WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.040 Wait, the Lucky land Slots. You can get lucky just 2 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:04.080 about anywhere. 3 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:07.799 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 4 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:09.759 weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a 5 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:13.039 while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's 6 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:15.720 just these cash prizes add up quick, so I suggest 7 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:17.719 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 8 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:18.879 start getting lucky. 9 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:22.559 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you 10 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.320 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void We're prohibited by Law 11 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.039 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 12 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:32.479 Hey guys, it is Ryan. I'm not sure if you 13 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:34.240 know this about me, but I'm a bit of a 14 00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:36.240 fun fanatic when I can. I like to work, but 15 00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:37.000 I like fun too. 16 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:37.679 It's a thing. 17 00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:39.759 And now the truth is out there, I can tell 18 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:42.920 you about my favorite place to have fun, Chumba Casino. 19 00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:45.960 They have hundreds of social casino style games to choose from, 20 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:50.399 with new games released each week. You can play for free, anytime, anywhere, 21 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:53.359 and each day brings a new chance to collect daily bonuses. 22 00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:56.000 So join me and the fun. Sign up now at 23 00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:58.079 Chumba Casino dot com. 24 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:01.119 No, we're just necessary daoidhever Everyboy Loss Tis Conditions eighteen plus. 25 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.760 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 26 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:14.879 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.239 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 28 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.959 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.560 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:33.439 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 31 00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:46.920 Good evening in the tight knit community of Lorain, Ohio. 32 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:51.959 A whirlwind of horror swept through as unsettling allegation surface. 33 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:56.799 A trusted bus driver and her alleged companion accused of 34 00:01:56.840 --> 00:02:00.920 shattering the innocence of preschoolers in the recent expected head 35 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:05.799 Start program. The verdict lifelong prison sentences that would cast 36 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:09.840 a shadow over a community and initiate an untiring quest 37 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:13.759 for truth. The Edge of Doubt is a meticulously researched 38 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:17.680 true crime narrative that delves into the reverberations of a 39 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:22.360 sensational trial. This gripping tale is anchored in three decades 40 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:26.599 of unwavering claims of innocence. As the pages turn, you'll 41 00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:30.159 find yourself torn between the scales of justice and the 42 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:33.280 resilience of the human spirit. In a world that is 43 00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:36.599 quick to judge. The Edge of Doubt compels you to 44 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:40.080 lend an ear to the whispers of truth. This is 45 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:44.280 your invitation to dive into a powerful account that will 46 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:48.919 challenge your assumptions and unveil the complexities of human nature. 47 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:52.479 Read it and prepare to see the world with new eyes. 48 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:55.639 The book that we're featuring this evening is The Edge 49 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:59.520 of Doubt, The Trial of Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen, 50 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:04.919 with my special guest, retired attorney and author David Morldy. 51 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:07.599 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 52 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:09.360 this interview. David Marldy. 53 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:12.400 Thank you, Dan. It's my pleasure to be here. 54 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:15.680 It's my pleasure to have you and such a fascinating story. 55 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:17.400 Congratulations on this book. 56 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:18.000 Thank you. 57 00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:20.319 As you do in this book, you get right down 58 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:24.039 to business and you talk about August fourth, nineteen ninety four, 59 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:30.319 Judge Lynette McGuff and it involves preschooled children participating in 60 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:34.879 the Lorraine head Start program. Tell us about the allegations 61 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:38.280 and just a description of the people involved, as you 62 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:39.280 do right away. 63 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:43.840 The case actually began May seventh of nineteen ninety three, 64 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:48.439 when Nina Zorich came home from the head Start school. 65 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:51.280 She was in the afternoon class and she told her 66 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:53.800 mother that she hadn't gone to school that day, that 67 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.800 the bus driver in Nancy Smith It said school was 68 00:03:56.840 --> 00:04:00.479 closed and she went to Nancy's house where she and 69 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:04.919 three other head Start children ages four and five years old. 70 00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:10.520 I met Nancy's so called boyfriend now, who they described 71 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:16.079 as an African American. Nancy is white, and at Nancy's home, 72 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:20.360 they claim that various sex acts were done to them 73 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:25.639 by Nancy and Joseph. They also claimed that they were 74 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:28.680 urinated upon and had to drink urine, which is sort 75 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:33.000 of a satanic element to it. The police then got involved, 76 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:35.399 and I don't know how much you want me to 77 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:39.439 go into what followed up until Nancy's arrest and that 78 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:42.160 of Joseph Allen, but I'm happy to get into that. 79 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:46.439 Well, let's get into the investigation of these allegations. You 80 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:51.959 right away introduce Detective Tom Cantu from the Lorraine Police Department. 81 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:55.319 So tell us about these allegations, some more about them, 82 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:59.800 and then how the Lorraine Police Department how they proceeded. 83 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:03.439 Well. Tom Cantu was the initial detective on a case. 84 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:10.000 He interviewed obviously Anina Zorich. He also contacted Nancy Smith. 85 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:15.000 Nancy Smith was a single mother with four children at home, 86 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:19.480 who lived with her parents, had no criminal record, not 87 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:23.680 even a speeding ticket. He tried to ferret out if 88 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:28.279 anything had happened at Nancy's house, Canvass the neighborhood, talked 89 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:31.160 to Nancy, talked to her parents, and he had some 90 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:34.680 doubts about it. And at the same time, Nina's mother, 91 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:39.319 Marge Bronson, was talking to other parents in the head 92 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:42.040 Start program, and two in particular and said, oh, my 93 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.439 daughter said that your son was with her, your daughter 94 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:49.240 was with her at this house, and then explained what 95 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:52.279 had happened to her. And then of course Cantu had 96 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:56.560 to investigate all of those elements. He eventually talked to 97 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:00.319 all eleven children that were on the school bus. Wally 98 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.480 denied that anything had happened, that they liked Nancy, and 99 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:07.240 eventually she was vehement that she had not done these things, 100 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:10.040 that she did not have a black boyfriend named Joseph, 101 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:13.839 she had a white boyfriend named Charles, and she voluntarily 102 00:06:13.879 --> 00:06:17.199 agreed to a polygraph which says she was telling the truth. 103 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:21.720 In the meantime, Nina's parents went to a local television station, 104 00:06:22.120 --> 00:06:26.680 they went to the newspaper and lo and behold, you 105 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:30.120 have fifteen other parents coming forward with their children, ten 106 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:32.759 of whom were not on Nancy's bus. One. It didn't 107 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:35.040 it wasn't even the head Start program. But there was 108 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:39.639 tremendous pressure in a hysteria in the Lorain community. And 109 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:44.160 Cantu was told he was being promoted to a desk 110 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:48.360 job and the investigation was being turned over to another detective. 111 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:52.279 So at that point we have another detective involved who 112 00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:56.920 is basically stymied as well. He reinterviews the children. There's 113 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:01.800 all kinds of conflicts in their testimony. They provide different 114 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:06.079 locations as to where this happened. One boy identifies someone 115 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:11.759 who the police later clear the descriptions of this Joseph, 116 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:16.399 this elusive Joseph. He's a black man. He's a white man. 117 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:19.759 He's a white man with black makeup on his face. 118 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:23.879 He's a young man, he's an old man with receding hairline. 119 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:26.800 He has blue eyes, he has dark eyes. They're all 120 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:30.639 over the place. But they identify Nancy as the person 121 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:33.879 who took them to Joseph. And with all of this pressure, 122 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:38.680 The police continue their investigation the last about six months 123 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:42.240 until they are working on another case and man by 124 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:44.800 the name of Joseph Allen, a black man, a painter, 125 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:48.959 a handyman, comes to their attention. He is an African American. 126 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:52.879 He does have some white splotches on his skin, some burns. 127 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:57.319 He has a prior conviction for sex abuse of a minor. 128 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:01.839 He'd spent three years in prison. And they go to 129 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:07.800 search his home and they find children's toys, clothing, books, 130 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:11.759 and they think they've got their man now. They fail 131 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:16.040 to really consider that he sometimes had woman and her 132 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:19.240 two children living with him, and nieces and nephews. But 133 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:23.160 now they finally feel that they have the elusive Joseph 134 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:27.040 Allen and they can proceed. And even though they had 135 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:31.920 a photo lineup where the children could not identify him 136 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:35.240 or only maybe one did they and probably get to 137 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:38.320 this s latter, they also had a live lineup that 138 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:42.759 is just an absolute disgrace in terms of went on 139 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:44.679 there and identifying Joseph Allen. 140 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:48.799 You talk about the prosecutor in this case, Rosenbaum, and 141 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:52.399 how he conducted himself at this trial as well. He 142 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:54.639 was known as by the book, and what does buy 143 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:57.600 the book mean as a prosecutor in terms of an 144 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:01.120 advantage for the prosecutor and the disadvantage for the defense. 145 00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:04.600 In nineteen ninety three nineteen ninety four, there's a term 146 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:08.240 that we use in both civil and criminal case called discovery. 147 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:11.519 It means what the other side is entitled to receive 148 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:16.080 from the prosecution in preparation for the trial. And in 149 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:20.120 Ohio at that time, the obligation was to turn over 150 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:23.320 what is known as exalatory evidence, that that those types 151 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:26.120 of things that tend to show that the defendants were innocent. 152 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:30.200 But there's also an aspect the police take a number 153 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:34.960 of statements, both recorded and written statements, but under the 154 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:38.879 law at that time, of the discovery law, those statements 155 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:42.039 did not have to be turned over to the defense 156 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:47.600 attorneys until that witness testified at trial. And then after 157 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:51.919 that the witness testified on direct examination, they go into 158 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:54.240 the judges chambers, they pull out the statement, the judge 159 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:57.440 listens to it, see if there's inconsistencies, and then it's 160 00:09:57.440 --> 00:10:02.159 turned over to the defendant attorneys to cross examine that 161 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:05.840 that witness. And you know, it's a it's a it's 162 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:09.759 a it's a huge disadvantage today and that and by 163 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:13.440 when you ask the question by the book prosecutor, he 164 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.759 follows that rule. Some prosecutors are a little more open 165 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:20.320 than that would provide those statements earlier. But you know 166 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:23.200 he was he was within his rights not to turn 167 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:29.519 those statements over, at least under the discovery rules about inconsistency. However, 168 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:33.440 if there's anything exculpatory in those statements, then he did 169 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:35.399 have a duty to turn that over. And that's one 170 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:36.840 of the big issues in the case. 171 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:40.960 Joseph Allen has a previous record. How was it that 172 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:45.759 the attorneys were not able to separate those trials given 173 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:49.440 the risks of the association with a convicted felon. 174 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:52.600 It's within the discretion of the judge to whether to 175 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:55.840 consolidate two matters, and in this case, you know that 176 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:59.120 the judge considers the economy of having one trial. She 177 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:03.919 considered the trauma of having the children testify in two trials, 178 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:07.919 and that's weighed against the prejudice, particularly here of Nancy Smith, 179 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:12.000 of being in the courtroom with a convicted sex offender, 180 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:16.440 and was within the judges discretion to do that, and 181 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:20.360 that was upheld on appeal, but it obviously had very, 182 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:22.559 very dire consequences for Nancy Smith. 183 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:25.799 Give us some of the highlights or low lights of 184 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:30.480 this trial where Nancy testifies at this trial, but give 185 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:32.600 us some of the issues that were raised at this 186 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:37.720 trial that will become again issues that they fight for 187 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:38.519 later on. 188 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:41.919 Well the trial. My description of the trial ASTs for 189 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:46.919 chapters and chapters. I think what comes through, and it's 190 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:49.360 not evident at the time of the trial, is that 191 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:55.480 several key witnesses have verdured themselves. We're talking about two 192 00:11:55.639 --> 00:12:00.000 parents of the child quote unquote victims. Well, another bus 193 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:04.279 striver who claims that she saw Joseph Allen and Nancy 194 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:08.559 Smith together, which is a very I don't think there's 195 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:11.679 any question that it was an exaggerated, fabricated type thing, 196 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:15.600 So that's certainly critical. The other is, whenever you have 197 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:19.159 witnesses who are four and five years old, the judge 198 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:23.360 is the gatekeeper yes on whether they are competent to 199 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:28.320 testify and judgment. Can they tell the difference between right 200 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:31.399 and wrong, between a lie and the truth? Will they 201 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:33.600 be punished if they tell a lie? And the judge 202 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:36.519 makes that determination in her courtroom, it was a very 203 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:40.279 low bar for these kids for her to say that 204 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:44.080 they were competent to testify, and that's extremely important in 205 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:47.879 any child sex abuse case. If the child testifies that 206 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:54.639 these things happen, that is extremely powerful testimony. It's very 207 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:58.879 hard for a jury to ignore that. And we can 208 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:03.360 go into why the children's testimony was so powerful and 209 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:05.480 how they can be so effective if in fact, what 210 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:08.320 they were telling had happened, and that has to do 211 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:11.799 with the interview process and how they had been conditioned 212 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:15.440 and programmed to tell their stories. But I'll wait for 213 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:18.120 a question from you on that one. 214 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:20.440 Well, that's what you get to. In part two, you 215 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:25.480 introduce a journalist named Paul Fassinelli and who had joined 216 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.279 the Chronicle in nineteen eighty six, and he had a 217 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.840 popular column and he was intrigued by one of the 218 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:35.000 people that wrote in letters to the editor, a Raymond Kant, 219 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:37.320 and so he had read a few of these letters 220 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:40.279 and he was intrigued. Tell us about what interested him 221 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:43.279 about those letters and as a result, what did he 222 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:44.480 do well, Paul. 223 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:48.279 It was somewhat of an outspoken journalist. He had his 224 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:51.120 detractors and he had his fans, but one of the 225 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:55.320 letters to the editor directed him towards a child psychologist 226 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:58.039 who had written a book about how you question young 227 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:06.159 children about sex abuse, and he got copies of the statements, 228 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:09.039 the interviews of the children, you know, the original interviews, 229 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.440 which were disclosed you know, at trial, and were available, 230 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:17.559 and he did some research and sent them to two 231 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:22.600 child psychologists who were known for their expertise in partying 232 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:27.720 out whether the interviews were tainted or contaminated right. And 233 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.639 when he sent them to the two psychologists, they both 234 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:35.639 agreed to review them, but no charge, and both were 235 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:39.879 appalled by the way the children had been questioned. They 236 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:44.399 didn't believe that the police and the social workers had 237 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:49.840 broken the rules of interrogation on purpose, but they had. Nonetheless, 238 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:52.200 they were some of the worst interviews that they had 239 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:55.759 ever seen. And there's a proper way to interview children 240 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.759 about sex abuse four and five year olds. The first 241 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:02.519 is you don't ask eating questions, because the children are 242 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:06.600 smart enough they want to please the person who's questioning them, 243 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.639 and they will usually agree with a leading question. You 244 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.399 don't repeat questions, you know, until I mean, the child 245 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.159 will eventually change the answer. And you don't want a 246 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:21.159 questioner who has bias a confirmation bias. There's these things 247 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.639 happen and he or she is trying to confirm that, 248 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.600 and so all of these things happened. You don't reward 249 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:30.759 the child. Oh yeah, you can have a can of 250 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:32.759 pop if you answer this question. You know, if you 251 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:35.120 don't answer this, your sister is going to be attacked 252 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:38.039 by it. By Joseph. The proper way to do it 253 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:42.519 is to ask open ended questions. You should develop a 254 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.159 rapport with the child and say, hey, I understand things 255 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:47.559 have been happening at the school. Tell me what's happened, 256 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:50.720 and don't leave out any details, and then you let 257 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:55.399 the child talk. That's called spontaneous recall. And that is 258 00:15:55.440 --> 00:16:00.559 the most reliable information that anyone can get. You only 259 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:05.279 you try to limit your number of interviews. One is great, 260 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:08.360 two is probably adequate. But in this case, we have 261 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:12.360 four statements of Nina Zorich that are that were recorded. 262 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:16.159 They're probably more, and as they continue, they become more 263 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:20.159 and more unreliable. And that's exactly what happened in this case. 264 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:23.279 Now you're talking is called part three, and you talk 265 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:26.840 about the civil case, the incredible civil case in July 266 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:30.159 twenty third, nineteen ninety six, and with and you introduce 267 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:34.039 the character William Thomas Locke, executive director of Lorraine County 268 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:39.799 Community Action Agency, that the organization that oversaw the Lorraine 269 00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:41.879 County head Start program. 270 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:42.720 Right in the bus drivers. 271 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.399 Yes, yeah, So tell us what he believes about this 272 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:50.000 Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen and what he does. 273 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:54.720 Well, he was when the verdicts came out. He was outraged. Shevy, 274 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:58.440 He could not believe this had happened. First of all, 275 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:00.840 there were certain safeguards that were involved in the head 276 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:04.400 Start program. Nancy was you know, the allegations were that 277 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:08.119 Nancy would leave three or four children on the bus, 278 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:10.559 not let them get off at the school, and then 279 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.240 take them to Joseph's house. Well, they had besides Nancy 280 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.160 and the bus, there was an AID. So they had 281 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:17.759 to argue that it had happened on a day when 282 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:19.880 there wasn't an AID, and sometimes if there wasn't an AID, 283 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.279 there was, you know, a parent that was on board. 284 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:26.200 So and the teachers came out from the school and 285 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:28.359 met each bus they were unloaded one at a time. 286 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:31.519 He just couldn't believe that this had happened, and he 287 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:34.960 was roundly criticized in the newspapers for not agreeing with 288 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.480 the jury verdict, you know, and one newspaper actually called 289 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:42.920 for his resignation because he the jury heard all the 290 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:46.200 evidence and obviously he had not. He enters the story 291 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:51.039 when no surprise for the parents. After there have been 292 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:55.000 these convictions and the appeals have been exhausted for Nancy Smith, 293 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.640 they filed civil lawsuits against the head Start program, Loraine 294 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:03.079 County Community Action Agency, which you said was the umbrella organization, 295 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:07.400 claiming that they're responsible, they were negligent, that they were 296 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:13.039 negligent in hiring, supervising and retaining Nancy Smith, that they 297 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:16.559 failed then to protect the children from these awful things 298 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:20.480 that happened. And this then became a very long drawn 299 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:26.119 out lawsuit which had an unfortunate ending for those of us, 300 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:33.359 at least from my perspective. The insurance company eventually capitulated 301 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:36.920 and offered settlements of one point five million to each 302 00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:39.839 of the four families. Now, you've got to understand, the 303 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:44.200 issue in this case was not whether Nancy Smith and 304 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:46.960 Joseph Allen had done these things that had been established 305 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:49.440 in the criminal case, and so you know, it was 306 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:52.640 an open question whether that can be re litigated. The 307 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:55.799 question was whether the head start of the agency was 308 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:58.799 put on notice of some things that had happened regarding 309 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:02.359 Nancy that have larded them that she was going to 310 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:05.759 do these things. And the insurance company, after I can't 311 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:09.400 recall it was eight or nine years of litigation, finally 312 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.119 wanted to get the book, get the case off their books, 313 00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:13.599 and they paid on it. 314 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:18.119 You talk in part four. You introduced the Ohio Innocence 315 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:22.079 Project July two thousand and six, the two thousand and seven, 316 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.480 and it's based in Cincinnati, and you introduce two important characters, 317 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:30.880 Mark Gotsey who's the founder, and Jenny Carroll, former public defender, 318 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:34.319 and a couple of students, students in their second year, 319 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:37.200 Chef and Madonna. So tell us a little bit about 320 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:40.880 what happens with the Ohio Innocence Project being involved, getting 321 00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:43.519 involved and Amber Brnish. 322 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:47.359 There are a number of chapters there, but the Innocence 323 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:50.640 Project got involved when all of the peals had been 324 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:55.720 exhausted for Nancy Smith. Several years thereafter. It had come 325 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:59.279 to their attention through another investigator, someone that had been 326 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:02.000 hired by the family, who worked for them trying to 327 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.680 find exculpatory evidence. Right after the trial, and he continued 328 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:09.960 to work for the family for free. He had a 329 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:13.880 lot of reliability for the Ohio Innocence Project and when 330 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:17.279 he brought this case to them, Mark Godsei reviewed it 331 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:20.960 and was convinced that, you know, a miscarriage of justice 332 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:24.200 had occurred. He read those statements of the children's statements 333 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:28.359 that showed contamination and also, we haven't talked about it. 334 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:31.799 The children at trial had no difficulty pointing out who 335 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:35.200 Joseph Allen was in the corporate However, it came to 336 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:38.640 light through Fatchinelli's article that there was a videotape of 337 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:42.599 that lineup to show the children and how they reacted. 338 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:46.200 There were seven children went in for absolutely could not 339 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:50.599 identify him. One looked as if the father had whispered 340 00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:54.559 in his ear as to it's number two. And then 341 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:58.559 we have Nina Zorich and her mother eight nine agonizing 342 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:01.960 minutes where she had entifi' is the wrong person. He's 343 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.759 given second and third chances. The mother points at point says, oh, 344 00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:11.079 it's this person. It's just an incredible videotape. It's available 345 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:15.279 online if people want to watch that. But anyway, Gatzi 346 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:18.680 had seen that, and he obviously met with Nancy and 347 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:23.480 became very much an advocate for her. Because there were 348 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:27.359 no appeals left, her best chance of getting out of 349 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:29.359 prison was through paroles. She was going to have a 350 00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:31.839 parole hearing. One of the difficulties with the parole hearing 351 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.799 was that they want to know that The parole board 352 00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.519 wants to know that you've been rehabilitated, which means that 353 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.039 you have admitted that you've done these things, You've taken 354 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:44.880 a sex offender course, and you're ready to be reintegrated 355 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:50.000 into society. Nancy will not do that. And you know, 356 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:53.759 they put together a great document for the parle board. 357 00:21:54.119 --> 00:21:57.440 It shows the likelihood that the jury had gotten it wrong. 358 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:00.480 It also showed, you know, what an exemplary person she 359 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:02.680 had been in prison, the things that she had done. 360 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:08.079 But she would not admit to these crimes and she 361 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.799 knew that that would probably end her opportunity for parole, 362 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:16.079 and in fact, her parole was initially what was denied. 363 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:18.759 And then you asked me about Amber Brownish, and I'll 364 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:22.240 go in to that. You know, after her parole was denied, Amber, 365 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:24.319 who had been fifteen I think at the time her 366 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:28.839 mom had been convicted, was now an adult, was her champion. 367 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.519 She was always uppering the attorneys and prodding them to 368 00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:35.200 do things, and she decided she had to do something 369 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:37.960 on her own. So she contacted the Lorraine police, not 370 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:40.960 expecting anything to happen. But the police chief who had 371 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:44.559 been involved and been in charge of the detectives when 372 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.160 her mom was convicted, that's the person that I know. 373 00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:51.359 He since passed away Sea rivera very warm, a good individual, 374 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:54.200 and he said, come on in. He gave her, you know, 375 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:57.400 let's talk about it. And he suggested to her that 376 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:02.240 she go to the alleged victims who were now adults, 377 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.240 and see if they would admit that these things hadn't happened. 378 00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:09.039 And he even gave her a tape recorder and so 379 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:12.559 she could secretly tape record Christmas. Allowed in Ohio only 380 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:15.880 one person has to consent to that. That didn't work out, 381 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.359 and then he said he would help her with filing 382 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:22.440 some paperwork for a clemency. Then, when the place chief 383 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:25.720 was contacted by Mark Gotsey from the Ohio Innocence Project, 384 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:29.680 he was not as cooperative, and Amber went in and 385 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:33.279 tape recorded some of their conversations in hopes that that 386 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:35.119 would speed her mother's release. 387 00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:37.680 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear 388 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:41.200 from our sponsor. My wife Lisa and I were talking 389 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:44.200 recently about a favorite restaurant of ours and one of 390 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:48.759 our favorite meals there, seafood risotto, and we've both talked 391 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:50.680 about how great it would be to be able to 392 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:55.119 have delicious meals like that at home. Well Cooked Unity 393 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.440 is the first Chef to you service, delivering locally sourced 394 00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:03.400 meals from award winning chefs right to your door every 395 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:08.400 week and cheaper than other delivery options. We ordered meals 396 00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:13.359 with a Mediterranean dietary preference. All of the meals arrive fresh, 397 00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:16.799 never frozen, in packaging that keeps meals fresh in the 398 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:20.359 fridge or up to seven days. All of the meals 399 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:24.920 we ordered were absolutely delicious. Some of our favorites were 400 00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:30.000 the Chopolte lime salmon with Brussels sprouts by Chef Reuben Garcia, 401 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:34.920