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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, and welcome to the Paranormal Portal. I'm your host,

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Friend Thomas. Thank you so much for joining us today.

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We've got an epic show ahead. But just remember, if

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any of you have experiences you'd like to share, I'd love.

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Speaker 2: To hear from you.

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Speaker 1: You can either email me at Paranormal Portal Radio at

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gmail dot com or head over to paranormal Portal dot

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net and roll down and find the button that says

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interview me, and that'll allow you to look at the

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calendar of possible times and dates and find a date.

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Speaker 2: That works for you.

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Speaker 1: Love to hear your stories, so definitely get in touch

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with me. Hey everybody, and welcome to the Paranormal Portal Podcast.

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I'm your host Brent Thomas. Thank you all for being here,

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and thank you all for the continued love and support.

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Hope you guys are off to having a great beginning

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to your summer and having a wonderful time not being

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bundled up and freezing. So we got an exceptional show

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lined up for you guys today. I am welcoming Matt

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King who is joining me today. He is an associate

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professor of history in South Florida and his book is

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out there. It's called a History of Goblins, and we're

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going to get into the discussion of goblins and any

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historical and folklore perspective as well as how that emerges

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into our culture. Now, so buckle up, folks, we're going

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to dive in. Hey, Matt, welcome to the show. Thanks

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for coming on, brother.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's my pleasure. I always keep the conversations very

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fluid in stuff because I think an organic discussion is

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much more interesting than having canned interviews. But the one

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can question I always ask people is how did this

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start for you? So, in other words, you're an academic,

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you're and how did you decide I'm going to dive

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into goblins? I just want to know more about this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it came out of just my not frustration,

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but I was just feeling kind of burned out on

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what I had been trained on. Like my specialty is

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in the Crusades in the medieval Mediterranean, so it's just

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a lot of kind of violent, often and bleak texts

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about people fighting each other, you know, Christians, Muslims and Jews,

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and I was just like, I need a.

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Speaker 2: Break from this.

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Speaker 3: And in the course of my reading, I had encountered

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a handful of really interesting kind of just like folkloric tidbits,

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and I decided, maybe this is something worth pursuing. And

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in doing just a bit of reading, I quickly kind

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of started to notice what I thought was a bit

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of a gap in the literature or something that I

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thought I could maybe add to, which was I was

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seeing all this stuff about fairies, about elves, about nature

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spirits and things like that, and like sometimes and then

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that there was the humble little Goblin. But I just

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felt like it wasn't getting the level of attension that

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it deserved, given that it was playing like kind of

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a major part in a few cultural moments in the

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twenty twenties, with the idea of Goblin mode going viral,

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like the esthetic movement of Goblin Core, and I just

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thought that, like, maybe there's something here to tease out historically,

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maybe I can expand this into a larger project. And

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I actually, you know, sent a few emails to academics

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just being like, hey, does this sound like a decent idea,

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and they said, yeah, I think this is doable. And

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so that's how I arrived at it was just out

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of needing a break and thinking that there's something bigger

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to write and hopefully that's you know the case.

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Speaker 1: Well, it is interesting, and it is one of those

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terms that's largely ambiguous, kind of like a troll. You know,

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it's like a troll. Well that it can mean so

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many things, from somebody hanging out under a bridge that's

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really got a bad attitude, or or just waking up crabby.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: So they become part of our culture, these these ideas

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and these these forms. But how do you how do

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you even begin? How did you begin?

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Speaker 3: I like your example of the troll, because that was

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one that as I was like thinking about these creatures

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that have now taken on different cultural meanings today, it's like,

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what do we have? We have the Internet troll. That's

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the way that trolls manifest like, And why is it

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that that creature, this mythological creature that could you know,

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or or folkloric creature that could take any number of forms.

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Why is that the one that became like the worst

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kind of person on the internet, right? And why is

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it that goblin mode is the kind of like way

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of just existing in social isolation and issuing social social

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norms and things like that why is it that in

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the late nineteenth century the term fairy becomes associated like

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a pejorative for gay men? Like this was one of

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those questions that early on kind of fascinated me. It's like,

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how is it that these different folklore creatures came to

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represent different things in our cultures? And why is it

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that a troll becomes this, a goblin this, and elf?

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This your question? Initially? Apologies, I totally just went off

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on a on a side tangent thera. What was the

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initial question?

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't even remember how to say. I was

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so into what you were saying. But just I think

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it's interesting that these terms they have such a that

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they have almost a generic quality to them. But you know,

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how how do you start going towards the source of

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all of this and diving into where does it begin?

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Speaker 2: Where? Did where? Did?

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Speaker 1: Where did goblin begin?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: And I think the word itself is what I ultimately

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decided on, because like you're right, Like, there's a couple

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of ways to approach It's like one, if you are

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a Christian, the elogian of like the seventeenth century, you

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think none of these things are real, or you think

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they're all just demons, right, and so like, ultimately, if

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it's called a goblin or an elf or an orc

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or whatever, I mean, that's what the dumb villagers call it.

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You know, it's like Satan in disguise or it's their

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own hallucinations. And so like you're like, for most of

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this history, we're getting these like words that are more

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or less interchangeable with one another, with some exceptions, but like, yeah,

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an elf is more or less a goblin, a hobgoblin

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is a night walking spirit, and there there's no like

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real rhymer reason to them, with like some exceptions. I'll

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like there's one book called The Boggart that Simon Jung

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wrote that talks about this one particular kind of solitary

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supernatural creature, primarily in like western England, and he's trying

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to like isolate that word and try to understand, you know,

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exactly what came to it, And in some ways, I

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think with goblins, I was like, I'm I'm just look

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at the word itself, like I'm gonna start with the

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earliest iteration of it that we have, which is from

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a twelfth century monk in northern France who talked about

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a demon that's expelled from a temple and the common

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people call it goblinus. That's our word, that's our starting

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point for it. And then we know it migrates into

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the British Isles in the subsequent centuries and it becomes

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a really common designator of preternatural creatures and then also

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humans or just weird ideas, things that look strange. So

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there's the strand of the sort of supernatural running throughout it.

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But then around it too are just like the ugly

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dude that is called a hobgoblin, or the idea that

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is stupid that a politician refers to as like a

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goblin bill or something like that. And so it's these

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folkloric ideas that are interspersed with these other uses that

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we see really throughout the history. But you're you're right

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to bring up that, like, the classifications of supernatural creatures

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are really slippery, whether you have encountered them or not. Right,

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It's it's really unclear. And so it ultimately was my

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decision to say, Okay, I'm not going to try to parse,

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at least at the outset, what makes a goblin different

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from a fairy. I'm not going to try to say

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the goblin is a subset of fairy, or that the

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elf is a cousin of the goblin, or that the

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goblin is a duende, but in a different language. Right,

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I just said, I'm going to look at this word

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and let's see how it's moved over time and how

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it reflects like the people who have who have evokes

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that word.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is is very, very interesting. And of course,

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as you and I were talking prior to recording, it's

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like I think we're we're a culture of stories, and

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it's one of the greatest vehicles we have for passing wisdom, knowledge, ideas, morality,

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any number of you know, growth mechanisms. They're all done

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through the power of stories. And it's interesting to see

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how an idea may have started there but then becomes

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absorbed on a global scale. You know that. And I

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suppose that also is part of the ambiguity of it,

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because what had started out meaning can mean a whole

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different thing where it ends up, and so that's got

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to be a mess.

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Speaker 2: It's a total mess.

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Speaker 3: And like when folklore became kind of like a specialized

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academic discipline in the nineteenth century, along with just like

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the rise of universities generally, and in one of the

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early manuals assembled by the Folklore Society, there's a whole

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chapter that is called Goblin dumb like Kingdom, and it's

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just about like the different kinds of creatures that are

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part of this goblin umbrella and the question that you

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should ask of people to try to understand, you know,

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what kind of goblins inhabit their lives in some form

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or another.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fantastic and curious. But in the in the

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root of it all, it was a demon as far

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as what you can answertain, right, was.

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Speaker 3: Early recollect like the earliest word uses we have is

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a monk whose primary concern is salvation and sin, right,

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writing about this demon, and he says, the commoners call

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it goblin, and it's kind of like haunts the city

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of Evro, and that's our that's our first iteration of it.

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And the story itself, I think is illustrative of some

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of the like huge issues with talking about folklore from

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like I don't know, pre nineteenth century, which is that

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most of the texts are written by elite monks, like

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elite religious officials who are really skeptical of these folk beliefs.

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And there's one like sermon that I found from the

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it was either the fourteenth or fifteenth century, in which

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this preacher is like, Okay, we have these things called

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lesser demons, and these demons some people call them elves,

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some call them goblins. They might control the weather, but

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we're not really sure, so let's just move past it

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because we should be focusing on other things that God does.

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And it's one of these just like really great like

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anecdotes where you can see that this preacher sure has

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to address these creatures because the people of his congregation

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believe in them, right, but there aren't easy answers to it.

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It's like they might control the weather, sure we'll give

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you that, but it doesn't really go beyond that. And

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that's what I encountered. Just a ton of these sources

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are these traditions that clearly persist across centuries in various forms.

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We see people believing in goblins, as you know, household

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helpers who if you're loyal to them, though, they might

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perform chores in the night, or they might just cause

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mischief in the house, especially if disrespected. They might haunt

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a location, they might lead travelers astray all of these things,

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and many of the stories come to us from theologians

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who are saying, look at all these superstitious rural people, right,

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We're so much better than them in our cities, right,

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and our education. And so I spent a lot of

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the first few chapters of this book especially, just kind

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of like reading these texts and being like, Okay, you

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know what, what underlying ideas about these creatures can I

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get from these really skeptical writers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, does in the in the in the understanding

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of the term, are the definition of goblin? Is there

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any key indicators of what that might entail?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: Is it generally classically speaking, when we hear the word goblin,

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we're thinking of this little creature often depicted as green colored,

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exaggerated grotesque features, you know, crawling creepily through the world.

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Is does that does that stereotype or archetype maintain through

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different cultures as well, or does it become really widespread?

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What it defines?

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Speaker 3: It's never like every single idea that you gave there,

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I can find examples that work for it and examples

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that don't. Okay, And so the the green skin one

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is a great one to bring up when I like,

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I'm generally against like these new AI models, right, but

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I decided, for the sake of just my own just

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kind of interest, to run to ask all these AI

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models to give me a picture of a goblin. Uniformly,

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every single one was green, no exceptions at all. Yeah,

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and that's like a reflection of World of Warcraft, maybe

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Spider Man, right, like of a handful like really popular

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iterations of goblins, because in the history they're really just

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associated with darkness generally, okay, And the early associations of

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like a green goblin usually it's they're wearing green clothes.

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Fairies are often kind of lumped in with green arey,

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you know, they live in forests and things like that,

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But goblins are often dark and they are sinful, and

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there's a connection between those two things. So yeah, they're

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not always green. Some of them are, even if we're

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looking at even like you know, like the more fantastical

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interpretations that I think influence are understanding of how they

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look generally, you know, like in early iterations of D

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and D, they're not green. They're like gray and gray,

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yellow and red.

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Speaker 2: And things like that.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, the I in the book, I don't say,

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like a goblin, is this thing exactly? I say, here

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are some common strands, and you hit on a number

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of them, like, yeah, they tend to be small, some

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of them are large though they tend to be mischievous

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to malevolent, but some of them are helpful. They tend

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to be right on the edge of where humans exist.

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Right they're not sitting next to me here, but they

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might be in the corner of a room when it's dark,

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or they're in the forest or the mind next to

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where people are working, and they might help you, they

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might hurt you. And they tend to be ugly in

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some way or grotesque. As you say, some of them

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are beautiful, but often they're like kind of a pale

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reflection and like of humans. We see that in some

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of the goblin kingdoms. That that's more in fiction, granted,

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but like they're like a pale reflection of arc worlds,

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which in turn, in these worlds are like a pale

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reflection of the beautiful fairy case doms up in the heavens.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, the definition itself is just elusive, and it's

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I'm sure that's an annoying answer to everyone listening. I

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00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,599
can't give like three sentences that really nails it down.

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But the whole idea is that, like there's too much

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00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,440
here and too many traditions to just give one coherent thing.

306
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,000
And that's why everyone hates academics, right, we just we

307
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just make things complicated for you and we don't give

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you like the easy, like definitive answer.

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Speaker 1: Sure, but to be fair, you're you're trying to untangle

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the worst game of telephone from Hell that takes place

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over the centuries, you know. I mean, it's these these

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amalgamations of ideas, as, these terms spread, what do they mean? Like,

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I'm thinking this probably comes up a lot. Like in

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terms of bigfoot, we have globally, there's hundreds, literally hundreds

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of names of what these creatures are and or at

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least or at least they're very closely related, from like

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the the yarin in China to the the the the bigfoot, sasquatch, grassman,

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skunkcape Yowie in Australia, girlgowk, big man, gray man. There's

319
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so many iterations of it, and each place seems to

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there's always the similar anchor points though that they're they're

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these elusive creatures that seem to live in our absence

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or choose our absence, and they live in the wild,

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feral places in the world, and they subsist fine without us,

324
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you know, try to avoid them. Are there are there

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common threads that you found with the goblin in your

326
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,480
in your chasing down what is this and what does

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it meaner? How does it move around the globe? Are

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there common pieces that are consistent throughout definitions of it?

329
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think there are some commonalities, even

330
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if they're not like universal. So like to to Juxapos

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with the bigfoot example, as I understand it, and this

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is just based on my own like Seattle upbringing sasquatches,

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bigfoot in folklore, they like never seek out humans, right,

334
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They're trying to avoid humans. No, no, am I am

335
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I mistaken there.

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Speaker 1: They're generally considered very curious. They choose people on their terms.

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They don't they I mean they avoid people if people

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come into areas, but they are known to approach to observe.

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They seem to be a very curious creature, so they

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do come in to observe.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So like with when we're talking about goblins, and

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I think fairies more generally, and here I have to

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go broad because we're like, we're the definitions are so

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ob skewed, Like we're often dealing with social supernatural creatures,

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ones that are choosing certain humans to interact with and

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taking them to places that are just outside of our

347
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own world, so called fairyland or like a lower hemisphere

348
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depending on the author. And so they're in you, like

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you experience things that are not beholden to the rules

350
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of our own world. And this is often framed in

351
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documents as something that has happened a long time ago

352
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but no longer happens. It's a term that Barbara Rietti

353
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has called the perpetual recession of the fairies. It's this

354
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idea that the fairies are no longer existent, but they

355
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used to be, and they're kind of always kind of

356
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receding from view. Funnily enough, because so many people say

357
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that we just have evidence of people believing in fairies

358
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across the decades and the centuries, and so often you

359
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get these stories about fairies written by people who are

360
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claiming that they're no longer believed in. This happened at

361
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Joan of ARC's trial, like she was eventually convicted on

362
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grounds of you know, cross dressing, which is a heresy,

363
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but like early on there was discussion her trial of

364
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like the fairies at dome Remi, her village and the

365
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and everyone said, well, at olden times these things happen,

366
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but no longer, and so these interactions are often framed

367
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in accounts as like, oh, not anymore, but at one

368
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point they did. We also have, with regards to goblins,

369
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associations with forests and minds. This is often based on

370
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what is next to human settlement. So if travelers are

371
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passing through mysterious woods at night and there aren't a

372
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lot of other people around, and danger lurks in the shadows,

373
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that's where you might find a goblin. Similarly, during the

374
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Industrial Revolution, we have stories of goblins and minds because

375
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people are digging under the mountains and you might hear,

376
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you know, the knockers if we're talking about Cornwall, the

377
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Cobalds of Germany, right, And so we get these encounters

378
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with these preternatural creatures in spaces that are really on

379
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the doorstep of where the humans are in terms of

380
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the kinds of interactions. You know, early, I think the

381
00:23:01,599 --> 00:23:04,079
earlier you go, the more likely an interaction with the

382
00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:05,920
goblin is going to be a bad one for the

383
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,359
human right. It might be leading them to a human

384
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to death. It might be leading them into sin, which

385
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for the clerics is even worse than death. It might

386
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be just getting them lost, for example, kind of like

387
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in a mischievous way. There's one text that talks about

388
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,799
a how goblins used to like lure those who are

389
00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:28,240
looking for illicit nighttime trysts into circles and then when

390
00:23:28,279 --> 00:23:30,160
the sun would pop out, the goblin would laugh and

391
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,519
then the would be lover was like, ah, damn, So

392
00:23:33,799 --> 00:23:35,920
that's not that's not what I wanted to have happens,

393
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,200
and I and so those are those are a few

394
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,519
of the threads there. And to piggyback on what what

395
00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:44,839
you were asking too. Yeah, they tend to be dark

396
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,279
skinned of some sort, tend to be small as most

397
00:23:47,279 --> 00:23:52,160
fairies are, and tend to be atypical in movements like

398
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,400
we hear a lot about long arms and long fingers,

399
00:23:54,880 --> 00:24:00,319
erratic kind of like dances and movements generally, as well

400
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,599
as some sort of like deformities that usually reflects kind

401
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:08,160
of ugliness according to White authors more or less.

402
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: Oh, you know, I found something really interesting that we

403
00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:13,680
were saying before, and I just took a note here

404
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,480
because I wanted to make sure to cover this with you,

405
00:24:17,839 --> 00:24:20,200
and that was that, you know, a lot of what

406
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:25,400
you're able to research was recorded from a very Christian perspective,

407
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from these religious monk like you know, monk squires and

408
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,119
pages and whatever have you. So everything that was recorded,

409
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,319
of course, is through their lens, through their paradigm and

410
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:42,000
their worldview. One thing that's interesting that we're seeing a

411
00:24:42,039 --> 00:24:45,240
lot of right now that I'm noticing anyway, and many

412
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,599
of our listeners I'm sure are going to be familiar

413
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,480
with this, is that, of course there's a and I

414
00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:54,160
don't mean to get really spider webs in our own

415
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,279
discussion here, but it's a phenomenon that I think is

416
00:24:57,319 --> 00:24:59,839
playing itself over and over. And this is in the

417
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,920
fol community that there's a disclosure push going on, and

418
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,640
now there's there's like this increasing pressure from the more

419
00:25:09,319 --> 00:25:14,279
religious views to regard these not as our friendly visitors

420
00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:19,559
from the stars, maybe transdimensional, but probably demonic. So it's

421
00:25:19,599 --> 00:25:23,240
like this, this Christian perspective is pushing into this now

422
00:25:23,759 --> 00:25:26,440
and it's causing you know, a lot of people to go, oh, well,

423
00:25:26,559 --> 00:25:28,759
I don't want to see UFOs because that means demons

424
00:25:28,759 --> 00:25:32,000
are here. And so it does. That is a theme

425
00:25:32,599 --> 00:25:35,920
that scarily enough, seems kind of timeless. And and I'm

426
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,119
not putting down anybody's religious or spiritual outlooks, but I

427
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,240
think that it's surprising to look at an unknown and

428
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,039
yet feel like you can attribute its whole nature to

429
00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:49,240
it based on your worldview, you know what I mean?

430
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this is this is where we're getting into, like,

431
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,319
you know, people's perspectives. And here my goal in writing

432
00:25:59,319 --> 00:26:01,799
this book was not to judgment on what people believed.

433
00:26:01,839 --> 00:26:05,720
I'm just looking to understand how their worlds exist, right,

434
00:26:05,759 --> 00:26:08,640
and so the phenomenon, like I I'm not as deep

435
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,079
in the this as you are, but what I've seen

436
00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:16,319
is like a New York Times podcast about UFOs from Rosstutit,

437
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,319
who's a conservative Catholic.

438
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 2: We have JD.

439
00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:22,319
Speaker 3: Vance talking about aliens and UFOs, and what I'd say

440
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,000
is that like both of them are Catholic, which I

441
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,839
think is relevant. You know, if you believe in a

442
00:26:29,839 --> 00:26:33,200
certain religious doctrine in which there is a singular God

443
00:26:33,279 --> 00:26:36,240
and there's this like heaven and Hell dichotomy.

444
00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:37,559
Speaker 2: Maybe with purgatory there like.

445
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,319
Speaker 3: You are constrained, I guess in how you can interpret

446
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,400
phenomena that are outside of our understanding. And one of

447
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,640
the ways that makes sense to classify is as demonic

448
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,799
in some form. This this reminds me a lot of

449
00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:57,400
like the Reformation, in which these things that were these

450
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,119
creatures that were like seen as being the products of

451
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:07,240
witches and summoners. They were just like widely dismissed by

452
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,240
Protestants because like Catholics might say that a witch can

453
00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:36,160
summon demons, Protestants were less likely to do. So this

454
00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:38,200
was just a whole kind of like divide that happens

455
00:27:39,039 --> 00:27:40,200
in the sixteenth century.

456
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:40,559
Speaker 2: And so.

457
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 3: You know, like I'm not gonna like tell any of

458
00:27:46,039 --> 00:27:49,160
these people that their interpretation of UFOs is right or wrong.

459
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,759
But I understand if you're a Catholic and you deeply

460
00:27:51,799 --> 00:27:55,799
believe in that theology, why you would take anything that

461
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,200
seems to be coming from outside of our knowledge as

462
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,400
potentially the work of an afarious force. That's not necessarily

463
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,640
what I think. And when I think about like modern

464
00:28:06,079 --> 00:28:10,119
kind of run ins with creatures that are outside of

465
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,680
like our understanding, I am struck by the work that

466
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,599
Simon Young has done. I brought him up earlier on

467
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,960
the fairy Census. Is that something you've encountered before?

468
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,079
Speaker 2: No, I'm okay.

469
00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 3: So it's publicly available online, and this is the work

470
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,160
of a British historian who has gone through and collected

471
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:36,640
a thousand or two thousand fairy encounters, describing them in

472
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,880
publicly available documents. So to give you an example of one,

473
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,160
this is from I'm just reading from the screen here.

474
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,960
This is number five thirty three A. This is from

475
00:28:47,759 --> 00:28:51,160
a woman from the twenty tens. She says, the manager

476
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:52,519
of the shop I was working in a couple of

477
00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:56,440
years ago, was driving between her home late one night

478
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,559
when she saw, in her words, what I can only

479
00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:01,039
describe as a goblin in the lights running across the

480
00:29:01,079 --> 00:29:03,079
road and into the hedge. So that's the entirety of

481
00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:05,920
the entry, right, But we have like two thousand of

482
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:11,359
these or so that testify to people having these encounters

483
00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:14,599
that they perceive as fairy encounters. And there are surveys

484
00:29:14,599 --> 00:29:18,319
too from major research institutes that show that in some

485
00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:21,559
places people still really hold these beliefs. If you're a

486
00:29:21,599 --> 00:29:25,559
practicing Catholic, you might say demons or the hallucinations of

487
00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:29,160
people who are on meds or something. But if you're

488
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,200
sympathetic to these ideas, yeah, why not, right? And so

489
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,000
that's what I That was kind of like the challenge

490
00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:39,079
I had in writing this is trying to like understand

491
00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:43,000
the worlds of the people who are encountering these creatures

492
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:45,359
and never to dismiss them, but instead trying to understand,

493
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,720
you know, what is shaping those encounters.

494
00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: Well, you know one thing that I've discovered since doing

495
00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:54,759
this show. And before I started doing this show, I thought,

496
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,160
I know this stuff, I got it all figured out.

497
00:29:57,559 --> 00:29:59,319
I can do a show. And then I started doing

498
00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:02,279
the show, and then you start diving down these rabbit

499
00:30:02,319 --> 00:30:05,319
holes and you realize what an intricate web all of

500
00:30:05,359 --> 00:30:09,799
this stuff is. And my point being that I think

501
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,880
one aspect of it that gets overlooked a lot is

502
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,640
the experiencer. That we often look at the people that

503
00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:20,839
experience things like seeing a goblin, seeing a ghost, seeing

504
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,880
a UFO, having an abduction, any number of things, seeing bigfoot,

505
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,039
we think of those as more incidental pieces that that

506
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,720
was just what was there to absorb this experience without

507
00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:36,920
really tying into the fact that I think the experiencer

508
00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:40,519
is a is probably a key part of the experience.

509
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,200
And by that, what I'm saying is I think we

510
00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:49,680
are incredibly powerful manifestors of our experience that we do create.

511
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,000
And I'm not just like, oh, I'm gonna have a

512
00:30:51,039 --> 00:30:52,559
good day. Wow, it was a great day. I was,

513
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,160
I was right. I manifest that. I mean that I

514
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,160
think that on a very fundamental level, we are very

515
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,720
involved in creating our experience here in this world, and

516
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,720
I think that that can have a lot to do

517
00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:07,519
with the way we observe the world. And so then

518
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:14,319
the experiencer has to observe this chaotic event and attribute

519
00:31:14,319 --> 00:31:16,039
reason to it. So it's got to go through the

520
00:31:16,039 --> 00:31:19,279
filters of the person. So what may have been some

521
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,519
ambiguous creature becomes a goblin, because that's a point of

522
00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:25,839
reference the person grabs onto and therefore it's recorded now

523
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,359
as a goblin. Is it really a goblin? Well, hell,

524
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,079
I don't know, because I'm not really sure what goblins are.

525
00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:36,920
But they're everywhere. But so are these experiences, And so

526
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,559
I think that we often diminish our involvement in these

527
00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:48,200
experiences as again more peripheral, whereas we are a key

528
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:48,680
part of the.

529
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 3: Moment, and you're absolutely hitting on something that was like

530
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,559
really hard for me in this, which is that like

531
00:31:56,119 --> 00:31:59,799
only like when we get to like these later accounts

532
00:31:59,799 --> 00:32:03,839
of people experiencing goblins, I sometimes have their own words,

533
00:32:03,839 --> 00:32:07,000
and that's great, like I can that makes things easier

534
00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:09,720
even in like some of these nineteenth century accounts we have,

535
00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:12,640
you know, someone describing a story as told to them

536
00:32:12,839 --> 00:32:16,319
directly or close to it. When we further back in time,

537
00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:19,359
we get though, the more removed I am from the

538
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,559
person who had this purported experience, and so sometimes I'm

539
00:32:23,599 --> 00:32:28,279
like three people between the young peasant from a rural

540
00:32:28,359 --> 00:32:34,039
village who had this encounter with a faery, right, And

541
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,519
so what I'm getting is just like a sliver, like

542
00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:41,359
an absolute sliver of this experience, and like the experience

543
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,920
of that person, it's just gone right. It has lost

544
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,119
the time. And the best I can do is try

545
00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:47,880
to understand through looking at as many of these as

546
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,559
I can what you know, people might have thought based

547
00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:54,160
on this, but you're it was just like it's such

548
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,960
a it often feels like just a totally fruitless endeavor,

549
00:32:57,039 --> 00:32:59,400
like I'm never I accept that I'm never going to

550
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,240
really understand and you know how these people felt and

551
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,279
interacted and interfaced, especially with like what we'd consider the supernatural.

552
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,759
But you know, these sources give us a fascinating just

553
00:33:11,359 --> 00:33:13,920
sliver into a glimpse into it that I try to

554
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,039
tease out. And unfortunately, there's a lot of scholars that

555
00:33:17,079 --> 00:33:19,400
have you know, been doing work like this too that

556
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,279
hopefully is making our world richer in our understanding of

557
00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:24,680
different cultures in different times.

558
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, earlier you had you had alluded to the

559
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:34,480
fact that some variations of the Goblin story we were

560
00:33:34,519 --> 00:33:41,480
almost positive and not necessarily regarded as a dark, horrible thing,

561
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,640
but that we're serving some positive purpose. Can you get

562
00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:47,640
go into that a little more? What are some examples

563
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:47,960
of that?

564
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: Sure?

565
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,359
Speaker 3: So the first one that comes to mind is an

566
00:33:51,359 --> 00:33:54,519
example from a British politician who said that the English

567
00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:59,039
hobgoblin is is good because the English hobgoblin punishes those

568
00:33:59,079 --> 00:34:03,400
who don't do their work essentially, whereas it might reward

569
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,159
those who are like helpful or who are like industrious essentially,

570
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,400
like it's more or less like a reinforcing of British

571
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,360
work ethic. You also have the goblins that the so

572
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,920
called drudging goblin. It's from a poem by John Milton

573
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,800
that you might pay in order to churn your butter, right,

574
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,239
turn your milk into butter. So it's often tied to

575
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,199
household labor essentially, and it might be the goblin might

576
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,280
be helpful therein you also might get the goblin who

577
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,960
reward you, you know, with something, but then turns around

578
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,519
and makes your life harder later on. So when I

579
00:34:44,559 --> 00:34:48,000
think about the positive things, it's most often that sort

580
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,840
of household side of things. The negative stuff is like

581
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:57,519
everywhere else, it's haunting and causing commotion and that sort

582
00:34:57,519 --> 00:34:57,920
of stuff.

583
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 1: The reason that I ask is because what came up

584
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,039
to me is, of course you're you're bringing up another

585
00:35:05,159 --> 00:35:08,000
term that you've mentioned before, but it's hobgoblin and what

586
00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:11,480
does the hobb add to the word goblin in a

587
00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:14,840
in an academic way that distinguishes it from one from

588
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:15,159
the other.

589
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the so again, you know, we're dealing with

590
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,239
two words that were often interchangeable. Hobb could have been

591
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,199
the word like it's the word for hearth, like the

592
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,039
container you a shelf that sits on a hearth. It

593
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:29,679
also is the term for another folklort creature in like

594
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,960
northern England and Scotland, and so it might just be

595
00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:34,000
kind of combined the two together, or it could be

596
00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:37,239
this particular domestic kind. But what we do see, like

597
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,159
in the written record, is that the hobgoblin becomes more

598
00:35:41,159 --> 00:35:46,360
associated with like merriment and joy. And this is kind

599
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,119
of based more on Shakespeare, because in A Midsummer's Night Dream,

600
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,440
which is itself like heavily inspired.

601
00:35:51,079 --> 00:35:53,679
Speaker 2: By folklore, you have the character of Puck, who's.

602
00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 3: Also called called Robin Goodfellow, who's also called called hobgoblin.

603
00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:01,079
And so we have this folk lord traditional hobgoblin that

604
00:36:01,199 --> 00:36:05,360
Shakespeare puts into his play, and Shakespeare becomes uber popular

605
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,840
and everyone knows him, and so that in turn influences

606
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,400
how the folklore develops and it's that kind of annoyingly

607
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,679
hazy interplay that's kind of present throughout this. But Hobgoblin

608
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,400
takes on this kind of merry traveler persona, this like, uh,

609
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:25,400
this more this kinder creature, whereas goblins it's it's a

610
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,639
little bit more generic. It's more of like an all

611
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:32,119
encompassing term. And you see more associations with like evil

612
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,360
and maliciousness. Uh, that kind of separates them. And then

613
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,840
this becomes, uh, you know, even more further divided when

614
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,719
you get into like the more explicit, like explicitly like

615
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:43,679
fictional works.

616
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,519
Speaker 1: Gotcha, because when you were when you're saying hobgoblin versus goblin,

617
00:36:47,519 --> 00:36:49,599
I was thinking, well, that's kind of interesting because of

618
00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:52,840
course everybody knows what the demon is, but a deemon

619
00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:56,519
is generally considered a much more positive for us, or

620
00:36:56,559 --> 00:37:00,400
at least benign, whereas a demon is is absolutely contrary

621
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,840
to everything good. So I was wondering your voice kind

622
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:03,239
of like that.

623
00:37:04,199 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, the nothing like quite that definitive, but there is

624
00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:12,840
a real break, I would say, in like the early

625
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,440
modern period in associations. And I think there's even one

626
00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:18,280
ballad this it's called a broadside Ballads it's like a

627
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,119
cheap piece of music that could be sung, and it

628
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,920
reveals more of like what might have been sung in

629
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,559
a pub in a village than.

630
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:27,639
Speaker 2: Most sources.

631
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,119
Speaker 3: And I think it refers to Hobgoblin driving out the

632
00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:35,280
goblins or something like that, like a Mary Hobgoblin taking

633
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,360
out all of the bad things, the imps and the

634
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,880
demons and the goblins. We see goblins lumped in with

635
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,679
ghosts and imps with some degree of frequency.

636
00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:47,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's you know, an imp would be a

637
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,719
great tie in there for the demonic. Of course, they're

638
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,559
supposedly at the task masters are of the imp in

639
00:37:56,639 --> 00:38:00,480
many regards, are alleged to be the demons, and so

640
00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:04,480
that's interesting. I was thinking of of also, like in

641
00:38:04,559 --> 00:38:09,159
Slavic traditions, there's a house spirit. Now it's never described

642
00:38:09,199 --> 00:38:12,079
as a very attractive thing. It's usually kind of creepy

643
00:38:12,159 --> 00:38:15,400
little things, but they're I think they're called the domovoi,

644
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,760
and they're they're regarded as these positive spirits of the house.

645
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:23,440
And I was wondering if there's any any version of

646
00:38:23,519 --> 00:38:26,400
Goblin that you came through that would also tie or

647
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:27,159
align with that.

648
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

649
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 3: The tricky thing here is that there's so much variation

650
00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:34,519
the word goblin that you could slot it into virtually

651
00:38:34,599 --> 00:38:37,480
any like we could go with the Spanish duende, we

652
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,119
could the Japanese yokai or kappa. Right, we could just

653
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,760
find any like number of global creatures to like slott

654
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,760
it into and translate something as I mean, I found

655
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:54,119
a bunch of translations of like Buddhist demons essentially, or

656
00:38:54,159 --> 00:38:58,199
like Buddhist spirits as goblins, the specific spirits varying depending

657
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,320
on the translator. So yeah, I and it with like

658
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,480
the ones I see most commonly kind of like juxtapose,

659
00:39:04,639 --> 00:39:10,159
are like the Brownie, the Nisa, the cobald, those other

660
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,000
kind of European spirits that were the common points of

661
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,199
comparison for authors who are trying to say, like, well,

662
00:39:16,199 --> 00:39:18,000
this is a Scottish tradition, this is an English tradition,

663
00:39:18,039 --> 00:39:19,519
this is a French tradition, and so on.

664
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: Oh I got ya, I got cha. So so, and

665
00:39:24,519 --> 00:39:27,360
I'm putting you out there a little bit, But do

666
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,679
you have any idea like, well, how should I best

667
00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:35,719
say this? Do you have an openness of mind to

668
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,400
to acknowledge that maybe there's something to this even still

669
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,880
that people are seeing or experiencing some sort of anomalies

670
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,320
that they're interpreting as goblins.

671
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,519
Speaker 3: I mean, I'll give you two answers. Like one is,

672
00:39:47,559 --> 00:39:50,039
as a historian, I don't see it as my job

673
00:39:50,119 --> 00:39:55,719
to like just like evaluate the like factualness of a

674
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,400
statement like that. Instead, what I want to do is understand, oh,

675
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:01,679
what this person thinks, why they think it, what it

676
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,400
says about their world, their culture, and things like that.

677
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,320
That's my professional answer when it comes to me, Like specifically,

678
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,880
I borrow from the folklorist Catherine Briggs, who says she's

679
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,159
like agnostic on the subject, which is where I'm like

680
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,679
every year, I feel like the past iteration of me

681
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,559
was very stupid in some form or just didn't get it.

682
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,079
And so at this point I'm of the perspective that

683
00:40:24,119 --> 00:40:28,079
I'm never going to understand everything about this world, and

684
00:40:28,159 --> 00:40:32,079
so I don't have any particular experiences with these sort

685
00:40:32,079 --> 00:40:35,800
of creatures. I don't dismiss those who have them, but

686
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,840
it's also not like the emphasis of what I'm of

687
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,880
what I'm working on. So I welcome the stories especially.

688
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,480
I appreciate what you said at the beginning of this

689
00:40:47,559 --> 00:40:50,400
conversation about the importance of stories, right, And I think

690
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,039
that's one of the sort of one of the most

691
00:40:55,079 --> 00:40:57,559
rewarding parts of doing this book is just encountering so

692
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:02,360
many stories about goblins that help explain away, for example,

693
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,119
like why building supplies are going missing. You know these goblins,

694
00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:07,599
these goblin builders have taken it away from this construction

695
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,119
or something like that. Just love the stories that come

696
00:41:11,159 --> 00:41:11,559
out of it.

697
00:41:12,079 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, what were those? There was some little creatures that

698
00:41:15,519 --> 00:41:19,679
were that were supposedly uh sabotaging airplanes during World War Two?

699
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 2: What were those?

700
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,639
Speaker 3: That's the gremlin? Og Yeah, yeah, I believe that is

701
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,079
that word is specifically like that's one of the few

702
00:41:27,159 --> 00:41:29,320
like kind of folklore creatures where it's like, we know

703
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,960
the point of origin for it. I think it's either

704
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,960
World War yeah, world War two. Uh so, yeah, the

705
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,719
the gremlin used to explain away engine failures. Yes, yes,

706
00:41:39,039 --> 00:41:41,199
and then turned into a famous Steven Spielberg movie.

707
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 2: Right.

708
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: There's money to be had there, definitely, right.

709
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,079
Speaker 3: So not in goblins, though goblins famously have been there.

710
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,679
There's been a few attempts to do like horror movies

711
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,239
with goblins, and they're commonly noted as.

712
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 2: Like the worst movies ever made.

713
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,119
Speaker 3: You get David Bowie and labyrinth as like the real

714
00:41:59,159 --> 00:42:00,000
like Architects.

715
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,119
Speaker 1: That was a great movie. Yeah, yeah, I love Labyrinths. Yep,

716
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:07,440
very cool. I I gotta I gotta wonder is this

717
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,119
is this a first of for you or is it

718
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:15,199
your your plan now to go dig into something wholly different?

719
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:16,800
Or where are you going from here?

720
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,599
Speaker 3: I am wait. I want to see what the reviews

721
00:42:21,639 --> 00:42:25,519
are of this book, both from the people as well

722
00:42:25,519 --> 00:42:29,719
as from other academics, because you know, a lot of

723
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,559
a lot of the people writing on this subject, like

724
00:42:31,599 --> 00:42:33,800
some of them are folklores by training, some of them

725
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,440
are historians, some of them are based in literature, and

726
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,360
so there's just a lot of different thoughts going around.

727
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,000
And I want to see what people think. And if

728
00:42:41,039 --> 00:42:43,199
people say, like this guy is off his rocker, he

729
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,159
has misinterpreted every source, this doesn't make any sense, then

730
00:42:46,199 --> 00:42:49,480
I might go back to like the medieval Mediterranean, right.

731
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,079
But if if they're positive reactions, then I think there

732
00:42:53,159 --> 00:42:54,679
might be more to be said there.

733
00:42:55,119 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 2: You know.

734
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 3: I think you can, like you can write histories about

735
00:42:58,039 --> 00:43:02,679
these these creatures in any number of ways. And there's

736
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,679
like Francis Young just came out with the Fairies a

737
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,079
history which kind of takes the opposite approach to my book,

738
00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:11,159
which is like he looks at the idea of the

739
00:43:11,199 --> 00:43:14,239
fairies as these like preternatural creatures written large and tries

740
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,199
to tell them from a folkloric context primarily, whereas like

741
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,559
I go pretty explicitly into the realms of the fantastic,

742
00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:25,880
like the expressly like literary, fictional, theatrical, and things like that.

743
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,440
And so I just want to see how things shake

744
00:43:28,519 --> 00:43:30,960
out with those reviews before I go digging. But I

745
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,400
really enjoyed this process, and I really enjoyed seeing the

746
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:38,960
interplay between folk beliefs and you know, these paranormal encounters

747
00:43:39,039 --> 00:43:42,039
as well as popular media and how they intersect.

748
00:43:41,559 --> 00:43:42,119
Speaker 2: With each other.

749
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 3: You know, I would welcome the idea of, you know,

750
00:43:46,079 --> 00:43:48,599
people writing the history of gnomes and things like that,

751
00:43:48,639 --> 00:43:50,599
like why is it the gnome and the goblin, which

752
00:43:50,599 --> 00:43:53,519
were commonly conflated Why is one out in every other

753
00:43:53,639 --> 00:43:57,079
garden right? And the other is an avatar for like

754
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:02,679
social nonconformity in like post like COVID twenty twenty one

755
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:03,119
or whatever.

756
00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: I don't know.

757
00:44:05,039 --> 00:44:07,119
Speaker 3: I think those long term histories they can be frot

758
00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:09,199
but they're also I think pretty interesting.

759
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,599
Speaker 1: From from our perspective. In the in the paranormal supernatural

760
00:44:13,599 --> 00:44:20,840
realms and discussions, the gnomes are generally the red hats especially,

761
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:25,519
which are what people usually decorate their gardens with, usually

762
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,920
according to experiences that are that are claimed they hate people.

763
00:44:30,159 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 3: They hate us, yeah, the red caps, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,

764
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:38,000
yeah yeah. It's like a very common like oh, antagonizer, Yeah,

765
00:44:38,039 --> 00:44:40,079
they don't like us at all, them and punk wadgies.

766
00:44:40,559 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: Man, they just think that they don't have any time

767
00:44:43,039 --> 00:44:47,559
for us. So, I don't know, I guess we rub

768
00:44:47,599 --> 00:44:49,519
people wrong or something. Matt, I'm not sure.

769
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:51,039
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know.

770
00:44:51,199 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 3: I can see it that that was one of the

771
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,800
more interesting like in looking at like paganism, especially like

772
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,960
modern paganism, which is an attempt to kind of like

773
00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:03,679
go back to especially like pre Christian European times, Like

774
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,719
you see this real inversion of what had been happening

775
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,920
in centuries past, where like all these like educated guys

776
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:13,519
are saying, look at these superstitious rural people with their

777
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,559
fairy encounters. They know nothing, they don't have like the

778
00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:19,320
training we do. And what a lot of modern pagans

779
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,800
are saying is like wait, a second, like these people

780
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,719
were closer to the earth, they had a better understanding

781
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,719
of the world around us, and maybe we should take

782
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,119
their advice. And there's a lot to be said about

783
00:45:30,199 --> 00:45:32,800
like how pagan this is or how much it is

784
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,400
a reinvention of the nineteenth century and whatnot, but that

785
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,639
was a cool kind of like almost full circle moment

786
00:45:40,679 --> 00:45:42,840
for part of the history was to see the Goblin

787
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,840
seen as part of this group of nature spirit. Essentially,

788
00:45:46,039 --> 00:45:50,559
that represents a return to a oneness with the Earth

789
00:45:50,599 --> 00:45:53,599
that's been lost in a world of say like you know,

790
00:45:53,679 --> 00:45:57,079
industrial capitalism and things like that, you know, siloed in

791
00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:00,559
concrete jungles, right, a yearning to return back to the

792
00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:02,760
earth and to have that communing with nature.

793
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 1: That is fascinating too. And when you look through like

794
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:10,559
the Victorian occult revivals that were really big people going

795
00:46:10,599 --> 00:46:15,559
back to like seances and other occultic practices, and it

796
00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:19,960
was a big resurgence in Victorian lifestyle. So yeah, I mean,

797
00:46:20,159 --> 00:46:23,480
maybe we're maybe we're just on this treadmill that just

798
00:46:23,559 --> 00:46:24,199
keeps repeating.

799
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 3: Matt, Yeah, I mean it's attributed to Mark Twain, But

800
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,800
there's that quote, you know, history doesn't repeat itself, but

801
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,400
it echoes and I I yeah, yeah, I feel that

802
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:36,679
in my bones a lot of the time.

803
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,159
Speaker 1: So before we're done, I want you to take a

804
00:46:39,159 --> 00:46:41,800
moment and let people know how to stay in touch

805
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,400
with both what you're doing and where to find the books.

806
00:46:44,559 --> 00:46:46,400
And you know how to stay.

807
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,119
Speaker 2: In touch, okay, for sure.

808
00:46:48,199 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 3: So I mean my email is Matthew King one at

809
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,480
USF dot edu. If you just type in matt King

810
00:46:53,559 --> 00:46:56,559
Goblins you'll probably find me. But I'm I'm an associate

811
00:46:56,559 --> 00:46:58,760
president the University of South Florida and I have my

812
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:04,679
information available there. I am not one for social.

813
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 2: Media these days.

814
00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:08,639
Speaker 3: It's just it's too much and I'm trying to spend

815
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,719
less time on screens and more time outside though, as

816
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,440
you said, in Florida, it is not a good time

817
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,519
to be outside. So yeah, if anyone wants to get

818
00:47:18,519 --> 00:47:21,599
in contact, you know, my email is the best way.

819
00:47:22,119 --> 00:47:25,000
And yeah, no, I just really appreciate taking the time

820
00:47:25,039 --> 00:47:27,800
to chat with me. I know this is not my lane, right,

821
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,159
I know I'm entering into a different world, but I

822
00:47:30,199 --> 00:47:32,639
hope we both take something from each other in a

823
00:47:32,639 --> 00:47:33,599
conversation like this.

824
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm actually really pleased with the discussion because I

825
00:47:36,159 --> 00:47:39,880
think it's I think that it's important to acknowledge all

826
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,360
facets of this stuff, not just the parts that a

827
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:43,920
lot of us want to believe in. I mean, there's

828
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,239
there's there's an entomology to this, there's a there's the

829
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,840
information has traveled and how does it transform us and

830
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,480
our experiences. I think it's a very powerful aspect of this.

831
00:47:53,639 --> 00:47:55,920
So I think that's what you've really helped color in.

832
00:47:56,039 --> 00:47:57,480
But how did they find the book?

833
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,039
Speaker 3: If you type in a History of Goblins into Google,

834
00:48:01,079 --> 00:48:04,559
you can get it via Amazon. The publisher is Paul Grave,

835
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,480
and so it's just called The History of Goblins, released

836
00:48:08,519 --> 00:48:11,519
a few weeks ago, and so I think it's the

837
00:48:11,519 --> 00:48:12,239
only one called that.

838
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 2: I know it's the only one called that. So a

839
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,639
Google search we'll get you there.

840
00:48:17,199 --> 00:48:19,639
Speaker 1: Very good, sir, Well, I really appreciate you taking the time.

841
00:48:20,199 --> 00:48:23,679
I haven't really enjoyed our conversation. It's there's so much

842
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,159
unpacked with all of this stuff, but thank you for

843
00:48:26,199 --> 00:48:28,079
breaking it down for us as best as you can,

844
00:48:28,119 --> 00:48:30,360
and let me you know, if you ever got to

845
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,440
come back and tell us something new, let me know.

846
00:48:33,079 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Thanks for having me all.

847
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:59,559
Speaker 1: Right man, Thank you so much. All right, everybody, that's

848
00:48:59,599 --> 00:49:01,719
going to wrap it up for us today. So hope

849
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,159
you guys enjoyed the show, and thank you again so

850
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,400
much for all your love and support. And remember, if

851
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,679
you want to follow the Paranormal Portal, probably the easiest

852
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:13,920
way is to head over to Paranormalportal dot net and

853
00:49:14,039 --> 00:49:16,280
that's the homepage for the Paranormal Portal and you'll find

854
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:20,239
links to all of our different social media and sites

855
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,000
and information about the shows, including our YouTube channel which

856
00:49:24,079 --> 00:49:28,320
is YouTube dot com slash Paranormal Portal, or just look

857
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,880
for Paranormal Portal on Google or whatever search engine and

858
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:37,519
you'll find links to our social media such as Facebook, Instagram, TikTok,

859
00:49:38,119 --> 00:49:41,239
and Twitter. So we're kind of all over the place

860
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,199
and we're spreading as well as we can. But anyway,

861
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,719
thank you so much for the love and support you all.

862
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:49,880
Take care and remember we love you all. Be good,

863
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,880
be kind, be nice, take care of each other, help

864
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,199
each other out, find the magic and every day and

865
00:49:55,239 --> 00:51:05,519
remember to laugh as much as you can. Until next time, Bah,