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True Murder with your host, 33 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:37.879 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 34 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:51.719 Good Evening over two Grim Knights in Los Angeles, the 35 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:56.079 young followers of Charles Manson murdered seven people, including the 36 00:01:56.200 --> 00:02:00.920 actress Sharon Tate, then eight months pregnant. With no mercy 37 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:04.159 and seemingly no motive, the Manson family followed their leaders 38 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.719 every order. Their crimes lit a frank flame of paranoia 39 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:12.439 cross the nation, Spelling the end of the sixties. Manson 40 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:15.879 became one of history's most infamous criminals, his name forever 41 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.919 attached to an era when Charlatan's mixed with prodigies, free 42 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:23.879 love was as possible as brainwashing, and utopia or dystopia 43 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:27.520 was just an acid trip away. Twenty years ago, when 44 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:31.080 journalist Tom O'Neill was reporting a magazine piece about the murders. 45 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:34.439 He worried there was nothing new to say. Then he 46 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:37.840 unearthed shocking evidence of a cover up behind the official story, 47 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:44.479 including police carelessness, legal misconduct, and potential surveillance by intelligence agents. 48 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.400 When a tense interview with Vincent Bulogosi, prosecutor of the 49 00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:52.280 Manson family and author of Helter Skelter, turned a friendly 50 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:56.439 source into a nemesis, O'Neill knew he was on to something, 51 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:01.240 but every discovery brought more questions. O'Neill's quest for the 52 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:05.400 truth led him from reclusive celebrities to seasoned spies, from 53 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:08.680 San Francisco's Summer of Love to the shadowy sights of 54 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:13.280 the CIA's mind control experiments, on a trail rife with 55 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:17.840 shady cover ups and suspicious coincidences. The product of two 56 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:21.000 decades of reporting, hundreds of new interviews, and dozens have 57 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:24.840 never before seen documents from the LAPD, the FBI, and 58 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:28.919 the CIA, chaos mounts an argument that could be, according 59 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:32.840 to Los Angeles Deputy District Attorney Stephen k strong enough 60 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:36.639 to overturn the verdicts on the Manson murders. This is 61 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:40.400 a book that overturns our understanding of a pivotal time 62 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:44.479 in American history. The book they were featuring this evening 63 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:49.319 is Chaos Charles manson the CIA and the Secret History 64 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:52.319 of the Sixties, with my special guest, journalist and author 65 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:56.080 Tom O'Neill. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 66 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:58.199 much for a Greenness interview. Tom O'Neill. 67 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:01.439 Thanks, thanks Dan, thanks for having me. 68 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:07.120 Thank you very much. This is, as I mentioned, one incredible, 69 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:12.159 incredible investigation you've undertaken and the result is one fascinating 70 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:16.399 and incredible book. Let's get right into this. Let's get 71 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:19.480 right into this. In March twenty first, nineteen ninety nine, 72 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:25.600 tell Us you were a freelance journalist at that time. 73 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:31.920 Tell Us who called you and what they offered as 74 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:33.079 an assignment. 75 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:36.160 To you at that time. That was my old editor 76 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:39.079 from another magazine. She had moved to Premiere, which was 77 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:42.480 a film magazine, and she asked me to do a 78 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:47.560 thirtieth anniversary piece on the Mansi murders. And I wasn't 79 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:51.519 interested in doing it because never been interested in the case. 80 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:53.920 I just assumed that, you know, there was nothing new 81 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.279 to write about it, so I was pretty reluctant. But 82 00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:59.720 she persuaded me to do it. She knew I needed it, 83 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:04.160 and I thought I was accepting a three month assignment. 84 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:06.279 I didn't know it was going to take quite as 85 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:09.040 long as it did. And I'm pretty sure had I 86 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:14.439 known then what I knew now, I probably probably would 87 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:16.079 have said no, I still don't know what that was 88 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:19.920 worth twenty years of my life. M hmm. 89 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:24.199 Absolutely, say turned into an obsession. Obviously it took over 90 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:27.199 your life. That's understandable. 91 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:30.759 Well, tell us it wasn't so much to an obsession, 92 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:34.000 but it was more of a I wanted to find 93 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:37.240 the answers once I figured out things happened differently and 94 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:40.720 that people had covered stuff up and hidden things. I 95 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:42.680 guess you could say it became an obsession to get 96 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:43.120 the truth. 97 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:47.759 Sure, m you you write that one of the first 98 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:53.279 things you did was to read Helter Skelter from Vincent Bulagosi. 99 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:58.319 Tell us tell us about that? Why that was important? 100 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:01.839 Well, I mean, if I was writing about that case, 101 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.319 that was considered and probably to this day is still 102 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:10.639 considered the dependentive book on the case, and I was 103 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:13.360 reading it for the first time, and it's the page turner. 104 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:17.160 I have to give it that. But now I think 105 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:20.800 pretty differently about the book and look at it a 106 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:23.199 whole lot differently. But at the time I read it, 107 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:27.399 you know, without knowing anything really about the case, I 108 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.560 just kind of fell hook one and sinker into the 109 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:35.040 narrative he presented and believed everything he told me, and 110 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:36.560 it was a pretty compelling lead. 111 00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:45.399 What was your first step after in this investigation? You guys, 112 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.319 we write you had ninety days, three months to be 113 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:50.800 able to do this five thousand words, so that's what 114 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:52.879 you said off to do. So what was other than 115 00:06:52.959 --> 00:06:56.879 reading the Helter Skelter, the official book as far as 116 00:06:56.879 --> 00:07:00.319 you knew, at least you needed to read that. What 117 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:03.360 did you do next after reading all that? 118 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:06.800 Well, like any story, I made up a list of 119 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:11.600 potential interview subjects and I sent a list to the 120 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:14.399 magazines and say have researchers there, And I said, can 121 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:17.240 you get me phone numbers for I think I'd probably 122 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:22.279 give about twenty people who were actors and rock musicians, 123 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:25.560 and maybe a couple of writers, people that were at 124 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:29.680 us from the world of Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski 125 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.600 and the other victims. And then separately, on my own, 126 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.480 I started trying to find people who were you know, 127 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:42.199 non celebrities, but who had become important witnesses in the trial. 128 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:45.800 And at this point I still didn't suspect that anything 129 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:50.560 untoward had happened in the trial. And I also got 130 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:53.160 a phone number for Vince BULIOSI had an interview set 131 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:55.879 up with him, and he was one of the first 132 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:58.519 people I interviewed. I went to his home in Pasadena 133 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:02.399 and spent about six hours in one day just talking 134 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:05.800 with him, going out to lunch, getting a tour of 135 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:10.720 some of the locations associated with the crimes, and you know, 136 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:13.879 walking away pretty impressed because he had given me so 137 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:16.560 much time. But as I write in the book, by 138 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:19.519 the end of the interview, I realized, even though he 139 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:23.480 was so generous with his time and with his stories, 140 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:25.879 I realized he wasn't giving me anything at all new. 141 00:08:26.720 --> 00:08:29.160 He's just saying the same thing that he'd send another 142 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:33.399 interviewers in the book. So I did what we call 143 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:35.519 the hill Mary path. At the end of the interview, 144 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:39.039 I asked him if there was anything he could tell 145 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:43.679 me that he'd never shared before, something unknown about the 146 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:46.600 case that might give me a fresh angle on it. 147 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.480 And I said, if it's something that you'd rather not 148 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:51.879 be associated with you could tell me off the record, 149 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.440 and I'll say, I got to put an anonymous source, 150 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:57.360 and he thought a little bit, and then he said, 151 00:08:57.480 --> 00:08:59.559 turn it off. Turn it off with putting to my 152 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:03.600 capable And he told me something which is pretty startling 153 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:08.000 and had definitely never been reported before. And you'll find 154 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:10.120 out in the book what that was or your readers 155 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:14.159 or a listeners well, and why it was important and 156 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:18.279 also why it eventually did become on the record after 157 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:21.519 my relationship with Boliosi changed. 158 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:28.200 You say that you even in that first interview, you 159 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:31.919 knew you were onto something from his behavior and the 160 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:36.600 way he spoke about this case. When you had reviewed 161 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.039 his book itself, what was the next step in terms 162 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:47.240 of you attempting to get records? What records officially you 163 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:50.919 write about police reports? What other records were you interested in? 164 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:54.759 Well, it wasn't so much from just reading a book. 165 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:56.480 I mean, there were some things that I was hoping 166 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:00.519 to answer, plot points that he even out in the 167 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:04.480 book that seemed still to this day unexplainable about the case. 168 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:10.600 It was only after I started interviewing people besides and 169 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:13.480 and people who had never talked about the case before, 170 00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:17.240 who had been key prosecution witnesses, where they started telling 171 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:20.679 me different stories that was kind of contradictory of the 172 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.600 official narrative, and at that point some of it was 173 00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:28.840 so dramatically different than what he presented, not just in 174 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.039 his book, but even more importantly, you know, a trial 175 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:36.039 to a jury, what people's lives hung in the balance, 176 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:41.879 since there were deafence is associated with these convictions. Once 177 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:45.080 I started hearing that from more than one witness, I 178 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:47.440 had to check what they were saying because it was 179 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:49.879 thirty years later, and some of them told me that 180 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.200 they had told the police to the same information, but 181 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:55.240 they had never been asked about it a trial or 182 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:59.200 ever seen it in the public form of belieos, these 183 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:02.519 books or artic and they were wondering why. So at 184 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:04.759 that point I had to coroborate what they said, so 185 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:08.200 I started making it real on an effort to get 186 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:12.840 police finals from the LAPD shriff's files, from the Los 187 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:18.120 Angeles Sheriff's company our division, and also the District Attorney's files, 188 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:21.039 then to his own notes, and that was not easy. 189 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:23.879 It was time consuming, took a lot of work to 190 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:28.440 get access, and I guess almost all the access I 191 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:31.279 got was through backdoors, you know, not to official people 192 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.240 who were in charge of the files, but through people 193 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:36.440 who kind of let me in and said, don't tell 194 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:38.879 me when I showed you this stuff. So once I 195 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.519 started getting that and seeing that what these people had 196 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:44.440 told me was true, then I knew it was something 197 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:47.440 that was bigger than the magazine article and would take 198 00:11:47.559 --> 00:11:49.480 much more time than the three months could have been 199 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:52.840 given to me. And it took a year to I 200 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:55.639 kept reporting up for the magazine for a year, and 201 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:58.679 then the editor and sheef got fired, I think partly 202 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:01.679 because he paid me to report nothing about this for 203 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.080 a year, and the new editor and chief wanted me 204 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:08.240 to publish right away and I wouldn't, so at that 205 00:12:08.360 --> 00:12:10.639 point I got a book agent. That was in two thousand, 206 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:15.320 two thousand and one, even maybe early two thousand and one, 207 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:19.480 where I got a book agent, he reached an understanding 208 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:23.840 or I deal with the magazine where I would give 209 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:26.679 them some stuff later in exchange for being able to 210 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:30.799 walk away with my story and continue on it. But 211 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:32.600 again I still didn't think it was going to take 212 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:34.159 me as long as it took me. I thought i'd 213 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:35.840 have a book out in a couple of years, but 214 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:40.279 it takes a long long time to keep even the 215 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:42.240 information I have in the book. There's a lot of 216 00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:44.080 stuff you don't see in the book because it wasn't 217 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:48.399 enough space. But the documents and reports were the most 218 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:50.279 important thing that I was chasing. 219 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:57.759 You looked at the witnesses of her at trial, and 220 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.480 you tried to contact as many people as you possibly could. 221 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:05.759 What at what point did you look at some of 222 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:08.480 the and talk to some people that were witnesses and 223 00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:12.320 find out that there was potential witnesses that it seemed 224 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:13.679 the police had never interviewed. 225 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:17.799 Oh, I just found that out, you know, again from 226 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:21.879 talking to people and getting access to records and wondering 227 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:24.919 why this person, you know, hadn't testified the trial, or 228 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:27.799 why this person wasn't brought into the case, and then 229 00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:30.960 the official capacity and then I started figuring out that 230 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:35.840 they were they would screw up the motive that was prosecuted, 231 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:40.399 and that these people, you know, their information, their stories 232 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:42.919 came out, it would conflicts with what they were presenting 233 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:46.960 to the jury. And you know, when a prosecutor is 234 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:49.879 trying to show a jury that someone's built of something, 235 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:54.039 they only have to put on evidence that supports their argument, 236 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:57.000 but well, they don't have to put on anything that 237 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.440 contradicts that. They do have to share that with the defense. 238 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:05.919 If it's something that came through police reports, BELIOSI didn't 239 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:08.320 do that. He would held it from the defense, and 240 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:11.919 that's a violation of what's called the Brady Law or 241 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.159 anything that's as culpatoyer that could help the defense fight 242 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:20.320 their case that the prosecutor has their obligator to share it. 243 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:23.120 And when I took some of that information to the 244 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:27.320 two living defense attorneys said the others had died, they 245 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:30.279 both were shocked and said that had they had that 246 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:34.000 information then they would have actually defended the Manson family 247 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:36.360 entirely differently than they did. They never even put on 248 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:40.279 a defense. Manson wouldn't allow his attorneys and his fell 249 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:45.120 in Defenden's attorneys to put on a defense. But Rupert Scherld, 250 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.639 who was Patricia Clamwinkle's attorney, and Irvin Kinert, who was 251 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.600 Manson's attorney, both said this would have changed the entire 252 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:54.080 trial if we had had this stuff, and he obviously, 253 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.279 you know, broke the law by not sharing it with us. 254 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:05.200 That's of a startling claim that you're making now that 255 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.039 how did you get to the point where you found 256 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:12.799 out this information and what information did you what information 257 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:16.320 specifically did you find out that you believe that you 258 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:19.960 believe that you proved that Bullegosi held back because of 259 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:21.279 this official in. 260 00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:24.159 The particular information. Yeah, the official information I'm talking about 261 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:28.240 right now is about Terry Milcher, who was a pivotal 262 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:35.120 person for the prosecution case. Terry was the reason that 263 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:39.879 Manson in the official version, shows the house to target 264 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.879 its inhabitants who were allegedly strangers to him for death. 265 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:51.399 Terry Meltzer was a record producer of Buffalo Springfield, Paul 266 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:54.440 Overra Narraiders. He had to deal with Apple to work 267 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:57.159 with the Beatles, and he was door staged on was 268 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:00.559 you know one time in the fifties mediate early sixty 269 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:04.559 the number one female movie store in the world. So 270 00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:08.120 Terry was kind of a golden child. Went through Dennis Wilson. 271 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:12.840 He had met Manson and in the official version that 272 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:17.240 Terry testified to a trial and Evince Pileosi presented to 273 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.799 the jury and then wrote about in his book. But 274 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:23.159 Terry had this kind of leeting interaction with Manson. He 275 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.919 had met him three times at most, all long before 276 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:30.200 the murders. The last time he met him was when 277 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:32.480 he went to the Spawn Ranch in May of nineteen 278 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:36.080 sixty nine to kind of informally audition the family for 279 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:40.759 a possible recording contract, and in the official version, Terry 280 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.519 wasn't impressed with them, but politely told Manson that he 281 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:46.960 didn't think, you know, they should be working together, but 282 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:49.399 he had a friend who might want to be doing 283 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:53.480 a documentary about the group that would include recording them. 284 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:56.960 And that was that everything ended well and nicely in 285 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.639 May of sixty nine, and Melter never saw again. But 286 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.720 what I found from uh in this person the well 287 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:07.960 first and this attorneys files, and then in the sheriff's 288 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:11.960 files were three or four different accounts by two of 289 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:15.839 the main prosecution witnesses, and Thens relied on Denny DeCarlo, 290 00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:19.720 who was a biker who was an associate the family, 291 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.920 and Paul Watkins, who was kind of a hardcore member. 292 00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:28.279 Both told the police that Ends told Miss Foliosi in 293 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:30.880 the case of the Carlo, that Melcher had been to 294 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:34.079 the ranch to meet with Manson after the murders and 295 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:38.200 early September and to Spawn Ranch and then the second 296 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:41.359 time out at the Barker and Myers Ranches in Death Valley, 297 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.359 which is a six hour trip by cars, pretty rough 298 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:46.200 when you get into the desert to try to get 299 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.599 to where their hideout was. So that showed that Melcher 300 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:54.319 had this post murders relationship with them. In my admitted 301 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.400 the book. I don't know what that means, you know 302 00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:58.880 why that had to be covered up, but it does 303 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.680 show that it was very different than what was presented. 304 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.839 And Melcher was the linkage to the house. Melcher had 305 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:10.680 lived in the house Shore and was killed in prior 306 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:14.279 to her and left in January of sixty nine, and 307 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:18.079 then Sharon and Roman moved in. And without Terry's involvement 308 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:21.960 in the case and testimony, Manson probably never would have 309 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:25.880 been convicted because he had given the official narrative didn't 310 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:27.880 go to the house that night with the killers. He 311 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:31.519 sent them there and with orders to kill everybody who 312 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:35.559 lived in the former home of Carrie. So without Terry 313 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:38.200 testifying that that, they probably wouldn't have gotten their conviction 314 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:43.720 of Bensenberg conspiracy. So Stephen Kay, who was Vince's co 315 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.160 prosecutor in the case, said, when I showed him these 316 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:49.359 same documents, he said, I don't know what to think 317 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:53.039 about this entire case anymore. Because the Vince lied about this, 318 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:56.400 well what else would did he lie about? So those 319 00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:58.640 are the questions that come up early in the book 320 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:02.720 that kind of sent me longer while goose Chase trying 321 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:05.000 to get the answers to those questions, and that leads 322 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:08.960 to a lot of other stuff. And as listeners will 323 00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.359 see if they buy the book, a lot of interesting 324 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:16.079 stuff came up in my investigation, some stuff pretty compelling, 325 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:19.400 other stuff that ends, and I just present everything I 326 00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:21.440 have to the reader, and I want the reader to 327 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:23.720 decide in the end what they think happened and why. 328 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:27.160 But I think one thing everyone agrees on after reading 329 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:29.960 the book is it happened these clients happened much differently 330 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:32.759 than we were told and for different reasons. 331 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:40.440 Absolutely, you talk about the official narrative, and your book 332 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:46.279 just opposes that, basically just examines it and dispels that. 333 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:53.319 What exactly was the narrative about involving Terry Melcher because 334 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:58.920 it was Manson and his followers targeting Terry Melcher or 335 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:01.319 was it something to do with the house. Why what 336 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:04.440 was the official story that you had to deal with that? 337 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:09.799 Bulagosi put forth involving Terry Terry Well. 338 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:14.119 The official story that Buliosi told was that Manson moved, 339 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.400 that Meltzer didn't live there anymore, but he had been 340 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:19.400 up there looking for him in March and was told 341 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:21.559 that he had moved down to Malibu. He didn't. He 342 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:26.880 wasn't told where exactly in Malibu. But also Buliosi writes 343 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.920 in the book and had a couple of witnesses testify, 344 00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:36.880 Manson told Terry Mountster's good friend Greg Jacobson, another key 345 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.119 prosecution witness who knew who was much more of all 346 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:44.640 with the Manson family than Terry was, Manson told him 347 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:47.680 that he had stolen Terry's or either stolen or move 348 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:51.599 There's a couple of different versions Terry's telescope from his 349 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:53.759 Malibu house. He either moved it on the deck to 350 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.880 another spot or stolen it. But that was to let 351 00:20:57.319 --> 00:20:59.960 Terry knew before the murders that Manson knew where he was, 352 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:04.319 where he lived, which was the house anymore. So the 353 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.680 official version they were sent there to and kill Fear 354 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.319 and Terry by killing all the people in his form home. 355 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:15.440 I don't believe that's why they went there. I think 356 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:18.559 the answer size and what was the real relationship and 357 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:20.880 what was really going on between Terry and some other 358 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:24.200 people in Hollywood and Manson. Unfortunately, you'll see I can 359 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:28.440 only present hypothetical possibilities because I could never find out. 360 00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:31.000 I got like two thirds of the story without the 361 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:32.200 last third of the answer. 362 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:40.200 You talk about Dennis Wilson and his involvement in this 363 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:46.039 as well, and that the DeCarlo, one of these incredible 364 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:51.880 witness says that he witnessed Melcher coming to Manson and 365 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:55.000 the family after the murders and asking for his forgiveness, 366 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.559 going down on his knees and asking for forgiveness. Why 367 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:02.119 is this story credible to you? And what does it 368 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:07.200 tell you about the reasons why that the officials would 369 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:09.519 want this not to come out? What would be the 370 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:11.279 possible motivation for this? 371 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:15.880 Yeah, that was actually Paul Watkins who told the sheriff's 372 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:19.359 deputy that. And I found the sheriff's deputy's report of 373 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:24.839 that interview and I put exactly what the detective reported 374 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:28.559 that Paul Watkins told him was that Melcher was at 375 00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:31.839 the Spawn Ranch the first week of September and he 376 00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:35.160 fell to his knees. He was high on acid and 377 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:39.359 he was begging Charlie's forgiveness. The report doesn't say forgiveness 378 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:41.720 for what, It's just, you know, the notes of the 379 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.880 interview begging history giveness, and Charlie answered, all those pigs 380 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:49.799 had to die. Those pigs had to die. So, you know, 381 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:51.720 as a journalist, you see that and you're like, the 382 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:53.200 first time I saw it, I thought it had to 383 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:55.599 be wrong. It wasn't until I found out that the 384 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.680 Carlo had told about seeing Melcher at the ranch that 385 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:04.759 same week, actually those same days, and then also reported 386 00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:06.920 about seeing in that death valley that I went back 387 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.720 to this report. So I couldn't interview Paul Watkins to 388 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:13.759 find out, you know, exactly what he saw and heard, 389 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:17.039 because he was already dead for a long time. Couldn't 390 00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:20.519 interview the deputy who took the report because it wasn't signed. 391 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:24.119 I went to Meltzer, and Meltzer denied that it happened, 392 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:26.839 deny that everything I found about him having a post 393 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:33.039 murders relationship with Manson happened. BULIOSI denied everything too, So 394 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:37.000 all I could do was, you know, suppose what he 395 00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.680 might have been asking forgiveness for. But if you see 396 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:42.720 in the book, I never answer what I think that 397 00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:46.640 question is what he was asking forgiveness for, because I 398 00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:49.160 don't know, and I'd rather just show what I have 399 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:56.440 that contradicts the official version. And I suggest kind of pectually, 400 00:23:57.759 --> 00:23:59.880 what are some of the things that that, you know, 401 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.480