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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the nonprofits. For our second segment.

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<v Speaker 2>This week, we go all the way to Utah, where

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<v Speaker 2>the science seems to be slapping legislators in the face. AJ,

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<v Speaker 2>what's going on down in the Beehive State?

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<v Speaker 3>Very true? Yes, So. Although Utah's Governor, Spencer Cox is

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<v Speaker 3>a Republican, he has been very open about his support

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<v Speaker 3>for transgender young people's rights. In twenty twenty three, he

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<v Speaker 3>introduced a bill in order to get the Utah Health

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<v Speaker 3>Department to conduct a review of medical evidence so that

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<v Speaker 3>they could collect data regarding the effects of medical treatment

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<v Speaker 3>for transgender kids. He hoped to get a deeper understanding

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<v Speaker 3>of the science in order to better serve them. However,

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<v Speaker 3>legislators that supported transgender care bands hope to prove that

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<v Speaker 3>this kind of medical care was harmful. But now that

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<v Speaker 3>the review has arrived after two years, those that supported

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<v Speaker 3>the ban and wanted the review you are not really

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<v Speaker 3>happy about the results, and they've decided to do what

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<v Speaker 3>they do best, ignore them, just like they do the

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<v Speaker 3>entire Old Testament.

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<v Speaker 1>Easy, busy.

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<v Speaker 3>So this story is from mother Jones by Madison Paully

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<v Speaker 3>on May twenty four, twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>All Right, AJ, let's just keep it going.

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<v Speaker 2>I want you to talk a little bit about these results.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the headlines call them inconvenient. You know, we've

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<v Speaker 2>said that, you know, it's kind of slapping them in

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<v Speaker 2>the face.

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<v Speaker 1>What were some of those results? What did they find out?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So the authors of this studies said that the

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<v Speaker 3>consensus of the evidence supports that the treatments are effective

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<v Speaker 3>in terms of mental health, psychosocial outcomes, and induction of

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<v Speaker 3>body changes consistent with the affirmed gender in pediatric patients.

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<v Speaker 3>So the evidence also supports that the treatments are safe

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<v Speaker 3>in the terms of things like changes the bond density,

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<v Speaker 3>cardiovascular risk factors, metabolic changes, and cancer. So it's their

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<v Speaker 3>expert opinion that policies to prevent access to the use

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<v Speaker 3>of gender affirming hormone therapy for treatment of gender dysphoria

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<v Speaker 3>and pediatric patients cannot be justified based on the quality

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<v Speaker 3>or the quantity of the medical science findings or concerns

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<v Speaker 3>about potential regard in the future. So they say that

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<v Speaker 3>high quality guidelines are available to guide qualified providers in

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<v Speaker 3>treating pediatric patients who meet the diagnostic criteria. And here

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<v Speaker 3>the keyword is experts in qualified providers. Okay, this is

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<v Speaker 3>how it should be, Like, yeah, we trust the advice

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<v Speaker 3>of these people that have studied, that have worked in

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<v Speaker 3>the fields. And this is not blind trust. Again, it's

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<v Speaker 3>not blind out theo he trust. Yeah, what we trust

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<v Speaker 3>is that this science is proving itself over and over again,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, based on repeated testing.

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<v Speaker 2>And then it couldn't be more obvious, it seems to me.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it was completely unambiguous against what, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>what they were saying, or actually in favor of what

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<v Speaker 2>the governor was going for. You know, the governor wanted

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<v Speaker 2>support for these kind of programs. Opponents say, no, no,

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<v Speaker 2>we can't do that. Let's see what the science has

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<v Speaker 2>to say. And then the science comes back and it

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<v Speaker 2>is totally in favor of those kids.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I mean even more so. He wanted truth. So

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<v Speaker 4>even if he wanted support, didn't want support. He funded

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<v Speaker 4>like shit with some really good controls put in place,

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<v Speaker 4>and like he just wanted to like settle it. Like

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<v Speaker 4>and that's where I can appreciate somebody. It's like the

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<v Speaker 4>dude like irrespective of you know, the team that he

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<v Speaker 4>plays for, Like he's a decent guy. Like fuck, yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>this dude, like Yeah, we need more of these guys

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<v Speaker 4>for this guy.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, if you're doing good things, it doesn't to me,

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<v Speaker 3>it doesn't really matter. Like there is a local representative

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<v Speaker 3>in Texas that has been fighting against things like the

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<v Speaker 3>same commandments and he's a Christian like that kind of things.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, bro.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But then of course now they're backtracking right now

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<v Speaker 2>now that the science has come through, you know, they

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<v Speaker 2>have at least the the facade or the image of well,

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<v Speaker 2>let's see what the science has to say, and then

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<v Speaker 2>the science comes back and then they're like, oh, who

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<v Speaker 2>cares what the science says, here's what we want to do. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>it seems like it like they've just kind of whipped

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<v Speaker 2>it out right there. I mean, it's like they're totally

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<v Speaker 2>exposing their their their motivations. I don't know, agy what

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<v Speaker 2>do you think about that? What do you think about

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<v Speaker 2>how does this affect, you know, the perception or at

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<v Speaker 2>least the know. It seems like the facade is not

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<v Speaker 2>even a good word, because it's like they almost don't

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<v Speaker 2>even care what the what the optics look like, and

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<v Speaker 2>it seems like it's just.

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<v Speaker 1>All about the goal, all about the end goal.

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<v Speaker 2>We need to end up we need to take whatever

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<v Speaker 2>we need to say or do or ask or research

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<v Speaker 2>any particular you know, whatever whatever is possible to get

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<v Speaker 2>us to this predetermined outcome.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know any anybody have any thoughts on that.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh man, Yeah, I really think that it doesn't really

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<v Speaker 3>matter what the results were. Those that were in support

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<v Speaker 3>of their healthcareman for transgender kids, weren't going to do

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<v Speaker 3>whatever they wanted to do in the end, Like there

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<v Speaker 3>were just that was the plan the entire time, to

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<v Speaker 3>ignore the results and be like, hey, you know what,

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<v Speaker 3>now we get to design what we already knew we

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to do. They just wasted out of that time,

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<v Speaker 3>Like they don't even like they ignore the science that's

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<v Speaker 3>eventually going to be guiding these qualified providers that we

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<v Speaker 3>just talk about, like that's what's showed matter, Like, you

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<v Speaker 3>do the research, then you give that information to the

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<v Speaker 3>providers and let them and their patients make these decisions

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<v Speaker 3>like doctor, surgeon, psychologists. They let them do their jobs

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<v Speaker 3>and understanding of the treatments to the patients.

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<v Speaker 4>Dude, all those all those providers are they're representative of truth.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, what's the job that I do right now?

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<v Speaker 4>It's I represent international codes that are like very strict.

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<v Speaker 4>And when I go to these job sites and I

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<v Speaker 4>do these inspections and we do these tests and these

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<v Speaker 4>chemical tests and all this nerdy science shit, and I'm like, well,

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<v Speaker 4>this obviously fucking failed. They're like, well, blah blah blah.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm like, dude, look at look read my fucking code Bible.

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<v Speaker 4>You know this is this is what the Code Bible says.

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<v Speaker 4>You can't argue with this. This is what you also

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<v Speaker 4>agreed to and signed. So even if you say the

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<v Speaker 4>code you too, you agreed to do this, and this

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<v Speaker 4>isn't the thing you agreed to, So like, you just

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<v Speaker 4>have to fucking do it. So you can cry at

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<v Speaker 4>me all day if you want. But I'm just representing

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<v Speaker 4>the truth at this point. So that's where the whole

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<v Speaker 4>experts are. All they are are people who have been

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<v Speaker 4>vetted and trained to take things that are true and

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<v Speaker 4>in the medical sense, and what I do as well

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<v Speaker 4>make sure that the things that are happening do no harm.

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<v Speaker 4>Right at that point, we're just doing quality control on humanity.

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<v Speaker 4>And I don't know what the fucking problem is other

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<v Speaker 4>than what aj in Scott, what you guys are saying

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<v Speaker 4>is that they have a fucking ideological motivation. And I'm

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<v Speaker 4>sure somebody's lining their fucking pockets because let's face it,

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<v Speaker 4>this is America. Somebody's making money on everybody, you know.

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<v Speaker 4>So this is an ideologically based exactly. So if you

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<v Speaker 4>say you believe a fucking thing in an area where

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<v Speaker 4>it's saturated with people who are purposely ignorant, and you

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<v Speaker 4>have campaigned for their ignorance in that area and in

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<v Speaker 4>theun data and inculcated them with your own version of shit,

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<v Speaker 4>that makes you money, and then you all everybody gets

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<v Speaker 4>a job because everybody who fucking knows each other, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>I know you, you know me, We get each other

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<v Speaker 4>a job. That's how it works everywhere in America. I

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<v Speaker 4>don't pretend like it doesn't. I mean, that's why Johnny

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<v Speaker 4>Depp's fucking daughter gets that fancy ass role in that movie.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, come on, you know, so when you look

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<v Speaker 4>at what's really happening and you admit what's really fucking

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<v Speaker 4>happening in this world, somebody is being incentivized to be

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<v Speaker 4>a piece of fucking shit and to treat people like shit.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's it. There's no mystery behind it.

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<v Speaker 2>Right right, exactly. I do have some research I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to bring up. But before we do that, aj, I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to ask you, I know that you had a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit about the scope of the research. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it wasn't just a just a single paper that they

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<v Speaker 2>were looking at. What tell us a little bit about

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<v Speaker 2>the about what it was that they were looking at.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I wanted to point out that what was published

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<v Speaker 3>on the whole thing that happened throughout all of these

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<v Speaker 3>two years wasn't a single study. It wasn't like a

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<v Speaker 3>clinical trial type of results. Rather what's called medical evidence review.

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<v Speaker 3>And so the Drug regi Review Center at the University

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<v Speaker 3>of Utah spent those two years compiling all that data

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<v Speaker 3>and the results of other studies and literature regarding the

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<v Speaker 3>effectiveness of gender affirming care for trans youth. So the authors,

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<v Speaker 3>after they collected everything, they said that the conventional was

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<v Speaker 3>domb among non experts has long been that there is

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<v Speaker 3>limited data on gender affirming pediatric care. However, the results

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<v Speaker 3>from our exhaustive literature have led us to the opposite conclusion.

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<v Speaker 3>So basically, the federal government recently tried to do a

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<v Speaker 3>similar review, right, and except that they didn't like three

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<v Speaker 3>months and do that. Unlike right, unlike the University of

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<v Speaker 3>view that review the government papers cited fake experts and

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<v Speaker 3>papers that never existed. So I mean you can decide here, Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>which one would you trust more? An artificial intelligence review

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<v Speaker 3>with fake sources or a University of review that took

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<v Speaker 3>two years and the high proper citations.

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<v Speaker 2>Really, you can't get a stronger scientific statement than that

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<v Speaker 2>a literature review of all available evidence compiled into a

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<v Speaker 2>single report.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you can't get stronger evidence than that.

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<v Speaker 3>Cited cited, which is the most important.

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<v Speaker 2>Part cited with real citations at should point out, which is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, that's it's not just citation need. We need

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<v Speaker 2>to add the you know, we need to change the

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the common phrase citation needed, real citation needed.

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<v Speaker 2>We need to add to that, yeah, citing citations. I

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<v Speaker 2>do want to throw out a little bit of research

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<v Speaker 2>here because one of the main non religious arguments against

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<v Speaker 2>gender affirming care and youth is that is that this

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<v Speaker 2>type of care can make changes to the patient's bodies,

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<v Speaker 2>which of course is the whole point and the intention

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<v Speaker 2>that it can, But they say that it can be

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<v Speaker 2>difficult or impossible to reverse, and so but again, not surprisingly,

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<v Speaker 2>the actual real research shows that this is just not

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<v Speaker 2>an issue.

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<v Speaker 1>Here is.

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<v Speaker 2>This is from a twenty twenty three study published in

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<v Speaker 2>the Journal of American Medical Association Surgery. It says, quote

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<v Speaker 2>evidence suggests that less than one percent of transgender people

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<v Speaker 2>who undergo gender affirming surgery report regret. That proportion is

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<v Speaker 2>even more striking when compared to the fact that fourteen

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<v Speaker 2>point four percent of the broader population reports regrets after

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<v Speaker 2>similar surgeries. For example, studies have found that between five

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<v Speaker 2>and fourteen percent of all women who receive mastectomies to

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<v Speaker 2>reduce the risk of developing breast cancer say they regret

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<v Speaker 2>to do so. However, less than one percent of transgender

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<v Speaker 2>men who receive the same procedure report regret.

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<v Speaker 1>And so if we.

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<v Speaker 2>Compare the exact and so, they are making changes to

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<v Speaker 2>their bodies. They're trying to, you know, make their outer

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<v Speaker 2>self look like what they feel like their inner self

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<v Speaker 2>is right. They want to make themselves whole, They want

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<v Speaker 2>to make themselves complete. They want to they feel like

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<v Speaker 2>it's their destiny. And I feel like I'm I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>too far and what I'm saying here, so please rain

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<v Speaker 2>me in if I am I don't want to. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to speak to anyone else's experience. But the

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<v Speaker 2>evidence shows that the regret levels are just way way lower,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't know. It seems like it should undermine

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<v Speaker 2>that argument. Obviously it doesn't. Some people don't listen to

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<v Speaker 2>things like actual research and that kin kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry, Jason, go ahead, what were you going to say?

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<v Speaker 4>No? No, the look man even And I don't want

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<v Speaker 4>to call it extreme because body modification. I mean, look

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<v Speaker 4>at me, I'm covered. I don't give a fuck. You know,

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<v Speaker 4>it's your body, dude, you are your body. Not even

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<v Speaker 4>it's your body. You are your body. Do what the

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<v Speaker 4>fuck you want. I don't care that said. Let's let's

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<v Speaker 4>let's let's take out surgical, hormonal chemical. Let's let's get

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<v Speaker 4>rid of that. If you look at transgender youth, let's say,

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<v Speaker 4>ages thirteen to seventeen, what's amazing is then this is

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<v Speaker 4>consistent across the board. Is that just a we're talking

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<v Speaker 4>a singular like primary socialite, primary agent, like a singular parent,

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<v Speaker 4>like a singular person who shows unbridled support for their explorations,

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<v Speaker 4>for their for their social transitions, for the name changes,

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<v Speaker 4>for all the things that anybody who has a transgender

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<v Speaker 4>or gender fluid kid understands speaking about this. Things like

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<v Speaker 4>again trigger warning, things like suicidality are drastically impact. What

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<v Speaker 4>we see is for those who do not have a

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<v Speaker 4>primary agent who is supporting you again one parent, one

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<v Speaker 4>very like one very close family member, Like it's got

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<v Speaker 4>to be like inner circle shit. Like if you're not supported,

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<v Speaker 4>your suicidality risk goes up like across the board, like

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<v Speaker 4>eight to nine hundred percent. Like we're talking it is

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<v Speaker 4>ridiculous how much risk you are at as a trans

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<v Speaker 4>and I mean, and it's very similar for just literally

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<v Speaker 4>for queer youth in general. As an umbrella statement, we're

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<v Speaker 4>talking five six hundred percent on average suicidality, suicide attempt,

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<v Speaker 4>suicidal ideation, Depression, I mean, we're talking depression. If you

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<v Speaker 4>listen to Sebalski, is the number two killer in the world,

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<v Speaker 4>like true depression. Depression. Depression is a physiological, physical illness

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<v Speaker 4>that just annihilates humanity. It's it's up there with heart

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<v Speaker 4>disease and what it does you physically and physiologically and socially,

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<v Speaker 4>what it does to your whole being is is just insidious.

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<v Speaker 4>And it gets perpetuated by by fucking monsters like these

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<v Speaker 4>people who are who are promoting this insidious, horrific goal

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<v Speaker 4>that they're capitalizing on. So if people actually cared about

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<v Speaker 4>things like truth, actual truth, like real things like I'm

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<v Speaker 4>talking into a microphone talking to two people that I

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<v Speaker 4>really like. I got a bag of chips next to

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<v Speaker 4>me that I can't wait to dive into in the

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<v Speaker 4>next five minutes. And some apple juice I've been drinking

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<v Speaker 4>that tastes great. That's the true shit. So true shit

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<v Speaker 4>also is if you affirm these kids and you affirm adults,

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<v Speaker 4>they keep on living. And what's really funny is queer

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<v Speaker 4>people in general, whenever their lives are just as normal

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<v Speaker 4>as everybody else is, actually report a higher quality of

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<v Speaker 4>life than straight people, which is fucking hilarious to me.

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<v Speaker 4>So less suicidality, more joy in life, less, less death,

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<v Speaker 4>anxiety less, I mean every thing, like more straight report,

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<v Speaker 4>more hobbies, more and more advancements. I mean, yeah, so

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<v Speaker 4>you know, maybe they're just scared. You know, maybe it's

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<v Speaker 4>scared because they hate us. You know, you're gonna hate

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<v Speaker 4>on us because we're so fucking awesome. So I don't know,

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<v Speaker 4>those are my feelings.

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<v Speaker 2>That's really part of the asenine, the most asenine part

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<v Speaker 2>of this whole thing is that all of the research

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you mentioned all these different psychological outcomes, emotional outcomes,

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<v Speaker 2>social outcomes, uh, physical outcomes.

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<v Speaker 1>It's across the board. It is it is uh.

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<v Speaker 2>Definitely significantly one sided and unambiguous that there is that

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<v Speaker 2>there are benefits to to supporting call me crazy, supporting

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<v Speaker 2>human beings for to be themselves. I mean, it seems

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<v Speaker 2>it seems impossible to me that somebody could not appreciate that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just I mean it. I would try to.

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<v Speaker 2>Get into the mind of that of that mindset if

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<v Speaker 2>I if it didn't terrify.

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<v Speaker 4>Me, not that hard man, Why does that seem impossible

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<v Speaker 4>to you?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't I want to understand, but I want I'm

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<v Speaker 2>worried about what is that? How is that going to

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<v Speaker 2>smudge my Soul's simple?

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<v Speaker 4>It's cognitive dissonance.

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<v Speaker 3>Man.

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<v Speaker 4>If if you people people use that word all the time,

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<v Speaker 4>that term cognitive dissonance. What they don't realize cognitive dissonance

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<v Speaker 4>has to do with your self esteem, right, and it

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<v Speaker 4>is one of the most well studied things in psychology.

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<v Speaker 4>Your dissonance will push you to do horrendous things. And

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<v Speaker 4>that's it. Anybody wants to look into it, feel free

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<v Speaker 4>to look into if you care about how human beings

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<v Speaker 4>think and why they act the way they do. Cognitive

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<v Speaker 4>fucking dissonance, that's it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, ye, sorry, I want to make sure we get

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<v Speaker 2>into AJ, but I want to direct you with a

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<v Speaker 2>little question here first and okay, sorry, go ahead.

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<v Speaker 3>No, no, no, you go first to a.

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<v Speaker 2>Right because I wanted to make sure it because we're

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<v Speaker 2>running out of time here, and I wanted to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure that we touched on that. I wanted to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure that we touched on the religious art against against

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of thing, and so supposedly the argument is

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<v Speaker 2>that this goes against the will and intention of God

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<v Speaker 2>and we're changing God's perfect work. But I want I

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<v Speaker 2>want to hear from you AJA comment on that in

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<v Speaker 2>regard in the context of other types of body changing

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<v Speaker 2>treatments that seem to be okay. I mean, we have

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<v Speaker 2>things that are simple and superficial, things like hair plugs,

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<v Speaker 2>things like cosmetic surgeries and stuff like that, all the

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<v Speaker 2>way up to you know, the more severe end of

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<v Speaker 2>things like congenital heart defects and cleft palates and stuff

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<v Speaker 2>like that. It seems that some kinds of body modification

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<v Speaker 2>are acceptable and some of them are not. What are

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<v Speaker 2>what are your thoughts on that? Is this really just

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<v Speaker 2>basic hypocrisy or is there some kind of significance that

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<v Speaker 2>we're that we're missing.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's a little bit of what Jason what

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<v Speaker 3>was talking about? The cognitive dissonance? Okay, because there is

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<v Speaker 3>no other way to explain it, really, how somebody cannot

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<v Speaker 3>support Joinder affirming care for transgender people only because they

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<v Speaker 3>supported in any other context. I you know a woman

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<v Speaker 3>who has had both implants, and she's recently had a

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<v Speaker 3>whole facial surgery with like neck stuff done, and like

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<v Speaker 3>what they like pull your skin and they literally like

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<v Speaker 3>peel the outer layer of your skin. It's like the

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<v Speaker 3>whole thing. She looks way different than she did before

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<v Speaker 3>the surgeries. All right, So how are you not changing

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<v Speaker 3>what God the way that God made you? How does

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<v Speaker 3>how does that not change?

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<v Speaker 1>Right? Exactly?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah? So, like I completely support her right to do that, Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>but just the way we support that, we should be

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<v Speaker 3>supporting transgender people's rights to do the same with their

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<v Speaker 3>bodies and it can't even be more simple things like

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<v Speaker 3>not superficial things like that. If I am definitely right,

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<v Speaker 3>I was one with pretty severe hearing loss and what

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<v Speaker 3>was that twenty seventeen, I had a cochlear implant, and

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<v Speaker 3>I was like a year ago I was talking to

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<v Speaker 3>a Catholic family member and we were talking about drungender

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<v Speaker 3>people and like the way that they, you know, they

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<v Speaker 3>should be allowed to have whatever surgery they want to.

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<v Speaker 3>And I was like, what about like something like my implant?

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<v Speaker 3>Should I not have heard that? And he's like, well,

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<v Speaker 3>you should have really like been happy with the body

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<v Speaker 3>that you would give.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh seriously, like somebody even say that. I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>a good thing to say, fuck you there.

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<v Speaker 2>Way is exactly what Jason was talking about. That's the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of thing that you get pushed into saying. That's

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<v Speaker 2>the corner that you get painted into. Not this type

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<v Speaker 2>of approach.

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<v Speaker 3>You yeah, because you have to, because if you don't

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<v Speaker 3>support one, then you cannot logically support any kind of surgery,

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<v Speaker 3>not even not even life say mean sogery.

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<v Speaker 4>It's fucking insane. That's how people can morally bankrupt. Dude,

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<v Speaker 4>You're right, they can't support They have to keep fucking

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<v Speaker 4>they have to keep fucking letting it go. And it's

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<v Speaker 4>just fucking lies in the leveolence all the way down

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<v Speaker 4>until they like sacrifice their own kids for their own

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<v Speaker 4>fucking appearance. It's crazy. It's them.

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<v Speaker 1>I need to go out.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I need to go for a run or

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<v Speaker 2>something after or I need to work out some of

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<v Speaker 2>this some of this energy here. But uh, but excellent,

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<v Speaker 2>excellent conversation. I really appreciate both of you sharing, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>some very personal information too. I mean it's it's uh,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that just really kind of adds the exclamation

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<v Speaker 2>point to the to the to the opinions that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>with this kind of thing affects real.

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<v Speaker 1>People, and you know, it's easy, it's easier, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Should say, to to push things off if it's not

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<v Speaker 2>it's if it's not in your backyard or not in

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<v Speaker 2>your family, or not in you But you know, we

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<v Speaker 2>we all know people that that this is affecting one

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<v Speaker 2>not you know, directly, and so it's, uh, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's you know, I thought people were supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>care about each other. I thought people were supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>help each other. I thought people were supposed to work together.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought we were supposed to be a societal animal.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, maybe my expectations are just too high.

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<v Speaker 4>They are it's by design, man, There's no ethical consumption

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<v Speaker 4>or interaction in a capitalistic state.

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<v Speaker 2>So excellent words to end on here. So thank you

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<v Speaker 2>both again for participating, Thank all of you for listening.

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<v Speaker 2>I really appreciate that. I hope that you get riled

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<v Speaker 2>up about this this topic, just like like we did.