1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:08,839 Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:10,000 an idea. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,519 Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through the. 4 00:00:13,519 --> 00:00:19,039 Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,160 tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because. 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:24,839 Speaker 3: I put my hand on a book and made a. 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,839 Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world. 8 00:00:29,079 --> 00:00:32,039 Speaker 4: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. 9 00:00:32,079 --> 00:00:34,719 Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way. 10 00:00:35,679 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the 11 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:52,759 Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 4: Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, has said 13 00:01:00,159 --> 00:01:02,280 empathy is a problem. 14 00:01:02,759 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: Oh no, is. 15 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 4: Empathy part of the woke lib agenda to somehow ruin 16 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,359 the world. I don't think so, and neither does Fish Stark, 17 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,560 who was the executive director of the American Humanist Association. 18 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,239 Fish joins me, now, hey, brother, how you doing? 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 3: Hey, Seth, good to be here, and thanks so much 20 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:21,799 for having me. 21 00:01:21,879 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 4: I got to do my due diligence and make you 22 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,359 answer the question that you've answered a squillion times. Your 23 00:01:27,359 --> 00:01:29,480 first name is Fish? What's that about? 24 00:01:30,079 --> 00:01:33,599 Speaker 3: Oh so, no, my parents did not name me that. 25 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 2: Most people in the movement know. 26 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 3: My dad Pete Stark, the first open atheist in Congress, but. 27 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: His name wasn't Pete either. 28 00:01:42,239 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 3: Actually, my name is Fortney Hellman Stark the third and 29 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,560 his name was Fortney Hellman Stark Junior. A name like 30 00:01:49,599 --> 00:01:53,359 Fortney Hillman Stark the third is a liability. In elementary school, 31 00:01:53,879 --> 00:01:56,000 I got beat up a lot in the first grade 32 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,480 for a lot of reasons. I was a you know, 33 00:01:58,519 --> 00:02:00,319 I was I was too good at school and too 34 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,159 bad at sports, and a little sort of emotional and 35 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,719 all of those things. And then having a name that 36 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,039 sounded like Courtney. In the early two thousands, the word 37 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,319 for that kid was gay, and I got beat up 38 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:13,479 a lot. 39 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 2: And so there was a point in first grade where 40 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:16,080 I was. 41 00:02:16,039 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 3: Like, well, I can't change a lot of the things 42 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,039 that are getting me beat up, but I can't change 43 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,240 my name. And so I took my initials, which were 44 00:02:24,319 --> 00:02:27,319 FHS Fortneyhillman Stark the third, and I was like, that 45 00:02:27,319 --> 00:02:29,639 looks a little bit like Fish. That is hip, that's cool, 46 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,360 that's edgy. I bet a kid named Fish doesn't get bullied, 47 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,280 which was wrong. But I took on the name and 48 00:02:37,319 --> 00:02:39,680 I lived into it and I was like it it 49 00:02:39,719 --> 00:02:41,639 felt like me, and so I've been everyone's called me 50 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:42,879 Fish since I was six years old. 51 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,439 Speaker 4: I think it sounds like royalty, and you say it 52 00:02:45,439 --> 00:02:48,039 that way, it almost sounds like money, like old money. 53 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,280 You know, if you're British, you could have played on 54 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,000 that for the rest of your LEA could have faked 55 00:02:52,039 --> 00:02:53,240 it at least I don't know. 56 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 3: So it's so interesting, right because like it sounds like 57 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,680 an aristocratic name. And I didn't know the real origin 58 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,919 of the name Fortny until I went to Germany this 59 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,439 last summer, where my great grandparents immigrated from two hundred 60 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,719 years ago. And these were like not rich immigrants, right, 61 00:03:08,759 --> 00:03:10,479 Like they came over and they like worked in a 62 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,199 sugar mil Milwaukee and you know, worked their way up. 63 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:18,879 And the name for everyone called my great great great grandfather, 64 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,159 who was on a very ironically named Christian Stark, they 65 00:03:23,199 --> 00:03:26,800 called him Forte, which is the German word for gate, 66 00:03:27,159 --> 00:03:29,840 because he lived next to the gate of the town. 67 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 4: So my name, Yes, everything's got a story, everything's got 68 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,560 a backstory. Fish. One more piece of you know, housekeeping. 69 00:03:40,199 --> 00:03:43,919 American humanist? Do you have to describe humanism for people? 70 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,080 Like it's not as bad as secular. When I try 71 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,280 to explain what secular is. But when you say atheists, 72 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,520 they kind of get it. When you say religious, they 73 00:03:51,599 --> 00:03:54,680 kind of get it. With humanist, how do you approach that. 74 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 3: Humanism is for anyone who believes that science tells us 75 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,080 what's real and that the tells us what's right. It 76 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,840 is for people who believe in the Golden Rule, but 77 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,280 not in God. So if you believe that truth and 78 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,479 power and morality don't come from some abstraction or some 79 00:04:11,639 --> 00:04:15,039 myth or some external source, but come from us, come 80 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,160 from democracy, come from the needs of our neighbors, then 81 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,319 you're a humanist. And so that's you know, we are 82 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,199 building a movement that we think reflects the values of 83 00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:27,160 forty six million Americans, and we are looking to bring 84 00:04:27,199 --> 00:04:30,040 them in and work for the kind of country we 85 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:30,800 believe we should have. 86 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 4: I mean, I think the religious nuns andnees represents one 87 00:04:36,519 --> 00:04:40,120 of the largest of not the largest, single demographic in 88 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,879 this country. Right, No, it's not represented that way in Congress. 89 00:04:42,959 --> 00:04:46,519 Roughly ninety percent of our elected officials say they're Christian 90 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,600 or believe in the Christian God, which I'm like, how 91 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:53,680 does a representative government represent an increasingly secular population. Right, 92 00:04:54,319 --> 00:04:54,720 I'll do. 93 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:55,319 Speaker 2: You one better. 94 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,399 Speaker 3: Thirty percent of Americans have decided religionism working for them, 95 00:04:59,439 --> 00:05:01,680 including fits fifty percent of young Americans. 96 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 2: This is the biggest. 97 00:05:03,199 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 3: Representation gap in the country. Thirty percent of Americans are 98 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,240 non religious. Zero point six percent of Congress is non religious. 99 00:05:10,639 --> 00:05:11,879 Speaker 2: It's it's insane. 100 00:05:11,959 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 3: And when my dad came out as the first open 101 00:05:14,759 --> 00:05:18,240 atheist in Congress, there was only one open non believer 102 00:05:18,319 --> 00:05:21,439 serving in any state legislature anywhere in the country. Now, 103 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,480 through RC four Center for Free Thought Equality, we've identified 104 00:05:25,519 --> 00:05:28,800 over seventy five state legislators. We now have three members 105 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,360 of Congress. We're working to build up, you know, not 106 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,759 just culturally like bringing young people in and new people 107 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,319 into humanism, but our political representation as well, because no 108 00:05:40,319 --> 00:05:41,800 one's ever going to fight for us if we don't 109 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:42,319 fight for us. 110 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. I know a great many American Christians fall under 111 00:05:45,519 --> 00:05:48,000 the Protestant label, but we got six of the nine 112 00:05:48,079 --> 00:05:52,079 Supreme Court justices are Catholic. I mean, someone explain that 113 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,560 to me. I mean, as far as we're representing us, 114 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,680 I know they represent supposedly in theory in a world 115 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,199 that is not insane. They represent the law, but they're 116 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,480 also supposed to be representatives of the United States. Are 117 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,560 six out of every nine of US catholic? I think not. 118 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,519 Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing. The religious right spent decades working 119 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,519 on a concerted strategy. They poured money into building up 120 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,120 leaders from the ground up, right electing them into school 121 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,000 board or getting them into lower judgeships and building them up. 122 00:06:24,319 --> 00:06:26,959 They worked to create their own culture and media. They 123 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,639 worked to build communities where they brought in people who 124 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,079 needed a sense of belonging and then educated them in 125 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,720 the kind of theology and politics they wanted them to have, 126 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,800 and they built power. Thirty years ago, people were laughing 127 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:41,920 at the kind of legal theories that the Christian right 128 00:06:41,959 --> 00:06:44,680 was advancing. Now they're the law of the land. If 129 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,839 they can play that game, then so the hell can we. 130 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,000 And that's the big bet we're making at the American 131 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,639 Humanist Association. We're doing exactly what the Christian right did 132 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,360 before the secular left. We're investing in content creators. Just 133 00:06:56,399 --> 00:06:59,639 like Charlie Kirk got started because he got ten thousand 134 00:06:59,639 --> 00:07:03,120 bucks from right wing Christian mega donors. We're spending ten 135 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,240 thousand bucks a month to try and find the Charlie 136 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,439 Kirk of the secular left we've got, you know, just 137 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,720 like the religious right worked to build up their bench 138 00:07:13,959 --> 00:07:17,279 of politicians and judges from the ground up. R C 139 00:07:17,519 --> 00:07:20,240 four the Center for Free Thought Equality has a pack 140 00:07:20,519 --> 00:07:25,000 and we support candidates in local and state and federal 141 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,639 elections through that pack, so that we're building a base 142 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,360 of atheist, humanist, agnostic candidates running for office. 143 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 2: We've got to look at what they. 144 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,199 Speaker 3: Did, and we've got to understand that actually we've got 145 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,240 to replicate that own sense of identity and community and 146 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,839 really rigorous political and legal work. 147 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,319 Speaker 4: I mean, do you get into the hurting cats thing 148 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,879 like me? I will say one thing about the religious right. 149 00:07:48,079 --> 00:07:50,720 They're well organized and well funded. I mean, you know, 150 00:07:50,759 --> 00:07:53,399 they've got the Peter Thiels, they've got the Heritage Foundation, 151 00:07:53,519 --> 00:07:56,360 they've got the echoes of the moral majority, you know, 152 00:07:56,399 --> 00:07:58,439 and then they've got the people who I think are 153 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,600 merely transactional, be the Bezos and the Elon Musks who 154 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,959 are doing it. I think for monetary reasons and for 155 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,199 power reasons. Is it harder on our end to try 156 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:09,560 to build these coalitions? 157 00:08:10,399 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: Not if we change our behavior? 158 00:08:12,399 --> 00:08:15,079 Speaker 3: Right, there are pro growth and anti growth behaviors for 159 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,759 every social movement. We've just sort of taken a hard 160 00:08:18,759 --> 00:08:23,240 stand against debate bro culture at the AAH. Nobody wants 161 00:08:23,279 --> 00:08:26,519 to come to another philosophical discussion and be told they 162 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,800 don't know the right terms for things, right, Like, if 163 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,279 we try to teach people new words for stuff, we 164 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:36,159 deserve what we get. That's why we are talking about 165 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,759 humanism in terms of things like empathy and science that 166 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:41,919 most Americans are like, oh, yeah, that is how I 167 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,720 make decisions, not by like reading the Bible when I 168 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,440 want to figure out, like what vegetable to buy, and 169 00:08:47,919 --> 00:08:52,039 so I think that there is Ultimately, we spend a 170 00:08:52,039 --> 00:08:55,440 lot of time in the movement doing things like pointing 171 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,159 and laughing at religious people for believing in a story 172 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,639 that made sense to them than saying, hey, here's the 173 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,240 story we believe in, here's the kind of community we 174 00:09:04,279 --> 00:09:06,200 want to build, and here's how we're going to make 175 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,799 people feel the same sense of welcome and belonging and 176 00:09:08,879 --> 00:09:13,519 excitement to believe in humanism that they get when. 177 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: They go to an evangelical church. 178 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 3: And so we we're seeing massive growth in terms of 179 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,559 I mean, the AAHA staff has grown seventy five percent 180 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,240 in the last year. Donations are up sixty six percent. 181 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,639 We have thirty percent more members in January alone compared 182 00:09:27,639 --> 00:09:30,519 to the prior year. We're running a playbook that is 183 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,960 working to build a humanist movement because now is the 184 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,240 time in America for it. People are pissed off about 185 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,159 what's going on, and they're searching for something to believe in. 186 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:39,440 That's what we need to give them. 187 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,759 Speaker 4: Yeah, we've cursed the darkness and awful lot, and I 188 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,000 do as well. I mean, we wake up every morning 189 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,559 damage report and there's always some fresh hell to look at. 190 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,679 But rather than wallow in despair, it does help. I 191 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,720 think it's good medicine to be proactive. I will align 192 00:09:53,799 --> 00:09:57,519 many of my religious you know, Christian friends, even a 193 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,279 few Muslim friends who are not in did it all in 194 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,240 a state church. They don't think that God would want 195 00:10:04,279 --> 00:10:06,919 a religious government. They think it's a personal faith. We 196 00:10:07,039 --> 00:10:09,639 disagree on theology, you know, we can talk about the 197 00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:11,759 Bible and the Koran and all that stuff, but in 198 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,440 terms of human beings, our values align. I also call 199 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,559 those people humanists. I don't know. I mean, I don't 200 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,360 get hung up on labels, but what do you think 201 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:20,960 of that fish. 202 00:10:21,759 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 3: I mean, my best friend is a social justice Catholic 203 00:10:25,399 --> 00:10:28,440 right better person than me pretty much any day of 204 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:28,759 the week. 205 00:10:28,799 --> 00:10:29,919 Speaker 2: I'm trying to be like him. 206 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 3: Whether he believes in God or not doesn't make the 207 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,840 world any better. And he was actually the person who 208 00:10:34,919 --> 00:10:37,080 encouraged me more than anyone else to take this job, 209 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,279 because he said, yeah, the sense of values and community 210 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,679 and grounding I get from Catholicism that pushes me to 211 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,519 be a better and more liberal person and fight for 212 00:10:47,519 --> 00:10:50,000 the rights of other people. We need that for people 213 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,240 who don't believe too, So go build it. 214 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:52,759 Speaker 2: You know. 215 00:10:52,879 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 3: I think ultimately there are lots of partnerships to be 216 00:10:55,559 --> 00:11:01,080 built between humanists and religious folks think that difference between 217 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,600 humanist and a religious person with good values is what 218 00:11:05,759 --> 00:11:08,879 was best articulated by John Dietrich, who founded the AJA 219 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,919 almost one hundred years ago. He said, the humanist is 220 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,639 not much interested in the God ideal, except for the 221 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,080 fact that it's a distraction from the work that we 222 00:11:18,159 --> 00:11:20,559 have to do right now. In other words, the humanist 223 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,279 answer to is there a God is less hard no, 224 00:11:23,639 --> 00:11:25,240 and more who cares? 225 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:25,879 Speaker 2: Right? 226 00:11:26,039 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 3: Like I always say, if God manifested himself in front 227 00:11:29,279 --> 00:11:32,279 of me right now and presented incontrovertible scientific proof of 228 00:11:32,279 --> 00:11:35,759 his existence. I would no longer be an atheist, but 229 00:11:36,159 --> 00:11:37,879 I would still say, what gives you the right to 230 00:11:37,879 --> 00:11:41,000 boss me around? I wouldn't accept his claims as true 231 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,240 just because he said them. I wouldn't let him tell 232 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,799 me to discriminate against other people. And that's what makes 233 00:11:45,879 --> 00:11:49,120 me a humanist, because our morality and our truth comes 234 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,559 from humanity, not from an external authority. 235 00:11:51,759 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 4: Okay, so let's talk about this empathy project. What's the 236 00:11:56,639 --> 00:11:59,360 war on empathy about? Like, you know, I know, we 237 00:11:59,399 --> 00:12:03,000 live in a culture of cruelty. It's bizarre fish to 238 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,000 watch these, you know, the same believers, the maga Christian 239 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:09,440 and they go in and you know, there Jesus said, 240 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,200 love one another, right, Blessed are the meek, turn the 241 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,720 other cheek, don't take vengeance, don't commit adultery, don't lust, 242 00:12:15,799 --> 00:12:18,159 don't bully, don't do all these things. And they have 243 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,799 then not only supported, but in many cases worship somebody 244 00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:25,120 who's who's a literal anti Christ. 245 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I mean, when you think about the war 246 00:12:29,279 --> 00:12:33,000 on empathy, ultimately, what you've got running our country right 247 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:37,159 now is an alliance of billionaires, bishops, and bigots. I 248 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,480 call it the axis of nonsense, right. And the one 249 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,440 thing they can agree on, because they don't agree on 250 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,000 h one b visas, and they don't agree on abortion, 251 00:12:46,039 --> 00:12:47,840 and they don't agree on all these other things, the 252 00:12:47,879 --> 00:12:50,679 one thing they can agree on is that we have 253 00:12:50,799 --> 00:12:54,840 to be more exclusive around who counts and who matters. 254 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:55,399 Speaker 2: Right. 255 00:12:55,759 --> 00:12:59,799 Speaker 3: The billionaires think that their wealth gives them the right 256 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,120 to rule, The bishops think their worship gives them the 257 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,679 right to rule, and the biggots think their whiteness gives 258 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,799 them the right to rule. And together what they can 259 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,679 agree on is we should be crueler to more people. 260 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,519 And so they're working together to advance this idea that 261 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,720 empathy is toxic, empathy is suicidal. You hear it from 262 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,519 Elon Musk, who's saying on Joe Rogan that empathy is 263 00:13:21,519 --> 00:13:24,360 the weakness of Western civilization, and you hear it from 264 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,360 right wing religious pastors who are saying things like empathy 265 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,159 is evil because it tells people to abandon God for 266 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:32,840 the sake of the neighbor. Which anything that is telling 267 00:13:32,879 --> 00:13:36,519 you to abandon your neighbor is not a theology worth believing. 268 00:13:36,519 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 4: In. 269 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:37,919 Speaker 2: Let's just say that upfront. 270 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,639 Speaker 3: The reason they're doing it. They're not doing it because 271 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,039 this is a popular position. Right eighty percent of Americans 272 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,639 think empathy is a core American value and that we 273 00:13:47,759 --> 00:13:50,720 need more of it. The reason they're doing it is 274 00:13:50,759 --> 00:13:54,559 because they can't get what they want. They cannot enact 275 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:59,360 their political project without cruelty towards other people. And what 276 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,039 they need to win is for us to turn away 277 00:14:02,039 --> 00:14:04,360 from each other, to look away when we see cruelty 278 00:14:04,399 --> 00:14:06,840 and say not my problem. And so they're trying to 279 00:14:06,879 --> 00:14:09,720 bully and shame us into saying not my problem. When 280 00:14:09,759 --> 00:14:12,279 they gun people down the streets in Minneapolis, when they 281 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,960 rip healthcare away from seniors and working families, when they 282 00:14:16,279 --> 00:14:18,960 kidnap five year olds off the street and shove them 283 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,200 into tention centers like Liam Ramos. Humans are naturally wired, 284 00:14:23,639 --> 00:14:28,919 evolutionarily wired to care about the survival of our fellow 285 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,399 humans because we recognize that if we look out for them, 286 00:14:33,679 --> 00:14:36,919 they'll look out for us. They're trying to repress that 287 00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:40,000 human instinct in us because it's the only way they 288 00:14:40,039 --> 00:14:44,320 can hoard more wealth and power for themselves. It's frankly 289 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,759 a stupid tactic because again, you look at America right now, 290 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,960 most reasonable people are saying, my god, empathy is toxic. No, 291 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:54,720 we don't have enough of it. We all ought to 292 00:14:54,759 --> 00:14:57,039 look out for each other more and treat each other better. 293 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,840 That's the problem. And this is good news for human 294 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,519 because again we don't have We don't believe morality comes 295 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:06,919 from stone tablets or voices in the sky, right We 296 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,600 believe morality comes from understanding the needs of our neighbors. 297 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,720 If science points the way to what is true, empathy 298 00:15:14,759 --> 00:15:16,960 points the way to what is good. We believed that 299 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,080 for centuries, and so it's a great opportunity for us 300 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,159 to say, hey, not only are they wrong, but if 301 00:15:23,159 --> 00:15:26,360 you want to believe in something that says, actually, empathy matters, 302 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,000 and it's how we understand what our obligations are. 303 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: Humanism might be for you. 304 00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 4: The perception of strength as I don't know, breaking things 305 00:15:35,279 --> 00:15:39,080 and smashing things and conquest. You know, the bullies of 306 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,919 the world. I mean, I guess they're strong in a 307 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,559 specific sense, but it's actually a much more noble strength. 308 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,039 I think it's a much more solid strength when you 309 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,759 are using your abilities to protect and to build. I mean, 310 00:15:51,799 --> 00:15:54,519 anybody can burn a house down, but to construct one 311 00:15:54,679 --> 00:15:58,399 that takes real strength, I think, and that's not really 312 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,039 the attitude at least into America from the top down. 313 00:16:02,159 --> 00:16:03,879 It just seems like I've got to go in and 314 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,320 wipe things out and remake it in my own image. 315 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,639 I mean, anybody can smash the window, but to actually 316 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,320 form and fabricate and place the glass that takes a 317 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:14,080 lot more care. 318 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,639 Speaker 3: Right, absolutely, Look, you know, ultimately we've seen this throughout 319 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:19,480 human history. 320 00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:19,919 Speaker 2: Right. 321 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,279 Speaker 3: There are people who try to rule through fear and repression, 322 00:16:23,559 --> 00:16:26,080 and they succeed maybe for a little while, they might 323 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,639 kick down some sand castles, but ultimately, the people who 324 00:16:29,679 --> 00:16:33,039 build things that last are the people who lead through respect, 325 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,039 the people who are able to bring people together and 326 00:16:36,159 --> 00:16:40,399 articulate positive values, not give people someone to hate. I mean, 327 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:45,159 that ultimately is why you know, we see the part 328 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,759 of why the right is so angry is that they've 329 00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:51,840 been sold this bill of goods. Right, the billionaires have 330 00:16:52,039 --> 00:16:55,759 stolen their wealth and they're working longer hours to afford 331 00:16:55,879 --> 00:16:58,159 less and provide less for their families. And then you've 332 00:16:58,159 --> 00:17:01,399 got hacks like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro who are like, oh, 333 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,679 you feel unsatisfied. You feel like you don't have control 334 00:17:03,679 --> 00:17:06,000 in your life. You know what, if you just hate 335 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,559 these people and see yourself as superior to them, then 336 00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:09,319 you can feel like. 337 00:17:09,279 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 2: A big shot. 338 00:17:10,039 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 3: And people are like, oh, well, that's because it's easy 339 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,000 to hate people, and so, you know, they try it 340 00:17:14,039 --> 00:17:16,640 for a little while, and like Heroin, it feels good 341 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,880 for a little bit, and then you realize it doesn't work, 342 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,640 and so they're just as disempowered and out of control 343 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,960 as they were before, and now they have fewer friends, 344 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,200 so now they're angrier. The truth is right, and I like, 345 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,400 I didn't come to this job as a professional humanist activist. 346 00:17:31,519 --> 00:17:34,839 I studied developmental psychology at Yale and Harvard, and I 347 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,079 spent time working in the mental health field, building programs 348 00:17:38,079 --> 00:17:41,480 that improved mental health for kids. What we know is 349 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,240 that real strength, real courage, real satisfaction in life comes 350 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,759 from knowing what you believe, acting in line with those beliefs, 351 00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:51,759 and helping other people and being part of a community. 352 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,640 And the right can't really give that to people, and 353 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,880 so we can if we're able to articulate that well 354 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,119 and meet that need that a lot of people are 355 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,279 feeling like, God, I'm looking for something and they're sure 356 00:18:05,279 --> 00:18:07,079 as hell not getting it from this administration. 357 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 4: Short break. More of my conversation with Fish Snark of 358 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:22,880 the American Humanist Association. Next March seventh, Tulsa, Oklahoma. The 359 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:27,640 event with myself, Forrest Valcai, and Got Sick Gibbon sold out, 360 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,599 totally sold out, three hundred seats gone. Thank you to 361 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,920 everybody who picked up tickets. I have been asked if 362 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,960 we're going to stream it. No we are not, but 363 00:18:37,839 --> 00:18:41,480 I am taking five cameras to record the event. The 364 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:45,559 plan is to eventually release all of it online. But 365 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,240 to those who managed to squeak in, so glad you're there. 366 00:18:49,279 --> 00:18:52,480 It's going to be an amazing time this Saturday. Also 367 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,960 on the conference calendar, big events that are happening, the 368 00:18:56,039 --> 00:19:00,559 We Can Reason event Calgary first weekend of May, Baja 369 00:19:00,759 --> 00:19:05,799 Con Sarnia, Ontario, third weekend of August, and Rocket City 370 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:12,480 Reason and Huntsville, Alabama. A Free Thought event in Alabama. 371 00:19:12,599 --> 00:19:15,519 I just love it. Details on all this and more 372 00:19:15,759 --> 00:19:22,759 at the Thinkingatheist dot com slash events. Talking here with 373 00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:26,279 Fish Stark, the executive director of the American Humanist Association. 374 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,720 We're talking about putting the kind back in humankind God. 375 00:19:30,759 --> 00:19:33,200 That sounds like a Hallmark movie, but I just had 376 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,200 to throw it out there. Right, I'm trying to stay 377 00:19:35,319 --> 00:19:39,640 on message. Tell me about this Empathy project, right, what 378 00:19:39,799 --> 00:19:42,559 are we talking about and how can we get involved? 379 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:43,720 Give me specifics. 380 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,039 Speaker 3: So the American Empathy Project is our initiative to respond 381 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,039 to the radical religious rights war on empathy. We are 382 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,440 giving out one hundred thousand dollars in grants to Americans 383 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,920 who want to help their neighbors. And on May second, 384 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,079 we're going to have over one hundred American Empathy the 385 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,880 projects across the country that anyone can join. It's our 386 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,519 way of saying to the religious right, hey, actually, empathy 387 00:20:08,599 --> 00:20:11,200 is a core American value. And it's also our way 388 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,759 of saying to the forty six million Americans who believe 389 00:20:13,799 --> 00:20:16,839 in the Golden Rule but not in God. Hey, humanism 390 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,039 is here fighting for you, and it's a community that 391 00:20:19,079 --> 00:20:21,559 you want to be a part of. So we've already 392 00:20:21,599 --> 00:20:24,880 received hundreds of applications for the American Empathy Project. I 393 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,359 hope we get hundreds more before the deadline on March thirteenth, 394 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,000 because ultimately, what we believe as humanist is the world 395 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:36,880 doesn't change because of Diosex Machina Right, like somebody in 396 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,039 the sky making a decision to make things better. It 397 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,480 changes when we take action to build the world we want. 398 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,599 And so yeah, we need to resist and rail against 399 00:20:46,759 --> 00:20:49,920 all of the authoritarianism that's going on right now. We 400 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,519 also need to show people what the world we want 401 00:20:52,559 --> 00:20:55,119 looks like. And I think it looks like a shared 402 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,359 world where we're all looking out for our neighbors. 403 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,279 Speaker 4: Well, let me jump in real fast fish. I mean, 404 00:20:59,319 --> 00:21:01,799 what are people applying for? You know, you've got to 405 00:21:02,079 --> 00:21:04,559 I'm going to put a link in the description box 406 00:21:04,599 --> 00:21:07,240 of the show. But if I apply, I'm applying for 407 00:21:07,319 --> 00:21:09,400 a grant fleshing out for me. 408 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: Yep. 409 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 3: If you apply and you're accepted, you'll get one thousand 410 00:21:13,039 --> 00:21:16,319 dollars grant to organize an American empathy project in your community. 411 00:21:16,519 --> 00:21:18,519 That could look like a food drive to help people 412 00:21:18,519 --> 00:21:21,519 who are struggling from this administration's cuts to snap. It 413 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,279 might be a drive for used clothing for LGBTQ centers 414 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,880 so that trans kids who are being bullied by this 415 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,960 administration can have access to gender affirming clothes. It might 416 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,799 look like a community park cleanup. It might look like 417 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,599 hosting a giant potluck so that neighbors can get to 418 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,319 know each other in this time of fear and disinformation. 419 00:21:39,839 --> 00:21:42,960 The only rules are that it has to be something 420 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,000 that anyone in your community can join, and it has 421 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,079 to help people who are being targeted and harmed by 422 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:50,000 this administration. 423 00:21:50,319 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 2: And so we're. 424 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 3: Hoping that, you know, humanist groups that are already doing 425 00:21:55,279 --> 00:21:57,920 service work will apply and that they'll get new members 426 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,240 because we'll be promoting these projects all over the country. 427 00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:02,799 And we also are seeing a lot of people who 428 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,079 have never done a service project before like this, but 429 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,480 are saying I'm tired of what's going on, I want 430 00:22:07,519 --> 00:22:09,559 to do something about it. And we're so excited to 431 00:22:09,559 --> 00:22:14,079 help those people become leaders in their communities create something meaningful. 432 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:15,799 Hopefully they'll start humanist groups too. 433 00:22:16,319 --> 00:22:19,279 Speaker 4: So the deadline to apply is in March. 434 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 3: What was the date, March thirteenth, And if you want 435 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,319 to apply, go to Americanempathy Project dot org and you 436 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,119 put in your email and we'll send you the grant application. 437 00:22:29,759 --> 00:22:32,759 Speaker 4: And then those decisions or the announcement is made or 438 00:22:32,799 --> 00:22:34,960 the actual project date is in May. 439 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, so we'll get back to people as quickly as 440 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,440 we can certainly before the end of March if you're selected. 441 00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:42,880 Even if you're not selected, if you want to run 442 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,200 a project without the grant, we'll still put it on 443 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,480 our big map of projects and promote it to people 444 00:22:47,519 --> 00:22:49,839 across the country so that people in your neighborhood can 445 00:22:49,839 --> 00:22:52,319 find it and sign up. And then on May second, 446 00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:56,559 we're hosting this groundswell of projects across the country. Americans 447 00:22:56,559 --> 00:22:59,680 helping their neighbors, which is ultimately what humanism believes in. 448 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 4: I'm guessing you guys are throwing out the info to 449 00:23:02,319 --> 00:23:05,920 media to make sure that what we're doing is being seen. 450 00:23:06,319 --> 00:23:09,119 I mean, I want it seen. Does that make any sense? 451 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,000 Like being in our communities is. It's really important and 452 00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:13,960 people are going to be talking, but it sure would 453 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,599 be nice to get some attention on the major platforms. 454 00:23:17,599 --> 00:23:19,839 I don't know, are you guys pursuing that at all? 455 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,279 Speaker 2: We are, But here's the thing. 456 00:23:21,519 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 3: You know, corporate owned media is not talking about these 457 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,559 issues because they're afraid of what the administration is going 458 00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:29,000 to do to them. You've seen the ways in which 459 00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:31,920 CBS and even ABC and Disney have backed down in 460 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,680 response to pressure from the FCC. We have gotten hundreds 461 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,799 of applications from people all across the country without any 462 00:23:38,839 --> 00:23:42,279 corporate media coverage, just by working with influencers like Monty 463 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,160 Mater and you know, Amanda's mild Takes, Andrew McCoy and 464 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,599 you Seth and Andrew Sidell, you know, people who are 465 00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:51,799 putting this out to their community, and people are saying, 466 00:23:51,839 --> 00:23:53,960 holy cow, I didn't know there was something like this. 467 00:23:54,319 --> 00:23:55,559 Speaker 2: I want to sign up and do it. 468 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 3: I would love for there to be a media ground 469 00:23:58,799 --> 00:24:01,680 swell to say, hey, port empathy. What I'm hoping is 470 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,480 that when people see folks taking action all across the 471 00:24:04,519 --> 00:24:07,480 country on May second, it's going to be impossible to ignore. 472 00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:09,720 Our goal is to have this be bigger than the 473 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,519 reason rally the most people mobilized by the secular community 474 00:24:13,559 --> 00:24:15,720 on any day in American history to take action. 475 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 4: I guess what I'm saying is, I mean, you're absolutely right. 476 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,759 We can't rely on CBS, Berry, weisse X. You know, 477 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:26,799 even I think CNN is now in the bubble and compromised, etc. Etc. 478 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,799 Most of the major media platforms in this country owned 479 00:24:29,839 --> 00:24:34,240 by six corporations but with no kings. I mean you 480 00:24:34,279 --> 00:24:37,119 couldn't ignore it, right, I mean they had to cover it. 481 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,319 Holy shit, look at seven million people, the biggest single 482 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,000 march in the history of this country. I'm hoping that 483 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,000 the American Empathy Project is much the same. It's one 484 00:24:46,039 --> 00:24:47,640 of those things where even the people who want to 485 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,519 sweep it under the rug have to say only shit. 486 00:24:49,599 --> 00:24:51,160 I guess it's news, right. 487 00:24:51,559 --> 00:24:54,599 Speaker 3: That's the goal, and our team is working as hard 488 00:24:54,599 --> 00:24:57,000 as we can to make it impossible to ignore. But 489 00:24:57,079 --> 00:24:59,559 the only way it's going to be impossible to ignore 490 00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:03,279 Americans across the country standing up for empathy and helping 491 00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:05,599 their neighbors in the face of cruelty is if the 492 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,400 people listening right now sign up, send in an application, 493 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,000 commit to attending an event themselves, and make sure we 494 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,279 have a massive body count, or donate to support these projects. Ultimately, 495 00:25:16,519 --> 00:25:17,920 it's going to take all of us pitching in. 496 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,079 Speaker 4: Okay, I want to come back. You have a degree 497 00:25:21,079 --> 00:25:26,680 in background in psychology, right, yeah, So I mean, let's 498 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,480 just talk you and me, Because I wake up in 499 00:25:29,519 --> 00:25:34,920 the morning and I struggle, people suck, and everything's on fire, 500 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,640 and then I'm just sad and angry all day and 501 00:25:40,279 --> 00:25:42,839 there are times when I've just given up on people. 502 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,240 You know what I'm saying, and I know logically there 503 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,559 are tens and tens of millions of people who are good, 504 00:25:47,599 --> 00:25:51,440 who are resisting, who are representing humanist secular values, who 505 00:25:51,519 --> 00:25:55,279 want goodness to prevail. I know that up here, but 506 00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,799 down in my chest and my gut, I just despair 507 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,319 for the species. Bring the killer asteroid. Let's start again 508 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,599 with the bees and let life try again. Do you 509 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,480 ever go there? And how do you get past it? 510 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,200 I mean, give me the psychology of this fish. 511 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,799 Speaker 3: So the cool thing about humanism is that some of 512 00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:19,119 the best psychologists, the people who actually made psychology work 513 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,720 for us, were humanists. I think about you know, Karl 514 00:26:22,839 --> 00:26:25,160 Rogers is not in the name a lot of people know, 515 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:26,960 but he was the guy who invented the field of 516 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,880 client centered psychology. If you have a good therapist, thank 517 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,640 Karl Rogers. And he was a humanist. And when he 518 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,920 came on the scene, psychology was this, you know, was 519 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,079 defined by Freud. It was this idea that people are 520 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,440 inherently broken and we got to fix them. And Roger's 521 00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:44,799 big innovation was he was like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, 522 00:26:44,839 --> 00:26:49,000 people don't grow from shame. Everyone has the ability to 523 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,960 change and grow for the better. But that's only going 524 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,519 to happen if they have a picture in their mind 525 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,119 of an ideal good self that they want to be, 526 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,880 and they've got someone who cares about them, and it's 527 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,400 challenging them to work towards that picture of their best self. 528 00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:06,839 That's what he turned therapy into and it became better 529 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:07,200 for a. 530 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:07,799 Speaker 2: Lot of people. 531 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 3: And so, you know, I get in that place, right, 532 00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:13,680 I get riled up, I get angry. I get so 533 00:27:13,759 --> 00:27:17,279 frustrated people I see making harmful decisions every day and 534 00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:19,519 then I'm like, okay, but that's me sitting in my feelings. 535 00:27:20,039 --> 00:27:23,200 How do people really change? And the truth is, people 536 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,319 really change when we believe it is possible for them 537 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,920 to be a better person, and we challenge them and 538 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,200 we give them opportunities to work towards that positive vision 539 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,119 of who they could be. And so that's what the 540 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,960 American Empathy Project is. We're calling America to be its 541 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,000 best self and that's what drives real change in people. 542 00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:44,079 Speaker 4: That sounds so good, but I really want to shame them. 543 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,960 I mean, do you just think I mean? And I 544 00:27:47,039 --> 00:27:49,839 hate that I've come to this point. I'm the mister 545 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,400 Rogers of the movement. Fish you know I'm saying I'm 546 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,599 a teddy bear, and yet this scar tissue is thick, 547 00:27:56,079 --> 00:27:58,319 but I really do want to hold on to that, 548 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,960 like everybody can be reached, or almost everybody can be 549 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,319 reached fish well. 550 00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:07,759 Speaker 3: And here's the difference between humanism and high control religion, right, 551 00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:12,799 High control religion introduced this idea, socialize, this idea, planted 552 00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:15,599 it deep in our little monkey brains that the way 553 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,480 to make people better is by shaming them, is by 554 00:28:19,519 --> 00:28:22,279 suppressing their humanity, is by looking at people through a 555 00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:26,839 deficit mindset, seeing them as inherently wicked, original sinners, people 556 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,799 to be controlled. And the idea of humanism is that actually, 557 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,079 if we see people as reservoirs of potential, if we 558 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,440 see people's humanity is something to be unleashed, not suppressed. 559 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,440 If we believe not that everybody is good, but that 560 00:28:41,519 --> 00:28:44,880 people can be good, and that society should be about 561 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,799 unlocking people's potential to do good things, not sorting them 562 00:28:48,799 --> 00:28:51,359 into hierarchies and telling them what they can and can't do. 563 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,519 That's how we're going to get a better world. And 564 00:28:53,559 --> 00:28:56,200 so that's why you have humanists, not just Carl Rogers, right, 565 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,119 but the founder of Planned parenthood, the co founder of 566 00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:02,480 Apple Computers, the guy who invented the polio vaccine. The 567 00:29:02,599 --> 00:29:06,000 people who have created the inventions and led the social 568 00:29:06,039 --> 00:29:09,640 movements that gave us more freedom to become our best 569 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,599 selves were humanists. Because that's what we believe. 570 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 4: Your enthusiasm, it's contagious. It is contagious. I feel a 571 00:29:18,559 --> 00:29:21,359 tinge of optimism, of hope actually is the better word. 572 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,599 I don't know if it's optimism, but you know, maybe 573 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:25,480 maybe what are we going to do? Give up and 574 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,200 go home? Fish right? I mean, we're just going to 575 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,119 sit in the corner and let him have it. We're 576 00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:31,039 going to let him take every into the playing field. 577 00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:33,359 Hell no, I'm going to go down fighting and I don't. 578 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,599 I'm hoping we don't go down. You know, if we 579 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,440 have mid terms, I am thinking, well, you know, we're 580 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,880 seeing a potential blue wave and Texas, of all places, 581 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,960 you know, can Texas turn blue. We are seeing a 582 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,160 lot of the Republican congressmen and senators who were deciding 583 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,279 not to even run. Part of me is thinking that's 584 00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:53,759 strategic because they see the writing on the wall. We 585 00:29:53,839 --> 00:29:58,000 are seeing a rise and secular politicians, humanist politicians and 586 00:29:58,079 --> 00:30:00,559 of course, the groundswell of people on the I think 587 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:03,880 the next note Kings is coming up late March, and 588 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,519 if we saw seven million last October, I think it's 589 00:30:06,519 --> 00:30:09,400 going to be ten fifteen. I think after the ice 590 00:30:09,519 --> 00:30:14,880 murders in Minneapolis, etc. Et cetera, Venezuela green wanting to 591 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,119 annex Greenland, and then the Epstein files, I really feel 592 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,880 like we are at this explosive moment where history is 593 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,039 going to be made. And those do give me hope, 594 00:30:24,079 --> 00:30:26,720 and so does the American Empathy Project. I think it's 595 00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:30,039 a wonderful idea. Give me one last slug for it 596 00:30:30,279 --> 00:30:33,240 for anybody who wants to participate or spread the word. 597 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,599 Speaker 3: It was Harvey Milk, a humanistic Jew, who said, you've 598 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,480 got to give them hope, and that's what we're doing. 599 00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:42,359 The American Empathy Project is our bet on the idea 600 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,440 that empathy is a core American value and we need 601 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,480 more of it, not less. So we're giving out one 602 00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:50,480 hundred thousand dollars in grants to Americans who want to 603 00:30:50,559 --> 00:30:53,240 run projects that help their neighbors. On May second, if 604 00:30:53,279 --> 00:30:56,359 you apply at Americanempathy Project dot org, we can give 605 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,599 you one thousand dollars and mobilize people in your community 606 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:03,599 to help you make a difference, whether it's helping seniors, 607 00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:07,319 helping young people, helping folks in need, helping. 608 00:31:07,039 --> 00:31:08,039 Speaker 2: Clean up the community. 609 00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:11,079 Speaker 3: We're here to show what humanism is all about, which 610 00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:13,960 is we take action. We don't wait for somebody to 611 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:14,720 solve it for us. 612 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 4: You're a great communicator. All I got to do is 613 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,279 tee you up and I sit back and just watch 614 00:31:19,319 --> 00:31:21,839 the magic Fish. I mean, you just psyched, almost like 615 00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:25,000 you've done this before a few times. I'm just saying, 616 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,480 so the aha. I've been a big fan for a 617 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,160 very very long time, and I'm excited for you and 618 00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:36,240 the project. What a great proactive way to try to 619 00:31:36,279 --> 00:31:39,160 return us to sanity in this country, to restore our 620 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,640 humanity in this country. And I will link that in 621 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,759 the description box. Fish Stark, thank you so much for 622 00:31:44,839 --> 00:31:45,440 talking to me. 623 00:31:46,079 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me Seth and hey, what can 624 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:48,640 I say? 625 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,079 Speaker 3: I learn about good communication from the best, and I'm 626 00:31:51,119 --> 00:31:53,839 so glad we've got you out there, Taz speaking for 627 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,039 our movement, You're very kind. 628 00:31:55,039 --> 00:31:55,559 Speaker 4: Thanks brother. 629 00:31:55,799 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: Follow Thanking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a complete 630 00:31:59,799 --> 00:32:03,000 our type of podcasts and videos. Products like mugs and 631 00:32:03,039 --> 00:32:06,680 T shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo. Links to atheist 632 00:32:06,759 --> 00:32:10,440 pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events 633 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:17,640 and conventions. 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