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Speaker 1: Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm
Blake Smith.
Speaker 4: And I'm Karen Stolsner.
Speaker 1: Well, I can hardly believe it, but here we are
at the end of season four. Of course, it is
a little ridiculous given that the first season was more
than a decade long, but here we are and doing
our seasons in October just makes good sense to me,
especially here in America, where increasingly I'm hearing this whole
month called the spook key season. But before we break
out our pumpkins and candy, we're gonna end the season
with some laughs as we welcome Brian Mallow, the science comedian.
As you'll hear in the interview, Brian's been plugged into
the science community for a long time and carved out
a pretty interesting space for himself. There's no two drinking minimum,
so let's just hop into the Monstertle.
Speaker 4: Welcome to another episode of Monster Talk, and today we're
talking with Brian Mallow. So he is a skeptical comedian
science comedian, and I think, Brian, maybe you can tell
us a little bit more about yourself.
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny.
Speaker 3: I guess the reason this has come up again, You
said skeptical scientists because back in do you remember what
year that was?
Speaker 2: That T shirt that I just posted from the first
skeptical conference.
Speaker 3: And your name and my name and Brian Dunning and
Kecky Scot and Eugenie were and then Eugenie waded in
and said that was the first kept I didn't really
remember that, and my point, I posted it to Brian
because we know each other now, but I don't remember
meeting him back then at all, and he doesn't remember
it either.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there have a few people on there. I still
don't know who they are, but yeah, that was a
while ago. And that's why I need you to introduce
yourself because I kind of framed you with skeptical comedian,
so you're saying that's not exactly correct, or oh.
Speaker 3: Science comedian and that's my handle everywhere and sciencecomedian dot com.
Speaker 2: And you know, the funny thing is, I guess I'll
tell you.
Speaker 3: I didn't set out obviously, Who's hardly anyone starts out
thinking they're going to be a comedian. I was a
science fan first. I grew up, you know, and I
might even say science fiction. When I try to back
engineer my path, I usually credit science fiction, and specifically
I liked the hard science fiction Isaac Asimov, Arthur C.
Speaker 2: Clark, Larry Niven and those were the way.
Speaker 3: And then in particular Clark and Asimov, you start reading
their science fiction and then you discover, oh they wrote nonfiction,
They wrote science books. Asimov wrote on every topic, but
he wrote on every kind of science, and he to
this day, I think he was the best science explainer.
Love Carl Sagan too, but I think Asimov just there
was something incredibly And when we talk about science communication,
I liked I give science communication talks and I do
like to mention how wow, how linear his thinking must
have been, and how he could take you to a
complex place and not lose you. And he wrote with
personality and even humor. And when I think back on
my influences as much as George Carlin and Steve Martin
and Richard Pryor were comedic influences, and Monty Python and
the original Sunday Night Live, Isaac Asimov, it was like
I was a huge consumer of science fiction and his
science writing. My little science nerd friends, we were mostly
into physics, and we learned a lot outside of school
from Asimov and Clark. So I was a big science
nerd first. But my good friend who was another like
astrophysics nerd, we wrote songs together, my lyrics to his music,
and we kind of wanted to be rock stars and scientists,
and I guess we became neither.
Speaker 2: But yeah, one of my little jokes I love.
Speaker 3: Saying, it's like if you say, you got to be
careful telling people you wanted to be a rock star,
because they tend to ask, well, what instrument do you play?
Speaker 2: And then you got to go I didn't say I
wanted to be a musician. Yeah, yeah, they said I
wanted to be a rock star.
Speaker 3: But he was an amazing keyboard player and composer, my
partner who.
Speaker 2: Passed away sadly, but we so.
Speaker 3: I from the beginning, I had an interest in art
and science and I did well, Like on the SATs
and everything. I always did well on both. I always
identified as a science nerd, but I was always a
good writer as well.
Speaker 2: And I loved music.
Speaker 3: And what happened is I under the influence of a
Jewish mother growing up in Houston, Texas, born in Chicago,
raised in Texas. I was I went pre med at
the University of Texas in Austin, but that was not
my favorite science and by the end of it, and
especially if your heart's not in It turns out organic
chemistry is really hard.
Speaker 2: But after I.
Speaker 3: Graduated, I didn't want to go to medical school, and
then I ended up going to graduate school and TV production,
so I picked up video skills. And while I was
doing graduate school, also at ut Austin, I saw sign
for the Funniest Person in Austin contest, and at that
point I had enjoyed going to comedy clubs and I
was kind of interested in trying and I had a
couple joke ideas, and I did the contest and I
got hooked. I did okay in the contest, like you
know what, I made it to the I did really
well in a night of the prelimbs, and then in
the finals I choked. So I learned an important lesson,
which is, and it's applicable to science communication or communication
in general, which is, it was only my third time
on stage when I kind of slayed and.
Speaker 2: Made it to the finals.
Speaker 3: And then I tried to recreate the magic that I
tried to say the exact same words a couple weeks later,
and it didn't play funny at all, And so.
Speaker 2: I was saying the same words and yet I wasn't
getting the same response.
Speaker 3: So it wasn't just the words, it was the nonverbal
stuff was much more important. I was funny that first
time I was on, and that other time I was
trying to repeat the magic. I was turned inward and
maybe thinking about the words too much.
Speaker 1: Organic comedy is less formulaic than organic chemistry?
Speaker 4: Or does it depend on the audience that you have too?
Speaker 1: Will you do?
Speaker 4: You think you delivering in the same way, but it
was a different vibe with the audience and it just
didn't mish.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know what, Comics often like to blame
the audience when they don't do well.
Speaker 2: And that's a trap.
Speaker 3: It's like, the thing is, it's true, some audiences aren't
that great. Sometimes you know that you did your best,
but for some reason you didn't connect.
Speaker 2: But I know that I didn't do my best that day.
I know that I wasn't on.
Speaker 3: There was that I said the same words, but I
wasn't being as funny, and so much of the humor.
It's not just the words, it's it's nonverbal stuff. And
that when you're communicating to an audience. And I like
to say that, you know, you got to get away
from memorization a science speaker that sounds scripted and overly memorized.
It doesn't play that well, and it's like you're drawing
from stuff you know, so you know, don't be reading
your script off your own slides. Don't be turned inward
trying to remember.
Speaker 2: And that's the thing. It's really about being present.
Speaker 3: And when you're trying too hard to remember your script,
you're not here in the room with the audience. You're
turned inward trying to remember your script. That's not a
good way to bond and connect.
Speaker 4: Well, it sounds like you sorry.
Speaker 1: Oh, just because I Comedy is a little bit like love.
Though it works, but if you try to deconstruct it
too much, maybe not so much.
Speaker 4: I have think that, Yeah, there's a fans.
Speaker 3: Line about dissecting a joke or comedy is like dissecting
a frog that then somebody dies in the.
Speaker 2: Process at the point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but sometimes you have to, and especially if you're
a nerdy comedian, you're destined to be over analyzing your stuff.
Speaker 2: The science comedy the comedy of science.
Speaker 3: So but I guess a more succinct answer would be
that I was a science geek first, and when I
got into stand up comedy, it was just natural that
my comedy was geeky, and that it was funny to
me to make science references in weird ways, like if
I noticed my mom would lose weight, my dad would
gain weight, and vice versa. Its like the conservation of
mass within our family, and you never actually lose weight,
you just give it to somebody else.
Speaker 2: Fat can be created or destroyed, stuff like that.
Speaker 4: So I have thought that myself, that's funny to do.
Speaker 2: That's what passes is for humor to me.
Speaker 3: So you know, we discussed some ideas before and before
you can even ask me about what drew me, we
were talking about combining science and comedy. You know, the
thing is, it wasn't calculated at all.
Speaker 2: It was just.
Speaker 3: I'm science geeky, so I'm now When I started doing
stand up comedy, it was pretty natural for it to
be geeky, and ultimately, you know, some of it is
just silly. I wouldn't say it's communicating science.
Speaker 2: It might be.
Speaker 3: It might have an effect on making you laugh at
a very science y, nerdy topic, but not every joke
is necessarily educational.
Speaker 2: They're just silly some of them.
Speaker 3: I used to be an astronomer, but I get stuck
in the day shift, which sucks, although.
Speaker 2: A joke like that can open that.
Speaker 3: I often use jokes to lead into a topic or
a short essay like radio pieces I've done. Because the
truth is, to some audiences, I might just say that
as a one liner, but to other audiences, you got
to you it's best if you come in and say,
I know, solar astronomers work on the day shift radio astronomers,
and then the truth is yeah, because you know, because
with a nerdy audience, they're gonna bust you on something
like that.
Speaker 1: Well actually, yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, but you know, I wouldn't say it's inappropriate
because I'm nerdy that way, and it's like I deserve that.
You know, if you're gonna be a nerdy comedian, you
want a nerdy audience, and you're gonna expect them to
overanalyze and be nerdy with your jokes. And and also anyway,
just all astronomers pretty much work on the day shift. Now,
professional astronomers, you can operate a telescope.
Speaker 2: Anywhere in the world.
Speaker 3: And then have it do it automatically, and then you
get up and work on the day shift and corunt
your data. So anyway, that's an interesting way when like
how a joke can lead into a serious discussion, which
is a useful method, like a way to use humor
to get into things.
Speaker 1: Well, so, in some sense I'm reminded of I used
to have a dog until very recently, and we used
to have to get for pills and they would give
you these little sweet rapper things you could buy and
put the pill inside, and of course she would gobble
them up. And so really that that comedy has been
used to encapsulate more complicated content forever. So, whether that's
Richard pryor doing really biting social satire or commentary but
wrapping it in a funny story, or whether it's talking
about astronomy, it's all still you get the joke, and
then later you wait, you know, maybe there's one there.
So I know absolutely.
Speaker 2: I thought you were going somewhere else with your dog story.
I know too, I.
Speaker 3: Have a cat and it's impossible to get and I
don't understand why the pills don't already taste good.
Speaker 2: Isn't it possible to make the cat medicine.
Speaker 3: Tuna flavored and not make us try to force it
into you know, micking into something or put it in
one of those.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've seen I've seen things like poultry flavored toothpaste
for cats, and so you'd think, okay, surely you could
do that as well.
Speaker 3: But is my cats freshing his teeth every day?
Speaker 2: We're a little behind on that.
Speaker 4: It's something I've seen, it's not something I've purchased or no.
Speaker 1: Anything about.
Speaker 3: A terrible job of describing who I am succinctly, because uh.
Speaker 4: You've answered the first five questions.
Speaker 2: I think I'm a comedian.
Speaker 3: But when I became you know what, I became a
comedian first, and it evolved into science commed when I
came up with the phrase science comedian.
Speaker 1: Still get psychon in there, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. But I wasn't setting out
to do it. It was a wreck.
Speaker 3: It was like, that describes what I'm already doing, science comedy.
Speaker 2: And I looked science Comedian dot com was available, and.
Speaker 1: This is like, oh nice, yeah.
Speaker 3: Years ago, So I thought two words spelled correctly in
the dot com like seventeen years ago or something. It's like, wow, okay,
so science comedian. And then that sort of did crystallize things.
It's like if I just cut away some of this
other stuff, but almost anything could fit. I have a
very broad interpretation of what science comedy is, and so
it doesn't all have to be educational.
Speaker 2: It's just a certain nerdy way of you can address
any topic.
Speaker 3: And then then ultimately that led to me doing some
science communication stuff. I made science videos for Time Magazine,
I did uh, I did pieces for Neil Tyson Star
talk radio audio bits, and then I started giving science
communication training and U and along here, so I brought
up the video I broughts like everything that I did.
Did you ever see this commencement speech by Steve Jobs.
It's like a twenty minute YouTube video. It's from Stanford
and he says like, I'm gonna tell you three stories
and one of them has to do with and I'm
not mystical at all and it but.
Speaker 2: It's funny how this works.
Speaker 3: He says something about like looking back at your life
and connecting the dots. You know, I learned science just
because I loved science, no other reason. I was always
pursuing what I loved. But then I didn't take a
pursue a career in that, and then you know, was
pre mad, didn't want to follow through on that went
to graduate school, learned video skills, but I got distracted
by stand up comedy.
Speaker 2: So I learned each of these things and put them aside,
and now my career uses all of them.
Speaker 3: I use my sense of humor, I use my science knowledge,
I use the video skills. Even before things got so
virtual because of COVID and kind of funny, there was
always the bit of the teacher in me, and I
do some science communication talks and so it's kind of
funny how you couldn't have planned it this way, But
here I am. I spend more time in the science
world at science conferences and skeptics conferences than I do
in the comedy club world.
Speaker 2: Even it's like, how did that.
Speaker 3: I chose not to become a scientist and I ended
up squarely in the science world with a lot of
scientist friends.
Speaker 2: Yeah that's neat, very very niche area.
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's really lack. Your career has really molded
itself around you and your interests, and you're very lucky
to be doing what you love and it's so good
at Yeah, And.
Speaker 3: So what I really love is I love performing. I
love giving science communication talks.
Speaker 2: But the third piece.
Speaker 3: Of my career nowadays I love interviewing scientists and then
hopefully spun or like science cafe. I worked at a
science museum for a few years in Raleigh, and one
of the things I did was host a science cafe
for a few years weekly and it.
Speaker 2: Was so much fun.
Speaker 3: And I love that chance to be spontaneous, have an
interview with an expert in anything, learn about it, and maybe.
Speaker 2: You know what.
Speaker 3: When I'm a I realized that when I'm a comedian,
obviously being funny is the first priority. But when I'm
interviewing someone, I realize these are my priorities. Clarity, I
want to make sure I understand and that non scientists understand. Clarity,
and then enthusiasm. I bring a lot of enthusiasm to
most science topics. And then third would be humor. Inevitably,
hopefully I'm gonna be funny, but every conversation doesn't have.
Speaker 2: To be funny.
Speaker 3: You could be talking about a health issue that's not
particularly funny.
Speaker 2: But clarity, enthusiasm, and then so what is.
Speaker 1: I know this is one of those deconstructing things we
talked about, the dangerous conversation. But what does your creative
process look like when you're doing when you're building up
your material, do you start from a premise or do
you have a joke and try to fit the science
into it? So, how does that or is it just random?
How did that work out? Or should it say stochastic? Whatever?
How does that go?
Speaker 3: You know, this might not be a very satisfying answer,
but it's a little of everything. It's anyway, And you know,
comedians have it's kind of classic that we always used
to carry around notebooks. Now we all have, you know,
digital devices for our note taking, whether it's typing or
audio or voice to text. But I do a little
of all of that. Say I'm reading about some science stuff.
My mind is always there's always in the background a
process going on, even if it's not in the forefront,
there's always a process going on that's looking for. I
always like the phrase sense of humor in that way
that like I have a sense for when humorous potential
is about, you know, and there's something that picks up
on it, and you know, it's pretty fascinating sometimes because
I'll be in a group of people and suddenly, you know,
someone says something and I something pops into my head
that I know would be hilarious to say, and when
I say it, everybody laughs in a way that shows
they were like, to me, this was the most.
Speaker 2: Obvious next thing to say, and yet.
Speaker 3: Everybody laughed out of surprise. No one else saw it coming.
And it's just so weird. In my mind, that was
the obvious thing to say next, but it took everyone
else by surprise.
Speaker 2: It's fascinating.
Speaker 3: Sometimes you need like a substrate, like you're looking, you're
watching the news, or you're reading news and maybe science news,
and you get an idea. Other times, maybe you just
sit and it's so hard to sit at a blank
you know, face the blank page, try to put any
words on it, and you can't just spit out a joke.
What often I'll do is like get on a top
and let's say cloning or something, and somehow just try
to get a stream of consciousness going, just.
Speaker 2: Get some ideas out.
Speaker 3: They're not necessarily funny yet, or maybe there's a little
something that feels a little funny, but just start writing
on a topic and inevitably you'll hit something funny. And
sometimes you might write a few pages and you got
this one little nugget and all the rest gets thrown away.
It's interesting thinking. But it's not a joke. I mean,
depending what you're after, a humorous essay might be a
little different.
Speaker 2: But sometimes you have to do and it's like mining
for gold.
Speaker 1: You have to do it, isn't it. I mean, yeah,
all these different variations and you have to like only survive, right.
So yeah, but.
Speaker 3: If I talk long enough on us and the thing
is is to get yourself to sort of un self
consciously getting the words to flow on a topic and
be into it, and then inevitably something funny comes out
and it's yeah. And then the other thing is just
spontaneous situation with people. So often it's in response to
something someone said.
Speaker 2: And I think the stage.
Speaker 3: Is this crucible where everyone's looking at you, and if
you do bring up something that is unprepared, there's pressure.
Everyone's looking at you and there's an expectation, and you
better come up with something funny. Similarly, in a social situation,
you just kind of want to. It's like, hey, you know,
like if the if the chance arises, it's fun to
make other people laugh and to say something clever or
put it takes.
Speaker 1: There's a certain degree of fearlessness with getting on the
stage and doing like my house. I make jokes all
the time, but you.
Speaker 4: Know, a lot of them at you, not with you.
Speaker 1: But I mean it's it doesn't matter. It's that volume
of the material and how loud I am. But like
I mean, if you if you do a lot, people
will tend to remember the funny ones and kind of
forget the bad ones.
Speaker 2: Right, it tends how bad they are. It does it?
Speaker 1: Does it? Does it? Does it? Does it? Really really
really does well?
Speaker 4: Brian, Let's talk about some of the challenges that you
might have encountered when doing science comedy. Do you often
come across common misconceptions from your audience or within the
science or comedy worlds that can kind of throw you
off track or difficult things to to have to deal
with and contend with with an audience.
Speaker 3: You know, I do face different kinds of audience situations
like I've I could face a comedy club audience. Ideally
they came to see me, so they came for science humor, so.
Speaker 2: They know what they're getting into.
Speaker 3: When you're at a conference of physicists in a couple
of weeks, I'll be in Santa Cruz for like the
West Coast Division of the American Physical society that's APS
is a big physics organization, but it's just like a.
Speaker 1: Way not us group.
Speaker 3: So I actually, you know, that's the funny thing. I
think scientists get a bad rap. I mean, obviously some
stereotypes have a little bit of truth to them, but
scientists are pretty amazing. And I think scientists tend and
I'm not a scientist, so I can say this about them,
that that you know, they tend to know the liberal
arts and history and politics and things better then liberal
arts people tend to know sciences. If I had to
make a generalization, which I don't have to, but if
I'm going to, you.
Speaker 2: Know what I mean like that that they are actually
a lot of.
Speaker 3: Scien anchists are more well rounded than the stereotype.
Speaker 1: What happened?
Speaker 2: But and I think physicists are pretty fun. I don't.
Speaker 3: I've been asked many times if I you know physicists, chemists,
medical researchers.
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, do do you you know who's who's
the best audience? I don't know that I have much
of an answer to that.
Speaker 4: Linguists right linguists, And I would enjoy linguists just because
like you, I really enjoy wordplay.
Speaker 2: And puns, and I've always had a lot in my act.
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure and enjoys puns as much as
she did before two thousand and nine.
Speaker 4: I make a lot myself, but I'm just overshadowed and
somewhat deterred by my father and his punning skills on
the he was he was well. But yeah, I think,
I mean do it sounds to me from what you're
saying that I don't always like the terms hard science
and soft science. But it sounds like you do party
more with the heart of sciences rather than humanities and
social sciences, you know.
Speaker 3: And I would credit that again with When I was
growing up, science fiction was mostly and the science fiction
that I was gravitating towards, like Larry Niven. He wrote
about astrophysics all the time. We learned about black holes
and neutron stars and relativistic effects and stuff like that,
so so much science. Today, I think more science fiction
is biotech and stuff. So I like all the sciences,
but and I like psychology and social sciences too.
Speaker 2: I just think I'm.
Speaker 3: More I'm most knowledgeable in physics and astronomy, so I
have a foundation there. I'm not a scientist but I've
had decades to get a basic understanding of physics and astronomy.
Speaker 4: You must know a loss.
Speaker 1: You can juggle and write to cycle the complete physics package.
Speaker 3: See the funny thing is like at the museum I
worked at at the North in Raleigh, the North Carolina
Museum of Natural Sciences, the head of the biodiversity lab,
Roland Case, Doctor Roland Case. He's a he's a mammalogist
and an ecologist.
Speaker 2: And he not only does he ride.
Speaker 3: A unicycle, as do both his sons, of course by now,
he does off road unicycling. He does unicycling on paths
that would be difficult to hike. Like you, how do
you even do that? Like?
Speaker 4: Yeah, scientists.
Speaker 1: Have to go to the.
Speaker 2: Strike. I think that there's video of him.
Speaker 3: It's Roland Cay's in Raleigh at the North Carolina Museum
of Natural and he's a great scientist and he's uh,
he knows more about Kinka Jews than anyone else.
Speaker 2: I think he had a Kinkajew license plate. This is
becoming the Rolan Kay's hour.
Speaker 1: No, I don't know what that is. What is it?
Kink at you?
Speaker 2: It's a weird little mammal.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it does sound like a pikachuo, so it
could be some sort of pokemon all right, but no, it's.
Speaker 2: An actual mammal humor. I mean, I don't have.
Speaker 3: A lot of I mean, it seems like I should
have special knowledge in this area. But you know, humor
is useful social lubrication and as you mentioned, like even
just straight comedians like like Richard Pryor and George Carlin
and Bill Hicks, Aaron.
Speaker 1: And uh, what you're reading for? Not but what it
was I reading for? I love that joke so hard.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's so funny.
Speaker 3: People in Tennessee is in most parts of the trouble world,
people are yelling revolution, revolution, and television and Tennessee they're
going evolution.
Speaker 1: If we WoT well you've brought you've sort of walked
into the actual question that I had, which was, what
is the sort of the role that comedy can play
in psychico, in science communication, especially in terms of combating
misinformation or misunderstandings about science. And this is this is
ideal because I know, uh, I live in the South
and Mike County, they they had those stickers in the
book saying evolutions to theory not a fact, and we
had to fight so hard to get those out of there.
So Jenny Scott, right, you know that that was part
of what she was working to help us clean up
around here. And uh, it's it's there's no there's it's
a battleground, but there's no victory. You have to just
keep fighting forever and there's more of a chore. But
but what what role do you yeah, what do you
where do you find comedy helpful here?
Speaker 2: You know what?
Speaker 3: It might even be a more interesting topic that humor
has played a role in the spreading of misinformation, because
you think about these last couple of these last few
years and all the comedian podcasters who have been a
source of very bad science misinformation, and their good.
Speaker 2: Naturedness and their senses of humor helped make everyone.
Speaker 3: You know, you can really sell someone on an idea
by making them laugh and they don't and it's like
sort of they can suspend critical thinking because you're just
like it's so funny, you go, yeah, I'm even thinking.
Speaker 2: There's a moment.
Speaker 3: There's this clip I've seen of Joe Rogan talking to
Mel Gibson and they mentioned primate change. Oh yeah, mel
Gibson says something about how you know when ice melts
in a glass, the water level doesn't rise, it stays
the same, And so he says this and they both
get sort of arrogant, like they both are like like,
isn't it pathetic that they it's like a glass of
water when the ice melts.
Speaker 2: They're just like they're like, he's so sensitis.
Speaker 3: It's like, isn't it It's kind of being funny and
it's mocking crazy liberal uh uh a lot. You know
climate alarmists who think that when the ice melts that
the glass and it's like they have they never noticed
that the water level doesn't go up, and so they're like,
in a way, they're mocking and anyone would go yeah,
until someone comes along like John Stewart and others did
and said, it's not the ice in the water that
we're concerned about.
Speaker 2: It's the ice on the.
Speaker 3: Land that melts and adds to the water and that
does raise the level.
Speaker 1: Of your glass. Is a continent, Yeah, yeah, there's a right,
But I just think that like when.
Speaker 3: A comedian or like actor and like they're like it's
like you can mock and use humor to get these
points across and it can kind of short circuit someone's
critical thinking.
Speaker 2: Because because it sells it, you know what I care about.
Speaker 3: It's like, even though they're jokes, I basically I care about.
I don't want to communicate bad science, even in just
straight comedy. And I don't like when there's a false
premise and there's a joke. It's okay if you laugh
at this. Millions of people did. Many comedians wrote it.
When the stealth bombers were designed, many comedians wrote this
joke where they go, the stealth bombers invisible, Why don't
we just say we made a lot of them.
Speaker 2: And it's very funny and everyone laughs.
Speaker 3: I never laughed because it's like, because I'm because the
nerd of me goes, it's not invisible, it's invisible to radar.
Speaker 1: Yes, the bombers.
Speaker 2: There's no yeah that far didn't watch.
Speaker 1: It's just a.
Speaker 3: Part where it's like, no, it's like, there's no joke there.
There's because the premise is so far from reality that
that's not funny. But I mean, most people laughed at that,
and maybe they wouldn't even think to the next step
because haha, that's funny and yeah, yeah, yeah, so but okay,
So I do think interestingly humor has helped sell a
lot of misinformation, but.
Speaker 2: So it can be.
Speaker 3: Used for good or evil, And when used for good,
I think the thing is, you know, it tends to
make you. Not all comedians are likable. Some comedians have
that they're funny, but there's an angry vibe.
Speaker 2: You go, I don't think i'd like him off stage?
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah, but but he's very I mean, Lewis
Black seems so personable.
Speaker 1: I just don't know.
Speaker 3: Now I met him, he does seem very Yeah, I'm
sure you know what I mean, like like.
Speaker 2: Like Bill Hicks or Sam Kinnison or something.
Speaker 3: You know, like there's some comics that they're hilarious but
they kind of see my gasholes, but they're very funny. Yeah,
but you probably yeah, And then there are other people
that you like off stage and then well they're not
as you like them more off stage.
Speaker 1: But anyway, but that also speaks to the whole problem.
You know, we have this cultural thing right now where
everybody wants to find a thing that's bad about a
person and cancel that person. And I get it, I
believe me, I get it. But sometimes people make amazing
stuff or important findings or you know, and that cancelation
wants to cancel the entire spectrum of everything they've done,
everything they've been. We just want to complete erasure, which
is really inappropriate because people don't like complexity. Oh my gosh,
I have to think carefully about this thing. The thing
they say is true, but I don't like the person.
That's so hard. I don't have time for this kind
of bad feeling, you know. So, you know the world
is very complex and a lot of the problems we
have are from this complete aversion to complexity. And it's
like simplifying things can be fun, but it never leaves
to deeper insights ever, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that bothers me a lot of there are there
are issues that there's a lot of nuance, not everything
is so black and white, and that it's like everyone
doesn't have to there aren't just two sides to every
single thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, play some dungeons and dragons.
Speaker 2: Some things have twenty signs, right exactly.
Speaker 4: You certainly I think showing us that there's endless fodder
for comedy in everything that's out there, you know, whether
it's politics or science, just whatever's happening around us.
Speaker 5: In the news.
Speaker 4: But I wanted to ask you, Brian, about some of
your performances. You have done tons of performances, and I
wonder if there's ever been a time where a joke
has led to a surprising reaction, or where science and
humor has really resonated unexpectedly with an audience or someone
in particular.
Speaker 2: I've had a lot of interesting experience.
Speaker 3: One thing that it doesn't quite fit the second half
of that, but I was involved in this Starmas festival
like Star and Music put together, okay, and it's the
brainchild of Queen guitarist and astrophysicist Brian May, Brian May
and his friend an astrophysicist, Garrick Israelian, And it's a
festival of music and science, art and science. And I've
participated a couple times. Once was in it was the
fiftieth Annivert. It was two thousand and nine, the fiftieth
anniversary of the Apollo eleven moon landings, and it was
in Zurich and a bunch of Apollo people were there
and I was on stage and in the front row
right in front of me were Peter Gabriel and Brian
Eno sitting next to each other. Wow, And down the
row was buzz Aldrin and I forget who was in
the front row, but other like Brian may might have
been a couple of rows back and and other people
other Apollo uh characters, astronauts and mission control people and uh,
it was just phenomen and all just all the Nobel
Prize winners.
Speaker 2: But just like that's an interesting position again.
Speaker 3: I was a science nerd, kind of wanted to be
a rock star, chose not to go into science, became
a comedian, and I end up in some weird places sometimes.
One time, you know, uh, you know the SAIFU conference.
That's uh, it's an annual event sponsored by Google and
O'Reilly Media and it's held I'm.
Speaker 1: A computer nerd.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah, and it's held at the Google Plex.
And one time I was in sort of an unconference
and I did a session where I performed and I
brought up Pluto being demoted with This was about two
thousand and eight and it only happened in the past
couple of years.
Speaker 2: And you know, here's here's a little.
Speaker 3: Funny joke where I go I solicit like like people bombed.
You know, when you go Pluto was demoted, a lot
of people are like oh, And then I'd ask if
anyone was like on board with it, like pro And
then if some people give some enthusiasm towards demoting Pluto,
I would go, oh, what you know, what's your problem
with Pluto? You know what, why do you hate Pluto?
And then I go cold, distant. I don't want to
be in a plutonic relationship.
Speaker 1: I like that.
Speaker 3: But I knew there was an astronomer in the room,
and it was brother Guy Consemanno, who is now the
director of the Vatican Observatory. But for years, from two
thousand and eight, I told this story because when I
met him there, he had a great job title.
Speaker 2: He was curator of the Vatican Meteorite Collection.
Speaker 1: Wow, did you know the.
Speaker 2: Vatican had a meteorite collection?
Speaker 1: He did?
Speaker 2: Would that look on your business card?
Speaker 1: But he eventually was promoted to it's nice for them
to have something concrete coming from heaven.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think middle postcards.
Speaker 3: He's like a planetary geologist, so he studied media rights
and the early solar system, and and so I knew
there was an astronomer.
Speaker 2: I told this story for years on stage.
Speaker 3: I knew there was an astronomer in there, so I said,
brother guy, how did you feel about Pluto being demoted?
And he said I was on the committee that decided,
and the room laughed really hard and then they hissed
him and it was so beautiful, and well, it's like,
you know, uh, I love this career path because you know,
in a regular comedy club, what are the odds that
one of the people on the committee that decides the.
Speaker 2: Who is in the audience.
Speaker 1: Working right, you know, right exactly, he should have what
are you doing here?
Speaker 2: Get back to your job, sir. So that was kind
of funny.
Speaker 3: The other thing that happens is sometimes you write a
joke and you're just you just try to think of
the most absurd thing. When I was a kid, I
did have sea monkeys.
Speaker 2: So there's this.
Speaker 3: Nugget of gruth, and then I just extrapolated because what
was always funny to me is there's no monkey involved,
but the packaging.
Speaker 2: You know, they're they're Ryan shrimp, right, But the packaging
is amazing.
Speaker 3: It shows it's like cartoonish and it shows herds of
sea monkeys and they're riding seahorses. So purely so the
the comedic mind just goes from there. Now this is
pure fantasy. It's like sea monkeys riding seahorses. So the
joke I wrote is I bought mine a whole I
bought mine. Oh is that what I said? A whole
herd of seahorses and seahorses eat sea monkeys.
Speaker 2: They're like, hey, Brian shrimp.
Speaker 3: So I just wrote that as a joke, because what's
the most Because that's like, like I used to be
an astronomer.
Speaker 2: What's the worst thing? What's a joke?
Speaker 3: Like, what's the most absurd thing that can happen? That's
a story in just one line. I used to be
an astronomer, but I got stuck on the day shift. Eh, joke,
you know what's the worst thing that could happen? So similarly,
hey see, sea monkeys are riding seahorses. Buy them seahorses,
and the seahorses eat them. But you know what, one
time a guy came up to me after the show
and he goes, hey, I used to raise sea horses
and that's what we fed them, Brian shrimp. So I
totally made an absurd joke that turned out to be true.
Oh well, and you know what, let me tell you
another that's not very sciencey, but it's just ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Remember when George W.
Speaker 3: Bush was president, Remember one time he fell off his bicycle.
This made the news that he fell off his bike,
maybe skinned his knee. And my joke was that the
last time that a president fell off of a bicycle,
it was Grover Cleveland and it was one of those
bikes with the jem Yes, okay, but I didn't have
that word. I kind of riffed that, and I and
then later when I read so I riffed that, I
said Grover Cleveland because off the top of my head,
that was the funniest name of a president that I
could think of. So I looked at the list of
presidents and it was like, oh, that is the funniest name.
Speaker 2: Millard Fillmore, I guess is kind.
Speaker 3: Of funny, but Grover Cleveland, I think I'll stand by
this that. When I looked over, it's like, no, that
is the funniest name.
Speaker 2: So that stands. And then I looked up.
Speaker 3: He is the first president who served two non consecutive terms,
and during one of them, the penny farthing bicycle happened
to become popular. That joke turned out I riffed it
and it was the funniest name and the right time period.
Speaker 1: That's really cool, nice, ridiculous.
Speaker 3: But then you know what sends you knew Bill Hicks,
here's this. I took this really to heart. Different comedian.
One time I was in I've worked a couple of
times with Emo Phillips.
Speaker 2: Many people have called him like.
Speaker 3: The best joke writer in God like, he's pretty brilliant
for a long long time. And one time I worked
with him in San Francisco and then I ran I
did a guest set or something at a club in Canada,
in Toronto, and I was like, hey, you know, hey, Emo,
I don't know.
Speaker 2: If you remember me, And that's the joke of mine.
He remembered. He goes, you had that great.
Speaker 3: Joke about Grover Cleveland fallen, and I was like, oh
my god, yeah, just like what a great joke for
him to have remembered, and just that he remembered anything,
and it was that joke.
Speaker 2: It was like, wow, that felt really good.
Speaker 4: Sweet.
Speaker 1: So, since this is monster talk, are there myths or
legends or monstrous topics you find particularly interesting or fun
to deconstruct scientifically?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, In fact, that's the key.
Speaker 3: That's that's what's But isn't that almost the definition of
being a nerd is to like deconstruct something scientifically, something
that doesn't really need something supernatural that doesn't need to
be constructed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what.
Speaker 3: I I love don't Okay, not a classic monster, but
the Invisible Man.
Speaker 2: And vampires. Let's say vampires. First.
Speaker 1: My wife's vampire racist. She hates vampires.
Speaker 2: Did she did? She have a bad experience with one?
Speaker 1: I know, you know, she she's you know, honestly, this
has really been a really struggle for me because I
love horror movies and she doesn't want to watch any
vampire movies. It kills me, she says, there they're supposed
to be so scary, but there's a thousand ways to
kill them. It's ridiculous, you know. So, I mean, the really,
the really DAGs unless you have sunlight, are salt exactly right?
Speaker 3: Well, that's the sunlight.
Speaker 2: Here's something interesting.
Speaker 3: So the first of all, for the pony side, I
thought a great title for something would be vampires have
no reflections, but have that second meaning.
Speaker 2: Of like no internal uh reflections? Vampires don't.
Speaker 3: Ever, So I had this joke about what it's like
to get a haircut when you wear glasses and they
remove your glasses at the.
Speaker 2: Start of the haircut, and then you don't have access
to them.
Speaker 1: Yes, and I have no idea.
Speaker 3: And now so I would segue from that into the
fact that vampires have no reflections, and I think that's
why they always end up with that same stupid haircut
with a little point.
Speaker 2: Coming down the hair. You know, they can't.
Speaker 3: And uh, and then what I like to think about
and this again, this is like applying science. Uh, are
critical thinking in a place that you normally wouldn't. But like,
vampires are invisible. They have no reflections that you can't
see them in a mirror. Okay, Like, even if I
accept that, how come we can't see their clothes.
Speaker 2: In the mirror? Are they special vampire clothes?
Speaker 3: Do they buy them from special tailors that only stay
open from dust till dawn?
Speaker 2: You know, catering to a catering to a vampire client.
Speaker 3: Tell and then if a vampire, if you wore a
vampire's clothes, would see this is the scientific method.
Speaker 2: If you wore a science of vampire's.
Speaker 3: Clothes, would that render you invisible in a mirror? If
a vampire wore your clothes, would he.
Speaker 2: Just look goofy? So that was a that's an old joke.
Speaker 3: But also, vampires have a problem with sunlight, as your
wife points out, but they have no problem going out
under a full moon and moonlight is just reflected sunlight,
so you would think, yeah, But but here's the thing,
I can also play the other side of that. You know,
I was gonna look this up, but we don't have
to know the spectrum of moonlight is not exactly the
same as sunlight because some wavelengths are going to go
right through the moon, some are absorbed, and it's only
what's reflected. So this could actually help us understand vampires
a little better. Clearly, the sunlight that's reflected by the
moon isn't problematic. So there are some frequencies of light
that are problematic, but it's not the ones reflected by
the moon. So that's kind of fun to be constructed.
And that's not even necessarily funny, but just nerdy. But
the invisible man, the invisible van is great because just
think about the challenges of being invisible. It's hard to
get a taxi or a waiter. People are bumping into
you and stepping on your toes. But here's the big thing,
here's the where the critical thinking comes in. If if
you're invisible, then you would also be blind wind.
Speaker 1: Yes, I've thought about them many times because.
Speaker 3: Your retina, you know, like the way we see light
shines on the retina and it's red. But if the
retina is invisible and transparent, then light would pass right
through it and you would be blind and invisible.
Speaker 4: Never thought of that.
Speaker 2: And you know what. I was talking to Neil dress
Tyson once and he immediately said that HG. Wells. You know,
there have been a lot of invisible.
Speaker 3: Man stories, but the originator more than one hundred years ago, HG.
Speaker 2: Wells.
Speaker 3: He said, he addressed that that actually, if you looked
really closely, his retinas weren't completely invisible, like and that's like, wow,
that's a reparkable idea that he came up with this
idea and he thought it through to that level of
like that's problematic and he had to have some reason
why the way he became invisible, the substances didn't work
very well on the retina, and so pretty cool that HG.
Wells addressed that, I think since then, no makers of
invisible man Films bothered to it to address that, and
also like, uh, I have one a little bit that
I always liked saying that I'm working on a movie script,
kind of a B movie.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: It's called No, No, just a bee movie. It's uh,
it's called The Incredible Shrinking Man meets the Amazing Colossal Man.
Speaker 5: And on the day they meet their regular size, but
then they pass through you know, a radioactive cloud or
something over launch, and one starts shrinking incredibly and the
other starts growing amazingly, and it threatens their ability to
stay friends.
Speaker 2: So then there's a scene towards.
Speaker 3: The end where a very sad, amazing, amazingly sad colossal
man to his mother, and his mom goes, hey, whatever
happened to your little friend?
Speaker 2: And yeah, we grew apart.
Speaker 1: Oh that's pretty good. That's pretty good.
Speaker 2: What not?
Speaker 3: Too long ago I tried to get chat GPT. I
was like, Hey, let me see what chat GPT can
do to flesh this out. I gave it that and
like flesh out a story, and it was a massive failure.
I went many iterations. But the thing that is funny
with with LLM sometimes is that no matter how much
I said it wrapped it up. It always wanted to
be a happy ending, and I'm like, no, there's no
happy ending. He keeps growing and he keeps shrinking. There
is no no, no stop it. And it's like it
takes your like I don't want a happy ending. It
doesn't end, and it just couldn't get around that it had.
Speaker 2: Something like that was a happening.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've never thought of this before just now,
but I guess you know, to the Romans, it wouldn't
be lm, it'd be fifty to fifty one thousand.
Speaker 2: Do you know what that reminds me of? Good?
Speaker 3: I have an old note on the page and it's
like I never used it. But it's like, instead of
saying I've got a million of them, it's like I.
Speaker 2: Got ten to the sixth of them. Not that the science.
Speaker 1: Comedire even better than science, Yes, that's good.
Speaker 3: Also, you know ghosts, you know without doing the whole routine,
you know, I had a routine about ghosts that it's like,
I don't think ghosts are real because if they were real,
they'd be naked.
Speaker 2: Like I don't see how you any way around it.
Speaker 3: At the point that you give up your physical body
transcend the material realm?
Speaker 2: Why are you.
Speaker 3: Still wearing clothes? You know, like, are you little embarrassed,
you know, shy? You know, maybe by your size? But uh,
and also what is it is it? Is it the
clothes that you wore in real life or is it
that gown that you apparently get issued, you know, the
white gown when you check into the afterlife.
Speaker 2: So there was a little more to that, But I
just think I.
Speaker 3: Always thought, like I had a joke about how snooze
alarms tend to be nine minutes and why don't they
just round up to ten?
Speaker 2: I always thought I was much of my humor is
rational early show.
Speaker 3: I used to call my show rational comedy for an
irrational planet.
Speaker 2: But so much of it is this if ghost surreal,
they'd be naked. Duh, you know, like like it's just being.
Speaker 1: Rational, well, combining time and ghosts. This has come up
a lot with Karen and I. There's this thing in
the supernatural world where there's these times that are magical
times midnight, it's magical. Three fix GM is magical, and
it's like, wait a minute, do the ghosts, like are
they aware of time zones and time zone changes? And
like the Eastern Standard, all that stuff, Like it really
doesn't make a lot of sense, you know.
Speaker 2: And on so many levels, it's super scary.
Speaker 1: In a horror movie, and you know, they have it
really does break down, which is good because you a
joke can make you sort of really you know cut,
Oh oh yeah, maybe that's not the terrifying thing that
was keeping me up at now, know, like maybe I
can let that go because it is kind of ridiculous.
Speaker 2: So yeah, you know what you just made me think of.
Speaker 3: What I always thought of as my favorite Isaac Asimov
of science fiction novel is this great book called The
Gods Themselves, and it has to do with communicating with
like another universe. And in this other universe, they're these
creatures that they're less dense than.
Speaker 2: Us, like by about a third.
Speaker 3: Like they're so they're a little ghosty, they're they're they're
much less dense. And their version, I think it's it's
sex and more is that three of them.
Speaker 2: Merge and become one entity.
Speaker 3: And I don't think they remember what that entity does
when they're separated. But then like imagine that's like like
maybe they're each about a third our density, and then
they become for a while a creature that's yeah, but
here was like a weird like his humorous extrapolation, just
the way science fiction does and humor.
Speaker 2: As a is like this extrapolation where.
Speaker 3: Where when they're young, sometimes because they're wispy, if one
of them, like a child, brushes against some furniture or
a wall, they'll pass through it a little bit and
it kind of feels good, and the parents will go,
don't do that, because it's like it's like masturbatory and
it's like, wow, what it would I just that's like
I don't remember much about the book. That's one of
the things that retained because it was like not just
because it was a dirty joke, but because it's like, wow,
what a wild extrapolation from if you have a world
like this, and just like in that.
Speaker 1: Way, yeah, and what I was like, So somehow that
related to comedy.
Speaker 3: I did sort of knock it out of my head
by calling attention to it. I didn't have it the
way the brain works, like, especially when you can remember
something like sometimes you come up with a joker in
the day and you don't write it down, and later
you're like, your memory is good enough to remember, Oh
I thought of something really funni earlier today, but not
good enough to remember what the actual thing, and then
maybe later when you're not thinking about it at all,
all of a sudden, it's like, here's that file.
Speaker 2: You You can.
Speaker 3: Go searching for a memory, you can go search for
a fact and you cannot access it, but you know
it's in there, and later it is served up to you.
Here's that file you were asking for.
Speaker 2: What is good?
Speaker 4: Tip of the tongue.
Speaker 2: What a weird play our brain work.
Speaker 1: I can only hope that the the lag between when
I need to recall something and when it shows up
is is because I now have so many more things
to sort through, not because they're falling apart.
Speaker 4: Well, Brian, we should really wrap things up. Unfortunately, we're
having looks of fun with this discussion. But you've already
mentioned vampires, and you've mentioned invisible men. And our final question,
ask signature question, if you will, is what's your favorite monster?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: I think I'm gonna say the Frankenstein of the original
Frankenstein movie. I grew up on those monster movies and
I would have to like so it's it's Boris Karloff's Frankenstein.
And also Bela Lugosi's Dracula. Those are like most and
the Wolfman love those. But Frankenstein is kind of special because,
first of all, as a book, it's this great book
written by this extraordinarily young woman. It's often called the
first science the first true science fiction novel written by
this was she like seventeen, Mary Shelley, And interestingly, it
was sort of ripped out of the contemporary headlines the
idea of galvanism, and there were public demonstrations of you
was in electricity to animate dead tissue. And so this
young girl, Mary Shelley, took this idea that was current
scientific knowledge and and and in the public sphere, and
she wrote what many people consider the first true science
fiction novel because.
Speaker 2: It's about the science. And then so what a fact.
Speaker 3: Now, But that creature in the in the book isn't
very monstrous. It's so different from the movie version. But
I read the book much later and have so much
respect for it.
Speaker 2: It's so much fun.
Speaker 3: But I think it's the Boris Carlos Frankenstein because that
also the original movie was great and just what a
what a great monster.
Speaker 2: It's kind of typical, and I know he's one of
the number one monsters.
Speaker 1: But reason yeah, oh yeah, Now where do you come
down between the Monster nerd, between Frankenstein and Brida Frankenstein,
Which one do you like better?
Speaker 3: I can't say I know the movies well enough, okay
or for that, but I would say, I guess Frankenstein.
Why do you do some people prefer the Bride of Frankenstein.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, because it's it's got uh the monster
talks and it's you know, in Young Frankenstin they do
the scene with the blind men in the cabin and
that that's riffing on the that scene from the Bride.
It's they're really good together. They work great. I mean
they it really does basically pick up right where the
first one ins and they're not very long, so well
three people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's also Young Frankenstein, which.
Speaker 1: Is so hilarious.
Speaker 3: But you know, in the book, people would be surprised
if they haven't read it the Monster that you know
what they you know what I finally did. I wish
I could tell you the number. I could check it
real quick, but I always wondered. I noticed that she
uses the word wretch and wretched so frequently that the
other day, I was like, Hey, I wonder if I
could just ask Chad gft and and it's like, hey,
can you tell me how many times she used the
word wretch and wretched and it totally answered I don't
know that. I okay, yeah, yeah. According to in the
Project Gutenberg Edition eighteen eighteen texts, wretch appears in the
book forty eight times, wretched thirty six times.
Speaker 2: That's eighty four versions of wretched reach.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of rech interesting.
Speaker 3: The monster is brilliant and narrates and is eloquent and smart,
and he's.
Speaker 1: One of the most philosophical walking corpses out there. Right, Yeah,
it really is exactly and one of the firsts.
Speaker 3: So they've only gone downhill, Like there, you had this
great model, but nobody else has lived up to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm actually pretty excited for some of the new
I want to see Giroma de Toro and they're doing
a new version with The Bride with Christian Bale. I
don't know. I love monsters, and you know, obviously we
want to blend monsters and science, and you really, wow
that that book does it right, man, it brings it
so absolutely. So that's a great answer. Thanks good bank
talk so much, Brian.
Speaker 3: I'm glad we we first talked about doing this, Karen
and I you know, I'm glad we uh got this.
Speaker 4: Back during COVID, so we were doing live shows on
YouTube and so we were we mean to get back
to that at some point too. So I have to
have you back on again.
Speaker 2: So we can be happy to it's so much more
to discuss. Yeah, good stuff, Thank you for having me monster.
Speaker 1: You've been listening to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.
Speaker 2: I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner.
Speaker 1: You just heard science comedian Brian Mallow talking about comedy, science,
and the creative process. You can check out his work
at Sciencecomedian dot com and that's a great place to
find links to all of his social media and his
upcoming gigs. Monster Talks theme music it's still by Pete
Stealing Monkeys. I can't wait for October no matter what happens.
I planned to seriously catch up on some great horror
and monster flicks with my family this year, and we
hope you're excited to
Speaker 2: This has been a Monster House presentation