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Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold,

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Managing editor at The Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever

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email the show, you can do so at radio at

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the Federalist dot com. I would love to hear from

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you today. I am so excited to welcome to the

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Kylie Cast. Lee Fitzpatrick Snead Lee is a fellow at

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the Catholic Association and she is also the author of

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the brand new book infertile but fruitful. In the book,

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Lee walks through her personal story of infertility and what

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it was like going to see a doctor that did

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not align with her Catholic worldview that really tried to

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immediately push her toward IVF. She also talks about then

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pivoting to a different doctor that worked with her wants

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and desires and within her Christian beliefs. She talks about

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adoption and the difference between a desire for a baby

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and a desire for pregnancy. She talks about breastfeeding. She

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talks about her faith and her life and her marriage.

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There is truly something in this book for everyone, especially

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because even if you don't personally struggle with infertility, you

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either know somebody or will know somebody who struggles with this,

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and it's just such a good resource to help understand

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and have more compassion for people who are walking through

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this road that could be so dark and so lonely

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and so difficult. I'm so excited for you to hear

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our conversation. We had a great time. Definitely don't sleep

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on the opportunity to pick up Lee's brand new book.

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It's such an easy and delightful read. I found myself

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crying at parts and laughing at parts. It's very thought provoking,

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and she also offers a lot of helpful practical lessons

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that she's learned along the way that you can implement

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in your life, whether you struggle with infertility or not. So,

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without further ado, please welcome to the show, Lee Fitzpatrick

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sneed Lee, thank you so much for coming on the

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Kylie Cast. It is such a privilege and an honor

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to have.

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Speaker 2: You, Kylie, thank you so much for having me. I'm

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really happy to be here with you today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I was telling Lee right before we started recording

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that because I review so many books and do so

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many interviews with authors on the podcast, often reading a

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review copy of a book means more like heavy skimming

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or speed reading. And I sat down with Lee's book

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and I read it in one sitting and I could

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not put it down. And it was like a full,

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thorough not a speed read. I was just completely engrossed

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by it. At the end of every chapter, you just

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have to keep reading because there's just so much great

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stuff as part of her story. So I don't know

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if there's like a better recommendation to a book than

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one that you just can't put down. So everybody should

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read Lee's book. But yeah, Lee, I don't want to

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give the book away, but can we just start by

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you giving us just kind of a thirty thousand foot

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view of walking us through your story to just kind

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of give people a sense of who you are, where

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you come from, and what brought you to write this book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I met my husband in college freshman year.

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We got married soon after we met. We saw each

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other at church and we you know, it's sort of

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we put off kind of casually having kids because we

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were younger, and you know, we were living in DC

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and sort of that lifestyle, know what, none of our

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friends were even married really at first, and so we

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put it off. And then we really started trying to

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have a baby in earnest and a year went by

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and no baby. And over the years we saw different

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medical treatments at different times. We decided to pursue adoption

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actually simultaneously with trying to look at pregnant, and I

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did some I was in graduate school for philosophy, but

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I left my program with a master's when my first

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son was born, and I eventually got into doing some

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freelance writing and that sort of ebbed and flowed over

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the years. My husband's professor at Notre Dame, and we built,

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we moved, we left DC, we built a life here

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in Indiana. I started working with a Catholic association a

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few years ago, doing more writing and hosting our syndicated

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a radio show, Conversations with Consequences. And I had written

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a couple articles for the National Catholic Register about my

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infertility experience, I think maybe even for National Infertility Week

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or something, and one of them was an open letter

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to those suffering from infertility, and it really resonated. I

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got a lot of messages, a lot of comments, a

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lot of sharing, a couple just really great stories from that.

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You know, I had some friends who actually didn't realize

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were stuffering from fertility that reached out and then that

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sort of blossomed into a really, really very full friendship

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with them. Another young married man was up at night

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searching for answers. He and his wife weren't getting pregnant,

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and they were, you know, sad and not anyone to do,

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and he was just looking and he came across my

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article and then saw my last name and realized that

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he had been a student of my husband's and so

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we've you know, we've maintained a friendship with them too

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after that. So yeah, exactly exactly. And so I had

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a mentor who thought the same thing, and she said, Lee,

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this is your book. And so then I decided I

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put it together. And I was in my late forties.

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It was sort of that time was come. I mean,

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it was closed. But you know, in your brain, you

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kind of to get used to the idea. You have

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to be able to say, I am never going to

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get pregnant, because no one ever told me that, doctor

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has ever said that to me, but they would now

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because I'm fifty and you know, I think I've never

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been pregnant so far. So, you know, being able to

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say that and being like, okay, this is where I

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am now now I can go back. I just you know,

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I just want people to be able to I want

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people to see themselves in a book, because I feel

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like we're kind of unrepresented in all kinds of stuff,

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whether it's nonfiction or fiction or entertainment or you know,

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just culture at large. I mean, you see families with

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biological children everywhere, and or just feelies with children in general,

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and you know, I think that the conversation is getting

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better and more fruitful all the time, and I think

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a lot of people are writing and talking about it,

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which is fantastic. But infertility needs to be needs to

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be something that everyone is you know, a little least

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a little bit fluent in, and it's used to talking

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about and are they aren't uncomfortable talking about it. I

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think that's really what I wanted to do. I wanted

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to sort of like break the ice on a conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think your book does that really well,

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because I think for people who do struggle with infertility,

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this is it's such a great book book for them

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to feel seen and to feel like I'm not alone

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and there are other people who struggle with this, especially

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because you do include other stories besides your own in

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the book that are so different from yours, just to

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give people hope who maybe are in the same struggle.

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But I think it also really helps people who do

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have children, or who are pregnant, or you know, who

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don't suffer from this to kind of understand what that

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road looks like and how to come alongside side somebody

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who struggles with that and be a better friend and

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a better sister or you know, whatever it might be

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to those.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, especially when you say sister, because I think that

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that's who I've heard from a lot, is like I

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didn't know how to talk to my sister about this,

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And especially if you come from a big family and

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maybe all your mother obviously had lots of children, maybe

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your sisters are having lots of children, and you're sort

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of the odd man out. People they want to help

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and they want to be there for you, but they

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don't to make you feel worse and so and oftentimes

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they say nothing, and then you don't know how to

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bring it up, and maybe you're kind of ashamed, and

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so you don't bring it up with them, so no

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one talks, and then everybody just gets kind of lonelier

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and sadder. I think that there's a belief too, when

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you're suffering with infertility that I'm not going to really

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talk about this. I'm just gonna wait it out because

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one day I'm going to get pregnant and that'll be

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the news and that'll be my story and I won't

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have to think about any of this other dark stuff again.

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But you know, you need to be ready for that

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not to happen. And I think it's it's so it's

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you know, it's more it's more common than you think.

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I mean, it's still I think I've heard anything between

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like one in five for one in ten couples. But

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it's again, that could be just a delay that it

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takes more than a year the typical year for somebody

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under thirty five to get pregnant.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, and especially just the loneliness and the

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isolation that comes from that, Like the enemy loves nothing

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more than to isolate us and to make us feel

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like we're alone or you know, or to drive us

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into the dark corners of not opening up about these

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things and not finding people who can mentor us and

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disciple us or even sit with us in our grief.

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And it's such a lonely place to be. And that's

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exactly where he wants us to be.

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Speaker 2: So exactly, And that's when you start feeling that I

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really try to be honest about those dark and raw

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kind of moments when you know you're jealous, you're jealous

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of people, you're you know, you're envious, you're you're resentful.

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You know, it's hard to take joy in other people's joy.

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There's a lot of why me or why not me?

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You know, there's a lot of you get weird thoughts

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with like about your husband, about like he should have

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married somebody else, or you know, like just really dark things.

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I think I can tell the story in the book

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about I remember a couple of times I had a

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dream that my like my fifty year old mom at

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the time, was was pregnant, you know, because like obviously

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everybody can get pregnant except for me, right right, Yeah,

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And so I think that's right. I think you need

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that accompaniment with you know, your friends and I you know,

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I hope that like pastors and you know, seminarians and

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priests and they read it too, so that when and

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they have a couple in their in their plock that

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need this help, that they kind of had that language

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ready to talk to them, or can just share my book?

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Speaker 1: Yes, Yes. One of the things I love about your

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book is that at the end of each chapter, it's

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not it is your story, but it's not just your story.

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You also give really practical tips and like takeaways and advice.

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I don't know what exactly, I don't remember exactly what

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you call it, but they're just like.

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Speaker 2: Lessens along the way.

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Speaker 1: I think lessons along the way, yes, and they're great lessons.

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And one of them from early in the book, you

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talk about how you met your husband when you were

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fairly young and you dated for a few years, but

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you know, when you got married, none of your friends

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were married or had babies, and so it was just

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like the normal thing to do to wait. And I

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think one of the lessons that you give is like,

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you don't have to wait. You know, it's actually good

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to get started early. Can you just speak to like

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the cultural messaging that we get about. You know, you

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don't want to be the first one to have kids

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when all your friends are still out traveling and all

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these things, like you know, what do you think contributes

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to some of that messaging? And maybe talk to somebody

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who is freshly married, like what what do you think

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they should do?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think even as now that I'm the

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parent of a twenty year old, now I can see

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why parents can fall into that trap of sort of

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you know, yes, on paper, this is what we believe,

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and you should. I hope you find your husband and

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you get married in this but you know, you've invested

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money and time into your child's education you want them

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to be proud. You maybe want them to go to

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graduate school, you want them to do this, you want

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and maybe you you know, have a concern that you

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want your daughters to be financially secure and you don't

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want them to take those risks because that's that's your baby,

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and so you're you're protective of them, and so you

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project a little bit that of those expectations onto people.

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I think even though sort of culturally you might be

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totally on board with the early marriage to early babies thing,

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and that's something we do probably without even knowing about.

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I think another thing to consider is that, you know,

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if you really don't want kids yet, maybe it's not

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time to be married yet. I mean, obviously, I really

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I treasure those first couple of years. We really had

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a really fun time. But it's you know, I think

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that we could have also done that will still you know,

254
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going ac courting, you know, but it's again, I mean,

255
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I'm all in favor of I think people put off

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marriage for the same reasons they think, oh, I need

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to do this first, Whereas I mean my husband and

258
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I met when I was nineteen, he was twenty one.

259
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We did a lot of growing up together. I think

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we're glad about that now. We made a lot of

261
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mistakes and the only we are the only two that know.

262
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You know, there's some embarrassing stories and things like that

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to keep it in the vault. And you know, I

264
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think that we were able to because we grew up

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and we grew up differently than we were brought up.

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I mean we we our house is different from the

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houses that we grew up in with divorced parents, and

268
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I was an only child, but we had meeting young.

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We had time to sort of craft and plan for

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the life and to kind of gather information as we

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went along. Yeah. I think it's that addressed the questions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yeah, well, and I think one of the messages,

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like I hadn't really thought about the parental component of it,

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of you know, even the messages that you get from

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your parents where they want certain things for you, that

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maybe would delay some of those things. But also, of

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course we get so much cultural messaging now, and it's

278
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so much secular messaging. But even you know, some people

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believe it's pro life messaging, which I would disagree with,

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and I think you would two that you know, well,

281
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it doesn't really matter when you start trying to have babies,

282
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because you can always freeze your eggs or you can

283
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always pursue IVF. But basically just that there's always a backstuff,

284
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there's always a fallback. Even if things don't work out

285
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for you, you know, there's always a way to remedy that.

286
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And you talk in the book about a couple of

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different doctors that you pursued over the course of your

288
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struggle with infertility, and the first one being one that

289
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really pushed for IVF. Can you talk a little bit

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about your experience with that doctor and kind of like

291
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some of the pitfalls that associated your pursuit in trying

292
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to get answers to your infertility.

293
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, so my husband was actually working as the

294
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General Counsel for the President's Council by Ethics with Leon

295
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cass and under George W. Bush, and he was the

296
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chief drafter of a government of poor cod reproduction and

297
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Responsibility right around the time we were really trying to

298
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get pregnant, and so basically as we went on every

299
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month not being pregnant, he was also every month learning

300
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about something that can go wrong and the different ways

301
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they treat it and the ethical implications of those things.

302
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And so it's just it was like we were being

303
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hit at on all sides, like, yeah, this is the

304
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fertility world. But at the same time, you think, okay,

305
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because he met with you know, infertility associations and things

306
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like that, he knew the name Simplas. You know, we

307
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lived in DC, we had access to a lot of doctors.

308
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This doctor, I think, had been like featured in Washingtonian

309
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magazine and everything. And we're thinking, okay, well he probably

310
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does some stuff we don't agree with, but he's really good.

311
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And again, you think, I'm in my twenties. This has

312
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got to be an easy fix. Go the great doctor,

313
00:14:57,399 --> 00:14:59,879
you get in, get out right fix it's going to be.

314
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And so we went and we thought we were armed

315
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with our will be called like our Catholic and fertility playbook.

316
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We thought we'll write the rules. And he just he

317
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wasn't having it. I mean, he told us all the time,

318
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you know, I'm a cradle Catholic. I don't see what

319
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the big deal is. And you know, he's like, I'd

320
00:15:17,519 --> 00:15:19,960
really like to enroll you in my IVF program. Enroll

321
00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:22,039
me in the program. Because I was like twenty six,

322
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,639
twenty seven, I think at the time, So you know,

323
00:15:24,799 --> 00:15:28,240
I was great for success rates? Yeah right, maybe maybe,

324
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I mean, you know, who knows.

325
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,320
Speaker 1: But how long did you see him before he expressed

326
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an interest in enrolling you in IBF?

327
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Speaker 2: Like was that that right off the bat? And so

328
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we had to kind of like see, like, hey, can

329
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,759
you try it? Can we do some more diagnostic tests,

330
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you know, like X rays and stuff, and and so

331
00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:49,759
it kind of humored us thinking that eventually we'd crack.

332
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I think it's what they do because every month when

333
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we'd have a meeting after, you know, we'd sort of like,

334
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you know, what's a well, I can't think of the word,

335
00:16:00,879 --> 00:16:02,480
but he didn't really want to, but he gave us

336
00:16:02,519 --> 00:16:05,159
these kind of band aid treatments. Not really no, that

337
00:16:05,159 --> 00:16:06,799
band aid treatment, that's not really what I'm looking for.

338
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,159
The word I'm looking for is like he was trying

339
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to pacify us until we could get until we just

340
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would agree to do what he wanted to do. Yes,

341
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and sorry for that word, jumble, You're good the uh

342
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you know, we go in, he'd be like, okay, so

343
00:16:21,559 --> 00:16:23,000
what do you think now, what do you think now

344
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this medicine is really not working for you? Let's do IBF.

345
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Let's do IBF. And I think that was about maybe

346
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like four or five months in and the we're like,

347
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you know, we told you, no, that's not what we're

348
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going to do. You know, is there something else? You know?

349
00:16:39,799 --> 00:16:43,679
And uh, he got so enraged and frustrated with us.

350
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He pointed back to his lab, saying, I'm creating life

351
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back there, not destroying it. And uh, were.

352
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Speaker 1: You just so taken aback?

353
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Speaker 2: Like I don't even know, I'm having a reaction right

354
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now just remembering it was awful, and I think this

355
00:16:59,919 --> 00:17:01,759
is the person that's supposed to be like caring for

356
00:17:01,799 --> 00:17:05,079
you your body, especially something so intimate is your fertility.

357
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,720
So my husband grabbed my hand, we walked out. I

358
00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:09,759
don't even think we checked out at the desk, mind,

359
00:17:09,799 --> 00:17:10,720
we just never went back.

360
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

361
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Speaker 2: And the weird sort of anecdotal part of it is,

362
00:17:13,559 --> 00:17:17,680
and I do try to make great efforts to not

363
00:17:17,799 --> 00:17:21,000
conflate infertility and adoption, because I think there too, you know,

364
00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:22,839
you might have a calling to adoption, you might not

365
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:25,039
be infertile, may be infertile and not called to adoption.

366
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,960
But about nine months actually walked out of that office,

367
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my son and my fotus was born.

368
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,359
Speaker 1: That's so redemptive, just beautiful. Yeah, and it's just so

369
00:17:35,519 --> 00:17:38,519
crazy to hear that story, like, you know, because you

370
00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:41,720
think there's probably a lot more women who well, there's

371
00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:44,359
plenty of women who see no ethical qualm with IVF

372
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,119
in the second the doctor you know recommends it, especially

373
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because so much of unexplained infertility is just unexplored infertility.

374
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,400
Not all of it, of course, but if you're being

375
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,160
pushed toward IVF the moment you walk into a fertility clinic,

376
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,680
that's clearly not something that they're exploring. And just the

377
00:17:58,759 --> 00:18:00,240
number of women who are just put on to this

378
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,680
cash cow convey or belt of IVF and they don't

379
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,640
see anything wrong with it, and many of them then

380
00:18:04,759 --> 00:18:06,559
do see something wrong with it later down the road

381
00:18:06,599 --> 00:18:09,119
and have lots of regrets about it. But just those women,

382
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,400
And then you have the few that you know are

383
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,759
seeking real, real treatment, a real answer for their infertility,

384
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,799
and they know for a fact, no, we are not

385
00:18:16,799 --> 00:18:17,960
going to do this, We're not going to do this.

386
00:18:18,039 --> 00:18:20,039
You walk out of that clinic. How many other women

387
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,400
walk in there with a vague notion of no, we

388
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,759
don't want to pursue IVF, But they face that kind

389
00:18:24,759 --> 00:18:26,680
of pressure and that kind of pushback and just that

390
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,960
persistence and anger from a doctor that's supposed to be

391
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,079
caring for you, and just I mean, that is so

392
00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:35,440
much pressure. And yeah, you know, especially people who are

393
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:41,960
not well catechised or not you know, not not theologically sound.

394
00:18:42,079 --> 00:18:44,799
I don't know like how little pushback it would take

395
00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:47,039
to cave to a doctor that's that persistent.

396
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,920
Speaker 2: And yeah, because it's really really tempting. You go in there.

397
00:18:52,079 --> 00:18:56,400
The walls are plastered with baby pictures. There are pregnant

398
00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,240
women everywhere, and you think you try to eat, you know,

399
00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,559
you in those you know, late at night when you're

400
00:19:02,599 --> 00:19:05,000
kind of crazy in and out of sleep, you start

401
00:19:05,039 --> 00:19:07,759
thinking like, what if we just did one embryo, what

402
00:19:07,839 --> 00:19:12,000
if just too you know, no extras, We wouldn't selectively reduce,

403
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,079
you know, all these things you shruy to make these

404
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:15,200
is could it be okay?

405
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:15,559
Speaker 1: You know?

406
00:19:16,559 --> 00:19:18,640
Speaker 2: And it's tough. And again that's again why you need

407
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,480
that support, Why you need to have your family and

408
00:19:20,519 --> 00:19:23,039
your loved ones around you so that you're not dealing

409
00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,319
with those sort of temptations alone. Because if you're already

410
00:19:26,319 --> 00:19:31,160
dealing with your infertility in secrecy, I think it's not easy.

411
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,559
It's not hard to imagine doing IBF also in secrecy,

412
00:19:34,599 --> 00:19:37,119
maybe because you're community, you're also surrounded by people who

413
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,960
don't You want to do IVF, but you think you

414
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,640
just do it and then nobody knows, and I never

415
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:42,640
have to think about that again.

416
00:19:43,599 --> 00:19:45,640
Speaker 1: And it's just those thoughts are So that's always where

417
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,200
the pro life mind goes, right, because it's you, You

418
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,119
so badly desired for people to be helped who are

419
00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:52,759
struggling with this, but to be helped in a way

420
00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:55,920
that doesn't violate our consciences and doesn't violate our our

421
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,240
view of the sanctity of life. And I just had

422
00:19:58,279 --> 00:20:02,240
a really good conversation with Katie Faust recently about IVF specifically,

423
00:20:02,279 --> 00:20:04,279
and just for talking about the fact that like, even

424
00:20:04,319 --> 00:20:06,000
if this is what you desire, if you talk to

425
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,799
an IVF fertility doctor about these desires, they won't even

426
00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:13,079
do them. Like they won't even let you do a

427
00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,440
cycle with just you know, one embryo or two embryos,

428
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,000
because they need you to come back for more, They

429
00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:20,359
need you to have embryos frozen there. Like it is

430
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,480
such a racket. And so it's just it's just heartbreaking

431
00:20:24,519 --> 00:20:30,119
because it's such an exploitative process, and you know, people

432
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,319
are in their most vulnerable state and just praying on

433
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,480
that good God given desire to bear children.

434
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:38,799
Speaker 2: And yeah, one hundred percent. And I think you got

435
00:20:39,279 --> 00:20:43,000
hit on this a little bit ago about the not

436
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,200
getting to these root causes. And so that's why it's

437
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,759
really heartening to see the proliferation of these restorative reproductive

438
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:56,400
medicine doctors and necrotechnology doctors being trained by doctor Hilder's

439
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,400
and Nebraska and you know, or just even people who

440
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,160
advertise themselves like I'm a doctor, I'm also a man

441
00:21:04,279 --> 00:21:07,480
or woman of faith and we can work on this together.

442
00:21:08,279 --> 00:21:12,319
I talked to one person who had helped actually with

443
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,079
a different part of my book, and they had she

444
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,000
and her husband were having some problems that she couldn't

445
00:21:19,039 --> 00:21:23,200
find anyone to help with conventional doctors. Even some of

446
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,039
the restorative medicine doctors weren't able to help her. But

447
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:32,519
what she found was a Jewish practice. And while they

448
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,079
had no problem doing these two doctors had no problems

449
00:21:36,079 --> 00:21:38,680
with IVF, and they suggested it a couple of times.

450
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,880
They were also very strong in their faith, and so

451
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,799
they respected my friend's views too, and so they were

452
00:21:45,839 --> 00:21:47,440
able to actually just successfully treat her and I think

453
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:48,200
she has poor children.

454
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,400
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, that makes all the difference is finding a

455
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,559
provider that shares your values and even if they don't

456
00:21:52,599 --> 00:21:55,920
share them, respects them from me. That respect. Yes, that's

457
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,880
so important. I was actually going to ask you about

458
00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:05,079
napro next and your alternate fertility treatment seeking with doctor

459
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,359
Hilder's and can you just explain more in detail what

460
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,319
napro technology is and like what the Creton model is.

461
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 2: Sure, I mean this is going to be you know,

462
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,559
just like the lay the lay woman's explanation. There are

463
00:22:18,599 --> 00:22:20,079
lots of people out there who can get into the

464
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,039
nitty gritty details with you. It's a sympto well, it's

465
00:22:24,039 --> 00:22:29,400
it's symptomatic charting and you you we have these different

466
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,599
stickers that indicate different kinds of body signs for your

467
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:38,079
fertility and the when you are under the care of

468
00:22:38,079 --> 00:22:41,440
an appro position, you'll for infertility, you'll have like blood

469
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,920
work done and there'll be adjustments to you know, hormone levels, things,

470
00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:49,759
things that are you should have going for you anyway.

471
00:22:50,079 --> 00:22:52,000
In fact, like lots of young women are now learning

472
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,880
the method early to figure out what's going on, like

473
00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,000
why is my PMS so bad? You know. I actually

474
00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:06,079
they have a friend who's an pro practitioner and also

475
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,200
practices it, and she actually detected through charting her own

476
00:23:10,279 --> 00:23:11,319
precancer as cells.

477
00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 1: That is crazy.

478
00:23:14,079 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 2: I mean, it's amazing. The ways that this affects the

479
00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:20,039
quality of your life are just so far reaching, so

480
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,519
far beyond even just being able to achieve pregnancy when

481
00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:24,079
you can't.

482
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,079
Speaker 1: And I think sech to rebuke to the other way

483
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,279
of just putting you on this quick, fixed method, Like

484
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,640
you know, there's so many underlying things in help that

485
00:23:33,839 --> 00:23:35,960
just they need to be addressed. And you know, I

486
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,079
even think like now so many women use and men

487
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,960
use these URR rings, which is obviously different, but that

488
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,200
also gives you so many, so many indicators of your

489
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,000
body and like the way that it can tell you

490
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,759
you're probably going to get sick tomorrow because of what

491
00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:51,759
your body temperature is, or like you know, something that

492
00:23:51,799 --> 00:23:54,359
seems a little off, and it's just like your body

493
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,240
gives so many signs about everything, and so tracking those

494
00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:02,359
is just such a holistic way to approach something that

495
00:24:02,599 --> 00:24:07,160
ye does have such distinct underlying causes. So I'm sorry, totally, no, you.

496
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,039
Speaker 2: Are know, I love it. I love how excited you are.

497
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,839
But the and there's a real I think generational shift

498
00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:15,200
that's happening too, that people are turning to that. You know,

499
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,079
people are throwing away their hormonal birth control pills and

500
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,039
things like that, respecting their bodies more. Which makes sense

501
00:24:21,079 --> 00:24:24,519
when you think about like macha drinking and you know,

502
00:24:24,839 --> 00:24:28,279
yogilates and all these other things that we're doing for ourselves.

503
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,920
Why why are we putting these you know, chemicals into

504
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,680
our bodies all the time too? But I do think

505
00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:36,160
I think that part of it is that big business

506
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,359
thing we just talked about. I mean a lot of

507
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,880
these strategies, a lot of them take time, you know,

508
00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:45,559
to heal if you're really addressing these underlying root causes.

509
00:24:46,039 --> 00:24:48,519
And I think the conventional doctors often want you on

510
00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:51,359
the schedule and once you pass, you know, the one

511
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,240
year mark, and then maybe you've done. I mean, if

512
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,680
you're willing to pay. I think a lot of doctors

513
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,880
will let you try a VF until you know the

514
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,160
money runs out. But you know, but I think that

515
00:25:01,279 --> 00:25:04,559
you know, I know women who have really younger women

516
00:25:05,079 --> 00:25:07,079
who have stuck with it for years and have just

517
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,680
continued seeing doctors and trying different things, doing things like diet,

518
00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:13,039
which obviously is not going to affect you your next cycle,

519
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,279
you know what I mean, Like that's going to take time, right,

520
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,559
and flame inflammation, all these different things, and you know,

521
00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:22,720
five six, late, six years later they're having healthy pregnancy.

522
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,680
But because you're not on that fast track. You know,

523
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,559
this artificial timeline that people create, right, and again, if

524
00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:33,440
it is, if it's true, if you've been to your

525
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,240
own like you know, feelings, or maybe you didn't meet

526
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,240
the right guy or woman until you were older, yeah,

527
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,279
you're under the clock a little bit, and you need

528
00:25:43,319 --> 00:25:49,079
to respect that. But these Yeah, the idea that it's

529
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,319
it's over for you and there's only this one solution

530
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,599
is just it's maddening.

531
00:25:56,319 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: Can you talk about you you discussed in the book

532
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,400
the difference between the desire for pregnancy and the desire

533
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,559
for a baby. Can you explain what you mean by

534
00:26:04,559 --> 00:26:06,960
that distinction and kind of how that manifested for you?

535
00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 2: And that's actually it's really good timing with that question

536
00:26:09,759 --> 00:26:11,400
because I was just sort of thinking it. I don't

537
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:12,839
know if I would have had it in me to

538
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,720
stick with it. Five, six, seven years. I really wanted

539
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,440
to be a mom with a baby right now. And

540
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,440
I think some people, some people you know, have the

541
00:26:25,839 --> 00:26:28,119
have the metal to go the distance, you know, and

542
00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:33,079
can do it. And but I uh, I never you know,

543
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,279
we never stopped trying to have even if we weren't

544
00:26:35,319 --> 00:26:37,359
under care. We never stopped like being open to life

545
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:42,799
and really wanting to be pregnant. But it's uh, once

546
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,480
that door opened and we saw that, I mean really,

547
00:26:46,519 --> 00:26:52,559
I had a real clear message you're an adoptive mom,

548
00:26:53,559 --> 00:26:56,640
and you know, yeah, I knew it, but then he

549
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:02,759
told me so uh yeah, and it just it was

550
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,400
it just was so it was so clear to us

551
00:27:04,519 --> 00:27:07,559
that was our vocation that you know, if we had

552
00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:09,680
other babies, that was fine, but this is something that

553
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,920
we could do and we wanted to do. And yeah,

554
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,759
and so that made it easier for me. I do

555
00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:20,920
think that you know, other people really want to experience pregnancy,

556
00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:23,400
and I do. I mean, I still I still warn

557
00:27:23,759 --> 00:27:30,519
that idea. But you know, in the end, I just

558
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,640
I just I wasn't hesitant to jump on the adoption

559
00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:37,519
train pretty early, but it was my first time was

560
00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:39,559
three when we saw doctor Hilgers just to sort of

561
00:27:39,559 --> 00:27:43,240
put people okay, but then the timeline, yeah.

562
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, just the clarity that your call was to parenthood

563
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,759
if not to pregnancy. Yes, yeaheah, yeah, Okay, let's talk

564
00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:53,279
a little bit about the trip that you took. Was

565
00:27:53,319 --> 00:27:55,880
it to London for six Yeah, yeah.

566
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 2: It's yeah. I taught in the London program and Notre

567
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,960
Dame for six months, and we decided to take a

568
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,039
break from our treatments with doctor Hilger's just because it's

569
00:28:04,079 --> 00:28:06,400
like a lot of medicine and needles and stuff, and

570
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,519
it just felt like I already felt being in Indiana

571
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,880
away from him in Nebraska was already kind of far enough.

572
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,559
Putting an ocean between it seemed like too much. And

573
00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:18,480
then you just have like a suitcase full of needles

574
00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:20,440
and whatever. And we thought, okay, great six months, let's

575
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,240
just take a little break. And the needles really do

576
00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:23,559
get to you. I mean, it got to a point

577
00:28:23,559 --> 00:28:25,759
where I think all the blonde ladies out there will

578
00:28:25,799 --> 00:28:29,759
understand this, that even just getting foils for highlights was

579
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,200
I was just so sick and being like messed with

580
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,400
all the time, you know that I just it was

581
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,160
nice to just have a break. And we really had

582
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,559
a nice time. We know, we just had our first son,

583
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,559
he was four, he turned five, and we were there.

584
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,839
We went to the theater, we went to restaurants, we

585
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,640
did lots of cultural things. You know, we traveled to

586
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,599
Italy for two weeks to see friends there. It was

587
00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:57,440
just really, really great. And when we were ready to

588
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,720
go home, you know, we're sort of you know, making

589
00:28:59,759 --> 00:29:02,079
sure or you know, our son was enrolled for school

590
00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:03,839
the next year. And because it was like May June,

591
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,000
I guess, and everything was in line for us to

592
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,440
come home with a dog sitter or whatever, i'd oh,

593
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,279
I should probably call doctor Hilder's and let him know,

594
00:29:11,559 --> 00:29:13,519
you know, coming home, and what what do I need

595
00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:14,839
to do to get started back up again? Do I

596
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,680
need to go get blood work done? And my husband said,

597
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,599
you know, maybe let's just not let's let's just adopt again.

598
00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:28,519
And it was almost like he gave me my permission

599
00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:31,519
to give myself permission to stop, because you do feel

600
00:29:31,519 --> 00:29:33,279
that pressure like I got to keep doing this. I've

601
00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:36,440
got to keep doing this, yeah, because it's you know,

602
00:29:36,519 --> 00:29:38,079
it's going to work. And we got a seventy five

603
00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:40,359
percent chance of success, you know, that's what you know,

604
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,839
he predicted for us, and it was such a relief

605
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,200
to be like, okay, you know, but again like not

606
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,519
forever off the table. I was, you know, thought about

607
00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:50,759
it again a couple of times, but it just didn't

608
00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:52,680
make sense for us, you know. I think we thought,

609
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,279
if it happens, it happens. But if not, we know

610
00:29:55,359 --> 00:29:59,160
that this is a way that we can be parents,

611
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,559
and and it works for us. And so again we

612
00:30:03,599 --> 00:30:07,440
got home and it wasn't very long before we got

613
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,400
our home study done. And so we got home, say

614
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:16,400
like June of twenty ten, and in March twenty eleven,

615
00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:19,960
we got a call from our agency saying, hey, we

616
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,279
got all your paperwork, background checks, you know, criminal records,

617
00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:26,119
blah blah blah. Everything looks good. We'll let you know,

618
00:30:26,359 --> 00:30:27,960
you know what's going on with your profile. Every month,

619
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,480
we'll check in with you. But by the way, there's

620
00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:31,480
a woman who's expecting twins at the end of this month.

621
00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:35,319
Are you open to being considered by her? And we're like,

622
00:30:35,319 --> 00:30:37,319
oh sure, and we're thinking great, this is great. We're

623
00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:41,160
getting a little nipple now. Definitely, this is our year

624
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,319
we'll get a baby. And then the next day she

625
00:30:43,359 --> 00:30:45,799
wanted to talk to us, and then the next day

626
00:30:45,839 --> 00:30:47,200
we were going to take it out till lunch, and

627
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,880
then she was admitted to the hospital and that night

628
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:49,640
the twins were born.

629
00:30:50,279 --> 00:30:51,039
Speaker 1: That is so cool.

630
00:30:51,039 --> 00:30:54,359
Speaker 2: Well that's about forty eight hours. Yeah, we still haven't

631
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,000
quite recovered fourteen years later, and was fir teen years later.

632
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,319
Speaker 1: You just don't know where you ever will no, oh.

633
00:31:00,279 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 3: No, no, Well, Washington's housing fixes backfire. The Watchdot on Wall

634
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,240
Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack

635
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,599
the connection between politics and the economy and how it

636
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,079
affects your wallet. Trump plans on purchasing billions and mortgage

637
00:31:21,119 --> 00:31:24,279
backed securities, as well as allowing people to use retirement

638
00:31:24,359 --> 00:31:27,279
to make down payments. Does adding more cash bring down

639
00:31:27,319 --> 00:31:29,720
the price or add fuel to the fire. Whether it's

640
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,920
happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting

641
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:32,599
you financially.

642
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: Be informed.

643
00:31:33,279 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 3: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris

644
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:44,640
Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

645
00:31:46,599 --> 00:31:48,799
Speaker 1: There was this passage from your book where you're talking

646
00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:54,240
about that and just yeah, I'll just read this passage

647
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,720
because it was so beautiful to me, often bleary eyed

648
00:31:56,839 --> 00:31:58,799
and with your first son right there in the mix.

649
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,880
We three gazed at our too sweet and snugly little

650
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,400
miracles and new just new with every bone and our

651
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,519
tired bodies that leaving the needles behind and instead preparing

652
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:10,200
ourselves for another adoption was exactly what we had been

653
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,319
meant to do. I'm sitting on my couch reading this

654
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,319
by the fire, literally just crying. It was just so

655
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,519
beautiful and I just I just love love that and

656
00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:22,200
the way that your husband gave you permission, you know

657
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,440
that you felt just that relief and that permission to

658
00:32:24,599 --> 00:32:27,640
just yeah, give your body a break. And I also

659
00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:31,160
just love, like you know, inherent in your story in

660
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,000
London is just also the beauty and the importance of

661
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,559
the fact that when you're going through struggles, struggles like this,

662
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,079
because when you start trying to get pregnant, that becomes

663
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,359
kind of your sole focus, especially if it doesn't happen

664
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,920
right away, like that is the only thing you are,

665
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,359
like one track mind, this is what we're doing. And

666
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,720
just the importance of you know, your marriage to your spouse,

667
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,559
it will still always be the most most important relationship

668
00:32:54,599 --> 00:32:57,519
you have, and it's so important to prioritize that and

669
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,920
just like the beauty of having that time to reconnect

670
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,119
away from the constant bombardment and pressure and feeling of

671
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:06,839
this is what we're doing. We got a track, we

672
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,680
got to do this and that, and just there's so

673
00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:10,839
much redemption and beauty even in that part of the story.

674
00:33:10,839 --> 00:33:12,519
And it's like there was not there was not a

675
00:33:12,519 --> 00:33:14,359
conception in that part of the story, and still it

676
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,640
was so beautiful and redemptive. And I mean, I love

677
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:19,519
the title of your book for that reason too, because

678
00:33:19,559 --> 00:33:23,680
throughout every page it's just like, yes, it is about infertility,

679
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,000
but it is also such a fruitful story. And I

680
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,240
just I was just overwhelmed by that over and over

681
00:33:28,359 --> 00:33:29,119
throughout the whole book.

682
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: So oh, I'm so glad because that really is the message,

683
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,079
I think, and I think again, I think it's one

684
00:33:34,119 --> 00:33:37,480
of the reasons why I was called felt like I

685
00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:40,440
needed to write write it now is that, you know,

686
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,160
I want people to look at our family and say, like, oh, hey,

687
00:33:44,119 --> 00:33:47,160
they never got pregnant. You know, it's not so bad

688
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,440
what they've got going on there, like that's a happy life.

689
00:33:49,559 --> 00:33:52,599
And yeah, and again that's why I wanted to include

690
00:33:52,599 --> 00:33:54,759
other women's stories too, Like I to call it the

691
00:33:54,759 --> 00:33:59,680
other flavors of infertility, especially the story of you know

692
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:02,880
who she and her husband don't have children, because there

693
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,200
are lots of women with infertility who you know, don't

694
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,519
have a calling to adopt or for whatever reason, don't

695
00:34:08,519 --> 00:34:12,039
adopt children. And I think that culturally, but in Christian

696
00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:14,719
Catholic circles, sometimes we don't know, we don't know what

697
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,159
to do with them, so again we don't talk to

698
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,119
them about it, you know, and it's kind of like, well,

699
00:34:19,119 --> 00:34:21,440
they must not care that they were infertile because they

700
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,239
didn't adopt, or do you don't mean like we were

701
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,960
little asceptitions you can make. And I know because even

702
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,840
though I am on the infertile side, I make assumptions

703
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,159
like that about people all the time. You know, it's

704
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:34,760
just human nature. You just want to kind of wonder about,

705
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,840
you know, s about people's business, and of course you

706
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,519
can't ask because that's like the most intimate thing ever.

707
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,719
But I think that when we think about when we

708
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:47,400
reduce fruitfulness to just baby, you know, we forget about

709
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,800
like the fruitfulness of like you know, our Catholic priests

710
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,880
are celibate, they're fruitful, you know, like it's not just

711
00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:57,599
married couples, and after you're done raising your children, you're

712
00:34:57,599 --> 00:35:01,039
still called to be fruitful single person, you're calls it

713
00:35:01,119 --> 00:35:03,480
be fruitful. So I think it's it's really easy to

714
00:35:03,559 --> 00:35:07,039
think that your purpose in life, you know, your God

715
00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:11,480
given purpose is not is in your failing because you're

716
00:35:11,519 --> 00:35:14,679
not having a baby. And to open up our idea

717
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,039
of what real fruitfulness can mean, whether that means hospitality

718
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,400
or god parents, or you're a writer, or your other

719
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,199
gifts in the world, I mean anything, any I feel

720
00:35:23,199 --> 00:35:26,559
like it's it's not even you can't even really get

721
00:35:26,559 --> 00:35:29,679
examples because you don't know what what you what your

722
00:35:29,679 --> 00:35:32,360
fruits will be, if there'll be fruits, and you know

723
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,800
what I mean, you don't know until you've shared them, right,

724
00:35:35,119 --> 00:35:37,559
You've shared these things and then they bear they bear

725
00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:41,280
even more fruit. So I think that that's that's a

726
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,199
really important thing to remember, is to really think about

727
00:35:44,199 --> 00:35:48,960
people who choose not or who don't adopt, and we

728
00:35:49,039 --> 00:35:50,840
still need to embrace them, and we still have to

729
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,360
assume that they also suffered too.

730
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 1: Mm yes, yeah, I.

731
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,039
Speaker 2: Don't want them to go forgotten because it's easy. Again,

732
00:35:58,119 --> 00:35:59,960
like I think, like, oh, it's great, they were infertile

733
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,679
and then they adopt to babies, and that's great, but

734
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,880
you know it's not life can be really great even

735
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:08,559
without children. Yes, no, but and it's hard because every

736
00:36:08,679 --> 00:36:10,320
every time we get reminded that we don't get to

737
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,639
choose what happens with our lives. That's hard. And this

738
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,440
is a big one, you know, especially you know, for women,

739
00:36:15,519 --> 00:36:20,920
especially I think for Christian women. But yeah, it's it's

740
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,559
it's it's a it's yeah a thing. Yeah.

741
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,199
Speaker 1: I have a number of Christian female friends who badly

742
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,159
desire to be moms and wives, and they still are

743
00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:33,320
having trouble with the first step of just like, yeah,

744
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,519
really struggling with singleness. And and yet I look at

745
00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:40,079
their lives and there is so much fruitfulness there and

746
00:36:40,159 --> 00:36:44,360
so much of that does come from still the motherhood,

747
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,039
the God given motherhood instinct and gift that women have

748
00:36:48,079 --> 00:36:52,079
been given. And you you write in your book, even

749
00:36:52,119 --> 00:36:55,679
if infertile, quote, our vocation to motherhood is no mistake.

750
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,840
And I think even for women who you know, it's

751
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,679
not just for women who are in fertile but they

752
00:37:00,679 --> 00:37:03,079
are adoptive mothers. It's also for women who are still

753
00:37:03,119 --> 00:37:06,320
single and desiring marriage and motherhood who yes, fulfill that

754
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,480
role and are just they're using their God given biological

755
00:37:10,519 --> 00:37:13,639
gifts to motherhood. Long and moore, they will even be

756
00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:15,199
wives and mothers. And I thought that was a really

757
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,039
beautiful part of the book also as I watch women

758
00:37:18,159 --> 00:37:19,440
walk that out right now.

759
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you can mother your friend. I mean, yes,

760
00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:24,920
we have this capacity for motherhood. That and motherhood again,

761
00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:28,400
isn't just about raising your own biological children. It's about

762
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,440
the way you approach the world. It's the way you

763
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,639
know you just what's what you bring to the workplace.

764
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,039
I mean, it's it's sort of it's everything, it's who

765
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:38,000
we are. And so I think that it's a when

766
00:37:38,119 --> 00:37:39,880
I tell you, when you're in the midst of it

767
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,079
and when you're in the depths of despair, it's these

768
00:37:43,159 --> 00:37:46,119
kind of thoughts they kind of skim right off, you know,

769
00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:47,639
the surface.

770
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:48,119
Speaker 1: Right.

771
00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:50,559
Speaker 2: So I was thinking, actually thinking about our podcast today

772
00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:53,440
and think about what we might talk about. And I

773
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,519
know that I say in the book that I wrote

774
00:37:55,519 --> 00:37:57,719
it for like the twenty year old, twenty five year

775
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,639
old me, the book I wish I had in my

776
00:37:59,679 --> 00:38:02,800
twenty but I don't even I'm not sure I would

777
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,280
have been able to sort of stick with it, you know,

778
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,199
I think I don't, you know, so that makes me

779
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:09,920
sort of rethink that. I mean, I do think it's

780
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,239
it's it's important to think about a life that doesn't,

781
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,000
you know, your fertility journey doesn't end in pregnancy. And

782
00:38:16,079 --> 00:38:18,639
I think that's good. I like to prove that we're

783
00:38:18,679 --> 00:38:21,199
a positive example of you know what that looks like.

784
00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:26,880
But you know, I think I think that, Uh, it's

785
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,920
really hard to listen. It's really hard to listen to anyone,

786
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,000
you know, unless it's someone calling you from the doctor's

787
00:38:33,039 --> 00:38:36,320
office telling you that your blood test shows that you're pregnant,

788
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,440
you know, and so and again and again. That goes

789
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,199
back to what we talked about right at the at

790
00:38:41,199 --> 00:38:44,559
the start of it, you know, taking this out of

791
00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:48,000
the shadows, talking about it, writing about it, letting everyone

792
00:38:48,039 --> 00:38:51,159
know about it, people understanding, people understanding what IVF is,

793
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,000
what that means. Why don't I just do IVF like

794
00:38:54,199 --> 00:38:56,039
people have a kind of a working knowledge of that,

795
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:00,719
and you know, and also can can just empathy thighs more.

796
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,960
You can understand like what's that like? What do my

797
00:39:03,039 --> 00:39:05,679
children mean to me? What would that have been like

798
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,440
if I hadn't been able to get pregnant, you know.

799
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,559
And then also I think too on our side, it's

800
00:39:11,119 --> 00:39:14,440
our side, the infertility side. You know, it's can you

801
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,440
can get a little edge to you after a while.

802
00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:20,000
And I think it's important to see, you know, the

803
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,480
crosses that other people carry. For instance, I mean, you know,

804
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,880
I know a couple who you know, they just sort

805
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,400
of like wave to each other across the room and

806
00:39:29,679 --> 00:39:33,519
they have another child, and you know, that's been a

807
00:39:33,639 --> 00:39:35,920
kind of a cross for them that sort of like

808
00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:41,239
mega uber fertility financially for their other children, you know,

809
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,239
for her body. You know, when you get after eight kids,

810
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,079
you know, it's like it's a big thing. And so

811
00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:48,119
I think that we too have we realize it. Just

812
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,719
everyone has their cross to carry, and they look different

813
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,320
and they feel different. And I think if we just

814
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,599
you know, if we don't like sort of rank them

815
00:39:58,039 --> 00:39:59,639
is worse or I think that I have it worse

816
00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:01,239
than you, or you have it worse than me, or

817
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,360
anything like that, I think it's just you know, we

818
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,480
just need to come together, get off our phones.

819
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and try to make fewer assumptions. Because you're

820
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,039
right than that is a natural thing to do. But

821
00:40:11,519 --> 00:40:13,840
it's just it doesn't help us, and it doesn't help

822
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,360
the people we're making assumptions about it's so hard not

823
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:16,719
to do.

824
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 2: But oh it's so hard. Yeah, I know, you can

825
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:21,559
write their whole story just staring at the back of

826
00:40:21,559 --> 00:40:22,239
their head and perch.

827
00:40:24,119 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: How bad is that?

828
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 2: It's bad so many levels? Is that? Yes?

829
00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:27,760
Speaker 1: Yes?

830
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:28,119
Speaker 2: Yeah?

831
00:40:28,119 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 1: And social media doesn't help with that either, because then

832
00:40:30,039 --> 00:40:31,440
we think we know more about people than we do,

833
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,679
which is dangerous, a dangerous game. So this is totally

834
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,920
changing gears. And maybe this just shows my absolute ignorance

835
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,719
as it comes to these issues. But I can you

836
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,119
share what it was like breastfeeding your son, Like I

837
00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:49,280
didn't know that you could breastfeed an adopted baby after

838
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,760
not having just given birth. Like I should have knowne

839
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,719
that because I knew you could like induce slactation, But

840
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,159
I just I'd never connected those dots and that part

841
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,079
just fascinated me. So I would love if you could

842
00:40:59,079 --> 00:40:59,960
share a little bit about that.

843
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I have this friend who makes a

844
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,480
couple of appearances in the book. She's actually one of

845
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,760
the people who has sent me a photo of her

846
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,079
in the book. She's already got it in the mail.

847
00:41:12,159 --> 00:41:14,679
She was a friend of mine. She had a little

848
00:41:14,679 --> 00:41:16,480
bit of trouble getting pregnant too, and so we had

849
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,119
sort of like, you know, talked about that together. But

850
00:41:20,159 --> 00:41:24,280
then she did get pregnant, and she was a nurse midwife,

851
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,239
and you know, she was a big fan of nursing

852
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,599
and breastfeeding, and you know, I think it really was

853
00:41:32,639 --> 00:41:35,480
her when I think she had told me about it,

854
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,960
and I thought that sounds great. But again, think you

855
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,920
think you have all this time, like you think adoption

856
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,599
is going to take a long time, which is sort

857
00:41:42,599 --> 00:41:45,519
of why we started pursuing it almost immediately before we

858
00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:49,559
even thought about seeing doctor Hilter's. But you know, with

859
00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:51,559
our first it didn't really take very much time at all.

860
00:41:51,559 --> 00:41:54,320
And I had about a week to get ready, two

861
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,239
weeks maybe, And I thought, Okay, I'm going to shelve

862
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,880
this breastfeeding things I can't on top of everything else.

863
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:02,079
You know, I've got this DuPont Circle apartment, I've got

864
00:42:02,079 --> 00:42:04,199
to make get ready for a baby. I have nothing.

865
00:42:06,599 --> 00:42:08,840
So she said to me, she was like, you know, Lee,

866
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:10,920
you know you would have wanted to do it. You

867
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,719
would have wanted to breastfeed your baby. That was a

868
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,719
thing that you liked, And but why don't you just

869
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,119
try Why don't you just go downtown to the Breastfeeding

870
00:42:19,159 --> 00:42:23,000
Center of Washington and talk to a lactation consultant And

871
00:42:23,039 --> 00:42:28,239
I'll tell you what listeners lactation consultants love. When adoptive

872
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,880
moms when a breastfeed, it's like they're like Mount Everest.

873
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:38,639
And again, I think there's a lot of different ways

874
00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:41,320
to do it. I didn't have a lot of time,

875
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,119
and so I used what's called a supplemental nursing system

876
00:42:46,159 --> 00:42:48,960
and SNS and some others use it when they have

877
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,760
a low milk supply. And it's kind of like a

878
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,920
juice box sized little canteen and you can hang in

879
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,400
around your neck with a string, and then you have

880
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,760
a catheter that meets up with your nipple and the

881
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,320
baby when the baby latches on. It's the tiniest, tiniest

882
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,400
little tube that takes the a formula or donated but

883
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,079
breast milk out of the canteen thing, and that it

884
00:43:11,119 --> 00:43:15,199
also stimulates the prolactin in your body to then produce.

885
00:43:15,199 --> 00:43:19,519
And I also took like supporting herbs and another medication

886
00:43:19,679 --> 00:43:23,159
that UH is used for something else but off label

887
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,280
can have the side effect of producing cofectation and so

888
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,519
and THENK, yeah, so that worked for that worked for me.

889
00:43:29,199 --> 00:43:31,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the coolest thing. Like I read that

890
00:43:31,159 --> 00:43:32,800
and I was my mind was blown and I was like,

891
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,280
this is awesome and I can't wait to ask her

892
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:35,559
about this because it's super cool.

893
00:43:35,599 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so glad because I really like talking about it,

894
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,760
but I don't not everybody likes to talk about it,

895
00:43:41,199 --> 00:43:43,079
so especially like once people are like, oh, we wanted

896
00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:45,320
to tell you thanks for talking to us about infertility

897
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,280
or adoption whatever. We're adopting a baby, and I'm like,

898
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,559
you got to nurse it, and it's I come on

899
00:43:49,599 --> 00:43:51,639
a little bit too strong, So I try not to

900
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,079
lead on that. But I think I think you're right.

901
00:43:54,079 --> 00:43:55,320
I think a lot of people don't. I mean, I

902
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,599
had a book called like Breastfeeding the Adopted Baby, but

903
00:43:58,679 --> 00:44:00,920
I think there's a lot a lot more information about

904
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,320
that now and a lot more lactatian consultants are familiar

905
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:09,039
with it. Yeah, but I uh, yeah, I recommend it.

906
00:44:09,039 --> 00:44:11,719
It was really great. It's a nice, wonderful ax toosin booze.

907
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,840
It's nice to have your body cooperate and just do

908
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,400
something a little bit normal, but again it's I think

909
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,840
it takes it takes it. It's it's I think if

910
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,599
you can build a full supply, A lot of people

911
00:44:24,679 --> 00:44:26,320
do that, a lot of people when they just start

912
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,199
the adoption process, we'll start the whole protocol with pumping

913
00:44:29,559 --> 00:44:31,599
and end up being able to freeze some breast milk,

914
00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:33,840
and then there's a whole big thing. I was. I

915
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:39,079
never had that time lead up time, so it was

916
00:44:39,199 --> 00:44:43,000
more I mean we used to got recreational. It was

917
00:44:43,039 --> 00:44:45,159
like more comfort nursing. I mean, I made some milk,

918
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,679
but we did have this supplement with formula. And my

919
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:49,480
kids are great and they had a lot of formula.

920
00:44:49,559 --> 00:44:51,440
So I think no pressure either way, right.

921
00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: Right, totally. Well, there's so much that happens through breastfeeding too,

922
00:44:56,039 --> 00:45:00,400
where like signals between your your body and the baby's

923
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,199
body and all of that. Does that occur in those

924
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,679
instances as well? I would imagine that it does to somethings.

925
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would think so. I think when you both

926
00:45:09,119 --> 00:45:12,119
are like experienced like the oxytocin together, I think there's

927
00:45:12,159 --> 00:45:15,440
something that happens there. I mean, yeah, I mean something's happened.

928
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,880
I mean, my kids are like barnacles. Even though they're

929
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:20,559
big now, they just want to be close to me

930
00:45:20,679 --> 00:45:24,519
all the time. So I were kind of a huggy

931
00:45:24,559 --> 00:45:28,239
family the Yeah, I mean it's just it's a it's

932
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,280
a very it's a very very special thing. And you know,

933
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,880
actually I've known even adoptive mothers who have not even

934
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,079
tried to induce the actual actation but have just comfort

935
00:45:37,159 --> 00:45:40,360
nursed and and I think that's a beautiful thing too.

936
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:41,559
And I think that's something we don't talk about. I

937
00:45:41,599 --> 00:45:44,079
think people think it's kind of weird. Some people think

938
00:45:44,199 --> 00:45:46,400
just normal breastfeeding is weird. So I mean, you know,

939
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:48,599
I think you just got to do what's right for

940
00:45:48,639 --> 00:45:49,440
you and your baby.

941
00:45:49,679 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: I look at it just another another fruitful part of

942
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,320
the story. Like it's just super cool and like it

943
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,280
was redeemed. That was really really awesome, awesome. You talk

944
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,760
in the book also just about like entering into perimenopause

945
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,199
or the menopause part of your life and what you

946
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,960
call grieving fertility you never had. Can you just speak

947
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:09,360
to that a little bit and kind of what that

948
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,440
process has been like for you and and how you're

949
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:13,079
dealing with that.

950
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really weird. I mean it's not weird, not

951
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,880
a very precise word, just I'm kind of in the

952
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,719
thick of it right now. Perimenopause is not for the

953
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,559
faint of heart, even though apparently we're all destined for it.

954
00:46:28,119 --> 00:46:30,159
Speaker 1: It's so much about womanhood. Is not for the fate

955
00:46:30,159 --> 00:46:31,920
of heart, right exactly.

956
00:46:32,039 --> 00:46:36,599
Speaker 2: And it's just so many hormones and things going up

957
00:46:36,639 --> 00:46:39,239
and down and deciding what to do and how to

958
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,039
treat it and and things. And I just I always wonder, too,

959
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:45,840
like if because there wasn't any you know, I think,

960
00:46:47,159 --> 00:46:49,360
I bet. I mean, I'm surely if you let's see

961
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,559
your mom of like five or six, they becomes a

962
00:46:51,599 --> 00:46:54,239
certain point in time where you know you haven't gotten

963
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,920
pregnant in two or three years. You think, okay, this

964
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:58,880
is this is where I am. Now, this isn't going

965
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,320
to happen. You know, You've had these kids and it's

966
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,079
I don't know, it's just there's just no It just

967
00:47:05,079 --> 00:47:07,719
seems to last forever too. I mean, the perimenopausit I

968
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,719
mean they say ten fifteen years, there's no cutoff, you

969
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,840
know what I mean. So it was only really like

970
00:47:13,039 --> 00:47:17,360
somehow it took I mean, somehow turning fifty I'm like, Okay,

971
00:47:17,519 --> 00:47:19,880
this has got there's got to be it, you know,

972
00:47:20,199 --> 00:47:21,880
because I've never I've never heard people like in their

973
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:23,760
late forties get pregnant. But also I think those people

974
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,280
have also been pregnant before. It's just I mean, it's

975
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:31,280
maybe my tongue tied, crazy nonsensical things shows you like

976
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,760
what those emotions are like, because it really is a

977
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:40,039
very strange thing because it's it's it's I mean, for me,

978
00:47:40,159 --> 00:47:43,559
really it's just like sort of closing technically just closing

979
00:47:43,559 --> 00:47:48,000
the chapter on menstruation hopefully, but you know, but at

980
00:47:48,039 --> 00:47:52,599
the same time, it's it is it's I know, yes,

981
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:59,159
it's grieving for the fertility I never had, and to

982
00:47:59,519 --> 00:48:02,159
always with that little bit of a hope, little tiny

983
00:48:02,199 --> 00:48:04,239
hope that maybe you're gonna get pregnant. Maybe there's gonna

984
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,039
be some weird thing, because you know, like as you

985
00:48:06,079 --> 00:48:08,320
get older, sometimes you like dump a couple extra eggs

986
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,639
out because your body's getting ready, and you know, maybe

987
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,760
one of those maybe you know, you never know, right,

988
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,039
you open to the possibility of a miracle and to

989
00:48:16,119 --> 00:48:18,440
realize like, oh yeah, I'm not going to be one

990
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,800
of those stories for real. I mean that probably was true,

991
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,920
like you know, ten years ago, but it's a really

992
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,760
like it's really really happening now, you know. Yeah, yeah,

993
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,519
but I mean luckily we have. I mean, there seems

994
00:48:30,519 --> 00:48:33,760
to be a whole commercial side to perimenopause.

995
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 3: Now.

996
00:48:34,039 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 2: There must have been enough of us doing it. It's everywhere,

997
00:48:37,199 --> 00:48:39,760
and everyone's least talking about that. There's an article about it.

998
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:41,679
I feel like in my news feed every other article.

999
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:46,360
Though I'm sure Big Brother is targeting me. I'm sure, yeah,

1000
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,599
but yeah, it is strange to do that, to have

1001
00:48:48,679 --> 00:48:52,880
that kind of like, yeah, well, I mean, you know,

1002
00:48:53,199 --> 00:48:54,920
so I wrote the book, the end of the story,

1003
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:56,119
the end of the story.

1004
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and yet there is still so much more to

1005
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:02,360
the story, like you have is it a three year old? Yes, yes,

1006
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,920
so there is so much yet to be written. And

1007
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,679
that's all too exciting that, you know, just because this

1008
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,199
chapter is closing, like you you know, you may have

1009
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,400
grand babies ahead, you may have you know, you still

1010
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,239
have so much child rearing ahead. It's just it's also

1011
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,920
such an exciting time, even though I'm sure there is

1012
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,079
a lot of grief, just that a company is like

1013
00:49:20,679 --> 00:49:24,320
finally fully closing that chapter. But yeah, not the book.

1014
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,480
There's a lot left to be written there, right, But.

1015
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,119
Speaker 2: Even little things like you know that my youngest, because

1016
00:49:30,119 --> 00:49:32,840
I was forty seven when he was born, you know,

1017
00:49:33,079 --> 00:49:36,239
he's probably most likely not going to have any little siblings.

1018
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,440
And it's again, it's like something that never really occurred

1019
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,800
to me before that. Obviously, the last whenever who ever

1020
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,000
is last, doesn't have any little siblings, right, But now

1021
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,440
that I've growing up an only child too, those are

1022
00:49:46,519 --> 00:49:48,760
kind of things I'm learning just from seeing my own children,

1023
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:54,360
but seeing how my middle too and my eldest you know,

1024
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:58,199
are together, and the way my middle too like really

1025
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:04,480
grew into brothers with the arrival of Gigi, our little one.

1026
00:50:04,679 --> 00:50:08,559
It's just you know, you think, like, oh, the last one,

1027
00:50:08,599 --> 00:50:13,880
the caboose, doesn't get you know, another caboose, right, yeah, right, yeah.

1028
00:50:13,599 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's hard. That's hard. Well, maybe your oldest will

1029
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,079
have children that will kind of take that that place,

1030
00:50:22,199 --> 00:50:25,280
that role. Oh yeah, he gets to experience what it's

1031
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:26,840
like to be a big brother, even though they're not

1032
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:28,280
his younger siblings.

1033
00:50:28,079 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 2: He is definitely a dead material. In fact, in his

1034
00:50:32,039 --> 00:50:36,119
little Montessori preschool, they did one of those videos when

1035
00:50:36,119 --> 00:50:37,519
they interview all the kids, like what do you want

1036
00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:40,079
to be when you grow up? And a fireman, A

1037
00:50:40,119 --> 00:50:45,039
princess bellerina, he said, A dad. So yeah, I think

1038
00:50:45,039 --> 00:50:48,000
we're gonna definitely get some grand babies out of so sweet.

1039
00:50:48,159 --> 00:50:52,119
Speaker 1: So see, you share in your book stories of friends

1040
00:50:52,199 --> 00:50:56,519
who have suffered with male factor infertility specifically, and you know,

1041
00:50:56,599 --> 00:50:58,960
of course, when you think about infertility, and this is

1042
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,679
another assumption, but you think of a lot of husbands

1043
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,159
supporting their wives through infertility and kind of what that

1044
00:51:04,159 --> 00:51:06,599
looks like. And of course there's there's a certain kind

1045
00:51:06,599 --> 00:51:10,920
of grief that accompanies, you know, men struggling through infertility,

1046
00:51:11,679 --> 00:51:13,719
but there's also so much of it that is, you know,

1047
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,639
grieving not having a pregnancy, which is unique to women.

1048
00:51:16,679 --> 00:51:18,199
So it's just it's such a different thing that men

1049
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:22,199
and women struggle with. But you know, specifically for couples

1050
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,280
who who struggle with this male factor infertility, what you know,

1051
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:30,280
how can wives love and support their husbands well through that?

1052
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's just like how we can

1053
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,519
do it through everything by listening, by asking the right questions,

1054
00:51:36,599 --> 00:51:42,840
as getting open, asking open ended questions understanding that they're

1055
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:47,280
grieving might be different from yours. Being very careful not

1056
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:52,599
to place any blame. I think men really, uh, because

1057
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,559
so often it is something wrong, you know, going on

1058
00:51:55,679 --> 00:51:59,400
with the women that men really are husbands are just

1059
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,039
like rise occasion and are just like princes to not

1060
00:52:03,119 --> 00:52:05,559
do that because we already feel guilty, you know, and

1061
00:52:05,639 --> 00:52:07,920
I think we have to be careful, you know, not

1062
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,440
to do that to our husbands as well. I was

1063
00:52:10,559 --> 00:52:13,559
really glad that my friend contributed her story because I

1064
00:52:13,599 --> 00:52:15,880
actually didn't know until she shared it with me, but

1065
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,719
that was why they were infertile. And I think because

1066
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,199
people don't talk about it, people keep quiet about it,

1067
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:26,199
and it's such a strange sort of I mean, I do, like,

1068
00:52:26,679 --> 00:52:29,920
you know, a man that's a protector and all those

1069
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,760
masculine virtues, but it is sort of like an outdated

1070
00:52:34,679 --> 00:52:37,320
thing that we would think that, you know, he's somehow

1071
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,519
less of a man because he's got some sort of

1072
00:52:39,559 --> 00:52:42,039
vascular issue that causes this problem, you know what I mean.

1073
00:52:42,079 --> 00:52:44,760
It's just a medical problem. And again I think that's

1074
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,079
that's the next I mean, you know, that's another one

1075
00:52:48,119 --> 00:52:49,840
of the steps that that needs to be talked about

1076
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:51,920
as well. And you know, I think that you know,

1077
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,400
there's it's probably not a bad idea to address young

1078
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,039
men to be like, these are the things that you

1079
00:52:56,079 --> 00:52:58,760
can do to make sure you know, or these are

1080
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,039
the exams you should get, or you know, it's more

1081
00:53:01,079 --> 00:53:03,239
awareness that that actually is a thing that happens.

1082
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: It's not just the punchline, right right, Yeah, absolutely, and

1083
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:08,559
that starts early. I mean there's so many things we

1084
00:53:08,599 --> 00:53:10,519
do to fuel our bodies, and you know, things that

1085
00:53:10,639 --> 00:53:13,039
men and women consume that you know, maybe women are

1086
00:53:13,039 --> 00:53:14,840
thinking about how it might affect their fertility, but men

1087
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:16,559
might not be thinking about how it's affecting them. And

1088
00:53:16,599 --> 00:53:18,960
so the Yeah, they're very important conversations to have and

1089
00:53:19,199 --> 00:53:21,440
things to keep in mind. But at the end of

1090
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,920
the day, you know that stuff can still happen, and

1091
00:53:24,159 --> 00:53:26,519
it's just like trying to trying to support and love

1092
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:28,679
the best that you can.

1093
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,280
Speaker 2: And I think, actually, oh so I was just going

1094
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,320
to a little bit to it. I think that even

1095
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,119
when it is female factor in fertility, wives really need

1096
00:53:37,159 --> 00:53:40,760
to remember that their husbands are grieving too, and it's

1097
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:42,960
not just about you, and that so much the attention

1098
00:53:43,079 --> 00:53:44,679
is on you, but you're the one that's not pregnant,

1099
00:53:44,679 --> 00:53:46,280
You're the one of the doctors, You're the one having

1100
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,320
the test. You're the one with the injections, but there's

1101
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,960
you know, they're sad too. They're sad, and they're sad

1102
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,079
for you. I mean, it's a very multi layered kind

1103
00:53:54,119 --> 00:53:57,199
of grieving that you're both doing together. And I think

1104
00:53:57,199 --> 00:54:02,639
it's important to take the time to listen and not

1105
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,360
just assume that they're okay and that they're just there

1106
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:06,679
to be your rock to lean on.

1107
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 1: Right, right, because infertility can take such a toll on marriages,

1108
00:54:11,559 --> 00:54:14,159
but at the same time also such a gift to

1109
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,039
experience it in marriage because you are not doing it alone.

1110
00:54:17,079 --> 00:54:19,119
So you know, if if husbands and lives can support

1111
00:54:19,159 --> 00:54:21,280
each other, well, that is truly the best gift that

1112
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,519
you could have when you're walking through something that is

1113
00:54:23,559 --> 00:54:25,079
one of the one of the most difficult things you

1114
00:54:25,119 --> 00:54:27,719
can walk through. To just to innately be doing it

1115
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:29,760
with another person is just that, you know, that's a

1116
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,239
sweet kindness from the Lord. Yes, yeah, to have that

1117
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,320
support that's just built in, you know, No, it's amazing.

1118
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:43,559
Speaking of support, how how would you advise friends who

1119
00:54:43,599 --> 00:54:46,840
maybe are very fertile or family members who are very fertile.

1120
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:52,800
How can they best love and support and understand what

1121
00:54:53,159 --> 00:54:56,039
infertile couples are struggling with and how can they be

1122
00:54:56,119 --> 00:54:57,760
good friends to them? You know, it's hard to know,

1123
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,760
Like you know, if you're struggling with it fertility, like

1124
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,159
there's there's still going to be that pregnant friend that

1125
00:55:03,159 --> 00:55:04,960
you have or whatever, Like how does that person love

1126
00:55:05,119 --> 00:55:09,320
well without like, you know, it being in your face

1127
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,480
that like they are not struggling with this thing. Like

1128
00:55:11,519 --> 00:55:13,880
that's a really tough dynamic. And I just love your.

1129
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,400
Speaker 2: Really is it really is tough. And I think that

1130
00:55:16,519 --> 00:55:19,679
it sometimes can place that fertile person pregnant person in

1131
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:25,960
an unfair position because, uh, you can have you can

1132
00:55:26,039 --> 00:55:28,480
have moments where that person can't do the right thing

1133
00:55:28,519 --> 00:55:32,199
for you. You know, they're just they have their everything, they

1134
00:55:32,199 --> 00:55:35,239
have everything that they want and you don't, and your

1135
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,960
attitude's terrible. But I think if you know your true

1136
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,320
loved ones, if they can sort of weather those days

1137
00:55:41,679 --> 00:55:44,679
along with I think some practical tips just in conversation

1138
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,320
is not to make comparisons between yourself and them, or

1139
00:55:47,679 --> 00:55:51,960
comparisons or like say things like oh I wish I

1140
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,320
could have a baby for you, or you know, you know,

1141
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,320
lament your own fertility or things you know those are

1142
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,880
those are just like sort of normal. I think rules

1143
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:05,039
about talking to other people they apply here to you know. Again,

1144
00:56:05,079 --> 00:56:09,400
I think I think not excluding them from groups. You know,

1145
00:56:09,519 --> 00:56:13,119
I U when I first moved here, I joined, you know,

1146
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,840
like most young moms do. You know. We all had

1147
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:18,360
found each other through different ways, like at the gym

1148
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:20,599
or through work or whatever. We had a little moms

1149
00:56:20,639 --> 00:56:21,960
group when we met every week, and our kids were

1150
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,920
all about the same age. And a woman who I knew,

1151
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,760
who had experienced in fertility for a while but was

1152
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,239
adopting from China. She asked, but she could join our

1153
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:35,119
group even before the baby came, and I think that

1154
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,880
was that was really great for her because otherwise, you know,

1155
00:56:39,519 --> 00:56:41,519
she just she just felt like, you know, she wasn't

1156
00:56:41,519 --> 00:56:44,440
with this group, she wasn't with that group. And so

1157
00:56:44,519 --> 00:56:46,920
I think, you know, you know, I think you can

1158
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,159
say things like, listen, I'm going to have these friends over.

1159
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,360
Everyone's bringing their babies. Is this something you want to

1160
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,559
do or something you don't want to do again, I

1161
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:55,559
think bringing it up in the first place. If your

1162
00:56:55,559 --> 00:56:58,400
friend hasn't told you, but you suspect they're experiencing infertility,

1163
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,320
that's the really hard part, but you know, I think

1164
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,280
just the general like everybody, like, is there anything I

1165
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,039
can pray for you about? Are you doing okay? Like

1166
00:57:06,079 --> 00:57:08,760
how's how are things going you guys have you know,

1167
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,760
I think there are ways to open up without the pressure.

1168
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,039
I think that's good because again they're already puting so

1169
00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:16,440
much pressure on themselves. Yeah.

1170
00:57:16,679 --> 00:57:20,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, before we close here, I just want to bring

1171
00:57:20,599 --> 00:57:23,280
it all back to the gospel because that really does

1172
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,199
infuse so much of the book too. And I just

1173
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:27,679
I was really struck. I was like making notes in

1174
00:57:27,719 --> 00:57:30,880
the margin as I was reading this part, but just

1175
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,880
the concept of carrying your cross and everybody having a

1176
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,800
different cross to carry, and I just this this quote

1177
00:57:39,599 --> 00:57:42,880
from Father Sebastian White, really, oh yeah, So to me,

1178
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,239
it was so good, and it's so it's so obvious,

1179
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:48,719
it's so it's such like an innate part of the Gospel,

1180
00:57:48,719 --> 00:57:51,000
Like this is not rocket science, this is basic stuff.

1181
00:57:51,199 --> 00:57:52,719
But as I was reading it, it was just it's

1182
00:57:52,719 --> 00:57:54,440
still just stuck out to me, and I was just

1183
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,719
like kind of meditating on it and pondering how important

1184
00:57:57,719 --> 00:58:00,400
this is. You know, that quote is this is just

1185
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:02,960
part of it, but it is precisely through the cross

1186
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,559
that the Lord shows his love for us. And I

1187
00:58:05,599 --> 00:58:09,440
was just thinking about the fact that like Jesus died

1188
00:58:09,559 --> 00:58:12,360
on the cross that he asks us to carry, like

1189
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,840
he does not ask more of us than he asked

1190
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,679
of his own son. And it's just like that's a

1191
00:58:18,719 --> 00:58:21,920
hard thing to grasp, but it's also such a beautiful

1192
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,639
and comforting thing that like the hardest things that we

1193
00:58:24,679 --> 00:58:28,239
go through are still just like he knows our suffering

1194
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:31,760
because he's done that, like he he carried the cross

1195
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,199
and died on the cross. Yes, yes, as a fan,

1196
00:58:34,719 --> 00:58:36,960
and I just yeah, just if you can talk a

1197
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,840
little bit about what that means to you and how

1198
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,559
how that has gotten you through some of these dark

1199
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:43,199
you know.

1200
00:58:43,519 --> 00:58:45,679
Speaker 2: Somebody asked me a similar question recently, and I've been

1201
00:58:45,719 --> 00:58:48,880
thinking about it even this morning, and you know, I

1202
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,039
do think that when we've talked a lot about it today,

1203
00:58:51,039 --> 00:58:54,920
about how infertility or pregnancy, all of it and just

1204
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:56,920
being a woman is just I mean, it really is

1205
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:59,440
true for everyone, but it's just like just a fleshy experiences,

1206
00:58:59,599 --> 00:59:02,119
you know, like we're dealing with we're dealing with sex,

1207
00:59:02,159 --> 00:59:05,400
we're dealing with checkups, we're dealing with blood and all

1208
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,639
kinds of fluids, and you know things and the limits

1209
00:59:09,039 --> 00:59:11,480
of your body, and you know you can have this

1210
00:59:11,599 --> 00:59:14,920
will and this heart and the soul that desires motherhood,

1211
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:18,039
and your body is not cooperating, and you're suffering, and

1212
00:59:18,079 --> 00:59:21,440
you live in this world in time, and you realize

1213
00:59:21,719 --> 00:59:24,960
that God did that too. God entered the world. God

1214
00:59:25,079 --> 00:59:29,360
entered time as a man and suffered, and it's it's humbling.

1215
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:34,079
And when you embrace that and pick up your cross

1216
00:59:34,079 --> 00:59:37,599
and carry it, you feel drawn into Jesus. And we know,

1217
00:59:37,639 --> 00:59:39,880
not to me, he suffered, died on the cross, and

1218
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,280
the cross is now a symbol of joy and love.

1219
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:45,880
And so that's what we find. We find that good

1220
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:50,199
news is salvation in that through his suffering. And I

1221
00:59:50,239 --> 00:59:53,360
think when you just realize the mirror I mean this,

1222
00:59:53,559 --> 00:59:57,400
like the fact that God became man for us put

1223
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:02,440
suffering in this sort of corporal way in her perspective, yeah,

1224
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:04,280
you know, yeah.

1225
01:00:03,719 --> 01:00:07,079
Speaker 1: And just the way that he the example of Christ

1226
01:00:07,239 --> 01:00:11,320
through his suffering, and just you know, I I'm reading

1227
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:13,920
in the Book of Luke right now, and I've been

1228
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:15,800
reading about you know that the crowds are pressing it

1229
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:18,280
on him and Jesus is just like finding a desolate

1230
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:21,840
place to pray, like he is God incarnate, and yet

1231
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:23,960
he is just constantly communing with the Father. And then

1232
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,199
you know as he's facing his own crucifixion, which is

1233
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,320
he it's his whole mission, like it's what he knows

1234
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:32,920
he's here to do, he was born to do this thing,

1235
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,360
and he's still just pleading with the Father that like

1236
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:37,360
if there's any way And obviously, you know when he's

1237
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:39,480
talking about the cup passing, he's talking about the cup

1238
01:00:39,519 --> 01:00:42,440
of God's wrath, like he's talking about the punishment for sin,

1239
01:00:42,559 --> 01:00:44,559
and yet you know there's so much of that that

1240
01:00:44,559 --> 01:00:46,119
we do where we just plead with the Father, like

1241
01:00:46,119 --> 01:00:48,880
if there is any way that you can let this

1242
01:00:49,119 --> 01:00:52,639
difficult thing that I really don't want to do pass

1243
01:00:52,719 --> 01:00:54,639
and so that I don't have to experience it, like

1244
01:00:54,719 --> 01:00:57,679
please please do that. And just like the fact that

1245
01:00:57,679 --> 01:00:59,920
that cup did not pass, it was poured out full

1246
01:01:00,199 --> 01:01:05,119
on Christ and like the redemption that we can have

1247
01:01:05,239 --> 01:01:08,800
through that reality and just like on such a smaller scale,

1248
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,639
but no less real. You know, we experience these things

1249
01:01:11,639 --> 01:01:13,280
that we plead with the Father, like if there's any

1250
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,119
way that we don't have to do this thing, please

1251
01:01:15,239 --> 01:01:19,079
you know, and sometimes he takes it away and sometimes

1252
01:01:19,199 --> 01:01:23,000
we He marches us right through it and there is

1253
01:01:23,079 --> 01:01:24,800
no you know, there is still so much joy and

1254
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,199
so much redemption. And it's just like such a picture

1255
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,280
of what we experience in Christ, all of that fullness.

1256
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,920
But we can also experience that like as we commune

1257
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:36,159
with God and as he does, like as he does

1258
01:01:36,239 --> 01:01:39,360
call us to suffer like Christ suffered. And yet there

1259
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,400
is joy and there is love, and there is redemption.

1260
01:01:41,519 --> 01:01:43,719
And I just I was reminded of that with your book.

1261
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:48,000
It was so encouraging to me. Everybody can get Lee's

1262
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,159
book now because by the time this errs, it will

1263
01:01:50,199 --> 01:01:54,519
be out. That's so exciting. Don't sleep on that. Go

1264
01:01:54,559 --> 01:01:56,519
get a copy of Lee's book. You will not regret it.

1265
01:01:56,639 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 3: Lee.

1266
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: Where can people buy your book and where can they

1267
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:01,480
find you online for more content and just more of

1268
01:02:01,519 --> 01:02:02,920
your thoughts and to follow up?

1269
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can follow me at well, you can look

1270
01:02:05,679 --> 01:02:09,760
at my website leaf fitzpatricksneed dot com. You can also

1271
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:13,159
follow my work at the Catholic Association dot org. You

1272
01:02:13,199 --> 01:02:15,800
can order my book at Barnsnoble or Amazon, but it'd

1273
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,360
be best if you ordered it from Sophia Institute Press.

1274
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 1: Awesome, that's always good to know. Yeah, don't give your

1275
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,239
money to Amazon, give it to give it to Sofia

1276
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,519
Institute Press. So, Lee, thank you so much for your

1277
01:02:25,519 --> 01:02:27,039
time today. It was truly a pleasure to.

1278
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 2: Talk to you.

1279
01:02:27,599 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: And I'm so excited to hear just everybody's feedback on

1280
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:32,639
your book because I know they're going to love it.

1281
01:02:32,719 --> 01:02:40,559
So thanks again for being here. Thank you, Thank you

1282
01:02:40,639 --> 01:02:43,000
so much for tuning in to this week's episode of

1283
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:46,000
The Kylie Cast. If you haven't done so already, please

1284
01:02:46,119 --> 01:02:48,360
like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you

1285
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:50,880
never miss an episode. Leave us a five star review.

1286
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:52,880
It's such an easy way for you to help out

1287
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:55,199
the show so much. And go get a copy of

1288
01:02:55,320 --> 01:03:00,159
Lee Fitzpatrick Sneed's brand new book, Infertile but Fruitful is

1289
01:03:00,159 --> 01:03:02,440
a delightful read and you will not be disappointed. I

1290
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:05,159
will be right back here next week with more so

1291
01:03:05,239 --> 01:03:08,280
until then, just remember the truth hurts, but it won't

1292
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:15,480
kill you.