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<v Speaker 1>The news around they eat Hong Kong dollar. That's pretty big.

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<v Speaker 1>How did that relationship come about to get a government

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<v Speaker 1>to essentially issue a stable coin on app TOSK.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of hard work through our partners and our

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<v Speaker 2>employees in Asia to work very closely with the government

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<v Speaker 2>and with a lot of financial tech companies within that

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<v Speaker 2>region of the world. And I think that just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of shows the trust that those folks have on a

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<v Speaker 2>network like ap toss and where the safety, the speed,

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<v Speaker 2>and the through but really matter.

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<v Speaker 1>This episode is brought to you by Gemini, which is

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<v Speaker 1>one of the top crypto exchanges in the industry. I've

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<v Speaker 1>been a user of Gemini for many years. They make

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<v Speaker 1>it easy for you to buy, sell, and trade crypto.

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<v Speaker 1>Gemini has a lot of unique features. They have a

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<v Speaker 1>fully functional app, a credit card, they include staking on

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<v Speaker 1>their platform, and they also have a stable coin called

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<v Speaker 1>Gemini Dollar, which is USD back and Gemini is certified, regulated,

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<v Speaker 1>end licensed. They are available in seventy plus countries and

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<v Speaker 1>if you sign up using my code or link which

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<v Speaker 1>will be in a description, you can get fifteen dollars

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<v Speaker 1>in bitcoin when you trade your first one hundred dollars.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you'd like to learn more about Gemini, visit

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<v Speaker 1>the link in the description. Welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm your host, Tony Edward, and my guest today is

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<v Speaker 1>Avery Chang, who's the co founder and CTO at app

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<v Speaker 1>Toss Labs. Avery, great to have you on.

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<v Speaker 2>It's wonderful to be here with you, Tony.

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<v Speaker 1>Avery. I'm really excited to speak with you because I've

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<v Speaker 1>been hearing a lot about app Toss. I've been seeing

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of user data and growth and adoption, and

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<v Speaker 1>I want to learn about app toss and what you

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<v Speaker 1>guys are up to there building some great Web three

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<v Speaker 1>products and services and so forth. But before we get

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<v Speaker 1>to all that, tell us about yourself, where you're from,

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<v Speaker 1>and your professional background.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure. I was born and raised in Halloo, Hawaii, a

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<v Speaker 2>wonderful place by the way. For childhood. I went to

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<v Speaker 2>Northwestern undergrad and graduate school. I did my PhD in

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<v Speaker 2>high performance computing, especially in realizing in the area of

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<v Speaker 2>paralle file systems. After that, I went to you Off

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<v Speaker 2>for four years worked on web search. Then when joined

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<v Speaker 2>Meta in two thousand and eleven, it was called Facebook

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<v Speaker 2>back then. I was there for over a decade working

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<v Speaker 2>on data infrastructure, things like do graft processing, large scale scheduling,

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<v Speaker 2>and then ultimately the DM project. I was the Web

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<v Speaker 2>three technical project and at the end of twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 2>one I realized, and you know, it wasn't a big surprise,

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<v Speaker 2>I guess that we were unable to launch the blockchain.

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<v Speaker 2>We built amazing technology within Meta. We did all the

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<v Speaker 2>things right, We open sourced it under the Apache two

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<v Speaker 2>license any would use it, and then with my co

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<v Speaker 2>found Remo, we'd launched aft toss Labs, designed to take

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the work that we had done within

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<v Speaker 2>the DM project and bring it to a much larger audience,

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<v Speaker 2>developed technology stack for a for all five billion interne

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<v Speaker 2>users and support a much wider variety of use cases

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<v Speaker 2>besides just remittances and payments.

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<v Speaker 1>And was it at Facebook that you discovered blockchain and

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<v Speaker 1>crypto or was it before that? And what was your

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<v Speaker 1>aha moment?

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<v Speaker 2>I think my aha moment was probably back when I

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<v Speaker 2>was still at Meta. I've been working on data infrastructure,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of large scale systems, scaling out to exobyites

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<v Speaker 2>and exobites of data infrastructure and processing that to support

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<v Speaker 2>all of Meta's different products through analytics and drive data

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<v Speaker 2>and I, you know, someone showed me the Bitcoin white paper.

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<v Speaker 2>I read through it. You know, I had been a

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<v Speaker 2>distributed systems junkie for a long time. That was also

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<v Speaker 2>my heir of my PhD, and just kind of reading

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<v Speaker 2>through and learning about the economics of what bitcoin was

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<v Speaker 2>bringing to the world and how it could build a

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<v Speaker 2>secure system through economics, I think was a very fascinating

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<v Speaker 2>concept and also a product that instead of going kind

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<v Speaker 2>of being something that embedded within a company like a

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<v Speaker 2>Meta where I worked in data infrastructure, which was then

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<v Speaker 2>kind of used as a back end service to power

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<v Speaker 2>products in the front end. It was amazing to see

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<v Speaker 2>a system that people would directly track with a database,

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<v Speaker 2>anyone could use directly as opposed to something through an interface.

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<v Speaker 2>Through an interface, it finally gets to kind of back

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<v Speaker 2>an infrastructure. So that I think was what got me

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<v Speaker 2>really excited about this space, about the possibilities of it,

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<v Speaker 2>and then kind of thinking about how does that apply.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, now that we have this public infrastructure, how

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<v Speaker 2>do we kind of build it at scale to support

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<v Speaker 2>the scale that Metage used to the billions of users

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<v Speaker 2>and the you know, billions of transactions and dataflow that

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<v Speaker 2>happened within an environment like that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's amazing. And you know, I look at your background.

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<v Speaker 1>I was looking at your LinkedIn profile. I mean spending

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<v Speaker 1>time at Yahoo, which we would categorize as Web one

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<v Speaker 1>point zero, then meta or Facebook Web two point oh,

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<v Speaker 1>and now you're building in Web three point zero. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>what's that journey been like for you? And is it

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<v Speaker 1>you know, some people still don't see this as Web three,

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<v Speaker 1>but is it clear for you that this is Web three.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you're the first person characterized it that way,

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<v Speaker 2>and I appreciate that, and you know, reflecting on it,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, definitely it's probably like more of

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<v Speaker 2>an incremental change to me, just given like kind of

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<v Speaker 2>lived a long time through it. But I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the way you characterize is pretty apt. You know, Yahoo,

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<v Speaker 2>it was kind of the first iterations of kind of

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<v Speaker 2>some might call that Web two point zero still but

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<v Speaker 2>definitely early early days of what possibilis could be. They

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<v Speaker 2>built out a search engine, they built a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>different products, explored the space deeply obviously meta now doubling

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<v Speaker 2>down on social and taking it to kind of its

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<v Speaker 2>ultimate destination. And then you know, with Web three you know,

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<v Speaker 2>going breaking down those borders of a kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>closed environment and saying, look, anybody can build, anybody can interact.

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<v Speaker 2>You can build a protocol that does social. I can

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<v Speaker 2>build a protocol that is financial, and someone can go

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<v Speaker 2>ahead and build a protocol that links the two of

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<v Speaker 2>us together and provides capabilities that no one thought was

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<v Speaker 2>possible because it doesn't require, you know, you are to

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<v Speaker 2>give consent for someone to do that. Everyone has access

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<v Speaker 2>to it. All the codes open source, all the codes available,

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<v Speaker 2>all the services that you and I build are available

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<v Speaker 2>to anyone. And that's really, I think, just a novel

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<v Speaker 2>thing that we've got to take more advantage within the

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<v Speaker 2>web Web three.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh for sure. Now, I'd love to get your thoughts

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<v Speaker 1>on this. And this is probably a tough question. It's

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<v Speaker 1>in itself, it's probably an entire podcast. But Web one

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<v Speaker 1>point zero right search and so forth, Web two point

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<v Speaker 1>zero social interactions and and these things. Do you feel

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<v Speaker 1>these companies like Meta and Yahoo will be forced to

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<v Speaker 1>adopt this technology of blockchain and make things a bit

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<v Speaker 1>more decentralized or will they be disrupted by new players,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, if they don't change in time? Kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the blockbuster Netflix dynamic.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a great question. I think a lot of times

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<v Speaker 2>people web through are thinking about things, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>wrong ways, like how do I build you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>you know, exactly equivalent product to what Instagram or Facebook

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<v Speaker 2>have done. And I think that you can do, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe maybe there's an audience for it, But I

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<v Speaker 2>think by and large, the customer base that uses Instagram

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<v Speaker 2>or Facebook, you know, they don't think about those things

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<v Speaker 2>on daily basis. They're just thinking about how to connect

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<v Speaker 2>to my friends? How do I keep on track on

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<v Speaker 2>what they're doing. Are they focused on the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of this data and you know, the interactions

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<v Speaker 2>happen within a single company, Probably probably not as much.

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<v Speaker 2>I think what we've got to do with web three

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<v Speaker 2>instead is build new things, things that you couldn't do

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<v Speaker 2>because of the kind of restrictions that that you might

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<v Speaker 2>have at a place like Meta or or or other

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<v Speaker 2>companies like that, like Google. We've got to build products

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<v Speaker 2>that that are that are that are different, that take

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<v Speaker 2>advantage of the capabilities of Web three. An example might be,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, if we build a social product and you

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<v Speaker 2>can actually support payments to every single person on the

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<v Speaker 2>platform at any granularity. You know, that's something that can

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<v Speaker 2>be done. Trees infrastructure, you know, today their rules come around.

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<v Speaker 2>They may not ruled, but there's definitely limitations around something

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<v Speaker 2>like you know, Visa will only support you know, transactions

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<v Speaker 2>of a certain amount. There's definitely fees that come with it.

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<v Speaker 2>If you want to pay out to these customers. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's complications, there's KYC that needs to be done, there's

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<v Speaker 2>bank accounts involved. You can only support so many different

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<v Speaker 2>customers to pay out to. But in an infrastructure like blockchain,

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<v Speaker 2>where anyone can have an address the transaction fees of

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<v Speaker 2>something like aptos or deminimous maybe like eight thousands of

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<v Speaker 2>a cent, you can actually have payments in many different granularities,

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<v Speaker 2>even as low as a cent, and they can be

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<v Speaker 2>very effective and efficient and settle immediately. And so taking

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<v Speaker 2>advantage of infrastructure like that, I think is the key

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<v Speaker 2>to really unlocking a lot of the value within the web. Three.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a great point that you brought up about

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<v Speaker 1>creating new things versus trying to replicate Web two point

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<v Speaker 1>or whatever it is, and trying to put blockchain in

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<v Speaker 1>there somehow. But maybe, as we've seen historically, people who

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<v Speaker 1>bring in new solutions, new ideas, new things that people

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<v Speaker 1>can experience. Something has faster adoption versus being a carbon copy, right,

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<v Speaker 1>the disruptors entering in with new ideas. So, yeah, how

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<v Speaker 1>did you and mow meet and how did the idea

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<v Speaker 1>to build app toss come about?

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<v Speaker 2>A moment I met during our time when we were

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<v Speaker 2>at Meta. We interacted through different projects. He was on

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<v Speaker 2>the wallet side looking at different partnership opportunities for that

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<v Speaker 2>that product. I was on the Web three side, on

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<v Speaker 2>the on the DM tech stack building out the technology

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<v Speaker 2>core along with side an amazing team, and so our

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<v Speaker 2>past kind of intersected as we started to think about

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<v Speaker 2>partnerships like we used for the blockchain, thinking about how

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<v Speaker 2>the adoption could be even different ways in which the

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<v Speaker 2>bloxing could be used outside of just the payments and

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<v Speaker 2>MNTS infrastructure. And as we started to discuss that, it

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<v Speaker 2>kind of became clear that this technology could serve a

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<v Speaker 2>much larger purpose than just what DM was planned to do. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>And we would obviously have to make a lot of changes,

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<v Speaker 2>we'd have to you know, develop technology a lot further.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's something that I think really excited both of us.

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<v Speaker 2>The idea that we could build a public, decentralized utility

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<v Speaker 2>that anyone can use. If we think about it the

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<v Speaker 2>same as water or roads or electricity, you know, it

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<v Speaker 2>should be something that everyone has access to, everyone can

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<v Speaker 2>can transact on, and can be a you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>global settlement ledger for many different types of applications.

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<v Speaker 1>And is app cause a layer one blockchain and what

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<v Speaker 1>protocol does it use?

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<v Speaker 2>Is a layer one blockchain. It's our own custom protocol

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<v Speaker 2>apps protocol. Underninth of it, it uses the Move language

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<v Speaker 2>as well. Kind of just for some background, Move is

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<v Speaker 2>a language that was developed during our time back at

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<v Speaker 2>DM under the Facebook umbrella. It was designed kind of

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<v Speaker 2>specifically to support use cases of their mints and payments

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<v Speaker 2>and a kind of libracurrency that at the time we

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<v Speaker 2>thought was important. We've taken a move and really evolved

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<v Speaker 2>a lot since then. We've added features like objects to it.

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<v Speaker 2>We've had a kind of fuller support for the move prover.

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<v Speaker 2>We actually have this new effort to call to build

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<v Speaker 2>something we call move too, which is a new compiler,

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<v Speaker 2>a new vm UH support for what we call block STM,

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<v Speaker 2>a dynamic paralism, which is kind of the third iteration

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<v Speaker 2>of paralism in the journey so far in this space

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<v Speaker 2>and supports things like a chain randomness. It is, we think,

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<v Speaker 2>going to be the ultimate vessel for any kind of

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<v Speaker 2>web to be developer going forward into the future, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's an area that definitely needs a technology chef.

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<v Speaker 1>Mhm. Have you and Mo gone back to Facebook and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, hit up Zuck and say, hey, man, what

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<v Speaker 1>we build? You know, this is a blockchain you can

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<v Speaker 1>integrate into Facebook.

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<v Speaker 2>I think we've you know, I think Facebook has been

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<v Speaker 2>very focused on a lot of other efforts at this time,

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<v Speaker 2>and as as a shareholder, I'm pretty excited about what

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<v Speaker 2>they're doing. AI also need to develop their product suite.

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<v Speaker 2>I think. I think at the right time we'll we'll

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<v Speaker 2>have a conversation about with three, but I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>for now, there's a lot of other focuses at the

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<v Speaker 2>company for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Now correct me if I'm wrong. Was it this week

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<v Speaker 1>that it's the two year main neet anniversary for aptos?

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, well previously previous week, but yes, it's been

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<v Speaker 2>two years and two years since mean it has gone live.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, it's pretty amazing. And what use cases is apt

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<v Speaker 1>toss targeting and I know it may be across the

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<v Speaker 1>board because you're a layer one, but are there any

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<v Speaker 1>particular you know use case your try like tokenization and

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<v Speaker 1>a f tise whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe. So atos's strengths really are in a couple of areas.

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<v Speaker 2>Aptus is the largest scale support kind of within the

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<v Speaker 2>web three industry. I think that's something that we felt

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<v Speaker 2>was really important as infrastructure there. If we think back

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<v Speaker 2>to Cloud, one of the things that Cloud people were

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<v Speaker 2>really worried about for Cloud adoption was in the early

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<v Speaker 2>days there wasn't ability to scale easily to large amounts

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<v Speaker 2>of hardware. So if you're a large company trying to

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<v Speaker 2>build on top of cloud, you're you're thinking like, if

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<v Speaker 2>my user base grows substantially, you know, doesn't mean that

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<v Speaker 2>now infrastructure is going to limit me and how much

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<v Speaker 2>how many users I can onboard? Is it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>give them time? And that's of course for any business

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<v Speaker 2>a huge risk and consideration. I think in blockchain is

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<v Speaker 2>the same thing, you know, thinking about for a large

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<v Speaker 2>large company or someone who wants to build at scale,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, support hundreds of millions of users, and they're

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<v Speaker 2>thinking like, well, if I build this blockchain infrastructure is

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<v Speaker 2>it going to you know, eventually hit a limit where

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<v Speaker 2>I can't go any further. H that's going to hinder

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<v Speaker 2>my product growth. We felt scalability was one of those

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<v Speaker 2>important things to solve because if you don't have scalability,

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<v Speaker 2>you see what happens on ethereum where demand based pricing

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<v Speaker 2>drives up fees. You know, if you have high fees,

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<v Speaker 2>transaction rates you know, can't be supported by an application

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<v Speaker 2>because customers don't want to pay those fees. Applications can't

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<v Speaker 2>internally handle those fees at certain scale, it's it's not

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<v Speaker 2>going to work out. And so we we've worked really

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<v Speaker 2>hard in the last couple of years and even before that.

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<v Speaker 2>This project has been going on since twenty eighteen basically

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<v Speaker 2>so to really build the scale that we thought could

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<v Speaker 2>support you know, the five billion Internet users out there,

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<v Speaker 2>and we've been really pleased to see our results. Last

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<v Speaker 2>December we kind of announced our results of what we

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<v Speaker 2>call premun it and preving it is a way to

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<v Speaker 2>run kind of a mainit like environment with the same things.

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<v Speaker 2>One hundred plus validators running our next iteration version of

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<v Speaker 2>the software the code, and we are able to demonstrate

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<v Speaker 2>with reproducer results if you want, you want to run

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<v Speaker 2>them yourself. We have the configurations in GitHub with the

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<v Speaker 2>same commands. You can go ahead and kind of repeat

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<v Speaker 2>all this. That we could see more than two billion

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<v Speaker 2>transactions occurrent day, two billion kind of transactions, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>an average of more than twenty five thousand transactions per second.

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<v Speaker 2>So just to put that at scale in twenty twenty three,

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<v Speaker 2>I think Visa is something like seventy million transactions per

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<v Speaker 2>day master guarded formge million transactions per day. Two billion

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<v Speaker 2>transactions in a single day is actually more than every

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<v Speaker 2>single credit card processor combined. Wow. And so this gave

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<v Speaker 2>us a lot of comments to show and in a

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<v Speaker 2>repeatable or producer environment that you know, aptos is able

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<v Speaker 2>to support some of the largest workloads in the world

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<v Speaker 2>in one industry at least, that's amazing. And then back

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<v Speaker 2>in August, you know, there was a product called tap

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<v Speaker 2>Us Cat, which is a very simple kind of click

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<v Speaker 2>to top game, but underneath the cover is actually doing

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<v Speaker 2>some pretty complicated things around voting, around points accumulation, and

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<v Speaker 2>tap Us had kind of achieved a lot of traction

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<v Speaker 2>and drove up the transactions on main net to three

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<v Speaker 2>to twenty six million transactions in one day. Wow. And

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<v Speaker 2>so app to us now holds the records for daily

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<v Speaker 2>transactions in main nets. I think the top three records

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<v Speaker 2>three to twenty six million, one hundred and fifty million,

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<v Speaker 2>I think something like ninety six million, you know, demonstrating

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<v Speaker 2>that not only this you know result can happen in

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<v Speaker 2>the next version of code, but actually in the software

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<v Speaker 2>that's deployed today. And so we felt that this kind

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<v Speaker 2>of ability to show that you have amazing scalability, the

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<v Speaker 2>fee stayed low the whole time. There were fractions of

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<v Speaker 2>ascent are really important for developing infrastructure that anyone can

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<v Speaker 2>build on and can not have to worry about their

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<v Speaker 2>use case kind of getting hit by the ceiling of

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<v Speaker 2>what the infrastructure can provide so cost scale. And then

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<v Speaker 2>latency is something that we've also worked really hard on.

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<v Speaker 2>Our infrastructure has evolved a lot. We've made improvements to consensus,

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<v Speaker 2>made improvements to the pipelining aspects. Something that apps us

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<v Speaker 2>does very uniquely here is it has a very pipeline design,

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<v Speaker 2>more than five phases data dissemination, kind of consensus parle execution,

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<v Speaker 2>parle of storage, and then finally kind of proof generation.

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<v Speaker 2>And this to these five stages, we can generate both

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<v Speaker 2>high through put and low latency and kind of drive

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<v Speaker 2>each stage down in terms of the kind of cost

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<v Speaker 2>to the users. We've seen that we put up a

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<v Speaker 2>dashboard recently with the kind of US versus other networks

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<v Speaker 2>and showing the app toss is the fastest for it

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<v Speaker 2>typically around seventy eight indred milliseconds out of Asia for

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<v Speaker 2>user in ten times. And then why that's important is

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<v Speaker 2>because you have a website that takes about two and

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<v Speaker 2>a f seconds load on average if it's a good website,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, being able to be kind of about

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<v Speaker 2>seven or injurred milliseconds or in that range means that

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<v Speaker 2>you can actually put a blockchain operation in the critical

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<v Speaker 2>path of the website loading. So native integration into kind

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<v Speaker 2>of web apps, into mobile applications, into anything you do

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<v Speaker 2>on the internet today. And so the combination of these

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<v Speaker 2>three things kind of you know, shows shows us where

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<v Speaker 2>we think that the technology needs to be in order

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<v Speaker 2>for that masculine adoption. So we work on things that

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I really take advantage of this, I through

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<v Speaker 2>pit applications, anything requires little latency, anything that kind of

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<v Speaker 2>requires that low cost. I think a good example of

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<v Speaker 2>that would be use cases around payments. So if you

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<v Speaker 2>think about you know, for instance, I was going back

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<v Speaker 2>to earlier kind of micropayments, small amounts of transactions, transacting ascent,

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<v Speaker 2>transacting ten cents. That's not great for networks like ethereum.

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<v Speaker 2>It's really great for things like aptos, right because you

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<v Speaker 2>can actually move money at at high speed at very

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<v Speaker 2>very low cost, and so be able to support micro

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<v Speaker 2>payments or even streaming payments where you know, you are

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<v Speaker 2>a content creator might have a have a stream and

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<v Speaker 2>you want your users to be able to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, commentate you if they think they're doing a job,

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<v Speaker 2>and they can actually just kind of stream the payments

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<v Speaker 2>as they're watching your show, and and then that can

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you can turn the stream off if they're dissatisfied.

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<v Speaker 2>Those kinds of things enable new use cases that weren't

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<v Speaker 2>possibly for new myth is a payment that weren't possible,

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<v Speaker 2>or if you want to think about things like micro

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<v Speaker 2>loans in emerging countries, those things are very hard to

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<v Speaker 2>do in traditional world, but they're possible to do in

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<v Speaker 2>products like optos. So focusing on those use cases, especially

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<v Speaker 2>in the you know, finance low to commerce. We think

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<v Speaker 2>that there's amazing innovation in that area that can leverage

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<v Speaker 2>the APTOS technology staff to its fullest.

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<v Speaker 1>That's amazing and incredible performance. That's and you know, as

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<v Speaker 1>you're saying that, I think about like your competitors like Solana,

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<v Speaker 1>who've had downtime kind of handle things like this. So

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<v Speaker 1>you guys have not had that issue, and certainly that's

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<v Speaker 1>a differentiator, right, you have the latency, you have the

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<v Speaker 1>uptime and so forth. And I love the idea of

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<v Speaker 1>the micro payments. That is something I've been following for years.

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<v Speaker 1>I know the folks at Brave Browser are doing it

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<v Speaker 1>in a different way, but they haven't really cracked a

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<v Speaker 1>model of having the traditional publishers and so forth really

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<v Speaker 1>buying in and having real time stream payments and things

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<v Speaker 1>like that. Is that a use case that you guys

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<v Speaker 1>are maybe working with different companies with FO.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we probably can't talk about too much right now,

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<v Speaker 2>but we're working with a large number of companies to

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<v Speaker 2>explore the space further. And I think especially emerging markets

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<v Speaker 2>is the key here. That's where those smaller payment sizes

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<v Speaker 2>are more important. Well, if you think about countries in

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<v Speaker 2>India where has a very large population and lots of

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<v Speaker 2>lots of folks that are cost conscious. Those transaction fees

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<v Speaker 2>add up. Those amounts of transfers are important, and we

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<v Speaker 2>can support the use cases better than anybody in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's the kind of area that I think we

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<v Speaker 2>really are are are designed for solving. Oh for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, tell us about the APT token. If I'm saying that, right,

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<v Speaker 1>is it.

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<v Speaker 2>Apt you can call it? I think app is fine,

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<v Speaker 2>apt is fine, whatever whatever you want to call it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, APT token. Tell us a bit about the

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<v Speaker 1>token and the tokenomics, you know, are their respective unlocks

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<v Speaker 1>coming up and things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, so apt is a is a pretty interesting token.

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<v Speaker 2>I think when it was launched it had one of

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<v Speaker 2>the largest, if not the largest community bucket available to it,

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<v Speaker 2>I think, at fifty one percent. I think that's something

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<v Speaker 2>that if you're trying to build at public decentralized utility,

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's obvious to me. I think that the token's

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<v Speaker 2>got to reflect that. And being able to support the

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<v Speaker 2>community through the majority of the token, I think is

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<v Speaker 2>a really important thing. In general. I think that the

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<v Speaker 2>token un locks are are are probably industry leading most

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<v Speaker 2>you know. I think the investors and the core contributors

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<v Speaker 2>have a for the year unlock schedule, and the Foundation

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<v Speaker 2>is a much larger ten lot on ten year unlock

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<v Speaker 2>schedule for fridge tokens and for the community bucket and

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<v Speaker 2>for those kind of things. I think, you know, you

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<v Speaker 2>really want to take a long term perspective on building

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<v Speaker 2>a network. It is not going to be something that

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<v Speaker 2>happens quickly over time, and as we've seen in the space,

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<v Speaker 2>finding actual product market fit is difficult. So designing something

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<v Speaker 2>for the long term, I think, which is the way

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<v Speaker 2>the tokenomics of aptoss is structured, is really important and

421
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.799
<v Speaker 2>I think it's you know, it's actually set up quite well.

422
00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:49.599
<v Speaker 2>The other thing is, I would say when it comes

423
00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:53.839
<v Speaker 2>to the the mechanisms around the token, they're extremely simple,

424
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:57.839
<v Speaker 2>and that's by design as well just being able to

425
00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:02.640
<v Speaker 2>have anyone but understand there is a staking emission and

426
00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:06.119
<v Speaker 2>there's also a burning for transaction fees, and that's pretty

427
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:08.680
<v Speaker 2>much for the most part. Yet when it comes to

428
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:13.519
<v Speaker 2>creation and deletion of tokens makes it easy for anyone

429
00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:17.640
<v Speaker 2>to understand, where sometimes there's very complicated schemes of like

430
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.279
<v Speaker 2>some parts are burned, some parts are saved. You know,

431
00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:22.400
<v Speaker 2>there's all this other stuff, and like you know, it's

432
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:23.960
<v Speaker 2>very hard for people to get the grasp of like

433
00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:26.799
<v Speaker 2>what what's actually happening within the network. The simplicity is

434
00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:27.759
<v Speaker 2>really really important.

435
00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:30.960
<v Speaker 1>You mentioned staking? Is that available right now?

436
00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:34.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, anyone can stay tap plus network, You can run

437
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:38.200
<v Speaker 2>a validator, you can directly stake, you can have delegated

438
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.599
<v Speaker 2>staking into your your validator. And I think this is

439
00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:45.000
<v Speaker 2>also by design. You want a large amount of participants

440
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:47.599
<v Speaker 2>in the network. You want people to I think the

441
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:49.279
<v Speaker 2>low I think it's as low as eleven ap ty

442
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.039
<v Speaker 2>to stake into the network, So pretty it's accessible to

443
00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:55.240
<v Speaker 2>large number of people. Uh, and the more participation the

444
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.319
<v Speaker 2>better obviously. Oh for sure.

445
00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:03.000
<v Speaker 1>I saw on the website AI and blockchain, and there's

446
00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:06.359
<v Speaker 1>other you know, use cases we want to call it that,

447
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:08.799
<v Speaker 1>like game fi and so forth. But tell us about

448
00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:10.920
<v Speaker 1>what you guys are doing with AI and blockchain. We

449
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:14.200
<v Speaker 1>know there's like a symbiotic relationship where blockchain is being

450
00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:17.079
<v Speaker 1>helped to police AI and AI is being used to

451
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:18.680
<v Speaker 1>enhance blockchain attributes.

452
00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:21.839
<v Speaker 2>AI and blockchain is a space probably a bit closer

453
00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:24.920
<v Speaker 2>to my heart. When I worked at Meta and Data Infrastructure,

454
00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:27.799
<v Speaker 2>I worked on a lot of the I or mL

455
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.480
<v Speaker 2>type initiatives. Some of the things I worked on were

456
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:32.640
<v Speaker 2>collaborate filtering, which is a way to kind of help,

457
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:37.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, find recommendations for for for instance, users for groups.

458
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:41.720
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a very famous collaborate filtering challenge back

459
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:45.359
<v Speaker 2>maybe ten years ago. I also worked on some other

460
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:50.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of supervised learning algorithms gamins, clustering, waiting to scent,

461
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:54.640
<v Speaker 2>and so I think for those it's it's really interesting

462
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.519
<v Speaker 2>to see that intersection now of like the work I've

463
00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:59.880
<v Speaker 2>done before in blockchain, now a lot of it is

464
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.319
<v Speaker 2>to be around the data preparation and the kind of

465
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:05.359
<v Speaker 2>data lineage, and that's something also in data infrastructure we

466
00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:08.160
<v Speaker 2>spend a lot of time on. So thinking through that

467
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:10.079
<v Speaker 2>a bit and then kind of finding the right partners

468
00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:12.599
<v Speaker 2>in the space has been key for us. We've announced

469
00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:18.839
<v Speaker 2>our partnership with Overlay. Overlay is a group of content creators,

470
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:22.839
<v Speaker 2>some former naturally to fact photographers and others who are

471
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:25.519
<v Speaker 2>really concerned about the you know, how how their data

472
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:28.960
<v Speaker 2>is being used in l MS, how their DA is

473
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:32.279
<v Speaker 2>being just used elsewhere as well. Uh, and you know,

474
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:33.920
<v Speaker 2>one of the ways we want to solve this problem

475
00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:37.279
<v Speaker 2>is through through tracking that data, creating controls around it,

476
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:41.400
<v Speaker 2>creating standards and how that data can be used with uh,

477
00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:45.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, the creator, creator of permission and you know

478
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:48.839
<v Speaker 2>we're all creators. You're creating a podcast, you know, I'm

479
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:53.000
<v Speaker 2>working on a blockchain, and I think it's important for

480
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:56.240
<v Speaker 2>us to be able to kind of start to put

481
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:59.480
<v Speaker 2>a lot of that historical information on chain, you know,

482
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:02.759
<v Speaker 2>having that ability to kind of say, this is my content,

483
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.960
<v Speaker 2>I created it, I'm signing up with my private key,

484
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.799
<v Speaker 2>and you know everyone knows about it. And now going forward,

485
00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:12.039
<v Speaker 2>because this is an immutable record of history of what

486
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.440
<v Speaker 2>I created, is something that is going to be I

487
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.160
<v Speaker 2>think really necessary in this world of data being used

488
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:20.240
<v Speaker 2>in different ways and kind of without you know, maybe

489
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:24.039
<v Speaker 2>without permission, without access. And so that's where I think

490
00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:26.960
<v Speaker 2>blockchain can really really help with the I space. And

491
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.640
<v Speaker 2>I think we've seen a lot of concerns from you know,

492
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:31.440
<v Speaker 2>people looking at llms and saying like, did you know

493
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:34.480
<v Speaker 2>where'd you get the data source from? Yeah? Did you

494
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:37.119
<v Speaker 2>have permission access that? And you know, sometimes the answers

495
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:40.359
<v Speaker 2>are a little a little hazy. It's going to be

496
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:42.880
<v Speaker 2>a world where we need to have more attribution around

497
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:45.519
<v Speaker 2>what's being created and more controls around it. And we're

498
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:47.720
<v Speaker 2>very proud of work with companies like Overlay on this

499
00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:49.480
<v Speaker 2>specific area. Yeah.

500
00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:49.920
<v Speaker 1>I love that.

501
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:52.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I will say there's a couple other use cases

502
00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:55.240
<v Speaker 2>that are really exciting. I think it's pretty clear we'll

503
00:25:55.240 --> 00:26:00.119
<v Speaker 2>start to see you know, trading happening on chain with

504
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:04.279
<v Speaker 2>more AI into it. It's not surprising that as you

505
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:06.880
<v Speaker 2>have also transaction fees lowering and if you have three

506
00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:10.160
<v Speaker 2>point going up, what we've seen in systems like Nasdaq

507
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:12.519
<v Speaker 2>is I think sixty to eighty percent of that is automated,

508
00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:15.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, algorithmic trading, kind of trading by bots, some

509
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:18.599
<v Speaker 2>sense program bots, and you'll start to see the same

510
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:21.160
<v Speaker 2>thing happening in a world of crypto where anything can

511
00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:25.359
<v Speaker 2>be traded twenty four to seven without restriction and that

512
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:28.599
<v Speaker 2>is inevitable and so being able to kind of build

513
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:32.720
<v Speaker 2>out infrastructure that can support that at scale, I think

514
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:35.680
<v Speaker 2>is probably the next generation of where this technology is

515
00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:36.000
<v Speaker 2>going to go.

516
00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:38.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I've been talking a lot

517
00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:42.519
<v Speaker 1>about that that the token economy, everything running on the

518
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:45.920
<v Speaker 1>blockchain and you can have truly global markets and no

519
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.920
<v Speaker 1>more holidays are opening and closing bill no more weekends

520
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:50.559
<v Speaker 1>twenty four to seven trading.

521
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:54.799
<v Speaker 2>Exactly and twenty four seven trading you know, happening with

522
00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:58.480
<v Speaker 2>an algorithm behind it. That is, you know, got access

523
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:01.400
<v Speaker 2>to your funds that can trans act in financial protocols

524
00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:05.599
<v Speaker 2>and with different financial assets. That is I think the

525
00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:09.519
<v Speaker 2>future of where this heads and is our job to

526
00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:12.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of make sure we build out infrastructure to support text.

527
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:16.680
<v Speaker 1>Going back to data, right, and I'm thinking, well, these

528
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:20.000
<v Speaker 1>are the things I've been noodling on. Do you envision

529
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:23.440
<v Speaker 1>in the future we're going to eat individually, you know,

530
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:27.119
<v Speaker 1>our data on Facebook, right, our activity where we live,

531
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:31.039
<v Speaker 1>our impersonal interests, what type of food, YadA yadae that

532
00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:34.200
<v Speaker 1>we like. Right, that will be on the blockchain, and

533
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:38.319
<v Speaker 1>we can then monetize that and sell it to advertisers.

534
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:42.480
<v Speaker 1>Right Versus Facebook and these social platforms and web two

535
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.599
<v Speaker 1>they monetize it, but they keep the money, right, but

536
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:47.720
<v Speaker 1>you don't get a cut. They just monetize your activity.

537
00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:53.400
<v Speaker 1>But in the future, because of data privacy but also blockchain,

538
00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:55.720
<v Speaker 1>you can sell that to advertisers.

539
00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:59.119
<v Speaker 2>I think there'll be a world where there'll be a

540
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:02.240
<v Speaker 2>much easier way for content creators and that could consider

541
00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:05.400
<v Speaker 2>still content that we create to be compensated at least

542
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:09.599
<v Speaker 2>in part for their for their contributions. And the good

543
00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:12.079
<v Speaker 2>news is I don't think that's that far away. We've

544
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:14.720
<v Speaker 2>actually working with a number of companies that are exploring

545
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:19.279
<v Speaker 2>that exact route. You know, if they if in today's actions,

546
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:21.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, if I watch an ad or if I

547
00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:25.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, you said share my data for your usage,

548
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.359
<v Speaker 2>there's no reason why you can't give a cutback to me.

549
00:28:28.519 --> 00:28:30.839
<v Speaker 2>And with blockchain you can have you know we're talking

550
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.119
<v Speaker 2>about earlier. It might be hard to traditional rails to

551
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:37.279
<v Speaker 2>do that, but it's actually quite easy within the blockchain space.

552
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:40.039
<v Speaker 2>You could even have like very low amounts of payments

553
00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:44.240
<v Speaker 2>going out for for you know, less valuable data, yet

554
00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:48.319
<v Speaker 2>make that extremely efficient with infrastructural like apt toss.

555
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.839
<v Speaker 1>Oh for sure. Now talk a bit about your guys

556
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:56.039
<v Speaker 1>approach to security, but also decentralization, right, and how those

557
00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:57.200
<v Speaker 1>things go hand in hand.

558
00:28:57.799 --> 00:28:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So, I think some people think a lot about

559
00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:02.839
<v Speaker 2>trade off of decentralization and security, and I don't think

560
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:04.680
<v Speaker 2>there's a trade off here all. You can actually shrink

561
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.880
<v Speaker 2>them both independently in some degrees. Right, I'll give you

562
00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:11.400
<v Speaker 2>a couple of examples so we take security extremely seriously.

563
00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:15.640
<v Speaker 2>Move was designed as a language built for security first,

564
00:29:16.759 --> 00:29:21.039
<v Speaker 2>forget performance, you know, forget other aspects. It was really

565
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:23.400
<v Speaker 2>designed and even features. It was designed like, you know,

566
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:27.160
<v Speaker 2>what's the core we can build that actually prevents programmers

567
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:32.160
<v Speaker 2>from making mistakes and you know, allowing mismanagement of funds,

568
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:35.759
<v Speaker 2>those types of things. And so that's kind of one

569
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:38.079
<v Speaker 2>of the core tenets of what we're doing. That's important

570
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:41.759
<v Speaker 2>from a security aspect. The other thing is we we

571
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:44.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, security is also somewhat of a you know,

572
00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:46.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't want our head of security outset, but you know,

573
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:49.559
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of a boring hard work in some sense,

574
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:53.480
<v Speaker 2>it requires us to be just very tedious around how

575
00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:56.680
<v Speaker 2>does code get into the rebuk. How much testing is there.

576
00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:00.599
<v Speaker 2>There's unit tests, there's aggression tests, there's cluster tests, there's

577
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:04.079
<v Speaker 2>security tests we add in. There's fuzzing that goes on

578
00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:06.480
<v Speaker 2>as part of the process. There is a dev net,

579
00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:09.119
<v Speaker 2>test net, then a main net. There's also something we

580
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:11.039
<v Speaker 2>call the prev net to test major features going out.

581
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:15.000
<v Speaker 2>So there's a lot of factors here. Also auditing that

582
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:18.960
<v Speaker 2>happens at different levels of the stack, so it's it's

583
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:22.119
<v Speaker 2>not something that's like a one size fits all type thing.

584
00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:26.680
<v Speaker 2>It's really about putting together a process from ideation all

585
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:32.119
<v Speaker 2>the wage production that kind of checks as many many

586
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:35.880
<v Speaker 2>different angles as possible and tries to prevent as many

587
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:39.720
<v Speaker 2>many issues as possible along that entire journey. And so

588
00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:41.839
<v Speaker 2>it's something that you know, anticipated, really a mindset from

589
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:46.960
<v Speaker 2>an organizational viewpoint, something that everyone internalizes as important. And

590
00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:50.759
<v Speaker 2>the trade off for security here is more about speed

591
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:54.119
<v Speaker 2>of time getting code into production, because if you're not

592
00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:56.400
<v Speaker 2>doing those checks, you can actually push the code much faster.

593
00:30:56.440 --> 00:30:58.839
<v Speaker 2>You kind of the features rolling out, but at a

594
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:03.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, at risk and our toilet risk tolerance is

595
00:31:03.000 --> 00:31:05.359
<v Speaker 2>definitely going to be much more. You know, we want

596
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:08.359
<v Speaker 2>to push both the feature set moving out quickly and security,

597
00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:10.599
<v Speaker 2>and we find a pretty good sweet spot you know,

598
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:13.480
<v Speaker 2>around like you know, doing a lot of these checks

599
00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:17.400
<v Speaker 2>and balances as a first step and building really strong

600
00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:20.359
<v Speaker 2>infrastructure to support that as much automation as possible, and

601
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:25.519
<v Speaker 2>then deploying uh, you know, through the IP process extremely quickly.

602
00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:29.519
<v Speaker 2>For decentralization, we've taken a different perspective, I think than

603
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:31.880
<v Speaker 2>than others in the space. We really focus on like

604
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.160
<v Speaker 2>what is this centralation trying to accomplish here, and it's

605
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:37.720
<v Speaker 2>it's it's about kind of think a couple of different things.

606
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:41.279
<v Speaker 2>One is about the process itself. A desmilized process has

607
00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:43.079
<v Speaker 2>a lot of different participants in it allows a lot

608
00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:46.119
<v Speaker 2>of opportunities for participation as well. So going back to

609
00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:49.519
<v Speaker 2>the idea of production concept I brought up earlier, and

610
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:51.480
<v Speaker 2>when someone has an idea in the aptos's blockchain, they

611
00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:55.519
<v Speaker 2>kind of create an AIP, which is our process for

612
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:59.119
<v Speaker 2>like EPs. Essentially, they submit a proposal, they talk about

613
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:02.319
<v Speaker 2>what they want to do, they wishments, uh, there's community feedback.

614
00:32:02.839 --> 00:32:05.240
<v Speaker 2>Then there's code that comes in. There's more community feedback

615
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:07.799
<v Speaker 2>on that as well kind of review around that, and

616
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:11.160
<v Speaker 2>then there's also that codet shipped validators valudors need to

617
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:14.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of accept that code or not. And then there's

618
00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:17.799
<v Speaker 2>also another check which is on chain governance and tokenholders

619
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:20.480
<v Speaker 2>will then vote to make the actual change go live.

620
00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:24.079
<v Speaker 2>And so this kind of plays into both security and decentralization.

621
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:28.720
<v Speaker 2>You have many opportunities participants to to give their feedback

622
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:33.559
<v Speaker 2>to voice support or you know, concerns, and you have

623
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:36.480
<v Speaker 2>a process that's very open and so this is all

624
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:38.960
<v Speaker 2>really important for the centralization. The other thing that is

625
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:41.839
<v Speaker 2>is about kind of the metrics of the centralization. And

626
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:43.920
<v Speaker 2>so for this, it's like, you know, how easily can

627
00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:47.759
<v Speaker 2>your system be compromised? For a Byzantine fault tolerance system

628
00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:50.599
<v Speaker 2>like ours, we support up to kind of one third

629
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:55.000
<v Speaker 2>of the stake being kind of malicious, uh. From guarantees

630
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:57.079
<v Speaker 2>of that, we can guarant you know, we can ensure

631
00:32:57.160 --> 00:33:01.200
<v Speaker 2>safety and liveness of the protocol. And so there's something

632
00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:03.680
<v Speaker 2>called the knockomotive coefficient. I don't know if you're familiar

633
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:05.799
<v Speaker 2>with that, but it's the idea like what's the minimum

634
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:07.480
<v Speaker 2>number of machines that you need to be compromised in

635
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:10.480
<v Speaker 2>the system in order for it to kind of fall apart,

636
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:14.480
<v Speaker 2>lose liveness or lose safety. And so for for aptos,

637
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:16.279
<v Speaker 2>I think ours is about twenty two right now, which

638
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:19.400
<v Speaker 2>puts us in very much one of the highest among

639
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:23.839
<v Speaker 2>major l ones. It's higher than Salana, for example. And

640
00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:26.720
<v Speaker 2>we do that with about one hundred and fifty notes.

641
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:29.519
<v Speaker 2>And so it's less about the number of nodes and

642
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.279
<v Speaker 2>more about like how make these nodes can be compromised

643
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:35.799
<v Speaker 2>in order for the system kind of fallover. You could

644
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:38.720
<v Speaker 2>have thousands of nodes in the network. But you know,

645
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:40.759
<v Speaker 2>if you have all the stake in one node, those

646
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.440
<v Speaker 2>other nodes do nothing really right and you don't actually

647
00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:45.720
<v Speaker 2>secure the network. They're great for a media sound bite,

648
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:48.720
<v Speaker 2>they're great for a slide deck, but in practice they

649
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:51.519
<v Speaker 2>do not actually help the network one bit. And so

650
00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:53.480
<v Speaker 2>we really focus on the metrics that kind of matter

651
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:56.200
<v Speaker 2>for us. When you think about decentralization, it's really about

652
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:59.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of avoiding, you know, single sources of failure, even

653
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:03.079
<v Speaker 2>a couple of sources of failure. What's the right balance there,

654
00:34:03.640 --> 00:34:05.880
<v Speaker 2>and then from the process standpoint, really making it as

655
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.719
<v Speaker 2>open and transparent as possible with as many participants as

656
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:10.239
<v Speaker 2>can be added to the process.

657
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:14.199
<v Speaker 1>We've seen the stable coin market is growing significantly, and

658
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:17.400
<v Speaker 1>it seems like stable coin legislations around the corner. Are

659
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:21.920
<v Speaker 1>there stable coin issuers on aptoles at USDC and all

660
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:22.760
<v Speaker 1>these other things.

661
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:26.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're really excited, I think. I think a couple

662
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:30.000
<v Speaker 2>of weeks ago we announced that USDT was coming to

663
00:34:30.039 --> 00:34:33.840
<v Speaker 2>ap toss. It's coming very soon and there's a number

664
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:37.960
<v Speaker 2>of others to follow. Also, there was an announcement of aptus

665
00:34:38.039 --> 00:34:40.440
<v Speaker 2>being i think the only chain kind of selected for

666
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.800
<v Speaker 2>the pilot of the e Hong Kong dollar that's coming soon.

667
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:48.719
<v Speaker 2>So we believe that the money movement is of course

668
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.280
<v Speaker 2>very important and having stables is a big part of that.

669
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Obviously we're going to be seeing more stables coming to

670
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:58.760
<v Speaker 2>abtass and amazing rails. But around them we have a

671
00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:02.239
<v Speaker 2>funge Blassis token stand which is extremely powerful and rich

672
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:07.039
<v Speaker 2>to support these assets at high scale, very low fees,

673
00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:09.239
<v Speaker 2>and very interoperability across the ecosystem.

674
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Wow, the news around they eat Hong Kong dollar, that's

675
00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:16.920
<v Speaker 1>pretty big. How did that relationship come about to get

676
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:21.599
<v Speaker 1>a government to essentially issue a stable coin on app toss.

677
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:25.639
<v Speaker 2>A lot of hard work through our partners and our

678
00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:30.360
<v Speaker 2>employees in Asia to work very closely with the government

679
00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:34.199
<v Speaker 2>and with a lot of financial tech companies within that

680
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:36.719
<v Speaker 2>region of the world. And I think that just kind

681
00:35:36.760 --> 00:35:38.880
<v Speaker 2>of shows the trust that those folks have on a

682
00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:41.719
<v Speaker 2>network like apt toss and where the safety, the speed,

683
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:46.320
<v Speaker 2>and the through but really matter when evaluating a project

684
00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:46.519
<v Speaker 2>like that.

685
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:50.960
<v Speaker 1>Now, what's on the roadmap for the reminder twenty twenty

686
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:52.519
<v Speaker 1>four and maybe early twenty twenty.

687
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:56.559
<v Speaker 2>Five, Oh my gosh, so many things we've been teasing

688
00:35:56.559 --> 00:36:00.199
<v Speaker 2>on aptos for a little while there's definitely some very

689
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:03.280
<v Speaker 2>very exciting infrastructure improvements that are going to come that

690
00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:05.039
<v Speaker 2>we think are going to take us beyond what a

691
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:11.039
<v Speaker 2>traditional blockchain can do today. If you think about block

692
00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:14.480
<v Speaker 2>that databases back in the traditional kind of web twscent,

693
00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:17.320
<v Speaker 2>you have rocks dB, you have my sqel, your postgress.

694
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:20.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, people don't get so excited about the technologies

695
00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:23.719
<v Speaker 2>I think as a broad population. Technologists do obviously because

696
00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:25.760
<v Speaker 2>they power a lot of the back ends of the

697
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:30.000
<v Speaker 2>largest technicomies in the world. But there's a lot of

698
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:33.039
<v Speaker 2>function that goes above that stack before you build applications,

699
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:35.679
<v Speaker 2>and so we're pretty excited about some of the technology

700
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:38.639
<v Speaker 2>really on there alongside that. I think something we have

701
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:41.360
<v Speaker 2>announced in the past is apt us Build. Apt Us

702
00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:44.800
<v Speaker 2>Build is a product from Aptos Labs to allow you

703
00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:48.679
<v Speaker 2>to construct rich applications and be a one stop shop

704
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:51.760
<v Speaker 2>for you as a blockchain developer. Let me give you

705
00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:54.239
<v Speaker 2>a little example. So again, if you're building directly on

706
00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:56.719
<v Speaker 2>top of a database like my squel or Postgress, there's

707
00:36:56.719 --> 00:36:59.079
<v Speaker 2>a lot of seacle course you have to write, there's

708
00:36:59.159 --> 00:37:01.159
<v Speaker 2>a lot of infratructure, the kind of glue you have

709
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:05.159
<v Speaker 2>to glue together multiple databases or add layers on top

710
00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:07.840
<v Speaker 2>layers of abstraction to get APIs that would make sense

711
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:10.719
<v Speaker 2>for your application. App to us build kind of does

712
00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:13.159
<v Speaker 2>a lot of that hard kind of glue work for you.

713
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:18.960
<v Speaker 2>It provides APIs for directly minting NFTSD, APIs for acticing

714
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:22.960
<v Speaker 2>data on chain in different ways, kind of more in

715
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.360
<v Speaker 2>databasel like format or more kind of even like through

716
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.000
<v Speaker 2>the full note kind of APIs, if you will. And

717
00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:35.559
<v Speaker 2>it's starting to add more infrastructure around gas station fee management,

718
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:39.440
<v Speaker 2>custody solutions. We have something called as to us connect

719
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:41.440
<v Speaker 2>which allows you to log in with your Google ID

720
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:44.599
<v Speaker 2>or your Apple IDA and have a wallet in the

721
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:47.519
<v Speaker 2>back end kind of secure with a zero knowledge proof

722
00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:50.800
<v Speaker 2>between the two. So there's some anonymity and privacy for you.

723
00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:54.599
<v Speaker 2>And this kind of infrastructure adds up into being like

724
00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:58.760
<v Speaker 2>use application developer, really focus on your app. What are

725
00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:01.199
<v Speaker 2>you trying to solve? Are you trying to make you know,

726
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:04.199
<v Speaker 2>videos more accessible in different parts of the world. Are

727
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:06.519
<v Speaker 2>you trying to build a new game that takes advantage

728
00:38:06.519 --> 00:38:09.840
<v Speaker 2>of the dnamics of web three? Focus on those things

729
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:13.000
<v Speaker 2>and those user use cases, and you know the glue

730
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:14.280
<v Speaker 2>is going to all be there for you to just

731
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:16.800
<v Speaker 2>integrate a blockchain. You don't have to hire ten blockchain

732
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:19.559
<v Speaker 2>engineers and smart contract developers and all this other stuff.

733
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:22.480
<v Speaker 2>You can put a bulk or your resources into building

734
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:26.079
<v Speaker 2>out great engaging experiences for your audience as opposed to

735
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:28.519
<v Speaker 2>focus on the blockchain. And so I've talked Bill something

736
00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:32.039
<v Speaker 2>we're extremely excited about. It's already kind of available in

737
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:35.519
<v Speaker 2>the early form. There's many functionalities, much of the functionalities there,

738
00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:38.639
<v Speaker 2>but there'll be much more coming in the throughout the

739
00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:39.679
<v Speaker 2>rest of the year and at beyond.

740
00:38:40.239 --> 00:38:43.159
<v Speaker 1>That's great. I love that there's things that I want

741
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:45.960
<v Speaker 1>to test out and do, but I'm waiting for like

742
00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:48.400
<v Speaker 1>a guy interface that I can easily do it because

743
00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:50.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm not a coder or anything like they're or a developer.

744
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:52.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I think that's that's the goal as well,

745
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:54.840
<v Speaker 2>So I make things much more accessible even to a

746
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:57.599
<v Speaker 2>wide range of people just wanting to play around the

747
00:38:57.639 --> 00:39:00.880
<v Speaker 2>blockchain and try test things out. So you're definitely the

748
00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:03.719
<v Speaker 2>target target audience. The other thing that's exciting about us

749
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:05.760
<v Speaker 2>that we're working on is kind of things we can

750
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:07.400
<v Speaker 2>talk about, of course, is we've announced that out to

751
00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:11.960
<v Speaker 2>us experienced a couple of new technology efforts we're pumped about.

752
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:17.280
<v Speaker 2>We have Raptor, which is the new consensus protocol being

753
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:21.800
<v Speaker 2>rolled out throughout twenty four and beyond. Raptor is going

754
00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:26.039
<v Speaker 2>maybe just a brief history of consensus protocols. There's PBFT

755
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:29.079
<v Speaker 2>that was kind of from nineteen ninety nine define kind

756
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:33.559
<v Speaker 2>of the optimal latency possible and consensus. We've achieved that

757
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:36.239
<v Speaker 2>earlier this year. We're really proud of that, obviously, but

758
00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:38.679
<v Speaker 2>it's not just about achieving the optimal latency. It's about

759
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:41.679
<v Speaker 2>how do we now make sure we shrink that entire

760
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:44.719
<v Speaker 2>user latency too as close as we can to get

761
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:47.719
<v Speaker 2>the optimal liency as possible, and we're going to be

762
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:49.960
<v Speaker 2>using Raptor to do that. It's going to actually support

763
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:52.800
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the unstructured world of the Internet much

764
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:56.760
<v Speaker 2>better to handle kind of downtime from nodes while achieving

765
00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:00.719
<v Speaker 2>those high high throughputs and extreme liancy. There's major roleout's

766
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:03.280
<v Speaker 2>going to take place with that. We expect to see

767
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:07.280
<v Speaker 2>aliency decrease, throughput go up and kind of pushing us

768
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:09.519
<v Speaker 2>even beyond where we are as class leading to the

769
00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:11.960
<v Speaker 2>next stage of that. There's also the work on block

770
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:17.000
<v Speaker 2>stmv two blockasting kind of the original protocol is something

771
00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:19.760
<v Speaker 2>that we're really proud launched with aptos from day one.

772
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:22.840
<v Speaker 2>It's something that really DEFINEDES and made us unique from

773
00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:25.280
<v Speaker 2>other networks. It is a form of dynamic parlism. So

774
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:27.400
<v Speaker 2>if you have the history of paralism in the space,

775
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:30.800
<v Speaker 2>you have kind of the sequential execution executing transactions one

776
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:33.679
<v Speaker 2>by one with ethereum. You have the static paralism which

777
00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:37.519
<v Speaker 2>networks like Salona do, which you can defend defined dependees

778
00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:40.760
<v Speaker 2>up front and kind of put more owners on the programmer,

779
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:44.239
<v Speaker 2>and the system uses the dependencies to then schedule transactions

780
00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:46.519
<v Speaker 2>as concurrently as it can. And you have kind of

781
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:49.280
<v Speaker 2>this third wave of parallelism, which we call dynamic paralism,

782
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:52.599
<v Speaker 2>which can use those techniques but additionally has a runtime component.

783
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:55.239
<v Speaker 2>That runtime component means that you don't have to specify

784
00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:58.000
<v Speaker 2>anything well, system will try to figure out for you

785
00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:00.480
<v Speaker 2>what's to run in parallel and take care of about

786
00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:04.480
<v Speaker 2>on the back end. And the dynamic paraism allows more

787
00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:08.199
<v Speaker 2>concurrency in many cases. Uh. And so what we've seen

788
00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:10.559
<v Speaker 2>and we've been excited about is people have been kind

789
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:12.840
<v Speaker 2>of quick to adopt even the blockst TM and their

790
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:16.639
<v Speaker 2>their technology stacks. We've seen it with Polygon, with dark Net,

791
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:21.360
<v Speaker 2>with with say and even I think Monad and many others.

792
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:25.760
<v Speaker 2>And so block Test in v two is going to

793
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:27.960
<v Speaker 2>be the next duration of that solving the ability to

794
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:30.719
<v Speaker 2>salve to scale to many many cores and machine and

795
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:33.320
<v Speaker 2>we see the trend hardware trend is going to be

796
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:36.920
<v Speaker 2>many more cores on a validator. That's just the kind

797
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:40.039
<v Speaker 2>of way that More's law is progressing. And it's been

798
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:42.199
<v Speaker 2>going that way for a little while. So going from

799
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:46.880
<v Speaker 2>MADI machine having say thirty two cores today going into

800
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:49.840
<v Speaker 2>sixty four, one hundred twenty cores two and fifty six cores,

801
00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:52.159
<v Speaker 2>we want to take advantage of all that hardware, and

802
00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:55.639
<v Speaker 2>blockist v two is designed specifically to do that. The

803
00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:58.360
<v Speaker 2>last area that we're really excited about from infrasturcer standpoints

804
00:41:58.400 --> 00:41:59.719
<v Speaker 2>moved to I think I talked to us some of

805
00:41:59.719 --> 00:42:03.840
<v Speaker 2>the high there, but we we we want to build

806
00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:06.760
<v Speaker 2>something that is kind of almost the endgame for Web

807
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:11.039
<v Speaker 2>three developers. It's definitely a challenge for what three developers

808
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.559
<v Speaker 2>today compared to the traditional programming they're used to. And

809
00:42:14.599 --> 00:42:16.039
<v Speaker 2>if you code in Rust or if you code in

810
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:18.519
<v Speaker 2>C PUS plus or C or Java, all these kind

811
00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:22.039
<v Speaker 2>of traditional languages. You have so many tools available to you,

812
00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:24.000
<v Speaker 2>you have so much functionality available to the language it

813
00:42:24.039 --> 00:42:26.880
<v Speaker 2>self has evolved to support what programmers need in terms

814
00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:30.159
<v Speaker 2>of data structures, in terms of program interfaces, and so

815
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:33.000
<v Speaker 2>move to is designed to kind of be that really

816
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:37.719
<v Speaker 2>accessible but yet safe and secure and performance what three

817
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:41.159
<v Speaker 2>development environment for you. It will include things like dynamic

818
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:45.199
<v Speaker 2>dispatch that is safe. It will make sure we support

819
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.960
<v Speaker 2>the form of verification that ensure the initial there of

820
00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:50.760
<v Speaker 2>safety on top of your protocols. We're building out a

821
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:53.599
<v Speaker 2>VM that will rival you know, all the modern you

822
00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:56.719
<v Speaker 2>know vms that exist in the in the current Internet world,

823
00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:59.519
<v Speaker 2>and all these things will add up to something I

824
00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:02.880
<v Speaker 2>think that's a true delight for web developed Web three

825
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:04.199
<v Speaker 2>developers to code with.

826
00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:08.440
<v Speaker 1>Wow, every you guys got a lot of full plate

827
00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:11.760
<v Speaker 1>on your road map, but it's exciting and I definitely

828
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:14.079
<v Speaker 1>want to have you back on as these things go

829
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:16.920
<v Speaker 1>to you know, live and production and so forth. Really

830
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:21.800
<v Speaker 1>excited about that e Hong Kong stable coin on apt toss.

831
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.440
<v Speaker 1>That really picks my interest. But I know we're running

832
00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:28.880
<v Speaker 1>up on time, so let's hit some wrap up questions here. First,

833
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:31.119
<v Speaker 1>if you could create your own metaverse, what would the theme be?

834
00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:36.599
<v Speaker 2>Oh gosh, honestly, I feel like Web three can be

835
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:39.599
<v Speaker 2>that next version of the metaverse, or like a very

836
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:42.679
<v Speaker 2>strong base for it. I would love to see. I

837
00:43:42.679 --> 00:43:43.800
<v Speaker 2>would love to see.

838
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:48.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, aptosts become that m HM and rapid fire. Questions

839
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<v Speaker 1>favorite free Oh Japanese, favorite musician or band.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I'll just say nineties rap Favorite movie, Oh, tough

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<v Speaker 2>fun right now? Interstellar? Probably favorite book? Oh, my gosh,

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't read a book in a long time. I'll skipf.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you're not working at aptoss, what are you

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<v Speaker 1>doing for fun?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? As is the fun for me? Spoken like a.

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<v Speaker 1>True entrepreneur and development.

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<v Speaker 2>It's time with my kids and my wife for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Avery. Like I said, I gotta have you back on.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm really excited about this stuff you guys are working on.

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<v Speaker 1>But thank you so much for joining me.

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<v Speaker 2>It's my pleasure. Tony