Speaker 1: Tay my osiy like you just let me in my way.
Speaker 2: Welcome world to Blaze listeners and now watchers. As promised,
Speaker 2: I am doing video episodes, and as I stated previously,
Speaker 2: for those who do listen to my audio only episodes,
Speaker 2: I am primarily focusing on guest episodes and where those
Speaker 2: will be video because I just believe it's better to
Speaker 2: be able to see people's reactions for better context. You
Speaker 2: can see people's faces, et cetera. Welcome to Episode eighty
Speaker 2: and on today's episode, I have guest Evan Longen. Evan
Speaker 2: Longen is a psychologist of forty five years. He used
Speaker 2: to have his private practice. He also taught psycho therapy
Speaker 2: and he's a published author. He wrote the book The
Speaker 2: Root of Evil, and in that book he discusses how
Speaker 2: it is possible that evil can creep into society without
Speaker 2: us even knowing it. And of course this discussion definitely
Speaker 2: goes in the direction of Trump. We discuss Trump as
Speaker 2: many consider him to be evil or hitler or a dictator,
Speaker 2: and so that discussion has had But then we shift
Speaker 2: from domestic politics and talk about conflicts abroad. We talk
Speaker 2: about Israel, Gaza, and of course we discuss Russia and Ukraine.
Speaker 2: I really do hope you enjoy this episode. Evan's a
Speaker 2: very intelligent person, and this is a great episode to
Speaker 2: watch because in this episode you see that two people
Speaker 2: that don't necessarily agree. I'm not a democrat of the
Speaker 2: left and Devan is definitely not of the right, but
Speaker 2: we were still able to come together, have a discussion
Speaker 2: and even offer solutions that work, I mean, just makes
Speaker 2: sense for everybody, for humans living on the planet in
Speaker 2: a way that we can coexist in respec back to
Speaker 2: each other. So, without further ado, here is Evan Longan.
Speaker 2: So thank you for taking the time and coming onto
Speaker 2: the show. And as we just discussed earlier before I
Speaker 2: press record appropriate, giving what's going on in California, before
Speaker 2: we move on, I want to go ahead, and I
Speaker 2: mean the background that I see here on you had
Speaker 2: You were a psychologists before the private practice. Is this true? Yes? Okay?
Speaker 2: And you taught psychotherapy for over forty five years or
Speaker 2: so is that correct?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Okay, awesome? And then you became an author that book
Speaker 2: The Root of Evil? And was that released in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty two or twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty At the end of twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2: So right on that cusp of transitioning into twenty three. Yes,
Speaker 2: and you're known for that. You sold a few copies
Speaker 2: for sure, and you do discuss it and the subjects
Speaker 2: in here. Now, I'm a politics and geopolitics show, but
Speaker 2: I do like to venture onto other areas.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That being said, I think a lot of what you
Speaker 2: wrote in what you study is very appropriate to what's
Speaker 2: going on today. I did want to ask you, though,
Speaker 2: before we dive into that. Excuse me while I turn
Speaker 2: this up, that that you mentioned something I'm reading here,
Speaker 2: you your bio about how psychotherapy I believe, if I'm
Speaker 2: getting this correct, can fail society or it can lead Yes, okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, That's how I got interested in this whole
Speaker 1: idea of the breakdown of institutions and the breakdown of
Speaker 1: the body politic because in my own field we failed
Speaker 1: people frequently.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: I originally was a fellow at the Nathan Ackerman Family Institute,
Speaker 1: where I studied post doc and family therapy, and one
Speaker 1: of the things we noted back then was that the
Speaker 1: person who's the identified patient may in fact be the
Speaker 1: person who is most likely to bring new perspective to
Speaker 1: the family, and over and over again in my career,
Speaker 1: I was given very difficult cases that were not responding
Speaker 1: to treatment, and they found that they weren't responding to
Speaker 1: treatment because they were treating the wrong person. That the
Speaker 1: person that was the hospitalized or identified patient was not
Speaker 1: the problem. And I have a case that I talk
Speaker 1: about in my book that's the simplest one to understand.
Speaker 1: I get a call from a mother who tells me
Speaker 1: that her doctor, her pediatrician, had referred her family to
Speaker 1: me that her son had just been excluded from school
Speaker 1: after he went back to school and knocked out all
Speaker 1: the windows on the first floor of the school. This
Speaker 1: is an eight year old boy. So I said to
Speaker 1: the mother, well, okay, I'm more than happy to see you.
Speaker 1: I want to see you tomorrow with your whole family
Speaker 1: and with the boy and we'll all talk about what's
Speaker 1: going on. And the first thing she says to me, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you don't get it. My son is the problem. We
Speaker 1: don't need to come in. And I said, ah, well,
Speaker 1: you have to humor me, because this is how I work.
Speaker 1: I like to see a family together, get a feel
Speaker 1: for what the dynamics are that are going on in
Speaker 1: the family, and if you want to bring your son in,
Speaker 1: I'm more than happy to see you. She said, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not coming in. I said, well, listen, then go
Speaker 1: back to your pediatrician and get a referral to someone else.
Speaker 1: She said, well, the doctor said you're the best around.
Speaker 1: I said, well, thank you, So if you want my help,
Speaker 1: come in. So the next day she arrives her husband
Speaker 1: and herself and her son, but she didn't bring her daughter.
Speaker 1: And I said to her, where's your daughter? And she said,
Speaker 1: my daughter's not a problem. My son's the problem, and
Speaker 1: you've got to fix him. Well you see where this
Speaker 1: is going obviously, absolutely yea. So they all come into
Speaker 1: the office, the three of them, and I say to
Speaker 1: this son, would you do me a favor, Take your
Speaker 1: chair and bring it up next to me. I want
Speaker 1: you to be my assistant therapist. And he goes really,
Speaker 1: and I said, yeah, I'd like you to help me.
Speaker 1: And the mother goes, when is this What are you doing?
Speaker 1: You're rewarding him for being a bad kid. I said, no,
Speaker 1: I'm getting him to participate and to feel safe and
Speaker 1: to join me in exploring what's going on in the family. Well,
Speaker 1: to make a long story short. Ultimately she's about to
Speaker 1: leave when the father says, I can't take it anymore.
Speaker 1: My wife was out cold on the floor when he
Speaker 1: came home from school. She's drunk, she's out of control,
Speaker 1: and he, in his own way, went looking for help.
Speaker 1: I said, Wow, that's really impressive. Dead. So I've seen
Speaker 1: so much of that. I've seen where it's so easy
Speaker 1: to look at a situation and blame that person, and
Speaker 1: so often if that kid had been treated in a
Speaker 1: more traditional setting, he would have been in therapy forever
Speaker 1: with no progress.
Speaker 2: Well because the mother would to mask her own actions
Speaker 2: and her own behavior. Yes, it's effective family units.
Speaker 1: So those are the kinds of situations that's as blatant
Speaker 1: one as I can can share. One of the we
Speaker 1: worked with a team. We would have a team of
Speaker 1: people who sat in the room with me, and the
Speaker 1: family would sit with other members of my team being interviewed,
Speaker 1: and then the family would we would talk amongst ourselves
Speaker 1: about the things we heard. In this one instance, a
Speaker 1: young man who had been in McLean's Hospitals, a famous
Speaker 1: say chiatric facility, and had been removed because he wasn't
Speaker 1: making progress, sat with us on our team, and the
Speaker 1: mother and the father and the sister were talking on
Speaker 1: the other side of the room, and after they finished talking,
Speaker 1: he looked at us and he said, holy cow, is
Speaker 1: it possible that I did the things I did because
Speaker 1: I knew my mother was so depressed and I needed
Speaker 1: to do it to help the family? Is that? And
Speaker 1: this came spontaneously from this twelve year old boy. So again,
Speaker 1: over and over and over, I have been called into
Speaker 1: difficult situations that don't get better because that's treating the
Speaker 1: wrong situation, the wrong problem, right, That's how I got
Speaker 1: into this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's common in the medical industry in general. I mean, yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's unfortunate. So with that that being said, is that
Speaker 2: that is how why you got into doing what you're
Speaker 2: doing and why you chose to get on the path
Speaker 2: of researching. And in your book you do give you
Speaker 2: your opinions on how evil can easily sneak into society.
Speaker 2: Now does this tie into that? Do you think?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Again, what I started to see in situations in
Speaker 1: the families that work with. And by the way, I
Speaker 1: also back back around nineteen twenty ten that era. For
Speaker 1: five years I was in the Middle East, working with
Speaker 1: Palestinian and Israeli children, bringing them together to talk with
Speaker 1: each other and to learn about each other and to collaborate.
Speaker 1: So my experience went from being a psychotherapist to working
Speaker 1: in issues in the community. But what I saw over
Speaker 1: and over again was one binary thinking us versus them
Speaker 1: in the case of the Middle East, Israelis versus Palestinians.
Speaker 1: In today's California, the weight majority versus minority immigrants, they're
Speaker 1: seen as different, they're seen as other. The second thing
Speaker 1: is power over behavior, where the psychiatrist or the teacher
Speaker 1: or the politician uses power to control situations that should
Speaker 1: come about in a more collaborative discussion between people. The
Speaker 1: third piece is the control of information. Today, today a
Speaker 1: blatant thing happened. I don't know if you saw. Senator
Speaker 1: Padilla was tackled when he was trying to ask questions
Speaker 1: of the Secretary of Homeland Security.
Speaker 2: I did not see that today. Yet he was.
Speaker 1: Thrown to the ground, he was handcuffed, And the story
Speaker 1: that MAGA is putting out is that they didn't know
Speaker 1: who he was, he didn't identify himself. Well, you can
Speaker 1: watch the TV reporting of this, so you can see
Speaker 1: he's going I'm Senator Padilla, I mean said and throwing
Speaker 1: him to the ground. So again there's a distortion of information.
Speaker 1: Information is corrupted, we don't get the truth. And the
Speaker 1: final the final piece that I found was people come
Speaker 1: up with simplistic solutions to complex problems.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they do.
Speaker 1: So instead of they're saying, Okay, this is going to
Speaker 1: require some thought. We're going to have to work together.
Speaker 1: Both sides have to come together and collaborate to come
Speaker 1: up with a solution. Unfortunately, in all the instances that
Speaker 1: I put in my book of Evil, in the community,
Speaker 1: in the college, in psychotherapy, we come up with simplistic solutions.
Speaker 1: This kid broke the windows. He needs to be the patient.
Speaker 1: It's it's too often a simplistic approach to something that
Speaker 1: requires more in depth discussion and collaboration.
Speaker 2: Well, because punishment's not treating the cause right or the
Speaker 2: root of why they behave that way right. So that
Speaker 2: all being said, it's in society, I mean, we'll just
Speaker 2: dive into because we're already talking about things that are
Speaker 2: going on. Obviously, Trump administration repolarizing figure. Some people approve,
Speaker 2: some people don't, but regardless of some people see him
Speaker 2: as a dictator, fascist, evil person. Fine, so let's talk
Speaker 2: about how or if you can explain rather because you're
Speaker 2: the expert in this is from your viewpoint, How does
Speaker 2: evil creep in? How does it get accepted to society?
Speaker 2: And how do these cults get formed where people are
Speaker 2: just willingly, just blindly following the leader. How does this happen?
Speaker 1: How does it happen? I just got back from Europe.
Speaker 1: I was in Germany in Austria, and I was struck
Speaker 1: by what a wonderful culture, historic culture, the German Austrian
Speaker 1: culture has been over generations. How was it possible that
Speaker 1: people joined with Adolf Hitler in this horrendous movement that
Speaker 1: was so inhuman, so evil, so dastardly. I don't know
Speaker 1: whether the were to you.
Speaker 2: That is the prime example of evil sneaking in and
Speaker 2: become acceptable, right.
Speaker 1: And being accepted. My senses, you need people to be frightened,
Speaker 1: You need people to feel like they're not being heard.
Speaker 1: I didn't spend enough time in my book talking about that.
Speaker 1: The reason why Hitler took hold is the people of
Speaker 1: Germany felt like they were mistreated after World War One.
Speaker 1: They were poor, they were hungry, they wanted more opportunity,
Speaker 1: and Hitler was giving them a sense of the power,
Speaker 1: sense of being heard. Trump is doing exactly the same thing.
Speaker 1: Trump listened to people who were feeling left out, feeling
Speaker 1: like to peopleeople who felt like they weren't given the
Speaker 1: same opportunities as others. Unfortunately, those people are not being
Speaker 1: represented by Trump. He is not making it any easier
Speaker 1: for them to buy eggs, He's not making it any
Speaker 1: easier for them to have access. In fact, his whole
Speaker 1: political economic strategy is he's going to give more money
Speaker 1: to the rich and then ultimately that's going to seep
Speaker 1: down to the poor people. So again they they they
Speaker 1: think he's he is speaking to their hurt and their
Speaker 1: anger and their receptive to it. That's how it happens,
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: I mean, he can't argue against that. That is that
Speaker 2: is usually how most any leader who gets elected, though
Speaker 2: it comes into power regardless. I mean, you're you're trying
Speaker 2: to play it to people's sympathies, right, That's usually what But.
Speaker 1: The problem the problem with with Trump, with Hitler, with
Speaker 1: other meglomaniacs is that they really uh don't offer solutions
Speaker 1: that will make the situation any better. They offer false
Speaker 1: solutions that ultimately create more problems.
Speaker 2: It's interesting do you think some of some of because
Speaker 2: he is an interesting person to talk about. I mean,
Speaker 2: he's never never had a president like this ever, and
Speaker 2: it's it. I I will I will say that I
Speaker 2: don't agree with how he acts in public, Like he's
Speaker 2: not presidential, you know, and and the and the thing
Speaker 2: that that he does, Like why are we airing out
Speaker 2: grievances on social media? For example, that whole spat between
Speaker 2: him and Elon Musk and whoever wants to speak up
Speaker 2: against him, Like that's, let's kind of closed door conversation, right,
Speaker 2: you work that out, You keep that, you keep that
Speaker 2: out of the public. In my opinion, do you feel
Speaker 2: Trump though, at times where he does have success, do
Speaker 2: you think it's intentional or just accidental? Like things just
Speaker 2: kind of half hal hazardly come together and he just
Speaker 2: claims the win.
Speaker 1: Look, Unfortunately, in each of these situations that I think
Speaker 1: evil comes about, the person is not open to collaboration.
Speaker 1: The person is not open to being in a discussion
Speaker 1: that brings together multiple ideas and then work out as
Speaker 1: best a solution as you can. Trump, unfortunately, besides being
Speaker 1: vulgar and crass, doesn't respect. He speaks badly about anybody
Speaker 1: who disagrees with him. He calls them communist, he calls
Speaker 1: them we he calls them all kinds of names. But
Speaker 1: he doesn't say, Okay, I want to talk with them,
Speaker 1: let's sit down and talk about what's the best way
Speaker 1: to go forward. And that was my sense when I
Speaker 1: was in Middle East. Those people never understood that both
Speaker 1: sides had reasonable claims to their position.
Speaker 2: Okay, it wasn't that.
Speaker 1: The Israelis were correct or that the Palestinians were correct.
Speaker 1: They both had legitimate claims that needed to be listened to,
Speaker 1: and unfortunately the powers that be continue to vilify the other.
Speaker 2: Side right right, Well that's not uncommon though. You know,
Speaker 2: each side things they're right, each side things that they're owed,
Speaker 2: whatever it is they believe is old to them. That
Speaker 2: situation like that, that's that goes back a very long ways,
Speaker 2: it really does. I don't I don't know if we're
Speaker 2: ever going to come to a solution on as far
Speaker 2: as that goes, I would hope. So, I mean, I
Speaker 2: don't think that the Palestinian people themselves need to be
Speaker 2: caught in the middle between what's allegedly happening between Hamas
Speaker 2: and you know, Israel. But it's it's just it's just
Speaker 2: sad that I think that those people have to go
Speaker 2: through this and they're they're the ones being stuck in
Speaker 2: the middle between the two fighting, and they're being used,
Speaker 2: you know, they're being used not just as shields but
Speaker 2: absolutely both they are.
Speaker 1: Again, that's the problem. The problem is that's to me,
Speaker 1: has all the makings of evil. Us versus them, power
Speaker 1: over behavior. I'm stronger than you, so.
Speaker 2: I'll fuck you up, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Simplistic solutions out below the hell out of Gaza and
Speaker 1: the Hamas.
Speaker 2: Will disappear, right, which is not the right place not
Speaker 2: tell the.
Speaker 1: Truth about the political realities that are governing why these
Speaker 1: people are behaving this way, the powers are behaving this way.
Speaker 1: Nettan Yahoo has all kinds of political agenda that have
Speaker 1: nothing to do with Hamas, and yet that will be
Speaker 1: his his calling card. I'm going to save israelis from Hamas.
Speaker 2: So what do you think So what is his actual
Speaker 2: political okay, example of his political agenda outside of He's
Speaker 2: going to save Israel from Hamas? What what do you
Speaker 2: think it is he wants to achieve?
Speaker 1: He wants to maintain power.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, right, he.
Speaker 1: Is in cahoots with the ultra Orthodox and he needs
Speaker 1: their support. He has been much like Trump, he has
Speaker 1: been indicted on a number of crimes that he does
Speaker 1: not want to sit before the court. In fact, he's
Speaker 1: trying to change the nature of the court. Right, So
Speaker 1: those other agenda are part of what are driving him
Speaker 1: to do what he does.
Speaker 2: Okay, And so how do you feel about the sudden
Speaker 2: thinning out or pulling out of you know, our embassies
Speaker 2: in the Middle East? Right now?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 2: Is it? Basically you think the US or Trump saying, Hey,
Speaker 2: I had nothing to do with this. Now, who's doing
Speaker 2: whatever he's going to do. We can't stop them, we
Speaker 2: can't control them. He's not listening. The reports are there
Speaker 2: is a verge of well, they're on the verge of
Speaker 2: attacking Iran for example, Yes, which is what the hot
Speaker 2: topic is, which is a bad thing. Regardless, Yes, what
Speaker 2: do you think the move was there?
Speaker 1: Then?
Speaker 2: As far as Trump administrations concerned, Trump.
Speaker 1: Thought he had an easy solution to the situation in
Speaker 1: the Middle East. He thought he had an easy solution
Speaker 1: to the Russian Ukraine war. Right, Neither one of those
Speaker 1: things are turning out to be easy solutions and require
Speaker 1: a lot more in depth analysis and discussion than he understood.
Speaker 1: Now he sees that Netta Yahoo is as crazy as
Speaker 1: he is, and that Neta Yahoo can't be dealt with
Speaker 1: in a way that he anticipated Netta Yahoo would be.
Speaker 1: And it scares him to think that all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: the Middle East is going to blow up into a
Speaker 1: major conflagration.
Speaker 2: I mean, they were always in the verge since the
Speaker 2: beginning of time, it seems as well. So let's talk
Speaker 2: about that Ukraine piece then, So does the world really
Speaker 2: seem you know, both the world blames the US for
Speaker 2: that situation for whatever reason? Do you think that Trump
Speaker 2: is really the blame for this situation? And is it
Speaker 2: solely fall.
Speaker 1: Name for which situation? I mean, he certainly wasn't Ukraine Russia? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think the one to blame. There is another egomaniac
Speaker 1: named Putin, right, and Putin was determined to make a
Speaker 1: greater Soviet Union again, Yeah, and he's thought he again
Speaker 1: misread simplistic solution to a complex problem. He misread the
Speaker 1: situation in the Ukraine that they would be easy marks
Speaker 1: for him to march in and him take over a
Speaker 1: part of their territory. So again it starts, I think
Speaker 1: with Putin. Unfortunately, again, Trump, being who he is and
Speaker 1: his his sense that he has this charisma that can
Speaker 1: make other people bend to his ways. Thought that Putin
Speaker 1: would come around and he would come up with an
Speaker 1: alliance and they would solve the Russian Ukraine problem, just
Speaker 1: like he did with Netanyahu. Unfortunately, he's dealing with people
Speaker 1: who are much the same as he is. And then
Speaker 1: you got guys like Erdawan and Turkey and Orebon and Hungry,
Speaker 1: all these people that he aligns himself with that are
Speaker 1: also of the same ilk. So I mean, think about
Speaker 1: the simplistic solutions that he's coming up with while he's
Speaker 1: alienating NATO, our historic allies, making like they have robbing us.
Speaker 1: That's such misinformation. Again, it's so interesting. Have you been
Speaker 1: in Europe recently?
Speaker 2: No, I have not.
Speaker 1: Europe is so far ahead of us in their lifestyle.
Speaker 1: They have buses that don't give off missions. They have
Speaker 1: lights when you go into the room to go on
Speaker 1: and off. They have escalators at the airport that shut
Speaker 1: down if there's nobody running on them. They have streets
Speaker 1: that are paved. We are becoming a third world country.
Speaker 1: He's telling everybody we're the greatest country in the world.
Speaker 1: My eyes tell me that you go to a place
Speaker 1: like Spain or France. They live so much healthier lifestyles.
Speaker 1: They take breaks in the middle of the day, they
Speaker 1: don't work the number of hours we work. They get
Speaker 1: all these benefits that he calls the socialist conspiracy. They
Speaker 1: get their they get their medicine paid for, they get
Speaker 1: their education paid for, they get their home googling and
Speaker 1: paid for it for their children. And we're talking about
Speaker 1: them like they're crazy people. We aren't getting the facts
Speaker 1: out there for us to listen to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but our situation has gone This is years in
Speaker 2: the making. This isn't specific to any Republican or Democratic
Speaker 2: president regardless. It's been going on for quite some time.
Speaker 1: But it's been taken to an extreme.
Speaker 2: Well, it has because people tend to not like Trump.
Speaker 2: And you know, call it what you will, but you know,
Speaker 2: when everybody is doing everything they can to focus the
Speaker 2: messaging on Trump. Bad, Hey, Trump, he's going to be
Speaker 2: the scapegoat of everything.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: He's not perfect. I've already admitted that, and he does
Speaker 2: do some stupid things. I mean, we can't. I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna sit here and pat him on the back all
Speaker 2: day because I can't. You know, we can't deny. It's
Speaker 2: like I scratch my head constantly, like what are you doing?
Speaker 2: You know? Sometimes I'm like, okay, you got something, but
Speaker 2: then you got a question what was that accidental?
Speaker 1: To?
Speaker 2: Just was it really planned? I have no idea. He's
Speaker 2: definitely going to be studied for years, I believe. Now,
Speaker 2: as far as Ukraine goes, let's talk about that, because
Speaker 2: that whole thing started way back in fact during the
Speaker 2: Obama administration. Everybody turned their back when Russia took over
Speaker 2: the Crimean it was annexed. Nobody stepped in to help
Speaker 2: Ukraine at that point. Here we go fast forward. Russia's
Speaker 2: trying to do it again because, as you said, Putin
Speaker 2: wants to reunite the old USSR. That's always been his goal.
Speaker 2: He's never hit it. He's said it many, many, many times.
Speaker 2: He's getting older. There's a legacy issue for him. He's
Speaker 2: getting older. He's been in power for a long time.
Speaker 2: I think it's now or never for him. Now. I
Speaker 2: call this a Cold World War III, because reality is
Speaker 2: China is involved. They have troops there, although they're claiming
Speaker 2: they're not involved in the war. They have North Korean
Speaker 2: troops there, and Iran has been sending technology and drones
Speaker 2: and other things to support this war as well. Everybody
Speaker 2: else has done nothing. Let's just be quite honest. Europe
Speaker 2: hasn't done anything. Ker Starmer talks loud, mccron talks loud.
Speaker 2: Nobody does it thing. The United Kingdom signed one hundred
Speaker 2: year agreement with Ukraine way before the incident happened in
Speaker 2: the White House between Zelensky and Trump. By the way,
Speaker 2: signed in January twenty twenty five, where they committed to
Speaker 2: build up their economic trade okay using by the way
Speaker 2: UK trade partners and trade channels. They were gonna bulsh
Speaker 2: their business, help them with their minerals, and protect them.
Speaker 2: A one hundred year agreement that was signed January twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five. Nothing has happened. Nothing outside of maybe sending
Speaker 2: a little bit of money, maybe they get a little
Speaker 2: bit of munitions. Even Kris Starmer said, hey, we're gonna
Speaker 2: We're gonna go ahead and we're gonna ramp everything up.
Speaker 2: We're gonna put boots on the ground. Hasn't happened. Nobody's
Speaker 2: putting boots on the ground, it doesn't matter who it is.
Speaker 2: Yet the US is blamed for the whole thing because
Speaker 2: we're seeing as the superpower what's stopping Europe. Poland is
Speaker 2: on the ready. Poland has been very very much on
Speaker 2: the ready and protecting their border and ready to go.
Speaker 2: But the reality is nobody wants a nuclear war. Nobody
Speaker 2: wants to admit that they No one's really coming out
Speaker 2: and say that that's the only reason they're letting putin.
Speaker 2: Do you know doing anything he does? Now you take
Speaker 2: that into account that China at anytime they're saying they
Speaker 2: don't support this, but yet they're sending troops and then
Speaker 2: they're playing games over there in Taiwan. So this situation
Speaker 2: is bad regardless if Europe steps in. If you're up
Speaker 2: steps in, China might say, cool, here's our opportunity. While
Speaker 2: everybody's focused over here in the US might have to
Speaker 2: go and help their allies. They're going to move in
Speaker 2: on Taiwan. Right, So, while the US gets the blame
Speaker 2: and Trump gets a blame, this thing was debacled. This
Speaker 2: was a mess since Obama. Nothing happened under the Biden administration. Either,
Speaker 2: nobody wanted to step foot, everybody talk loud, nobody did anything.
Speaker 2: I personally think it's time to pull our heads out
Speaker 2: of our ass. Trump needs to go in and we
Speaker 2: need to do something because we also have an agreement
Speaker 2: with the Ukraine. Are we really going to be protecting them?
Speaker 2: Is the UK going to protect them? Or is everybody
Speaker 2: just going to posture and try to win brownie points,
Speaker 2: you know in the media by saying, Hey, I'm speaking
Speaker 2: tough to Putin. Putin don't give a damn. Putin can
Speaker 2: care less. He's already called everybody's bluff. So what's the
Speaker 2: next step. We could point the finger who's the blame?
Speaker 2: But who step?
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about who's the blame?
Speaker 2: No, I know I've said, but everyone's doing that right now.
Speaker 2: So I'm saying, like, who's going to stay? We need
Speaker 2: a solution, We need a solution.
Speaker 1: This goes back, This goes back to the fall of
Speaker 1: the Russian Empire. Yes, yes, we made some very tactical
Speaker 1: errors in closing in on Russia with NATO. I think I.
Speaker 2: Don't disagree with that. By the way, I think I
Speaker 2: think that was a bad move. It really was.
Speaker 1: It was a bad move, And I think what we
Speaker 1: created going way back, so we're going back into the
Speaker 1: twentieth century. That Uh, lots of errors have been made,
Speaker 1: a lot of simplistic solutions to complex problems. I'm not
Speaker 1: here to blame Trump for having caused this. What I
Speaker 1: do concern myself with is when he says things like
Speaker 1: the Ukraine attacked Russia, that those kinds of misinformation are problematic.
Speaker 2: And I agree with you, I do.
Speaker 1: I think that's wrong, and I'm agreeing with you too.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very scary because if we back Russia
Speaker 1: into a position where they feel they have to strike
Speaker 1: out with nuclear weapons, we'll have a horrendous situation. So
Speaker 1: we don't want to do that. But it's very important
Speaker 1: I think for the United States to stand with its
Speaker 1: allies and say we we will confront this together, not
Speaker 1: to blame them, not to distort this as we have
Speaker 1: no problem with Russia. We do the Russian The Russian
Speaker 1: situation is problematic for us and for them, And and
Speaker 1: I keep coming back to this. The solutions are collaborative,
Speaker 1: The solutions are discussion. The solutions are looking at both
Speaker 1: sides of an issue. Russia needs protection, Russia needs to
Speaker 1: know that NATO is not going to infringe upon them, right,
Speaker 1: Russia needs to know that they're going to have us
Speaker 1: access to selling their goods again and building back their economy.
Speaker 1: There needs to be people coming together, collaborating in a
Speaker 1: sensible dialogue instead of us against them, whoever them is.
Speaker 2: You're spot on there, because everybody wants to be everyone
Speaker 2: wants to take credit at this point, right, the UK
Speaker 2: wants to be the one to say, look, solution I have,
Speaker 2: We're the hero. France, same thing. Obviously Trump's doing the
Speaker 2: same thing. It's it's a it's a really dire situation
Speaker 2: because the people that are suffering, the people in the
Speaker 2: Ukraine period, Zelensky cannot win this war. He can't on
Speaker 2: his own. Like I said, everybody's sending munitions and money,
Speaker 2: but that's not going to win it. It's going to
Speaker 2: have to be numbers, bodies, boots, period. That's the only
Speaker 2: thing that's going to work. But people don't realize that.
Speaker 1: I'm concerned if you start sending boots in exescalate exactly.
Speaker 1: That's that's that's the crux of it, right, agree. So again,
Speaker 1: I you're very knowledgeable about this, George, But my sense
Speaker 1: is both sides have reasonable positions that need to be heard.
Speaker 2: No, agreed, agreed, and I was I was going to
Speaker 2: echo what you said earlier about Rump.
Speaker 1: Was the success in this last election because he heard
Speaker 1: the voices of people who were in pain that the
Speaker 1: Democrats were talking about all kinds of what's the word
Speaker 1: for it, social issues? Should transgender people play sports rather
Speaker 1: than talk about the price of eggs, rather than talk
Speaker 1: about the fact that people are feeling cut off and
Speaker 1: they don't have access. Again, is this country cannot operate
Speaker 1: without immigrants, even illegal immigrants. What's happening? What's happening in
Speaker 1: my own community. I was sitting in the diner the
Speaker 1: other day in Salem, Massachusetts, and the waitress said to me,
Speaker 1: you know what's happened. None of the Hispanic people come
Speaker 1: here anymore. They're all frightened. They're all frightened. They're going
Speaker 1: to get rounded up. There used to be all these
Speaker 1: workers at home Depot who would line up there every
Speaker 1: morning to help tractors and landscapers and all kinds off.
Speaker 1: They don't come there anymore because they're afraid they're going
Speaker 1: to be targeted and arrested. We need these people. No,
Speaker 1: there aren't poor people who want to do what the
Speaker 1: day laborers do who are illegal eminents our country. Will
Speaker 1: you guys out in California will have no more avocados
Speaker 1: if you don't have those people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, our avocados were pretty much given away to
Speaker 2: Mexico as it was as far as an industry. It
Speaker 2: started in California and now we import it all from Mexico.
Speaker 2: So here's that with avocados. I don't disagree with your statements.
Speaker 2: This is a tricky situation because I think that we
Speaker 2: need to enforce policies to protect our sovereignty in our borders.
Speaker 2: But we shouldn't be targeting everybody who looks like an
Speaker 2: illegal immigrant. You know, you have to you have to
Speaker 2: do your research.
Speaker 1: In that's right. If and he he Trump said he
Speaker 1: was going to go after those people who were criminals.
Speaker 2: Yes that was what he said.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's what he said. But he's not doing that.
Speaker 1: He's going into places like the home depot and rounding
Speaker 1: up everybody who's brown.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're casting two wide of a net on this.
Speaker 2: I mean, I believe, I believe you and I may
Speaker 2: be in agreement on this. They should just go out
Speaker 2: for the people with the criminal records. That are obviously
Speaker 2: not legal but have a criminal background. They need to
Speaker 2: be addressed period. The way this law even works, so
Speaker 2: even if you have a green card, by the way,
Speaker 2: if you commit a crime, you are still eligible to
Speaker 2: be deported. You're not safe in that either until that
Speaker 2: you actually become a citizens. As far as you said,
Speaker 2: with the legal workers that will do the work in
Speaker 2: the fields, we do need them now at that point though,
Speaker 2: if they did this legally, they're not illegal. They do
Speaker 2: get a visa in which they are allotted a certain
Speaker 2: amount of time to stay here and work under a
Speaker 2: legal status.
Speaker 1: We are in total agreement. Yeah, there needs to be
Speaker 1: laws that are reasonable, that can be enforced absolutely, and
Speaker 1: we can't just have porous boilers where anybody can cross
Speaker 1: over and do that. Again, it requires people working together
Speaker 1: to sensibly work out and collaborate together to make regulations
Speaker 1: and rules that work and that are in the best
Speaker 1: interest of everyone.
Speaker 2: Agreed. We need to do better, period. You know, we
Speaker 2: need to do better. It wouldn't look so drastic if
Speaker 2: we didn't let it get to this point. It's the
Speaker 2: problem I'm having with the way Trump has hand this.
Speaker 2: Like I said, I agree with trying to clean up
Speaker 2: the mess. But he's he's taking a hammer and just hitting.
Speaker 2: It's like playing whackamle on whatever. Right, he's bringing down
Speaker 2: a hammer instead of using you know, the term kid clubs, like,
Speaker 2: you know, hey, let's be gentle about this. Let's let's
Speaker 2: try to approach this amicably. Because what gets me is
Speaker 2: this when you have a family and you're just taking
Speaker 2: the mother away after being here ten to twenty five years.
Speaker 2: And now I'll just put this out there, and you
Speaker 2: might disagree with me, doesn't matter how long you've been here.
Speaker 2: If you committed the crime of coming over illegally, it's
Speaker 2: going to catch up to you eventually. Just as if
Speaker 2: I robbed a bank, got away with her for twenty
Speaker 2: years and all of a sudden the FBI finds out
Speaker 2: where I am and knocks on my door. That's serving justice.
Speaker 2: But in this case, with a family, do you think,
Speaker 2: and I think this, by the way, should you not
Speaker 2: take that situation differently? Should you not say, okay, look,
Speaker 2: there's a family here. She's already this mother or this
Speaker 2: dad has children, been here for ten fifteen years. Maybe
Speaker 2: negotiate to work out a program with them that they
Speaker 2: can take steps to make them legal or give them
Speaker 2: an extension, say all right, here's what's going on. We
Speaker 2: need you to do this, and we'll let you stay
Speaker 2: here for six months, for example, to get everything straight.
Speaker 2: How do you feel about that as a solution to
Speaker 2: those problems.
Speaker 1: George, I'm impressed that you're a sensible man. I try
Speaker 1: to be, and that, of course, there has to be
Speaker 1: sensible mechanisms for evaluating a situation. You have a situation
Speaker 1: where you have a family where that the children are
Speaker 1: a fact Americans, We're born here and the parents came
Speaker 1: in here illegally. We need to come up with ways
Speaker 1: of saying, okay, it's in the family's best interest, in
Speaker 1: the community's best interests to give those people a mechanism
Speaker 1: for becoming citizens. It's much like we talked about dreamers
Speaker 1: at one point, so that they had mechanisms for becoming citizens.
Speaker 1: We can't do things with a hammer, we can't do
Speaker 1: things with broad us in they statements that anybody who
Speaker 1: was not born here has to be eliminated. We need
Speaker 1: to think about what are the effects on families, on
Speaker 1: the community, on industries. That requires us all sitting down,
Speaker 1: people like you and me, talking about reasonable solutions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, you're you're correct. I mean, you're correct.
Speaker 1: I'm with you.
Speaker 2: I got my moments. Let's put that I'm never always correct.
Speaker 2: I mean I never always get it right. Believe me.
Speaker 2: It's too hard. It's too hard to be uh, you know,
Speaker 2: to to have a definite answer these things, as you said,
Speaker 2: because you know, there's a lot of gray area that's
Speaker 2: always ignored. It's not a black it's nothing black and white.
Speaker 2: You know, everybody lives in the gray. We gotta admit that.
Speaker 2: Nobody nobody looks it that way, at least right now
Speaker 2: with everything going on. It's just black white done. No,
Speaker 2: there's a big gray area that everybody lives in period. Yes,
Speaker 2: not being as.
Speaker 1: Again that that requires sensibility. You know, I was going
Speaker 1: to say this before. Sure was a philosopher named Levi Strauss.
Speaker 1: Do you know of him?
Speaker 2: I heard the name. I don't know the work.
Speaker 1: He taught at the University of Chicago. Uh. He was
Speaker 1: a Holocaust victim in Germany. Many. He escaped from Germany
Speaker 1: and taught philosophy at the University of Chicago, and many
Speaker 1: of his students were the neo cons who worked in
Speaker 1: the Bush won a Bush to administration and Strauss said
Speaker 1: it's in the best interests of the community to lie
Speaker 1: to them if they can't understand the issues, make up
Speaker 1: excuses such as weapons of mass destruction, make up those situations,
Speaker 1: and that will give you access to taking care of
Speaker 1: the people in the way that they should be taken
Speaker 1: care of. Unfortunately, I think Leo Strauss made a terrible error.
Speaker 1: You know, Plato, Plato in the Republic, many many generations ago,
Speaker 1: said that philosophers should be king. Unfortunately, nobody listens to them.
Speaker 1: They're the first ones to know there's a problem, but
Speaker 1: the last one to have any impact. So Strauss said, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to wait for Plato's solution to teach
Speaker 1: the people. We got to do it and protect people. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: that's too often what is happening now in our country.
Speaker 2: That's been yeah for a while, right, that's the playbook.
Speaker 1: Tell people what they can understand, even if it's not
Speaker 1: the truth, and come up with solutions that they can
Speaker 1: buy into. And that's not just one side of the other.
Speaker 1: That's not taking responsibility for saying I don't have a
Speaker 1: solution that you'll buy into. Let's sit and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: keep saying this Let's come up with dialogue, Let's come
Speaker 1: up with consensus. Let's come up with mechanisms that bring
Speaker 1: people to listen to one another. You and I don't
Speaker 1: agree about everything, but we agree about enough that we
Speaker 1: can sit down and we can talk, and we could
Speaker 1: look for common reality. So it goes forward.
Speaker 2: I think I think the opposition of opinion is how
Speaker 2: you come to a solution in the middle. I mean,
Speaker 2: if you can't hear each other out, you're never going
Speaker 2: to come up with a solution. You're just going to
Speaker 2: continue to be segregated right, left, whatever. You know, it's
Speaker 2: just ridiculous if you can't sit down and talk about
Speaker 2: these issues, deal with your own emotions, angers, whatever it is.
Speaker 2: You have to be able to sit down, check that
Speaker 2: shit at the door, and just talk about the issues.
Speaker 2: I'll ask you, Evan, what's your view on this? Great,
Speaker 2: I'll take it in. I'll give you mine same thing,
Speaker 2: and then in our minds we're calculating I don't agree
Speaker 2: with that, but he made a point here. And then
Speaker 2: bring those back together and we say, all right, here's
Speaker 2: here's what we have. We got we got kind of
Speaker 2: an outline we can start with, and we just hash
Speaker 2: it out right. That's the way it should That's.
Speaker 1: What I'm promulgating. That's my thesis. Let's sit down, let's
Speaker 1: hear each other, Let's understand what g need, what I need.
Speaker 1: Let's come up with a solution. You know, there was
Speaker 1: a time when when Congress worked that way for various
Speaker 1: other reasons. You know, I'll give you something for your farmers,
Speaker 1: you give me something for my industrial people, will bother
Speaker 1: us solutions together.
Speaker 2: We don't do that anymore, No, they don't. It's either
Speaker 2: this or nothing. Yes, especially how they pack everything with
Speaker 2: all this pork and try to sneakers in with these
Speaker 2: five thousand pages. They know nobody's going to read. Who
Speaker 2: has time for that? It's like, hey, we released a
Speaker 2: support here's Thursday. We're voting on a Friday. Who has
Speaker 2: time for that? Like this, it's ridiculous, you know. And
Speaker 2: it's always a one sided issue, always always one sided,
Speaker 2: and it's very ridiculous because it does leave a lot
Speaker 2: of people out, the needs of the actual people. That's
Speaker 2: what I'm getting tired of in America right now. I
Speaker 2: don't care who the president is, by the way, the
Speaker 2: reality is this country has not been looking out for
Speaker 2: its people. They've been playing on emotions. It's it's like
Speaker 2: you said earlier. I don't know if I'm correct on this,
Speaker 2: but it's kind of an example of what you're talking
Speaker 2: about earlier with Levi Strauss for example. Is that power
Speaker 2: over behavior? Right to me? I look at it from
Speaker 2: like a business owner. Okay, the government is playing a
Speaker 2: sigh up and they have an amazing marketing team, and
Speaker 2: they know how to pull on your emotions, pull on
Speaker 2: your heartstrings, to direct you where they want you to go.
Speaker 2: They're playing they're playing chess with us. Basically, that's exactly
Speaker 2: what they're doing. You know, we're the ponds, yes, and
Speaker 2: unfortunately we keep playing into their hand, they keep segreging.
Speaker 2: I don't know, just kind of just.
Speaker 1: Kind of happened. Well, your sensibility.
Speaker 2: I started with my brother, so he's been he's been
Speaker 2: a podcaster for probably nine eight nine years now, and
Speaker 2: I started on his show a little bit here and there.
Speaker 2: And I've always been into politics, philosophy, everything. I'm not
Speaker 2: as educated as you and it by the way, I
Speaker 2: can't just call people's names out in quotes, but you know,
Speaker 2: I do like I do like it, and I've been
Speaker 2: interest in politics for a very long time.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: The reason I got into this is because I hear
Speaker 2: a lot of people talk. I hear these shows, I
Speaker 2: hear these talking heads that are just reading whatever script
Speaker 2: on is a teleprompter, and I hear a lot of
Speaker 2: these other podcasters, and I'm like, they don't know what
Speaker 2: they're talking about, or if they do make a point.
Speaker 2: I just got the I just got to a position
Speaker 2: in my life where I said, you know what, I
Speaker 2: have nothing to lose. Why don't I get on the
Speaker 2: mic and see if I can make a difference or
Speaker 2: at least vent or say what's on the top off
Speaker 2: the top of my head. But I'll admit I say
Speaker 2: some outlanda shit sometimes I know that I'll say something
Speaker 2: and later on go you know, probably should kind of
Speaker 2: reel that one back a little because we do this
Speaker 2: in real time.
Speaker 1: I like your sensibility. I hope that that you get
Speaker 1: heard by lots of people because you're making sense.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that, Thank you. But the problem with doing this,
Speaker 2: Evan is we respond in real time, right. And I've
Speaker 2: said this before with other people, and I've had YouTubers,
Speaker 2: I've speaked to people in the Intel community people in
Speaker 2: the military. Like I've had very various guests and people
Speaker 2: I connect with since i've been doing this, and you're
Speaker 2: always right today, wrong tomorrow. You can't keep up with
Speaker 2: the news cycle. You can't keep up with what's happening,
Speaker 2: you know, And we live in a world of sound
Speaker 2: bites and clips, you know, we always get just a
Speaker 2: snippet of the actual information. Right everything's on social media.
Speaker 2: You never see the full video clip. You just see
Speaker 2: that one moment where they see the white guy being racist,
Speaker 2: for example, or the brown guy getting arrested. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to say whether those particular situations are right wrong,
Speaker 2: But we don't see the we don't get the whole
Speaker 2: context of what's happening, and people just eat it up,
Speaker 2: and they're conditioning us, just as you said, they're conditioning
Speaker 2: us with this. It's a tool, you know.
Speaker 1: I go back a long way. I was a medic
Speaker 1: during the Vietnam War. I decided when I got out
Speaker 1: of the army, I was going to go to graduate
Speaker 1: school in psychology and do good. And some of the
Speaker 1: things that I worked on turned into such disasters. For example,
Speaker 1: I was part of a class action suit that took
Speaker 1: adolescents and children off adult psychiatric units so that they
Speaker 1: were being treated back in the nineteen sixties and seventies
Speaker 1: amongst adult crazies, and it was totally inappropriate. Then I
Speaker 1: was part of an action to close down mental hospitals. Well,
Speaker 1: we had a daily census in Massachusetts between thirty and
Speaker 1: fifty thousand patients in psychiatric hospital state hospitals back in
Speaker 1: that era. You know where they are now?
Speaker 2: No, they're homeless.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's the same number of people in Massachusetts
Speaker 1: who are on the streets.
Speaker 2: I was since you brought that up. I've had that
Speaker 2: opinion because I've I've known people who are in various
Speaker 2: organizations that would serve the homeless community. Yes, and I
Speaker 2: hate to say this, but the truth of the matter
Speaker 2: is exactly what you said. Most of these people have
Speaker 2: been abandoned by the state, the government. They're no longer
Speaker 2: getting funded, they're not getting their medication, not getting care,
Speaker 2: and they're left out in the cult to figure it out.
Speaker 2: They can't rejoint society because they're not they're not capable
Speaker 2: of it. Yeah, it's it's not that they're not smart.
Speaker 2: For example, what it was just they lacked social skills
Speaker 2: or whatever it is that will allow them to.
Speaker 1: They're truly sick people. And the fact is we, in
Speaker 1: doing our do gooding, close the mental hospitals. Well it's
Speaker 1: not by chance. That's the same number of people that
Speaker 1: today are on the street.
Speaker 2: What okay, let's get back to that. What was behind
Speaker 2: closing that? What was behind closing the mental hospitals? Did
Speaker 2: they claim it was financial? Was it like? What?
Speaker 1: No? They claimed that the people weren't being treated adequately,
Speaker 1: they weren't being treated humanly. Really well, again in retrospect,
Speaker 1: they were being treated more humanely in the mental hospital
Speaker 1: than they are today on the street sleeping in their fecings.
Speaker 1: So again, we thought we were getting them to a
Speaker 1: place where they could be treated within the community and
Speaker 1: cared for by the community. Community it didn't want them.
Speaker 1: So you know, we tried to set up halfway houses.
Speaker 1: Somebody wanted one in their neighborhood, not mine neighborhood. I
Speaker 1: don't want to be part of a solution.
Speaker 2: There's I mean, you know, because this is what you did.
Speaker 2: I don't. But from what I've read and what I've
Speaker 2: seen documentaries and whatnot, not an expert, but the mental
Speaker 2: hospitals were definitely an issue when psychology was in its
Speaker 2: infant stages, when it was very experimental. Still they're trying
Speaker 2: to figure that out. But it did get to a
Speaker 2: point where they got a handle on the abuse. But
Speaker 2: yet even after that it did get better, but they
Speaker 2: still decided this isn't good enough. Put these people out
Speaker 2: on the street. That's just crazy.
Speaker 1: I've worked with Yako Sekoa, for example, who's in Finland
Speaker 1: and back in the Scandinavian countries. The community works together
Speaker 1: to treat the people in the community who are sick.
Speaker 1: They pitch in, they all have roles. Small homogeneous communities
Speaker 1: that care for their own. Our communities are too diverse.
Speaker 1: There people don't care about what's happening down the street.
Speaker 1: It's unfortunate. Churches no longer. When I first started doing psychotherapy,
Speaker 1: I spoke at every church in my town. They all
Speaker 1: called me in to talk about how they can work
Speaker 1: together to do things in their own community. But people
Speaker 1: don't go to church anymore.
Speaker 2: No. Let me ask this, why do you think people
Speaker 2: don't care? Though? When it comes to the people on
Speaker 2: the streets and the homeless, like everyone, it's.
Speaker 1: Not me, it's them. It's us versus them. I'm not that.
Speaker 2: Problem understood, I get that, but what caused that? I
Speaker 2: remember a time where people were more generous, and then
Speaker 2: I think it was sometime in the nineties, it just
Speaker 2: kind of flipped, like all of a sudden, people just
Speaker 2: stopped caring. Yes, you know, they weren't giving them a
Speaker 2: dollar for example, or buying people food. I'm gonna say
Speaker 2: this because I've experienced this myself, and I know this
Speaker 2: from inside information with people who work in the missions
Speaker 2: and whatnot. There are literally people who gave up on society.
Speaker 2: Not just sick, but they just don't want to deal
Speaker 2: with anything and they find that living on the street
Speaker 2: suits them better. That's not the majority, by the way,
Speaker 2: but those people are there. Yeah, And I think that
Speaker 2: people stopped caring because they realized, you know, with all
Speaker 2: the stories coming out and they themselves just being scammed.
Speaker 2: Like even in my town, I we would see the
Speaker 2: same person pulled the same scam over and over for
Speaker 2: two three years, always pregnant, always just got dropped off
Speaker 2: at the bus. One year I recognized here and realized, Hey,
Speaker 2: weren't you just saying this like last year? Yeah, you're
Speaker 2: still pregnant with the same baby. And I think those
Speaker 2: unfortunate circumstances, those unfortunate examples, by the way, is what
Speaker 2: led people to stop caring. They just feel like, I'm
Speaker 2: not making a difference, and these people were just trying
Speaker 2: to take advantage of me.
Speaker 1: When I went to school back in I started college
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four and I went through to get
Speaker 1: my doctorate. Back then, all the smart people that I
Speaker 1: knew were going into professions like psychology or medicine, nursing, education, law.
Speaker 1: They all had a mission to make the community better.
Speaker 1: Sometime after the Vietnam War, sometime around the time of
Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan, the ethos changed to I'm going to make money.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be a successful business person. The smart
Speaker 1: people went to either business school or engineering. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: they know longer had a vested interest in making the
Speaker 1: community better. They came to the notion that they're going
Speaker 1: to make their own lives better. And I think that
Speaker 1: has persisted. I know with even my grandchildren saying to me,
Speaker 1: I have a grandson that graduated high school last week
Speaker 1: and he's going to go to the business school at
Speaker 1: Boston College. And I said, why are you doing that.
Speaker 1: He said, what I mean, why am I doing that?
Speaker 1: He said, I'm really smart. I'm going to be really successful.
Speaker 1: I'm going to make a lot of money. I said,
Speaker 1: but you know what, you are so smart, you are
Speaker 1: so capable of making the world a better place. Why
Speaker 1: aren't you thinking in those terms? He said? Come on, Granddad,
Speaker 1: come on, Grandpa, you're you're you're talking like those those
Speaker 1: hippies of the that you grew up with.
Speaker 2: I don't I mean now that you say it, I mean,
Speaker 2: I do see that there's been less interest in professions
Speaker 2: that actually serve the community or even consider the humanitarian
Speaker 2: effort right. And even the arts is on the decline,
Speaker 2: I believe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, even the arts.
Speaker 2: It's it's sad. And yes, the eighties was the age
Speaker 2: of business, you know, the power suit, the power tie
Speaker 2: of the whole deal. It was all about more and
Speaker 2: more money, you know, so when stock market just it
Speaker 2: was just crazy. Yeah, you may, I think you're onto
Speaker 2: something there, you know. Definitely was a me first attitude
Speaker 2: that really that really started went from.
Speaker 1: A community concern to me first.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, it was a me first attitude. Let's let's
Speaker 2: get back to California a bit and it's not just California.
Speaker 2: I mean there there was a big organized protest on
Speaker 2: June fourteenth, Trump's birthday or the Army's birthday. However you
Speaker 2: want to look at that, you know what? Good? Let
Speaker 2: me ask you this, what are your what are your
Speaker 2: thoughts of what happened in California? Though, I mean we
Speaker 2: did discuss some of it already, but the fighting, infighting
Speaker 2: between the governor, you know, Newsom, Karen Bass, the lack
Speaker 2: of response. Again, I'm not this isn't This isn't me
Speaker 2: saying right versus left, Trump versus whatever. This is literally
Speaker 2: pointing out I believe the error and the lack of
Speaker 2: response to a situation. What do you think the reasoning
Speaker 2: was behind that? Aside aside from political theater? Why did
Speaker 2: Karen Bass not respond with the police and it didn't
Speaker 2: have to be in a violent way, just to control,
Speaker 2: just have a presence. And why did Governor Newsom not
Speaker 2: respond either? What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1: Well? I don't know if I'm the right person to
Speaker 1: respond to that, but sure you are. I thought they
Speaker 1: did respond, Okay, I thought that they were concerned that
Speaker 1: and this is I'm concerned about it in my own community.
Speaker 1: I'm joining an action committee to protect immigrants. That you
Speaker 1: can't have ice come into your community and rip people
Speaker 1: out of their homes.
Speaker 2: We at their jobs. Yeah, we discussed. Agree.
Speaker 1: I think that it was a huge provocation on the
Speaker 1: part of the federal government to start mobilizing. We had
Speaker 1: a situation a couple of weeks ago in Nantucket with
Speaker 1: around that up forty four people who worked in hotels
Speaker 1: and restaurants in Nantucket and put them in a boat
Speaker 1: and took them away. They had no due process. So
Speaker 1: I think their first concern was that you can't you
Speaker 1: can't go into a community and do this without people
Speaker 1: being offended, without people being put in danger. And my
Speaker 1: sense is that there has been a response on the
Speaker 1: part of California government. There was enough police that were
Speaker 1: that kept it contained. There was some bad apples, but
Speaker 1: they mostly contained to a small area. The provocation provocators.
Speaker 1: So I think Trump came in with his guys, escalating
Speaker 1: the crisis to something that was way beyond what we
Speaker 1: really was called for. The National Guard, the Marines.
Speaker 2: The marine should never be deployed on us Soilian citizens period,
Speaker 2: that's not what they do.
Speaker 1: What they do and the same thing what are the
Speaker 1: National Guard doing? Two thousand National guardsmen are protecting the
Speaker 1: federal buildings. Come on, the police have to do this, And.
Speaker 2: That's a bit much, honestly. But the lack of response
Speaker 2: I was referring to was, Yes, the police were there,
Speaker 2: but they did not get deployed until Trump said he
Speaker 2: was going to send the National Guard. Yeah, and even
Speaker 2: Newsom refused to send in the National Guard. Now, I
Speaker 2: agree with you that I don't think there was a
Speaker 2: need for it. There's more more than enough law enforcement
Speaker 2: out there to handle the situation. It really is. Was
Speaker 2: a National Guard needed, I don't believe in this situation,
Speaker 2: But yet they were called in nineteen ninety two during
Speaker 2: the Rodden King riots. There were many examples of when
Speaker 2: the National Guard was called to control riots and protests
Speaker 2: that just got out of hand. Yes, the response to
Speaker 2: the National Guard being sent and taking over of the
Speaker 2: president is a lawful order. And actually, if you go
Speaker 2: to the National Guard's website even says it right there it
Speaker 2: can be called by any time by any governor and
Speaker 2: the president of the United States. So I'm just going
Speaker 2: to put that out there because that is fact. But
Speaker 2: was it needed. No, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: Again, I'm not saying it's illegal. I'm saying it was
Speaker 1: provocative today that the FBI handcuffed through Senator Padilla.
Speaker 2: To the girl. I got to look at that. That's
Speaker 2: that's crazy.
Speaker 1: It's all over the news today and and handcuffed him.
Speaker 1: That's that's not that's not how you treat people. If
Speaker 1: you treat a United States senator that way, how is
Speaker 1: the little guy who works at the local.
Speaker 2: How is it going to feel feel again, it'll be truated. Absolutely. So,
Speaker 2: I didn't see it. I didn't see the reports. You.
Speaker 2: I don't know why I did. This wasn't on my radar.
Speaker 2: It's what I do is it's crazy. So so what
Speaker 2: were the circumstances? Like he was doing nothing other than hey,
Speaker 2: I'm going to question you on what you're doing and
Speaker 2: what's happening. That was it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Christy Nome, the Secretary of Homeland Security, was speaking
Speaker 1: and talking about how the Democrats failed society. Los Angeles
Speaker 1: would have been burnt down if it wasn't for their response,
Speaker 1: and he walked up and said, I want to ask
Speaker 1: you some questions, and they they man handled him, they
Speaker 1: threw him down.
Speaker 2: They yeah, that's that's not right.
Speaker 1: That's again, it's not right out of hand.
Speaker 2: And that's the problem right now with the Trump administration
Speaker 2: at this moment, they had an opportunity to do the
Speaker 2: right thing. The actions like this does not work in
Speaker 2: a favor. That's just this just supports what people are
Speaker 2: saying about him being authoritarian, tyrannical. It's not a good
Speaker 2: look period.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I yeah, I got to look at that. That that
Speaker 2: is just crazy that they treated U Patia that way.
Speaker 2: And you know, even even in the Trump admint like
Speaker 2: my brother's very admin, we're not we're conservative. But even
Speaker 2: he always says on his show is like, I'm conservative,
Speaker 2: but I didn't vote for Trump. That's what he always says.
Speaker 2: He goes. I don't agree with how he handles himself.
Speaker 2: I don't think he's presidential. I don't think he's presidential either.
Speaker 2: And the reality is I like some of the stuff
Speaker 2: he does. But I mean, like I told you, eur
Speaker 2: last crushed my head on a lot, like I don't
Speaker 2: think this is the way, you know, I really don't.
Speaker 1: Again my senses, you need to see people as you
Speaker 1: see yourself, agreed. I mean that says ultimate golden rule, right,
Speaker 1: Tree deficis as you would have them treat you absolutely
Speaker 1: what will need to have a view of the world
Speaker 1: that I am not better or different than you are.
Speaker 1: We both have interests, we both have to take care
Speaker 1: of each other.
Speaker 2: Oh, I absolutely agree with you. I was going to
Speaker 2: say something about the Trump administration and that The other
Speaker 2: thing that stood out is the fumbling of many things
Speaker 2: that were promised that haven't been delivered. You know, we're
Speaker 2: still looking at Epstein files that are allegedly now there's
Speaker 2: no video, there's no evidence. Even though they have like
Speaker 2: a ten plus year investigation regarding Epstein, suddenly nothing exists,
Speaker 2: nothing's viable, we can't release anything. There's nothing there, which
Speaker 2: is ridiculous. And then they give the binders to a
Speaker 2: bunch of social media influencers. You know what kind of
Speaker 2: move was that that there's a lot of stupidity. I
Speaker 2: think that is not winning winning the people over. It
Speaker 2: really isn't. He has some people in his administration that
Speaker 2: should not be in the positions they're in. The one
Speaker 2: thing that was surprising to me is he does have
Speaker 2: some people that were from the Democrat Party that came over.
Speaker 2: But you know those people such as you know RF K.
Speaker 2: Junior and whatnot. Don't feel that they're part of that
Speaker 2: party anymore. But still some of his administration. Even he himself,
Speaker 2: by the way, is not necessarily a true conservative. I
Speaker 2: don't know where he is. I don't even know where
Speaker 2: he sits.
Speaker 1: I mean, where did he come up with this tariff idea?
Speaker 1: I mean it comes from Navarro. Navarro is not a
Speaker 1: credible economist, and he hires Navarro to make this tariff
Speaker 1: policy for him. Where does he come off? And picking
Speaker 1: Hexa as the Secretary of Defense agreed these guys have
Speaker 1: no credibility.
Speaker 2: I I might argue with you in that the whole
Speaker 2: terrif idea. I understand what he was trying to do.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it was the right thing to do
Speaker 2: in modern times, Okay, but you know, we were a
Speaker 2: tariff nation. This is fact. We did make our money
Speaker 2: on teriffs. But there was also a different world back then.
Speaker 2: It was not as interwoven as it is now. You know,
Speaker 2: of course.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can't make an airplane with parts just
Speaker 1: from the United States.
Speaker 2: Not not gonna happen.
Speaker 1: It's a world economy. It's such a myopic response against simplistic.
Speaker 2: I think Trump's approach was literally, it's a tit for
Speaker 2: tat right, Hey, you're charging me two hundred percent. We've
Speaker 2: done nothing about it. Well, hell, I'm going to charge
Speaker 2: you two hundred percent now. Yeah. Over the countries he
Speaker 2: did that with it's a zero, right.
Speaker 1: Who sell vanilla? And and and agreed. Of course they
Speaker 1: buy more than them, We buy from them.
Speaker 2: Right, stupid. But it's it's a to me, it's a
Speaker 2: race to zero because it's it's meant, it's meant the intention,
Speaker 2: I could, I could read right through it. I understand
Speaker 2: the intention. Oh, this will get people to focus on
Speaker 2: domestic production, things made here in the USA. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: we're not set up for that yet. Like I said earlier,
Speaker 2: he uses a hammer without giving you know, a defined,
Speaker 2: guided step of how to get there. You can't just
Speaker 2: say we're gonna turn it off. Now. I can see
Speaker 2: this being a ten year plan, maybe even a fifteen
Speaker 2: year plan, but it can't be a tomorrow plan. And
Speaker 2: it's just hurting everybody in regards to what everybody says. Look,
Speaker 2: inflation might be dolistic, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Plistic solution to complex problems.
Speaker 2: Agreed, and inflation may be down, But then the economy
Speaker 2: itself is not doing so good right now. You know,
Speaker 2: it really isn't even in my industry. It's like it's
Speaker 2: it's almost like they just suck the air out of it.
Speaker 2: It's it feels almost like pandemic level business right now,
Speaker 2: back in the COVID times for a lot of people
Speaker 2: in my industry and a lot of industries. It's it's
Speaker 2: not my industry too.
Speaker 1: I mean you as well again. Medicine and psychology, the
Speaker 1: whole ancillary medical field is being run by large corporations
Speaker 1: that are making money at the expense of the people
Speaker 1: who need a benefit from these services. Yeah, it's we
Speaker 1: need to rethink things.
Speaker 2: How is how is it to go?
Speaker 1: Unfortunately?
Speaker 2: Ah, I've enjoyed our talk. I was just going to
Speaker 2: get into the insurance part of it. But that's the fine. No,
Speaker 2: I appreciate your time. Tell everybody about your book, where
Speaker 2: they can get it and how they can find you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's on all the major outlets. Amazon, you can
Speaker 1: get on it. Most bookstores you can order it through
Speaker 1: their catalogs. I hope people who liked what I've had
Speaker 1: to say and the ideas that I've expressed will go
Speaker 1: out and buy the book. I think it's particularly relevant
Speaker 1: to today's community.
Speaker 2: No, it is, and I'd love to pick this up
Speaker 2: again because it sounds like you and I have a
Speaker 2: lot to talk about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd love to talk with you more. Georgia. I
Speaker 1: think you're being sensible. It's nice to see sensible people
Speaker 1: who are not being driven by some alternative philosophy.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that, and same for you. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: all about what you said. We need to come to
Speaker 2: the table, we need to discuss these issues, and we
Speaker 2: need to live in reality. I mean, we need to
Speaker 2: be realistic about it, but.
Speaker 1: We also need to listen.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we didn't listen to each other. I agree, absolutely.
Speaker 2: Thank you Evan, and thank you George again.
Speaker 1: It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll talk again, all right, I'd okay, sir,
Speaker 2: all right, as usual, Thanks for sticking around and either
Speaker 2: listening or watching or both, and please like subscribe to
Speaker 2: share the show, and as always, have a great day
Speaker 2: days your content, feel attention.
Speaker 1: Deviltemption stands on my