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<v Speaker 1>This is later with Lee Matthews the Lee Matthews Podcast

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<v Speaker 1>More what You Hear weekday Afternoons.

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<v Speaker 2>On the Drive That Segeloff as a writer and producer

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<v Speaker 2>and journalist. He is the author of fourteen published books,

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<v Speaker 2>including books on the life and films of William Friedkin,

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<v Speaker 2>Arthur Penn, John Houston, and many many more. His newest

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<v Speaker 2>creation is something I have a lot of interest in.

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<v Speaker 2>It's called The Naughty Bits What the censors wouldn't let

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<v Speaker 2>you see in Hollywood's most famous movies. Welcome, That's good

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<v Speaker 2>to have.

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<v Speaker 3>You along, Thanks Lley. I'm looking forward to talking to

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<v Speaker 3>you too.

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<v Speaker 2>What brought you to this topic? I mean, we all

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<v Speaker 2>know that there were certain amounts of censorship back in

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<v Speaker 2>the early days of film. What brought your interest to it?

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<v Speaker 3>When I was writing another book on Auto Premager, who

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<v Speaker 3>pretty much broke the production code back in the nineteen

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<v Speaker 3>fifties and sixties, the Emotion Picture Academy gave me access

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<v Speaker 3>to thousands of letters from the Production Code office, and

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<v Speaker 3>I just started going through them like a little kid

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<v Speaker 3>reading World Book. I couldn't stop reading them and figure

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<v Speaker 3>there was a book in here somewhere. And then at

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<v Speaker 3>some point it occurred to me that the motion picture

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<v Speaker 3>industry was the first woke organization in America. They were

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<v Speaker 3>so concerned about offending anybody that they wound up offending

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<v Speaker 3>no one. Things have changed, of course, WILK has a

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<v Speaker 3>quite different meeting today. But I was fascinated with going

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<v Speaker 3>through all these things and realizing what they had to

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<v Speaker 3>cut out of movies which you couldn't imagine they would

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<v Speaker 3>have had anything bad in.

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<v Speaker 2>And this was all self imposed. Did not the government

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<v Speaker 2>come to the movie industry at some point say, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>start governing yourself, or we will.

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<v Speaker 3>It was even worse than that. It wasn't the government,

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<v Speaker 3>It was hundreds of governments. That was municipalities. You see

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<v Speaker 3>a series of sex and drug scandals in the nineteen

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<v Speaker 3>twenties in Hollywood brought down the wrath of all the

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<v Speaker 3>local communities who wanted to sensor movies. And that was impractical,

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<v Speaker 3>because how does a film company make twenty different versions

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<v Speaker 3>of the same movie, depending whether you can show it

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<v Speaker 3>in Oklahoma or Grand Rapids or San Diego or whatever.

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<v Speaker 3>A industry got together informed what is now the Motion

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<v Speaker 3>Picture Association, but back then was called the Motion Picture

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<v Speaker 3>Producers and Distributors association. They appointed a man named will Hayes,

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<v Speaker 3>who looked like he fell out of the grant Wood painting,

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<v Speaker 3>to be the Czar of all the Rushes, as they

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<v Speaker 3>called him. And they established a list of don'ts and

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<v Speaker 3>be careful of things that would get you in trouble

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<v Speaker 3>with local communities if you dared put them in your film.

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<v Speaker 3>And I can't read that because it's one solid list

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<v Speaker 3>of trigger warnings, but it's all in the book Naughty Bits.

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<v Speaker 3>At that point the industry took over censoring itself and forestalled,

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<v Speaker 3>if you will, having lots of local communities, do.

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<v Speaker 2>It the naughty bits what the censors wouldn't let you see.

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<v Speaker 2>And Hollywood's most famous movies that Segal office, the author.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's start with some of those classic films like the

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<v Speaker 2>Biggie Gone with the Wind, that.

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<v Speaker 3>Of course is most famous for Frankly, my dear and

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<v Speaker 3>I don't give a damn. But in fact there were

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<v Speaker 3>also other elements of the film, in particular the birth

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<v Speaker 3>of Melanie's child which might have been too explicitly shown,

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<v Speaker 3>the portrayal of African Americans. They actually used the N

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<v Speaker 3>word in the book, and they wouldn't let that in

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<v Speaker 3>the movie, the producers consulted the NAACP about the treatment

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<v Speaker 3>of black people in slavery, of course, And the thing

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<v Speaker 3>that most people don't realize is after Scarlett is attacked

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<v Speaker 3>going over the bridge, Rhet and the other man go

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<v Speaker 3>out and try to roust all of the people who

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<v Speaker 3>were living homeless in that encampment. Well, Rhet and Ashley,

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<v Speaker 3>that's the gu Glux klan ah, and they cut that

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<v Speaker 3>part out. They couldn't call them that. So there was

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<v Speaker 3>quite a bit of changing done between the book Gone

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<v Speaker 3>with the.

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<v Speaker 2>Wind, one of my favorites, Casablanca.

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<v Speaker 3>H that's great. Rick and Ilsa, of course, were involved

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<v Speaker 3>in an illicit romance when she thought that Victor was dead,

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<v Speaker 3>rather than finding out that he was in a concentration camp.

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<v Speaker 3>And in fact it was she who abandoned Rick at

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<v Speaker 3>the train station along with Sam when she found out

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<v Speaker 3>that Victor was alive. But we really don't know if

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<v Speaker 3>she took off her dress before the Germans left her below.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah, so they weren't allowed to tell us if that

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<v Speaker 2>was actually what happened.

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<v Speaker 3>There are some indications that they may have done some

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<v Speaker 3>hanky panky, but we really don't have any sense of

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<v Speaker 3>that the film moves along so fast, I don't think

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<v Speaker 3>anybody thinks about it.

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<v Speaker 2>No no, and film naw was coming along then anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>So a lot of the way you produced and wrote

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<v Speaker 2>was changing.

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<v Speaker 3>Everything was changing after World War Two. Of course, Casablanca

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<v Speaker 3>was during the war, and it was geared to the

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<v Speaker 3>war effort at a time when the Allies weren't doing

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<v Speaker 3>very well. But you're right. After World War two, film

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<v Speaker 3>noir came along, and that was much more of an

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<v Speaker 3>adult genre, and in fact, audiences who had been hired

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<v Speaker 3>by the war were not about to go back to

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<v Speaker 3>the pablem they'd have to endure from the nineteen thirties.

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<v Speaker 3>That caused a lot of pressure on the Production Code

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<v Speaker 3>to change, and one of the reasons the Production Code

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<v Speaker 3>was in trouble was it couldn't change. That led to

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<v Speaker 3>its eventual dissolution in the nineteen sixties.

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<v Speaker 2>The Naughty Bits what the censors wouldn't let you see

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<v Speaker 2>in Hollywood's most famous movies, and that segal Off is

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<v Speaker 2>the author, and we're talking to him about some of

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<v Speaker 2>the favorite movies where this happened. The Ten Commandments. We

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<v Speaker 2>are talking the nineteen fifties version, not the original silent version.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right. I had to put the Ten Commandments and

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<v Speaker 3>the Sound of Music in just to show that the

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<v Speaker 3>Production Code office looked at every movie, whether it was

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<v Speaker 3>supposed to be scurrilous or not. Of course, sound of

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<v Speaker 3>music coast to thrill with no problem. The Ten Commandments

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<v Speaker 3>actually had a censored moment at the very beginning, when

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<v Speaker 3>Pharaoh hears that there's going to be a deliverer born

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<v Speaker 3>among the Hebrews. He orders the slaughter of all the

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<v Speaker 3>firstborn male Hebrew children, and there's a shot where a

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<v Speaker 3>soldier from the Pharaoh's army comes out and wipes blood

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<v Speaker 3>off his broadsword as a mother is in tears on

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<v Speaker 3>the side of the screen. Even today, that's a horrific moment,

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<v Speaker 3>and that stayed in the movie.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes it did. And I was about to say the

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<v Speaker 2>only other thing I could think of was when Nephertieri

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<v Speaker 2>was trying to seduce Moses. That got a little steamy.

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<v Speaker 3>But I think we can trust Chuck Heston not to

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<v Speaker 3>give into that start of temptation.

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<v Speaker 2>Not at all. Lawrence of Arabia, that's a pretty benign

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<v Speaker 2>film other than maybe violence.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it's long been argued that te Lawrence himself was homosexual,

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<v Speaker 3>or at least was into s and m in some

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<v Speaker 3>way of that. In the scene with Jose Ferrer at

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<v Speaker 3>the Turkish Bay, when basically the Jose Ferrah hits on him,

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<v Speaker 3>Lawrence knees the bay in the groin. The producers were

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<v Speaker 3>cautioned not to show it actually happening, and of course

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<v Speaker 3>David Lean did it offscreen because he's a tasteful man.

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<v Speaker 3>But Peter O'Toole's daughter did tell me that they did

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<v Speaker 3>add a lot of eyeliner to Peter Row' tool in

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<v Speaker 3>certain scenes to try to suggest what his.

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<v Speaker 2>Other life was, the naughty bits, what the sensors wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>let you see in Hollywood's most famous movies. And then

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<v Speaker 2>there were times Nat segal Off I can even catch

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<v Speaker 2>now where it seems like the writers went out of

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<v Speaker 2>their way to suggest something rather sad actually or otherwise

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<v Speaker 2>that only the adults in the room would pick up upon.

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<v Speaker 3>That was the trick. Trick was to make it for

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<v Speaker 3>all audiences. You see, when the production code was initiated

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<v Speaker 3>in nineteen thirty they didn't enforce it until nineteen thirty four,

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<v Speaker 3>and so we had four years of what we now

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<v Speaker 3>called incorrectly pre code films things like Night Nurse and

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<v Speaker 3>the Story of Temple Drake and Babyface, which were really

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<v Speaker 3>scurless and wonderfully vulgar. That was cleaned up after Joe

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<v Speaker 3>Breen took over in nineteen thirty four, and the adults

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<v Speaker 3>were able to pick up a lot of things after

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<v Speaker 3>that which went over the hedge of the kid because remember,

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<v Speaker 3>people went to the audience. People went to the movies

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<v Speaker 3>as a full family.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm thinking of the naughty divorcee and go ahead,

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<v Speaker 2>put your arms around them. You know that was okay, hug,

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<v Speaker 2>Is that what you're talking about? Or what else are

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<v Speaker 2>you talking about?

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<v Speaker 3>So you couldn't show a kiss that was longer than

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<v Speaker 3>three seconds, which, by the way, is the story of

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<v Speaker 3>my life. You also couldn't show a toilet in the toilet.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, Psycho Jenny Lee is killed in the bathroom.

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<v Speaker 3>Hitchcock couldn't show a toilet in the bathroom. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know where people went. They probably staved it and

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<v Speaker 3>put it on top forty.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a lot more great bits in the naughty bits.

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<v Speaker 2>What the censors wouldn't let you see in Hollywood's most

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<v Speaker 2>famous movies. If you love this behind the scenes stuff

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<v Speaker 2>like I do. You'll love this for a summer read

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<v Speaker 2>from Nat segel Off. And we thank you for joining

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<v Speaker 2>us and for bringing us the book.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you Lee very much.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening to Later with Lee Matthews the Lee

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<v Speaker 1>Matthews Podcast, and remember to listen to The Drive Live

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<v Speaker 1>weekday afternoons from five to seven and iHeartMedia Presentation