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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. There was
Speaker 4: a time when New York City was dying a fast death.
Speaker 4: The slums were war zones, the government bankrupt and sputtering.
Speaker 4: Mobsters disassembled one another nightly and dropped hefty bags of
Speaker 4: mixed parts off the carnesi. Peer gangs rumbled in the
Speaker 4: city's playgrounds and ghost towns, each battle busted up by
Speaker 4: the sound of gunfire or police siren. Co Eds were
Speaker 4: raped and sent home shattered. Wide swaths of real estate
Speaker 4: former ghettos were abandoned and left to the squatters. Times Square,
Speaker 4: once seemingly the center of the universe, had sunk into
Speaker 4: an odorous septic tank, a choice of porn loops in
Speaker 4: a booth of somdulant live sex shows continuous New York
Speaker 4: had crumbled into a city of ancient ruins. When city
Speaker 4: tough blades of sharp breasts poked through each crack in
Speaker 4: a pavement. A city undergoing a so called fiscal crisis,
Speaker 4: but more a crisis of the soul. A city of
Speaker 4: routine muggings, vacant lots turned dump sight parked, and abandoned
Speaker 4: roads to nowhere. A city that President Gerald Ford told
Speaker 4: to drop dead. A city in which four murders a
Speaker 4: night was the norm. A city of scary shadows, vacant lots,
Speaker 4: sewer gas from a cracked manhole, a stinging rain of
Speaker 4: rust from tenement fire escapes where pedestrians routinely dodged bell
Speaker 4: Bottom angel dust, time bombs, where young savage baby boomers
Speaker 4: washed down black beauties with Ryan bowled out of a can.
Speaker 4: Where each glance into the shadows was an assault upon
Speaker 4: civilized sensibilities. A derelict big apple, rotten at the core,
Speaker 4: with no signs of hope. In the South Bronx ten
Speaker 4: square blocks per year, five thousand housing units were lost
Speaker 4: to arson. Owners abandoned properties rather than pay the tax,
Speaker 4: often torching them at night to collect insurance, leaving block
Speaker 4: after block of charred hulks forward Apache. They called it
Speaker 4: after the old Western movie where it looked like the
Speaker 4: bomb had gone off, nothing but steamy, bricked streets and
Speaker 4: smoldering rubble. It was a ghost town inhabited only by
Speaker 4: clawnleishly uniformed soldiers of vague cause, who moved like insects,
Speaker 4: who fought for worthless turf and and dignity through the
Speaker 4: smoke of despair.
Speaker 5: And for a year. Scariest of all, it was the
Speaker 5: city of Son of Sam, a terrifying specter of sadism
Speaker 5: and ritualistic blood sacrifice. The book that we're featuring this
Speaker 5: evening is The Wicked King Wicker, The Son of Sam
Speaker 5: Siege upon New York with my special guest journalist and
Speaker 5: author Michael Benson. Welcome to the program, and thank you
Speaker 5: so much for this interview. Michael Benson.
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me, Dan, Thank you so much.
Speaker 5: Michael, did this incredible introduction that you've written so eloquently,
Speaker 5: tell us a little bit more about before we start
Speaker 5: about the siege that Son of Sam put upon New
Speaker 5: York City, Just tell us where New York City was
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy six.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, not only was the son of Sam,
Speaker 6: the most infamous serial murder case in New York history.
Speaker 6: But it happened against a backdrop of a city that
Speaker 6: seemed to be at death's door. New York was in
Speaker 6: bad shape. He was kind of a smoldering ruins. I'm
Speaker 6: not really an expert in why it was that way,
Speaker 6: but it did come back. We recovered. But in nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy six and seventy seven it was a place to leave.
Speaker 6: And I know because I was going to school at
Speaker 6: the time on Long Island and I used to go
Speaker 6: into the city all the time, and that a lot
Speaker 6: of times it was just terrifying. You could you're afraid
Speaker 6: to go down a street for fear that somebody would
Speaker 6: jump you. A crime was out of control. Part of it,
Speaker 6: I think had to do with the fact that the
Speaker 6: baby Bloomer generation was in its late teens and early
Speaker 6: twenties at that time, so people in there at the
Speaker 6: rowdiest and most to commit crimes were plentiful. Also, the
Speaker 6: mafia was having wars. They were knocking each other off
Speaker 6: every night. There was gunfire in the streets. And considering
Speaker 6: the fact that between July of nineteen seventy six and
Speaker 6: July nineteen seventy seven, there were maybe fifteen hundred murders
Speaker 6: in New York City. The Son of Sam committed six murders,
Speaker 6: wounded seven in eight attacks. And yet the Son of Sam,
Speaker 6: and I will sometimes referred to him as he, although
Speaker 6: it's a day, was on the front pages of the
Speaker 6: newspapers for much of that time. And that's because although
Speaker 6: there were many places in New York City that were
Speaker 6: considered to be highly dangerous at that time, the Sun
Speaker 6: of Sam attacks occurred only in the pockets of perceived safety.
Speaker 6: Son of Sam made everyone, even the beautiful kids of
Speaker 6: successful parents, feel like targets, and kids who were used
Speaker 6: to doing pretty much what they pleased when they pleased,
Speaker 6: all of a sudden realized that the boogeyman was real
Speaker 6: and he was going to get them if they didn't
Speaker 6: look out. I've always felt the close association with these crimes.
Speaker 6: Like I said, I went to Hofst University at that time,
Speaker 6: I was only six miles away from the closest Son
Speaker 6: of Sam shooting in Bordo Park. And for the kids
Speaker 6: my age in New York City, the summer of nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy seven was a wasted summer. Everyone in the Bronx
Speaker 6: and Queens and later in Brooklyn were afraid to go
Speaker 6: out because there was a psycho out there shooting kids.
Speaker 5: Now before I know, there was so much trouble in
Speaker 5: New York. But teenagers feel invincible, so and then they
Speaker 5: carry on with their lives despite the crisises and havoc
Speaker 5: and chaos of the streets and the city that they
Speaker 5: lived in. On July twenty ninth, nineteen seventy six, teenageers
Speaker 5: Donna Lauria and their friend Jody Valente nineteen. Donna was eighteen.
Speaker 5: They had gone out dancing and they were in Jody's
Speaker 5: They had boriled Jody's car. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about what happens in the car at the end of
Speaker 5: this evening on Burer Avenue.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, they're parked outside Donna's apartment building. Jody was
Speaker 6: right around the corner, and they've coming home after a
Speaker 6: night of dancing at a discotheque up in Westchester County
Speaker 6: where it's safe. And they're in the West Sister Heights,
Speaker 6: Pelham Bay section of the Bronx where it's safe, and
Speaker 6: they're just having a little chat. Was in the radio
Speaker 6: before Donnah goes home and Donna's dad is on his
Speaker 6: way down the stairs with their dogs and take the
Speaker 6: dog for a walk, no problem because the streets are
Speaker 6: safe in that section. And Donna opens the door to
Speaker 6: go in, and she sees a man approaching, and she goes, Oh,
Speaker 6: what the heck is this? And she slams the door
Speaker 6: and gets bagging off back inside the car, and then
Speaker 6: a gunman fires four shots through the passenger side window,
Speaker 6: strikes Donna in the right temple, killing her instantly, and
Speaker 6: shoots Jody in the thigh. Jody gets out of the
Speaker 6: car and starts screaming. She opens the passenger side door
Speaker 6: and Donnah falls out of the car, And this happens
Speaker 6: just as Donna's dad emerges from the front door of
Speaker 6: the apartment building, and he immediately recognizes what he's seeing
Speaker 6: and bursts into tears. Jody describes the shooter as five nine,
Speaker 6: about one hundred sixty pounds, with curly black hair, clean shaven,
Speaker 6: fair complexion, wearing a white striped polo shirt, black or
Speaker 6: dark pants. Could not have looked any more regular or
Speaker 6: less scary, but he had a scary gun. Police come in.
Speaker 6: They because Donna and Jody are Italian girls, they assumed
Speaker 6: that this is part of a mafia vendetta, and that
Speaker 6: just really steams Donna's dead because there's nothing to do
Speaker 6: with organized crime. Yea profiling at its worst. And the
Speaker 6: most unusual thing about the murder is that, unlike the
Speaker 6: pocket guns that mobsters use, the bullets are forty four
Speaker 6: caliber and that is very rare.
Speaker 5: There was also dead.
Speaker 6: Did you throw something in here? About a year before that,
Speaker 6: there was another series of crimes up in Westchester County
Speaker 6: in which somebody was using an air gun to fire
Speaker 6: steel tipped feather ended darts through ground floor windows at women,
Speaker 6: and he was aiming high, maybe for the eyes, and
Speaker 6: there were women wounded in many towns in Westchester, including Yankers.
Speaker 6: New York. An expert said that the shooter was probably
Speaker 6: a peeping tom of voyeur who was taking his sickness
Speaker 6: to the next level. They called him dart Man. It's
Speaker 6: interesting here because soon after the dart Man attacks stop,
Speaker 6: the Son of Sam attacks begin.
Speaker 5: You right about that, there was a composite developed from
Speaker 5: this eyewitness account that you mentioned the five foot, nine
Speaker 5: hundred and sixty pounds, and then on October fourth, nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy six, there's a Molotov cocktail thrown through the window
Speaker 5: of the car family home. Tell us about right this event.
Speaker 6: Well, at the time, there is no way to make
Speaker 6: a connection between the two things. But right there is
Speaker 6: in Yonkers, in a stretch of streets that include Wicker
Speaker 6: Street and Warburton the Street, the home of Sam Carr,
Speaker 6: who has three kids, John, Michael, and Wheat, and somebody
Speaker 6: throws a mile off cocktail at their house. Time the
Speaker 6: fire department arrives, Sam's put the fire out. Not a
Speaker 6: major deal, but it's the it's the first indication that
Speaker 6: the Car family is the subject of some kind of
Speaker 6: psycho out there. There's another house is also there's an
Speaker 6: attempted arson. You're on an apartment in a large apartment
Speaker 6: building in Yonkers as a fire started just outside the door.
Speaker 6: So there's firebug going on. And also you know somebody's
Speaker 6: out there shooting dogs. So there's trouble in Yonkers, and
Speaker 6: there are weird attacks starting up in New York. But
Speaker 6: nobody's going to make that connection for quite a while yet.
Speaker 5: As you do to October twenty third, shortly after nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy six, and Carl Denaro and yes, and so the second.
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, go ahead, go ahead. This is the attack
Speaker 6: that is talked about the least, you know, it's not
Speaker 6: the first one, and nobody's killed and the wounded person
Speaker 6: is mail, so journalists didn't quite pick up on it
Speaker 6: the way they did the other. But it was Yeah.
Speaker 6: Two thirty am, October twenty third, nineteen seventy six. Carl
Speaker 6: de Naro and Rosemary Keenan. They're not boyfriend and girlfriend,
Speaker 6: but they had gotten together at a bar earlier in
Speaker 6: the night. Carl had just enlisted and he was had
Speaker 6: long brown hair. Rosemary is the daughter of a police detective,
Speaker 6: and they're sitting in a Volkswagen Beetle parked on a
Speaker 6: residential street in the murray Hill section of Queens sometimes
Speaker 6: referred to as Easternmost Flushing, but it's murray Hill. Rosemary,
Speaker 6: for reasons that probably don't matter to us, is sitting
Speaker 6: behind the wheel and Carl is in the passenger seat,
Speaker 6: even though he's thee who borrowed the car. And at
Speaker 6: two thirty am, passenger side window explodes and Carl is
Speaker 6: shot in the head. Rosemary is unharmed. She managed to
Speaker 6: get the car in gear despite you know, must must
Speaker 6: been panic and drives back to the bar that the
Speaker 6: two had just left, and Carl's taken the Flushing hospital
Speaker 6: where he has to stay for a month. They put
Speaker 6: a plate in his head and the bullets are forty
Speaker 6: four caliber. Nobody makes any connection between this attack and
Speaker 6: the one in the Bronx. They're miles apart, right, And
Speaker 6: person who takes the most interest, of course, is Detective
Speaker 6: Red Keenan, whose daughter was in a car that was
Speaker 6: shot at. And you know, nobody's saying anything about the
Speaker 6: mafia this time, but later on it would be assumed
Speaker 6: that the shooter at dark at night, when the fellow
Speaker 6: with long dark hair thought that he was shooting a girl,
Speaker 6: when he was shooting a guy.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 6: But you know, Carl's still around, and he's a good guy.
Speaker 6: But he never did get to serve in the military
Speaker 6: because he was shot in the head instead. This is
Speaker 6: bad luck. And he never, you know, never got together
Speaker 6: with Rosemary, even though they were sort of hitting it
Speaker 6: off that night.
Speaker 5: Now you're right. About four weeks later, in Queens, November
Speaker 5: twenty seventh, Joanne Lomino and Donna Demassi. Joanne's eighteen and
Speaker 5: Demassi is sixteen, and they go to a movie and
Speaker 5: they're taking a bus home and then they spot a
Speaker 5: creepy looking guy. Tell us about this.
Speaker 6: Well, they're so far out in Queens that it's a
Speaker 6: block and a half away from the Nassau County border.
Speaker 6: It's just barely inside New York City and you have
Speaker 6: to go to the end of the subway and then
Speaker 6: catch a bus to their neighborhood, Floral Park. It's close
Speaker 6: to where Belmont Park is where they hold the Belmont
Speaker 6: Stake's horse race. And November twenty seventh, it is Thanksgiving weekend.
Speaker 6: You know, I say that, You know it was only
Speaker 6: six miles away at the time, but I probably was.
Speaker 6: It was probably up in Rochester home for the holiday, right,
Speaker 6: And they got back from the movies and they're walking
Speaker 6: from the bus stop and they see a man hiding
Speaker 6: behind a telephone poll which is both terrifying and ridiculous
Speaker 6: because you can see him sticking out the sides it.
Speaker 6: You know, it's it's almost comical, but why is it
Speaker 6: the bizarre behavior and that translates into fear. So the
Speaker 6: girls hurry home and they are right in front of
Speaker 6: Joanne's house when they see the guy walking on the
Speaker 6: other side of the street and he's slender. It's a
Speaker 6: skinny guy, one hundred and fifty pounds soaking wet, five
Speaker 6: eight with his dirty blonde hair long parted on the side,
Speaker 6: and older is between twenty five and thirty years old.
Speaker 6: It's not a kid. This is a man wearing a
Speaker 6: brown three quarter length coat over what appears to be
Speaker 6: army fatigues. Now they stop in front of the house,
Speaker 6: and then Joann doesn't want to go in because she
Speaker 6: doesn't want the guy to know where she lives, so
Speaker 6: that there's they're pausing there in front of the house
Speaker 6: and he crosses the street and he starts to say
Speaker 6: something which they interpret as do you know where? And
Speaker 6: then he starts to mumble. They back away from him,
Speaker 6: and they're now up on the porch of Joan's house
Speaker 6: when he pulls a gun and fires wildly. He hits
Speaker 6: them both, but one shot hits the house. It's a
Speaker 6: bizarre miss, and a forty four has quite a kick,
Speaker 6: so it's not unusual for it to be less than accurate.
Speaker 6: But I mean horrible things, you know. The donna's shot
Speaker 6: in the neck and Joanne is shot in the spine
Speaker 6: and is paralyzed. From the waist down to this day.
Speaker 6: The shooter is seen fleeing holding a gun in his
Speaker 6: left hand again by witnesses. Long light colored hair and
Speaker 6: forty four shellcas things are found at the crime scene.
Speaker 6: So police are starting to make the connection now that
Speaker 6: perhaps these are connected shootings, but they haven't released any
Speaker 6: information to that effect to the public yet. After the
Speaker 6: next shooting, that's when there would really be no no
Speaker 6: holding it back anymore.
Speaker 5: Yeah, let's talk about Christine Frund January thirty, nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 5: twelve thirty am, and she's parked again. Similarly, she's parked
Speaker 5: with a boyfriend, John Deel. He's thirty years old and
Speaker 5: sadly they're planning to be engaged. February fourteenth, Valentine's Day.
Speaker 5: Tell us about this incident.
Speaker 6: If these aren't kids, these are young adults. Christine is
Speaker 6: a Wall Street secretary. John's thirty years old. They've been
Speaker 6: together for years and years. They've had their ups and
Speaker 6: downs in their relationship. They're in a nineteen seventy six
Speaker 6: blue Pontiac Firebird and they're parked in a little plaza
Speaker 6: fairly well lit underneath the Long Island Railroad station. And
Speaker 6: it's in Forest Hills, Queens, which at that time was
Speaker 6: known mostly for being the site of the US Open
Speaker 6: Tennis tournament. Away in this almost a fairyland neighborhood, all
Speaker 6: these Tudor style homes and tiny, curving, skinny roads, so
Speaker 6: they couldn't have felt more safe. And they'd just been
Speaker 6: to a wine and cheese place, and they're warming up
Speaker 6: the car before heading home and a shoot he approaches
Speaker 6: and fires through the passenger side window. Fires three times.
Speaker 6: Christine is struck twice, first in the shoulder and then
Speaker 6: just as she let out a short scream in the head,
Speaker 6: a third bullet ricochets off the windshield and John Deele
Speaker 6: is uninjured now for what seemed to him forever but
Speaker 6: probably only a matter of seconds. He tries to keep
Speaker 6: her sitting up in the seat because he thinks that
Speaker 6: that will help, and every time he lets go over,
Speaker 6: she falls over into his lap. He pushes her back up,
Speaker 6: and she falls into his lap again. Eventually he realizes
Speaker 6: this is not doing any good. He gets out of
Speaker 6: the car and starts to scream for help, and he
Speaker 6: sees a man standing there staring at him, seemingly relaxed,
Speaker 6: So help me, help me, And the man just turns
Speaker 6: around slowly and walks away. And John runs around the
Speaker 6: neighborhood chicken with his head cut off and screaming for help.
Speaker 6: He's diving on the hood of cars and nobody is stopping.
Speaker 6: Nobody wants to get involved, especially somebody inside a house.
Speaker 6: Here's the ruckus and calls for the police, and the
Speaker 6: police show up, and it's not that much time has
Speaker 6: gone by, but you know, to John, it just seems forever.
Speaker 6: He's been all around the neighborhood. And Captain Joseph Brelli,
Speaker 6: who's chief of the Queen's Homicide Squad, shows up, and
Speaker 6: he finds a slug at the scene that's only slightly deformed.
Speaker 6: And from this piece of metal, they could not just
Speaker 6: determine that the gun was a forty four, but that
Speaker 6: it was a Charter Arms Bulldog forty four, a fact
Speaker 6: that was not immediately released to the public. Now, the
Speaker 6: Bulldog forty four is pretty rare. At that time, there
Speaker 6: were only fifty six of them registered in the New
Speaker 6: York metropolitan area, and they were designed for a specific purpose.
Speaker 6: I don't know if you remember, but back in those days,
Speaker 6: there was a problem with skyjackings. People were hijacking commercial
Speaker 6: airplanes and having them fly to Cuba. So the gun
Speaker 6: was designed to shoot a hijacker without piercing the fuselage
Speaker 6: of the plane. So the bullet lost speed muzzle velocity
Speaker 6: very quickly and was wildly inaccurate at anything, you know,
Speaker 6: more than five feet. So now they know the weapon
Speaker 6: that's doing these shootings, But again they don't inform the public.
Speaker 6: They wait, They wait for one more shooting place a
Speaker 6: few weeks later, in March eighth, tenteen seventy, but only
Speaker 6: about one hundred yards away. And this one is different.
Speaker 6: It's seven point thirty in the evening on a Tuesday nights,
Speaker 6: not a weekends, not the middle of the night that
Speaker 6: the sun has just set. It's recently dark, and it's
Speaker 6: right around the corner from where Christine was murdered in
Speaker 6: the previous attack. Now I've walked this, I've gotten out
Speaker 6: of the subway where the victim got out and walked it.
Speaker 6: You walk right by where Christine was shot, through the
Speaker 6: well lighted plaza underneath the railroad station, and then you
Speaker 6: take a right hand turn onto Dartmouth Street and it
Speaker 6: is pitch black, and I can still remember the start
Speaker 6: of turning that corner and realizing that my eyes were
Speaker 6: going to have to dilate before I was gonna be
Speaker 6: able to see anything at all. And that's what Virginia
Speaker 6: of Oscar Ycian had just done. And she was a
Speaker 6: college girl, twenty years old, and she lived in Forest Hills,
Speaker 6: you know, one of the prettiest and most beautiful and
Speaker 6: certainly considered the safest neighborhood in all of New York City.
Speaker 6: And as she was walking down Dartneth Street, a small
Speaker 6: person gender uncertain thought you know, later described as a
Speaker 6: teenage boy but possibly a girl, walks right up to Virginia,
Speaker 6: sticks the gun at her. Virginia, who's carrying books because
Speaker 6: she's coming home from school, puts the books over her face.
Speaker 6: The shooter presses the gun against the books and pulls
Speaker 6: the trigger. One shot only through the books and through
Speaker 6: Virginia's mouth, and unfortunately, you know, through her brain, lodging
Speaker 6: near her spine, and she falls down across the sidewalk
Speaker 6: with her head awkwardly angled in a clump of bush
Speaker 6: is in front of for Dartmouth Street, and there are
Speaker 6: multiple witnesses. This is not a deserted area at seven
Speaker 6: thirty in the evening, and two distinctly different suspects are
Speaker 6: seen fleeing, and one is the young teenager teenage boy
Speaker 6: or girl in a dark ski cap sixteen to eighteen
Speaker 6: years old estimate and fleeing the scene running west. And
Speaker 6: running in the other direction is a white adult male
Speaker 6: twenty five to thirty years old, clean shaven, clear skinned,
Speaker 6: medium built five ten to six foot, well groomed, with
Speaker 6: dark hair combed straight back, which resembles the man seen
Speaker 6: at the first shooting by Jody Valenti. Now after this,
Speaker 6: there's really no secrets from the public anymore. The two shootings,
Speaker 6: you know, in closeness in time and geography, really I
Speaker 6: paste it up. There are one hundred yards apart. And
Speaker 6: on Thursday, March tenth, Mayor Abraham Beam, who's the mayor
Speaker 6: of this sinking ship, called New York City and Police
Speaker 6: Commissioner Michael cod decided they have to inform the public
Speaker 6: of what's going on. They hold a press conference at
Speaker 6: the Forest Hills Precinct station and they announced that the
Speaker 6: man who killed Virginia also killed Christine and also killed
Speaker 6: Donal Laurie in the Bronx previous summer. They said that
Speaker 6: the weapon was a Charter Arms Bulldog forty four and
Speaker 6: if anybody knew anyone that had such a weapon, please
Speaker 6: let them know. And then they did something that still
Speaker 6: strikes me as I because New York City does not
Speaker 6: have as many blonde people as the rest of the
Speaker 6: country or Canada, I suppose we are a dark haired
Speaker 6: people and we tend to be ethnic in New York.
Speaker 6: But they said that the killer seems to prefer girls
Speaker 6: with long, dark hair, and that the male victim also
Speaker 6: had long dark hair and was sitting in the passenger's
Speaker 6: seat and probably was mistaken for a girl. Now this
Speaker 6: is the first fuor this is just the beginning of
Speaker 6: the real craze. It's a forty four killer. He's known
Speaker 6: as He's going to be on the front page from
Speaker 6: now on. And beauty parlors are doing unbelievable business because
Speaker 6: every young woman in New York is getting her haircut
Speaker 6: and having a dyed blonde. As it turns out, you know,
Speaker 6: as we now know, Son and Sam didn't care what
Speaker 6: color your hair works.
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Speaker 5: Plus you talked about sorry, pardon me for that. You
Speaker 5: talked about Captain BURRELLI and Detective Gallagher. And now they're
Speaker 5: doing everything in their power to try to assemble a
Speaker 5: team and also create a psychological profile and do everything
Speaker 5: and they can to calm the public. Now that they
Speaker 5: have released certain information regarding this perpetrator, So what's the
Speaker 5: next step in terms of determining anything more about the suspect.
Speaker 5: It looks like they have descriptions from two or about
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Speaker 6: Well, you would you would think that's what they would think,
Speaker 6: but that's not That's not the way they look at it.
Speaker 6: And to be fair, it is often difficult after a
Speaker 6: shooting to determine the difference between high witnesses who are
Speaker 6: fleeing and the killer. I mean, unless you actually see
Speaker 6: the gun in their hand, they look the same. They're
Speaker 6: trying to get the heck away from there. I know,
Speaker 6: you know I wrote about the uh, the whacking of
Speaker 6: Albert Anastasia in a barbershop in New York City and
Speaker 6: the only reason, the only way they could tell who
Speaker 6: the shooters from the other people in the barbershop who
Speaker 6: were trying to get away, was which ones had the
Speaker 6: shaving cream on their face. So they're thinking that the
Speaker 6: adult man with the dark hair is the shooter and
Speaker 6: the shorter teenager is probably an eyewitness who is just
Speaker 6: trying to get away. And it's part of consolidated thinking.
Speaker 6: You know that they have one gun, there's one shooter,
Speaker 6: and the thought that this may be a pack of
Speaker 6: creepy kids, I mean, it doesn't occurs. It occurs to them,
Speaker 6: and certainly, you know, Detective Marlon Hopkins, you know, says
Speaker 6: it out loud because you know, this might be a
Speaker 6: bunch of kids passing a gun around. And but that
Speaker 6: kind of thinking is not encouraged because it tends to
Speaker 6: open doors when police like to closed doors. The problem
Speaker 6: with multi.
Speaker 5: Sorry you you talk about this new task force on
Speaker 5: Mega Group, uh and headed by Inspector to Timothy Dowd, Right,
Speaker 5: and this becomes this is Joe Burrelli's new boss. So
Speaker 5: what was this new approach with this team that they
Speaker 5: assemble called the Mega Group.
Speaker 6: Well, they they they've set what they thought were traps,
Speaker 6: I mean, especially after the next the next shooting, in
Speaker 6: which the son of sam Or returns to a neighborhood
Speaker 6: for the second time. They have geographical hotspots, and the
Speaker 6: second there's a shooting, the first cop to hear about
Speaker 6: it goes, you know, Code fort at which point the
Speaker 6: traps would close up, there would be roadblocks, there would
Speaker 6: be shutting down of the bridges. The idea is to
Speaker 6: trap the killer geographically and then close in on him.
Speaker 6: And you know, as we now know, it never works,
Speaker 6: and I mean it becomes the next shooting. We have
Speaker 6: two police officers who are watching the building in Pelham
Speaker 6: Bay section of the Bronx where Donal Laurie was killed
Speaker 6: previous July. And the shooting is around the corner on
Speaker 6: Hutchinson's of the Parkway more than hundred yards but by
Speaker 6: a bit, you no more than five hundred yards and
Speaker 6: it's only one turn. And again I've walked it and
Speaker 6: they were that close. Still they didn't catch the guy,
Speaker 6: so and it was very frustrating. And then the it's
Speaker 6: just eating cops alive. There is this forty four fatigue
Speaker 6: is already setting in. Guys aren't sleeping and the detectives
Speaker 6: hate these kind of cases. The victims don't deserve to
Speaker 6: be shot. You know, there's a certain comfort in covering
Speaker 6: like mob cases, where you know, a mobster from one
Speaker 6: family shoots a mobster from another family. As long as
Speaker 6: it's no collateral damage. We'll still try to figure out
Speaker 6: who's doing it, but we'll sleep at night. But I mean,
Speaker 6: you know, poor poor Joanne Romino who's in a wheelchair,
Speaker 6: trying to deal with the dad of Donal Lauria who's
Speaker 6: in her grave, and trying to apologize to her dad
Speaker 6: for thinking it was a mob thing when now they
Speaker 6: realize it's a psycho killer thing. But yeah, things been
Speaker 6: change is drastically in sineteen seventy seven, when the killer
Speaker 6: returns to the Bronx.
Speaker 5: With Valentina Serviani eighteen and Alexander Isau he's a twenty
Speaker 5: year old, and they're sitting in the car as well,
Speaker 5: and they're supposed to go to a movie that evening,
Speaker 5: And like you say, this is just a couple of
Speaker 5: blocks from where Dona Lauria was killed, So tell us
Speaker 5: about this evening.
Speaker 6: I don't know what they did, because this time the
Speaker 6: shooting is deadly accurate. It's three am, it's exactly a
Speaker 6: week after Easter They're sitting in a borrowed maroon colored
Speaker 6: Mercury Montigo beside a screen fence the service road that
Speaker 6: runs along the expressway, and Valentina's behind the wheel. The
Speaker 6: windows are all rolled up. It's a mild spring night
Speaker 6: like jacket weather. Killer approaches from the driver's side of
Speaker 6: the car and shoots from the driver's side window. Valentine
Speaker 6: is struck in the mouth a bullet that went through
Speaker 6: her neck and exited behind her right ear. Another bullet
Speaker 6: hit her behind her left ear and went through her
Speaker 6: brain and came to a rest against the inside of
Speaker 6: her skull near the base of her neck. She's killed instantly.
Speaker 6: Alexander is shot twice in the top of his head,
Speaker 6: and he's rendered unconscious by the shots, but he somehow
Speaker 6: clings to life. A neighbor recognizes the sound of gunfire
Speaker 6: and calls police. Alexander's rushed to the hospital and he
Speaker 6: dies a few hours later. And you know, we know
Speaker 6: that they plan to go to a movie and they
Speaker 6: plan to do this, but we we really don't know
Speaker 6: because there are no witnesses. But as they're investigating the
Speaker 6: crime scene on Hutchison Park Unison River Parkway, open the
Speaker 6: car door and an envelope falls out into the street,
Speaker 6: and inside the envelope is a letter and it's addressed
Speaker 6: to Captain Joseph BURRELLI, and it starts like this, I
Speaker 6: am deeply hurt by calling me a wee mown hater.
Speaker 6: That's w e m o n. It's woman misspelled to
Speaker 6: rhyme with demon. I am not, but I am a monster.
Speaker 6: I am the son of Sam. I am a little brack.
Speaker 6: When father Sam gets drunk, he gets mean, He beats
Speaker 6: his family. Sometimes he ties me up to the back
Speaker 6: of the house. Other times he locks me in the garage.
Speaker 6: Sam loves to drink blood, go out and kill a
Speaker 6: command's father Sam. Well, that's how it starts, and it
Speaker 6: continues in its creepy way, and the writer refers to
Speaker 6: himself in a number of ways. His little brat son
Speaker 6: of Sam beyels above mister monster, chubby behemoth. But the
Speaker 6: one that sticks, as we all know now, is son
Speaker 6: of Sam. And the letter ends I'll be back. I'll
Speaker 6: be back. Bang bang bang bang yours in murder, mister monster.
Speaker 5: Now that so what hits the pipers? Yeah? So what
Speaker 5: does what does the detective BURRELLO do? In terms of response.
Speaker 5: It goes to the newspaper.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, well, we want to help you. We understand
Speaker 6: you're sick. We know you don't hate women. And I
Speaker 6: read the response in the newspaper and I can just imagine,
Speaker 6: you know, the shooter's reaction to this. It's it seemed
Speaker 6: very insincere. You know, cops are not your friend, especially
Speaker 6: if you're a serial killer. But that was the route
Speaker 6: they took. And then things got worse because a couple
Speaker 6: of days later, Jimmy Breslin, who is the columnist for
Speaker 6: the New York Daily News, he gets a letter also
Speaker 6: from quote son of Sam unquote, and this one, you know,
Speaker 6: there's a lifelong writer. I just got to say, it's
Speaker 6: really well written. If you took it out of context,
Speaker 6: you could pass sit off as a poem by Allen Ginsburg,
Speaker 6: or lyrics by Bob Dylan or something ts Elliot's The Wasteland.
Speaker 6: And again, let me just read the beginning of it
Speaker 6: for you. It starts out, Hello from the gutters of
Speaker 6: New York City, which are filled with dog manure, vomit,
Speaker 6: stale wine, urine, and blood. Hello from the sewers of
Speaker 6: New York City, which swallow up these delicacies when they
Speaker 6: are washed away by the sweeper trucks. Glow from the
Speaker 6: cracks in the sidewalks of New York City and from
Speaker 6: the ants dwell in these cracks and feed in the
Speaker 6: dried blood of the dead that has settled into the cracks.
Speaker 6: Now again, the writer gives a series of things that
Speaker 6: he may be called, and they sort of it's almost
Speaker 6: a list that Sam's creation forty four, the do of Death,
Speaker 6: the title of this book, The Wicked King Wicker, the
Speaker 6: twenty two Disciples of Hell, which turns out to be
Speaker 6: a real thing. John Wheatie's rapist and suffocator of young girls,
Speaker 6: who turns out to be a real person. And then
Speaker 6: the the on the back of the envelope, there's like
Speaker 6: a little high coup and it goes blood and family,
Speaker 6: darkness and death, absolute depravity. Now, Holy count, I mean
Speaker 6: this letter because it's sent to a journalist, gets printed,
Speaker 6: you know, in its entirety in the newspaper, and that's it.
Speaker 6: It's just it. Everybody is terrified. Kids stop going out,
Speaker 6: especially kids in the Bronx and Queens. And then you
Speaker 6: know that the lure is still. There are still blondes
Speaker 6: who are saying, wow, he doesn't like my type. That's okay,
Speaker 6: But uh, there's it's a it's a city where the
Speaker 6: economy is already hanging on by a thread. And now
Speaker 6: nobody's going out at night. You know the places they
Speaker 6: we're doing okay business on the outer areas of the city,
Speaker 6: the discotheques and the bars, they're empty. You know, nobody's
Speaker 6: going out. They they're they're offering specials that they're uh
Speaker 6: offering valet parking if you if you're a woman and
Speaker 6: you want to go out, we're never going to allow
Speaker 6: you to be alone. You know, you don't have to
Speaker 6: walk from the parking lot to the bar. You'll be escorted.
Speaker 6: So it's I mean, it's it's it's amazing. And uh
Speaker 6: so by the time there the next shooting, Uh, we
Speaker 6: have a poor teenage girl who has just graduated from
Speaker 6: high school. She's got friends in Religi tives over to
Speaker 6: her house after the graduation ceremony who are afraid to
Speaker 6: go out, and she says, well, you know, darn you all,
Speaker 6: I'm going to go out because I just graduated and
Speaker 6: I'm going to party. And they said, don't do it.
Speaker 6: You know, the son of Sam's out there, said well,
Speaker 6: you know, I'll go to a place I'm familiar with,
Speaker 6: you know, in the place, the place that says they're
Speaker 6: going to keep me safe. But she didn't stay safe.
Speaker 5: You talk about Sal Lupo and Judy Placido.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, Judy, Judy's the girl is just disgusting. Sel
Speaker 6: Lupo is a fellow who's hanging out at the Lafos
Speaker 6: disco in Bayside. Now, after school, I I moved into
Speaker 6: an apartment in base Side. It was only about two
Speaker 6: blocks away from this scene. So it was the first
Speaker 6: Son of Sam scene that I ever investigated and walked
Speaker 6: off at that. I've done them all now, but only
Speaker 6: a couple of years after it happened. I was all
Speaker 6: over it. And the kids said that they met They
Speaker 6: had met once before at the elefice and she went
Speaker 6: there because she felt safe and Sal was there and
Speaker 6: she trusted Sam. Say said, hey, you know, don't worry
Speaker 6: about it. I'll give you a ride home. You're good
Speaker 6: with me. And at three ten am, he borrows the
Speaker 6: keys from the bouncer of the club. The guy runs,
Speaker 6: drives a Cadillac and takes her to the car. You know,
Speaker 6: just smooching make out a little bit before she goes home,
Speaker 6: and because he's unfamiliar with the car, he has to
Speaker 6: turn on the inside light to find the cigarette lighter.
Speaker 6: It's only on for a second, but they later think
Speaker 6: that's probably when they were spotted by the shooter, who
Speaker 6: creeps up on the car unnoticed and fires four shot
Speaker 6: some quick succession through the passenger side window. The first
Speaker 6: shot strikes Judy in the neck, the second grazes Judy
Speaker 6: in the head and fails to penetrate her skull, thank
Speaker 6: evans stopped behind her eyebrow, and a third shot struck
Speaker 6: Sail in the wrist and ended up embedded in the
Speaker 6: front seat cushion. A Sail's aware of pain in his
Speaker 6: arm and Judy's making a little whimpering noises in her throat,
Speaker 6: so Sall runs back to the club, which is a
Speaker 6: block and a half away, and Judy manages to get
Speaker 6: out of the car. Amazingly, she manages to get out
Speaker 6: of the car and stagger down the street. It's a
Speaker 6: light rain. She's standing down the street screaming before she
Speaker 6: collapses in the middle of the street, and sal and
Speaker 6: Judy are taken by amulance. To a Flushing hospital who're
Speaker 6: both are listed in fair condition, and one witness sees
Speaker 6: a stocky white male running south from the scene one
Speaker 6: two hundred and eleventh Street. Second witness sees a well
Speaker 6: dressed blonde with a mustache get into a yellow compact car,
Speaker 6: possibly as Chevy Nova, which then drives away with its
Speaker 6: headlights out. Police are also looking for a black haired
Speaker 6: man who annoyed Judy inside the club and was hurt,
Speaker 6: muttering that she was a snob. So now police Omega
Speaker 6: Force is looking for patterns and they hit on two.
Speaker 6: Valentina Siani was a graduate of Saint Catharine's where Judy
Speaker 6: Placido had just graduated from. Jody Valenti and Donna Lauria
Speaker 6: had also been out dancing in a discotheque the night
Speaker 6: they were shot, as were sal and Judy. All but
Speaker 6: two of the shootings occurred on the weekend, meant the
Speaker 6: killer probably had a job. All but one took place
Speaker 6: between midnight and three in the morning. Eight of the
Speaker 6: eleven shooting victims were women, and all the three of
Speaker 6: the victims were shot inside parked cars. Judy Placido in
Speaker 6: the shadow of a mental hospital and that pushed the
Speaker 6: buttons of several detectives who were convinced that some lunatic
Speaker 6: had been looking out the window and it'd seen Judy
Speaker 6: Preps sunbathing down below and had become fixated with her.
Speaker 6: And of course twice now the killers had returned to
Speaker 6: the same neighborhood, Forest Hills and Pelham Bay in the Bronx. So,
Speaker 6: I mean, the next thing that happens in New York,
Speaker 6: it doesn't anything to do with shooting. On July fourteenth,
Speaker 6: during a heat wave, nine thirty four pm, the lights
Speaker 6: go out. There's a blackout in New York City. And
Speaker 6: there had been a blackout in nineteen sixty five in
Speaker 6: New York which was remembered nostalgically. People made friends, they
Speaker 6: drank and candle at bars. It became a symbol of
Speaker 6: New York's resiliency. There was a movie in a book
Speaker 6: called Where Were You? And the Lights Went Out? But
Speaker 6: this seventy seven blackout wasn't like that at all. It's
Speaker 6: more like pouring gasoline on the fire. More than sixteen
Speaker 6: hundred stores were looted, thirty seven fires were set, seventeen
Speaker 6: hundred false alarms were called in thousands were arrested. Cops
Speaker 6: called it the Night of the animals. Many New Yorkers
Speaker 6: remembered a time when they were proud of being a
Speaker 6: New Yorker because New York was smart and strong overcame hardship.
Speaker 6: But this behavior was the sign of a city of
Speaker 6: bad character, a town with a personality disorder. You know,
Speaker 6: the lower class, normally powerless, saw a way to seize
Speaker 6: power in the dark, and chaos reigned. But as far
Speaker 6: as we know, during all of that madness, the son
Speaker 6: of Sam stayed inside. There was only one attack left.
Speaker 6: And because of what he had written in the Jimmy
Speaker 6: Breslam letter, what are you going to have for for
Speaker 6: July twenty ninth. Yeah, they were convinced. The police were
Speaker 6: convinced that the first anniversary of the Donald Laurie Joey
Speaker 6: Balenti shootings was going to be a knight that he
Speaker 6: would attack. And they they were out. You know, nobody,
Speaker 6: nobody had the night off. Every cop in New York
Speaker 6: was out, and they were concentrating on the areas where
Speaker 6: they thought that they most likely to hit, and in
Speaker 6: that way didn't happen until the next night. You know,
Speaker 6: the Omega had been covering the Bronx and Queens that
Speaker 6: their traps were set. You know, the ready to shout
Speaker 6: code forty four. There's no way he can get away
Speaker 6: this time. Well, it turned out all this it's not
Speaker 6: the same had a dude to get away with it.
Speaker 6: This time was to switch burrows and the next shooting
Speaker 6: occurred in the Bath Beach section of Brooklyn, South Brooklyn,
Speaker 6: fifteen miles from the nearest other attack. I'm the closest
Speaker 6: one to where I live now. I walk by there
Speaker 6: all the time. The location was a lover's lane with
Speaker 6: the Belt Parkway on one side in a playground.
Speaker 5: On the other. Let's just say there's an opportunity to
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Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 5: We talked about Jimmy Breslin, and we talked about the
Speaker 5: letters that he was receiving and the what many people
Speaker 5: thought was a sort of a was a challenge for
Speaker 5: son of Sam to do something, to come to come
Speaker 5: to fruition, the things that he had said. So you
Speaker 5: talk about this last attack, and of course the police
Speaker 5: were with their trap. It wasn't effective whatsoever. So what
Speaker 5: is the next move for Jimmy Breslin and police.
Speaker 6: Well, the last attack is the shooting of Robert Violente
Speaker 6: and Stacey Moscowitz. They're both twenty years old. They're on
Speaker 6: their first date. They went to a movie, to a
Speaker 6: disco and Bay Ridge, it's another section of Brooklyn, and
Speaker 6: then to park. The parking area was right next to
Speaker 6: a playground. Stay said, let's play on the swings for
Speaker 6: a little while, and they do, and there was also
Speaker 6: there's an arcing walking bridge that goes over the expressway
Speaker 6: and to a bike path right along New York Bay,
Speaker 6: the beautiful view of if. There's Coney Island on the
Speaker 6: left and the Verrizanto Bridge on the right. So it's
Speaker 6: pretty little area. But while they're playing on the swings,
Speaker 6: they walk right past a creepy guy who's sort of
Speaker 6: hanging out. He's leaning against the building that has the
Speaker 6: restrooms with his arms folded on his chest. It's hard
Speaker 6: to say exactly what made him so creepy. He was
Speaker 6: rough looking, he seemed weird, piercing, dark eyes, so un kempt, unshaven, grubby.
Speaker 6: He wore a blue shirt with the sleeves rolled up.
Speaker 6: It's a hot summer, so having your shirt sleeves rolled
Speaker 6: up is pretty normal. And Stacy says, that guy makes
Speaker 6: me nervous. So they go back to the car, and
Speaker 6: you know, they start to get to know each other better,
Speaker 6: and the shooter strikes at two thirty five am. It's
Speaker 6: July thirty first, I mean technically two nights after the
Speaker 6: first shooting, but really only one because it's after midnight,
Speaker 6: and fires four times at Robert and Stacy through the
Speaker 6: open passenger window of Robert's nineteen sixty nine four door
Speaker 6: Buick Skylock. Now the couple in the car in front
Speaker 6: of Violente's car, they're not getting along that night and
Speaker 6: have nothing better doing than to watch everybody else, so
Speaker 6: they see the shooting. They're watching when the shooting takes place,
Speaker 6: and they see the man crouching into a shooter's squat
Speaker 6: power shooters stands low center of gravity, balanced taking the
Speaker 6: bulldogs kick written the core, and after the shooting they
Speaker 6: saw the man flee. They described him as twenty five
Speaker 6: to thirty years old stocky last scene, calmly walking away
Speaker 6: from the scene, across the street and into the playground,
Speaker 6: where he disappeared. Now, Stacy is shot twice in the head.
Speaker 6: One bullet merely grazed her scalp, while the other entered
Speaker 6: the left side of her head, tore a path through
Speaker 6: her brain, and came to arrest at the base of
Speaker 6: her neck. Robert had been shot once, the bullet going
Speaker 6: through one eye and severely damaging the other. His ears
Speaker 6: were harmed by the explosive sound of the weapon, and
Speaker 6: for a time he could only hear a humming noise.
Speaker 6: Blacked out for a moment. They had no idea how long,
Speaker 6: but probably just a matter of seconds. He came to
Speaker 6: and he was blind, and he could tell that he
Speaker 6: was soaked in his own blood. And he knew he
Speaker 6: was conscious because he could here Stacy moaning. He reached
Speaker 6: with his hands and found the car horn, which he
Speaker 6: pressed and kept pressing and started yell, helped me, don't
Speaker 6: let me die. Robert had been blinded. Stacy lingered in
Speaker 6: the hospital for days before she died. Now, this is
Speaker 6: not a deserted area, it's you know, not as many
Speaker 6: people back then had air conditioning as they do now,
Speaker 6: and on a hot summer night, people stayed outside where
Speaker 6: there was at least a little bit of breeze. So
Speaker 6: I mean, the sounds of the horns and the screaming
Speaker 6: drew a crowd right away, and people ran to get towels.
Speaker 6: And you know, Robert's lying on his back next to
Speaker 6: the car and they're putting towels over his face. And
Speaker 6: a woman one street over earlier in the evening had
Speaker 6: watched as a man who didn't match the description of
Speaker 6: the man in the in the playground at all, who
Speaker 6: was wearing a denim jack with the sleeves rolled down
Speaker 6: hot attire for a night that hot and holding one
Speaker 6: arm stiff as if he was hiding something up his sleeve,
Speaker 6: walked by, and she watched as the guy's car was
Speaker 6: ticketed for parking too close to a fire hydrant, and
Speaker 6: the man walked over to the car, pulled the ticket
Speaker 6: out from underneath the wind show wiper, and threw it
Speaker 6: into the car and got into the car and drove off.
Speaker 6: So as it happened multiple times. Excuse me, there had
Speaker 6: been more than one suspect scene at the scene, and
Speaker 6: the blonde escaped in a yellow VW Volkswagon with its
Speaker 6: lights out, which makes me thinking maybe the same car
Speaker 6: as that the baside Queen's shooting were a yellow compact car.
Speaker 6: Maybe a Chevy Nova with its lights out was seen.
Speaker 6: Sounds like the same m Now yellow car is driving
Speaker 6: off with their lights out. Doesn't happen very often. And
Speaker 6: the husky man seen by the lady walking a dog
Speaker 6: gets into a for galaxy and because he's been ticketed.
Speaker 6: As we now know, the dark haired man was David Berkowitz.
Speaker 6: The identity of the blond man remains officially unknown, and
Speaker 6: assuming that Burkoitz was part of a gang of young
Speaker 6: people passing around to forty four, he was also the
Speaker 6: fall guy. He took the rap. He was arrested in
Speaker 6: possession of the forty four ballistically matched all the crimes.
Speaker 6: He did not implicate others in the crimes until after
Speaker 6: he was in prison for life. He took a crack
Speaker 6: at an infanity defense. He told police that a neighbor's dog,
Speaker 6: Sam Carr's dog Harvey, was ordering him to kill. Now
Speaker 6: David Burkoitz at once shot Sam Carr's dog Harvey. Harvey survived.
Speaker 6: His apartment was found bare and well graffeited, but Birkwood
Speaker 6: later said that he wrote crazy Things on the wall
Speaker 6: only shortly before he was arrested, and took a lot
Speaker 6: of his possessions to Goodwill so that it would look
Speaker 6: more like a crazy person's apartment, setting the groundwork for
Speaker 6: an insanity defense that he didn't end up using. And
Speaker 6: when crunch time came, he pleaded guilty to all of
Speaker 6: the Son of Sam attacks. Did a special courtroom set
Speaker 6: up with three judges at a king's county, Queen's county,
Speaker 6: and bronx judges so that they could take care of
Speaker 6: it all at once, and he was sentenced to many
Speaker 6: life sentences, and his guilty plea went against his defense
Speaker 6: team's wishes. They spent months trying to stabi plush a
Speaker 6: case that Burkwitz was insane, and at the last second
Speaker 6: Burkowitz pulls the rug out and pleads guilty. Now. He
Speaker 6: later says that he belongs to a Satanic cult and
Speaker 6: that he was only the shooter and three of the
Speaker 6: Son of Sam attacks. And on July tenth, nineteen seventy nine,
Speaker 6: little less than a year after the last Son of
Speaker 6: Sam attack, Berkowitz himself was attacked in his cell block,
Speaker 6: a cell block that was supposed to offer additional security
Speaker 6: for high risk inmates. The attacker, whom Burkewitz has refused
Speaker 6: the name, used a razor to cut the left side
Speaker 6: of Berkowitz's throat, a wound that required fifty six stitches
Speaker 6: to close. Now there wasn't already enough evidence of a
Speaker 6: conspiracy soon after his arrest, before the trials or anything.
Speaker 6: An employee of the MA Marineck Animal Hospital the MA
Speaker 6: marinaksa town in Westchester County north of Jonkers, where burkletsved,
Speaker 6: tells a reporter from the New York Daily News that
Speaker 6: on the day before burke Wit is arrested, he and
Speaker 6: another man come into her shelter, and the two men
Speaker 6: are clearly together because they're wearing matching yellow baseball caps
Speaker 6: with NAPA stitch across the front. Could have signified a
Speaker 6: place in California, could have been an autoparts store, but
Speaker 6: the matching hats, and they're both wearing matching jogging shoes,
Speaker 6: so they looked like a team. And they looked at
Speaker 6: a German shepherd that was available for adoption, and they
Speaker 6: talked about it for a little while. The guy who
Speaker 6: was with Berkowitz looked just like some of those Son
Speaker 6: of sam'sus big drawings that the dirty blonde hair parted
Speaker 6: on the side. Longish police refuse to speculate and assured
Speaker 6: the public that any and all friends of burkoitz Is
Speaker 6: were going to be thoroughly investigated. Well, you know that
Speaker 6: didn't happen. The NYPD was suffering not only from having
Speaker 6: to deal with a crime written in New York City,
Speaker 6: but from Son of Sam burnout. I mean, they were
Speaker 6: just suffering from battle fatigue. There were cops that felt
Speaker 6: like they hadn't slept during the entire year of the
Speaker 6: Son of Sam siege, and the last thing they wanted
Speaker 6: to do was investigate all of Burkwood's friend. Burkewitz had
Speaker 6: the murder weapon for all of the crimes in his possession.
Speaker 6: When he was caught, he confessed all of the crimes.
Speaker 6: Case closed. Now. The employee at the animal house recalled
Speaker 6: that the man with Burkowitz did all the talking, that
Speaker 6: Berkelets just seemed like a big doofy guy and stood
Speaker 6: there in grinned stroking the dog while his friend talked.
Speaker 6: And when the friend found out that there was a
Speaker 6: background check involved. Before you could adopt a dog. They said, well,
Speaker 6: I'll have to think about it and left. This is
Speaker 6: even more interesting because bad things are happening to dogs.
Speaker 6: I mean a dog featured in Burke Woz's attempt to
Speaker 6: create an insanity offense. He'd shot at least two dogs
Speaker 6: in additions to the young people of New York. He
Speaker 6: shot the other dog he killed. It was born to
Speaker 6: the Nedo family and they lived on Wicker Street, a
Speaker 6: Wicked King Wicker good name for a book. And that
Speaker 6: was right around the corner from the carhouse where when
Speaker 6: the dog Harvey was shot and wounded. Now there is
Speaker 6: evidence that a systemic campaign against dogs is going on
Speaker 6: in Orange County, which is the county on the other
Speaker 6: side of the Hudson River. At the time of the
Speaker 6: Son of Samitex in the walled in New York Area
Speaker 6: eighty five. Again, the German shepherds and Doberman's are discovered
Speaker 6: between October nineteen seventy six and October nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 6: Now, despite the evidence of conspiracy, you know, the NYPD
Speaker 6: has done. Abraham Beam is running for reelection. He's going
Speaker 6: to celebrate that. He's you know, was around for the
Speaker 6: solving of the Son of Sam case. The cops are
Speaker 6: doing a victory laugh. There's no conspiracy. Leave us alone.
Speaker 6: And that might have been where the story would have
Speaker 6: ended if it hadn't been or a journalist by the
Speaker 6: name of Maury Terry.
Speaker 5: What's Maury Terry's background before this? What's his journalistic background.
Speaker 6: Well, he's an investigative journalist. He was employed and bopped
Speaker 6: from story. His story to say when he gets when
Speaker 6: he gets on this case, he really gets devoured by it.
Speaker 6: He he spends pretty much the rest of his life
Speaker 6: investigating the Son of Sam conspiracy and does some tremendous work.
Speaker 6: I mean.
Speaker 5: One of the things does he find out what does
Speaker 5: he find out about John Carr? We mentioned John Carr earlier.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the Well, first of all, he's impressed by the
Speaker 6: number of eyewitnesses that said Burke Wits was not the
Speaker 6: shooter at a particular crime scene, including the last one.
Speaker 6: You know, Tommy Zayino is with his girlfriend parked in
Speaker 6: the car right in front of Violente and Moscowitz's car
Speaker 6: and sees sees the killer aiming the gun, firing the
Speaker 6: gun is not what it wasn't David Berkowy. The other
Speaker 6: thing that troubles. Mary Terry is that Berkowitz who's assumed
Speaker 6: by just about everyone to be lumoney Tunes. They claimed
Speaker 6: to base his entire persona on a neighbor named Sam Carr,
Speaker 6: who's an old man that he'd never met. And the
Speaker 6: first letter in particular, you know, I'm locked into the
Speaker 6: attic by my father Sam. I'm you know, my father
Speaker 6: Sam drinks blood. He needs to have sacrifice, but you
Speaker 6: know Sam is basically Satan mm hm. So so he
Speaker 6: decides to look more into the car family and he
Speaker 6: finds that well, first of all, you can see the
Speaker 6: cars home from Burgoitz's apartment window. And uh, Sam's daughter Wheat,
Speaker 6: she'd already showed up in the story at the Younker's
Speaker 6: police dispatcher she was. She was the youngres police to
Speaker 6: dispatcher who took the n y call after Burkowitz's galaxy
Speaker 6: was ticketed. Cop called and said, we're interested in a
Speaker 6: guy named David Burklett's and she says, hey, that's the
Speaker 6: guy we think shot our dog. He shot our dog
Speaker 6: with a forty four caliber weapon, which turned out not
Speaker 6: to be true. So it's interesting that she made that mistake.
Speaker 6: But she was putting together Son of Sam with David
Speaker 6: Burkoitz before the New York Police Department was now Terry
Speaker 6: found out that wheat had two brothers, John and Michael.
Speaker 6: John had been in the Air Force. Michael was a
Speaker 6: freelance advertising stylist. John Terry couldn't help, but notice had been,
Speaker 6: at the time of the Son of Sam shootings, a
Speaker 6: hippie type with stringy, dirty blonde hair. It got better.
Speaker 6: John and Michael, who are actual sons of Sam by
Speaker 6: all accounts, you know, didn't care for their father. And
Speaker 6: John's nickname was Wheaty's John Wheaty's, as mentioned in the
Speaker 6: in the Jimmy Breadwane letter. Now it's odd to have
Speaker 6: a nickname that mimics your sister's actual name. His sister's
Speaker 6: name is wheat and he's John Wheaty's. Yeah, I have
Speaker 6: no explanation for that. But John Wheaties is named in
Speaker 6: the letter. It's his actual nickname. So it's got confirmation
Speaker 6: that Burkwitz doesn't just know of John Carr. He knows
Speaker 6: John Carr, he knows his nickname. Terry noted that killing
Speaker 6: animals was known to provide the blood letting its satanic
Speaker 6: masses and that there was satanic symbolism mixed into the
Speaker 6: Son of Sam letters, as well as some of the
Speaker 6: locations of the shootings. The Lfas Disco in particular, had
Speaker 6: Burkewit's a part of a satanic cult. Well, there was
Speaker 6: more evidence that he had been. A tour of Untermeyer Park,
Speaker 6: in the northern section of Yonkers, where Brooklets lived in
Speaker 6: Westaster County, revealed graffiti indicating that it hosted satanic rituals.
Speaker 6: There were animal carcasses found in that area, upside down crosses,
Speaker 6: pentagrams had been spray painted onto concrete surfaces there. So
Speaker 6: Terry investigates John Carr. Next stop, let's talk to John
Speaker 6: Wheaty's because it's starting to look like you might be
Speaker 6: onto something here now. Unfortunately, for his investigation by the
Speaker 6: time and it's it's autumn of nineteen seventy eight at
Speaker 6: this point. By the time he starts looking for John Wheaty's,
Speaker 6: John Wheedy's is dead. Finds out that from nineteen seventy
Speaker 6: two to seventy six, John Carr was stationed in North Dakota.
Speaker 6: In nineteen seventy six, the year that the Son of
Speaker 6: Sam attacks began, John Carr was discharged from the Air Force,
Speaker 6: allegedly because of drug addiction. He was said to have
Speaker 6: been in New York for many of the Son of
Speaker 6: Sam attacks and greatly resembled the hippie with stringy hair
Speaker 6: seen at some of the attacks. And he's thirty years
Speaker 6: old at this point, which would also fit in with
Speaker 6: the description we're not dealing with a kid. In January
Speaker 6: nineteen seventy eight, he called his girlfriend in North Dakota,
Speaker 6: complaining that the police were after him, although he didn't
Speaker 6: say why, and as far as we know, the police
Speaker 6: were not after him, so why was he feeling paranoid?
Speaker 6: In the fall of nineteen seventy eight, just around the
Speaker 6: time when Maury Terry decides to go looking for him,
Speaker 6: he returns to North Dakota and he's only there for
Speaker 6: two days when he's found shot in the head and
Speaker 6: written near the body was in blood was sixt' six'
Speaker 6: Six member of The beast and SS, nyc which could
Speaker 6: have Meant son Of Sam New York. City now the
Speaker 6: SS nyc is written on the wall and the sixty
Speaker 6: six six is written On John carr's. Hand now the
Speaker 6: death has ruled a, suicide which leaves open the question
Speaker 6: of who wrote the messages in his, blood but, which,
Speaker 6: however that. Happened John carr has met his end And
Speaker 6: terry is now convinced That berkleitz And John carr were
Speaker 6: part of A satanic cult that had read The satanic
Speaker 6: teachings of devil Worshiper Alister. Crowley So cherry turns his
Speaker 6: attention To Michael. Carr he learned that in nineteen seventy,
Speaker 6: five the year before the sam shooting, started While burkoitz
Speaker 6: was just Before burkewitz moved to the apartment house that
Speaker 6: looked down in the car, house is living in an
Speaker 6: apartment On Barnes. Avenue in The, bronx he Met Michael,
Speaker 6: carr and he's got corroboration for, this And Michael carr
Speaker 6: is known as an occult obsessed drug, addt A satan.
Speaker 6: Worshiper Michael carr Invites burkowitz to a party Where burkwitz
Speaker 6: meets members of a witch's, coven one to Which Michael
Speaker 6: carr belongs apparently considers himself a. Warlock and these were
Speaker 6: the twenty two disciples Of hell referred to in The breslen. Letter,
Speaker 6: again you have human intelligence matching up with things that
Speaker 6: are written in the letters by The son Of, sam
Speaker 6: and we're heading down the rabbit. Hole. Now terry comes
Speaker 6: to believe that it's because Of burkewitz's friendship With Michael
Speaker 6: carr that he moves to an apartment only two hundred
Speaker 6: yards from the car home in The. Yarkers terry's next
Speaker 6: order of business is to Interview Michael, carr but again
Speaker 6: he's too. Late On october, fourth nineteen seventy, Nine Michael
Speaker 6: carr is killed in a one car accident when he
Speaker 6: hit a street lamp at seventy five miles per. Hour
Speaker 6: there are no skid, marks And michael's Sister, wheat insists
Speaker 6: that he was killed that he was run off the
Speaker 6: road by another car that's. Ciar from, There terry's conspiracy
Speaker 6: theory becomes. Expansive he goes goes coast to, coast includes
Speaker 6: affiliations with long standing and well funded organization such as
Speaker 6: The Processed, church which is a spinoff Of scientology and
Speaker 6: it includes among its Members Bruce, davis who is still
Speaker 6: in prison for Killing Gary hinman as part of The manson. Family,
Speaker 6: right and that The son Of sam killings were not
Speaker 6: just the serial killer out doing his. Thing but they
Speaker 6: were a terror campaign designed to bring about a social,
Speaker 6: armageddon and, boy it came close to working if it
Speaker 6: hadn't been For berkewitz's traffic tickets for parking next to
Speaker 6: a fire. Hydrant there's no telling how long it had
Speaker 6: gone on and what damage it would have done to
Speaker 6: the city Of New.
Speaker 5: York Let jesus has an opportunity to stop for these.
Speaker 5: Messages you talked about that this, group this group of,
Speaker 5: terrorists satanic terrorists or influenced, terrorists came to an end With.
Speaker 5: Berkowitz but you talk about Also terry claiming That berkowitz
Speaker 5: spoke of The Arless perry. Murder, now The Arlest perry
Speaker 5: murder is something that he shouldn't have known or couldn't have.
Speaker 5: Known so tell us about Why terry thought that this
Speaker 5: was very.
Speaker 6: Important, well it's interesting to me Because Arlest perry is
Speaker 6: a murder that is included in my previous, Book The
Speaker 6: age Of. Zellia Arles perry was the beautiful new bride
Speaker 6: Attending Stanford. University she had just had an argument with her,
Speaker 6: husband nothing. Serious had gone to The Stanford University cathedral to,
Speaker 6: pray which was not unusual for, her and she didn't
Speaker 6: come home that, night and she was found between the.
Speaker 6: Pews you horribly violated with church candles in what appeared
Speaker 6: to be a ritualistic. Murder David, berkowitz in one of
Speaker 6: his first interviews with With Maury, terry says that you
Speaker 6: should look into, that and gives them some details about,
Speaker 6: it which leads to the obvious conclusion That berkowitz is
Speaker 6: in touch with somebody in prison who knows about The you,
Speaker 6: know that's the epidemic of weird and horrible murders taking
Speaker 6: place in Northern california during the nineteen sixty, nine in
Speaker 6: the early part of nineteen. Seventies you know, that you
Speaker 6: know in, REALITY i Wrote The Wicked King wicker BEFORE
Speaker 6: i Wrote The age Of. Zodiac they've released in opposite
Speaker 6: directions for reasons that probably aren't that, Interesting and for
Speaker 6: a WHILE i wanted to to Release The Wicked King
Speaker 6: wicker with an academic press and eventually decided against. It
Speaker 6: but it did move the books out of, order and
Speaker 6: there are certainly a lot of connections Between zodiac And
Speaker 6: son Of sam even Without bergerwitz talking About Arles perry
Speaker 6: in prison to an investigative, journalist you know The zodiac
Speaker 6: killer was in Northern, california killed between nineteen sixty and nineteen.
Speaker 6: Seventy theorized that there was a team of killers using
Speaker 6: The zodiac as an avatar to take the credit for
Speaker 6: them all, right which is considered, controversial even though With
Speaker 6: son Of sam that's exactly what. Happened, now this Is
Speaker 6: son Of sam is Not David. Berkowitz The son Of
Speaker 6: sam is these people who may or may not be
Speaker 6: associated with The Processed, church who were taking turns using
Speaker 6: the same weapon and going out in packs looking for. Victims,
Speaker 6: now The son Of sam attacks seem to be imitative
Speaker 6: in some ways to The. Zodiac zodiac certainly provided a.
Speaker 6: Template there's a gunman firing into part cars containing two
Speaker 6: young people making. Out both feature terrifying letters sent both
Speaker 6: the local newspapers and left at crime. Scene both attacking
Speaker 6: areas where young people tended to feel. Safe but there
Speaker 6: are differences as. WELL i, Mean zodiac killed with a
Speaker 6: variety of guns and a. Knife but there's more reason
Speaker 6: to think that The zodiac is more than one person
Speaker 6: than Than son Of. Sam son Of sam cases all
Speaker 6: featured the same. Weapon zodiac seemed dyslexic and like coded,
Speaker 6: messages while The son Of sam knew the proper use
Speaker 6: of a semi colon and could be highly. Poetic and
Speaker 6: obviously the biggest difference of all, is you, know The
Speaker 6: zodiac case never resulted in an, arrest and the letters
Speaker 6: from The zodiac continued for years after the last Known zodiac.
Speaker 6: Murder and among the crimes that seemed to have come
Speaker 6: out of that that rash of murders started by The
Speaker 6: zodiac is the murder Of Atlas. Perry and Here's David
Speaker 6: burke who it's talking about it to an investigative reporter
Speaker 6: after being arrested for The son Of sam.
Speaker 5: Killings do you talk about that that there was you
Speaker 5: had just mentioned it alluded to it that there was
Speaker 5: clear difference when people wrote read those, letters that there
Speaker 5: was an extreme chasm of intelligence between the two letter,
Speaker 5: writers which would give credence that that there was it
Speaker 5: wasn't Just David berkowitz, involved.
Speaker 6: All, Right and we have and we have letters that
Speaker 6: we Know berkowitz wrote which seem like cheap imitations of
Speaker 6: the masterpiece that Begins hello from The gutters Of New York.
Speaker 6: City and also the letters in both the the The
Speaker 6: brelli letter and The bresma letter are in almost a
Speaker 6: fond like. Handwriting they're printed in all capital. Letters, uh
Speaker 6: so neatly that for a time letters for comic books
Speaker 6: were under suspicion by a desperate police. Force but you,
Speaker 6: know If berkowitz has ever been asked, to you, know
Speaker 6: write me something in that, funt, YEAH i don't know about,
Speaker 6: it BECAUSE i don't think he. Can i'm pretty sure
Speaker 6: there's this conclusive proof that you, know Burke wood's not
Speaker 6: only wasn't he wasn't even just taking this you, know.
Speaker 6: Dictation he didn't write the letters.
Speaker 5: You talk. About, yeah, sorry go, ahead, no go, AHEAD
Speaker 5: i you wrote as. Well it was very interesting That
Speaker 5: berkowitz Told Maury terry that he only killed Donal loia
Speaker 5: And isau and Uh Valentina serrani uh and that The
Speaker 5: bath shootings took place under a street lamp because it
Speaker 5: was being filmed by a snuff film. Crew and then
Speaker 5: you have your what are your thoughts about?
Speaker 6: That, well you, know for YEARS i thought that it
Speaker 6: was nonsense to think that a snuff film was being
Speaker 6: made In, bathbeach basically because what would you? SEE i,
Speaker 6: mean there's supposedly there's someone with a movie camera in
Speaker 6: a nearby. Van what would you? See you would see
Speaker 6: a man firing a gun into a, car but the
Speaker 6: money shot is the, victims and they're inside the. Car
Speaker 6: the camera would have to be inside the. Car and
Speaker 6: maybe Maybe i'm not thinking it through or, properly but
Speaker 6: it seemed to me like a snuff film would have
Speaker 6: as its center of attention the, victim.
Speaker 2: The.
Speaker 6: Snuff the snuff is the money, shot you, know sort
Speaker 6: of like A Black dalias. Scenario but, then you, know
Speaker 6: it occurred to me that at that, point The sun
Speaker 6: Of sam shootings were so notorious and so so, famous
Speaker 6: so so you, know The hollywood hot even that a
Speaker 6: shooting that showed someone firing Into Robert violente's car would be,
Speaker 6: worth you, know one hundreds of thousand dollars on that
Speaker 6: kind of deviant. Market SO i think it's more feasible
Speaker 6: now THAN i did for many. Years BUT i don't.
Speaker 6: KNOW i don't know much about the snuff theyll. MARKET
Speaker 6: i know that it probably is even further underground than you,
Speaker 6: know child, pornography And i'm sure the people who are
Speaker 6: into that sort of thing know how to keep secrets
Speaker 6: and know each other because they need to share and.
Speaker 6: Swap but, yeah the guy who was supposed to be
Speaker 6: directing the movie was a producer Named Roy. Raiden and
Speaker 6: we do know that That Roy raiden was was himself
Speaker 6: murdered and found partially buried in the deaths are in
Speaker 6: In california by by a man who went to prison
Speaker 6: for the for the murder Named William, menzer who was
Speaker 6: referred to As manson too In Morey terry's, book which
Speaker 6: is long sent out of. Print but uh an interesting,
Speaker 6: Note William menzer the uh the killer Of Roy raiden stuff,
Speaker 6: filmmaker alleged stuff filmmaker was also alone with one Of
Speaker 6: Carol king's husbands at the time That Carrol king's husband
Speaker 6: died of a drug. Overdose there these these aren't nice,
Speaker 6: guys and they're into some really scary. Stuff AND i know,
Speaker 6: that you, Know Robert maplethorp has been mentioned as a
Speaker 6: person who is into this. Stuff and you don't know
Speaker 6: what to believe the one not to. BELIEVE i do
Speaker 6: know that the argument that you know we'd murders stopped
Speaker 6: When berkwitz was arrested in The New york area is not.
Speaker 6: True that you know there were no more forty four
Speaker 6: murders because they police had the. Gun but there is
Speaker 6: the horrible murder Of Howard green who was fifty one
Speaker 6: years old And Carol myron thirty three In, brooklyn and
Speaker 6: they were, found you, know murdered in a ritualistic. Way
Speaker 6: their eyeballs had been blown, out the tips of their
Speaker 6: ears were cut, off they had almost all of their
Speaker 6: blood drained through approximately thirty puncture marks made in identical
Speaker 6: places on the two. Bodies the two corpses were bound
Speaker 6: in canvas and rugs and. Dumped they were dumped In West,
Speaker 6: Patterson New. Jersey and nothing good ever happens In West,
Speaker 6: Patterson New. Jersey and they were discovered discovered by a
Speaker 6: boy walking his. Dog SO i, mean if they if
Speaker 6: they lived on the Coalb avenue here In, brooklyn right
Speaker 6: where the last, uh the Last son Of sam attack took.
Speaker 6: Place so the creepy kids stopped passing around the forty.
Speaker 6: Four but it doesn't mean they stopped doing creepy.
Speaker 5: Things, yeah in this in this incredible, book you also
Speaker 5: we didn't have time to talk About it was the
Speaker 5: kind of a wild trial in that his disposition changes
Speaker 5: dramatically at different times in the, Courtroom he's very passive
Speaker 5: and sits there smiling and. Quiet but there is a
Speaker 5: time when he goes berserk in, court doesn't he?
Speaker 6: Horrifying? Horrifying he he starts to scream at Poor Stacy,
Speaker 6: moscow it's his. Mother stacey was a, Whoa stacy was a.
Speaker 6: Whoa uh kill him so badly that they're getting up
Speaker 6: from their seat and moving to the, aisle and they
Speaker 6: security is all over the, place grabbing people and separating.
Speaker 6: People it's just just a you, know a tremendous scene
Speaker 6: from a you, know a guy, who since he was,
Speaker 6: arrested had been scaring people with his calmness and his
Speaker 6: little shy. Smile h you, know you, know THE fbi
Speaker 6: says that the serial killers tend to be uh tend
Speaker 6: to be. Adopted That's. Burkolitz burkolitz was adopted by by
Speaker 6: The matt And Pearl berkowitz because his actual mother had
Speaker 6: a boyfriend who didn't want a baby in the, house
Speaker 6: so he was given. Away you had a girl hating
Speaker 6: club when he was a little, boy like in The Little.
Speaker 5: Rascals so in the, army in the army as, well
Speaker 5: he did and uh.
Speaker 6: He he's In, korea, uh and one of The conor,
Speaker 6: Brothers John, CARR i, think was stationed To creer at
Speaker 6: the same. Time no evidence be knew each, other but
Speaker 6: they could. Have And berkowitz took a lot OF lsd
Speaker 6: while he was in the army and sort of went
Speaker 6: from a gung ho soldier to being a psychobabbel hippie.
Speaker 6: Overnight and by the time he was discharged and came back,
Speaker 6: home his old friends didn't want to talk to him
Speaker 6: anymore that he was he was too. Odd, YEAH.
Speaker 5: I want to thank you so.
Speaker 6: Much i'm GLAD i got Thee i'm GLAD i had
Speaker 6: Published The Wicked King. Wicker. Uh it's been something that
Speaker 6: in many Ways i've been working on SINCE i was in,
Speaker 6: college and this is. UH i was never satisfied With
Speaker 6: Jimmy breslon's. BOOK i thought, it you, know kind of
Speaker 6: missed the. Mark, uh Like Spike lee's, movie kind of
Speaker 6: Missed Mary terry's books been out of print for a long,
Speaker 6: time you. KNOW i thought of a book that really
Speaker 6: captured the psychology of, fear that this, uh this pack
Speaker 6: of weirdos you, know brought down On New York city
Speaker 6: And New York city that really deserved. Better it's a
Speaker 6: miracle That New york recovered and, became you, know safe
Speaker 6: again after all of, that but it.
Speaker 5: Did it's. REMARKABLE i don't. Know thank you so much
Speaker 5: for this remarkable interview talking about The Wicked King, wicker
Speaker 5: the son Of, sem the son Of, sam siege Upon New.
Speaker 5: York it's been an absolute, Pleasure. Michael for those more
Speaker 5: to find out more about this, book you have An
Speaker 5: amazon page. Website tell US i.
Speaker 6: Do Amazon amazon dot. Com i'm The i'm The Michael
Speaker 6: benson with the White. Beard you can't miss there we.
Speaker 5: Go thank you so, Much, michael this has been been.
Speaker 5: Pleasure The Wicked King, wicker incredible story of son Of.
Speaker 5: Sam thank you so, Much. Michael hope to speak to
Speaker 5: you again. Soon good, Night, yes good