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Speaker 1: So this is a tale as old as time. You know,

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governments run up huge debts, they spend way more than

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they collect in taxes. They try to resort to money

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printing or monetary debasement to fix the problem. It doesn't

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fix the problem. It just causes even more problems, and

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then eventually, you know, the empire withers away.

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Speaker 2: So you're listening to Carrie Leutz's Financial Survival Network where

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you get valuable information. You just can't find anywhere else

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to thrive in today's trying times. You need the Financial

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Survival Network now more than ever. Go to Financial Survivalnetwork

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dot com and get your free newsletter and gift. Financial

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Survival Network now more than ever.

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Speaker 3: And welcome you are listening to and watching the Financial

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Survival Network. I'm your host, Carrie Lutz. Well, we're almost

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done with electioncies, and thank goodness, that's all anybody seems

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to talk about or think about at the present. But

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what is this election really going to solve, if anything?

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Speaker 1: That's what I'd like to know.

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Speaker 3: And doctor Jonathan Newman is with us from one of

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my favorite organizations, the Mesis Foundation, and I'm a big

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the Mesis institute. I should say, which is a nonprofit.

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I'm a big fan booster of theirs. Interviewed many people

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from the organization over the years. Probably the leading libertarian

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think tank on the planet, and it keeps growing.

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Speaker 1: Jonathan, it's great to have you on. Hey, thanks for

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having me on.

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Speaker 3: Hey, So mesis I remember when started the first website

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for mesis probably about twenty five God, it must be

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twenty five years at this point, and the organization's really growing,

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isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, we're doing well. So if people are unfamiliar,

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the Mesa's Institute is an educational organization that it's dedicated

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to spreading the message of liberty, especially Austrian economics, which

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is a particular branch or school of thought in economics

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that champion is the individual. So we start with an

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individual's values, their subjective value and the importance of market prices,

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and that leads us up to, you know, talking about

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economic calculation, business cycles, and really the whole of economics

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and so both micro stuff and macro stuff. But what

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really sets us apart from the mainstream in most people's

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perspective is the fact that Austrian economists typically come to

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very free market conclusions. So the prescriptions that come from

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Austrian economics is very las fair hands off. The government

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shouldn't be manipulating the money supply, the government shouldn't be

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manipulating interest rates and posting price controls regulations. So we're very,

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very free market. So a lot of our educational programs

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are that have that sort of bent. But one thing

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that people sometimes criticize Austrians for when that up as

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they say, oh, you start, you start with the policy prescriptions,

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you start with free markets, and then you work your

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way backwards to this sort of economic analysis that would

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bring you to that conclusion. But that's not the case.

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If you open up any Austrian texts, especially the big

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ones like Misis's Human Action or Rothbard's Man Economy and State,

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you see them building economics from the ground up. You

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see them talking about individuals acting and markets coming to

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market prices, and the importance of the profit and loss

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mechanism for economizing resources. And then only later on do

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we reach these conclusions that, hey, when the government gets involved,

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when the government intervenes, we get these bad outcomes. Hey,

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I just my favorite quote, and I did read Human

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Action many many years ago. It was a tough read.

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Speaker 3: You know, twelve thirteen hundred pages with a lot of vocabulary. Now,

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I could just look on the internet and look these

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words up, like praxeology and a pistol something, right, pistemology, yeah,

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epistemology things I knew nothing about, but I read it,

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and I remember one quote that's often attributed to mesis

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I hope it's true. He says, only government can take

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a valuable commodity like paper and make it worthless by

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applying ink and printing money. Right now, they didn't even

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need to use the paper, they use electrons.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I'm not exactly sure where that quote is,

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but that does sort of sound like something that Mysis

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would say. Of course, Well, what he's getting at there

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is the government intervention in monetary matters and in banking matters,

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and so what we've seen over the twentieth century especially,

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is the government took over so many things that had

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been performed by the market. So we had we had

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markets for money where under the gold standard, we had

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gold miners who were getting gold out of the ground

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and then mentors who were making coins out of it,

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and that sort of to where the market was selecting

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the money that it wanted, and it was regulated by

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the market. It worked very well for thousands of years.

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But then over the twentieth century, the US government, but

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also governments around the world, realize that there's a tremendous

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benefit to being in control of the printing press, tremendous

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benefit to being able to regulate banking and have the

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banking system become cartialized. In that way, it's much easier

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to do government finance. It's much easier for the government

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to spend as much as it wants and pile up

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massive amounts of debts. And the reason why is because

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it has a ready buyer of its debt in the

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form of the central bank. So really, a lot of

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people think backwards when it comes to money. They start

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with the US dollar, they start with the fiat buddies

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that exist around the world, and then they just sort

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of project that into the past. It's like, oh, government

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has always been in charge of money, Government has always

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been in charge of the printing press, and so this

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is the way that it ought to be. But of course,

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as we see throughout human history and also more recent

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history of the past century, that what has happened is

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the government has corrupted a very important institution. It has

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corrupted the monetary sphere to serve its own interests.

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Speaker 3: So one thing Murray Rothbard often was a proponent of

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was competing currencies. Now we've got these cryptocurrencies, although I

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call many of them klepto currencies, but something like bitcoin

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and the others potentially provide that. Although the government now

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originally they were majorly against it, but now they seem

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to be more in favor of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the advent of cryptocurrencies has been very interesting, and

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I think you're right that the main draw to bitcoin

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is the fact that it's a way to escape from

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the government managed money and banking system that we have today.

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It's a way to break free from the government's inflation.

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It's a way to break free from the banking crises

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that arise when we have a central bank trying to

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manage the making system. So a lot of people, a

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lot of people realize that there's all these flaws with

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government managed money in banking, and so they view cryptocurrency

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and especially bitcoin, as a way to escape that. And

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so for that reason, like I'm a big fan of

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cryptocurrencies in general, I'm a big fan of bitcoin because

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it offers that that escape hatch, that way to get

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out of the system that's managed by the government. And

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I think that's why the government originally considered as the

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major threats like what if what if people do just

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flock to bitcoin, what if people do flock to these

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these cryptocurrencies and that causes a huge decrease in demand

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for the US dollar, that we'd have debt crises, we'd

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have massive inflation. It would be it'd be bad for

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the for the government because they would lose this ability

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to use money, to use money printing finance their own spending.

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Speaker 3: It's not just spending though, too. There's no greater power

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that a country has than to coin its own money,

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to print its own money, because that means control. Right,

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he who has the gold makes the rules, the golden rule.

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It's really the fiat currency rule. He who he who

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sets the legal tender, right is is in charge of things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. And this this goes way back in history,

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where like you can look at the history of the

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Roman Empire and what happened over the course of about

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three centuries or so is they started off with pretty

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sound money. And we can actually look at you know, archaeologically,

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we can you know, find these coins and we know

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what year that they were issued, a year that they

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were minted, and you can analyze the silver content of

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those coins. So they were they had the silver denarios

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and you can actually see the fall of the Roman

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Empire coinciding with the decrease and the value of are

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the amount of silver content in each one of their coins,

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and so what was what was the Roman Empire trying

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to do? They were doing the same thing that the

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US government is doing today. They were trying to spend

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as much as possible. Uh, And they realized that they

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could debase their coinage. They could introduce these baser metals

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into the coinage and make more coins, and this of

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course led to predictable results. You get inflation. They tried

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to impose price controls and that was disastrous and then

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eventually the empire, you know, fell apart. So this is

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a tail as old as time. You know, governments run

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up huge debts, they spend way more than they collect

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in taxes. They try to resort to money printing or

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monetary debasement to fix the problem. It doesn't fix the problem,

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It just causes even more problems and then eventually, you know,

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the empire withers away. So you know, hopefully we can

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have a better story, but right now it doesn't look

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very good.

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Speaker 3: Right, so we're looking at Traditionally the price of gold

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was kind of the hedge against this, but the government

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and the big have figured out how to suppress the

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price of gold and silver, going back to the London

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Gold Pool once upon a time, is it possible? Now

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what we're seeing is them losing control of the price

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of precious medals.

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Speaker 1: Well, what's interesting is you're right. They tried to you know,

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they tried to keep the dollar peg to a certain

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ratio with gold for the longest time. And under the

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Breton Woods Agreement, that was the commitment of the US government.

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They said, we'll let all of these countries around the

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world use US dollars as their reserve currency, and in exchange,

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the US government will stand ready to redeem dollars for

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gold at this exchange ratio. So, even though gold ownership

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had been prohibited in the United States for all the citizens,

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it was still possible for foreign central banks and foreign

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governments to redeem dollars for gold. And of course, with

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Vietnam War, with great society programs. There was a ton

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of government spending, and of course they financed that with

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money printing and low and behold, we got the same outcome.

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We had a decrease in purchasing power, and that would

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have resulted, and it was starting to result in a

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gold flowing out of the US and into these foreign

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governments that were redeeming dollars for gold. And so what

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happened is in August of nineteen seventy one, President Nixon

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ended that agreement. He totally closed the gold window where

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he prevented foreign governments from bringing their dollars in exchanging

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them for gold. And so what we've had since then

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is a pure paper fiat system where now we don't

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even have that constraint on government spending. So it's very

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important for people to realize one of the main benefits

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of the gold standard is that it constrained the government.

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You can't just make more gold, you can't just print,

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you can't press a button and print up more gold.

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But you can do that with green pieces of paper.

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And so now we have this system where the government

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does not constrained by a gold standard. They're they're they're

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not constrained in any meaningful sort of way. And so

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that's that is what has led to this massive increase

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in the size and scope of our governments because they've

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had the printing press.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, so the printing press is is the problem here.

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But governments always do this, right, every government does it.

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We've seen how many hyperinflations since since why More Republic

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in Germany.

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Speaker 1: We've seen probably a couple.

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Speaker 3: Dozen of them happen in various places where they kind

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of lose control of the printing press, right, and then

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all hill proceeds to break loose when the currency crashes.

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So one thing I want to talk to you about though,

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is Argentina. It's kind of become the hope of humanity,

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hasn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, some some good things are happening in Argentina. You'll

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find some different perspectives, different perspectives on what Malay is

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doing among some of the like the purists in the

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libertarian camp, but like, overall, I'm impressed with what he's doing.

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So I recently saw it. I just looked at headlines.

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I didn't do like a deep diving this, but apparently

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Malay eliminated the Argentinian version of the I R. S

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Lay has has you know, promised to have balanced budgets,

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He's brought inflation down, he's you know, getting rid of

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all of the wokeism that's inside the bureaucracies in Argentina.

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So overall, just big picture, I'm in favor of what's

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going on.

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Speaker 3: Imagine that, just getting rid of all of that garbage.

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So Trump this term right, he's anything but a libertarian.

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He turned out to be another big government, big spender,

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big deficits. But now he's promising to put Elon Musk

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in charge of basically getting rid of or cutting the

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government down to size. Now, one of the great things

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about Ai Jonathan is uh I went into chat GPT

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and I said, like, you know, I want to cut

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the budget by two thirds and get rid of the deficit.

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Speaker 1: How would I do it?

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Speaker 3: And it came up with a thing of raising taxes,

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and I said, I want to do it without raising taxes,

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and I want to get rid of one hundred government

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agencies instantly.

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Speaker 1: What can I get rid of?

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Speaker 3: And it gave me a list of agencies here I

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didn't even know existed half of them. I mean the

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Department of Redundancy, Department. You know, that's the way it

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works there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I mean that's that is very encouraging for

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me to see, and I think the people who are

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a part of this, the libertarian camp, they viewed this

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sort of rhetoric coming from the Trump campaign as as encouraging.

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Of course, there's Trump is a mixed bag, you know,

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there's you know, there's good things that he says about

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decreasing taxes, decreasing regulation. Like you mentioned, eliminating government agencies.

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I think probably one of the most important ones is

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the Department of Education. I would love to see that

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thing go away. And the main reason there is because

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of the long term effect on people's ideology. I think

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that if we have the federal government in charge of,

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you know, setting curricula around the country, it means that

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students are going to be presented with a pro government

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narrative there, and so they're going to be predisposed to

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agreeing with price controls, agreeing with inflation, agreeing with the

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institutions that we have as opposed to thinking critically about them.

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So I think I think that's that's huge. But of course,

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you know, like you mentioned, Trump's track record in the

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in his first administration in terms of the size and

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scope of government is not very good. And so there's

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this big question, but will he will he fulfill these

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promises in a potential second term? And of course, I

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so Trump is a mixed bag, but I don't see

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anything that's promising or encouraging in terms of the rhetoric

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or the policy proposals from the Harris camp. So like,

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if I had to, if I had to pick one

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over the other, I would definitely favor the Trump side

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of things, simply because he's got all of this rhetoric

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about reducing regulations, taxes, and getting rid of agencies.

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Speaker 3: So what happens if you give every first time home

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buyer twenty five thousand dollars, I really accomplish anything good?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? That was That's one of the more perplexing I mean,

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I guess I shouldn't be surprised anymore, just given the

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historically bad policy proposals that we see from candidates broadly,

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but also presidential candidates. So like, if we're concerned about

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the cost of home ownership and prices of homes are skyrocketing,

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and they're extremely high even to this day, then how

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could you possibly think that just granting home buyers with

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this twenty five thousand dollars credit would actually help the problem,

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because all that's going to do is just increase the

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demand for housing, which will increase the price of housing. So,

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I mean, it just boggs my mind see these sorts

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of things. It would do the exact opposite thing that

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they're saying it would do. All right, So what about

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borders here?

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Speaker 3: As libertarian, we believe the world is one big, happy

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place and there shouldn't be borders. But as a practical matter,

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I guess a lot of what attracts people here is

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all the free stuff we're giving out. Like I jokingly

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refer to Biden's three main accomplishments when they ended the

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US war in Afghanistan and brought the troops home in

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a week. Number two is he ended the job shortage.

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And number three is he saved the hotel industry, especially

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in the New York.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a variety of opinions about the immigration and

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borders question among libertarians. I don't think it's quite correct

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to say that libertarians are in favor of open borders,

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because libertarians are champions of private property, which means that

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we at least believe in borders surrounding people's individual property

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that they own. And so what that means is that

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all of the bad outcomes, all all the issues that

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we're seeing that are rising from open borders and from

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government managed immigration policy simply arises from the fact that

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the government is the one that's managing it. They're subsidizing

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the immigration, They're making immigration more attract more attractive than

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otherwise would be. But I think every libertarian would be

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in favor of a system in which the government was

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not in charge of that at all, and instead we

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had private property everywhere, which means that we would have

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we would have the market regulating immigration, so we would

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get the we would get the labor coming across the

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border that the market demands, and no more and so

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and so. I think what we have now is just

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a gross distortion of what we would have if we

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had unhampered markets for land and for labor.

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Speaker 3: All right, well, yeah, you got to have some uh,

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some controls in place, you know. This is the thing.

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I had this discussion with somebody today. Interstate highway system. Right,

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I don't as a former attorney, I don't see anyway

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this system could have been built privately. I just don't

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see it. Maybe I'm wrong. You know, some of my

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best friends are libertarians and they fight me tooth and

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nail on that. But the complexity of it, the need

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to acquire property, and then you're always going to have holdouts.

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And I'm a big believer in private property too. How

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do you how do you build an interstate highway system

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without the government.

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Speaker 1: Well, so I would encourage interested listeners to look at

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some of the more in depth research and literature that's

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that's been done on this topic of how the how

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the how the market would provide a road system. I

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think personally, I think that it can be done. But

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also I think that this, like this issue is one

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of the most it's very very low on the totem pole.

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I don't think it like this is an important one. So, like,

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if I can get somebody to agree on all of

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the other issues, the government should get out of money

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and banking, the government should get out of imposing price controls,

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the government should get out of education, we should eliminate

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all of these different government agencies. But if the last

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thing that they're holding on to is you know, roads, courts,

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police and that sort of thing, then I would I

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would say Okay, fine, we'll agree to disagree on those

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sorts of things, because then we'll do with that issue

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when the time comes. But right now, I think we

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have like very important issues like the business cycle and

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like the loss of purchasing power, and like you said,

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the immigration issues that are plaguing the United States and

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countries around the world. So, just in short, to summarize

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my answer, I do think that the market can provide roads,

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including an interstate highway sort of system, based on private

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property and market prices and profit and loss associated with

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making those roads. But it's not that's not something that

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I wake up in the morning and think, Okay, I

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got to go convince people that we can have a

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private road system.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, in the scheme of priorities, it's not

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very high up there. But but you know, and I

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remember seeing a funny meme in Florida. Here, you know,

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they're always watering the islands that are plush, but of

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course they wind up watering the street and and it

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was a meme it said, without government, who would who

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would water the streets? I like that, Hey, Jonathan, how

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do we find you? How do we connect with you

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on the web, and how do we find out more

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about mesas dot org.

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Speaker 1: So I'm I'm pretty active on Twitter and i as

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you can find me just to search for Jonathan Newman.

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But also I write pretty regularly for our website, mesas

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dot org. And so we've got a great website with

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tons and tons of resources, more resources, more literature than

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people can read in a lifetime. And so I highly

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recommend people check out our website. And also a special

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offer for your listeners. If you go to mesis dot

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00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,720
org slash my Money, that's M I S e S

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00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:17,920
dot org Slash my Money, then you can get a

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00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,960
free copy of Murray Rothbards What Has Government Done to

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00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,720
Our Money? It's a great little book, very approachable, very

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00:22:23,759 --> 00:22:27,039
easy to understand, that explains how government has taken over

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money and banking in the United States and around the world,

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and what that is, what that has done to cause inflation,

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what that that is done to cause business cycles, and

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so some proposals about how we should, you know, take

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money and banking back from the state and have it

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returned to the market. So once again that's mesis dot

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00:22:44,519 --> 00:22:45,680
org slash my Money.

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Speaker 3: Come check it out, and that's in the link to

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00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,720
that is in the show that to this interview on

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00:22:50,839 --> 00:22:54,359
Financial Survival Network dot com. While you're there, please sign

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00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,039
up for your free newsletter. Got a lot of great

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00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,480
info going out. Summaries of all the podcast to take

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00:23:00,519 --> 00:23:04,359
place day by day, I probably do I think over

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00:23:04,519 --> 00:23:07,960
nine thousand of them, and I started this channel. Jonathan,

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00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,160
sure you're enough familiar with it, but basically as a

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reverse or an Austrian approach to what was going on

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after the financial crisis, because of course free markets were

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blamed for that when it was purely a work of

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government to neglect. Maybe it was intentional. Maybe there's a

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little bit of both there. So if you got a

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question for Jonathan or myself, shoot me an email kl

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Atcarrie lets dot com. We'll get you an answer quick. Jonathan,

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appreciate you coming on. We'll have you on again soon.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for having me, and kudos to you and

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congratulations for the long run. Keep up the good work.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Carrie Letz's Financial Survival Network your

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00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,000
solution to today's trying times. For the latest, go to

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Financial Survivalnetwork dot com. Financial Survival Network now more than

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00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:56,559
ever