WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.520 Before we dive in, here's another show you can enjoy 2 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:06.480 in the True Story FM Family of Entertainment podcast. Oh 3 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:07.120 there you are. 4 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:09.919 I was hoping i'd cross paths with you today. I'd 5 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:12.599 like to invite you to visit the story Well. It's 6 00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:15.679 a place where storytellers of all stripes gather, from improp 7 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:19.800 performers to authors, screenwriters to playwrights. We all tell stories, 8 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:23.000 but we're not here to talk about craft. We're here 9 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:26.960 to make something out of nothing. Each episode of the podcast, 10 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.399 your host that's me sits down with a creative person 11 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:31.920 and based on a series of random prompts, we get 12 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:35.119 elements that we make into a story. Will it be 13 00:00:35.159 --> 00:00:38.479 a noir novel about King Kong or a Broadway musical 14 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:41.920 about JFK? Even We don't know. That's the fun part. 15 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:44.479 But what do you get out of this besides a 16 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:48.920 good time with fun people? Simple? The idea is then yours. 17 00:00:49.479 --> 00:00:51.799 That's right. Whatever we come up with, we give it 18 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:55.479 away for anyone to use, however they'd like no strings attached. 19 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:59.079 It's like each episode come with a free prize. Inside 20 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:02.640 Well with Kyle Olson, we'll say, if you a seat 21 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:03.159 at the table. 22 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:08.359 Ever wondered what happens when a Zoomer who grew up 23 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:09.079 on the Clone. 24 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:11.280 Wars, millennial Anakin Defender. 25 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:13.400 And a grumpy old gen Xer walking to a canteen 26 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:14.519 and at talk Star Wars. 27 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:16.239 Then we've got the podcast for you. 28 00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:18.920 Star Wars Generations is a place for fans of all 29 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:21.359 backgrounds to come together talk about what we love the 30 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:24.159 franchise and what we can learn from each other. With 31 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:26.599 so much new Star Wars content coming out, we take 32 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:29.040 a deep dive into all of it. We talk stories 33 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:31.480 and characters, what we learn about the Force and the Empire, 34 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:34.719 Republics old and new, and how each story adds to 35 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:35.480 the larger picture. 36 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:39.879 Besides episode by episode coverage of the new shows, we've 37 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:40.680 been going. 38 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:42.319 Back to watch the movies and release order. 39 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:44.079 We talk about Star. 40 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:47.599 Wars novels and video games, along with fam content and cosplay. 41 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:51.120 And with each episode we're just starting the conversation and 42 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:52.159 we hope you jump in. 43 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:54.560 We'll read your feedback, answer your questions. 44 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:57.879 We've had full episodes dedicated to questions and raised by. 45 00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:00.719 Listeners like you. You can find us ender Star Wars 46 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:03.519 Generations on your favorite podcast app or by going to 47 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:05.959 the Ethical Pana dot com May the Force be with 48 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:20.479 you now. This is podcasting. Hello, and welcome to this 49 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:23.759 episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, myself and my co hosts 50 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:27.599 Riggi are talking about the new Netflix movie Rebel. For 51 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:29.879 a couple of months now, but if you're calling quite 52 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:32.000 a stir, it is a very good movie with a 53 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:34.360 lot of interesting issues that it raises, and Rieky and 54 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:37.000 I are going to talk about it, and this, like 55 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:39.280 a lot of things recently, has been one that Riky suggested. 56 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:41.159 So Riky, let me just kind of start by get 57 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:43.439 your chance to introduce yourself and then talking about why 58 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:44.599 you want to talk about this movie. 59 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:51.240 Hey, good morning, afternoon evening wherever you are. H Yeah, 60 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:56.520 I just came across this on Netflix and wasn't really 61 00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:59.759 sure what it was. Read the description, I thought, okay, 62 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:03.520 I'll give this a shot and really enjoyed it. 63 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:05.919 And then started to do more. 64 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:08.319 Research into some of the stuff going on in this 65 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:12.039 movie and the people behind it, and I thought it 66 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:14.879 would be good. It brings up a couple of issues 67 00:03:15.319 --> 00:03:18.039 that I think are very good in relation to what 68 00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:22.479 we talk about on the show and just very relevant 69 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:26.639 to our society in general. For an action movie, I 70 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:31.479 think that's perfect, right. Most action movies we think of 71 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:34.360 as mindless, but this one just really makes you think. 72 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:36.159 And I enjoyed that a lot about it. 73 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:39.840 Yeah, it really does on a couple of levels. Because, 74 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:42.120 first of all, I will say, as someone who's on 75 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:44.360 record is not being a huge fan of fight scenes, 76 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:47.840 the fight scenes in this are incredibly beautifully shot. I 77 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:50.520 think I don't have the problem I often do of 78 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:52.560 not being sure what's going on. I always know what's 79 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:55.360 going on, but also there are times where the action 80 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:58.759 scenes don't give you what you think you're gonna get. 81 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:02.319 And there's a lot to do with how the like 82 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:07.120 that visual storytelling is explaining that our our protagonist's perspective 83 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:09.199 on violence, which is what we're gonna a part of 84 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:11.439 what we're gonna be talking about. For those who haven't 85 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:13.960 seen it, I would recommend hitting pause and then going 86 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:15.879 to watch it, because we are gonna have to spoil 87 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:17.720 a bunch of things. I'm trying to spoil the very end, 88 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:21.199 but probably will eventually, but let me kind of give 89 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:24.160 a plot rundown for those who aren't going to see it, 90 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:25.959 or those who sat a little while ago and forgotten it. 91 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:29.360 And again i'd recommend going to see it. But either way, 92 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:31.600 here it is. So our protagonist is a guy named 93 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:37.279 Terry Richmond, and he is his cousin. Mike is in 94 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:40.399 jail and is about to get transferred to state prison 95 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:44.519 while he is awaiting trial. The problem with all this 96 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:49.120 is that Mike has you know, it is a legit bust. 97 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:52.319 He was caught with drugs planning to distribute, but he 98 00:04:52.439 --> 00:04:56.560 had earlier been a witness to another crime. He's supposed 99 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:58.319 to be getting some kind of witness protection or something. 100 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:00.680 He's not, and he sent to state prison. He's going 101 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:04.279 to be killed. So Terry, our protagonist, is riding his 102 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:08.759 bike trying to bring the bail money to the courthouse 103 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:13.120 in this small town of Silver Springs. I think it's called. 104 00:05:13.399 --> 00:05:16.079 It's never said that it's in Louisiana, but it's the 105 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.759 accents are of that area, and they constantly are talking 106 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:22.759 about parishes start of county, so I think this is Louisiana. 107 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:28.800 But either way, it's definitely the Deep South. And Terry 108 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:32.680 gets Terry has an altercation with the police while he's 109 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:36.120 on his bike. They search him, they find the cash, 110 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:38.959 and because he is connected to Mike, who is arrested 111 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:42.519 for drug charges. They assume that well, they make the 112 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:46.319 claim that the money is something that the police should 113 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:49.720 be able to take under what is called civil forfeiture 114 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.240 civil asset forfeiture. Some I think we're definitely gonna talk 115 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:55.120 about it a lot and basically take the money. And 116 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:57.319 then a lot of the rest of the movie is 117 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:01.279 about Terry first trying legal avenue and then extra legal 118 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:04.399 avenues to get that money back in order to protect 119 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:08.560 his cousin Mike by bailing him out of jail. Eventually 120 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:11.720 he fails in that Mike is taken to jail, and 121 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:15.480 Mike dies in jail as was expected, and now the 122 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.920 fight is about getting justice and about trying to bring 123 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:22.199 light to the terrible corruption that's happening because they find 124 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:25.800 out that there's actually been this, because they find out 125 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:27.839 that this has been a pattern for some time that 126 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:32.879 the sheriff, who is clearly racist, clearly corrupt, but they 127 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:36.399 can't be, you know, as clearly upfront about that kind 128 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:38.279 of stuff as they might have been twenty years ago, 129 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:40.519 thirty years ago, and so now it has to be 130 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.639 a lot more under the radar through these bureaucracies, through 131 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:49.079 the civil asset forfeiture, and so Terry tries to deal 132 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:52.240 with this. He gets into a couple of altercations where 133 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:53.879 one thing we learn is that he is a former 134 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:58.839 marine and he taught de escalation. He taught people how 135 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:03.120 to not let fights escalate, but both verbally and also 136 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:07.000 physical actions that are focused on ending a fight, not 137 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:09.920 necessarily winning it in terms of knocking the guard eye 138 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:11.399 out or shooting them. But it's a lot of like 139 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:16.399 disarming people or knocking them down or incapacitating them without 140 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:21.000 aiming to kill them. Although importantly the phrase that's used 141 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:25.360 is less lethal violence. They don't talk about non lethal 142 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:28.959 violence and will definitely get to that, and so a 143 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:32.160 number of things happen through the course of the movie. 144 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:34.519 He gets help from a couple of folks, including a 145 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:38.040 court assistant named Summer and another police officer who turns 146 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:40.240 out has kind of been a mole trying to feed 147 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:43.439 information to people about what's happening in the police department. 148 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:46.759 And then in the climactic scene, yep, I was wrong, 149 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:50.480 watching can spoil the ending. Already he's in a chase. 150 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:53.000 They're trying to get to the hospital, so because he 151 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:55.480 needs a hospital, they're trying to get to a hospital 152 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:57.839 because the cop will help them needs a hospital, but 153 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:00.800 also because he needs to, you know, get the information 154 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:03.959 that he's got on the secret drive to the right authorities. 155 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:08.519 And one of the cops winds up helping them in 156 00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:10.839 large part because he's able to kind of make the 157 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:12.680 case of look, you guys are all going to go 158 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:16.680 to jail. This is all super corrupt, and so in 159 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.199 the end, the cops all wind up helping him to 160 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:22.920 take down their boss. But it's left pretty murky as 161 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:25.800 to whether the cops had this, Oh he's in the 162 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:28.199 moral right, we're in the moral wrong moment, or just 163 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:30.680 oh wait, our boss is going down. We want to 164 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:33.080 cover our own asses. In kind of one of my 165 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:35.519 favorite parts of the movie that that's left intentionally vague, 166 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:38.159 and the writer, director and editor has said they left 167 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:41.159 that intentionally vague. So that's kind of our quick summary 168 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:43.360 of the movie. Ricky, what did I leave out? 169 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:51.879 Well, let's talk about the creator. It's Jeremy Salnier. I'm 170 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:55.320 giving it a little French twist. Who is I believe 171 00:08:55.399 --> 00:08:58.559 most famous for the movie Green Room, which was a 172 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:02.679 twenty fifteen movie about a punk band who plays a 173 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:04.919 show at a Nazi bar and then gets into an 174 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.480 altercation and then they have to fight their way out 175 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:10.600 of the titular green room against a bunch of Nazis, 176 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:12.240 including Patrick Stewart. 177 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:14.759 So it's pretty pretty. 178 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.039 Well known for that, for that kind of cameo or 179 00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:22.320 stunt casting, and is well regarded as like another movie 180 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.759 in this department of an action movie with some interesting 181 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:30.240 things to say about society. And this was twenty fifteen, 182 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:34.320 when you know, the idea of a Nazi bar was 183 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:37.039 like an underground place and not just that place down 184 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:45.320 the streets, right. So I really like his work, Jeremy Solnier, 185 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:49.120 and I'm curious to explore more after this and learning 186 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:51.960 that he did Green Room. 187 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:57.200 As for the story, I think you covered it well. 188 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:02.840 My biggest thing about this was that it's obvious that 189 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:08.279 Terry is the protagonist, the hero of this action movie, 190 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:13.279 and the cops and especially the sheriff played by Don Johnson, 191 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:18.559 the delightful casting. It's clear that they are bad, like 192 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:23.639 they're doing bad things, but it is never done in 193 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:26.600 a way that is, you know, like we would say 194 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:32.639 mustache twirling like comic book villain. They're definitely bad they're 195 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:37.559 doing and sometimes even evil, like I might say, but 196 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:41.440 you can always kind of see the humanity, yeah, and 197 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:44.159 go like I understand what they're doing, and it's not 198 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:48.399 out of the realm of reality, Like I know, like 199 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:51.799 I read that this is not based on a true story, 200 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:55.480 but it is based on facts and situations that have 201 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:58.480 happened to people, not to the action movie degree, but 202 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:01.440 the civil asset forfeiture, which we'll talk about more later. 203 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:03.519 It's like definitely something that happens. 204 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:06.120 I think that's so true. And I think the fact 205 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.639 that fairly early on Terry admits Mike did commit the 206 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:12.639 crime for which he was arrested is really important in 207 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:16.320 that because, like to be clear, there are people in jail, 208 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:20.120 especially people of color, men of color, black men, who 209 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:23.080 did nothing, who were completely framed. But a lot of 210 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:26.600 these things happen because someone makes a dumb mistake and 211 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:29.080 then things escalate and get much worse because of this, 212 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:32.440 or because their family members are trying to navigate the 213 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:35.320 system of Okay, my family members going to jail, I 214 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:36.879 get it, But how do I help them? How do 215 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:39.200 I get money to them in the commissary? How do 216 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:41.320 I help keep them in you know, witness protection or 217 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.600 something like that, and yeah, I totally agree, it becomes 218 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.279 it keeps it very human. You understand the pressure that's 219 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:51.600 under the cops are under that party issue is that 220 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:55.799 there's a consent decree in place because of former aspect. 221 00:11:55.799 --> 00:11:58.559 Like basically, this is a police department that did commit 222 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:01.799 acts of race violence or something like that in the past, 223 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:04.360 and I think there's a wrongful death suit against them, 224 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:06.720 and so they're out of money, and so they need 225 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:10.279 more money to do this. And again it's not like 226 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:12.879 making them heroes by any means. It's because of their own, 227 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:18.279 you know, awful practices. This has happened. But that makes 228 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:20.519 the Don Johnson character feel a lot more, you know, 229 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:23.320 like a person, like a real character who I could 230 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:26.399 see in real life, rather than like, moahaha, I just 231 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:29.240 want to have you know, diamond plated you know everything 232 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:30.919 in my cop mansion kind of a thing. 233 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:31.519 Yeah. 234 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:34.720 The comical thing that he corruptly spent money on was 235 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:36.000 a Margarito machine. 236 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:37.919 Yeah. 237 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:41.639 And they are also stockpiling weapons, which I would argue, 238 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:44.240 like the amount of weapons that they have are not 239 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:48.120 necessary for this size police force, like for this jurisdiction. 240 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:51.480 But I can understand, like the mentality of the police 241 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:54.159 force saying like we want more stuff. 242 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:57.279 Right, well, and the fact of the fact is that 243 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:00.440 most police departments now have far more. I mean you 244 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.799 could argue, like do any police departments need tanks or 245 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:07.080 you know which level, but like, yeah, just like the 246 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.559 level of weaponry that this police armer has is way 247 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:12.080 out of proportion what you think they'd need, but it's 248 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:14.399 also not unrealistic to what's happening in our own world. 249 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:17.399 Yeah, Like when they first show the armory and pan 250 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:19.559 to it, I was like, that's a lot for like 251 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:23.919 I don't like a dozen people, but I do like, 252 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:27.639 like there's a theme. You know, you mentioned less lethal, 253 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:31.639 and I think it was actually Don Johnson's character who's 254 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:33.919 commenting on the weapons they have and said, well, we've 255 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:38.279 had to like shift to buying non lethal weapons or 256 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:41.879 as they want us to call it less lethal because 257 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:43.200 of like legal issues. 258 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:47.039 So I think that's that was a really. 259 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:52.159 Good line for a like developing the plot and showing 260 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:55.240 what's happening and why later on Terry uses a bunch. 261 00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:58.279 Of these weapons and you know, does not kill people. 262 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:03.519 But also like the idea of rubber bullets or they 263 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:08.519 have a shotgun that shoots sandbags, right right, And there 264 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:12.159 have been deaths that have occurred in situations where people 265 00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:14.440 have used these you know, police forces have used these 266 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:17.919 weapons on civilians tasers as well, Like there have been 267 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:23.039 deaths from tasers. So I think the acknowledgment that they 268 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:26.799 are not universally non lethal, but they are less lethal 269 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:28.159 is good. 270 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:32.279 Yeah, honestly, this is this is the language that I've 271 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:35.399 been wanting every time we talk about Daredevil or Batman 272 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:38.279 or any kind of hero who you know makes a 273 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:40.679 claim of I won't kill and I'll save a lot 274 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:42.399 of that for We're gonna do a whole episode on 275 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:44.799 non violence and non lethal violence and things like that. 276 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:49.519 But part of it is because I you know, there's 277 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:51.519 a you can kick a person in the head and 278 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:55.600 kill them. You can punch a person in the stomach, 279 00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:59.559 and just because of a freak thing, you can kill them. 280 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:03.480 Like the idea that there is a clear line of 281 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:06.039 this violence is lethal and this violence absolutely is not 282 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:10.519 is nonsense. And I just love that they both they 283 00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:13.799 show him doing everything he can to avoid lethal violence, 284 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:16.360 but I think he's going into it knowing that. Yeah, 285 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:18.679 Like there's a couple of times where he knocks people 286 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:19.919 down and they hit their heads. 287 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:24.879 Some of the action sequences, especially from Terry's actions, are 288 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.519 very brutal. Yeah, and so like I would caution people, 289 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:30.279 like if you're gonna watch it, be aware of that. 290 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:33.159 You know, we're talking about less lethal. But at one 291 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:38.159 point he breaks a man's arm and another man he 292 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:40.320 like punches, He's got him on the ground and he 293 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:44.840 punches him in the face multiple times. Yeah, and it's clear, 294 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.799 like from the narrative, like his training, like he knows 295 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:52.519 how to apply force in a way to incapacitate people 296 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:55.559 and that's what he's trying to do. But I agree, 297 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:59.120 like it's very possible, like from those face punches that 298 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.159 like person could have could die in that situation. 299 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:06.440 Yeah, for sure, And I really appreciate that. Let's talk 300 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:10.200 about this less lethal violence. That's a hard thing to 301 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:14.320 say kind of philosophy he has because clear that he 302 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:18.360 is not only in how he fights, but just everything 303 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:21.679 he does his goals de escalation. How did that strike 304 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:27.159 you because it's not what you normally see from heroes. Yeah. 305 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:33.039 I enjoyed watching, Like when the action sequences start, he 306 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.919 is always doing things like very deliberately in the very 307 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:45.279 first like physical confrontation, he takes the sheriff's pistol, like 308 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.759 the sheriff like unholsters his pistol and is getting ready 309 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:50.919 to use it or at least threatened Terry with it, 310 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.799 and Terry, you know, disarms him and then very quickly 311 00:16:55.600 --> 00:17:00.559 empties the magazine. Yeah, and then turns the sheriff because 312 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:02.799 like his deputies are coming out with their weapons, and 313 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:04.960 he turns the saraff around, uses him as a shield 314 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:07.880 and walks him forward and is talking to the deputy 315 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:09.599 saying like, hey, you don't want to do this, Like 316 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:11.880 you don't want to do this, Let's talk about this. 317 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:14.319 Like the language he uses, right, is part of the 318 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:18.640 de escalation. He's disarmed the sheriff. He's eliminated that as 319 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:23.799 a lethal weapon in this situation, and throughout the action 320 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:27.160 sequences he's constantly doing that. Like in a later action sequence, 321 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:31.160 he picks up a shotgun and empties all the shells, 322 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:35.640 and one of the police officers later picks up that 323 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:39.119 shotgun in the conflict in the confusion and tries to 324 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:42.160 shoot Terry and it's empty because he had taken care 325 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:43.559 of that issue. 326 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:48.279 Yeah, No, it's so well done. And I was reading 327 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:50.079 an article about the movie about how some folks had 328 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:53.079 said that they were kind of disappointed that he doesn't 329 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:55.119 kill the cops, the corrupt cops at the end of 330 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:59.119 the movie, and the director talked about this, and the writer, 331 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:06.519 Jeremy was first name, right, Yeah, son Sonier talked about 332 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:09.039 this and said that he wanted this movie to feel 333 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.079 realistic and that the chance of him killing a cop, 334 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:15.200 no matter how corrupt that cop might have been, and 335 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:17.599 getting away with it in this world is just not 336 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:21.759 a believable thing right now. And he also wanted to 337 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:25.160 focus on how a large part of this guy's goal 338 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:28.720 wasn't just like getting justice in this pure sense, it 339 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:31.599 was survival. It was getting to a place that he 340 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:34.680 could walk away and get back to some semblance of 341 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:38.000 his life. First, could he survive and save his cousin, 342 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:42.359 and then could he just survive? And I really like that, 343 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:44.319 and it felt like it fit this idea of the 344 00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:48.720 non lethality, because you know, and this is kind of 345 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:54.400 the unspoken part, but an essential part of understanding the 346 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:59.160 interactions between police and men of color, but especially black men, 347 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:03.480 is this assumption of lethality. And it feels like to me, 348 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:05.400 part of what's happening with his character is that he 349 00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:10.799 is going he is especially eager to show the cops 350 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:13.039 he is not going to try and use lethal violence, 351 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:16.640 because the fact is that like black men, doing almost 352 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:21.000 anything can be assumed to be a source of lethal 353 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:23.440 violence by the cops, which is then turned into violence 354 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:26.079 against them in racist way. It's like, I'm not saying 355 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:29.160 anything that's justified and saying that's what happens. And even 356 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:32.599 from the very start when he's on his bicycle, he's 357 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:35.079 just trying to explain the situation, but very quickly the 358 00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:37.359 cops go into a you know, we're going to treat 359 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:39.920 you as an adversary, We're gonna treat you as a 360 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:43.559 possible threat. And I think that's the that's the motivation, 361 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:45.519 that that's the world in which he is living this 362 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:48.920 whole movie, and why he's non violent. His less lethal 363 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:52.160 violence than his de escalation becomes so vitable to who 364 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:52.480 he is. 365 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.480 Yeah, there's a scene where he's driving. 366 00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:02.599 A truck and they pull him over and the officer 367 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.039 you know, comes to the window and I think Terry 368 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.559 says something like, are my hands okay? 369 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:12.119 Right? 370 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:15.240 Do you remember that scene? And the officer says, yep, 371 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:20.880 like ten and two, and that that spoke volumes to me, right, 372 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:25.160 Like that is the understanding between those two characters of 373 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:30.319 like a negotiation. Yeah, because in those situations and of course, 374 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:32.559 like they know who this guy is already, but in 375 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:37.240 a situation where a police officer pulls over a black man, 376 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:41.759 like so often we hear these terrible tragedies of a 377 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:46.400 shooting in that situation because like of these assumptions and 378 00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:50.359 like the feeling of threat. Yeah, it's like, all right, 379 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:52.000 I got my hands on the wheel and ten and 380 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:54.480 two you can see them, I'm not going for a weapon, 381 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:57.559 you know, don't shoot me, because in so many tragic 382 00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:58.839 situations that happens. 383 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:00.000 Yeah, even like. 384 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:04.839 Someone reaching for you know, their ID and insurance and 385 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:07.400 registration in the glove compartment. It's like the officers like 386 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:09.400 I thought he was going for a gun, right, But 387 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:13.559 that's a normal thing, and like I don't think about 388 00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:16.720 like I think about it now, but when I've been 389 00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:20.200 pulled over, I haven't worried. I haven't ever worried about that. 390 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:24.880 And that's like the tragedy of society today, yeah, of 391 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:28.759 racism in society and just the way that they showed 392 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:32.880 that so subtly in that situation without ever I think, 393 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:36.599 like saying anything specifically about it, but like, once you 394 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.160 know about it, it's like, oh yeah, Like I can 395 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.000 feel this tension for. 396 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.000 Sure, and I'm the same way. It was. One thing 397 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.039 watching this movie, it occurred to me that about a 398 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:48.799 month ago I had gotten pulled over my cop. My 399 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:50.799 car's in really bad shape. I've talked about this, and 400 00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:53.000 cop wanted I think I had a headlight out or something, 401 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:56.519