sean Parks with US for As Service and one 1197 01:08:39.000 --> 01:08:42.319 of his colleagues. They put out a study recently showing 1198 01:08:42.359 --> 01:08:46.720 that between nineteen eighty five and twenty seventeen there was 1199 01:08:46.760 --> 01:08:51.960 an eightfold increase in area that burned that high severity 1200 01:08:52.000 --> 01:08:56.079 on an annual basis in the western US eight fold. 1201 01:08:56.199 --> 01:09:01.359 So there is certainly a lot more large fires now, 1202 01:09:01.640 --> 01:09:04.399 and there's also when those those fires are burning more 1203 01:09:04.439 --> 01:09:07.399 severely now than they did thirty five or so years ago, 1204 01:09:07.439 --> 01:09:11.119 thirty five forty years ago. But that's like the sort 1205 01:09:11.159 --> 01:09:14.119 of small scale context. But then if you zoom back 1206 01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:16.800 out and look at sort of the whole context of 1207 01:09:16.840 --> 01:09:20.359 the last several thousand years, we are seeing less fire 1208 01:09:20.439 --> 01:09:23.439 now than we did way back when it's a different 1209 01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:26.239 kind of fire that's burning, right, that's not necessarily natural 1210 01:09:26.279 --> 01:09:28.199 in some of these systems. And then also we are 1211 01:09:29.359 --> 01:09:32.520 experiencing more of the effects of fire than we ever 1212 01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:35.359 have as humans, and the negative effects because we're living 1213 01:09:35.359 --> 01:09:38.039 in these fire prone areas where for a long time, 1214 01:09:38.079 --> 01:09:42.000 it was somewhat safe to live, right, because fires weren't 1215 01:09:42.039 --> 01:09:44.840 burning that much for the last hundred years in a 1216 01:09:44.840 --> 01:09:47.399 lot of these areas because we're pretty good at putting 1217 01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:50.760 them out. But now that those fires are burning more 1218 01:09:50.800 --> 01:09:54.119 severely and more intensely, and we're living there and we 1219 01:09:54.560 --> 01:09:56.319 have the news to cover it all the time, Yeah, 1220 01:09:56.319 --> 01:09:59.119 we certainly are hearing about it more, right, and it 1221 01:09:59.159 --> 01:10:01.479 is having a serious impact on people as you know, 1222 01:10:01.560 --> 01:10:04.600 you know, there's all sorts of really tragic stories of 1223 01:10:04.640 --> 01:10:07.199 these fires burning through towns. And one of those towns 1224 01:10:07.239 --> 01:10:09.720 just you know, the Dixie Fire, I believe, burned through Greenville, 1225 01:10:09.760 --> 01:10:11.800 California in the last day or two. And that's an 1226 01:10:11.800 --> 01:10:15.279 incredibly tragic thing to have happened. And right, like we are, 1227 01:10:15.920 --> 01:10:18.279 we are living in a world that's really different. 1228 01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:21.039 Now, right, I know, it's kind of like top of 1229 01:10:21.119 --> 01:10:23.199 mind for everyone. I feel like when you say, oh, 1230 01:10:23.199 --> 01:10:26.119 I live in California, people ask you, like, is your 1231 01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:28.239 city on fire? And you're like, I don't know, let 1232 01:10:28.239 --> 01:10:28.880 me check Twitter. 1233 01:10:29.359 --> 01:10:32.159 I just texted one of my friends who lives in California, like, 1234 01:10:32.159 --> 01:10:34.399 are you guys? Where are you? Are you okay? Are 1235 01:10:34.439 --> 01:10:34.880 you burning? 1236 01:10:35.039 --> 01:10:38.239 Yeah? So yeah literally, b BITPB like this just in. 1237 01:10:38.439 --> 01:10:41.800 According to an NPR report that dropped about an hour ago, 1238 01:10:42.119 --> 01:10:45.279 the US four Service just announced that wildfires will be 1239 01:10:45.479 --> 01:10:50.159 aggressively extinguished this summer and all the preventative controlled burns 1240 01:10:50.439 --> 01:10:53.760 are suspended. Apparently fire season is predicted to be so 1241 01:10:53.920 --> 01:10:57.399 bad they can't spare any of the thousands of firefighters 1242 01:10:57.439 --> 01:11:00.479 on the ground to go do prescribed burns. Kind of 1243 01:11:00.520 --> 01:11:02.760 like not being able to go to bed because you 1244 01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:05.159 have a paper due, but then you can't finish the 1245 01:11:05.199 --> 01:11:08.319 paper because you're too tired. Something's got to change. Tune 1246 01:11:08.359 --> 01:11:10.560 in next week for more on that. Now, on the 1247 01:11:10.600 --> 01:11:15.880 topic of heavy hearts amid blazing wildfires, is there anything 1248 01:11:16.399 --> 01:11:21.920 that is the most difficult thing about being a fire ecologist. 1249 01:11:22.199 --> 01:11:24.399 I mean, I already the idea of like a charred 1250 01:11:24.479 --> 01:11:27.920 owl leg is going to hurt my heart until the 1251 01:11:28.000 --> 01:11:31.439 day I die. But anything that is just really frustrating 1252 01:11:31.520 --> 01:11:32.119 or difficult for you. 1253 01:11:34.199 --> 01:11:39.039 I would say that one of the frustrating things is 1254 01:11:39.079 --> 01:11:42.479 just how difficult this problem is. It's just such a 1255 01:11:42.520 --> 01:11:46.880 big problem, and sometimes it's hard to sort of feel 1256 01:11:46.920 --> 01:11:49.520 like we can get out of it. I'm I like 1257 01:11:49.600 --> 01:11:53.600 to call myself a reckless optimist, you know, for me, 1258 01:11:53.720 --> 01:11:55.600 like the glass is not half full, it's like, oh 1259 01:11:55.600 --> 01:11:57.600 my god, it's almost overflowing. It's like, you know, we 1260 01:11:57.960 --> 01:12:01.039 can do this, you guys, like we can totally do this. 1261 01:12:01.039 --> 01:12:03.600 This is such a difficult problem. It seems like we're 1262 01:12:03.640 --> 01:12:06.600 facing the same problems every year. But I think that 1263 01:12:06.600 --> 01:12:09.359 there's there is a light at the end of the tunnel, 1264 01:12:09.399 --> 01:12:12.319 and that light has to do with getting more of 1265 01:12:12.319 --> 01:12:15.319 that good fire on the landscape. And that's something that 1266 01:12:15.520 --> 01:12:18.560 I know is a priority for the agency. I work 1267 01:12:18.640 --> 01:12:22.199 for the US four Service and trying to restore the 1268 01:12:22.239 --> 01:12:24.520 resiliency of these forests. And I think, like what I 1269 01:12:24.800 --> 01:12:27.000 the sort of nugget of goodness that I try to 1270 01:12:27.039 --> 01:12:30.159 take is that we, as you know, at least on 1271 01:12:30.199 --> 01:12:33.600 my side, the science side of this agency, we have 1272 01:12:33.640 --> 01:12:40.760 this incredible opportunity to learn about this, you know, about fires, 1273 01:12:40.760 --> 01:12:42.880 why they burn, how they burn, what their consequences are, 1274 01:12:43.359 --> 01:12:44.920 and what we can do about it. And we get 1275 01:12:44.920 --> 01:12:47.199 to work with the managers and the people who are 1276 01:12:47.439 --> 01:12:50.159 again out doing that stuff on the ground. We've got 1277 01:12:50.159 --> 01:12:52.199 our hands on some of the levers. We can make 1278 01:12:52.239 --> 01:12:54.760 a positive impact, and we can make a change in 1279 01:12:55.600 --> 01:12:58.479 you know, how these fires are burning even as we're 1280 01:12:58.479 --> 01:13:01.640 thinking about you know, these bigger problems like climate change. 1281 01:13:01.640 --> 01:13:03.319 We can put our fingers on the on the lever 1282 01:13:03.399 --> 01:13:06.199 a little bit, and so there's a huge opportunity in 1283 01:13:06.239 --> 01:13:10.760 the coming decades to make a big difference in sort 1284 01:13:10.800 --> 01:13:12.159 of the next century of fire. 1285 01:13:12.800 --> 01:13:16.279 Yeah, how do you think an average joe like myself 1286 01:13:17.439 --> 01:13:20.560 sitting around biting my nails at the news, what can 1287 01:13:20.600 --> 01:13:21.119 we do. 1288 01:13:22.560 --> 01:13:26.159 You know, I would say, follow Smokey the Bear's advice, 1289 01:13:26.239 --> 01:13:28.840 so we'll put him on the pedestal for a minute. 1290 01:13:28.880 --> 01:13:31.359 Just you know, watch out for yourself and make sure 1291 01:13:31.359 --> 01:13:34.159 that you are not contributing to any of the problems 1292 01:13:34.199 --> 01:13:37.359 with you know, these unplanned ignitions and fires. That's one 1293 01:13:37.359 --> 01:13:40.079 thing you can do. So you know, maybe try to 1294 01:13:40.159 --> 01:13:45.680 avoid you know, explosive gender reveal parties. You know, that's good. 1295 01:13:45.680 --> 01:13:49.359 Probably not do that. You know, don't be throwing your 1296 01:13:49.359 --> 01:13:52.920 cigarettes out, and don't drive your car or anything on 1297 01:13:53.000 --> 01:13:55.680 dry grass and things like that. You know, like there's 1298 01:13:55.800 --> 01:13:58.039 there's little little things like that you can do. But 1299 01:13:58.399 --> 01:14:00.560 this is a big problem and it takes both sort 1300 01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:03.520 of individuals to make sure they're you know, not starting 1301 01:14:03.560 --> 01:14:07.399 these these unplanned fires, but also these big sort of 1302 01:14:07.439 --> 01:14:12.279 institutional actions and management to fight this problem. So it's 1303 01:14:12.640 --> 01:14:14.880 you know, I would say, don't don't bite your nails 1304 01:14:14.880 --> 01:14:17.079 down to the to the bone. Just make sure you're 1305 01:14:17.079 --> 01:14:18.520 not the one who's starting that fire. 1306 01:14:19.359 --> 01:14:23.119 Okay, good to know. Don't start any fires. Don't try 1307 01:14:23.159 --> 01:14:27.479 to impress any ex girlfriends. Yes, don't buy starting fire. 1308 01:14:27.520 --> 01:14:30.000 Are going to be impressed, not going to be impressed. 1309 01:14:30.920 --> 01:14:33.600 The gender reveal party. Couple who started a fire last 1310 01:14:33.680 --> 01:14:37.399 year in November were charged with manslaughter for a firefighter's death, 1311 01:14:37.840 --> 01:14:42.079 and that lovelorn arsonist of the twenty fourteen King fire 1312 01:14:42.439 --> 01:14:46.960 sentenced twenty years in prison and ordered to somehow pay 1313 01:14:47.079 --> 01:14:50.520 sixty million dollars to victims of the crime. So imagine 1314 01:14:50.720 --> 01:14:54.640 what you could do with sixty million dollars and twenty 1315 01:14:54.760 --> 01:14:58.600 years of your life. Yeah, think twice before doing any 1316 01:14:58.680 --> 01:15:00.720 hornt up fire tumfoolery. 1317 01:15:01.319 --> 01:15:03.439 Just get it. Just get them a cupcake or something with. 1318 01:15:03.800 --> 01:15:07.560 Get them a cupcake. Do that. Don't be on the news. 1319 01:15:09.039 --> 01:15:12.520 What about your favorite thing about fire ecology, Like, is 1320 01:15:12.560 --> 01:15:15.199 it putting puzzles together? Is it being out in the field. 1321 01:15:15.359 --> 01:15:17.520 I would say my favorite part about being a fire 1322 01:15:17.520 --> 01:15:21.560 ecologist is similar to my favorite part about being a scientist, 1323 01:15:22.119 --> 01:15:26.840 which is just that we it's the world is infinitely 1324 01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:29.479 more complex than we think it is, and I learn 1325 01:15:29.640 --> 01:15:32.279 new things every day about what's going on with these 1326 01:15:32.279 --> 01:15:36.359 fires and how animals are responding. My preconceptions are always 1327 01:15:36.359 --> 01:15:38.119 just kind of blown out of the water whenever I 1328 01:15:38.159 --> 01:15:40.760 start digging into this stuff. So it's just such a 1329 01:15:40.800 --> 01:15:44.840 wonderfully rich world out there, and fire is such a 1330 01:15:44.880 --> 01:15:49.840 critical part of that whole system, and so being able 1331 01:15:49.880 --> 01:15:54.279 to step into that complexity and try and just use 1332 01:15:54.319 --> 01:15:56.720 my little you know, pick to chip away at one 1333 01:15:56.800 --> 01:15:59.680 corner of that you know, vast unknown in the world 1334 01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:03.319 of fire. Our coology is just the greatest honor and pleasure. 1335 01:16:03.840 --> 01:16:08.439 I've got three little kids, and you know, I when 1336 01:16:08.479 --> 01:16:10.680 I sit down on my computer and start clacking away 1337 01:16:10.680 --> 01:16:13.720 every day, I'm partly thinking, like, what can I do 1338 01:16:13.960 --> 01:16:17.039 to make this world better than I, you know, than 1339 01:16:17.079 --> 01:16:21.560 when I came into it. And you know, sometimes it 1340 01:16:21.600 --> 01:16:24.199 may seem that my little corner of the world is insignificant, 1341 01:16:24.199 --> 01:16:27.279 but yeah, I like to think that that me and 1342 01:16:27.319 --> 01:16:31.000 all my wonderful colleagues within my agency and outside of 1343 01:16:31.039 --> 01:16:33.920 it as well, working in this area, we're all pulling 1344 01:16:33.960 --> 01:16:36.800 in the same direction, and we're trying to you know, 1345 01:16:37.399 --> 01:16:40.920 make this world a better place as well, and get 1346 01:16:40.960 --> 01:16:46.760 that good fire back on the landscape and try and yeah, 1347 01:16:47.439 --> 01:16:48.439 change the game a little bit. 1348 01:16:48.720 --> 01:16:51.319 I love it. I appreciate it so much. I'm glad 1349 01:16:51.359 --> 01:16:53.680 that you are not currently in the middle of a 1350 01:16:53.720 --> 01:16:57.199 fire me too, And thank you for talking to me 1351 01:16:57.359 --> 01:17:02.359 during obviously a very very busy time for firefolks, It's 1352 01:17:02.399 --> 01:17:08.399 been my pleasure, so yes, fire off your birding questions 1353 01:17:08.439 --> 01:17:11.159 to the coolest nerds out there. That is what we do, 1354 01:17:11.560 --> 01:17:14.319 and stay tuned for a special follow up episode next week. 1355 01:17:14.399 --> 01:17:17.479 Cross your fingers. I can make it happen anyway. Learn 1356 01:17:17.520 --> 01:17:20.319 more about doctor Gavin Jones by following them on Twitter 1357 01:17:20.399 --> 01:17:24.319 at Ecology of Gavin. We are on there also at Ologies, 1358 01:17:24.479 --> 01:17:26.880 and I'm on there as Ali Ward with one L 1359 01:17:27.039 --> 01:17:30.079 same handles on Instagram. Come be our friends. Feel free 1360 01:17:30.119 --> 01:17:32.119 to support the show for a dollar a month if 1361 01:17:32.159 --> 01:17:35.800 you like it at patreon dot com. Slash Ologies Merch 1362 01:17:36.000 --> 01:17:39.840 is available at ologiesmerch dot com. Thank you Shannon Felts 1363 01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:41.600 and Bonnie Dutch of the podcast You Are That for 1364 01:17:41.680 --> 01:17:44.880 managing merch. Thank you Aaron Talbert for admitting the Ologies 1365 01:17:44.920 --> 01:17:47.920 podcast Facebook group. Thank you to Emily White of the 1366 01:17:47.920 --> 01:17:51.720 Wordy for making the transcripts. Caleb Patten bleeps them and 1367 01:17:51.760 --> 01:17:53.800 those are all available for free at the link in 1368 01:17:53.840 --> 01:17:57.960 the show notes. Every other Thursday we also release new Smologies. 1369 01:17:58.319 --> 01:18:03.640 They are edited down, short, clean, classroom friendly versions of 1370 01:18:03.680 --> 01:18:07.000 your favorite episodes. Thank you to Zeke Rodriguez Thomas of 1371 01:18:07.199 --> 01:18:09.960 mind Jam Media for editing those big thanks to Kelly 1372 01:18:10.039 --> 01:18:12.680 Dwyer for website design. If you need a website, She's 1373 01:18:12.720 --> 01:18:15.199 your gal link in the show notes to her. Thanks 1374 01:18:15.359 --> 01:18:18.159 Noel Dilworth and Susan Hale for keeping the schedules running 1375 01:18:18.199 --> 01:18:21.079 and for social media quizzes and merch Monday posts. Thank 1376 01:18:21.119 --> 01:18:26.039 you to Main Squeeze and Hottest Hell editor Jared Sleeper 1377 01:18:26.039 --> 01:18:28.640 of mind Jam Media for putting it all together and 1378 01:18:28.720 --> 01:18:31.720 of course longtime editing help Stephen Ray Morris of the 1379 01:18:31.720 --> 01:18:35.479 podcast The Percast and See Jurassic Right. Nick Thorburn wrote 1380 01:18:35.520 --> 01:18:38.239 and performed the theme music. He's in a band called Islands. 1381 01:18:38.239 --> 01:18:41.159 They have a new album out Ilamania And if you 1382 01:18:41.279 --> 01:18:43.159 listen to the end, you know I tell you a secret. 1383 01:18:43.199 --> 01:18:46.439 And this week's secret is sometimes if I need a 1384 01:18:46.479 --> 01:18:50.000 brain break, I'll go on Craigslist and I'll just click 1385 01:18:50.039 --> 01:18:52.439 the free section to see what people are given away, 1386 01:18:52.560 --> 01:18:54.239 so you could see things that people just put up 1387 01:18:54.279 --> 01:18:56.319 there are free, and I just sometimes like to look 1388 01:18:56.359 --> 01:18:58.319 and see what people are getting rid of, and then 1389 01:18:58.359 --> 01:19:00.640 I try to figure out, like what a life story 1390 01:19:00.640 --> 01:19:03.119 as for that, Like why is this person giving away 1391 01:19:03.159 --> 01:19:06.720 like a ballerina statue? What's up with this wheelbarrow. Let's 1392 01:19:06.720 --> 01:19:08.560 look at a couple right now? You want to Okay, okay, 1393 01:19:08.640 --> 01:19:09.560 let's see what's up there. 1394 01:19:09.760 --> 01:19:12.119 Oh, there's two guinea pigs. 1395 01:19:11.800 --> 01:19:15.039 And it just says need gone. Damn, that is the 1396 01:19:15.119 --> 01:19:17.319 meanest way to give away a guinea pig. Now, I 1397 01:19:17.399 --> 01:19:20.159 just want to get these guinea pigs. I have ten 1398 01:19:20.199 --> 01:19:22.720 guinea pigs needed for pickup. I can no longer take 1399 01:19:22.760 --> 01:19:25.000 care of them, and we'll have to release them if 1400 01:19:25.000 --> 01:19:27.760 I cannot find anyone to pick them up. Yikes, if 1401 01:19:27.760 --> 01:19:30.520 anyone needs guinea pigs in la I didn't mean to 1402 01:19:30.520 --> 01:19:34.640 make that so sad. A vintage artist portfolio case. Did 1403 01:19:34.640 --> 01:19:35.680 they quit being an artist? 1404 01:19:35.720 --> 01:19:36.079 I don't know. 1405 01:19:36.119 --> 01:19:38.840 I hope not. Oh, here's a six foot pine ladder. 1406 01:19:39.119 --> 01:19:41.279 I don't need one, but it's fun to look a 1407 01:19:41.359 --> 01:19:44.439 lot of free pianos on here. Again, I don't want 1408 01:19:44.560 --> 01:19:47.039 or need these things, but sometimes it's just nice to wonder. 1409 01:19:47.600 --> 01:19:49.680 Have that person get the piano in the first place, 1410 01:19:50.600 --> 01:19:51.279 and why don't. 1411 01:19:51.079 --> 01:19:52.079 They play it anymore? 1412 01:19:52.520 --> 01:19:56.119 Anyway? I love when people. I love when people spare 1413 01:19:56.159 --> 01:19:58.479 things from landfills and other people get things for free. 1414 01:19:58.560 --> 01:20:00.720 What can I say? Ooh, tap shoes? 1415 01:20:02.279 --> 01:20:16.840 Okay, Bryebye, pacadermistology, ambiology, r doo zoology, lithology, nethnology, meteorology, phytology, napology, seriology, melinology. 1416 01:20:22.319 --> 01:20:24.920 So how could we have avoided all of that? You're asking, 1417 01:20:25.319 --> 01:20:29.720 please enjoy indigenous fire ecology. Oh it's so good, pass 1418 01:20:29.760 --> 01:20:32.279 it on. Oh hey, it's that incense that reminds you 1419 01:20:32.279 --> 01:20:34.359 of freshman year so much that you can only smell 1420 01:20:34.399 --> 01:20:37.079 it sometimes because you don't want the nostalgia to fade. 1421 01:20:37.479 --> 01:20:40.840 Alley Ward back with a follow up as promised episode 1422 01:20:40.840 --> 01:20:44.279 of Ologies that serves as a companion piece to last 1423 01:20:44.319 --> 01:20:47.880 week's fire ecology episode. So perhaps listen to that one first, 1424 01:20:48.079 --> 01:20:51.399 come here from more context, or don't. Ultimately, none of 1425 01:20:51.399 --> 01:20:54.520 my beeswax. Okay, so just a little behind the scenes 1426 01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:57.600 on this one's format. Format is a little different than 1427 01:20:57.600 --> 01:20:59.920 what you're used to. I spoke with this oologist while 1428 01:21:00.000 --> 01:21:02.439 she was up in the wilderness of Canada on vacation, 1429 01:21:02.960 --> 01:21:05.439 and the internet was spotty. So the first ten minutes 1430 01:21:05.560 --> 01:21:07.960 or so, it's not the finest quality audio we've ever 1431 01:21:07.960 --> 01:21:10.079 had on Ologies, but we did our best. And then 1432 01:21:10.319 --> 01:21:14.680 she sent some standalone recordings answering more questions, and then 1433 01:21:14.800 --> 01:21:18.640 after the break, we're featuring excerpts from her own indigenous 1434 01:21:18.680 --> 01:21:22.039 fire ecology podcast, Good Fire with Matt Christoff, making this 1435 01:21:22.119 --> 01:21:26.000 a real community effort and a fire mosaic episode. Indeed, 1436 01:21:26.159 --> 01:21:29.479 So this Ologist got her master's and PhD and hazard 1437 01:21:29.560 --> 01:21:32.880 management and fire science and works as a fire social 1438 01:21:32.960 --> 01:21:36.239 scientist for the Canadian Forest Service. She is a Mayti 1439 01:21:36.319 --> 01:21:40.000 woman from Treaty six Territory on land now known as Canada, 1440 01:21:40.199 --> 01:21:43.720 and has authored papers such as Social Science Research on 1441 01:21:43.800 --> 01:21:47.000 Indigenous wildfire management in the twenty first century and Future 1442 01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:50.600 Research Needs. So she is well schooled on this. And 1443 01:21:50.640 --> 01:21:53.199 then I saw she has a podcast called good Fire, 1444 01:21:53.439 --> 01:21:57.199 recorded with Matt Christoff, who also hosts the Your Forest podcast. 1445 01:21:57.479 --> 01:22:00.920 So this Ologist was on vacation wanted to chat with 1446 01:22:00.920 --> 01:22:03.119 her the one week she was trying to relax, but 1447 01:22:03.159 --> 01:22:05.560 she luckily was very up to take a little break 1448 01:22:05.560 --> 01:22:09.119 and chat amid spotty internet and some techtiffs. Huge thanks 1449 01:22:09.119 --> 01:22:11.359 to Matt for getting us in touch and for lending 1450 01:22:11.439 --> 01:22:14.119 us excerpts from Your Forest and Good Fire at a future. 1451 01:22:14.199 --> 01:22:16.319 Also thank you to everyone at Patreon dot com slash 1452 01:22:16.359 --> 01:22:19.760 Ologies for making the show possible. This episode was informed 1453 01:22:19.760 --> 01:22:23.039 by the questions you left about Indigenous fire stewardship and 1454 01:22:23.079 --> 01:22:25.399 thanks to everyone who rates and reviews a podcasts. It 1455 01:22:25.439 --> 01:22:27.760 matters more than you will ever know, and I read 1456 01:22:27.800 --> 01:22:29.880 them all so I can prove it with a fresh 1457 01:22:29.920 --> 01:22:32.600 shout out for one left this week, such as Sarah 1458 01:22:32.640 --> 01:22:35.199 ib who wrote, I started listening to this podcast and 1459 01:22:35.239 --> 01:22:37.640 got to the gynecological episode and decided to make my 1460 01:22:37.720 --> 01:22:42.039 first Obgian appointment after turns out I have endometrial cancer. 1461 01:22:42.359 --> 01:22:45.159 I had a hysterectomy and I'm currently doing radiation therapy. 1462 01:22:45.199 --> 01:22:49.319 Thank you, Dad Ford for this informative podcast. Sarah, what 1463 01:22:49.319 --> 01:22:53.239 what sending you the biggest, biggest hugs and the best 1464 01:22:53.319 --> 01:22:56.359 vibes for a speedy defeat of that, and thank you 1465 01:22:56.399 --> 01:22:59.399 for getting checked out. Okay, onward to the episode at 1466 01:22:59.399 --> 01:23:02.279 Homology is Simple Indigenous means native fire has a root 1467 01:23:02.359 --> 01:23:05.479 meaning fire and ecology the study of where we live. 1468 01:23:05.840 --> 01:23:06.359 So we'll be. 1469 01:23:06.319 --> 01:23:11.560 Covering cultural burns, dripped torches, forest debris, healthy trees, the 1470 01:23:11.680 --> 01:23:16.920 legality of indigenous fire stewardship, fighting fires with strategy, napping 1471 01:23:17.000 --> 01:23:21.680 on the fire line, evacuations and more with Fire Scientists Advocate, 1472 01:23:22.039 --> 01:23:27.319 podcast host, Canadian Forest Service employee, scholar and Indigenous fire 1473 01:23:27.359 --> 01:23:29.880 ecologist doctor Amy Christiansen. 1474 01:23:48.680 --> 01:23:51.760 Yeah, no problem at all. It's great to have someone's 1475 01:23:51.960 --> 01:23:53.640 attention on this topic as well. 1476 01:23:54.119 --> 01:23:58.680 Oh, it's wonderful, wonderful to have you. So, now, are 1477 01:23:58.680 --> 01:24:00.680 you at the top of an out and right now? 1478 01:24:01.000 --> 01:24:02.039 Try to get cell service? 1479 01:24:03.199 --> 01:24:06.079 No, I'm actually at my parents' cabin, but they do 1480 01:24:06.199 --> 01:24:08.479 not have great internet. But does it sound okay? 1481 01:24:09.079 --> 01:24:10.439 Yeah, it sounds great so far. 1482 01:24:10.840 --> 01:24:14.159 Literally, they're at like the very north end of a 1483 01:24:14.239 --> 01:24:17.920 lake called Shoeshwap Lake, and currently we're actually surrounded by 1484 01:24:18.039 --> 01:24:19.359 three fires as well. 1485 01:24:20.399 --> 01:24:23.239 Oh my gosh. And is that an area that you're 1486 01:24:23.279 --> 01:24:25.119 pretty familiar with. Has your family been there for a 1487 01:24:25.119 --> 01:24:25.560 long time? 1488 01:24:25.840 --> 01:24:28.000 Yeah, my parents have this cabin that we've had in 1489 01:24:28.039 --> 01:24:30.239 our family, I think for about thirty years now. 1490 01:24:30.640 --> 01:24:34.279 Have you seen a change at all in how the 1491 01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:38.880 summers go in terms of say, being surrounded by fire. 1492 01:24:39.279 --> 01:24:41.439 So the area that we're in is actually kind of 1493 01:24:41.479 --> 01:24:45.319 a rainforest area. We always kind of jokingly refer to 1494 01:24:45.359 --> 01:24:47.439 it as that, and we used to get so much 1495 01:24:47.560 --> 01:24:50.880 rain out here in the summer. In probably the last 1496 01:24:50.960 --> 01:24:54.319 ten years, we've noticed it's been getting warmer in this 1497 01:24:54.439 --> 01:24:58.000 area and we've been getting less rain and even the cedars, 1498 01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:00.920 they're really starting to not look at how and then 1499 01:25:01.000 --> 01:25:05.239 the last probably five years, we've had more summers of smoke, 1500 01:25:05.600 --> 01:25:09.520 so it's really been Yeah, I've really noticed the change 1501 01:25:09.600 --> 01:25:11.000 just even in my lifetime. 1502 01:25:11.479 --> 01:25:15.039 And how long have you been studying fire? How long 1503 01:25:15.079 --> 01:25:16.760 had you been a fire scientist. 1504 01:25:17.239 --> 01:25:20.640 I grew up in northern Alberta. There's always kind of 1505 01:25:20.680 --> 01:25:24.159 fires around my family, although we didn't kind of have 1506 01:25:24.279 --> 01:25:28.199 the connection. We were disconnected from cultural burning practices, but 1507 01:25:28.680 --> 01:25:31.960 my family was kind of always you know, I've been 1508 01:25:32.039 --> 01:25:35.840 involved in fire and my husband's a wildland firefighter, and yeah, 1509 01:25:35.960 --> 01:25:38.279 just growing up it seemed like kind of a normal 1510 01:25:38.399 --> 01:25:41.159 thing in the north. And when I moved down south 1511 01:25:41.199 --> 01:25:44.760 to an urban center, that was when I really realized, 1512 01:25:44.840 --> 01:25:47.880 you know, that other people didn't have that, or you know, 1513 01:25:48.039 --> 01:25:51.439 we weren't so used to that. I guess I started 1514 01:25:51.720 --> 01:25:55.239 actually as a geologist, but I always loved hazards, but 1515 01:25:55.359 --> 01:25:58.199 more volcanic hazards and things that I was interested in. 1516 01:25:58.640 --> 01:26:01.199 So I did two is actually in New Zealand, where 1517 01:26:01.199 --> 01:26:04.960 I did my master's on volcanic hazard management. But you know, 1518 01:26:05.079 --> 01:26:07.399 I always kind of feel like bound to the forest 1519 01:26:07.680 --> 01:26:11.399 in Alberta, so I ended up kind of coming back, 1520 01:26:11.439 --> 01:26:14.479 and I even said to my PhD supervisor, like, you know, 1521 01:26:14.600 --> 01:26:17.479 I'll study anything but fire. You know, I don't want 1522 01:26:18.119 --> 01:26:20.680 to have fire in my life because I just, you know, 1523 01:26:20.760 --> 01:26:23.560 it was around it all the time, and wanted something different. 1524 01:26:23.600 --> 01:26:26.840 But yeah, kind of slowly got pulled back into the 1525 01:26:26.920 --> 01:26:29.960 field and yeah, I've been at the Canadian Forest Service 1526 01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:32.399 now for about ten years. 1527 01:26:32.520 --> 01:26:34.960 Just when I thought I was out, they. 1528 01:26:34.920 --> 01:26:38.359 Pulled me barking, oh my god, what is your what 1529 01:26:38.479 --> 01:26:42.159 is your work like? And have you grown to appreciate 1530 01:26:42.199 --> 01:26:45.279 it all? Are you still like a fire? Here we 1531 01:26:45.319 --> 01:26:46.720 are again, you and me fire? 1532 01:26:46.920 --> 01:26:48.680 Yeah, no, I think, yeah, it's kind of one of 1533 01:26:48.760 --> 01:26:51.600 those things you have to realize that maybe you're just 1534 01:26:51.920 --> 01:26:54.840 like I don't know, I don't want to say destined 1535 01:26:54.840 --> 01:26:57.079 to be, but you know, I think that's living in 1536 01:26:57.119 --> 01:26:59.720 the North. It's just, you know, I think that you 1537 01:26:59.800 --> 01:27:03.079 have that experience with fire and seeing it around you. 1538 01:27:03.159 --> 01:27:05.560 And that's one thing I always find interesting is when 1539 01:27:05.600 --> 01:27:09.840 I meet, you know, other fire scientists who aren't, you know, 1540 01:27:09.960 --> 01:27:12.880 from areas that experience fire, and I think sonize it's 1541 01:27:12.920 --> 01:27:16.239 maybe hard for them to relate, especially when we're talking 1542 01:27:16.279 --> 01:27:19.319 about fire risk and kind of how people act during 1543 01:27:19.319 --> 01:27:20.199 a fire event. 1544 01:27:20.680 --> 01:27:23.680 So one of doctor Christensen's areas of research and work 1545 01:27:23.800 --> 01:27:27.560 is studying evacuations, so when to leave your home with 1546 01:27:27.800 --> 01:27:30.760 just a few possessions and your life for what might 1547 01:27:30.840 --> 01:27:33.479 be the last time. And it's something that she says 1548 01:27:33.600 --> 01:27:36.520 fire scientists who haven't grown up around fire and had 1549 01:27:36.560 --> 01:27:40.159 to themselves evacuate might not understand. And if you listened 1550 01:27:40.199 --> 01:27:42.600 to last week's episode, I mentioned that my parents lived 1551 01:27:42.600 --> 01:27:46.079 in the remote Sierra Nevadas for years and coercing them 1552 01:27:46.319 --> 01:27:49.560 to evacuate during the King Fire was not easy, even 1553 01:27:49.600 --> 01:27:51.600 with the promise of a night or two at the 1554 01:27:51.640 --> 01:27:53.720 fantasy end with a mirrored ceiling. 1555 01:27:54.239 --> 01:27:56.960 When I first started on at the Canadian for Service, 1556 01:27:57.000 --> 01:28:00.520 there was like no interest really an indigenous fire management 1557 01:28:01.279 --> 01:28:05.039 or cultural burning practices or indigenous firefighters. So I would 1558 01:28:05.079 --> 01:28:08.159 say it was like a very lonely kind of first 1559 01:28:08.920 --> 01:28:12.600 five or six years. And so my colleagues are actually 1560 01:28:12.600 --> 01:28:18.640 international folks, so mainly folks from actually California and Australia 1561 01:28:18.680 --> 01:28:21.439 who are in this field as well. But I think 1562 01:28:21.520 --> 01:28:24.479 like pretty much since we've started having the big fire 1563 01:28:24.560 --> 01:28:28.199 events in Canada, that's really what's forced people to kind 1564 01:28:28.199 --> 01:28:31.000 of look at maybe a different way of looking at 1565 01:28:31.039 --> 01:28:34.840 fire on the landscape. My interest in fire is also 1566 01:28:34.960 --> 01:28:39.520 tied to like my own family's history. So my family's Mayti, 1567 01:28:39.800 --> 01:28:43.319 So we're from northern Alberta, the Cardinal and Labcan families, 1568 01:28:43.399 --> 01:28:46.800 and we kind of had like a weird kind of 1569 01:28:46.880 --> 01:28:51.239 disconnection from culture, which most Mayte families in Canada actually 1570 01:28:51.319 --> 01:28:56.359 experience during colonization. And so it's basically we weren't allowed 1571 01:28:56.399 --> 01:28:59.239 to practice any of our traditions and other things. It's 1572 01:28:59.239 --> 01:29:02.319 interesting to be because it almost parallels fire in a way. 1573 01:29:02.520 --> 01:29:05.760 So when settlers, you know, first came to Canada, one 1574 01:29:05.760 --> 01:29:07.640 of the first things that they brought with them was 1575 01:29:07.680 --> 01:29:11.960 actually fire suppression. And as they moved kind of west 1576 01:29:12.000 --> 01:29:17.239 across Canada, they basically just put into place fire suppression 1577 01:29:17.319 --> 01:29:20.640 policies wherever they went. And the big reason for that was, 1578 01:29:20.680 --> 01:29:23.720 you know, that they saw the forest of this wilderness, 1579 01:29:23.800 --> 01:29:27.600 of this kind of natural place. But really now we know, 1580 01:29:27.840 --> 01:29:30.119 like in lots of scientific studies now are pointing out 1581 01:29:30.159 --> 01:29:33.560 that that wasn't natural, like many of those areas were 1582 01:29:33.560 --> 01:29:37.239 actually stewarded by indigenous people. To look that way, Actually, 1583 01:29:37.319 --> 01:29:40.279 the first fire suppression campaign was in sixteen ten in 1584 01:29:40.319 --> 01:29:43.479 Newfoundland in Canada, where that was like kind of the 1585 01:29:43.560 --> 01:29:46.399 first you know enactment of you know, thou shelt not 1586 01:29:46.680 --> 01:29:48.760 light fires on the landscape. 1587 01:29:49.000 --> 01:29:51.840 Amy says that she's from northern Alberta and there were 1588 01:29:51.840 --> 01:29:55.680 only two fire rangers for the entire province. 1589 01:29:55.960 --> 01:30:01.239 So even though they had like a fire policy, you know, 1590 01:30:01.319 --> 01:30:04.000 those guys couldn't be everywhere obviously, so there was still 1591 01:30:04.039 --> 01:30:06.720 a lot of culture warning that went on. So I 1592 01:30:06.760 --> 01:30:09.640 would say that in where I'm from, it really only 1593 01:30:09.720 --> 01:30:12.680 kind of stopped or halted around the sixties or the 1594 01:30:12.760 --> 01:30:17.039 seventies where fire really stopped being allowed on the landscape 1595 01:30:17.079 --> 01:30:19.880 in the north. And what we've seen with that, you know, 1596 01:30:20.079 --> 01:30:23.319 is just a massive increase in fuel loading and also 1597 01:30:23.399 --> 01:30:27.359 kind of these like monoculture forests where there are the 1598 01:30:27.439 --> 01:30:32.239 stands and you know, all one species, like all similar age, 1599 01:30:32.279 --> 01:30:36.720 and they're really vulnerable to pests. There's other disturbances like fire, 1600 01:30:36.800 --> 01:30:40.319 and so we're getting these massive, big fire events that 1601 01:30:40.359 --> 01:30:43.920 have come through. And so for indigenous people, you know, 1602 01:30:44.039 --> 01:30:47.000 like my family and others, they my family were actually 1603 01:30:47.000 --> 01:30:50.880 buffalo hunters and they used fire in the buffalo hunt, 1604 01:30:50.960 --> 01:30:54.840 but also afterwards to improve the habitat for buffalo and 1605 01:30:54.920 --> 01:30:58.159 other things that to help them in their hunting. When 1606 01:30:58.279 --> 01:31:00.960 the settlers started coming across and saying like, no, you 1607 01:31:01.039 --> 01:31:03.720 can't do this, like you don't know as much as us, like, 1608 01:31:04.359 --> 01:31:07.640 you know, it really devalued indigenous people and their knowledge. 1609 01:31:07.640 --> 01:31:09.720 And then when you add into that, you know, we 1610 01:31:09.800 --> 01:31:13.760 had residential schools in Canada where indigenous people you know, 1611 01:31:13.880 --> 01:31:17.319 were sent there and basically told you know that, you know, 1612 01:31:17.560 --> 01:31:20.760 it said they were savages, that their way of knowing 1613 01:31:20.800 --> 01:31:24.199 their family, of knowing the earth wasn't proper, and you 1614 01:31:24.239 --> 01:31:26.119 know that they had to learn this new way that 1615 01:31:26.279 --> 01:31:30.199 was much better. So we, like my colleague Fives al Mulla, 1616 01:31:30.359 --> 01:31:32.520 he was telling me that they called that like a 1617 01:31:33.359 --> 01:31:37.680 cultural severance activity, where basically you're just told that, you know, 1618 01:31:38.159 --> 01:31:41.199 suddenly you know, you cannot practice your culture anymore. And 1619 01:31:41.319 --> 01:31:44.960 so the impacts of that are just massive on people, 1620 01:31:45.399 --> 01:31:49.039 not only on like, you know, their ability to use fire, 1621 01:31:49.119 --> 01:31:51.279 but also just on who they are as a person, 1622 01:31:51.560 --> 01:31:54.439 their pride and their family and other things. And so 1623 01:31:54.680 --> 01:31:56.960 I too, like even now, I still have a lot 1624 01:31:57.000 --> 01:31:59.920 of anger about that. And you know how I was 1625 01:32:00.199 --> 01:32:03.920 able to learn from my elders about landscape stewardship and 1626 01:32:03.960 --> 01:32:06.439 other things because of that, you know, like kind of 1627 01:32:06.560 --> 01:32:09.479 dominant Western worldview, do you. 1628 01:32:09.560 --> 01:32:12.760 Know or has there been research into how much of 1629 01:32:12.760 --> 01:32:14.039 that knowledge is lost? 1630 01:32:14.640 --> 01:32:14.840 Yeah? 1631 01:32:14.920 --> 01:32:17.640 So, Actually Henry and Lewis, who was a researcher, he 1632 01:32:17.680 --> 01:32:20.520 actually started in California but then was at the University 1633 01:32:20.560 --> 01:32:21.439 of Alberta. 1634 01:32:21.520 --> 01:32:26.439 Doctor Henry T. Lewis aka Hank was an anthropology professor 1635 01:32:26.520 --> 01:32:28.960 at the University of Alberta and was one of the 1636 01:32:28.960 --> 01:32:33.279 first researchers to really document indigenous fire stewardship and its 1637 01:32:33.359 --> 01:32:36.000 role in shaping the landscape. And he wrote the paper 1638 01:32:36.199 --> 01:32:38.760 A Time for Burning. It was published in nineteen eighty 1639 01:32:38.800 --> 01:32:41.720 two and a PDF to it is linked on my site. 1640 01:32:41.800 --> 01:32:45.479 It's typewritten on a typewriter. It's wild and it details 1641 01:32:45.520 --> 01:32:48.439 all of the different biomes and how indigenous cultures shaped 1642 01:32:48.439 --> 01:32:52.840 them with fire and if you're like no reading, need visuals. 1643 01:32:53.199 --> 01:32:56.880 He also made a sixteen millimeters documentary titled The Fires 1644 01:32:56.920 --> 01:32:57.439 of Spring. 1645 01:32:57.800 --> 01:32:59.920 All of this was managed by people who had dive 1646 01:33:00.079 --> 01:33:03.680 all up the complex technology of fire to assure a 1647 01:33:03.720 --> 01:33:07.159 continued successful adjustment to the Northern Royal Forest. 1648 01:33:07.399 --> 01:33:10.199 Somehow this ended up on YouTube Hank. 1649 01:33:10.319 --> 01:33:13.840 God he went up and worked with the Woodland Kreende 1650 01:33:14.359 --> 01:33:17.520 people in northern Alberta, so actually kind of where my 1651 01:33:17.640 --> 01:33:20.640 family's from as well. And what he was saying within 1652 01:33:20.720 --> 01:33:23.399 the nineteen seventies when he did his work that he 1653 01:33:23.560 --> 01:33:26.479 thought that between ninety and ninety five percent of that 1654 01:33:26.640 --> 01:33:29.760 knowledge had been lost. So I mean that was now, 1655 01:33:29.880 --> 01:33:32.039 like it's hard to believe it almost fifty years ago 1656 01:33:32.119 --> 01:33:35.039 right when that was happening. So for me, like I 1657 01:33:35.119 --> 01:33:39.479 often hear people say in meetings like you know, oh well, 1658 01:33:39.560 --> 01:33:43.520 indigenous knowledge is inapplicable to today and cultural burning practices 1659 01:33:43.600 --> 01:33:46.439 because you know, now we have climate change, like now 1660 01:33:46.479 --> 01:33:49.479 there's more values on the landscape in terms of thinking 1661 01:33:49.479 --> 01:33:53.439 about structures and other things. But I always argue against 1662 01:33:53.520 --> 01:33:58.800 that because for me, like it's not about like Indigenous people, 1663 01:33:58.880 --> 01:34:01.680 like we're alive today, we're part of the society, like 1664 01:34:01.760 --> 01:34:05.119 we see all these things, like Indigenous people are on 1665 01:34:05.159 --> 01:34:07.960 the front lines of climate change, like of course we 1666 01:34:08.239 --> 01:34:12.479 don't if that's occurring. And you know, indigenous knowledge, the 1667 01:34:12.479 --> 01:34:15.439 most beautiful thing about it is how adaptable it is 1668 01:34:15.800 --> 01:34:20.000 to the local environment. So like for like, because you 1669 01:34:20.039 --> 01:34:23.239 know you're living in that environment, you're dependent on it. 1670 01:34:23.840 --> 01:34:26.760 Okay, So Amy's internet cut out again, So we tried 1671 01:34:26.840 --> 01:34:29.039 a new way of recording just via the phone and 1672 01:34:29.079 --> 01:34:31.760 her laptop and it sounds much better, which is great, 1673 01:34:32.000 --> 01:34:34.039 so clear. In fact, you may even be able to 1674 01:34:34.119 --> 01:34:37.560 discern the pitter pattern of children's footsteps on the cabin 1675 01:34:37.600 --> 01:34:40.199 stairs as her family vacationed around her. 1676 01:34:40.800 --> 01:34:45.000 Hi, maybe this will work. I can hear you great 1677 01:34:45.239 --> 01:34:45.640 at home. 1678 01:34:45.680 --> 01:34:47.640 It's funny because I have a pretty good setup with 1679 01:34:47.640 --> 01:34:52.079 a podcasting microphone, headphones, and of course I'm like, oh, 1680 01:34:52.119 --> 01:34:53.680 it's this week when I'm gone. 1681 01:34:53.760 --> 01:34:54.760 Yeah, but no worries. 1682 01:34:55.359 --> 01:34:58.800 But where were we? Yes that indigenous fire knowledge is 1683 01:34:58.840 --> 01:35:02.800 starting to get more as climate change worsens and larger 1684 01:35:02.840 --> 01:35:07.479 fires erupt. And as a fire scientist, what is her workday? Like? 1685 01:35:08.279 --> 01:35:11.359 Sure, yeah, so with my job with this CFS, I 1686 01:35:11.920 --> 01:35:14.800 most fire research scientists, I say, kind of do the 1687 01:35:14.960 --> 01:35:18.439 same thing. So we have our research projects that we 1688 01:35:18.560 --> 01:35:20.479 run or that we're a part of, so a lot 1689 01:35:20.520 --> 01:35:23.880 of my day is actually kind of meeting about research 1690 01:35:23.960 --> 01:35:27.319 and other things that are going on. So really similar 1691 01:35:27.359 --> 01:35:30.960 to like you know, an academic researcher from a university. 1692 01:35:31.520 --> 01:35:33.520 But then as well, we also kind of have the 1693 01:35:33.560 --> 01:35:36.600 policy or the government side, So I said, on a 1694 01:35:36.640 --> 01:35:40.680 lot of like national or international committees or working groups, 1695 01:35:41.039 --> 01:35:44.119 you know, looking at fire and trying to direct policy. 1696 01:35:45.039 --> 01:35:48.760 We just recently in Canada finished the Blueprint for Wildland 1697 01:35:48.840 --> 01:35:52.880 Fire Science for twenty nineteen to twenty twenty nine, so 1698 01:35:53.039 --> 01:35:56.479 looking at you know, topics that we should really be 1699 01:35:57.600 --> 01:36:01.359 spending money basically in time doing research on. In one 1700 01:36:01.399 --> 01:36:05.279 of those the themes from that was actually on indigenous fires. 1701 01:36:05.359 --> 01:36:09.680 So we also have an evacuation database actually with the 1702 01:36:09.720 --> 01:36:14.319 Canadian Forest Service, where we've tracked wildfire evacuations in Canada 1703 01:36:14.359 --> 01:36:15.600 since nineteen eighty. 1704 01:36:16.199 --> 01:36:17.000 So during this. 1705 01:36:17.039 --> 01:36:19.479 Summer, like that's one thing is that we have like 1706 01:36:19.560 --> 01:36:22.520 lots of our staff working on that doing data entry 1707 01:36:22.520 --> 01:36:25.319 into it. Yeah, it's a big job this summer. Like 1708 01:36:25.399 --> 01:36:28.840 in twenty twenty, I think we only had twenty different 1709 01:36:28.840 --> 01:36:32.119 evacuations in Canada, but this year I think we're already 1710 01:36:32.119 --> 01:36:35.760 at one hundred and twenty five different evacuation events. So 1711 01:36:35.840 --> 01:36:37.000 it's a huge job. 1712 01:36:37.600 --> 01:36:41.279 So this Blueprint for a Wildland Fire Science in Canada 1713 01:36:41.319 --> 01:36:45.000 twenty nineteen to twenty twenty nine outlines, in its own words, 1714 01:36:45.199 --> 01:36:49.319 a business case to increase investment in wildland fire science, 1715 01:36:49.560 --> 01:36:53.239 and it is fifty seven pages really great strategies covering 1716 01:36:53.279 --> 01:36:59.239 themes like understanding fire in a changing world, recognizing indigenous knowledge, 1717 01:36:59.279 --> 01:37:02.680 and dancing knowledge exchange mechanisms to improve the ways in 1718 01:37:02.720 --> 01:37:06.479 which wildland fire science and technology are shared, understood, and implemented. 1719 01:37:06.880 --> 01:37:09.359 So Amy's team had been working on that, and for 1720 01:37:09.399 --> 01:37:11.680 the curious, I will link to the full pdf on 1721 01:37:11.680 --> 01:37:16.439 my website. Now, as far as the increasing evacuations, that 1722 01:37:16.560 --> 01:37:20.840 issue gets more personal as this episode unfolds, even more 1723 01:37:20.880 --> 01:37:23.800 personal than my parents in an hourly motel in RightNow. 1724 01:37:24.239 --> 01:37:26.239 And this is something I think a lot of people 1725 01:37:26.319 --> 01:37:30.439 have trouble wrapping their brain around. And maybe there is 1726 01:37:30.520 --> 01:37:35.279 no good answer. But is it climate change? Is it 1727 01:37:35.840 --> 01:37:42.239 human ignition and carelessness? Is it not letting the forest 1728 01:37:42.319 --> 01:37:45.800 burn as it naturally would? How do you scientists come 1729 01:37:45.880 --> 01:37:49.399 up with plans to tackle this issue? If it's kind 1730 01:37:49.399 --> 01:37:52.399 of like a trifold problem. 1731 01:37:51.800 --> 01:37:52.760 Yeah, I agree with you. 1732 01:37:52.800 --> 01:37:55.359 It's just such a complex issue. I mean, there's also 1733 01:37:55.399 --> 01:37:59.720 the fact that people are just building more in areas 1734 01:37:59.720 --> 01:38:02.399 that are of higher risk to fire, you know, as 1735 01:38:02.399 --> 01:38:05.800 communities get larger and kind of expand out into what 1736 01:38:05.920 --> 01:38:08.840 you know, some people call the wildline urban interface. It's 1737 01:38:08.920 --> 01:38:12.039 really increasing fire risks. I think that that's the hard 1738 01:38:12.079 --> 01:38:15.479 thing too, is that there's no like magic bullet solution, 1739 01:38:15.920 --> 01:38:19.399 right like even with cultural burning, like you know, I'm 1740 01:38:19.399 --> 01:38:23.000 such a strong proponent of getting that back on the ground, 1741 01:38:23.119 --> 01:38:26.079 but that doesn't at all tackle you know, how vulnerable 1742 01:38:26.119 --> 01:38:28.840 some homes and other things are to fire at the moment. 1743 01:38:29.279 --> 01:38:32.399 Climate change, she said, is also a pretty big frickin deal. 1744 01:38:32.760 --> 01:38:35.399 But the one thing you know that I think locally, 1745 01:38:35.600 --> 01:38:37.520 like you know, in our towns and stuff, that we 1746 01:38:37.640 --> 01:38:41.119 can control is the fuels that are available to burn. 1747 01:38:41.640 --> 01:38:44.840 And so that's why, you know, I think that cultural 1748 01:38:44.880 --> 01:38:48.840 burning or landscape level fuel management, as well as the 1749 01:38:48.880 --> 01:38:53.159 community wildfare mitigation is so important to do in combination. 1750 01:38:53.359 --> 01:38:55.920 And lately too, I've been seeing I don't know if 1751 01:38:55.920 --> 01:38:57.960 you are seeing in the States as much, but in 1752 01:38:58.000 --> 01:39:00.239 Canada there's a bit of a movement to just kind 1753 01:39:00.239 --> 01:39:04.359 of you know, fireproof communities or you know, keep homes 1754 01:39:04.479 --> 01:39:08.600 or you know, structures safe from fire. But to me, 1755 01:39:08.720 --> 01:39:12.560 that's really missing the point of like the landscape around 1756 01:39:12.560 --> 01:39:15.760 your home. Like for me, I don't want to be living, 1757 01:39:15.880 --> 01:39:18.680 you know, if my home is standing in like the 1758 01:39:18.680 --> 01:39:21.960 middle of you know, a black and landscaping in Canada, 1759 01:39:22.000 --> 01:39:25.920 it can take a long time for the forest to regenerate, sometimes, 1760 01:39:25.960 --> 01:39:29.039 you know, twenty thirty forty years, and even then they're 1761 01:39:29.079 --> 01:39:31.840 finding up north in the boreal forest that burns are 1762 01:39:31.880 --> 01:39:34.960 just so hot that they're basically kind of killing the 1763 01:39:35.079 --> 01:39:39.760 soil and any vegetation around. So, yeah, it's quite a 1764 01:39:39.800 --> 01:39:43.159 complex issue. But I think when I think as an 1765 01:39:43.159 --> 01:39:45.840 indigenous person, I look at the forest, I don't just 1766 01:39:45.880 --> 01:39:48.560 see it as trees or timber values or other things. 1767 01:39:48.880 --> 01:39:50.880 You see it as like part of who you are, 1768 01:39:51.000 --> 01:39:54.880 right like your relations So you want to be able to, 1769 01:39:55.000 --> 01:39:58.439 you know, steward and protect that area as much as 1770 01:39:58.479 --> 01:40:01.119 you do you know, your own home or structure. 1771 01:40:01.560 --> 01:40:06.319 And can you describe a little bit about prescribed fires 1772 01:40:06.600 --> 01:40:12.640 and indigenous fire stewardship versus cultural burns. I think a 1773 01:40:12.680 --> 01:40:14.600 lot of people maybe want to lump them in together, 1774 01:40:14.680 --> 01:40:16.600 but can you describe a little bit about how they 1775 01:40:16.640 --> 01:40:17.640 work or what they are. 1776 01:40:18.560 --> 01:40:21.039 Yeah, so there's a bit of a danger of that 1777 01:40:21.159 --> 01:40:24.199 this whole thing now where we're seeing prescribed fire and 1778 01:40:24.319 --> 01:40:28.840 just kind of throwing cultural burning into that. So prescribed 1779 01:40:28.880 --> 01:40:32.520 fire is you know generally what agencies do so where 1780 01:40:32.520 --> 01:40:36.520 they're setting fire on the landscape, but in many cases 1781 01:40:36.560 --> 01:40:39.439 they're setting you know, high severity fires. 1782 01:40:39.600 --> 01:40:41.600 It's burning really fast and they. 1783 01:40:41.600 --> 01:40:44.039 Want to burn a lot of land in a little 1784 01:40:44.039 --> 01:40:47.039 bit of time. So we see like lots of aerial 1785 01:40:47.119 --> 01:40:48.600 ignition of fires. 1786 01:40:48.680 --> 01:40:53.239 We see them using you know, basically like helicopter ignition. 1787 01:40:53.479 --> 01:40:56.520 And in Canada, like lots of times people put that 1788 01:40:56.680 --> 01:40:59.760 together as you know, being a crown fire being these big, bad, 1789 01:41:00.039 --> 01:41:02.399 kind of out of control fires that are burning up 1790 01:41:02.760 --> 01:41:06.359 you know, mountainsides. That's generally the media that we see 1791 01:41:06.399 --> 01:41:10.720 in Canada about prescribed fire, but it really differs from 1792 01:41:10.760 --> 01:41:14.720 cultural burning because cultural burning is more about achieving a 1793 01:41:14.760 --> 01:41:18.960 cultural objective around the forest around where you live. So 1794 01:41:19.000 --> 01:41:22.359 you don't really want to have these big, large, standard 1795 01:41:22.359 --> 01:41:26.199 placing fires that go through and can kill everything in 1796 01:41:26.239 --> 01:41:30.479 a prescribed fire event. That sometimes is what happens in Canada. 1797 01:41:31.119 --> 01:41:31.960 Yeah, so for. 1798 01:41:32.000 --> 01:41:34.760 Cultural fire too, the thing is that most fires are 1799 01:41:34.760 --> 01:41:38.239 actually pretty low intensity. In Australia, they call them like 1800 01:41:38.399 --> 01:41:41.520 slow burns or cool burns, and they generally move through 1801 01:41:41.560 --> 01:41:45.600 the understory and they're done it certain times of year 1802 01:41:45.680 --> 01:41:50.279 where the potential fire behavior is very low risks, so 1803 01:41:50.359 --> 01:41:52.960 you know where you're not getting, you know, potential of 1804 01:41:53.000 --> 01:41:56.520 crown fire. There's lots of natural fuel breaks around the fire. 1805 01:41:56.760 --> 01:42:00.359 In Canada that's usually snow still on the ground. For 1806 01:42:00.600 --> 01:42:03.880 Indigenous people, cultural burning too, is like a family a 1807 01:42:03.920 --> 01:42:06.800 community activity. So like when I'm doing burns and things 1808 01:42:06.880 --> 01:42:10.520 like I take my daughters. My mom was on the 1809 01:42:10.600 --> 01:42:11.840 last one that we did. 1810 01:42:12.319 --> 01:42:14.359 There's a great photo that's run in a few news 1811 01:42:14.399 --> 01:42:17.760 articles about Amy's work, and she's standing in a golden 1812 01:42:18.039 --> 01:42:21.680 grassy field. It's hazy with smoke as a cultural burn 1813 01:42:21.760 --> 01:42:25.279 grass fire she's overseeing lurches behind her, and there's a 1814 01:42:25.359 --> 01:42:28.000 husky wolfy dog sitting to her right, staring off. And 1815 01:42:28.039 --> 01:42:31.319 Amy's wearing black leggings and a red flannel shirt and 1816 01:42:31.439 --> 01:42:34.199 is pregnant with what would be her second daughter. So 1817 01:42:34.239 --> 01:42:37.760 the mood is very calm, unlike what most people's experience 1818 01:42:37.840 --> 01:42:39.720 of land on fire might be. 1819 01:42:40.319 --> 01:42:43.359 Lots of times, you know, we don't wear personal protective equipment, 1820 01:42:43.439 --> 01:42:45.520 you know, like the kind of gnomes that you usually 1821 01:42:45.560 --> 01:42:50.159 see firefighters wearing, because usually the fires are honestly just 1822 01:42:50.319 --> 01:42:53.880 so slow and most people find them I think a 1823 01:42:53.920 --> 01:42:54.520 bit boring. 1824 01:42:54.600 --> 01:42:55.880 Too, because it can take a. 1825 01:42:55.800 --> 01:42:59.239 Really long time to burn a really small piece of land, 1826 01:42:59.800 --> 01:43:03.000 and so for agencies it doesn't really work well, right 1827 01:43:03.079 --> 01:43:06.319 because that for them means more staffing, dollars and other 1828 01:43:06.399 --> 01:43:10.119 things to achieve, like you know, a smaller area burned. 1829 01:43:10.640 --> 01:43:11.760 Yeah, when it comes to. 1830 01:43:13.239 --> 01:43:17.399 How much fuel is in some of the forests, now 1831 01:43:18.279 --> 01:43:22.319 that would be too much for say a prescribed burn 1832 01:43:22.479 --> 01:43:26.159 maybe to tackle. I'm reading like there's so much you know, 1833 01:43:26.279 --> 01:43:28.800 dead timber and fall and timber because we've suppressed fire 1834 01:43:28.840 --> 01:43:32.279 for so long, Like where does fire management even begin 1835 01:43:32.560 --> 01:43:34.319 to kind of tackle that issue? 1836 01:43:35.520 --> 01:43:37.560 Yeah, it's it is a big issue, and I think 1837 01:43:37.560 --> 01:43:40.520 people often get overwhelmed, Like I just hear you know 1838 01:43:40.600 --> 01:43:41.119 all the time. 1839 01:43:41.159 --> 01:43:42.399 Oh, it's so complex. 1840 01:43:42.520 --> 01:43:45.880 There's so many things and so many people's competing values. 1841 01:43:45.920 --> 01:43:48.640 But I think that we often lose the focus on 1842 01:43:48.840 --> 01:43:53.760 like local communities. So in Canada, our first nations have reserves. 1843 01:43:53.920 --> 01:43:57.600 And so if you go on to a reserve, many times, 1844 01:43:57.640 --> 01:43:59.720 like when you speak to the elders and other people 1845 01:43:59.760 --> 01:44:02.359 like this, they know what needs to be done in 1846 01:44:02.399 --> 01:44:05.720 their area, Like they know if certain areas are too 1847 01:44:05.800 --> 01:44:08.439 fuel loaded, and you know, they want to go in 1848 01:44:08.479 --> 01:44:12.960 there and kind of mechanically treat the forests, so you know, 1849 01:44:13.000 --> 01:44:16.399 by using machines and labor to go in and do 1850 01:44:16.560 --> 01:44:19.640 thinning and other things before they can burn, to kind 1851 01:44:19.680 --> 01:44:23.159 of keep the fuel load low in those areas. So 1852 01:44:23.199 --> 01:44:25.600 I think for me, that's the biggest thing is that 1853 01:44:25.800 --> 01:44:28.039 we really need to go back to kind of these 1854 01:44:28.159 --> 01:44:31.159 local solutions to fire. And that's really kind of what 1855 01:44:31.199 --> 01:44:34.199 our research is showing that, you know, local people want 1856 01:44:34.239 --> 01:44:37.760 to be involved, so you know, I talk mostly about 1857 01:44:37.760 --> 01:44:41.399 indigenous peoples, but you know, ranchers, farmers, other people who 1858 01:44:41.479 --> 01:44:45.359 you know use the landscape for their livelihood, they also 1859 01:44:45.520 --> 01:44:48.520 you know, really want to have a healthy forest and 1860 01:44:48.720 --> 01:44:52.279 environment around them, and they know the areas too, and 1861 01:44:52.319 --> 01:44:55.800 even forestry companies. Like the one nice thing about cultural 1862 01:44:55.840 --> 01:44:58.920 burning is that because we're doing kind of these low 1863 01:44:59.039 --> 01:45:02.199 understory burns, like we don't want to burn the nice, big, 1864 01:45:02.279 --> 01:45:06.359 healthy trees, right because those are so important for cultural 1865 01:45:06.399 --> 01:45:10.119 activities and for other other like our relations other animals. 1866 01:45:10.159 --> 01:45:13.439 It's actually really nicely works together because you kind of 1867 01:45:13.520 --> 01:45:17.199 can get cultural burns going through and really removing some 1868 01:45:17.319 --> 01:45:20.720 of that dead fall and promoting those healthy big tree 1869 01:45:20.800 --> 01:45:23.479 growth that like the timber companies love. 1870 01:45:23.640 --> 01:45:28.199 And obviously this is something that is a family issue 1871 01:45:28.239 --> 01:45:30.560 for you two, having you know, being married to someone 1872 01:45:30.600 --> 01:45:31.840 who is a firefighter. 1873 01:45:32.000 --> 01:45:32.840 At what point did you. 1874 01:45:32.800 --> 01:45:36.479 Decide to spread the word about good fire? And the 1875 01:45:36.640 --> 01:45:39.920 term good fire too is something that I'm I kind 1876 01:45:39.920 --> 01:45:42.319 of just learned too. Can you can you talk a 1877 01:45:42.319 --> 01:45:43.920 little bit about what good fire is? 1878 01:45:44.319 --> 01:45:44.560 Sure? 1879 01:45:44.640 --> 01:45:47.680 So if good fire I think comes just from the 1880 01:45:47.760 --> 01:45:50.479 idea that you know, it's very obvious that we can 1881 01:45:50.600 --> 01:45:53.880 have good fires on the landscape. You know that fire 1882 01:45:54.079 --> 01:45:57.479 is something that is helpful to the environment and to people. 1883 01:45:58.079 --> 01:46:00.840 And so I think indigenous people lots of times see 1884 01:46:01.039 --> 01:46:03.520 fire almost in a dichotomy, so kind of, you know, 1885 01:46:03.560 --> 01:46:06.800 these bad fires and then the good fire that we 1886 01:46:06.920 --> 01:46:10.680 can use as a tools. But before colonization, indigenous people 1887 01:46:10.720 --> 01:46:14.119 would use fire on the landscape in good ways. But 1888 01:46:14.199 --> 01:46:17.920 then also we did have lightning fires obviously back then, right, 1889 01:46:18.039 --> 01:46:21.199 but they would come across the landscape and kind of 1890 01:46:21.359 --> 01:46:25.720 enter into this mosaic landscape that these indigenous ferns and 1891 01:46:25.800 --> 01:46:30.319 other lightning caused fires like, and so as they would 1892 01:46:30.399 --> 01:46:33.199 enter them, then the fire behavior would change. So as 1893 01:46:33.239 --> 01:46:36.960 you know, it entered a meadow, the fire intensity might decrease, 1894 01:46:36.960 --> 01:46:38.680 and then it would go back into the forest and 1895 01:46:38.720 --> 01:46:41.800 maybe increase, and then it would hit like a deciduous 1896 01:46:41.800 --> 01:46:44.800 stand of trees and go down again. And so this 1897 01:46:44.960 --> 01:46:49.039 mosaic or patchwork on the landscape was actually really helpful 1898 01:46:49.159 --> 01:46:52.680 for fire to kind of decrease the intensity of these 1899 01:46:52.720 --> 01:46:55.960 fire events. But what we're seeing right now is because 1900 01:46:56.000 --> 01:46:59.079 we've been suppressing those fire events, there's just so much 1901 01:46:59.159 --> 01:47:03.000 fuel in the that we're seeing these bad fires. So 1902 01:47:03.159 --> 01:47:06.039 even like I'm thinking, like the Dixie Fire in California 1903 01:47:06.119 --> 01:47:09.760 right now, or we have like multiple fires in Canada 1904 01:47:10.279 --> 01:47:13.520 at the moment too that are bad fires. Like lots 1905 01:47:13.560 --> 01:47:15.319 of times, you know, we look at and say, oh, 1906 01:47:15.399 --> 01:47:19.560 fire is natural, there's good ecologic benefits. But for me, 1907 01:47:19.680 --> 01:47:23.119 there's nothing good about these current fires happening right now. 1908 01:47:23.600 --> 01:47:26.199 So at this point, our FaceTime call cut out because 1909 01:47:26.199 --> 01:47:29.640 of spotty internet. So Amy recorded a clip answering a 1910 01:47:29.640 --> 01:47:32.840 few more questions because she is the best and knew 1911 01:47:32.880 --> 01:47:34.880 that we only had a few days until this went up, 1912 01:47:35.079 --> 01:47:36.800 and she's once again the best. 1913 01:47:37.279 --> 01:47:40.279 I also just wanted to mention the importance of indigenous 1914 01:47:40.359 --> 01:47:44.800 people in fire in Canada, but also in other countries. 1915 01:47:44.840 --> 01:47:47.960 You know, We often think about Indigenous people in fire 1916 01:47:48.039 --> 01:47:50.199 management as something that happened in the past. But we 1917 01:47:50.279 --> 01:47:54.800 have a lot of amazing Indigenous firefighters in Canada, Indigenous 1918 01:47:54.840 --> 01:47:57.720 fire managers and other people who are really you know, 1919 01:47:57.920 --> 01:48:01.520 on the front lines trying to bring that good fire 1920 01:48:01.720 --> 01:48:06.199 and indigenous fire stewardship and really out there every summer 1921 01:48:06.359 --> 01:48:10.319 kind of protecting our communities from these bad fires. And 1922 01:48:10.920 --> 01:48:13.439 especially in Canada, lots of times there we don't give 1923 01:48:13.560 --> 01:48:17.680 enough attention, I think to those indigenous firefighters. Lots of 1924 01:48:17.720 --> 01:48:20.680 times they're kept kind of from progressing in their careers 1925 01:48:20.720 --> 01:48:24.880 because they might not have the appropriate Western education levels, 1926 01:48:24.960 --> 01:48:27.960 you know, a degree or a diploma or something, but 1927 01:48:28.159 --> 01:48:31.560 they have you know, might have twenty thirty forty years 1928 01:48:31.680 --> 01:48:36.680 experience of being on the fire and so knowledgeable and incredible. 1929 01:48:37.239 --> 01:48:38.760 And I think, you know, lots of times we need 1930 01:48:38.800 --> 01:48:42.039 to look at where Western science as well got some 1931 01:48:42.119 --> 01:48:45.640 of its ideas. Like I've spoken to many elders who've 1932 01:48:45.640 --> 01:48:49.119 told me about drip torches and how they would use 1933 01:48:49.399 --> 01:48:53.159 tree limbs and sap to create their own drip torches. 1934 01:48:53.359 --> 01:48:55.920 That's what their ancestors did, and how they would spread 1935 01:48:56.000 --> 01:48:58.039 fire across the landscape. 1936 01:48:58.119 --> 01:48:58.920 Was in doing that. 1937 01:48:59.119 --> 01:49:01.800 So now you know it's all canister with fuel in it, 1938 01:49:02.119 --> 01:49:05.279 but it's kind of the same idea that indigenous people's 1939 01:49:05.399 --> 01:49:09.680 had about how to use fire properly on the land, 1940 01:49:10.039 --> 01:49:14.319 and just this incredible knowledge base and people in the communities, 1941 01:49:14.319 --> 01:49:17.640 you know, had roles In Canada, some nations actually had 1942 01:49:17.840 --> 01:49:21.279 families that were fire keepers. There were many people who 1943 01:49:21.359 --> 01:49:24.720 knew about fire and had knowledge about fire activity. 1944 01:49:25.039 --> 01:49:27.199 After the break, you'll hear a clip from Good Fire 1945 01:49:27.279 --> 01:49:31.439 podcast hosts Amy Christensen and Matt Christoff talking about Indigenous 1946 01:49:31.520 --> 01:49:35.399 firefighters experience on the fire line, and I admit I 1947 01:49:35.439 --> 01:49:39.239 found this discussion hilarious. But before that, remember Henry T. 1948 01:49:39.399 --> 01:49:42.720 Lewis Hank the anthropologist who wrote A Time for Burning 1949 01:49:42.840 --> 01:49:45.840 and made that Fires of Spring film. So the retro 1950 01:49:46.000 --> 01:49:49.600 sixteen millimeter film aesthetics are far from the coolest thing 1951 01:49:49.760 --> 01:49:51.079 about his fireworks. 1952 01:49:51.399 --> 01:49:53.680 One of the coolest things I think from Henry Lewis's 1953 01:49:53.680 --> 01:49:56.560 work was when he was speaking to woodland crean Dana 1954 01:49:56.680 --> 01:50:00.039 elders about how they would use fire to melt the 1955 01:50:00.079 --> 01:50:02.399 frost in the ground. And I've seen actually a few 1956 01:50:02.520 --> 01:50:06.119 kind of Western science studies lately on that, but that's 1957 01:50:06.159 --> 01:50:10.439 actually an older technique that the communities would use. So 1958 01:50:10.720 --> 01:50:13.279 you get kind of all the dry grass on top 1959 01:50:13.319 --> 01:50:16.199 of a meadow or something, and they would go and 1960 01:50:16.239 --> 01:50:19.000 burn that in the really early spring, because that's the 1961 01:50:19.039 --> 01:50:22.479 most important thing about indigenous burning is the time to burn, 1962 01:50:22.920 --> 01:50:26.119 when it's safe to do a good fire, and they 1963 01:50:26.119 --> 01:50:29.760 would that would then turn that level that grass into 1964 01:50:29.880 --> 01:50:32.439 you know, black, and so the black would absorb the 1965 01:50:32.439 --> 01:50:34.560 heat of the sun and then start to melt the 1966 01:50:34.600 --> 01:50:37.600 frosts out of the ground in the early spring, and 1967 01:50:37.840 --> 01:50:41.359 that would give you much like earlier green shoots and 1968 01:50:41.399 --> 01:50:45.079 green grass coming up that then moves deer other things 1969 01:50:45.079 --> 01:50:48.039 could come in and eat for in that area, so 1970 01:50:48.079 --> 01:50:50.399 it would make your hunting or other things a lot 1971 01:50:50.439 --> 01:50:53.920 easier to do. So yeah, I think that that's those 1972 01:50:53.960 --> 01:50:56.159 are things you know that and there's probably so much 1973 01:50:56.199 --> 01:50:59.960 more out there that we don't even know that community 1974 01:51:00.640 --> 01:51:04.239 used and how they would use fire in a good way. 1975 01:51:04.600 --> 01:51:06.920 And I mean if people are interested as well. You know, 1976 01:51:07.039 --> 01:51:10.399 Frank Lake, I think is probably one of the first 1977 01:51:10.520 --> 01:51:13.920 kind of fire ecologists who also is an indigenous man, 1978 01:51:14.359 --> 01:51:17.960 who you know, saw very early the importance of indigenous 1979 01:51:18.000 --> 01:51:21.199 fire knowledge and bringing it and He's written some really 1980 01:51:21.279 --> 01:51:26.119 great publications that I think for people who are eye opening, 1981 01:51:26.239 --> 01:51:28.560 you know, about how we can use fire in a 1982 01:51:28.600 --> 01:51:30.880 good way on the landscape and. 1983 01:51:30.920 --> 01:51:34.000 To hear an earload of other incredible indigenous voices in 1984 01:51:34.039 --> 01:51:37.079 fire ecology. We want to subscribe to Good Fire. It's 1985 01:51:37.079 --> 01:51:39.800 a podcast series by Amy and Matt, and we are 1986 01:51:39.840 --> 01:51:42.840 featuring audio from a discussion as they launched good Fire 1987 01:51:42.880 --> 01:51:45.560 in twenty nineteen. They were gracious enough to let us 1988 01:51:45.600 --> 01:51:48.319 steal some clips to round out the conversation amid our 1989 01:51:48.359 --> 01:51:51.000 tech issues this week, and as it turned out, Amy 1990 01:51:51.000 --> 01:51:54.520 and I had further trouble connecting because those three fires 1991 01:51:54.560 --> 01:51:57.359 that she mentioned around her family cabin got bigger and 1992 01:51:57.399 --> 01:52:01.039 they were forced to evacuate from their vacant So yes, 1993 01:52:01.239 --> 01:52:04.920 her work is timely and personal, and she literally wrote 1994 01:52:04.920 --> 01:52:09.000 the book on this, a volume titled First Nations Wildfire Evacuations, 1995 01:52:09.079 --> 01:52:13.680 a Guide for Communities and External Agencies, alongside Tara McGee 1996 01:52:13.760 --> 01:52:17.000 and First Nations Wildfire Evacuation Partnership. So I'm going to 1997 01:52:17.039 --> 01:52:18.640 link to that in the show notes as well. Now 1998 01:52:18.680 --> 01:52:20.560 in her name, we're donating this week to a cause 1999 01:52:20.600 --> 01:52:22.319 of her choosing and she asked her to go to 2000 01:52:22.720 --> 01:52:28.399 Indigenous Residential School Survivors THAT'SRSSS dot CA. For over twenty 2001 01:52:28.479 --> 01:52:31.159 years they've assisted First Nation peoples in British Columbia to 2002 01:52:31.279 --> 01:52:36.000 recognize and be holistically empowered from the primary and generational 2003 01:52:36.039 --> 01:52:40.520 effect of the residential schools by supporting research, education, awareness, 2004 01:52:40.640 --> 01:52:44.680 establishing partnerships and advocating for justice and healing. And the 2005 01:52:45.119 --> 01:52:50.560 society asss survivors with counseling, court support, information, referrals, workshops 2006 01:52:50.560 --> 01:52:54.119 and more. And you can find out more at IRSSS 2007 01:52:54.159 --> 01:52:56.520 dot Ca. There's a link in the show notes. And 2008 01:52:56.600 --> 01:52:59.920 in Canada, consider participating in Orange Shirt Day on September thirty. 2009 01:53:00.239 --> 01:53:04.039 It's also known as National Day for Truth and Reconciliation. Okay, 2010 01:53:04.079 --> 01:53:06.319 So that donation was made possible by some sponsors of 2011 01:53:06.399 --> 01:53:06.680 the show. 2012 01:53:07.680 --> 01:53:12.359 Bionantma got boga on the hartnir the Hola, the Heymen, 2013 01:53:12.640 --> 01:53:19.239 he call ah Ersen Ors Lance Ladeni, the tain Nudovshutarhu 2014 01:53:19.680 --> 01:53:23.640 la Hula shrumparods on Udros Ors, lance Is Phaser, lad 2015 01:53:23.680 --> 01:53:29.800 Gun's throw, Tasha Tapa Sernashka, august nav Is FuGO more 2016 01:53:30.800 --> 01:53:34.520 heyrick h I. A punk ie is called lala on 2017 01:53:34.600 --> 01:53:36.720 Tudoros or ras lense if we realt this in. 2018 01:53:36.640 --> 01:53:37.279 The heron. 2019 01:53:38.760 --> 01:53:43.199 And so many of you patrons asked about indigenous fire management, namely, 2020 01:53:43.359 --> 01:53:45.399 and I'll list you all off at once, very quickly. 2021 01:53:45.600 --> 01:53:49.520 Cameron Brown, Doug potential future fire ourcologist, rown In Jackie, Crisperhoer, 2022 01:53:49.600 --> 01:53:53.520 Kimberly Hoffman, Ellen Skelton, Thomas and Wyndham, Brianna Freeman, Justin Roberts, 2023 01:53:53.520 --> 01:53:58.239 Anthony Willis, Dnnell O'Neill, and Alexandra Quetul. And because our 2024 01:53:58.239 --> 01:54:00.439 time chatting was cut short again, we're so honored and 2025 01:54:00.520 --> 01:54:03.239 lucky to feature relevant clips from a conversation with The 2026 01:54:03.279 --> 01:54:05.880 Good Fire podcast host Amy Christensen and her co host 2027 01:54:06.000 --> 01:54:08.920 Matt Christoph. Okay, here Amy is talking to Matt about 2028 01:54:09.000 --> 01:54:10.119 fears of fire. 2029 01:54:10.239 --> 01:54:13.439 Even in our indigenous communities, Like lots of people are 2030 01:54:13.479 --> 01:54:16.800 now worried about fire and scared of fire. And I 2031 01:54:16.840 --> 01:54:19.880 think so for me, when I come across people like 2032 01:54:19.960 --> 01:54:21.560 you know that kind of have that tendency to think 2033 01:54:21.600 --> 01:54:23.640 of fire as bad, I always say, you know, well, 2034 01:54:23.680 --> 01:54:25.680 there's good fire, and that's kind of you know the 2035 01:54:25.760 --> 01:54:29.039 name from the podcast, so you know, when we're doing 2036 01:54:29.079 --> 01:54:32.840 these kind of good fires, it's basically it's not a wildfire, 2037 01:54:32.880 --> 01:54:35.840 it's totally different. Most Indigenous people want to bring back 2038 01:54:35.920 --> 01:54:39.279 burning right and bring back that cultural practice to their 2039 01:54:39.359 --> 01:54:43.000 landscape because most elders, when they look at the forest, 2040 01:54:43.039 --> 01:54:45.159 the first thing that they say is that it's unhealthy 2041 01:54:45.199 --> 01:54:48.039 and that it needs cleaning up. When I first started 2042 01:54:48.079 --> 01:54:50.359 working a bunch of elders, I'd always hear this cleaning 2043 01:54:50.439 --> 01:54:53.119 up phrase, cleaning up, And you know, it took a 2044 01:54:53.159 --> 01:54:55.600 while till I realized that, you know, that meant fire 2045 01:54:55.960 --> 01:54:57.800 that they want it, because you know, you don't normally 2046 01:54:57.840 --> 01:54:59.239 think of that. You think like, oh, go out with 2047 01:54:59.279 --> 01:55:01.079 the rake or st like Donald. 2048 01:55:00.720 --> 01:55:01.960 Trump thinks that we're doing. 2049 01:55:02.520 --> 01:55:04.399 But you know, it was actually, you know that they 2050 01:55:04.479 --> 01:55:07.319 wanted to use fire to kind of clean up all 2051 01:55:07.319 --> 01:55:10.920 that dead litter on the forest floor. So they just 2052 01:55:10.960 --> 01:55:13.880 want to do that again in their territory. But I 2053 01:55:13.920 --> 01:55:17.159 think they also realize that because of the fire suppression 2054 01:55:17.199 --> 01:55:20.000 that we've had over the last you know, fifty to 2055 01:55:20.319 --> 01:55:23.079 three hundred years, depending where you are in Canada, Yeah, 2056 01:55:23.079 --> 01:55:25.840 that it's not that easy just to bring back our 2057 01:55:25.840 --> 01:55:30.840 burning practices right, because we burned on intervals, so depending 2058 01:55:30.840 --> 01:55:33.119 on where you were, you know, if you were burning 2059 01:55:33.119 --> 01:55:35.479 a meadow, you might burn the meadow every three years 2060 01:55:35.680 --> 01:55:38.079 if you're burning like you know, an old growth forest, 2061 01:55:38.119 --> 01:55:40.119 and you might burn every twenty years. Like you know, 2062 01:55:40.159 --> 01:55:43.640 it just depended on what you were burning or what 2063 01:55:43.720 --> 01:55:46.760 objective you are trying to achieve. So you know, we 2064 01:55:46.840 --> 01:55:49.439 and now we've excluded fire, So I mean the litter 2065 01:55:49.640 --> 01:55:52.159 and the build up of fuel is crazy. So I 2066 01:55:52.199 --> 01:55:54.760 think like now most of the elders I talked to, 2067 01:55:54.800 --> 01:55:56.600 if they say, like if we went and tried to 2068 01:55:56.640 --> 01:55:58.800 do this now, like we would basically burn down the 2069 01:55:58.840 --> 01:56:01.800 forest because we'd be trying to start a low intensity burned, 2070 01:56:01.800 --> 01:56:04.359 but there's just too much fuel on the on the floor, 2071 01:56:04.960 --> 01:56:07.319 so it would immediately like escalate. 2072 01:56:07.600 --> 01:56:11.880 So how do indigenous fire scientists and wildlands firefighters approach 2073 01:56:12.000 --> 01:56:15.720 these really different schools of thought? Any explains to Matt. 2074 01:56:16.079 --> 01:56:18.199 We call it like two eyed seeing. So that's kind 2075 01:56:18.239 --> 01:56:19.720 of the new concept that's come up. 2076 01:56:19.760 --> 01:56:22.399 So that's like, you know, where as indigenous people or 2077 01:56:22.399 --> 01:56:24.279 even as non indigenous, like you know, you're looking at 2078 01:56:24.279 --> 01:56:26.800 the world through one eye, through your western perspective, right 2079 01:56:26.840 --> 01:56:28.479 because we're all trained in that. 2080 01:56:28.560 --> 01:56:29.319 You know, like there's not. 2081 01:56:29.840 --> 01:56:32.279 There's very few people that you know are born and 2082 01:56:32.359 --> 01:56:34.520 raised in the bush and have that kind of only 2083 01:56:34.560 --> 01:56:37.760 subsistence lifestyle. But then out of the other eye, you know, 2084 01:56:37.840 --> 01:56:40.439 you can see with your indigenous eye, right, so you 2085 01:56:40.479 --> 01:56:43.239 can see, you know, how you know where things could 2086 01:56:43.279 --> 01:56:45.039 be better. And I think for me that's where fire 2087 01:56:45.159 --> 01:56:48.319 management comes in because you know, I'm trained from the 2088 01:56:48.359 --> 01:56:52.840 Western perspective, but I think you know, from like culture 2089 01:56:52.920 --> 01:56:55.279 then like you know, there's things that Indigenous people do 2090 01:56:55.439 --> 01:56:58.119 or know better. And you know, for me, part of 2091 01:56:58.199 --> 01:57:00.520 my job is, you know, advocating for that and trying 2092 01:57:00.600 --> 01:57:03.479 so you know, it's not saying like drop all Western 2093 01:57:03.640 --> 01:57:07.359 science around fire, right, we need that, we need that too, 2094 01:57:07.439 --> 01:57:11.199 But then indigenous people and our cultures also no ways 2095 01:57:11.279 --> 01:57:13.720 you know for making the forest healthy. So to me, 2096 01:57:13.840 --> 01:57:16.359 if you bring those two together, it makes like you 2097 01:57:16.359 --> 01:57:17.840 know what I mean, it's then you have like an 2098 01:57:17.840 --> 01:57:21.239 incredible knowledge base that you're coming from, right. 2099 01:57:21.560 --> 01:57:23.840 Ah, the firefighter stories I promised you. 2100 01:57:24.119 --> 01:57:27.319 One example is like talking to firefighters. So there's this 2101 01:57:27.319 --> 01:57:30.399 one guy who is a non like a non indigenous firefighter. 2102 01:57:30.520 --> 01:57:32.439 So it's kind of funny up on the you know, 2103 01:57:32.600 --> 01:57:34.520 the fire crews, there lots of that. 2104 01:57:34.640 --> 01:57:35.720 There's like thirty or. 2105 01:57:35.560 --> 01:57:38.399 Forty year indigenous firefighters that have been on the fire 2106 01:57:38.439 --> 01:57:40.600 line a long time, and they say, you know, these 2107 01:57:40.680 --> 01:57:43.680 new kids, like university grads come up and start telling 2108 01:57:43.720 --> 01:57:45.800 them what to do. So this one guy was actually 2109 01:57:45.840 --> 01:57:47.640 telling me that he, you know, he started out of 2110 01:57:47.880 --> 01:57:51.039 university as kind of a fire boss and went up 2111 01:57:51.079 --> 01:57:53.520 on the one line and he had these native crews, 2112 01:57:53.560 --> 01:57:55.279 and he said he was that he thought they were 2113 01:57:55.319 --> 01:57:57.800 the laziest people in the world because he's like, they 2114 01:57:57.800 --> 01:57:59.760 would get up in the morning and work a little bit, 2115 01:57:59.760 --> 01:58:01.920 but and he's like, then they nap all day and 2116 01:58:01.960 --> 01:58:04.079 then like in the in the bush, you know. And 2117 01:58:04.079 --> 01:58:05.720 then he's like, but then you know, they would get 2118 01:58:05.800 --> 01:58:07.800 up and kind of work all night. And then he's 2119 01:58:07.840 --> 01:58:10.760 like and then I started like really looking and watching 2120 01:58:10.760 --> 01:58:13.000 what they were doing. And he said that. Then one 2121 01:58:13.079 --> 01:58:14.800 of the guys came up and told him, like, we 2122 01:58:14.880 --> 01:58:17.680 fight the fire when it's the weakest, because we see 2123 01:58:17.720 --> 01:58:20.319 fire as a living being. And why would you fight 2124 01:58:20.439 --> 01:58:22.800 something at the height of its day, you know, like 2125 01:58:22.840 --> 01:58:25.800 at two pm on a really sunny, hot day with 2126 01:58:25.920 --> 01:58:28.960 high winds, right, like, why would you do anything? Right, 2127 01:58:29.039 --> 01:58:31.399 Like the fire can just jump or yeah, you know, 2128 01:58:31.520 --> 01:58:33.720 but if you you know, fight it in the morning 2129 01:58:33.720 --> 01:58:36.840 when it's the weakest, or in the evening or overnight. 2130 01:58:37.439 --> 01:58:40.560 High and the temperature is low, and so the activities. 2131 01:58:40.199 --> 01:58:40.840 Yeah, decrease. 2132 01:58:40.880 --> 01:58:43.279 Yeah, and everyone, well I should say generally now with 2133 01:58:43.319 --> 01:58:46.439 climate change, who knows, but generally fire activity decreases at night. 2134 01:58:46.520 --> 01:58:46.680 Right. 2135 01:58:46.760 --> 01:58:49.560 So Sony's but that these guys have got that not 2136 01:58:49.640 --> 01:58:53.079 from textbooks, but from years of being out and watching fires, 2137 01:58:53.479 --> 01:58:56.159 so I think. And so he was saying, like to me, 2138 01:58:56.359 --> 01:58:59.479 like this non indigenous kid, that that it was just 2139 01:58:59.600 --> 01:59:02.039 amazing thing to see that because he didn't learn any 2140 01:59:02.079 --> 01:59:04.720 of that in school. And so for him, he said, 2141 01:59:04.720 --> 01:59:06.960 he learned more that summer working with the native crews 2142 01:59:07.000 --> 01:59:10.520 about fire than going to school. Basically not to say, 2143 01:59:10.640 --> 01:59:15.039 you know, don't stay in school, kids, but like because 2144 01:59:15.359 --> 01:59:17.680 that's important too, but you know, there's other ways and 2145 01:59:17.960 --> 01:59:21.720 other things to learn as well about about fire. Lots 2146 01:59:21.760 --> 01:59:23.920 of the indigenous fire guys they'd always tell me. One 2147 01:59:23.960 --> 01:59:26.520 of the funniest things is like the when the fire 2148 01:59:26.600 --> 01:59:29.039 season first starts in like in Cree, the word for 2149 01:59:29.119 --> 01:59:32.520 white boy or whatever moonew. So they say, like, oh, 2150 01:59:32.560 --> 01:59:34.319 it's so funny. One like the mooneal come on the 2151 01:59:34.319 --> 01:59:36.640 fire because he's like, they're all just doing selfies with 2152 01:59:36.680 --> 01:59:39.119 the fire in the background, and he's like and we're 2153 01:59:39.159 --> 01:59:41.680 all like, you know, actually working, and he's like and 2154 01:59:41.760 --> 01:59:42.680 you look and all the. 2155 01:59:42.680 --> 01:59:45.039 Moonya are just lined up way away from the fire 2156 01:59:45.159 --> 01:59:45.920 take itself. 2157 01:59:46.920 --> 01:59:48.760 And then it was funny because then I started seeing 2158 01:59:48.800 --> 01:59:49.800 on Facebook, like. 2159 01:59:49.920 --> 01:59:52.640 Lots of people on Instagram. 2160 01:59:52.880 --> 01:59:55.119 Yeah, but I think that that's like just maybe a 2161 01:59:55.159 --> 01:59:57.039 bit of and it's kind of more of like because 2162 01:59:57.279 --> 01:59:59.760 for Indigenous people, it's more of a lifestyle, right, so 2163 01:59:59.800 --> 02:00:03.439 the they've been doing that that so it's it's a 2164 02:00:03.479 --> 02:00:06.159 great career for indigenous people because they can go out 2165 02:00:06.560 --> 02:00:08.880 in the summer, make money, be on the land, and 2166 02:00:08.920 --> 02:00:10.800 then in the winter they can go and like run 2167 02:00:10.840 --> 02:00:14.199 their chaplines or hunt, be with their families and like 2168 02:00:14.279 --> 02:00:16.079 kind of participate in their their culture. 2169 02:00:16.239 --> 02:00:16.800 Yeah. 2170 02:00:16.880 --> 02:00:18.800 So I think that that's why it's become like kind 2171 02:00:18.840 --> 02:00:22.520 of a nice lifestyle for certain people. 2172 02:00:22.600 --> 02:00:22.800 Yeah. 2173 02:00:22.880 --> 02:00:23.560 Yeah, sure. 2174 02:00:23.680 --> 02:00:26.560 So how do agencies and nations work together? How can 2175 02:00:26.640 --> 02:00:30.399 ecologists and fire keepers spark those collaborations? 2176 02:00:30.680 --> 02:00:32.640 People always say, oh, you need to engage with the 2177 02:00:32.640 --> 02:00:36.239 indigenous communities and and well, like to me, that's a 2178 02:00:36.319 --> 02:00:38.960 nice concept. I know that lots of non Indigenous people 2179 02:00:39.039 --> 02:00:41.560 or companies get frustrated because you know, they go to 2180 02:00:41.600 --> 02:00:44.399 these communities and try to engage and nobody turns up 2181 02:00:44.520 --> 02:00:46.239 or you know, they can't get a hold of anybody. 2182 02:00:46.239 --> 02:00:49.760 Nobody returns their calls. And so I think for me, 2183 02:00:49.960 --> 02:00:52.239 like the thing to remember with that is, you know, 2184 02:00:52.279 --> 02:00:56.680 for people to remember that, like first nations are under 2185 02:00:56.720 --> 02:01:00.239 the Indian Act, right, so basically all their resources and 2186 02:01:00.279 --> 02:01:03.079 you know, how their capital for how they're run all 2187 02:01:03.119 --> 02:01:06.520 basically is decided in Ottawa almost you know, and. 2188 02:01:06.520 --> 02:01:08.039 How much money comes down to them. 2189 02:01:08.039 --> 02:01:09.920 So most of the times, you know, even though the 2190 02:01:09.960 --> 02:01:14.239 communities have high capacity, you know, for forester, your other things, 2191 02:01:14.239 --> 02:01:17.520 it's often very underfunded because of what comes down the 2192 02:01:17.520 --> 02:01:18.520 stream from Ottawa. 2193 02:01:18.680 --> 02:01:21.439 Ottawa is in eastern Canada, in Ontario, and did you 2194 02:01:21.479 --> 02:01:24.000 know that Ottawa is the capital of Canada. I didn't 2195 02:01:24.159 --> 02:01:27.600 until right now. So if you feel the same, it's okay. 2196 02:01:27.800 --> 02:01:30.319 Basically there's not enough money, right so they you know, 2197 02:01:30.439 --> 02:01:32.800 might not have a forestry coordinator, they might not have 2198 02:01:32.840 --> 02:01:35.600 a lands person or you know, or the chief might 2199 02:01:35.640 --> 02:01:39.000 be like that. You know, the chief has to manage housing, healthcare, 2200 02:01:39.239 --> 02:01:41.800 like you know, everything like you get so I know, 2201 02:01:41.800 --> 02:01:44.359 people get frustrated. But at the same time, I think, 2202 02:01:44.399 --> 02:01:46.199 you know, there's needs to be a bit of patience 2203 02:01:46.199 --> 02:01:49.680 and understanding there that lots of the nations are trying 2204 02:01:49.720 --> 02:01:51.880 as much as they can, and some are great. Like 2205 02:01:51.920 --> 02:01:54.760 there's some nations you know that have really gone into 2206 02:01:54.800 --> 02:01:56.880 forestry there, you know, the community. 2207 02:01:56.479 --> 02:01:57.239 Forests in BC. 2208 02:01:58.600 --> 02:02:00.720 I think that those are really great ample of things 2209 02:02:00.800 --> 02:02:03.800 that are working well. Or I know there's been partnerships 2210 02:02:03.840 --> 02:02:08.359 like between different like forest industries and indigenous nations too. 2211 02:02:09.319 --> 02:02:12.039 Most forestry people don't go into forestry because they want 2212 02:02:12.079 --> 02:02:14.800 to you know, kill all the trees and everything, right, 2213 02:02:15.039 --> 02:02:17.399 They go into because they love being in the forest, right, 2214 02:02:17.439 --> 02:02:20.520 so they want to sustain that. Most indigenous people love 2215 02:02:20.600 --> 02:02:22.520 being in the forest, right, So right there you have 2216 02:02:22.600 --> 02:02:25.279 a match of you know, so then it almost goes 2217 02:02:25.279 --> 02:02:27.760 to well, then, you know, if these are our shared values, 2218 02:02:28.399 --> 02:02:31.680 how then can we you know, move forward together. But 2219 02:02:31.800 --> 02:02:34.039 I think one of the problems is that there's a 2220 02:02:34.079 --> 02:02:36.239 real lack of trust because there's been a lot of 2221 02:02:36.239 --> 02:02:39.720 people that have taken advantage of indigenous communities, so you know, 2222 02:02:39.840 --> 02:02:42.720 come in and said good things, said all the right things, 2223 02:02:42.800 --> 02:02:45.600 and then you know, ended up taking money and you know, 2224 02:02:45.680 --> 02:02:49.399 not involving the nation, and so it take it can 2225 02:02:49.439 --> 02:02:51.880 take a while. I think like a helpful thing too 2226 02:02:51.920 --> 02:02:54.760 is employing indigenous people. So you know, when you make 2227 02:02:54.840 --> 02:02:56.960 or want to work in a certain nation or with them, 2228 02:02:57.000 --> 02:03:00.000 you know, to employ people from that band and give them, 2229 02:03:00.239 --> 02:03:03.760 you know, a sustainable you know, career. And there's lots 2230 02:03:03.760 --> 02:03:07.720 of indigenous people that actually have forest tech diplomas and other. 2231 02:03:07.600 --> 02:03:11.279 Things yep, that that can do that. So I think, 2232 02:03:12.159 --> 02:03:14.359 you know, and I know it's not easy either. 2233 02:03:14.399 --> 02:03:15.920 I don't want people to think like, oh yeah, you 2234 02:03:15.960 --> 02:03:17.840 just sit at a table and decide your values and 2235 02:03:17.880 --> 02:03:19.560 then everything goes away. 2236 02:03:20.279 --> 02:03:23.640 Any explains that over the many years, promises have been 2237 02:03:23.640 --> 02:03:27.520 made and broken and outside collaboration has seemed to come 2238 02:03:27.560 --> 02:03:29.159 with a price tag. You know. 2239 02:03:29.239 --> 02:03:31.479 I think you need to recognize, you know, if you 2240 02:03:31.560 --> 02:03:33.760 want to do this kind of work, that there has 2241 02:03:33.800 --> 02:03:35.880 to be some kind of benefit for the community as 2242 02:03:35.920 --> 02:03:39.279 a whole as well, whether that's you know, monetarily or 2243 02:03:39.319 --> 02:03:44.479 you know, supporting like a recreational forest or you know something. Yeah, 2244 02:03:44.640 --> 02:03:46.399 to kind of come to that, I don't like, there's 2245 02:03:46.399 --> 02:03:48.680 not I think an easy answer for you know, like 2246 02:03:49.000 --> 02:03:51.600 just do this one step and you know, indigenous people 2247 02:03:51.600 --> 02:03:53.640 will love to work with you. But for me, I 2248 02:03:53.640 --> 02:03:56.520 think that forestry really has an advantage over say like 2249 02:03:56.560 --> 02:03:59.199 the oil and gas industry because I think that there's 2250 02:03:59.359 --> 02:04:02.560 many more values or like I think the worldview of 2251 02:04:02.600 --> 02:04:05.199 an indigenous person and a forester is much more similar. 2252 02:04:06.319 --> 02:04:09.520 So yeah, I think that that's kind of exciting almost, 2253 02:04:09.520 --> 02:04:11.800 and you know, something kind of a future. And I've 2254 02:04:11.800 --> 02:04:13.760 seen like a bunch of nations now you know, are 2255 02:04:13.800 --> 02:04:17.000 opening their own little sawmills and other things, and to me, 2256 02:04:17.159 --> 02:04:19.319 that's like exciting. So because it has to do with 2257 02:04:19.359 --> 02:04:22.079 the housing crises we have, right so they want to 2258 02:04:22.079 --> 02:04:24.439 be able to you know, harvest their own wood to 2259 02:04:24.520 --> 02:04:27.199 build their own homes, which I mean, why we aren't 2260 02:04:27.199 --> 02:04:30.119 doing that, I have no idea, you know, instead of 2261 02:04:30.159 --> 02:04:33.760 shipping in the wood and timber and stuff. So I think, yeah, 2262 02:04:33.800 --> 02:04:36.479 there's unfortunately there's not like a really easy answer. But 2263 02:04:36.920 --> 02:04:38.680 I would say, like the biggest thing is, you know, 2264 02:04:38.720 --> 02:04:42.479 to be genuine and patient and then understand that history. 2265 02:04:42.720 --> 02:04:45.319 You know, that the situation that you're coming into. Because 2266 02:04:45.359 --> 02:04:49.000 lots of people get like a I don't want to 2267 02:04:49.000 --> 02:04:51.359 say white savior because that sounds really bad, but you know, 2268 02:04:51.399 --> 02:04:52.720 these kind of like oh, I'm going to go to 2269 02:04:52.760 --> 02:04:55.920 the community and help them or you know, like and 2270 02:04:56.000 --> 02:04:56.479 I think the. 2271 02:04:56.479 --> 02:04:58.560 Problem is that there's a revolving door. 2272 02:04:58.359 --> 02:05:01.159 Of these you know, white saviors people that you know 2273 02:05:01.840 --> 02:05:05.239 are coming to save them. And like even like if 2274 02:05:05.279 --> 02:05:07.399 you go to a First Nation conference, like there's just 2275 02:05:07.479 --> 02:05:09.600 kind of business people all over the place trying to 2276 02:05:09.640 --> 02:05:13.399 sell the chiefs on different ideas and different different things. 2277 02:05:13.479 --> 02:05:16.439 So yeah, it's almost kind of being becoming trusted in 2278 02:05:16.479 --> 02:05:19.680 the community and then also working long term. And that's 2279 02:05:19.680 --> 02:05:22.760 something that you know, are especially in government, like we 2280 02:05:22.840 --> 02:05:25.079 don't really support because you know, everyone kind of wants 2281 02:05:25.119 --> 02:05:27.479 to climb the ladder in government, whereas you know, the 2282 02:05:27.520 --> 02:05:30.079 most trusted people are generally the ones from the community 2283 02:05:30.079 --> 02:05:33.079 who've been in the community the longest, and that's generally 2284 02:05:33.119 --> 02:05:36.680 who like an Indigenous person would trust. Yeah, so yeah, 2285 02:05:36.680 --> 02:05:40.039 it's almost like doing these relationships long term too, And 2286 02:05:40.079 --> 02:05:43.000 I think there's some great examples out there of things 2287 02:05:43.000 --> 02:05:44.600 that are going really well. 2288 02:05:44.920 --> 02:05:48.800 So, yes, trust and incentives really matter, as does plain 2289 02:05:48.840 --> 02:05:49.399 old money. 2290 02:05:49.560 --> 02:05:51.399 And I would say lots of that does come from 2291 02:05:51.720 --> 02:05:54.399 like that funding issue. You know that sometimes they just 2292 02:05:54.439 --> 02:05:57.439 don't have enough money. And then also other times, you know, 2293 02:05:57.560 --> 02:05:59.880 we're dealing with lots of issues that have been brought 2294 02:05:59.920 --> 02:06:02.159 up on by colonization, right, So like if you're dealing 2295 02:06:02.199 --> 02:06:04.960 with a suicide crisis in your community, you're not really 2296 02:06:05.000 --> 02:06:08.199 going to care about forestry, right, And so I hear 2297 02:06:08.239 --> 02:06:11.159 people say that too, Like to me sometimes about you know, 2298 02:06:11.199 --> 02:06:13.439 when I talk about how we're stewards of the environment, 2299 02:06:13.439 --> 02:06:15.359 they'll say to me, like, have you ever been on 2300 02:06:15.399 --> 02:06:18.239 a reserve and looked at like you know, there's garbage 2301 02:06:18.279 --> 02:06:21.560 everywhere and you know, and people don't care about their houses, 2302 02:06:21.640 --> 02:06:26.000 and like that's hardly an environmental steward, And to me, 2303 02:06:26.119 --> 02:06:29.760 that's colonization, right, Like that's where where we've gone and 2304 02:06:29.800 --> 02:06:30.880 where we've been pushed. 2305 02:06:31.239 --> 02:06:35.840 So reminder that cultural burning practices were criminalized, but now 2306 02:06:35.880 --> 02:06:39.199 they're becoming of interest to Western scientists, and Amy says 2307 02:06:39.199 --> 02:06:42.920 that returning to that fired stewardship could be really healing 2308 02:06:43.319 --> 02:06:46.720 for forests, for people who love the forest, and for 2309 02:06:46.800 --> 02:06:48.800 the people who have been kept from doing it for 2310 02:06:48.800 --> 02:06:49.199 so long. 2311 02:06:49.840 --> 02:06:53.960 Moving forward, it's kind of like re like regaining our 2312 02:06:54.039 --> 02:06:56.600 culture back, and so that's like where to relate it 2313 02:06:56.600 --> 02:06:59.920 to burning. That's we're burning in those things because burning 2314 02:07:00.039 --> 02:07:02.920 for us is a cultural practice, right, and so I 2315 02:07:02.960 --> 02:07:06.199 think by getting fire back on the landscape, by kind 2316 02:07:06.199 --> 02:07:09.319 of making our forest healthier, you know, than that promotes 2317 02:07:09.359 --> 02:07:13.119 a healthier community. So you know, instead of kids sitting inside, 2318 02:07:13.159 --> 02:07:14.880 you know, they're out on the land and like what 2319 02:07:14.960 --> 02:07:17.800 kid doesn't like fire, right, So they're out with their 2320 02:07:17.840 --> 02:07:21.039 elder like burning. And then it's those neat things like 2321 02:07:21.119 --> 02:07:24.840 even just showing kids like how smart their ancestors were. 2322 02:07:24.880 --> 02:07:27.960 Like the one elder that I was talking to was 2323 02:07:28.000 --> 02:07:30.439 telling me about how drip torches actually came from First 2324 02:07:30.520 --> 02:07:32.960 Nations people, which I didn't know, but I think, like that, 2325 02:07:33.039 --> 02:07:35.359 to me, that's neat because you take kids out there 2326 02:07:35.920 --> 02:07:38.720 and you show them like, well, you know, drip torches 2327 02:07:38.720 --> 02:07:41.680 came from you, you know, and and and even like 2328 02:07:41.760 --> 02:07:44.760 kids had jobs on fires, right. So oh man, I 2329 02:07:44.800 --> 02:07:47.239 actually heard this fantastic well that also made me cry 2330 02:07:47.279 --> 02:07:50.079 the other day from this guy in Australia and he 2331 02:07:50.199 --> 02:07:53.520 was saying for them, burning is such a family affair. 2332 02:07:53.600 --> 02:07:55.239 And actually that's what I hear too from all of 2333 02:07:55.239 --> 02:07:57.319 our that people I've talked to here, is that you 2334 02:07:57.359 --> 02:07:58.800 know it wouldn't just be the men that would go 2335 02:07:58.840 --> 02:08:01.880 out and burn, it's the entire r family and the kids. 2336 02:08:01.920 --> 02:08:04.479 Like one thing they would do is pick up like 2337 02:08:04.560 --> 02:08:07.520 pine cones and you know, light them on fire and 2338 02:08:07.560 --> 02:08:09.680 then from the fire and then throw them right. 2339 02:08:10.399 --> 02:08:12.199 It's so like awesome for kids. 2340 02:08:12.319 --> 02:08:14.399 And I know, like there's fire managers probably listening to 2341 02:08:14.399 --> 02:08:16.199 this saying, oh my goodness, they're going to burn down. 2342 02:08:16.079 --> 02:08:18.520 The Please do not do this. 2343 02:08:18.760 --> 02:08:20.600 If you are just a kid listening, I don't want 2344 02:08:20.640 --> 02:08:24.000 to start throwing flaming balls of fire. Don't do that. 2345 02:08:24.079 --> 02:08:26.960 Yeah, but this was obviously under the direction of elders 2346 02:08:26.960 --> 02:08:30.840 and you know also burning at like very low risk times, right, 2347 02:08:30.880 --> 02:08:34.239 like this was not in the very yes, but so 2348 02:08:34.319 --> 02:08:36.239 you know, it's to give the kids a job on 2349 02:08:36.279 --> 02:08:39.039 the fire. And the one guy from Australia was saying 2350 02:08:39.039 --> 02:08:42.960 that for his mob, that for them it was bringing 2351 02:08:43.119 --> 02:08:46.319 children's laughter back to the forest because the trees hadn't 2352 02:08:46.359 --> 02:08:49.159 heard the children laugh in a long time and they 2353 02:08:49.199 --> 02:08:51.199 felt that that was needed for the trees to be 2354 02:08:51.279 --> 02:08:53.760 healthy too. And I mean that kind of relates like 2355 02:08:53.800 --> 02:08:58.279 obviously children's laughter does not you know, directly affect the tree, 2356 02:08:58.680 --> 02:09:00.960 but it's more that like, if people are out on 2357 02:09:01.000 --> 02:09:04.319 the land stewarding it, right, then that promotes health for 2358 02:09:04.399 --> 02:09:05.920 the health of the trees. 2359 02:09:06.079 --> 02:09:07.520 So anyways, to me, that was. 2360 02:09:07.520 --> 02:09:10.960 Such a beautiful like quote because I think too often, 2361 02:09:11.039 --> 02:09:14.119 you know, we kind of remove that or remove kind 2362 02:09:14.159 --> 02:09:16.119 of the community. 2363 02:09:15.800 --> 02:09:17.920 Patroon nit Niki DeMarco ass Is there any way we 2364 02:09:17.960 --> 02:09:20.880 could go back to indigenous stewardship to help with this problem? 2365 02:09:21.039 --> 02:09:24.399 Or does the red tape make it not feasible? So 2366 02:09:24.560 --> 02:09:26.680 moving forward? What are the legalities of it? 2367 02:09:27.199 --> 02:09:31.319 So on our like the reserves, we're technically allowed to burn, 2368 02:09:31.520 --> 02:09:34.920 right because that's the you know the band, Well it's 2369 02:09:34.920 --> 02:09:37.199 federal jurisdiction, but you know, the band kind of has 2370 02:09:37.239 --> 02:09:38.920 a bit of control over it, so you know that 2371 02:09:39.000 --> 02:09:41.880 you don't need provincial permission to do that. So, you know, 2372 02:09:41.960 --> 02:09:44.479 lots of agents fire management agencies say, you know, oh, 2373 02:09:44.479 --> 02:09:47.039 we're so supportive of indigenous people and we want to 2374 02:09:47.079 --> 02:09:49.920 help that, you know, you know, support their practices, you know, 2375 02:09:50.000 --> 02:09:52.840 until we say, you know, we want to burn something. 2376 02:09:53.319 --> 02:09:54.199 And so you know what. 2377 02:09:54.119 --> 02:09:56.800 I've seen even you know in BC is where I'm 2378 02:09:56.840 --> 02:09:58.960 doing a lot of work right now, because the nations 2379 02:09:59.000 --> 02:10:02.119 there are so passionate about burning. But you know, they 2380 02:10:02.239 --> 02:10:04.560 they're going into these meetings and it's you know, like 2381 02:10:04.600 --> 02:10:08.000 a really complicated process to get prescribed burning on the ground. 2382 02:10:08.039 --> 02:10:10.640 And it's very Western base, you know, you have to 2383 02:10:10.680 --> 02:10:16.399 know like fuel types that are out there. Yeah, it's 2384 02:10:16.399 --> 02:10:19.119 like a crazy twelve step process. And most of the 2385 02:10:19.119 --> 02:10:21.640 communities look at that and just say, you know, we'll 2386 02:10:21.680 --> 02:10:23.880 screw this, we're burning ourselves. 2387 02:10:23.439 --> 02:10:23.600 You know. 2388 02:10:23.880 --> 02:10:25.960 And then even when they want to burn, like I've 2389 02:10:26.000 --> 02:10:28.439 heard of lots, you know where somebody sees smoke and 2390 02:10:28.479 --> 02:10:31.359 then you know, calls the you know, calls the emergency number, 2391 02:10:31.399 --> 02:10:33.399 and then you know, a helicopter will just come and 2392 02:10:33.399 --> 02:10:36.119 put out their their little fires that they're burning right 2393 02:10:36.399 --> 02:10:38.800 without you know, coming and dropping down and maybe talking 2394 02:10:38.800 --> 02:10:41.520 to the people or are seeing what's going on. So 2395 02:10:41.560 --> 02:10:43.359 there's a bit of a disconnect, and I can see 2396 02:10:43.359 --> 02:10:46.199 it from both sides, right because especially in BC, like 2397 02:10:46.520 --> 02:10:49.079 the fires has been so crazy that I think, you know, 2398 02:10:49.159 --> 02:10:52.239 the BC fire manager or wildfire Service there, you know, 2399 02:10:52.279 --> 02:10:55.439 obviously doesn't want out of control fires, yes, but the 2400 02:10:55.560 --> 02:10:58.119 nations there want to burn. And so what I'm seeing 2401 02:10:58.199 --> 02:11:02.319 right now is because they they're just like smashing heads basically, 2402 02:11:02.920 --> 02:11:05.920 like they're supportive until we want to burn. And because 2403 02:11:05.960 --> 02:11:08.239 of that smashing of heads, is that now the nations 2404 02:11:08.239 --> 02:11:10.520 are saying like, well, screw you, this is our territory. 2405 02:11:10.560 --> 02:11:12.920 We're doing what we want, you know, and then like 2406 02:11:13.000 --> 02:11:16.600 it becomes like this real conflict situation and we're trying 2407 02:11:16.640 --> 02:11:19.199 to work with like the agency and you know, maybe 2408 02:11:19.279 --> 02:11:23.439 even introduce some sort of like cultural burn protocol or procedure, 2409 02:11:23.920 --> 02:11:26.640 you know that's more indigenous based, that same thing, like 2410 02:11:26.680 --> 02:11:30.039 you're kind of getting permission, you know, you're notifying the 2411 02:11:30.039 --> 02:11:32.640 correct authorities, but it's not as crazy as this like 2412 02:11:32.800 --> 02:11:33.960 existing process. 2413 02:11:34.159 --> 02:11:36.000 Well, I think that's and we've just again it's a 2414 02:11:36.000 --> 02:11:37.640 not a thing we've discussed a bit on the on 2415 02:11:37.680 --> 02:11:40.199 the other episodes we did that, yeah, the Good Fire podcast. 2416 02:11:40.279 --> 02:11:45.479 But talking about that, that's another big barrier to indigenous 2417 02:11:45.479 --> 02:11:48.960 burning or cultural burning however you want to call it. 2418 02:11:49.039 --> 02:11:52.520 Is the like the Western barriers on that because like 2419 02:11:52.520 --> 02:11:54.640 you're right, we don't want out of control of fires. Yes, 2420 02:11:54.680 --> 02:11:56.840 so yeah, the Western like the Western government, like we 2421 02:11:57.119 --> 02:11:59.199 want to make sure that like any fire that is 2422 02:11:59.359 --> 02:12:02.279 started is not going to become a problem for anything 2423 02:12:02.279 --> 02:12:06.479 outside of the reserve or whatever. Right, But also at 2424 02:12:06.479 --> 02:12:09.520 the same time recognizing that, like you, thank you were saying, 2425 02:12:09.760 --> 02:12:12.520 Indigenous people have been working with fire for thousands of 2426 02:12:12.600 --> 02:12:16.399 years and understand the relationship. So how do you make 2427 02:12:16.439 --> 02:12:22.319 sure that government feels comfortable with this going on, but 2428 02:12:22.399 --> 02:12:26.399 also ensuring that because it's entirely possible. Also like this 2429 02:12:26.439 --> 02:12:29.199 is something that somebody who's playing Devil's advocate would say, right, 2430 02:12:29.600 --> 02:12:31.279 is just saying that, like, well, how do we ensure 2431 02:12:31.319 --> 02:12:32.840 that they know what they're doing, because it could be 2432 02:12:32.880 --> 02:12:34.720 somebody who just because they're Indigenous, doesn't mean they know 2433 02:12:34.760 --> 02:12:36.600 what's going on, right, they have to have that knowledge 2434 02:12:36.640 --> 02:12:38.239 pass down and collected somehow. 2435 02:12:38.680 --> 02:12:40.479 And you know, I've heard that all the time, like, oh, 2436 02:12:40.520 --> 02:12:42.359 if we allow this, the Indians are going to be 2437 02:12:42.399 --> 02:12:43.560 lighting fires everywhere. 2438 02:12:43.960 --> 02:12:44.880 Yeah, exactly right. 2439 02:12:44.920 --> 02:12:46.640 And then that kind of fear, yeah, right. 2440 02:12:46.560 --> 02:12:49.319 So there's that fear of will they take advantage of 2441 02:12:49.359 --> 02:12:52.039 this and just do it for fun or whatever? And 2442 02:12:52.079 --> 02:12:54.520 that exists, So we have to address that fear. So 2443 02:12:54.520 --> 02:12:56.880 how do we There's going to have to be a 2444 02:12:56.920 --> 02:13:01.560 collaboration somehow to be like, okay, we acknowledge that like 2445 02:13:01.720 --> 02:13:04.960 these four people somehow. Unfortunately, that's the way it's going 2446 02:13:05.000 --> 02:13:06.359 to happen. I think it's probably going to have to 2447 02:13:06.359 --> 02:13:09.720 go that these are people in this band have the knowledge, yeah, 2448 02:13:09.720 --> 02:13:11.479 and they have to be like I don't know, And 2449 02:13:11.520 --> 02:13:14.000 this is super westernized for me to think, right, like, 2450 02:13:14.159 --> 02:13:16.880 these people have the knowledge and understanding of how to 2451 02:13:16.920 --> 02:13:18.720 do this, so if they're in charge, we're not going 2452 02:13:18.760 --> 02:13:23.279 to worry about it. But I also feel like indigenous 2453 02:13:23.279 --> 02:13:26.720 communities having to talk to the overlord the government, what 2454 02:13:26.760 --> 02:13:29.319 they're doing on their own land is counter is exactly 2455 02:13:29.399 --> 02:13:31.319 the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish here. 2456 02:13:31.439 --> 02:13:33.399 Yeah, and so that's like so you know, like there's 2457 02:13:33.439 --> 02:13:36.760 fireboss training, right or no burn boss training, So there's 2458 02:13:36.800 --> 02:13:38.600 like different levels of that you can go through. 2459 02:13:38.680 --> 02:13:39.000 Same thing. 2460 02:13:39.079 --> 02:13:41.800 It's very Western, like I know that now, Like there's 2461 02:13:41.800 --> 02:13:44.000 Bob Gray and other guys who train on that who 2462 02:13:44.039 --> 02:13:46.880 are starting to incorporate a bit of Indigenous knowledge or 2463 02:13:47.279 --> 02:13:50.000 you know the importance of Indigenous knowledge and burning. But same, 2464 02:13:50.079 --> 02:13:52.199 it's very like kind of Western. You know, this is 2465 02:13:52.239 --> 02:13:53.920 how we light a prescribe fire. 2466 02:13:53.720 --> 02:13:56.560 And that's all we know. That's the only culture I know, right, 2467 02:13:56.640 --> 02:13:58.520 So it's where my perspective is going to come from. 2468 02:13:58.640 --> 02:14:00.960 Yeah, so we're doing brains some of the fire keepers, 2469 02:14:01.000 --> 02:14:03.239 and we're like, you know, well they do a certification 2470 02:14:03.439 --> 02:14:05.439 course to get that, so maybe what we need to 2471 02:14:05.439 --> 02:14:08.319 do then is have a cultural burning certification course, right, 2472 02:14:08.680 --> 02:14:11.079 so that you know, people would go through and then 2473 02:14:11.079 --> 02:14:14.479 once they get that, then you know they can go and. 2474 02:14:13.760 --> 02:14:15.399 And light fires or whatever. 2475 02:14:15.439 --> 02:14:18.159 But then then we had a lot of fire keepers 2476 02:14:18.199 --> 02:14:21.199 that were saying, like, no, that is basically just us 2477 02:14:21.239 --> 02:14:23.920 trying to fit into a Western system, right, And they 2478 02:14:23.920 --> 02:14:26.159 were saying, like the one guy actually at the fire 2479 02:14:26.239 --> 02:14:28.960 keeper's conference, I just went to the government people were talking, 2480 02:14:29.000 --> 02:14:30.640 and he stood up and he just said, you know, 2481 02:14:30.720 --> 02:14:33.359 I find this really difficult because they were talking about, 2482 02:14:33.359 --> 02:14:35.079 you know, like all the procedures you need to go 2483 02:14:35.159 --> 02:14:37.239 through to get approved. He stood up and he just said, 2484 02:14:37.279 --> 02:14:40.680 you know, for me, this is my families and like 2485 02:14:40.800 --> 02:14:43.359 my nation's inherent right to steward the land, this is 2486 02:14:43.399 --> 02:14:45.479 my responsiblity. This is why I was put on this earth, 2487 02:14:46.119 --> 02:14:48.600 you know, So for me then to have to go 2488 02:14:48.680 --> 02:14:51.840 and ask you for permission to do what is my 2489 02:14:52.000 --> 02:14:55.960 responsibility and my right, that doesn't make any sense. And 2490 02:14:56.000 --> 02:14:58.880 then he was saying, like, you know, one hundred years ago, 2491 02:14:58.960 --> 02:15:01.239 you guys were telling us we couldn't burn because we 2492 02:15:01.239 --> 02:15:03.840 were destroying the forest, and now you're saying, test, oh, 2493 02:15:03.920 --> 02:15:08.399 only we can burn because you know you guys, because 2494 02:15:08.439 --> 02:15:11.600 now the forest is destroyed. And he's like, you're the ones, 2495 02:15:11.680 --> 02:15:14.359 you know who's practices because you wouldn't listen to us, 2496 02:15:14.800 --> 02:15:16.359 you know, have led to this. If you would have 2497 02:15:16.399 --> 02:15:19.520 listened to my ancestors, you know, then we wouldn't be 2498 02:15:19.520 --> 02:15:21.680 in this predicament we're in now, so like, let us 2499 02:15:21.760 --> 02:15:23.960 kind of take it over. So I think it's one 2500 02:15:23.960 --> 02:15:26.079 of those like I don't hate. I don't really like 2501 02:15:26.119 --> 02:15:28.199 that term like wicked issue, you know, where it's like 2502 02:15:28.720 --> 02:15:31.520 super complex, but it is kind of like that in 2503 02:15:31.560 --> 02:15:34.720 a way, right because you like you're worried the forest 2504 02:15:34.760 --> 02:15:37.479 isn't healthy right now. I don't personally want to say 2505 02:15:37.479 --> 02:15:39.720 to somebody like, yeah, go out and burn and then 2506 02:15:39.760 --> 02:15:42.680 have you know, a massive crown fire start. But I 2507 02:15:42.680 --> 02:15:46.479 think the thing is with indigenous fire practice is that 2508 02:15:47.159 --> 02:15:51.000 it's you know, you're burning at very specific times. So 2509 02:15:51.079 --> 02:15:53.760 you know, it's like early spring before the snow is left. 2510 02:15:53.800 --> 02:15:56.800 In Canada, it's late fall, just like the day or 2511 02:15:56.840 --> 02:16:00.159 two before the first snow fall. Right, you're not burning 2512 02:16:00.199 --> 02:16:02.279 like obviously in the summer, So like I would think 2513 02:16:02.359 --> 02:16:05.680 that that, you know, obviously still should be criminalized to 2514 02:16:05.720 --> 02:16:08.520 some extent. You know, that you need to find people 2515 02:16:08.640 --> 02:16:10.600 or whatever that are just going because that is very 2516 02:16:10.680 --> 02:16:11.199 high risk. 2517 02:16:12.399 --> 02:16:13.520 And so like what our. 2518 02:16:15.159 --> 02:16:17.920 Like elders and ancestors say from like the different nations 2519 02:16:17.920 --> 02:16:20.159 that I've talked to, is that, you know, our burning 2520 02:16:20.199 --> 02:16:22.600 that we do is so low risk. That's why we 2521 02:16:22.640 --> 02:16:25.399 don't need protective equipment. That's why we don't need a 2522 02:16:25.399 --> 02:16:29.079 burn plan, because if we're doing it right, you know, 2523 02:16:29.720 --> 02:16:34.000 there's there's literally very lower zero risk. Why I think 2524 02:16:34.040 --> 02:16:36.360 they would say zero risk to what they're doing, you know, 2525 02:16:36.399 --> 02:16:39.040 to starting an out of control fire or somebody getting hurt. 2526 02:16:39.479 --> 02:16:41.680 It's amazing how complicated the situation is to try and 2527 02:16:41.760 --> 02:16:43.520 navigate this, but I think, yeah, the only way forward 2528 02:16:43.600 --> 02:16:44.079 is to. 2529 02:16:43.920 --> 02:16:45.760 Come together and discussions. 2530 02:16:45.920 --> 02:16:47.520 It seems like a cop out to say that, because 2531 02:16:47.559 --> 02:16:50.000 it's just like like we need to discuss it, but 2532 02:16:50.200 --> 02:16:51.559 unfortunately that's the truth. 2533 02:16:51.959 --> 02:16:52.319 Yeah. 2534 02:16:52.360 --> 02:16:54.639 Well, and on the Good Fire podcast, I think like 2535 02:16:54.680 --> 02:16:57.440 that's what's interesting is because with the range of people 2536 02:16:57.479 --> 02:16:59.600 that we talked to on there, like you know, you 2537 02:16:59.680 --> 02:17:03.239 go from somebody who thinks, you know, like it's their 2538 02:17:03.319 --> 02:17:05.719 right to burn and they're not working with any agency. 2539 02:17:05.799 --> 02:17:08.920 And then to like other people who you know, are employed, 2540 02:17:08.959 --> 02:17:11.959 like mean kind of by an agency, like Frank Lake. 2541 02:17:12.000 --> 02:17:14.200 You know, he works for US Forest Service, and he's 2542 02:17:14.360 --> 02:17:17.120 used his you know, work within this kind of western 2543 02:17:17.159 --> 02:17:20.159 government structure to bring more fire back to his territory. 2544 02:17:20.440 --> 02:17:22.559 So yeah, it's just it's really interesting to see kind 2545 02:17:22.600 --> 02:17:24.200 of all the different perspectives. 2546 02:17:24.879 --> 02:17:28.159 So that conversation was from the Your Forest podcast, which 2547 02:17:28.239 --> 02:17:31.239 is hosted by Matt Christoff, who also co hosts Good 2548 02:17:31.319 --> 02:17:34.079 Fire with Amy, And of course there's a whole Good 2549 02:17:34.079 --> 02:17:37.319 Fire episode with Frank Lake, and there's so many other 2550 02:17:37.360 --> 02:17:40.239 great voices in indigenous fire ecology. So I'm going to 2551 02:17:40.319 --> 02:17:43.200 link that episode in the podcast in general on my website, 2552 02:17:43.319 --> 02:17:44.719 and I will also put up a link to the 2553 02:17:44.760 --> 02:17:48.959 wonderful forty seven page book called Blazing the Trail, celebrating 2554 02:17:49.040 --> 02:17:53.680 Indigenous fire stewardship. So many resources, so much learning. Now 2555 02:17:53.879 --> 02:17:56.239 to wrap up, though, let's talk about some pains in 2556 02:17:56.280 --> 02:18:00.000 some assets. So the most vexing thing about Amy's job. 2557 02:18:00.319 --> 02:18:02.680 I'd have to say, my least favorite thing about my 2558 02:18:02.840 --> 02:18:05.959 job is the bureaucracy, which I think that most people 2559 02:18:06.559 --> 02:18:10.120 who work in a government agency can relate to. It's 2560 02:18:10.159 --> 02:18:13.879 sometimes really frustrating when you know, you know something needs 2561 02:18:13.920 --> 02:18:17.040 to be done or what a solution could be, but 2562 02:18:17.079 --> 02:18:19.520 then you kind of get held up in all sorts 2563 02:18:19.559 --> 02:18:21.399 of bureaucratic processes. 2564 02:18:21.479 --> 02:18:23.440 So I mean, that's my least favorite. 2565 02:18:23.520 --> 02:18:26.399 Unfortunately, it takes up a lot of time that we 2566 02:18:26.440 --> 02:18:28.280 could be, you know, devoting to other things. 2567 02:18:28.360 --> 02:18:31.959 So that's frustrating for sure in. 2568 02:18:31.959 --> 02:18:35.879 The standout best aspect, the most brightly glowing coal. 2569 02:18:36.479 --> 02:18:39.159 But I think my most favorite thing about my job 2570 02:18:39.399 --> 02:18:43.319 is that I'm able to work with communities and knowledge 2571 02:18:43.399 --> 02:18:47.239 keepers from across Canada and then internationally sometimes as well. 2572 02:18:47.280 --> 02:18:49.920 And I really realize that that's, you know, a position 2573 02:18:50.000 --> 02:18:52.840 of privilege that I have and that I'm in to 2574 02:18:52.920 --> 02:18:55.200 be able to do that, and it comes like with 2575 02:18:55.280 --> 02:18:57.920 a lot of responsibility that often you know, keeps me 2576 02:18:58.040 --> 02:19:01.040 awake at night, but for me, when I'm able to 2577 02:19:01.079 --> 02:19:05.680 bring fire keepers or other people to events or other 2578 02:19:05.760 --> 02:19:10.559 things and just see their pride and finally being recognized 2579 02:19:10.559 --> 02:19:13.600 in their knowledge being known, and sometimes like I've been 2580 02:19:13.600 --> 02:19:15.200 referring to that as kind of like you know, we 2581 02:19:15.280 --> 02:19:17.799 had this big severance event with fire, but now what 2582 02:19:17.840 --> 02:19:21.479 we're almost seeing is this reunion with fire where Indigenous 2583 02:19:21.479 --> 02:19:23.319 people are coming back to it. And so, you know, 2584 02:19:23.360 --> 02:19:25.879 we have the land back movement for Indigenous people, and 2585 02:19:25.959 --> 02:19:27.879 often I think, you know, we need a fire back 2586 02:19:28.000 --> 02:19:32.639 movement as well, where Indigenous people, you know, empowered again 2587 02:19:32.719 --> 02:19:34.879 to make those decisions on the land. And what I'm 2588 02:19:34.920 --> 02:19:38.719 seeing right now in Canada especially is that there is 2589 02:19:38.760 --> 02:19:41.520 a movement where people want to be involved in fire 2590 02:19:41.639 --> 02:19:44.719 management decisions that are happening in their territories. 2591 02:19:44.719 --> 02:19:46.399 And so I think that's really exciting. 2592 02:19:50.239 --> 02:19:54.479 So ask smart people exciting questions because sometimes the situation 2593 02:19:54.719 --> 02:19:57.639 is impossibly complex and they can help break it down 2594 02:19:57.639 --> 02:20:00.799 for you, like a focus on a fallen life. And 2595 02:20:00.840 --> 02:20:03.120 so for more on this topic, you can get yourself 2596 02:20:03.159 --> 02:20:06.719 some good fire podcast into your Ears. It's hosted by 2597 02:20:06.719 --> 02:20:09.280 Amy and by Matt Christoff and it's linked in the 2598 02:20:09.319 --> 02:20:12.479 show notes. Matt's podcast again is Your Forest Podcast. Thank 2599 02:20:12.520 --> 02:20:14.399 you so much to him for letting us use so 2600 02:20:14.479 --> 02:20:17.079 much of his interview with Amy. You can follow Amy 2601 02:20:17.200 --> 02:20:20.479 at Christensen Amy on Twitter. There are more links in 2602 02:20:20.520 --> 02:20:22.760 the show notes and up on my website Aliward dot com. 2603 02:20:22.799 --> 02:20:25.959 Slash Ologies slash good Fire. You can follow us at 2604 02:20:26.000 --> 02:20:29.000 Ologies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at Ali Ward with 2605 02:20:29.040 --> 02:20:32.760 one l New full length adult friendly episodes continue to 2606 02:20:32.799 --> 02:20:36.040 come out on Tuesday, and we're moving Smologies releases to 2607 02:20:36.040 --> 02:20:38.760 the weekend I think Sundays or Mondays, so look for 2608 02:20:38.840 --> 02:20:40.959 a new kid friendly episode next week. Also, I'm sorry 2609 02:20:40.959 --> 02:20:42.120 that my neighbor's dog's barking. 2610 02:20:42.239 --> 02:20:43.399 I can't really do anything about it. 2611 02:20:43.440 --> 02:20:50.159 We gotta get this episode up. I'm so Sweaty. Merch 2612 02:20:50.280 --> 02:20:53.399 is available at ologiesmerch dot com. Thank you to longtime 2613 02:20:53.440 --> 02:20:56.200 friend Aaron Talbert we met when we were four, for 2614 02:20:56.319 --> 02:20:59.239 admitting the Ologies podcast Facebook group. Thank you to Emily 2615 02:20:59.280 --> 02:21:04.000 White of the Professional Transcription Company for making transcripts for Ologies. 2616 02:21:04.120 --> 02:21:06.520 They're available for free on my website. Thank you Caleb 2617 02:21:06.559 --> 02:21:09.399 Patten for Bleeping episodes. Thank you Noel Dilworth for all 2618 02:21:09.440 --> 02:21:11.799 the scheduling, and Susan Hale both of you for helping 2619 02:21:11.799 --> 02:21:14.959 with social media quizz and such as always giant. Thank 2620 02:21:15.000 --> 02:21:18.479 you to Resident editor by Resident I mean we live 2621 02:21:18.600 --> 02:21:21.719 in the same bed, shared sleeper, who helped me stitch 2622 02:21:21.760 --> 02:21:24.319 all these audio clips together. And also, of course to 2623 02:21:24.319 --> 02:21:26.559 Steph Marie Morris for all the editing help and for 2624 02:21:26.600 --> 02:21:31.479 working on Smologies now too and twenty twenty five Dad here. 2625 02:21:31.719 --> 02:21:35.200 So since this episode first aired, also we have put 2626 02:21:35.280 --> 02:21:38.719 Smologies in its own feeds, so there are free, classroom safe, 2627 02:21:38.799 --> 02:21:41.200 kid friendly episodes available. Wherever you get podcasts, you can 2628 02:21:41.239 --> 02:21:47.719 just look for Smologies, Smologies and the new green cover 2629 02:21:47.840 --> 02:21:50.440 art for it. Also, since his episode verst Aared, we 2630 02:21:50.479 --> 02:21:52.920 have added a few great Ologies team members such as 2631 02:21:52.959 --> 02:21:56.200 Aveline Malick who makes our professional transcripts, Jake Schafe and 2632 02:21:56.239 --> 02:21:59.680 Mercedes Maitland who edit, and managing director Susan Hale Nick 2633 02:21:59.719 --> 02:22:01.559 Thorpe and wrote the theme music. And I told you 2634 02:22:01.600 --> 02:22:03.680 at the very beginning, look at this, you made it. 2635 02:22:03.719 --> 02:22:05.680 If you stick around until the end, I will tell 2636 02:22:05.719 --> 02:22:09.200 you a fresh secret, a smoldering hot one. And for 2637 02:22:09.280 --> 02:22:12.280 this one, I'm going to bring in editor and a 2638 02:22:12.399 --> 02:22:15.120 legally wedded husband, Jer Sleeper. 2639 02:22:15.360 --> 02:22:17.479 Yeah. I think technically I own half the show. 2640 02:22:17.559 --> 02:22:19.719 Actually do you own half the show? Because we're literally 2641 02:22:19.760 --> 02:22:22.479 wed apecially, because it's a California's a fifty fifty save. 2642 02:22:22.319 --> 02:22:28.280 Babe, damn getting into that here not have a Brena. 2643 02:22:29.319 --> 02:22:32.760 So this shit better work out, Okay, We share a hoem, 2644 02:22:32.920 --> 02:22:35.440 we share a baby daughter who's twelve years old, who 2645 02:22:35.520 --> 02:22:36.479 is very hairy. 2646 02:22:36.760 --> 02:22:39.120 We share life, we share a heart space, we share, 2647 02:22:39.399 --> 02:22:40.319 we share a soul bond. 2648 02:22:40.360 --> 02:22:40.840 What a life. 2649 02:22:40.879 --> 02:22:43.040 I already was like, let's make this secret quick. And 2650 02:22:43.079 --> 02:22:44.479 we're already like a minute into it. 2651 02:22:44.760 --> 02:22:47.280 You're asking me to make a quick you say, you 2652 02:22:47.319 --> 02:22:50.879 invite me on and say make it quick. No, what, 2653 02:22:50.959 --> 02:22:52.760 I'm having the most mystical day I've had. 2654 02:22:53.879 --> 02:22:56.959 Let's tell let's tell the secret, okay, because this made 2655 02:22:57.000 --> 02:22:59.600 me cool. So I was in I was in Las Vegas. 2656 02:22:59.600 --> 02:23:02.360 I was getting a flight home today. Now again, as 2657 02:23:02.399 --> 02:23:05.760 you heard at the top, there are these horrific wildfires raging. 2658 02:23:06.920 --> 02:23:09.840 The closest one to us, burned up like a thousand homes. 2659 02:23:10.159 --> 02:23:12.360 And a really weird thing in La right now is 2660 02:23:12.959 --> 02:23:16.079 people are finding pages of books all over because the 2661 02:23:16.120 --> 02:23:19.879 winds are so intense that they've just taken these pages 2662 02:23:19.920 --> 02:23:23.799 of books and scattered them miles and miles away, right, right, 2663 02:23:24.120 --> 02:23:25.040 So I was in Vegas. 2664 02:23:25.079 --> 02:23:26.040 I was talking to you on the phone. 2665 02:23:26.159 --> 02:23:29.239 Yes, And I think it was pretty early this morning, right, 2666 02:23:29.920 --> 02:23:31.559 I don't know, I think it was. I feel like 2667 02:23:31.600 --> 02:23:34.280 I woke up and I was I remember I was 2668 02:23:34.399 --> 02:23:40.440 very I don't know, shook or something by the not embers. 2669 02:23:40.440 --> 02:23:43.520 They're not members, they're ashes, ashes falling down because the 2670 02:23:43.559 --> 02:23:46.319 smoke wasn't as bad as it was yesterday, and it 2671 02:23:46.440 --> 02:23:48.239 just kind of poetic, you know. It looks like snow, 2672 02:23:48.319 --> 02:23:50.680 a little bit like this light snow. And so went 2673 02:23:50.680 --> 02:23:53.760 outside and I was looking around, just at the yard 2674 02:23:53.799 --> 02:23:56.159 and checking on things, you know, trying to make sure 2675 02:23:56.159 --> 02:23:58.280 that nothing's on fire. See how it smells out there, 2676 02:23:58.639 --> 02:24:02.639 not as campfirey. And I found a charred page. 2677 02:24:02.399 --> 02:24:04.639 Of book creepy. 2678 02:24:05.319 --> 02:24:08.399 Well, yeah, because like you said, there's been people posting 2679 02:24:08.440 --> 02:24:11.639 these and finding these little bits and pieces, and I 2680 02:24:11.680 --> 02:24:13.559 knew you'd think it was cool. And I took picture 2681 02:24:13.600 --> 02:24:16.799 of it, and then I was looking and the first 2682 02:24:16.840 --> 02:24:18.319 thing that struck me was on the first page. It 2683 02:24:18.319 --> 02:24:20.399 had some phrase on it about ashes. 2684 02:24:20.879 --> 02:24:24.319 Yeah, that's already if you find a charge, Yeah that alone, 2685 02:24:24.360 --> 02:24:27.360 if you find a charred book piece, a piece of 2686 02:24:27.399 --> 02:24:28.920 a page of a book, a burn page of a 2687 02:24:28.959 --> 02:24:32.120 book in your yard from miles away. 2688 02:24:32.399 --> 02:24:35.680 And yeah, and it's referring to in ashes, and said 2689 02:24:35.879 --> 02:24:38.479 ash that's referring to itself. Strange. 2690 02:24:38.799 --> 02:24:43.760 Yeah, it said you could see along the lower half 2691 02:24:44.000 --> 02:24:46.079 the words among the ashes. 2692 02:24:45.959 --> 02:24:47.440 Right, and I was looking at the rest of the 2693 02:24:47.479 --> 02:24:49.040 words trying to figure out it was. I flipped it 2694 02:24:49.079 --> 02:24:52.680 over and more words. There's one in particular that referred 2695 02:24:52.760 --> 02:24:55.600 to leaning on a grocery card, a green grocery card 2696 02:24:55.680 --> 02:24:57.959 or something like that, and I had this inkling. I 2697 02:24:58.000 --> 02:25:01.440 was like, this is from I think I might have 2698 02:25:01.559 --> 02:25:05.040 read this. And I went and I did the Google 2699 02:25:05.040 --> 02:25:07.159 book search thing, and first I was just typing in 2700 02:25:07.200 --> 02:25:09.159 the dialogue and a million things were coming up for 2701 02:25:09.280 --> 02:25:11.440 the phrases that I was finding, and then I was like, 2702 02:25:11.840 --> 02:25:14.920 let me just see, and I specified the book. I 2703 02:25:14.920 --> 02:25:17.239 thought it was The Road by Cornick. 2704 02:25:17.000 --> 02:25:19.120 McCarthy, which is one of your favorite books. 2705 02:25:19.399 --> 02:25:21.040 Yeah, it is one of my favorite books. It was 2706 02:25:21.200 --> 02:25:23.920 very moving book and a very formative book. I've always 2707 02:25:24.000 --> 02:25:26.520 been pre obsessed with the post apocalypse stuff, but that one, 2708 02:25:26.559 --> 02:25:29.840 in particular, Crank McCarthy's writing really impacted me. And I 2709 02:25:31.040 --> 02:25:33.040 remember that book as being the first one that made 2710 02:25:33.120 --> 02:25:36.360 me like ball. Yeah, that made me go, WHOA a 2711 02:25:36.399 --> 02:25:39.639 book can make you ball. You can just read a 2712 02:25:39.639 --> 02:25:43.239 few sentences and just be weeping to yourself alone. And 2713 02:25:43.280 --> 02:25:46.319 that really struck me. That it was like extraordinarily beautiful. 2714 02:25:45.879 --> 02:25:47.680 Book, and I've never read it. 2715 02:25:48.040 --> 02:25:49.639 And part of where I've never read it is I 2716 02:25:49.639 --> 02:25:53.520 feel like I've never been in like a headspace to 2717 02:25:54.000 --> 02:25:56.120 get into something that's so bleak. 2718 02:25:56.239 --> 02:25:59.200 Oh it's atrocious, it's really tough. I read that book. 2719 02:25:59.280 --> 02:26:01.239 This is a funny pairing, but I remember I read 2720 02:26:01.280 --> 02:26:04.559 that book back to back with World War Z, which 2721 02:26:04.600 --> 02:26:07.680 is a great book. Actually it's it's you do it 2722 02:26:07.680 --> 02:26:09.719 in the sob of an oral history, and that book 2723 02:26:09.760 --> 02:26:13.639 has a chapter that involves cannibalism, and the Road involves cannibalism, 2724 02:26:13.920 --> 02:26:16.520 and reading those books back to back just I never 2725 02:26:16.559 --> 02:26:18.319 had a weird phobic like you know, it's a discussion, 2726 02:26:18.360 --> 02:26:20.280 but it never was like after reading those books, I've 2727 02:26:20.319 --> 02:26:23.040 been so creeped out by the idea of cannibalism, like 2728 02:26:23.360 --> 02:26:23.639 in a. 2729 02:26:23.600 --> 02:26:27.319 More intense way than every time turned me on. 2730 02:26:27.440 --> 02:26:29.360 Every time I say that sounds crazy because you're like, well, yeah, 2731 02:26:29.399 --> 02:26:30.600 we all, but you know what I mean in a 2732 02:26:30.600 --> 02:26:33.840 way that you're oh, it's like it's so vistrong and 2733 02:26:33.879 --> 02:26:35.000 just disgusting. Anyway. 2734 02:26:35.399 --> 02:26:38.239 So Carmick McCarthy is the very beautiful book. 2735 02:26:38.120 --> 02:26:40.719 Very intense book, and the themes of the book. The 2736 02:26:40.760 --> 02:26:43.520 book is about this, I'll get very brief. The book 2737 02:26:43.559 --> 02:26:47.319 is this follow spoilers, No, I'm doing best to do spoilers, 2738 02:26:47.440 --> 02:26:49.079 but the premise and people are probably seen the movie. 2739 02:26:49.079 --> 02:26:51.040 That movie with Vigo Mortonston is pretty decent. I don't know. 2740 02:26:51.440 --> 02:26:55.840 But the book is about an awful post apocalypse, like 2741 02:26:55.920 --> 02:26:58.479 just the most hellish version of it you could imagine. 2742 02:26:58.479 --> 02:27:02.600 The world is destroyed and this man is alone with 2743 02:27:02.680 --> 02:27:05.840 his son, and he is trying to protect his son 2744 02:27:05.959 --> 02:27:08.360 through this wasteland. And the son is still very young, 2745 02:27:08.959 --> 02:27:13.040 and the father, in trying to protect the son sort 2746 02:27:13.079 --> 02:27:17.559 of manages to keep the sun kind of pure and naive, 2747 02:27:17.639 --> 02:27:20.799 even like decent, and he's trying to protect the decency 2748 02:27:20.840 --> 02:27:23.000 in this land that there's just none of it left. 2749 02:27:23.079 --> 02:27:27.559 It's just like a cruel, vicious, uh landscape of a 2750 02:27:27.639 --> 02:27:30.399 type of nature that like Thomas Hobbs would think up 2751 02:27:30.440 --> 02:27:33.040 or something like that. You're just like life is cruel, 2752 02:27:33.079 --> 02:27:34.000 British and short. 2753 02:27:33.879 --> 02:27:37.479 Right, yeah, bleak, bleak, And so this he talks. 2754 02:27:37.280 --> 02:27:38.760 About that, he talks about the child though, he talks 2755 02:27:38.799 --> 02:27:41.000 about child and be like the carrier of this light 2756 02:27:41.280 --> 02:27:43.360 and that like that he carries the light of the world, 2757 02:27:43.399 --> 02:27:44.879 and it's really beautiful and it really struck me when 2758 02:27:44.920 --> 02:27:47.639 I was young. Anyway, So this page, this page, this 2759 02:27:47.719 --> 02:27:52.799 page floats down the pages now, the hard remnant of 2760 02:27:52.840 --> 02:27:54.719 a book that you when you touch it. When I 2761 02:27:54.760 --> 02:27:56.639 touched it, a piece felt like every time I touch 2762 02:27:56.680 --> 02:27:59.000 it falls apart more like unbelievably delicate. 2763 02:27:59.200 --> 02:28:03.040 And the horror part about finding these ashes everywhere is 2764 02:28:03.040 --> 02:28:04.239 that that was someone's house. 2765 02:28:04.600 --> 02:28:05.879 That was in someone's house, That. 2766 02:28:05.920 --> 02:28:08.879 Was a book that someone bought and read or lent 2767 02:28:08.920 --> 02:28:12.520 to someone, and it carried on these eighty mile an 2768 02:28:12.520 --> 02:28:16.440 hour winds as a remnant of someone who's is having 2769 02:28:16.479 --> 02:28:17.479 the worst day of their life. 2770 02:28:17.479 --> 02:28:19.360 Well, and you and I were having a discussion then too. 2771 02:28:19.360 --> 02:28:21.600 You are asking this question which is plaguing us both 2772 02:28:21.639 --> 02:28:24.879 and I think playing so many people out here, because 2773 02:28:24.879 --> 02:28:27.399 this is just a symptom of a wider chaos we're 2774 02:28:27.399 --> 02:28:30.600 all experiencing and going to experience more. Knowing about climate change, 2775 02:28:30.959 --> 02:28:32.520 this question like what are we going to do? And 2776 02:28:33.360 --> 02:28:35.280 what can we can? We were just struck by that 2777 02:28:35.319 --> 02:28:35.879 all the time. 2778 02:28:35.959 --> 02:28:37.159 Yeah, like what can we do? 2779 02:28:37.639 --> 02:28:39.719 And some of that question is very practical. They're like 2780 02:28:39.760 --> 02:28:41.399 are we going to move or going to what? Are 2781 02:28:41.399 --> 02:28:42.440 we going to do with our live what we're we 2782 02:28:42.440 --> 02:28:42.760 gonna do? 2783 02:28:42.920 --> 02:28:46.680 Mutually finds that we can amplify, which as this, as 2784 02:28:46.799 --> 02:28:49.479 we learn more about which friends have lost houses, we 2785 02:28:49.520 --> 02:28:50.120 can amplify. 2786 02:28:50.200 --> 02:28:51.559 But right now it's like, what can we do? The 2787 02:28:51.639 --> 02:28:53.719 fires are still zero percent contained? 2788 02:28:53.799 --> 02:28:58.000 And it felt very spooky that this floats down and 2789 02:28:58.040 --> 02:29:02.040 I'm prone to mysticism and receiving the signals when I 2790 02:29:02.079 --> 02:29:08.159 can cries, I cry, I cry, I cry. Find this 2791 02:29:08.520 --> 02:29:11.639 scene in the book, I find it confirmed to be 2792 02:29:11.879 --> 02:29:16.239 this from the road, and the scene is a very intense, 2793 02:29:16.280 --> 02:29:17.840 beautiful scene in the book. And in the scene of 2794 02:29:17.879 --> 02:29:21.280 the book, the father and the son have have had 2795 02:29:21.559 --> 02:29:25.399 recently this stroke of luck, and they found this readout 2796 02:29:25.520 --> 02:29:27.799 with a cash of food and stuff in it, and 2797 02:29:27.799 --> 02:29:30.079 they have all this extra like riches for where they're at, 2798 02:29:30.440 --> 02:29:32.559 but it's dangerous to carry that stuff in this land 2799 02:29:32.600 --> 02:29:35.120 that the father's really scared of it being stolen from them, 2800 02:29:35.120 --> 02:29:37.719 to being a target now. So they're moving on and 2801 02:29:37.760 --> 02:29:40.840 they come across this old man wandering by himself, and 2802 02:29:41.000 --> 02:29:46.200 the scene the old man like is so scared to 2803 02:29:46.239 --> 02:29:48.520 meet these people like that he assumes are going to 2804 02:29:48.600 --> 02:29:51.440 victimize him somehow, that he like sits in the middle 2805 02:29:51.440 --> 02:29:55.159 of the road and just is doing nothing. And the 2806 02:29:55.319 --> 02:29:58.239 son is saying to say this to the old man, 2807 02:29:58.440 --> 02:30:01.680 we're not robbers, we're not robbers, like he's this kid 2808 02:30:01.799 --> 02:30:04.479 like that's the way he conceives of it, just robbers. 2809 02:30:04.879 --> 02:30:08.719 And the man is like just sitting and the father 2810 02:30:08.840 --> 02:30:11.920 is freaking out. And the father's going like, this man 2811 02:30:12.239 --> 02:30:15.000 is probably here to set up an ambush. He's looking 2812 02:30:15.040 --> 02:30:16.840 around for like, where's the rest of the gang, and 2813 02:30:16.920 --> 02:30:20.040 this is a distraction, kill us and steal it from us, 2814 02:30:20.399 --> 02:30:24.920 And the son is going, no debt. He's just scared, Papa, 2815 02:30:25.000 --> 02:30:30.559 he calls him. He's just scared. And the dad is 2816 02:30:30.639 --> 02:30:32.680 like saying, if it's an ambush, you're gonna go first, 2817 02:30:32.680 --> 02:30:34.479 like it's so intense, and he's just saying, no, pap, 2818 02:30:34.520 --> 02:30:38.399 He's just scared. And he begs the father to let's 2819 02:30:38.399 --> 02:30:40.079 give him some food to feed him. He's like, please, 2820 02:30:40.159 --> 02:30:43.840 let's just give him something, and the father basically like 2821 02:30:43.920 --> 02:30:48.760 agrees and gives him a can of fruit cocktail and 2822 02:30:48.799 --> 02:30:50.319 the old man's like, what do I have to do 2823 02:30:50.399 --> 02:30:54.360 for it? And he can't even understand that they just 2824 02:30:54.399 --> 02:30:58.280 want to help. They end up like eating a meal 2825 02:30:58.319 --> 02:31:02.360 with him and it's just very beautiful. And it felt 2826 02:31:02.360 --> 02:31:06.760 like holy shit, Like in this question that we're literally 2827 02:31:06.799 --> 02:31:09.959 talking tolves what do we do? What can we do? Uh? 2828 02:31:10.000 --> 02:31:14.760 It was like there's your answer. It's uh, you help 2829 02:31:14.920 --> 02:31:18.559 everybody that you can when you can, and that these 2830 02:31:18.680 --> 02:31:23.959 very basic, small feeling things make sure people have fool 2831 02:31:24.040 --> 02:31:25.799 I mean I you know, I have a very strong 2832 02:31:25.840 --> 02:31:28.719 conviction that truly the meaning of life from a very 2833 02:31:28.760 --> 02:31:35.120 evolutionary and I think spiritual standpoint is to eat delicious 2834 02:31:35.159 --> 02:31:38.239 things and laugh in safety with people that you love. 2835 02:31:38.600 --> 02:31:41.239 And I think everybody could be afforded that and should 2836 02:31:41.280 --> 02:31:44.319 be afforded that in this world. And that feeling of 2837 02:31:44.319 --> 02:31:46.719 like when things are so intense, people are losing their homes, 2838 02:31:47.239 --> 02:31:51.120 like very simple resources like how can you help the 2839 02:31:51.159 --> 02:31:54.719 people around you? And that's where I've come to generally 2840 02:31:54.799 --> 02:31:57.280 over COVID and what the internet has done to us, 2841 02:31:57.280 --> 02:32:01.120 and the sense of helplessness and hopelessness that by focusing 2842 02:32:01.120 --> 02:32:03.239 on like the hundred people around me that I can 2843 02:32:03.360 --> 02:32:06.120 the people in my street, our neighbors, you and Gami 2844 02:32:06.479 --> 02:32:10.280 are close friends, like just doing what you can as 2845 02:32:10.319 --> 02:32:13.239 often as possible. A lot of people are citing I've 2846 02:32:13.280 --> 02:32:15.879 posted about this, and I hear think about all the time. 2847 02:32:15.920 --> 02:32:18.159 They refer to the mister Rogers quote about look for 2848 02:32:18.159 --> 02:32:20.479 the helpers, and I always just think too, like, be 2849 02:32:20.639 --> 02:32:23.440 the helpers, you know, absolutely look for the helpers. Don't 2850 02:32:23.479 --> 02:32:26.680 ignore in the scope of all the bad things we get. Yes, 2851 02:32:26.760 --> 02:32:29.319 look for the good people, but also be the good people. 2852 02:32:29.879 --> 02:32:31.799 That's like really all we can do. And this idea 2853 02:32:31.840 --> 02:32:35.000 from that of carrying the light that like, no matter 2854 02:32:35.040 --> 02:32:39.879 how hellish the world feels, the only solace I've had 2855 02:32:39.879 --> 02:32:43.000 for myself over the pandemic and different things in the 2856 02:32:43.000 --> 02:32:48.200 world feeling darker and darker, And is that every time 2857 02:32:48.959 --> 02:32:51.360 I feel dismayed at the world being the way it is, 2858 02:32:51.559 --> 02:32:53.959 Why is it so mean? Why is it so cruel? 2859 02:32:54.200 --> 02:32:57.399 Why is it so unjust? I think to myself, Well, 2860 02:32:57.440 --> 02:32:58.920 the only thing I can do is try to be 2861 02:32:59.120 --> 02:32:59.799 what I wish it. 2862 02:32:59.760 --> 02:33:04.840 Was, which is the idea also of someone sitting in 2863 02:33:04.840 --> 02:33:07.479 the road being scared of someone else who's scared of them. 2864 02:33:07.559 --> 02:33:11.680 It's that's I feel like everyone's just like a shelter 2865 02:33:11.840 --> 02:33:15.239 dog that's looking for the next blow. And so yeah, 2866 02:33:15.360 --> 02:33:19.000 it's just defense on defense on defense and cruelty on 2867 02:33:19.079 --> 02:33:22.399 cruelty and hoarding, on hoarding and greed, because no one 2868 02:33:22.600 --> 02:33:26.840 feels like other people will have their back, so it's 2869 02:33:27.079 --> 02:33:29.399 just every person for themselves. 2870 02:33:29.440 --> 02:33:31.239 And I think a profound thing about the scene in 2871 02:33:31.280 --> 02:33:34.319 the book is that the fears of the father are justified. 2872 02:33:34.639 --> 02:33:38.120 The fears are legitimate and real. This could be an ambush, 2873 02:33:38.319 --> 02:33:41.200 we could be in danger, we could be fucking idiots 2874 02:33:41.280 --> 02:33:45.719 for stopping to help somebody out. Well, you do it anyway, and. 2875 02:33:45.719 --> 02:33:48.840 That is like, that's I'm sorry, I'm losing my mind. 2876 02:33:49.239 --> 02:33:53.680 But it's a scary, sad time for so many people, 2877 02:33:53.799 --> 02:33:56.399 and it's only going to get scarier. And I think 2878 02:33:57.840 --> 02:34:01.600 we in searching for compasion for ourselves and others. There's 2879 02:34:01.639 --> 02:34:05.120 a lot of totally true stuff out there about. 2880 02:34:04.920 --> 02:34:07.600 Like only do it you can, don't be beaten yourself up, 2881 02:34:07.600 --> 02:34:10.360 don't overextend it, and that is all true. But I 2882 02:34:10.399 --> 02:34:12.399 hope that we're moving to a place where those of 2883 02:34:12.479 --> 02:34:15.040 us who are capable, if you are able to strengthen 2884 02:34:15.079 --> 02:34:19.200 yourself and then do the scary, risky thing of helping 2885 02:34:19.559 --> 02:34:22.760 and offering to help and trying, I think it's like 2886 02:34:22.920 --> 02:34:24.520 that's the only thing that's going to change the world. 2887 02:34:25.959 --> 02:34:28.200 The hell of a twenty twenty five already. 2888 02:34:28.000 --> 02:34:29.159 Dude, the first. 2889 02:34:31.000 --> 02:34:31.319 Fuck. 2890 02:34:32.440 --> 02:34:35.440 And so that's the secret this week is we had 2891 02:34:35.479 --> 02:34:35.959 an a. 2892 02:34:37.520 --> 02:34:37.920 Oh. 2893 02:34:38.000 --> 02:34:40.680 The secret is that your husband is becoming terminally mystical 2894 02:34:41.040 --> 02:34:44.159 and you are you have one of the top science 2895 02:34:44.200 --> 02:34:47.120 podcasts in the world, and you are unfortunately married to 2896 02:34:47.239 --> 02:34:50.239 an absolute cook Listen. 2897 02:34:50.280 --> 02:34:53.239 I think trying to find meaning and trying to find well. 2898 02:34:53.079 --> 02:34:54.719 A charred page of a book fell out of the sky. 2899 02:34:54.840 --> 02:34:58.360 Darling, you must have had the words among the ashes. 2900 02:34:58.680 --> 02:35:01.079 Yeah, from one of those meaning books in my life 2901 02:35:01.120 --> 02:35:04.559 about an apocalypse. Also, everyone listening to this should read 2902 02:35:04.559 --> 02:35:05.440 Octavia Butler. 2903 02:35:05.680 --> 02:35:06.920 Oh, Octavia Butler. 2904 02:35:07.000 --> 02:35:09.079 I read The Whole Sewer, Pair of All Sewers, which. 2905 02:35:10.040 --> 02:35:13.040 Which is set a few miles from where we live 2906 02:35:13.200 --> 02:35:13.920 in Alta Dina. 2907 02:35:14.159 --> 02:35:17.280 She literally wrote it in at Altadina, about Altadna about 2908 02:35:17.399 --> 02:35:21.360 this year. Basically there's it features a fascist president who 2909 02:35:21.799 --> 02:35:24.200 make America great again? Is that they is his slogan, 2910 02:35:24.319 --> 02:35:26.200 that's his actual slogan in the book. It's like which 2911 02:35:26.239 --> 02:35:28.040 I think was Reagan's or something like that as well. 2912 02:35:28.879 --> 02:35:32.280 But she is We've been talking about this too, the 2913 02:35:33.719 --> 02:35:37.840 the curse of reading. If you consume literature and history. 2914 02:35:38.040 --> 02:35:40.680 Suddenly you start having these prophetic visions that come true 2915 02:35:40.680 --> 02:35:43.520 all the time because you have accessed and consumed the 2916 02:35:43.639 --> 02:35:45.920 shared wisdom of all the people that came before you. 2917 02:35:46.360 --> 02:35:51.559 Pattern recognition becomes uh like so much more of a 2918 02:35:51.600 --> 02:35:55.159 blow when you have that much more data, Yeah, to correlate. 2919 02:35:55.200 --> 02:35:55.319 Well. 2920 02:35:55.319 --> 02:35:57.879 It also can make you feel very lonely when everyone 2921 02:35:57.920 --> 02:35:59.639 else is like, what are you talking about? What do 2922 02:35:59.639 --> 02:35:59.920 you see? 2923 02:36:00.000 --> 02:36:00.799 Everything's fine? 2924 02:36:01.360 --> 02:36:03.639 Or I don't nobody can has any idea why this 2925 02:36:03.639 --> 02:36:06.799 stuff is going on. Actually you're like, we do, Yeah, 2926 02:36:06.879 --> 02:36:07.799 we could not do it. 2927 02:36:07.920 --> 02:36:09.760 We can say something else to end it on an 2928 02:36:09.799 --> 02:36:10.399 up notte. 2929 02:36:11.760 --> 02:36:15.639 Help who you can, even in small gestures, taking in 2930 02:36:15.680 --> 02:36:18.000 our neighbors packages right now. 2931 02:36:18.879 --> 02:36:20.680 Yeah, checking in with each other. A lot of. 2932 02:36:20.680 --> 02:36:21.479 People there are. 2933 02:36:21.719 --> 02:36:26.000 You don't have to save the entire world yourself. You 2934 02:36:26.000 --> 02:36:29.000 don't have to come up with some gram plan to 2935 02:36:29.079 --> 02:36:32.040 reverse climate change on your own, but you could definitely 2936 02:36:32.120 --> 02:36:32.879 check in on people. 2937 02:36:32.959 --> 02:36:34.159 Yeah, check in on people. 2938 02:36:34.360 --> 02:36:36.959 Offer to lend you got to pickup truck, Offer to 2939 02:36:37.000 --> 02:36:40.959 help someone move something heavy if you can, or lend 2940 02:36:40.959 --> 02:36:42.760 it it. Just stuff like that anyway. 2941 02:36:42.639 --> 02:36:44.840 So much that, yeah, so much, and just be adaptable, 2942 02:36:45.120 --> 02:36:47.920 be flexible, lead with love, carry the light. 2943 02:36:48.360 --> 02:36:53.440 And maybe maybe we're in a simulation and it's getting 2944 02:36:54.239 --> 02:36:55.360 goofy as hell. 2945 02:36:55.520 --> 02:36:57.520 Well, and what I said to you about that, even 2946 02:36:57.559 --> 02:36:59.959 if we're in a simulation, Yeah, the love is still 2947 02:37:00.399 --> 02:37:00.959 loves real. 2948 02:37:01.319 --> 02:37:04.200 Yeah. Well, thanks for telling the secret. 2949 02:37:03.959 --> 02:37:06.200 Thanks for inviting me on for your secret telling. 2950 02:37:06.680 --> 02:37:07.280 I love you. 2951 02:37:07.479 --> 02:37:11.360 I love your show. Our show, well, our show, yeah, 2952 02:37:11.440 --> 02:37:12.959 our show. Sure, our show. 2953 02:37:13.639 --> 02:37:14.799 Get an emergency kit. 2954 02:37:15.040 --> 02:37:16.639 Actually don't know if that's true. You might have invented 2955 02:37:16.639 --> 02:37:18.520 the show before we were married, so legally, I just 2956 02:37:18.520 --> 02:37:20.319 don't want you to feel weird about that. I think 2957 02:37:20.319 --> 02:37:21.600 of it as your show. I don't think of it 2958 02:37:21.600 --> 02:37:22.159 as our show. 2959 02:37:22.520 --> 02:37:24.920 It's but it's but it's communal property in California. 2960 02:37:24.959 --> 02:37:27.319 Baby, guys, who knows, I don't. 2961 02:37:27.120 --> 02:37:27.879 Know who would get gone. 2962 02:37:28.239 --> 02:37:29.799 Difference isn't you'd be through the rest of your life. 2963 02:37:29.799 --> 02:37:31.840 You're stuck until I'm dead, so. 2964 02:37:32.479 --> 02:37:35.719 Which we never know how long we've got done. Yeah, Okay, 2965 02:37:35.719 --> 02:37:36.799 Well that's it for this week. 2966 02:37:36.879 --> 02:37:38.879 I'm going to go sleep because I have a headache, 2967 02:37:38.920 --> 02:37:41.799 And next week fresh episode for you. I'm already mostly 2968 02:37:41.840 --> 02:37:43.319 done with it, but I just couldn't pull it off 2969 02:37:43.319 --> 02:37:44.840 tonight very exciting, Jim Mask. 2970 02:37:45.239 --> 02:37:46.079 Put your o's on. 2971 02:37:46.319 --> 02:37:48.239 Yeah, hey, put your respirator on first. 2972 02:37:48.479 --> 02:37:51.920 I'm doing it. Thanks babes, thank you, love you, love 2973 02:37:51.959 --> 02:37:52.559 you bybe. 2974 02:38:12.159 --> 02:38:15.440 He leaned on his cane and lowered himself into the road, 2975 02:38:15.479 --> 02:38:18.399 where he sat among the ashes with one hand over 2976 02:38:18.440 --> 02:38:18.920 his head.