Speaker 1: Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join
Speaker 1: us as we dive into the deep end of the
Speaker 1: unexplainable and try to piece together what happened.
Speaker 2: And you are listening to Locations Unknown. What's up, everybody?
Speaker 3: Welcome back to another episode of Locations Unknown. I am
Speaker 3: your solo host, Mike van de Bogart. Know Joe this
Speaker 3: week he is out taking his daughter to college, So
Speaker 3: very special moment for Joe and we're really excited for him.
Speaker 3: So we don't actually have a new episode this week.
Speaker 3: So last week, Joe and I went on the Crime
Speaker 3: Off the Grid show, So they're are show on our
Speaker 3: Unknown Media Group network. If you're not familiar with the show,
Speaker 3: it's hosted by two ladies who have spent over thirty
Speaker 3: years in the National Park Service as law enforcement rangers.
Speaker 3: So really cool background. Nancy was a captain in the
Speaker 3: US Forest Service at one point two entires spent most
Speaker 3: of her career in Yellowstone National Park. So Joe and
Speaker 3: I went on their show and we brought with us
Speaker 3: three cases that we've covered years ago. So these cases
Speaker 3: are really interesting. If you're familiar with our cold case episodes,
Speaker 3: we did it, you know, three of them in a row,
Speaker 3: very high level, super high level, and then we let
Speaker 3: we sat back in, let Tara Nancy tell us their
Speaker 3: theories on what they think happened, because these cases are
Speaker 3: very bizarre. So one of them was the case of
Speaker 3: the guy who was working on a Discovery Channel show
Speaker 3: and just ran off into the woods, just up and
Speaker 3: ran off, and everyone was kind of like, where do
Speaker 3: you go? Never found them? So yeah, we went on
Speaker 3: their show and we went through these three cases and
Speaker 3: then listened to their theories and it was a really
Speaker 3: cool episode. They published it to their feed this Monday,
Speaker 3: and we thought it would be really cool to we're
Speaker 3: going to republish it to our feed for all of
Speaker 3: those people who have never heard of their show, don't
Speaker 3: listen to their show. Their show is true crime, but
Speaker 3: it's different than what we do. So they cover actual
Speaker 3: crime in the National Park Service, so murders and things
Speaker 3: like that, whereas we cover you know, somebody went hiking
Speaker 3: down this trail and just vanished, So they don't really
Speaker 3: cover stuff we do, and we don't really ever cover
Speaker 3: murders like that in the National Park Service. So two
Speaker 3: different shows, still true crime, but their show is great.
Speaker 3: I recommend you go give them a listen, go subscribe,
Speaker 3: and they have an amazing amount of experience from actually
Speaker 3: working in the National Park Service and actually one of
Speaker 3: the cases we covered on their show earlier this week,
Speaker 3: they were able to speak with people in the Park
Speaker 3: Service that were actually on the search and rescue. That's
Speaker 3: the kind of access they still have with the National
Speaker 3: Park Service. So really cool episode. We're going to post
Speaker 3: it to our feed ad free so you can listen
Speaker 3: to the whole episode uninterrupted, and we really hope that
Speaker 3: you like it and you go over there and subscribe
Speaker 3: to their show. They're great, and we're going to do
Speaker 3: more collaborations together because they have so much experience. Joe
Speaker 3: and I love talking to them every time because every
Speaker 3: time we speak there's new stories we hear about which
Speaker 3: are just fascinating. Hope you like this episode. Joe and
Speaker 3: I will be back next week with a brand new episode.
Speaker 3: We'll be back before you know it, and without further ado,
Speaker 3: please enjoy an episodeode from Crime Off the Grid.
Speaker 4: Hey there, if you like true crime stories and you
Speaker 4: love being in the great outdoors, you have come to
Speaker 4: the right place. Welcome to Crime Off the Grid. Hey,
Speaker 4: welcome everyone to a special episode of Crime Off the Grid.
Speaker 5: I'm Tara and I'm Nancy.
Speaker 4: And joining us today are the dynamic duo behind the
Speaker 4: Locations Unknown podcast, Mike vander Bogert. Do I pronounce that right?
Speaker 2: That's pretty good?
Speaker 4: Okay? And Joe Eroto did I pronounce that right?
Speaker 2: You did?
Speaker 4: Awesome? Two guys who spend their free time wandering in
Speaker 4: the woods and asking, Hey, where'd everybody go? And they
Speaker 4: turned getting lost. They've turned getting lost into an art
Speaker 4: form and a podcast, and so Mike and Joe used
Speaker 4: their decade of backcountry experience to explore mysterious unsolved disappearances
Speaker 4: within North America's wilderness. The show blends elements of true crime,
Speaker 4: such as unsolved mysteries, with the adventurous survival focus style
Speaker 4: of survivor. Man, is that still a show? I don't
Speaker 4: even know? And oh that's a guy? Okay?
Speaker 2: All right?
Speaker 4: Do you guys delve into cases of people who have
Speaker 4: vanished literally without a trace, in remote and treacherous environments.
Speaker 4: So grab your compass and your best conspiracy theory. We're
Speaker 4: going off the Grid with Locations Unknown, So welcome to
Speaker 4: the show.
Speaker 2: Mike and Joe thanks about what we've been doing.
Speaker 4: I know, well, no kidding, Yeah.
Speaker 2: You're big time.
Speaker 4: So we're very honored to have you here on the
Speaker 4: show with us.
Speaker 5: Okay, guys, before we get started, though, what what made
Speaker 5: you guys want to do this? Start this podcast? Locations
Speaker 5: on that Well.
Speaker 3: It started back when Joe and I did a lot
Speaker 3: of hiking together. We would be out in the woods
Speaker 3: and you would sometimes come across a missing person sign
Speaker 3: or okay, someone in the ranger station would say something
Speaker 3: about keep an eye out, you know, if you're out there,
Speaker 3: and we would always there's not a lot you don't
Speaker 3: you know, you don't get cell phone reception at night.
Speaker 3: When you're around, you know, the tent. You kind of
Speaker 3: start talking about different stuff, different disappearances. And I actually
Speaker 3: kind of got into the Missing four or one books
Speaker 3: years ago, which kind of smarked my interest. Initially, I
Speaker 3: started a website that just kind of tracked missing persons.
Speaker 4: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: And then Joe and I were at a bar one
Speaker 2: day and.
Speaker 3: We're just talking about it, and I think Joe's like, hey,
Speaker 3: maybe we should try just doing a podcast and no
Speaker 3: one might listen, but we'll have fun.
Speaker 2: I always call this thing Mike's Baby, because you started
Speaker 2: the website and you were telling me all about it
Speaker 2: because you were really excited about that, And I wasn't
Speaker 2: even into the four one one books until you told
Speaker 2: me after that. I mean, it was definitely based off
Speaker 2: of when we go hiking, like, oh, you're gonna be
Speaker 2: on this trailing glacier. Well, three people went missing last time,
Speaker 2: so if you see anything, let us know right what
Speaker 2: the heck happened to these people? Yeah, or, as you
Speaker 2: so eloquently put it, we walk out there and go
Speaker 2: where is everybody?
Speaker 3: Well, as we dug into the cases, more and more
Speaker 3: we kept getting cases where it was beyond just someone
Speaker 3: went out into the woods and got turned around and
Speaker 3: wasn't found again. It was cases where someone would be
Speaker 3: in a group of people, they might be lagging behind
Speaker 3: on the trail twenty feet someone looks back, they're there
Speaker 3: one second, five ten seconds later, they look back again
Speaker 3: and they're gone. Yeah, and they never find any gear,
Speaker 3: they don't find any tracks, nothing.
Speaker 2: So those cases are really kind of what wild. They're wild?
Speaker 3: I mean, they're still you can't, I can't. A lot
Speaker 3: of cases we see they were like what could have
Speaker 3: possibly happened?
Speaker 2: They were there and then gone.
Speaker 3: Like so it's some of these cases are so fascinating,
Speaker 3: and I think that's why you've seen an explosion in
Speaker 3: these kinds of shows.
Speaker 2: When Joe and I started, there was no one really
Speaker 2: doing it. Yeah, we were like the first outdoors true
Speaker 2: crime specific in the genre, blending that together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, now it's really grown into a huge part of podcasting.
Speaker 2: It's kind of surprising that people do continue to like
Speaker 2: and want listen and watch our show because the end
Speaker 2: is usually the same, Yeah.
Speaker 4: And it's we don't know what happens.
Speaker 2: We don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what do you think exactly?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So, Yeah, they're fascinating cases and I love talking about them,
Speaker 3: and Joe and I we've been doing this now since
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen and.
Speaker 2: A long time six years.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, more than that, Carrie's one.
Speaker 2: We're good at math, Yeah, good at math counting kind
Speaker 2: of good.
Speaker 3: But no, Yeah, we enjoy doing it, and we love
Speaker 3: all the new shows that are crapping up, especially a
Speaker 3: show like yours that comes from more of a perspective
Speaker 3: of people that have worked in the park, which is
Speaker 3: really interesting. That's obviously something we we bring a different
Speaker 3: perspective to a lot of these cases. But we're excited
Speaker 3: to be here with you both of you today because
Speaker 3: you bring you both bring a very unique perspective to
Speaker 3: cases like this.
Speaker 4: Absolutely well, thanks, Hey, can you share while we're we're
Speaker 4: actually affiliated in some way, can you explain while we're
Speaker 4: sort of affiliated now, what you mean?
Speaker 2: So part of us, part of our growth is we've
Speaker 2: been trying to bring shows like ours together to form
Speaker 2: kind of like a co op in the in the
Speaker 2: podcast space. So we create an unknown media and essentially
Speaker 2: we host you guys and help potentially bring more ad
Speaker 2: revenue to your show and to the network. But just
Speaker 2: in hopes of we believe in game theory and that
Speaker 2: is there's more than enough room in this space, so
Speaker 2: we don't need to be fighting each other for listens.
Speaker 2: We can share it because what we found is people
Speaker 2: who like these styles of shows, they listen to all
Speaker 2: of them. You know, they'll listen to National Park After
Speaker 2: Dark and our show and your show. So we're trying
Speaker 2: to figure out ways to bring everybody together and see
Speaker 2: if we can't all profit off of a much bigger
Speaker 2: pie than going independently. So yeah, we're still in the
Speaker 2: beginning phases of it. But it seems to be going
Speaker 2: pretty well right now. I don't know, you guys seen
Speaker 2: a bump in your numbers.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, actually we have thanks to you guys. Well,
Speaker 4: what are the other shows that our brothers and sisters
Speaker 4: who are they share with everybody? What other shows should
Speaker 4: they be listening to?
Speaker 2: We have a right go ahead?
Speaker 3: Oh no, I would say we have Off the Trails,
Speaker 3: which is a it's a similar show to ours, but
Speaker 3: it's with two female hosts, so you know, sometimes people
Speaker 3: prefer male hosts, sometimes people prefer female hosts, and they
Speaker 3: have their own angle on it. So it's it's a
Speaker 3: similar show, but it's not the same. And people that
Speaker 3: have liked our show have kind of also gravitated towards
Speaker 3: their show because it offers kind of a different listening experience.
Speaker 3: And we have Peanut Butter and Mountain Podcast. That's another
Speaker 3: great he's actually got a pretty big following on YouTube.
Speaker 2: Yes, and then Weirdos.
Speaker 3: We know that one is kind of more of a
Speaker 3: historical not exactly in our wheelhouse, but it's a really
Speaker 3: interesting show about strange stuff famous people in history kind
Speaker 3: of did behind closed Doors, very fascinating. A lot of
Speaker 3: I'm surprised at some of the weird stuff people do.
Speaker 2: Yes, so yeah, that shows not for kids.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then.
Speaker 2: And then Who Runs This Park?
Speaker 3: Which is a really it's kind of an interview style
Speaker 3: show where she interviews lots of you know, park superintendents
Speaker 3: and people that are in the outdoor space that either
Speaker 3: run organizations or.
Speaker 2: Outdoor companies or are involved in the park.
Speaker 3: So it's a really informative show if you want to
Speaker 3: learn about kind of what goes on in these parks
Speaker 3: and in that space.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm surprised she gets people to talk to her.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, well I will.
Speaker 4: Say Nancy and I, we generally only cover cases that
Speaker 4: have been adjudicated or have an ending.
Speaker 2: So smart, weird Gray, Well.
Speaker 4: That's my brain is really hard to wrap around, you know,
Speaker 4: like researching. So that's kind of hard what you do.
Speaker 4: I think researching cases that where people are actually missing,
Speaker 4: and it's actually a really good thing that you do,
Speaker 4: and you know, it makes people think and maybe we
Speaker 4: especially go to a park and yeah I just heard
Speaker 4: about this one guy that's been missing for two years.
Speaker 4: And anyway, it's hard for me to wrap my head
Speaker 4: around the research for that, So thank you for doing that.
Speaker 4: And we'll just stick to our conclusions.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: In one of the the cool byproducts of Joe and
Speaker 3: I covering cases like this is every so often we
Speaker 3: might cover a case that happened ten years ago or
Speaker 3: fifteen years ago, and out of the blue, we'll get
Speaker 3: contacted by the spouse or one of the person's kids
Speaker 3: or another family member and they'll just, you know, they'll
Speaker 3: thank us for continuing to get the message because a
Speaker 3: lot of the cases, most of them are unsolved, and
Speaker 3: the family really just wants anyone in everyone to talk
Speaker 3: about them as much as possible because they're hoping maybe
Speaker 3: somebody hears it and is hiking out there and find something.
Speaker 2: That was actually the most surprising to me. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: we talked about when we were first starting, you kind
Speaker 2: of get nervous. You're like, we're telling the stories of people, Yeah,
Speaker 2: especially families that have had tragedy. You don't know how
Speaker 2: they're going to react, and we're kind of like waiting
Speaker 2: with baited breath, like, yeah, a bunch of hate mail
Speaker 2: from family members and it's not always friendly, it's not over.
Speaker 2: But I mean I can think of one or two
Speaker 2: out of a one hundred and fifty cases I mean,
Speaker 2: normally we don't hear anything, but the majority of them
Speaker 2: not only reach out, they've sent us gifts sometimes like
Speaker 2: it's really neat. It makes us feel better that we're
Speaker 2: doing it. I think the big thing is too we
Speaker 2: try and not disparage people, even if there's people that
Speaker 2: have made some dumb mistakes, because we all make really
Speaker 2: dumb mistakes, and I think a lot of us are
Speaker 2: lucky enough to get out of our dumb mistake, So
Speaker 2: we're not the type of people we're gonna just crap
Speaker 2: all over somebody screwing up and then becoming missing in
Speaker 2: the woods or having a tragedy. No, being respectful is
Speaker 2: always key, but yeah, it's been overwhelmingly supportive, and that's
Speaker 2: been surprising.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a real fine line when you're talking about
Speaker 3: someone's loved one who's still missing and they have no closure,
Speaker 3: no remains even found. There's a real fine line you
Speaker 3: have to walk to not be disrespectful. But also at
Speaker 3: the end of the day, you know, we're providing entertainment.
Speaker 3: Kind of sounds dark, but so Joe and I try
Speaker 3: to always be respectful about the sub but also Joe
Speaker 3: and I also we tell people how we act like
Speaker 3: in the podcast is authentic.
Speaker 2: That's how we are in real life.
Speaker 3: So we try to just be kind of you know,
Speaker 3: who we are, and so some you know, sometimes we'll
Speaker 3: get comments from listeners that we're joking around too much
Speaker 3: during an episode, and I think people miss the point,
Speaker 3: like these are really dark topics and subjects, and uh,
Speaker 3: you know, if we're talking about a location, we might
Speaker 3: crack a few jokes, but when we get into the
Speaker 3: timeline and talking about the missing person, we were never
Speaker 3: you know, we.
Speaker 2: We try our best.
Speaker 3: You know, once in a while probably happens, but we
Speaker 3: try really hard to be respectful of right and you know,
Speaker 3: if we talk about things like suicide, we try to
Speaker 3: provide we you know, we provide the numbers people can
Speaker 3: call if someone's experiencing that. And so, yeah, it's a
Speaker 3: real fine line, especially in this kind of topic, because
Speaker 3: it's understandable people can be real uh mad at you
Speaker 3: and talking about you know, one of their close family
Speaker 3: members that went missing, and you know, they're emotional about it.
Speaker 3: It's understandable, and so yeah, it's that's probably the nicer
Speaker 3: thing about doing cases that have been have gone through
Speaker 3: the legal system. You're it's you know, emotions are probably
Speaker 3: cooled off once the whole case is done. There's closure,
Speaker 3: there's some kind of closure, I.
Speaker 4: Guess, yeah, yeah, yeah, And the same with Nancy and I.
Speaker 4: We you know, I feel like we come at this
Speaker 4: like you, you guys do with humor, and a lot
Speaker 4: of people I think, gravitate to these types of shows
Speaker 4: because there's humor in it, because they are dark topics
Speaker 4: and you can just you just it's too hard to
Speaker 4: get through this day after day and listen all the
Speaker 4: time if all you were listening to was the dark,
Speaker 4: depressing aspect of it. And we never make fun of victims,
Speaker 4: and we try to actually provide information about victims of
Speaker 4: crime and things because we've both worked with them. But
Speaker 4: we have no problem, you know, given a hard time
Speaker 4: to the dirt backs that create.
Speaker 5: The new tongues so mean.
Speaker 4: And w W and D what would Nancy do?
Speaker 2: Still? I tell that story to so.
Speaker 4: Much it's totally legitimate. But on that note, you guys
Speaker 4: came prepared with three stories that are locations unknown, full
Speaker 4: on typical stories that you tell, and you've already told
Speaker 4: this maybe the full version previously. I don't know about
Speaker 4: all of them. But it's maybe one or two of them.
Speaker 4: I don't know. But you're giving us an abbreviated version
Speaker 4: of three stories. So we're pretty excited, and so maybe
Speaker 4: we'll just let you go ahead and get started.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, are we? Are we going to do
Speaker 2: like music and everything.
Speaker 4: I can add that in because I note you have
Speaker 4: to share with me your your file, your MP three
Speaker 4: file for that your intro music.
Speaker 2: Oh I could do them, no, Like, this is how
Speaker 2: we do the show. I do the music live, yea.
Speaker 2: Every time you hear that music, I'm actually controlled.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 2: I'll do the breakdown music just for fun, and I'll
Speaker 2: love everybody's mic on it.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do it because real quick, there was a
Speaker 3: couple episodes where he was gone and I was running
Speaker 3: it all myself and trying to do the episode, and
Speaker 3: I was pressing all the wrong buttons.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 3: So, like, I get Joe a lot of credit because
Speaker 3: he is manning the mother over there and still talking.
Speaker 4: That's like flying a helicopter.
Speaker 2: It's it's a very important skill. The supersedes all all
Speaker 2: their skills in my life. All right, So we're gonna
Speaker 2: do Terrence Woods Pierce. Is that the first one.
Speaker 3: Yep, that's the first one. So all three of these
Speaker 3: we have done on our show before. Usually we do
Speaker 3: about an hour for an episode. We've condensed these down
Speaker 3: so we can get through three of them.
Speaker 2: I'll do the breakdown. He's going the first one just
Speaker 2: for fun and though, okay, we don't have to continue.
Speaker 2: Are you guys ready, I'll do the whole thing. All right, everybody,
Speaker 2: let's gear up and get out to explore locations unknown.
Speaker 2: I just got chills. See now we have to wait
Speaker 2: for a specific part where I start talking. This is
Speaker 2: behind the scenes.
Speaker 4: This is how the sausage is made. I can't believe
Speaker 4: we get to see it. Nancy, look at this, I
Speaker 4: know right.
Speaker 2: On October fifth, twenty eighteen, twenty seven year old freelance
Speaker 2: filmmaker Terrence Woods abruptly ran down a steep slope near
Speaker 2: the Penman Mine during a TV shoot and vanished into
Speaker 2: the dense mountain forest. A large multi day search found
Speaker 2: no trace. Conflicting accounts, terrain challenges, and investigative gaps at
Speaker 2: fueled debate over what happened. Join us this week as
Speaker 2: we investigate the disappearance of Terrence Woods. There it is
Speaker 2: the music. As we start talking about the location information.
Speaker 2: So this story takes place in the Penman Mine in
Speaker 2: the Oral Grande area within the Nez Pierce Clearwater National Forest.
Speaker 2: It's in Idaho County, Idaho. The base of operations is
Speaker 2: in Elk City, Idaho, which is approximately elevation of near
Speaker 2: the near sight of six thousand and real quick, is
Speaker 2: it Pierce or Purse Perse Per?
Speaker 4: I say Purse. We have miss Purse in person. Person.
Speaker 2: We have experts on with us.
Speaker 4: Oh, my gosh, we edit so much.
Speaker 2: We met.
Speaker 4: Hey like you, we've been getting We get emails about
Speaker 4: mispronouncing things.
Speaker 2: Hey, hold on, This is how you know you're starting
Speaker 2: to make it when you start getting all the hate mail. Yes, yes, haters. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So we're talking about the Nez perse National Forest. It
Speaker 2: is two point two million acres roughly and administratively combined
Speaker 2: with Clearwater National Force in twenty twelve. Land span from
Speaker 2: the Oregon border to the Montana border, bounded by the
Speaker 2: Salmon River to the south and Idaho Panhandle and a
Speaker 2: National forest to the north. A heritage so it's the
Speaker 2: traditional homeland of the I can't pronounce this Nimipooh. The
Speaker 2: Nez Perce Forest name reflects this history. I think I
Speaker 2: got that right.
Speaker 4: I think that sounds good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, good, yeah. Yeah. It's extremely mountainous. The mountains
Speaker 2: are about five thousand and seven thousand feet on average
Speaker 2: in elevation. They're a heavy dead fall so Logpole and
Speaker 2: Douglas Fir. It creates pickup sticks quote unquote conditions that
Speaker 2: are hard to traverse. Thick forest understory, so a lot
Speaker 2: of down trees. It's hard, hard to navigate some of
Speaker 2: the climate or seasonal factors that would occur in early October,
Speaker 2: cold nights at elevation. Survival without proper gear is difficult.
Speaker 2: So some of the wildlife in the area. You'll find timberwolves, raccoons, moose,
Speaker 2: black bear, coyote, cougar, elk in, among other smaller species.
Speaker 2: So some of the hazards you might run into steep
Speaker 2: slopes and cliffs, dense deadfall, hypothermia and exposure, very limited
Speaker 2: cell service, sparse population density. There is about two people
Speaker 2: per square mile, cited by the local sheriff. Rapid weather
Speaker 2: changes rain to snow during the search and navigation challenges.
Speaker 2: So Mike tell us about Terrence Woods.
Speaker 3: Yes, So Terrence age twenty seven as of twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2: He was a male.
Speaker 3: He was about one hundred and thirty pounds. He had
Speaker 3: black hair that was shaved tight. His occupation he was
Speaker 3: a filmmaker journalist. He did documentaries and reality TV shows,
Speaker 3: and he had worked internationally in Turkey and also in Alaska.
Speaker 3: He had some experience in the wilderness. He was on
Speaker 3: some rugged shoots, but he had never been in this location.
Speaker 3: We talked about this before the show, but we did
Speaker 3: this episode in twenty twenty, so quite a way is
Speaker 3: back in. Some of the sources we used actually are
Speaker 3: no longer available on the internet.
Speaker 2: But at the time we had.
Speaker 3: The items that were found in a backpack that he
Speaker 3: left on the job site. So and according to our
Speaker 3: sources at the time, the backpack was given back to
Speaker 3: his parents. So it had camera bags, batteries, sharpies, over
Speaker 3: the counter, cough meds, hand cream, an iPhone charger, a
Speaker 3: small folding knife, and a stun gun.
Speaker 6: That's interesting, yeah, so an interesting mix of things.
Speaker 3: But I could not find any source, you know, recent
Speaker 3: sources that mentioned this backpack, So take that with a
Speaker 3: grain of salt.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna trust your original investigation because you're very thorough.
Speaker 3: No, I remember reading a news article with that in it,
Speaker 3: So I don't know why the article's gone now, but
Speaker 3: it is.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 3: He had no known health or medical conditions prior to
Speaker 3: this disappearing, according to family members and recent demeanor, so
Speaker 3: friends said he had sent pre trip texts suggesting he
Speaker 3: didn't really want to go to the site. He was
Speaker 3: reportedly quiet and acting off, and he had sent some
Speaker 3: weird texts back to his father, So we'll get into
Speaker 3: that in a minute. And post incident crew feedback. So
Speaker 3: the production manager later criticized his performance, and some witnesses
Speaker 3: corroborated the sudden sprint down the slope, so we know that.
Speaker 2: Going into timeline again, the one.
Speaker 3: Of the sources that I used had specific times for
Speaker 3: the text messages that I'm about to talk to, but
Speaker 3: more recent articles didn't specifically list the times. So I'll
Speaker 3: list the times, but just remember that in the back
Speaker 3: of your head. So timeline starts in fall of twenty eighteen.
Speaker 3: He's hired by the London based Raw TV production company
Speaker 3: for a series about Penman Mine. The assignment was from
Speaker 3: October first to November mid November, based out of Montana
Speaker 3: in Idaho. On September thirtieth, His father, which is Terrence Senior,
Speaker 3: drops him at a Maryland airport.
Speaker 2: We're now in.
Speaker 3: October, so October first to October fifth of the morning,
Speaker 3: so he's now in Montana. He had texted his father
Speaker 3: that he was in good spirits in that same time
Speaker 3: period on ten four, so this would have been late evening,
Speaker 3: Idaho time. He had text his father that he just
Speaker 3: got to the hotel in Idaho, so we know he's
Speaker 3: in Idaho.
Speaker 2: He's near where he's going to be filming.
Speaker 3: It's now October fifth, about twelve fifty eight am. He
Speaker 3: sends his father a silent video of a canyon river,
Speaker 3: which is kind of strange for that time of night.
Speaker 3: Then again at October fifth, at three am, he calls
Speaker 3: his father and says he's arrived and is okay. So
Speaker 3: that would have been the base in Elk City. Then
Speaker 3: he texts his father again at five forty four am.
Speaker 3: Now he's saying he's coming home early on Wednesday, so
Speaker 3: that would have been October tenth. It's now October fifth,
Speaker 3: it's late afternoon, early evening. He's at the Penman Mine,
Speaker 3: which Joe said is about six thousand feet So while
Speaker 3: they were wrapping for the day, Terrence said he needs
Speaker 3: to relieve himself. His radio is later found on the
Speaker 3: ground and his production manager sees him already fifteen feet
Speaker 3: down a steep slope, sprinting into the forest and he
Speaker 3: the guy said it was like a hare, So like
Speaker 3: a rabbit, just sprinting into the woods. There was a
Speaker 3: short pursuit by some of the production crew, but they
Speaker 3: aborted it to avoid spooking him. And then the crew
Speaker 3: did some checks you know, by the axis road, and
Speaker 3: they didn't find him, so they reported a missing so
Speaker 3: it's now wild.
Speaker 2: He just says, I got to go to the bathroom
Speaker 2: and just sprints off into the woods. Yeah, I mean it.
Speaker 3: I remember covering this at the time and it was
Speaker 3: just bizarre. He was kind of fine one minute and
Speaker 3: then just runs down into the woods.
Speaker 5: So I wonder what a short chase was. I mean,
Speaker 5: you know, when they were chasing him, I wonder if
Speaker 5: that ten yards.
Speaker 2: Two hundred yards?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think at the time we had some
Speaker 3: questions about reports from the crew and what was going
Speaker 3: on with that, and maybe we can get into that
Speaker 3: in five I said, I.
Speaker 2: Vaguely remember talking about how like it sounded like they're
Speaker 2: probably treated him like crap because even after he's missing,
Speaker 2: the production manager seemed to like kind of crap on him. Yeah,
Speaker 2: for how good he was doing, It's like, oh, now's
Speaker 2: maybe not the time though, to speak ill of somebody
Speaker 2: who's missing. Yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 3: So later that day, same day, October fifth, at six
Speaker 3: forty one pm, we we got a nine one to
Speaker 3: one log that notes a mail twenty seven on the
Speaker 3: London based TV crew having a really hard time emotionally
Speaker 3: and not going to respond back to responders. So they
Speaker 3: must have called nine to one one at some point
Speaker 3: after he had run off off. And then between October fifth,
Speaker 3: that evening and October eleventh, there was a very large
Speaker 3: search and rescue operation that went on.
Speaker 2: It was multi county.
Speaker 3: They had ATVs horses, multiple dog teams, they had helicopter
Speaker 3: with heat sensing equipment, and like Joe mentioned in the
Speaker 3: location profile, it's extremely rugged. It seems like every time
Speaker 3: we cover one of these cases, the weather is always bad.
Speaker 3: So they had rain and high elevation snow which hampered
Speaker 3: a lot of the air operations. But they didn't find
Speaker 3: any tracks in the snow, or at least none were
Speaker 3: reported and then by October eleventh, the search was scaled
Speaker 3: back after a week of finding nothing. And then I
Speaker 3: just have a few notes on kind of during and
Speaker 3: after the search and rescue operations. So the crew reportedly
Speaker 3: entered the production's manager's room to collect clothing for dogs,
Speaker 3: and they checked his room room status. There was never
Speaker 3: a subpoena issued for Terrence's phone records or laptop history,
Speaker 3: and the sheriff later opined search and rescue teams believe
Speaker 3: Terrence likely reached the road and left the immediate area,
Speaker 3: but then others doubted. He doubted anyone could run out
Speaker 3: given the deadfall densities, and there's a strange thing going
Speaker 3: on in this part of the country too, So around
Speaker 3: this time, on the October fifth, only four hours later,
Speaker 3: seventy six year old Connie Johnson was reported missing near
Speaker 3: Fog Mountain. And then on October seventh, Jose Menendez Morales,
Speaker 3: he was forty two, was overdue route to Elk City
Speaker 3: and his last contact was in September twenty fifth. And
Speaker 3: on April twenty eighteen, four hunters went missing, two were recovered,
Speaker 3: and two were still missing. So a lot of disappearances
Speaker 3: in this area. It's probably due to how rugged and remote.
Speaker 2: It is so or or something more sinister.
Speaker 3: So really, yeah, real quickly, I'll go just high level
Speaker 3: disappearance theories and then we can open the floor. So
Speaker 3: law enforcement suggested it might have been intentional disappearance or
Speaker 3: a mental health crisis. Family believed it was foul play,
Speaker 3: and other possible scenarios that we we talked about at
Speaker 3: the time was maybe a crew acute crisis leading to
Speaker 3: you know, kind of a voluntary flight. Maybe you know,
Speaker 3: if he had a mental health breakdown. Maybe there might
Speaker 3: have been some kind of suicide suicidal issue, or it
Speaker 3: could have been accident injury. He ran off and then
Speaker 3: was injured and just was never found. Obviously, there's possible
Speaker 3: possibilities of you know, animal involvement, but we deemed that
Speaker 3: pretty unlikely, and the deep end theories was maybe homicide
Speaker 3: by one of the crew or a third party or
Speaker 3: kind of This one was really interesting. It's called call
Speaker 3: of the void, so it's sometimes invoked in wilderness disappearances,
Speaker 3: so it's kind of you get the it's kind of
Speaker 3: I think at the time we talked about how you know,
Speaker 3: sometimes when you're on a high ledge, you're not gonna
Speaker 3: actually jump off, but that thought might just cross your
Speaker 3: mind briefly, because it's just like a strange, strange psychological
Speaker 3: thing that happens in people. And this also happens, I
Speaker 3: guess in the wilderness and that they actually psychologists call
Speaker 3: it call of the void. So it's a it's a
Speaker 3: strange thing that happens to people and then really remote
Speaker 3: situations and they kind of get this strange urge over
Speaker 3: them to just kind of run off. So we said
Speaker 3: that was just a very less likely theory. But I
Speaker 3: don't know, what does everyone think?
Speaker 4: I have a theory? Okay, the min's out mine's kind
Speaker 4: of out there. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if
Speaker 4: it's how far out there, but I'm I'm thinking foul play.
Speaker 4: So I contacted a friend of mine who's was the
Speaker 4: special agent in charge for the BLM in that area.
Speaker 4: This is for service, but he dealt with the same
Speaker 4: kind of country in that area where all the minds
Speaker 4: are and stuff that they had to deal with, and
Speaker 4: he said that they had issues with you know, this
Speaker 4: is on the BLM was where he worked, but it's
Speaker 4: the same thing in the forest Service they have issues with,
Speaker 4: you know, occupancy, trespassed, so like people still have mineral
Speaker 4: rights to a lot of those whatever claims, mineral claims
Speaker 4: and some of those minds, but they're not allowed to
Speaker 4: live there. But people come in and they build their
Speaker 4: little shanty cabins and homestead you know, and are there illegally.
Speaker 4: So I imagine that happens a little bit in the
Speaker 4: for Service as well. And one thought one of the
Speaker 4: first things I thought it was maybe he was running
Speaker 4: straight into almost like a you know when you run
Speaker 4: into a Marria marijuana grow or something like that, but
Speaker 4: not maybe not that, but something where somebody's homesteading they've
Speaker 4: got a claim on a mine. And also I kind
Speaker 4: of hate saying this, but that part of Idaho and
Speaker 4: similar to the Panhandle, a lot of sovereign citizens, a
Speaker 4: lot of there used to be Arian nations and they
Speaker 4: got rid of Aerian nations or they don't not as
Speaker 4: big anymore, but there's still a lot of that white supremacy.
Speaker 4: And this was a young man of.
Speaker 2: Color, right, yeah, African American.
Speaker 1: Ye.
Speaker 4: So I don't know, so anyway, that's I just feel
Speaker 4: like there might have been some foul play where there
Speaker 4: was just accidentally ran into something that he saw something
Speaker 4: he shouldn't have seen. And then, as my friend put it,
Speaker 4: you know, he's like they these people know where all
Speaker 4: the mines are that, you know, good place to get
Speaker 4: rid of some situation.
Speaker 2: Be able to answer along those lines, if they had
Speaker 2: groups like that in the area, would that ever show
Speaker 2: up in a sorrow or police report as like a
Speaker 2: potential thing or like that they say, Okay, we investigate,
Speaker 2: looked in these areas and we stumbled across home steading situation,
Speaker 2: or we stumbled across these people. I don't know that
Speaker 2: would show up in the report or not, or if
Speaker 2: they would just say, we searched this area and he
Speaker 2: was not found.
Speaker 4: Well, if the I would think they if they interviewed somebody,
Speaker 4: they would say, but I mean, if you're talking about
Speaker 4: the county sheriff's office maybe being the lead law enforcement,
Speaker 4: so it wouldn't be federal. It wouldn't be a federal
Speaker 4: law enforcement. It would be because the jurisdiction is proprietary. So
Speaker 4: anything that happens to a human, you know, a person,
Speaker 4: it's the state and local that investigate. So they could
Speaker 4: have said, you know, in their report, they might have said,
Speaker 4: we interviewed so and so and so and so. I
Speaker 4: don't know that the state and local gives a you know,
Speaker 4: cares at all. If there are people homesteading, you know
Speaker 4: and living there illegally, in the FORIG service would care,
Speaker 4: But I don't know if the state local would care,
Speaker 4: So it might not be a big thing to them.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 5: And if they have a lot of them out there,
Speaker 5: it might just be too many for them to care about.
Speaker 2: Can I just leave him alone? Kind of? Yeah, the
Speaker 2: situation like, we don't we won't bug you exactly.
Speaker 5: Yes, that's exactly right.
Speaker 3: I really like that theory. I don't think it's that
Speaker 3: having you to explain it the way you did. I
Speaker 3: don't think it's that much of a deep end theory.
Speaker 3: I could picture some guy like way out off the grid,
Speaker 3: maybe kind of a little crazy, and some random person
Speaker 3: in the middle of the night comes running into his
Speaker 3: you know air quotes probably yeah, easily see him getting
Speaker 3: smooth and shooting him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then he's like, oh, no, what about done?
Speaker 3: Yeah, no one saw me do this, so let's just
Speaker 3: clean this up and act like nothing happened.
Speaker 5: And like she said, she you know, they know where
Speaker 5: all the holes are, so yeah.
Speaker 2: An abandoned mine perfect yup, something as terrifying to think
Speaker 2: of if he gives accidentally stumble upon something like that,
Speaker 2: and just yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Mean yeah, I mean a lot of those people are
Speaker 3: very very territorial.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, for the reason they're not integrated in society.
Speaker 4: Well even even you know, sovereign citizens dealing for law enforcements.
Speaker 4: To deal with sovereign citizens, it's even hard for your
Speaker 4: your A lot of times the only law they recognize
Speaker 4: is from that of the sheriff. But even then they
Speaker 4: probably don't want to deal with them either. You know,
Speaker 4: it's probably like I don't want to deal with them, yes, exactly,
Speaker 4: I know my.
Speaker 2: Yes spot off things that aren't right, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So anyway, that's mine. I don't know what else
Speaker 4: you got.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, it could be a grow also, I
Speaker 5: mean he could have he could have walked into a
Speaker 5: big marijuana grow or some something like that. And they're
Speaker 5: very protective, you know, because a lot of times their
Speaker 5: families are back in Mexico and if they don't produce,
Speaker 5: you know, bad things happen to their families. So you know,
Speaker 5: I've been in with some of those girls, and you know,
Speaker 5: you you rate a camp and there's you know, high
Speaker 5: powered rifles and things like that in the camp, so
Speaker 5: it's not far fetched to have that happen either, So
Speaker 5: that's also a possibility. So straight, that's right.
Speaker 2: See, it's a little terrifying with you be you both
Speaker 2: being former Rangers and having experience immediately jumping to oh,
Speaker 2: it's probably.
Speaker 4: This, it's foul playing. We know it's foul play.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's uh, that's terrifying.
Speaker 3: Having them described it does it makes more sense. It
Speaker 3: makes more sense. I mean, I can definitely see to
Speaker 3: your point. If you're running one of those operations and
Speaker 3: your whole family's life depends on the USNE, you will
Speaker 3: do whatever it takes to not cause any problems and
Speaker 3: continue producing. So that that either means like getting rid
Speaker 3: of this strange random person that just walked into it,
Speaker 3: or my family dies. Like yeah, I could see why
Speaker 3: if he stumbled upon something like especially in the middle
Speaker 3: of the night, like probably game over.
Speaker 2: That's why I never bushwhack. Yeah, yeah, trails, Yes, so
Speaker 2: I know, I like both here, I don't even remember
Speaker 2: what I don't remember alrighty, so that was right. I
Speaker 2: think mine was kind of went crazy and got lost,
Speaker 2: and then that they just couldn't find him. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: like he fell in some sort of cavern cavernous hole
Speaker 2: or something.
Speaker 3: There's still the question of what happened to him to
Speaker 3: cause him to just sprint away from the production crew.
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 2: I think what you were saying before was based on
Speaker 2: his texting habits, and it's there's some mental thing going on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, or the crew was you know, so bad to
Speaker 3: him that he kind of broke down and he's like,
Speaker 3: I just got to get out of here. Maybe he
Speaker 3: thought I'll I'll sprint down to the road and hitchhike
Speaker 3: back in the town or something.
Speaker 2: I can't stand another hour are here, Yeah, and then
Speaker 2: right into a grow yeah, or or sovereign sovereign citizen
Speaker 2: or sovereign citizen home setting his grow he and.
Speaker 4: His clandestine meth lab on the side.
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. I know. I think both those theories are.
Speaker 2: I feel like if they've found that in the search,
Speaker 2: it would be on the report.
Speaker 4: That's read if I heard about that, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe like walking up and seeing off the distance, like, hey, Bob,
Speaker 3: did we already search this area?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Right, Hey, but you know what they they're there's they're
Speaker 4: they're good at hiding those things too, so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: but anyway, Yeah, I hope that someday they find they
Speaker 4: get answers, and I hope that whatever happened wasn't so
Speaker 4: horrific and torturing and you know to this young man.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the hardest part in the cases where there's
Speaker 3: no remains or anything found, because the family doesn't get
Speaker 3: any kind of closure from it. At least if mains
Speaker 3: are found, it's kind of like, all right, sadly, we
Speaker 3: know what happened. Yeah, so this day there's still probably
Speaker 3: they have no clue what happened to him. I mean, yep, yeah,
Speaker 3: So that's the hardest part for these that where they
Speaker 3: just kind of vanish.
Speaker 4: So that was a good story, thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that one that was one of my favorite from
Speaker 3: back in the day because it was just so puzzling
Speaker 3: what happened to him. It just you know, on a product,
Speaker 3: and it was the guy that was the host of
Speaker 3: the show is from the He's been on the other
Speaker 3: show back in the day that I used to watch
Speaker 3: all the.
Speaker 2: Time, gold Rush, Yes Channel.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Dave turn was the guy who was kind of
Speaker 3: the host of this show that they were filming, and
Speaker 3: so it was kind of kind of tied that into
Speaker 3: it as well. So very interesting, bit nostalgic for you. Yeah,
Speaker 3: this show is still on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, surprisingly all right, all right, should we go to
Speaker 2: the next one?
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's do it, all right.
Speaker 2: I don't have to do the music on this one's
Speaker 2: going to take us to Mountain time and Rocky Mountain
Speaker 2: National Park. So on Wednesday, September twenty seventh and twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three, forty nine year old trail runner Chad Planche
Speaker 2: set out on a demanding twenty eight mile route in
Speaker 2: Rocky Mountain National Park, intending to cross the Continental Divide
Speaker 2: with stretches of off trail talus. Around noon, he texted
Speaker 2: that he was near Mount Alice. He never checked in
Speaker 2: later and was reported overdue on September twenty eighth. A
Speaker 2: large multi day search and rescue operation found no confirmed clues.
Speaker 2: Broad scale search was suspended on October tenth and twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three. In the case remains open in limited and
Speaker 2: slash continuous mode to this day. So little facts about
Speaker 2: Rocky Mountain National Park. It is four hundred and fifteen
Speaker 2: square miles or two hundred and sixty five thousand acres.
Speaker 2: It was established on January twenty sixth, nineteen fifteen. It
Speaker 2: is located in north central Colorado between EST's Park and
Speaker 2: Grand Lake, and the Continental Divide does run through the park.
Speaker 2: As of twenty twenty two, it sees about four point
Speaker 2: three million visitors per year, updated to twenty twenty four
Speaker 2: to four point one five million visitors, so down a
Speaker 2: little bit and notable features around notable route features. This
Speaker 2: was Chad's plan. Areas mentioned by NPS's possible travel quarridors
Speaker 2: include Lake Verna, mount Alice, Chief's Head Peak, Black Lake Mills,
Speaker 2: Lake Flat Top Mountain, and his vehicle was found at
Speaker 2: the North Inlet trailhead on the west side of the park.
Speaker 2: So some of the hazards that you'd run into there's
Speaker 2: a very high relief, so it goes from seven eight
Speaker 2: hundred and sixty feet to fourteen two hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: nine feet. There are steep Talus cliff ridges, lingering snow
Speaker 2: and ice at elevation. Trail Ridge Road tops out at
Speaker 2: twelve one hundred and eighty three feet, so there's rapid
Speaker 2: weather shifts and strong winds are common in the area.
Speaker 2: Getting into some of the climate it's alpine slash sub
Speaker 2: alpine mountain climate with frequent year round storms at elevation.
Speaker 2: Our friends at the Cope and Timate classification System called
Speaker 2: it Subarctic conditions characterized by high zones extreme snowfall events
Speaker 2: that occur when cold Arctic air meets Gulf moisture along
Speaker 2: the front range. So Mike tell us about Chad.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, Chad was forty nine years old at the
Speaker 3: time of his disappearance. He was a male five foot seven,
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty five pounds. He had brown hair
Speaker 3: and blue eyes. His experience, he was a very fit,
Speaker 3: experienced trail runner. He had done numerous Rocky Mountain National
Speaker 3: Park routes and he's done thirty ascents of Long's Peak
Speaker 3: and this was per National Park Service. And like Joe mentioned,
Speaker 3: his planned route and gear. So it was twenty eight
Speaker 3: miles crossing the divide with some off trail talis likely
Speaker 3: he had a black ultra light jacket, black running shoot shorts, leggings,
Speaker 3: gray waist pack, and he did carry a GPS, but
Speaker 3: it did not have the SOS capability. Timeline, So it
Speaker 3: starts off Wednesday, September twenty seventh of twenty twenty three,
Speaker 3: around noon, he texts his family indicates he's near Mount Alice.
Speaker 2: By Thursday, September twenty eighth, he was.
Speaker 3: Reported overdue, and pretty quickly rangers find his vehicle at
Speaker 3: the North Inlet trailhead on the west side. By Friday
Speaker 3: September twenty ninth to October first, the search and rescue
Speaker 3: operation expands. They had assets in the air, they had
Speaker 3: ground teams on the west side and east side of
Speaker 3: the divide around Mount Alis So again they had some
Speaker 3: high winds that actually hampered the air search around that time.
Speaker 3: By Saturday, October seventh, this would be day ten, there
Speaker 3: were seventy seven people involved in the search, three dog teams,
Speaker 3: they had a State drone team, and they had additional
Speaker 3: hires imagery equipment on a helicopter, and they were kind
Speaker 3: of doing aerial overviews of the area where they thought.
Speaker 2: He could be.
Speaker 3: But sadly, by Tuesday, October tenth, the broad scale search
Speaker 3: was suspended. And like Joe and I always mentioned, in
Speaker 3: a lot of cases, even though they ramped down the search,
Speaker 3: it kind of continues in a limited mode. So from
Speaker 3: other cases, you know, sometimes the National Park Service will
Speaker 3: do training operations in areas where someone went missing, just
Speaker 3: maybe in the chance that they find something during that.
Speaker 3: So you know, it's in a limited continuous mode, and
Speaker 3: like I said, the case remains open to this day.
Speaker 3: Human remains human remains were found near the Alpine Visitors
Speaker 3: Center in June of twenty twenty five, but they were
Speaker 3: identified as a different individual, So that is also kind
Speaker 3: of terrifying that someone else's remains were out there that
Speaker 3: they found.
Speaker 4: Oh, I thought there was only two people missing, Chad
Speaker 4: and one another who supposedly was near that area. So
Speaker 4: that's I'd heard remains were found, but I didn't hear.
Speaker 3: Yeah this This individual's name was Stephen, Noto. I don't
Speaker 3: know if that yeah, so, but they said it was
Speaker 3: not linked to this case. So I actually have a
Speaker 3: question for for the both of you.
Speaker 2: Have you ever been a part of or in service
Speaker 2: during in an area where they've been doing training and
Speaker 2: like found remains or found something related to a case
Speaker 2: that went cold.
Speaker 5: When I worked for the Forest Service, one of my
Speaker 5: I wasn't there unseen, but one of my employees, a hunter,
Speaker 5: found a human skull and reported it to the Forest Service,
Speaker 5: and that was on the in the Buffalo Wyoming area,
Speaker 5: So they definitely did some turned it over to the
Speaker 5: county sheriff and then the investigations started from there.
Speaker 2: So it happens, but like found out who it was or.
Speaker 5: You know, I can't remember for sure if they if
Speaker 5: they found out who it was, but there was definitely
Speaker 5: human remains that they found in that area.
Speaker 2: That's terrifying. I don't ever, I don't ever want to
Speaker 2: stumble upon human remains.
Speaker 4: And so Nancy and I say, why haven't we found
Speaker 4: any human remains? And we say that all the time,
Speaker 4: like people people other people discovered and were like, well,
Speaker 4: how come that all were done there?
Speaker 2: That it would be really good for the ratings of
Speaker 2: the shows, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3: It'd be kind of cool to know that your discovery
Speaker 3: might have might close a case.
Speaker 2: That's a better way. Yeah, that's the way I met.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's what we mean to of course.
Speaker 3: We all mean the good party. Yes, yes, so real quickly.
Speaker 3: Most here's just the plausible theories. So the one that
Speaker 3: a lot of people at the time said was the
Speaker 3: most likely was an environmental misadventure, so navigational air slip
Speaker 3: fall and steep talus areas, or exposure from sudden high
Speaker 3: elevation weather, and this would be consistent with the route difficulty, elevations,
Speaker 3: and timing.
Speaker 2: I'll just say real quick, if people aren't familiar with
Speaker 2: tallis that's scree So it's like those really rocky parts
Speaker 2: where it's broken up where you're sliding around every time
Speaker 2: you're climbing out him on a ridge.
Speaker 3: So yes, Another possibility would be a medical event, so
Speaker 3: sudden illness or altitude related impairment leading to a fall.
Speaker 3: He was obviously very fit and experienced, and he had
Speaker 3: no prior, no prior medical issues that were released, So
Speaker 3: I mean it could have happened.
Speaker 5: And I gotta tell you, I got sorry. I gotta
Speaker 5: tell you. I've talked to a ranger at Rocky Mountain
Speaker 5: and he actually had a bear can stashed along the road,
Speaker 5: so it was used to resupply himself while he was
Speaker 5: doing this, And he had planned this for a long time.
Speaker 5: He even had They found that he had videos of
Speaker 5: a pre plan that he had videotaped different areas, so
Speaker 5: he he definitely was prepared to do what he was
Speaker 5: going to do, even though he wasn't dressed kind of
Speaker 5: how we would be dressed, but he seemed to be
Speaker 5: prepared to do whatever.
Speaker 2: And he wasn't dressed how we dressed, but he had
Speaker 2: done the route so many times. I guess correct, you
Speaker 2: had an idea of what his body needed to do that.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's very it's fair.
Speaker 3: Well, I guess, yeah, let's just jump right in. What
Speaker 3: what do you two think happened to him? I guess,
Speaker 3: And you've talked to someone that was at the park
Speaker 3: at the time too well.
Speaker 5: And the person that I talked to that was actually
Speaker 5: on the search. They you know when that when they
Speaker 5: do kind of a hasty search, you know, right when
Speaker 5: it happens, And this is what most national parks do,
Speaker 5: I know we did it in Yellowstone like this, but
Speaker 5: they send out a call for as many people as
Speaker 5: they can get to come and help do the search.
Speaker 5: And so you know, they'll have a like a climbing
Speaker 5: ranger that is with a special agent and you and
Speaker 5: a lot of times the climbing ranger is not law enforcement.
Speaker 5: They're they're just there as climbing rangers, and so they're
Speaker 5: used to that terrain and things like that. And you know,
Speaker 5: the helicopters they had, even though not all of them
Speaker 5: were up at the same time, but you know, they
Speaker 5: had a medical ship that was flying around, you know,
Speaker 5: if they were out and about looking military. You know,
Speaker 5: the Sheriff's office just all kinds of trying to do
Speaker 5: the air operations because, like you mentioned, the terrain is
Speaker 5: it's amazing that they get anybody up there, you know,
Speaker 5: to do those searches at all, because it is really
Speaker 5: it's a strenuous thing. But but I did like what
Speaker 5: you know, they they do have that what did you
Speaker 5: call that where they were flying around and taking videos
Speaker 5: of out of the helicopter. What did you call that?
Speaker 2: Clear? No, it's like an imaging system.
Speaker 5: Yes, the imaging system.
Speaker 2: Paul Miller case. It takes thousands of pictures. Oh that minute,
Speaker 2: it was like a mosaic ocre then it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they run it through probably AI or something, and
Speaker 3: it looks for anything that would be out of place
Speaker 3: from the natural environment, like a backpack or a handy wrapper.
Speaker 5: Or anything or maybe like a I don't know, a
Speaker 5: broken branch or rocks that have slid. But they had
Speaker 5: they have a team of people that that's all they
Speaker 5: do is look at that all day long to try
Speaker 5: and look and see just what you just said, to
Speaker 5: see if there's anything out of the ordinary that would
Speaker 5: lead them in a direction that they could go.
Speaker 2: So how often does this initial force that you go
Speaker 2: out like end up finding the person? So like, when
Speaker 2: this initial forces called out, do they typically run into
Speaker 2: the individual that they're looking for relatively quickly?
Speaker 5: Or that's a good question and I never asked that,
Speaker 5: But what do you think, Tara? I imagine that you know,
Speaker 5: you don't want to hear about the cases that they
Speaker 5: find the people.
Speaker 4: It's all over the place. Yeah, it just depends on
Speaker 4: what actually happened. And like I think Nancy and I
Speaker 4: said when we were doing the show before, but a
Speaker 4: lot of the searches that we've been on there was
Speaker 4: no conclusion and nobody was found, and most of them
Speaker 4: were water. And then there's the bastard search. I'm sure
Speaker 4: people did a bastard search, which is where you maybe
Speaker 4: go back to their house, or you go to their car,
Speaker 4: or you find their friends, and that's where they're sitting
Speaker 4: there having a beer and eating a pizza and you're like,
Speaker 4: you bastard. That's why it's called the bastard search. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so that's literally why it's called bastard search. So you
Speaker 4: got somebody doing the bastard search. You've got the people's
Speaker 4: you know, heading out in full force because a lot
Speaker 4: of times, when when did you say he was reported missing?
Speaker 4: Or how was he reported missing?
Speaker 3: He was reported overdue, So he texted his family on
Speaker 3: September twenty seventh, and he was reported overdue the next day,
Speaker 3: and then the following day. From on Friday, September twenty
Speaker 3: ninth is when the search and rescue mission really started
Speaker 3: in force. And then that that went until October tenth.
Speaker 5: You know, on that October tenth, they you know, it's
Speaker 5: really hard for the park Service to cut something, you know,
Speaker 5: cut it off because you know it's uh, but this
Speaker 5: one was weather. I mean they they got snow and
Speaker 5: they got, you know, some weather that came in, and
Speaker 5: you can imagine on a fourteen or in Rocky Mountain,
Speaker 5: it's not a skiff of snow. It's a you know,
Speaker 5: we're talking some feet of snow. And then that it's
Speaker 5: just dangerous for those that are doing the search to
Speaker 5: continue to do that. And I was told that in
Speaker 5: that area that where he went missing, it's a seven
Speaker 5: to nine mile hike just to get to the search area,
Speaker 5: so you would be exhausted I would be exhausted by
Speaker 5: the time you got to where you needed to start
Speaker 5: searching for him. So I think that's why a lot
Speaker 5: of that stuff was done by air was because it's
Speaker 5: just it's really taxing to have people hike that much
Speaker 5: just to get to where they're going to start the search.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you've got They had seventy seven people
Speaker 3: out there one day. I mean that's you know, someone's
Speaker 3: that's seventy seven people you have to make sure come
Speaker 3: back from the search that day. Yeah, it's not just
Speaker 3: like searching a forest here in Wisconsin, you know, flat ground, I.
Speaker 5: Mean, right, And they had actually where.
Speaker 2: There's no joke too. I remember right Long's Peak. I
Speaker 2: couldn't summit Long's Peak because we made it up to
Speaker 2: Keyhole and a blizzard hits and the snow was going
Speaker 2: up because it was like the edge of the mountain
Speaker 2: and it was literally I looked out in your keyhole
Speaker 2: where you got to climb out on this ledge and
Speaker 2: go around, and the snow was going up in the
Speaker 2: air from the wind. I was like, all right, we're
Speaker 2: not We're not doing this. I have a podcast I
Speaker 2: don't want that's right, That's right.
Speaker 5: No, that's true. I mean I've ridden on horseback before
Speaker 5: and it's been a white out and I had to
Speaker 5: trust the horse to get me to the trailhead because
Speaker 5: I had no idea, you know, where we were, and
Speaker 5: and you know, the horse knows where the barn is,
Speaker 5: so thank goodness on that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think so the horse can navigate without sight.
Speaker 5: Essentially he did because we like I said, I could
Speaker 5: hardly see in front of the horse that it was
Speaker 5: that bad.
Speaker 2: Dog Dayah too.
Speaker 3: I go sometimes with family up into northern Wisconsin Kraus hunting,
Speaker 3: and we'll have either a short hair when my dad's dog,
Speaker 3: he has a Golden Retriever. When was younger, it would
Speaker 3: go and you could get several miles into the woods.
Speaker 3: And we've been turned around a few times. But as
Speaker 3: soon as you tell the dog, all right, let's go
Speaker 3: back to the truck, they know, yeah, it will take
Speaker 3: you back to the truck.
Speaker 2: Like they know it's probably you smell, I mean exactly.
Speaker 5: So yeah, so it's unfortunate that the weather moved in
Speaker 5: on these guys. You know, they just had to scale
Speaker 5: it way back, you know, to continue.
Speaker 2: With the type of gary running. If you get hit
Speaker 2: with weather like that, it can be very detrimental real quick.
Speaker 2: And it was interesting the bastard search. Because a sidebar here.
Speaker 3: We recently had a guy in Wisconsin who got convicted,
Speaker 3: so he left his wife and kids.
Speaker 2: But the way he did it was he.
Speaker 3: Went kayaking on a lake about three hours north of here.
Speaker 3: He's from the suburbs of Milwaukee, and he faked his
Speaker 3: own disappearance. He flipped his kayak, he used another little
Speaker 3: dinghy or something to get to shore, and he fled
Speaker 3: to eastern Europe and eventually the federal government found him
Speaker 3: and convinced him to come home, and they charged him
Speaker 3: thirty thousand dollars for eighty nine days of searching, and
Speaker 3: so yeah cheap, yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it actually it does.
Speaker 3: But yeah, he got convicted and he has to pay
Speaker 3: the thirty thousand dollars for the search and rescue.
Speaker 2: There's one more like that, and this was a few
Speaker 2: years ago. There's a woman in Iceland in a tour group.
Speaker 2: Have you guys heard this one where she ended up
Speaker 2: in a search and rescue looking for herself?
Speaker 4: What some drunk drunk guy doing that?
Speaker 2: So apparently she had changed her clothing and the people
Speaker 2: in the tour group didn't know, so they thought she
Speaker 2: was missing. So she's with them and they're like, we're
Speaker 2: looking for somebody wearing these clothes, and she didn't realize
Speaker 2: that's what she was wearing. So she was a part
Speaker 2: of her own because she realized it and found herself.
Speaker 4: Oh oh wow, that's a good story.
Speaker 3: So I guess to wrap up, Chad, do you guys
Speaker 3: feel that he probably just slipped and had some kind
Speaker 3: of accident and they.
Speaker 2: Probably won't find remains.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think. Wasn't there a park ranger that the
Speaker 4: same thing happened, went missing and they found him a
Speaker 4: couple of years later in Rocky? I think, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think we might have covered that case.
Speaker 3: Was he a long standing park ranger like years?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I think I remember that he might.
Speaker 4: Have, and he was. I think he was found just
Speaker 4: buy another hiker right eventually or.
Speaker 5: I can't remember who followed him, but I know he
Speaker 5: was found.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: I think for me this one is he probably had
Speaker 3: a slip or in a fall, and it's so Rocky
Speaker 3: and just like you said, it's they can't send rangers
Speaker 3: down every little crevice and there's just no way and
Speaker 3: if he's obscured by you know, if he fell and
Speaker 3: then maybe some rocks and stuff fell or snow fell
Speaker 3: on top of him, then you're not going to see
Speaker 3: him from the air when they do the aerials searching
Speaker 3: for sure.
Speaker 2: I think this one was, yeah, sadly, and.
Speaker 5: He was in a popular area, you know. I was
Speaker 5: told that that was a popular hiking trail that he
Speaker 5: was on. But he did go off trail, like you said,
Speaker 5: into the Talus, So maybe something at that point. Yeah, say, but.
Speaker 2: In Joe, that's the ending of our cases. Yeah, right,
Speaker 2: this is why it's like, that's why we enter show.
Speaker 2: We're like, and let us know what you think. All right,
Speaker 2: let's move on to our third and final case we're
Speaker 2: going to cover, bringing us to Sierra National Forest. On
Speaker 2: July twenty twenty, hikers in Sierra National Forest in California
Speaker 2: found an abandoned, ransacked campsite near Johnson Meadows. Days later,
Speaker 2: multiple hikers reported a barefoot, bruised woman who refused help.
Speaker 2: Her car was later found crashed on a remote force road.
Speaker 2: Weeks after that, a sleeping bag believed to be hers,
Speaker 2: turned up just inside Yosemite. A subsequent hunter siding again
Speaker 2: described a woman matching Sandra. Despite multi agency searches, no
Speaker 2: confirmed trace was ever recovered. The case remains open today,
Speaker 2: and we're talking about the case of Sandra Johnson Hughes.
Speaker 2: So this one takes place in Sierra National Forest, western slope,
Speaker 2: central Sierra, Nevada and California. The sub area is Johnson Meadows,
Speaker 2: beautiful but isolated, not typical for casual hikers. So this
Speaker 2: is about one point three million acres. It's slightly smaller
Speaker 2: than Delaware borders Yosemite National Park, Inyo National Forest, and
Speaker 2: Kings Canyon National Park, as well as Sequoia National Forest.
Speaker 2: It was established in eighteen ninety three and seas roughly
Speaker 2: one point five one point zero five million visitors per year.
Speaker 2: A little history of the habitation of the area. Human
Speaker 2: presence has been there for at least thirteen thousand, five
Speaker 2: hundred years, so Paleo Indian and the Clovis people, there's
Speaker 2: evidence that they are there as well as later indigenous
Speaker 2: cultures are friends at the COPE and climate classification systems
Speaker 2: say it's a Mediterranean cool slash wet winters, warm, dry summers.
Speaker 2: The wettest band at five thousand and six thousand feet
Speaker 2: on west slope. Summer thunderstorms are common, rapid weather shifts
Speaker 2: possible year round. Some little information about the terrain from
Speaker 2: oak foothills to dense mid elevation forests and alpine high
Speaker 2: Sierra elevations from nine hundred feet all the way up
Speaker 2: to thirteen nine hundred feet which is Mount Humphreys, Mount
Speaker 2: gab Bear Creek Spire and Red Slate Mountain. A little
Speaker 2: bit about the hazards and difficulty again, weather, sudden storms, hail, lightning,
Speaker 2: snow possible at any month at elevation, and high water
Speaker 2: during the snow melt. Some of the wildlife you'll run
Speaker 2: into Black Bear Mountain, lion, coyote, bobcat, foxes, rattlesnake and
Speaker 2: other animals. And just in general there's remote roads and trails,
Speaker 2: off trail, talus or brush navigation challenges. It's standard backcountry precautions,
Speaker 2: so you want to be sharing your itinerary, wearing extra
Speaker 2: layers of food, bring water, map, compass, and always cautions
Speaker 2: while stream crossings and lightning. Lightning safety is an issue
Speaker 2: when you're exposed, as well as the effects of altitude.
Speaker 2: So Mike about Sandra, Yeah, So Sandra.
Speaker 3: Date of birth July twenty sixth of nineteen sixty six.
Speaker 3: She went missing on July fourth of twenty twenty. She
Speaker 3: was a female, age fifty four. She was five to three,
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty pounds, shit brown hair and it
Speaker 3: was possibly dyed blue at the time. She had brown eyes,
Speaker 3: so we do not have a reporting of the gear
Speaker 3: clothing she was wearing at the time of her disappearance.
Speaker 3: Background and experienced, so she was an accountant by trade.
Speaker 3: She did study wilderness survival and once considered becoming a
Speaker 3: park ranger. Personality, she was described as independent, would frequently
Speaker 3: refuse assistance, but practical obviously she would accept help if
Speaker 3: seriously injured. She did live kind of a nomadic lifestyle,
Speaker 3: and she had recently moved from Maui to California. During
Speaker 3: the research, there was no medical issues that we could find,
Speaker 3: so assuming a pretty healthy individual timeline.
Speaker 2: So we're darning.
Speaker 3: In June twenty sixth of twenty twenty, she had told
Speaker 3: family she was going to solo hiking camp in the
Speaker 3: Sierra National Forest and might reach Yosemite. Like I said,
Speaker 3: she recently moved from Maui and she sought solitude during
Speaker 3: the pandemic on July second of twenty twenty, hikers discovered
Speaker 3: a disheveled camp near Johnson Meadows. Gear was strewn about.
Speaker 3: The Maderra County Sheriff's Office notify was notified and later
Speaker 3: confirmed personal items at you know belonged to Sandra's July
Speaker 3: fourth of twenty twenty now, so this would be the
Speaker 3: last confirmed sighting. So she was near the Chequido Lake
Speaker 3: trailhead in Sierra National Forests. She was barefoot, she had
Speaker 3: a facial bruise, she had a black shirt on blue jeans,
Speaker 3: and she declined help. Notes from the law enforcement reports
Speaker 3: also mentioned motorists offering help after a low speed crash
Speaker 3: and she walked away. So very interesting that a couple
Speaker 3: different instances she could have been rescued from whatever happened
Speaker 3: to her. It sounds like a car crash and she refused.
Speaker 3: So it's now July fifth of twenty twenty. This is
Speaker 3: when her vehicle was located. So she drove a silver
Speaker 3: SOB nine to five and was found on road five
Speaker 3: S zero four, But a family post actually mentioned it
Speaker 3: was five S seven zero, so a little bit of
Speaker 3: conflicting information there. It looked like a low speed impact.
Speaker 3: According to law enforcement, no airbags deployed. The car did
Speaker 3: roll into a ravine, but there was no reported blood.
Speaker 3: Contents were rummaged and strewn, kind of similar to what
Speaker 3: happened to the campsite. A note was left on the
Speaker 3: windshield for Sandra and the area around the car was
Speaker 3: searched but found no sign of her. By July eighth
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty, this is when the search and rescue
Speaker 3: operation really started to ramp up. The MCSO with a
Speaker 3: multi agency search with county Search and Rescue teams, cal
Speaker 3: oes and California Air National Guard for aerial searching. On
Speaker 3: July twelfth of twenty twenty, this would be when the
Speaker 3: sleeping bag was discovered. So a sleeping bag believed to
Speaker 3: be Sandra's was found two point five miles north of
Speaker 3: the car inside Yosemite near Spotted Lake, and according to
Speaker 3: the searchers, it appeared that it was recently used. Again,
Speaker 3: extensive searching of the area yielded no additional evidence. So
Speaker 3: the camp site, then the car, then the sleeping bag
Speaker 3: all kind of showed that she was moving north based
Speaker 3: on what searchers had said in the report, so you
Speaker 3: can kind of get a general idea that she was,
Speaker 3: you know, kind of the rough direction she was going.
Speaker 3: By July thirteenth of twenty twenty, the Air National Guard
Speaker 3: now had brought in a Blackhawk to assist with the
Speaker 3: aerial searching. Unfortunately, by July twentieth of twenty twenty, the
Speaker 3: search is scaled back. So the search went on for
Speaker 3: about two weeks and the case moved kind of into
Speaker 3: an investigation limited search mode. The public was asked to
Speaker 3: watch areas around that lake, the Chain Lakes base, and
Speaker 3: near the Yosemite border. Now this is interesting. On August
Speaker 3: ninth of twenty twenty, we have a hunter sighting. So
Speaker 3: two hunters reported a woman matching Sandra along Road five
Speaker 3: S zero one near Basore Road and Portuguese Creek, issues
Speaker 3: thinner alone, no visible gear, and again declined contact. When
Speaker 3: law enforcement heard this, they mobilized and did a search
Speaker 3: of the area, but again they did not find anything.
Speaker 3: So very very bizarre, and by late twenty twenty, unfortunately,
Speaker 3: there was the Creek fire and pretty much a lot
Speaker 3: of the area that was searched initially was burned in
Speaker 3: the creek fire. Any chance of kind of going back
Speaker 3: out there and doing more searches was kind of that
Speaker 3: possibility was over due to the fire, unfortunately.
Speaker 2: But then on.
Speaker 3: July twenty first of twenty twenty one, there was this
Speaker 3: reported Spooky Meadow incident. So family on an outing near
Speaker 3: a shut Eye Peak, which is five miles south of
Speaker 3: Johnson Meadows, reported their child describing a woman in a
Speaker 3: black shirt with blue hair needing help. Deputies escorted the
Speaker 3: family to the site and again after searching the area,
Speaker 3: no tracks or evidence were found, and to this day
Speaker 3: the case remains open. So this is a very very
Speaker 3: strange case. So real quick theories and then we'll open
Speaker 3: the floor. So law enforcements found no evidence of serious
Speaker 3: injury was detected during the search, and given her wilderness skills,
Speaker 3: they assumed she could be alive and continued searching accordingly,
Speaker 3: which was later scaled back other plausible scenarios. So obviously
Speaker 3: we could have had injury, a head injury from the
Speaker 3: vehicle crash could have caused her mental state to be changed.
Speaker 3: Intentional avoidance. Maybe she was avoiding contact it kind of
Speaker 3: you know, how she kept declining assistance kind of maybe
Speaker 3: could lead to that theory. She could have been deciding
Speaker 3: to voluntarily long term live in the backcountry she was
Speaker 3: described as nomadic. Again, this goes back to what you
Speaker 3: guys were talking about in the first case encounter with
Speaker 3: illegal activity. So maybe stumbling upon a grow operation, obviously
Speaker 3: lost or misadventure, and maybe she had an undiagnosed mental
Speaker 3: health condition and it maybe the car crash caused something
Speaker 3: to snap and that led her to kind of wander
Speaker 3: off into the wilderness. But very bizarre case. And multiple
Speaker 3: times she could have been rescued by people, and she
Speaker 3: looked like she was in distress, bruised face, kind of
Speaker 3: looked lost and declined, and over multiple weeks she was
Speaker 3: seen at different times, So very interesting. What are your
Speaker 3: theories with this one?
Speaker 4: I don't feel like there was foul play in my
Speaker 4: thoughts are like I just I don't feel like there
Speaker 4: was foul play. The fact that she's last heard from
Speaker 4: her last scene on what July for that's a crash,
Speaker 4: Then all these other things happened and continued to happened,
Speaker 4: and then all the way into when the hunters said
Speaker 4: they ran into her. But you're gonna think I'm crazy
Speaker 4: when I say this, It's okay. Fast forward into the
Speaker 4: spooky incident where the boy saw and I don't I
Speaker 4: really don't. You know, you can't say that she was
Speaker 4: deceased from now, but I thought I wonder if those hunters,
Speaker 4: I'd like to hear more about what the hunter said.
Speaker 4: Did they actually have a conversation with her? Was it
Speaker 4: from a distance, like, Hey, what's that I'm in doing there?
Speaker 4: Walking barefoot with bruising, really skinny or what that was?
Speaker 4: Because you know, I almost feel like maybe that was
Speaker 4: a spooky situation as well. Yeah, maybe you know what
Speaker 4: the little boy saw, they also saw. I know that
Speaker 4: sounds crazy. I'm just I'm open here. I'm just open.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, but I just I.
Speaker 4: Feel like maybe at some point head injury slash. I mean,
Speaker 4: she had bruises on her, then there was some injury.
Speaker 4: And if she had head injury, then she could have
Speaker 4: been acting I wrong. And I did read somewhere that
Speaker 4: maybe some of the items you said she had was
Speaker 4: a birth certificate and some a social Security number was
Speaker 4: with her, like physical did you I don't know if
Speaker 4: you read that.
Speaker 2: Laston, but that might be possible.
Speaker 3: I didn't have that in the summary of this, but yeah,
Speaker 3: that could have been possible.
Speaker 4: I was on an incident where there was a deceased person,
Speaker 4: and he had his birth certificate with him, Social Security,
Speaker 4: he had papers that said he was in the military,
Speaker 4: and he you know, unlived himself. As they say on
Speaker 4: another podcasts, I guess or they it's believed that he
Speaker 4: purposely died of exposure because he just sat down in
Speaker 4: the snow. We first found We found him by seeing
Speaker 4: jo a human jaw bone, and we skied around until
Speaker 4: we actually found the rest of him. But this is
Speaker 4: in the winter, so it just I thought that was
Speaker 4: strange that her belongings were. But if she was just
Speaker 4: being nomadic, you'd think that would be in the car.
Speaker 4: But maybe if she crashed the car and see him
Speaker 4: really going off, if she crashed the car, she probably
Speaker 4: go i't want to leave my birth certificate and everything
Speaker 4: there for somebody to find. So maybe there was nothing
Speaker 4: to that. But that just seemed odd to me that
Speaker 4: that might have been in her.
Speaker 5: And also she could have you know, if she was
Speaker 5: got in that car accident and hit her head, you know,
Speaker 5: she definitely could have been altered mental, you know, at
Speaker 5: that point, and it could have something medical. I had
Speaker 5: one at Mount Rushmore where a guy was living in
Speaker 5: a small cave withinside the park or just outside the
Speaker 5: boundary of the park. And you know when we found
Speaker 5: his body, there was pill bottles. They were empty. They
Speaker 5: were cardiac drugs and it was just an empty pill bottle,
Speaker 5: so could identify who the man was. And you know,
Speaker 5: you went with that assumption that he had a heart attack.
Speaker 5: He ran out of his medication and he had a
Speaker 5: heart attack. So something medical could have happened to her.
Speaker 5: And if she did die, then she could have got
Speaker 5: burned over, you know, in the fire, because you can't
Speaker 5: outrun a forest fire, so it's you know, if she
Speaker 5: was in that area, she could have got trapped in
Speaker 5: that also.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was the That was also the weird thing
Speaker 3: about this case is that the creek fire happened and
Speaker 3: pretty much burned. Maybe any evidence that might have been
Speaker 3: out there of her disappeared rice is most likely gone now.
Speaker 2: Right, So my opinion is kind of what you just said.
Speaker 2: I feel like that accident may have not been a
Speaker 2: large one. But if she had bruises, did it say
Speaker 2: if it was like on her head or where she
Speaker 2: was bruised, and it was a slow interface, Yeah, on
Speaker 2: her face. So at going along, going along, you can
Speaker 2: get a concussion still and some of the I looked
Speaker 2: it up now because I remember doing it. Then some
Speaker 2: of the things that can occur with a concussion. You
Speaker 2: can have disorientation, amnesia, difficulty concentrated, slow thinking, memory issues,
Speaker 2: feeling days are foggy, emotional changes. You can have mood
Speaker 2: swings and irritability. So if you have somebody who has
Speaker 2: survival instinct in nature is nomadic hitting your head and
Speaker 2: this is i'd say, like a perfect storm situation, but
Speaker 2: you get into this mode where you just kind of
Speaker 2: go in your default and maybe she just went off
Speaker 2: in the woods knowing, oh, I know, to survive out here,
Speaker 2: not rationally because you're injured. And then if you're running
Speaker 2: into people and you're having those mood swings, you're irritable
Speaker 2: because you're malnourished, you have this injury, you're just not
Speaker 2: going to be acting yourself. And she's just kind of,
Speaker 2: you know, weaved her way through all these interactions into
Speaker 2: the woods and then eventually died of exposure, yeah, or
Speaker 2: brain bleed.
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm just gonna say that too little.
Speaker 4: A slow brain bleed or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, But and then I can see why because of
Speaker 4: the fire and scavengers, black bear wolves not wolves there,
Speaker 4: but coyoats or whatever they have. But I mean they
Speaker 4: can deal with that in pretty short order. And then
Speaker 4: maybe her clothing and other items. But but yeah, again,
Speaker 4: I do feel like maybe the hunters did not really
Speaker 4: see what they thought they saw.
Speaker 3: That's and the little boy. That would have been a
Speaker 3: whole year of her living out there. You're right, right,
Speaker 3: like minimum here and.
Speaker 2: Food, yeah, very highly unlikely through the winter. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: is probably pods survival super low.
Speaker 4: Yeah right, yeah. And he described her as having blue
Speaker 4: hair and whatever, described her clothes and said, I think
Speaker 4: I read that her her legs were up in the air.
Speaker 4: That didn't that was whatever the boy described, which didn't
Speaker 4: make any sense, but a very ghosts ghost what I'm
Speaker 4: saying it was the description. He was three years old.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah, the age where you don't really have
Speaker 2: a reasonable lie.
Speaker 5: Yeah right, yeah, make up exactly, that's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was such a interesting When I first mean,
Speaker 4: y'all gave that story test to look at, I'm like, okay,
Speaker 4: that story right there. It was so interesting to me.
Speaker 4: And I did call somebody from Yosemite two nights ago,
Speaker 4: and they didn't have much to add because it was
Speaker 4: barely just I think the sleeping bag was in the park,
Speaker 4: so Yosemite wasn't involved, you know as much as the
Speaker 4: the other local folks were.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, yeah, very I mean, and it's this case
Speaker 3: is one of hundreds kind of similar with very just
Speaker 3: every case has just weird aspects where Joe and I
Speaker 3: will be talking a theory and we think we have
Speaker 3: one theory down, but then there's like one or two
Speaker 3: data points in the case that don't make sense. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it can't really need that theory, And then you're like, well,
Speaker 3: maybe it's this theory.
Speaker 2: That's why the joke is like they're always missing it's
Speaker 2: obviously the same thing. But yeah, there's always just this
Speaker 2: like weirdness to each one that they are so different
Speaker 2: in their own right, Yeah, right, that's just you can't
Speaker 2: and there's so many variables out in I mean, you've
Speaker 2: managed parks and worked on they're huge. There's so huge
Speaker 2: people can hide drug operations in them and almost never
Speaker 2: be found. Like yeah, so there's so many variables that
Speaker 2: go in here, you really can't imagine, like fully what
Speaker 2: could have happened. And that's I think what's so fascinating
Speaker 2: about a lot of these cases is your imagination has
Speaker 2: to do most of the work. Now.
Speaker 3: And the counterpoint, because we say this sometimes too. Millions
Speaker 3: upon millions of people go hiking in all the parks
Speaker 3: and come out safe.
Speaker 2: So do they? That's right?
Speaker 3: So, and I think it might have been one of
Speaker 3: you on one of the other the other episode we did.
Speaker 3: The vast majority of people that go missing are found
Speaker 3: within a couple hours, just someone that went.
Speaker 2: Down the wrong trail or something. Correct.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so these are very rare based on the millions
Speaker 3: of people that go But yeah, but when they do,
Speaker 3: happy that they're so bizarre and interesting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, definitely bear sharing these stories for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well that's kind of what we do on our show.
Speaker 2: That's awesome that and then after we just kind of
Speaker 2: are awkwardly sharing each other, like hey, it's kind of
Speaker 2: slowly turned. I just slowly start doing this and we
Speaker 2: just kind of fade out so that we Well.
Speaker 4: I was going to say, so where can people Okay,
Speaker 4: most people you know locations and known, but what are
Speaker 4: all the socials at your own like where can people
Speaker 4: find you and follow you? And how do they support you?
Speaker 2: Well, the most important would be our LinkedIn page. Yeah,
Speaker 2: absolutely not. LinkedIn is a weird place.
Speaker 4: We don't do that.
Speaker 2: No, you don't need to do that. I've built a
Speaker 2: LinkedIn page for the podcast more as like, I thought
Speaker 2: it'd be funny to constantly say, our Troop podcast is
Speaker 2: a LinkedIn page. Yeah, I don't even I don't even
Speaker 2: update it in a long time.
Speaker 3: No, we're on all of them. We're on a Facebook, Instagram.
Speaker 3: Joe is our resident TikTok editor, so.
Speaker 2: I haven't done any of it in a while yet.
Speaker 3: We have a YouTube channel where we post the video versions.
Speaker 3: So those are the main places you can find us.
Speaker 3: We do have a website, well technically we have two
Speaker 3: right now. We have our old website locations unknown dot org.
Speaker 2: Did we buy the dot com yet? Yeah, we have it,
Speaker 2: so we have we have the dot com now, see
Speaker 2: how caught up I am. Yes, I'm so used to
Speaker 2: the dot org for years. We finally bought the dot com.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we someone a company was like squatting on it
Speaker 3: and wouldn't They wanted a lot of money for it,
Speaker 3: and we eventually convinced him.
Speaker 2: Warm that's right, Wow, warmed down like five bucks at
Speaker 2: a time per year.
Speaker 3: I had a reminder set up in my email to
Speaker 3: email the guy every year at the same time, and
Speaker 3: asked me if we wanted to sell it. I said,
Speaker 3: we have all the other social media everything around it.
Speaker 3: No one's going to ever want to buy this other than.
Speaker 6: Us, right right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, thank you, very very very much. We really
Speaker 4: appreciate it. I'd love to do it again sometime. I
Speaker 4: think it'd be great.
Speaker 2: So we're going to have you back on our show
Speaker 2: we had. We had so much fun in the live
Speaker 2: show that we had to do the.
Speaker 3: Same thing but with cases you guys covered, because you
Speaker 3: guys do completely different type of cases too much.
Speaker 2: Would be really interesting to hear.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're happy to do it. Also, Hey, can I
Speaker 4: just say right quick Halloween. I don't know what you
Speaker 4: guys do Halloween. We are going to be doing a
Speaker 4: live show in Yellowstone at Mammoth Hotel. So if you
Speaker 4: have nothing else to do Halloween, come come to Yellowstone
Speaker 4: National Park. If we can figure out how to live
Speaker 4: stream it, will live stream it. But we've got a
Speaker 4: really true crimey and spooky story that we're going to
Speaker 4: be sharing. Anyway, it's going to be it's gonna be
Speaker 4: a fun time. In Yellowstone Mammoth Hot Springs.
Speaker 2: Excellent, we'll try it. I work with you off air
Speaker 2: to try and figure out how to get you to
Speaker 2: live stream. No, how about that?
Speaker 5: Yes, oh yes, definitely.
Speaker 2: I mean you are part of our network.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: I think we could easily help you both to get
Speaker 3: that live stream.
Speaker 2: I think that'd be really cool to live stream. Yeah,
Speaker 2: absolutely good.
Speaker 4: Thank you. You guys are like our daddies, Like you're
Speaker 4: somehow I don't know how that would work out, but
Speaker 4: you're our daddy figures or something.
Speaker 2: I guess.
Speaker 3: Okay, I would love to come out to Yellowstone, but
Speaker 3: I think this is the first year we're taking clear
Speaker 3: trick or treating, so it would look bad if I
Speaker 3: missed that.
Speaker 2: And my my sister's getting married on Halloween. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: so fun. Oh she miss a lot of fun. Yeah,
Speaker 2: absolutely so otherwise when it came out.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it would come out if I I didn't
Speaker 3: have to go trick or treating.
Speaker 4: Well, they're going to have trigger treating there too as well.
Speaker 4: They're going to decorate.
Speaker 2: All have them. Mike.
Speaker 4: That's right, that's right, Mike, All right, Okay, everybody will
Speaker 4: stay safe in wild places. And watch out for the
Speaker 4: company you keep.
Speaker 5: And if you see something, say something.
Speaker 4: I know you guys have a tagline Oh Joe, you
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 2: I always remember to leave no trace.
Speaker 4: Yeah all right, Hey, thanks so much, Thanks guys,