Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold,
Managing editor at The Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts. If you don't know, we have
a new channel specifically for the Kylie Cast on Spotify
and Apple Podcasts. So if you are only subscribed to
The Federalist Radio Hour, or you are wrong with Molly
Hemingway and David Harsani, two of our other wonderful Federalist podcasts,
please also subscribe to the Kylie Cast as well. Leave
us a five star review. That is one of the
easiest ways you can help out the show, and even
better yet, if you're just listening to the show, go
check out the full video version on my personal YouTube
channel or the Federalists channel on Rumble, and then of
course like and subscribe there too. If you'd like to
email the show, you can do so at radio at
the Federalist dot com. I would love to hear from
you today. I am so excited to welcome to the
Kylie Cast. Lee Fitzpatrick Snead Lee is a fellow at
the Catholic Association and she is also the author of
the brand new book infertile but fruitful. In the book,
Lee walks through her personal story of infertility and what
it was like going to see a doctor that did
not align with her Catholic worldview that really tried to
immediately push her toward IVF. She also talks about then
pivoting to a different doctor that worked with her wants
and desires and within her Christian beliefs. She talks about
adoption and the difference between a desire for a baby
and a desire for pregnancy. She talks about breastfeeding. She
talks about her faith and her life and her marriage.
There is truly something in this book for everyone, especially
because even if you don't personally struggle with infertility, you
either know somebody or will know somebody who struggles with this,
and it's just such a good resource to help understand
and have more compassion for people who are walking through
this road that could be so dark and so lonely
and so difficult. I'm so excited for you to hear
our conversation. We had a great time. Definitely don't sleep
on the opportunity to pick up Lee's brand new book.
It's such an easy and delightful read. I found myself
crying at parts and laughing at parts. It's very thought provoking,
and she also offers a lot of helpful practical lessons
that she's learned along the way that you can implement
in your life, whether you struggle with infertility or not. So,
without further ado, please welcome to the show, Lee Fitzpatrick
sneed Lee, thank you so much for coming on the
Kylie Cast. It is such a privilege and an honor
to have.
Speaker 2: You, Kylie, thank you so much for having me. I'm
really happy to be here with you today.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was telling Lee right before we started recording
that because I review so many books and do so
many interviews with authors on the podcast, often reading a
review copy of a book means more like heavy skimming
or speed reading. And I sat down with Lee's book
and I read it in one sitting and I could
not put it down. And it was like a full,
thorough not a speed read. I was just completely engrossed
by it. At the end of every chapter, you just
have to keep reading because there's just so much great
stuff as part of her story. So I don't know
if there's like a better recommendation to a book than
one that you just can't put down. So everybody should
read Lee's book. But yeah, Lee, I don't want to
give the book away, but can we just start by
you giving us just kind of a thirty thousand foot
view of walking us through your story to just kind
of give people a sense of who you are, where
you come from, and what brought you to write this book.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I met my husband in college freshman year.
We got married soon after we met. We saw each
other at church and we you know, it's sort of
we put off kind of casually having kids because we
were younger, and you know, we were living in DC
and sort of that lifestyle, know what, none of our
friends were even married really at first, and so we
put it off. And then we really started trying to
have a baby in earnest and a year went by
and no baby. And over the years we saw different
medical treatments at different times. We decided to pursue adoption
actually simultaneously with trying to look at pregnant, and I
did some I was in graduate school for philosophy, but
I left my program with a master's when my first
son was born, and I eventually got into doing some
freelance writing and that sort of ebbed and flowed over
the years. My husband's professor at Notre Dame, and we built,
we moved, we left DC, we built a life here
in Indiana. I started working with a Catholic association a
few years ago, doing more writing and hosting our syndicated
a radio show, Conversations with Consequences. And I had written
a couple articles for the National Catholic Register about my
infertility experience, I think maybe even for National Infertility Week
or something, and one of them was an open letter
to those suffering from infertility, and it really resonated. I
got a lot of messages, a lot of comments, a
lot of sharing, a couple just really great stories from that.
You know, I had some friends who actually didn't realize
were stuffering from fertility that reached out and then that
sort of blossomed into a really, really very full friendship
with them. Another young married man was up at night
searching for answers. He and his wife weren't getting pregnant,
and they were, you know, sad and not anyone to do,
and he was just looking and he came across my
article and then saw my last name and realized that
he had been a student of my husband's and so
we've you know, we've maintained a friendship with them too
after that. So yeah, exactly exactly. And so I had
a mentor who thought the same thing, and she said, Lee,
this is your book. And so then I decided I
put it together. And I was in my late forties.
It was sort of that time was come. I mean,
it was closed. But you know, in your brain, you
kind of to get used to the idea. You have
to be able to say, I am never going to
get pregnant, because no one ever told me that, doctor
has ever said that to me, but they would now
because I'm fifty and you know, I think I've never
been pregnant so far. So, you know, being able to
say that and being like, okay, this is where I
am now now I can go back. I just you know,
I just want people to be able to I want
people to see themselves in a book, because I feel
like we're kind of unrepresented in all kinds of stuff,
whether it's nonfiction or fiction or entertainment or you know,
just culture at large. I mean, you see families with
biological children everywhere, and or just feelies with children in general,
and you know, I think that the conversation is getting
better and more fruitful all the time, and I think
a lot of people are writing and talking about it,
which is fantastic. But infertility needs to be needs to
be something that everyone is you know, a little least
a little bit fluent in, and it's used to talking
about and are they aren't uncomfortable talking about it. I
think that's really what I wanted to do. I wanted
to sort of like break the ice on a conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think your book does that really well,
because I think for people who do struggle with infertility,
this is it's such a great book book for them
to feel seen and to feel like I'm not alone
and there are other people who struggle with this, especially
because you do include other stories besides your own in
the book that are so different from yours, just to
give people hope who maybe are in the same struggle.
But I think it also really helps people who do
have children, or who are pregnant, or you know, who
don't suffer from this to kind of understand what that
road looks like and how to come alongside side somebody
who struggles with that and be a better friend and
a better sister or you know, whatever it might be
to those.
Speaker 2: Exactly, especially when you say sister, because I think that
that's who I've heard from a lot, is like I
didn't know how to talk to my sister about this,
And especially if you come from a big family and
maybe all your mother obviously had lots of children, maybe
your sisters are having lots of children, and you're sort
of the odd man out. People they want to help
and they want to be there for you, but they
don't to make you feel worse and so and oftentimes
they say nothing, and then you don't know how to
bring it up, and maybe you're kind of ashamed, and
so you don't bring it up with them, so no
one talks, and then everybody just gets kind of lonelier
and sadder. I think that there's a belief too, when
you're suffering with infertility that I'm not going to really
talk about this. I'm just gonna wait it out because
one day I'm going to get pregnant and that'll be
the news and that'll be my story and I won't
have to think about any of this other dark stuff again.
But you know, you need to be ready for that
not to happen. And I think it's it's so it's
you know, it's more it's more common than you think.
I mean, it's still I think I've heard anything between
like one in five for one in ten couples. But
it's again, that could be just a delay that it
takes more than a year the typical year for somebody
under thirty five to get pregnant.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, and especially just the loneliness and the
isolation that comes from that, Like the enemy loves nothing
more than to isolate us and to make us feel
like we're alone or you know, or to drive us
into the dark corners of not opening up about these
things and not finding people who can mentor us and
disciple us or even sit with us in our grief.
And it's such a lonely place to be. And that's
exactly where he wants us to be.
Speaker 2: So exactly, And that's when you start feeling that I
really try to be honest about those dark and raw
kind of moments when you know you're jealous, you're jealous
of people, you're you know, you're envious, you're you're resentful.
You know, it's hard to take joy in other people's joy.
There's a lot of why me or why not me?
You know, there's a lot of you get weird thoughts
with like about your husband, about like he should have
married somebody else, or you know, like just really dark things.
I think I can tell the story in the book
about I remember a couple of times I had a
dream that my like my fifty year old mom at
the time, was was pregnant, you know, because like obviously
everybody can get pregnant except for me, right right, Yeah,
And so I think that's right. I think you need
that accompaniment with you know, your friends and I you know,
I hope that like pastors and you know, seminarians and
priests and they read it too, so that when and
they have a couple in their in their plock that
need this help, that they kind of had that language
ready to talk to them, or can just share my book?
Speaker 1: Yes, Yes. One of the things I love about your
book is that at the end of each chapter, it's
not it is your story, but it's not just your story.
You also give really practical tips and like takeaways and advice.
I don't know what exactly, I don't remember exactly what
you call it, but they're just like.
Speaker 2: Lessens along the way.
Speaker 1: I think lessons along the way, yes, and they're great lessons.
And one of them from early in the book, you
talk about how you met your husband when you were
fairly young and you dated for a few years, but
you know, when you got married, none of your friends
were married or had babies, and so it was just
like the normal thing to do to wait. And I
think one of the lessons that you give is like,
you don't have to wait. You know, it's actually good
to get started early. Can you just speak to like
the cultural messaging that we get about. You know, you
don't want to be the first one to have kids
when all your friends are still out traveling and all
these things, like you know, what do you think contributes
to some of that messaging? And maybe talk to somebody
who is freshly married, like what what do you think
they should do?
Speaker 2: You know, I think even as now that I'm the
parent of a twenty year old, now I can see
why parents can fall into that trap of sort of
you know, yes, on paper, this is what we believe,
and you should. I hope you find your husband and
you get married in this but you know, you've invested
money and time into your child's education you want them
to be proud. You maybe want them to go to
graduate school, you want them to do this, you want
and maybe you you know, have a concern that you
want your daughters to be financially secure and you don't
want them to take those risks because that's that's your baby,
and so you're you're protective of them, and so you
project a little bit that of those expectations onto people.
I think even though sort of culturally you might be
totally on board with the early marriage to early babies thing,
and that's something we do probably without even knowing about.
I think another thing to consider is that, you know,
if you really don't want kids yet, maybe it's not
time to be married yet. I mean, obviously, I really
I treasure those first couple of years. We really had
a really fun time. But it's you know, I think
that we could have also done that will still you know,
going ac courting, you know, but it's again, I mean,
I'm all in favor of I think people put off
marriage for the same reasons they think, oh, I need
to do this first, Whereas I mean my husband and
I met when I was nineteen, he was twenty one.
We did a lot of growing up together. I think
we're glad about that now. We made a lot of
mistakes and the only we are the only two that know.
You know, there's some embarrassing stories and things like that
to keep it in the vault. And you know, I
think that we were able to because we grew up
and we grew up differently than we were brought up.
I mean we we our house is different from the
houses that we grew up in with divorced parents, and
I was an only child, but we had meeting young.
We had time to sort of craft and plan for
the life and to kind of gather information as we
went along. Yeah. I think it's that addressed the questions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yeah, well, and I think one of the messages,
like I hadn't really thought about the parental component of it,
of you know, even the messages that you get from
your parents where they want certain things for you, that
maybe would delay some of those things. But also, of
course we get so much cultural messaging now, and it's
so much secular messaging. But even you know, some people
believe it's pro life messaging, which I would disagree with,
and I think you would two that you know, well,
it doesn't really matter when you start trying to have babies,
because you can always freeze your eggs or you can
always pursue IVF. But basically just that there's always a backstuff,
there's always a fallback. Even if things don't work out
for you, you know, there's always a way to remedy that.
And you talk in the book about a couple of
different doctors that you pursued over the course of your
struggle with infertility, and the first one being one that
really pushed for IVF. Can you talk a little bit
about your experience with that doctor and kind of like
some of the pitfalls that associated your pursuit in trying
to get answers to your infertility.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, so my husband was actually working as the
General Counsel for the President's Council by Ethics with Leon
cass and under George W. Bush, and he was the
chief drafter of a government of poor cod reproduction and
Responsibility right around the time we were really trying to
get pregnant, and so basically as we went on every
month not being pregnant, he was also every month learning
about something that can go wrong and the different ways
they treat it and the ethical implications of those things.
And so it's just it was like we were being
hit at on all sides, like, yeah, this is the
fertility world. But at the same time, you think, okay,
because he met with you know, infertility associations and things
like that, he knew the name Simplas. You know, we
lived in DC, we had access to a lot of doctors.
This doctor, I think, had been like featured in Washingtonian
magazine and everything. And we're thinking, okay, well he probably
does some stuff we don't agree with, but he's really good.
And again, you think, I'm in my twenties. This has
got to be an easy fix. Go the great doctor,
you get in, get out right fix it's going to be.
And so we went and we thought we were armed
with our will be called like our Catholic and fertility playbook.
We thought we'll write the rules. And he just he
wasn't having it. I mean, he told us all the time,
you know, I'm a cradle Catholic. I don't see what
the big deal is. And you know, he's like, I'd
really like to enroll you in my IVF program. Enroll
me in the program. Because I was like twenty six,
twenty seven, I think at the time, So you know,
I was great for success rates? Yeah right, maybe maybe,
I mean, you know, who knows.
Speaker 1: But how long did you see him before he expressed
an interest in enrolling you in IBF?
Speaker 2: Like was that that right off the bat? And so
we had to kind of like see, like, hey, can
you try it? Can we do some more diagnostic tests,
you know, like X rays and stuff, and and so
it kind of humored us thinking that eventually we'd crack.
I think it's what they do because every month when
we'd have a meeting after, you know, we'd sort of like,
you know, what's a well, I can't think of the word,
but he didn't really want to, but he gave us
these kind of band aid treatments. Not really no, that
band aid treatment, that's not really what I'm looking for.
The word I'm looking for is like he was trying
to pacify us until we could get until we just
would agree to do what he wanted to do. Yes,
and sorry for that word, jumble, You're good the uh
you know, we go in, he'd be like, okay, so
what do you think now, what do you think now
this medicine is really not working for you? Let's do IBF.
Let's do IBF. And I think that was about maybe
like four or five months in and the we're like,
you know, we told you, no, that's not what we're
going to do. You know, is there something else? You know?
And uh, he got so enraged and frustrated with us.
He pointed back to his lab, saying, I'm creating life
back there, not destroying it. And uh, were.
Speaker 1: You just so taken aback?
Speaker 2: Like I don't even know, I'm having a reaction right
now just remembering it was awful, and I think this
is the person that's supposed to be like caring for
you your body, especially something so intimate is your fertility.
So my husband grabbed my hand, we walked out. I
don't even think we checked out at the desk, mind,
we just never went back.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And the weird sort of anecdotal part of it is,
and I do try to make great efforts to not
conflate infertility and adoption, because I think there too, you know,
you might have a calling to adoption, you might not
be infertile, may be infertile and not called to adoption.
But about nine months actually walked out of that office,
my son and my fotus was born.
Speaker 1: That's so redemptive, just beautiful. Yeah, and it's just so
crazy to hear that story, like, you know, because you
think there's probably a lot more women who well, there's
plenty of women who see no ethical qualm with IVF
in the second the doctor you know recommends it, especially
because so much of unexplained infertility is just unexplored infertility.
Not all of it, of course, but if you're being
pushed toward IVF the moment you walk into a fertility clinic,
that's clearly not something that they're exploring. And just the
number of women who are just put on to this
cash cow convey or belt of IVF and they don't
see anything wrong with it, and many of them then
do see something wrong with it later down the road
and have lots of regrets about it. But just those women,
And then you have the few that you know are
seeking real, real treatment, a real answer for their infertility,
and they know for a fact, no, we are not
going to do this, We're not going to do this.
You walk out of that clinic. How many other women
walk in there with a vague notion of no, we
don't want to pursue IVF, But they face that kind
of pressure and that kind of pushback and just that
persistence and anger from a doctor that's supposed to be
caring for you, and just I mean, that is so
much pressure. And yeah, you know, especially people who are
not well catechised or not you know, not not theologically sound.
I don't know like how little pushback it would take
to cave to a doctor that's that persistent.
Speaker 2: And yeah, because it's really really tempting. You go in there.
The walls are plastered with baby pictures. There are pregnant
women everywhere, and you think you try to eat, you know,
you in those you know, late at night when you're
kind of crazy in and out of sleep, you start
thinking like, what if we just did one embryo, what
if just too you know, no extras, We wouldn't selectively reduce,
you know, all these things you shruy to make these
is could it be okay?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: And it's tough. And again that's again why you need
that support, Why you need to have your family and
your loved ones around you so that you're not dealing
with those sort of temptations alone. Because if you're already
dealing with your infertility in secrecy, I think it's not easy.
It's not hard to imagine doing IBF also in secrecy,
maybe because you're community, you're also surrounded by people who
don't You want to do IVF, but you think you
just do it and then nobody knows, and I never
have to think about that again.
Speaker 1: And it's just those thoughts are So that's always where
the pro life mind goes, right, because it's you, You
so badly desired for people to be helped who are
struggling with this, but to be helped in a way
that doesn't violate our consciences and doesn't violate our our
view of the sanctity of life. And I just had
a really good conversation with Katie Faust recently about IVF specifically,
and just for talking about the fact that like, even
if this is what you desire, if you talk to
an IVF fertility doctor about these desires, they won't even
do them. Like they won't even let you do a
cycle with just you know, one embryo or two embryos,
because they need you to come back for more, They
need you to have embryos frozen there. Like it is
such a racket. And so it's just it's just heartbreaking
because it's such an exploitative process, and you know, people
are in their most vulnerable state and just praying on
that good God given desire to bear children.
Speaker 2: And yeah, one hundred percent. And I think you got
hit on this a little bit ago about the not
getting to these root causes. And so that's why it's
really heartening to see the proliferation of these restorative reproductive
medicine doctors and necrotechnology doctors being trained by doctor Hilder's
and Nebraska and you know, or just even people who
advertise themselves like I'm a doctor, I'm also a man
or woman of faith and we can work on this together.
I talked to one person who had helped actually with
a different part of my book, and they had she
and her husband were having some problems that she couldn't
find anyone to help with conventional doctors. Even some of
the restorative medicine doctors weren't able to help her. But
what she found was a Jewish practice. And while they
had no problem doing these two doctors had no problems
with IVF, and they suggested it a couple of times.
They were also very strong in their faith, and so
they respected my friend's views too, and so they were
able to actually just successfully treat her and I think
she has poor children.
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, that makes all the difference is finding a
provider that shares your values and even if they don't
share them, respects them from me. That respect. Yes, that's
so important. I was actually going to ask you about
napro next and your alternate fertility treatment seeking with doctor
Hilder's and can you just explain more in detail what
napro technology is and like what the Creton model is.
Speaker 2: Sure, I mean this is going to be you know,
just like the lay the lay woman's explanation. There are
lots of people out there who can get into the
nitty gritty details with you. It's a sympto well, it's
it's symptomatic charting and you you we have these different
stickers that indicate different kinds of body signs for your
fertility and the when you are under the care of
an appro position, you'll for infertility, you'll have like blood
work done and there'll be adjustments to you know, hormone levels, things,
things that are you should have going for you anyway.
In fact, like lots of young women are now learning
the method early to figure out what's going on, like
why is my PMS so bad? You know. I actually
they have a friend who's an pro practitioner and also
practices it, and she actually detected through charting her own
precancer as cells.
Speaker 1: That is crazy.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's amazing. The ways that this affects the
quality of your life are just so far reaching, so
far beyond even just being able to achieve pregnancy when
you can't.
Speaker 1: And I think sech to rebuke to the other way
of just putting you on this quick, fixed method, Like
you know, there's so many underlying things in help that
just they need to be addressed. And you know, I
even think like now so many women use and men
use these URR rings, which is obviously different, but that
also gives you so many, so many indicators of your
body and like the way that it can tell you
you're probably going to get sick tomorrow because of what
your body temperature is, or like you know, something that
seems a little off, and it's just like your body
gives so many signs about everything, and so tracking those
is just such a holistic way to approach something that
ye does have such distinct underlying causes. So I'm sorry, totally, no, you.
Speaker 2: Are know, I love it. I love how excited you are.
But the and there's a real I think generational shift
that's happening too, that people are turning to that. You know,
people are throwing away their hormonal birth control pills and
things like that, respecting their bodies more. Which makes sense
when you think about like macha drinking and you know,
yogilates and all these other things that we're doing for ourselves.
Why why are we putting these you know, chemicals into
our bodies all the time too? But I do think
I think that part of it is that big business
thing we just talked about. I mean a lot of
these strategies, a lot of them take time, you know,
to heal if you're really addressing these underlying root causes.
And I think the conventional doctors often want you on
the schedule and once you pass, you know, the one
year mark, and then maybe you've done. I mean, if
you're willing to pay. I think a lot of doctors
will let you try a VF until you know the
money runs out. But you know, but I think that
you know, I know women who have really younger women
who have stuck with it for years and have just
continued seeing doctors and trying different things, doing things like diet,
which obviously is not going to affect you your next cycle,
you know what I mean, Like that's going to take time, right,
and flame inflammation, all these different things, and you know,
five six, late, six years later they're having healthy pregnancy.
But because you're not on that fast track. You know,
this artificial timeline that people create, right, and again, if
it is, if it's true, if you've been to your
own like you know, feelings, or maybe you didn't meet
the right guy or woman until you were older, yeah,
you're under the clock a little bit, and you need
to respect that. But these Yeah, the idea that it's
it's over for you and there's only this one solution
is just it's maddening.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about you you discussed in the book
the difference between the desire for pregnancy and the desire
for a baby. Can you explain what you mean by
that distinction and kind of how that manifested for you?
Speaker 2: And that's actually it's really good timing with that question
because I was just sort of thinking it. I don't
know if I would have had it in me to
stick with it. Five, six, seven years. I really wanted
to be a mom with a baby right now. And
I think some people, some people you know, have the
have the metal to go the distance, you know, and
can do it. And but I uh, I never you know,
we never stopped trying to have even if we weren't
under care. We never stopped like being open to life
and really wanting to be pregnant. But it's uh, once
that door opened and we saw that, I mean really,
I had a real clear message you're an adoptive mom,
and you know, yeah, I knew it, but then he
told me so uh yeah, and it just it was
it just was so it was so clear to us
that was our vocation that you know, if we had
other babies, that was fine, but this is something that
we could do and we wanted to do. And yeah,
and so that made it easier for me. I do
think that you know, other people really want to experience pregnancy,
and I do. I mean, I still I still warn
that idea. But you know, in the end, I just
I just I wasn't hesitant to jump on the adoption
train pretty early, but it was my first time was
three when we saw doctor Hilgers just to sort of
put people okay, but then the timeline, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just the clarity that your call was to parenthood
if not to pregnancy. Yes, yeaheah, yeah, Okay, let's talk
a little bit about the trip that you took. Was
it to London for six Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: It's yeah. I taught in the London program and Notre
Dame for six months, and we decided to take a
break from our treatments with doctor Hilger's just because it's
like a lot of medicine and needles and stuff, and
it just felt like I already felt being in Indiana
away from him in Nebraska was already kind of far enough.
Putting an ocean between it seemed like too much. And
then you just have like a suitcase full of needles
and whatever. And we thought, okay, great six months, let's
just take a little break. And the needles really do
get to you. I mean, it got to a point
where I think all the blonde ladies out there will
understand this, that even just getting foils for highlights was
I was just so sick and being like messed with
all the time, you know that I just it was
nice to just have a break. And we really had
a nice time. We know, we just had our first son,
he was four, he turned five, and we were there.
We went to the theater, we went to restaurants, we
did lots of cultural things. You know, we traveled to
Italy for two weeks to see friends there. It was
just really, really great. And when we were ready to
go home, you know, we're sort of you know, making
sure or you know, our son was enrolled for school
the next year. And because it was like May June,
I guess, and everything was in line for us to
come home with a dog sitter or whatever, i'd oh,
I should probably call doctor Hilder's and let him know,
you know, coming home, and what what do I need
to do to get started back up again? Do I
need to go get blood work done? And my husband said,
you know, maybe let's just not let's let's just adopt again.
And it was almost like he gave me my permission
to give myself permission to stop, because you do feel
that pressure like I got to keep doing this. I've
got to keep doing this, yeah, because it's you know,
it's going to work. And we got a seventy five
percent chance of success, you know, that's what you know,
he predicted for us, and it was such a relief
to be like, okay, you know, but again like not
forever off the table. I was, you know, thought about
it again a couple of times, but it just didn't
make sense for us, you know. I think we thought,
if it happens, it happens. But if not, we know
that this is a way that we can be parents,
and and it works for us. And so again we
got home and it wasn't very long before we got
our home study done. And so we got home, say
like June of twenty ten, and in March twenty eleven,
we got a call from our agency saying, hey, we
got all your paperwork, background checks, you know, criminal records,
blah blah blah. Everything looks good. We'll let you know,
you know what's going on with your profile. Every month,
we'll check in with you. But by the way, there's
a woman who's expecting twins at the end of this month.
Are you open to being considered by her? And we're like,
oh sure, and we're thinking great, this is great. We're
getting a little nipple now. Definitely, this is our year
we'll get a baby. And then the next day she
wanted to talk to us, and then the next day
we were going to take it out till lunch, and
then she was admitted to the hospital and that night
the twins were born.
Speaker 1: That is so cool.
Speaker 2: Well that's about forty eight hours. Yeah, we still haven't
quite recovered fourteen years later, and was fir teen years later.
Speaker 1: You just don't know where you ever will no, oh.
Speaker 3: No, no, Well, Washington's housing fixes backfire. The Watchdot on Wall
Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack
the connection between politics and the economy and how it
affects your wallet. Trump plans on purchasing billions and mortgage
backed securities, as well as allowing people to use retirement
to make down payments. Does adding more cash bring down
the price or add fuel to the fire. Whether it's
happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting
you financially.
Speaker 2: Be informed.
Speaker 3: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris
Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: There was this passage from your book where you're talking
about that and just yeah, I'll just read this passage
because it was so beautiful to me, often bleary eyed
and with your first son right there in the mix.
We three gazed at our too sweet and snugly little
miracles and new just new with every bone and our
tired bodies that leaving the needles behind and instead preparing
ourselves for another adoption was exactly what we had been
meant to do. I'm sitting on my couch reading this
by the fire, literally just crying. It was just so
beautiful and I just I just love love that and
the way that your husband gave you permission, you know
that you felt just that relief and that permission to
just yeah, give your body a break. And I also
just love, like you know, inherent in your story in
London is just also the beauty and the importance of
the fact that when you're going through struggles, struggles like this,
because when you start trying to get pregnant, that becomes
kind of your sole focus, especially if it doesn't happen
right away, like that is the only thing you are,
like one track mind, this is what we're doing. And
just the importance of you know, your marriage to your spouse,
it will still always be the most most important relationship
you have, and it's so important to prioritize that and
just like the beauty of having that time to reconnect
away from the constant bombardment and pressure and feeling of
this is what we're doing. We got a track, we
got to do this and that, and just there's so
much redemption and beauty even in that part of the story.
And it's like there was not there was not a
conception in that part of the story, and still it
was so beautiful and redemptive. And I mean, I love
the title of your book for that reason too, because
throughout every page it's just like, yes, it is about infertility,
but it is also such a fruitful story. And I
just I was just overwhelmed by that over and over
throughout the whole book.
Speaker 2: So oh, I'm so glad because that really is the message,
I think, and I think again, I think it's one
of the reasons why I was called felt like I
needed to write write it now is that, you know,
I want people to look at our family and say, like, oh, hey,
they never got pregnant. You know, it's not so bad
what they've got going on there, like that's a happy life.
And yeah, and again that's why I wanted to include
other women's stories too, Like I to call it the
other flavors of infertility, especially the story of you know
who she and her husband don't have children, because there
are lots of women with infertility who you know, don't
have a calling to adopt or for whatever reason, don't
adopt children. And I think that culturally, but in Christian
Catholic circles, sometimes we don't know, we don't know what
to do with them, so again we don't talk to
them about it, you know, and it's kind of like, well,
they must not care that they were infertile because they
didn't adopt, or do you don't mean like we were
little asceptitions you can make. And I know because even
though I am on the infertile side, I make assumptions
like that about people all the time. You know, it's
just human nature. You just want to kind of wonder about,
you know, s about people's business, and of course you
can't ask because that's like the most intimate thing ever.
But I think that when we think about when we
reduce fruitfulness to just baby, you know, we forget about
like the fruitfulness of like you know, our Catholic priests
are celibate, they're fruitful, you know, like it's not just
married couples, and after you're done raising your children, you're
still called to be fruitful single person, you're calls it
be fruitful. So I think it's it's really easy to
think that your purpose in life, you know, your God
given purpose is not is in your failing because you're
not having a baby. And to open up our idea
of what real fruitfulness can mean, whether that means hospitality
or god parents, or you're a writer, or your other
gifts in the world, I mean anything, any I feel
like it's it's not even you can't even really get
examples because you don't know what what you what your
fruits will be, if there'll be fruits, and you know
what I mean, you don't know until you've shared them, right,
You've shared these things and then they bear they bear
even more fruit. So I think that that's that's a
really important thing to remember, is to really think about
people who choose not or who don't adopt, and we
still need to embrace them, and we still have to
assume that they also suffered too.
Speaker 1: Mm yes, yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Don't want them to go forgotten because it's easy. Again,
like I think, like, oh, it's great, they were infertile
and then they adopt to babies, and that's great, but
you know it's not life can be really great even
without children. Yes, no, but and it's hard because every
every time we get reminded that we don't get to
choose what happens with our lives. That's hard. And this
is a big one, you know, especially you know, for women,
especially I think for Christian women. But yeah, it's it's
it's it's a it's yeah a thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I have a number of Christian female friends who badly
desire to be moms and wives, and they still are
having trouble with the first step of just like, yeah,
really struggling with singleness. And and yet I look at
their lives and there is so much fruitfulness there and
so much of that does come from still the motherhood,
the God given motherhood instinct and gift that women have
been given. And you you write in your book, even
if infertile, quote, our vocation to motherhood is no mistake.
And I think even for women who you know, it's
not just for women who are in fertile but they
are adoptive mothers. It's also for women who are still
single and desiring marriage and motherhood who yes, fulfill that
role and are just they're using their God given biological
gifts to motherhood. Long and moore, they will even be
wives and mothers. And I thought that was a really
beautiful part of the book also as I watch women
walk that out right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you can mother your friend. I mean, yes,
we have this capacity for motherhood. That and motherhood again,
isn't just about raising your own biological children. It's about
the way you approach the world. It's the way you
know you just what's what you bring to the workplace.
I mean, it's it's sort of it's everything, it's who
we are. And so I think that it's a when
I tell you, when you're in the midst of it
and when you're in the depths of despair, it's these
kind of thoughts they kind of skim right off, you know,
the surface.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So I was thinking, actually thinking about our podcast today
and think about what we might talk about. And I
know that I say in the book that I wrote
it for like the twenty year old, twenty five year
old me, the book I wish I had in my
twenty but I don't even I'm not sure I would
have been able to sort of stick with it, you know,
I think I don't, you know, so that makes me
sort of rethink that. I mean, I do think it's
it's it's important to think about a life that doesn't,
you know, your fertility journey doesn't end in pregnancy. And
I think that's good. I like to prove that we're
a positive example of you know what that looks like.
But you know, I think I think that, Uh, it's
really hard to listen. It's really hard to listen to anyone,
you know, unless it's someone calling you from the doctor's
office telling you that your blood test shows that you're pregnant,
you know, and so and again and again. That goes
back to what we talked about right at the at
the start of it, you know, taking this out of
the shadows, talking about it, writing about it, letting everyone
know about it, people understanding, people understanding what IVF is,
what that means. Why don't I just do IVF like
people have a kind of a working knowledge of that,
and you know, and also can can just empathy thighs more.
You can understand like what's that like? What do my
children mean to me? What would that have been like
if I hadn't been able to get pregnant, you know.
And then also I think too on our side, it's
our side, the infertility side. You know, it's can you
can get a little edge to you after a while.
And I think it's important to see, you know, the
crosses that other people carry. For instance, I mean, you know,
I know a couple who you know, they just sort
of like wave to each other across the room and
they have another child, and you know, that's been a
kind of a cross for them that sort of like
mega uber fertility financially for their other children, you know,
for her body. You know, when you get after eight kids,
you know, it's like it's a big thing. And so
I think that we too have we realize it. Just
everyone has their cross to carry, and they look different
and they feel different. And I think if we just
you know, if we don't like sort of rank them
is worse or I think that I have it worse
than you, or you have it worse than me, or
anything like that, I think it's just you know, we
just need to come together, get off our phones.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and try to make fewer assumptions. Because you're
right than that is a natural thing to do. But
it's just it doesn't help us, and it doesn't help
the people we're making assumptions about it's so hard not
to do.
Speaker 2: But oh it's so hard. Yeah, I know, you can
write their whole story just staring at the back of
their head and perch.
Speaker 1: How bad is that?
Speaker 2: It's bad so many levels? Is that? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And social media doesn't help with that either, because then
we think we know more about people than we do,
which is dangerous, a dangerous game. So this is totally
changing gears. And maybe this just shows my absolute ignorance
as it comes to these issues. But I can you
share what it was like breastfeeding your son, Like I
didn't know that you could breastfeed an adopted baby after
not having just given birth. Like I should have knowne
that because I knew you could like induce slactation, But
I just I'd never connected those dots and that part
just fascinated me. So I would love if you could
share a little bit about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I have this friend who makes a
couple of appearances in the book. She's actually one of
the people who has sent me a photo of her
in the book. She's already got it in the mail.
She was a friend of mine. She had a little
bit of trouble getting pregnant too, and so we had
sort of like, you know, talked about that together. But
then she did get pregnant, and she was a nurse midwife,
and you know, she was a big fan of nursing
and breastfeeding, and you know, I think it really was
her when I think she had told me about it,
and I thought that sounds great. But again, think you
think you have all this time, like you think adoption
is going to take a long time, which is sort
of why we started pursuing it almost immediately before we
even thought about seeing doctor Hilter's. But you know, with
our first it didn't really take very much time at all.
And I had about a week to get ready, two
weeks maybe, And I thought, Okay, I'm going to shelve
this breastfeeding things I can't on top of everything else.
You know, I've got this DuPont Circle apartment, I've got
to make get ready for a baby. I have nothing.
So she said to me, she was like, you know, Lee,
you know you would have wanted to do it. You
would have wanted to breastfeed your baby. That was a
thing that you liked, And but why don't you just
try Why don't you just go downtown to the Breastfeeding
Center of Washington and talk to a lactation consultant And
I'll tell you what listeners lactation consultants love. When adoptive
moms when a breastfeed, it's like they're like Mount Everest.
And again, I think there's a lot of different ways
to do it. I didn't have a lot of time,
and so I used what's called a supplemental nursing system
and SNS and some others use it when they have
a low milk supply. And it's kind of like a
juice box sized little canteen and you can hang in
around your neck with a string, and then you have
a catheter that meets up with your nipple and the
baby when the baby latches on. It's the tiniest, tiniest
little tube that takes the a formula or donated but
breast milk out of the canteen thing, and that it
also stimulates the prolactin in your body to then produce.
And I also took like supporting herbs and another medication
that UH is used for something else but off label
can have the side effect of producing cofectation and so
and THENK, yeah, so that worked for that worked for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the coolest thing. Like I read that
and I was my mind was blown and I was like,
this is awesome and I can't wait to ask her
about this because it's super cool.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so glad because I really like talking about it,
but I don't not everybody likes to talk about it,
so especially like once people are like, oh, we wanted
to tell you thanks for talking to us about infertility
or adoption whatever. We're adopting a baby, and I'm like,
you got to nurse it, and it's I come on
a little bit too strong, So I try not to
lead on that. But I think I think you're right.
I think a lot of people don't. I mean, I
had a book called like Breastfeeding the Adopted Baby, but
I think there's a lot a lot more information about
that now and a lot more lactatian consultants are familiar
with it. Yeah, but I uh, yeah, I recommend it.
It was really great. It's a nice, wonderful ax toosin booze.
It's nice to have your body cooperate and just do
something a little bit normal, but again it's I think
it takes it takes it. It's it's I think if
you can build a full supply, A lot of people
do that, a lot of people when they just start
the adoption process, we'll start the whole protocol with pumping
and end up being able to freeze some breast milk,
and then there's a whole big thing. I was. I
never had that time lead up time, so it was
more I mean we used to got recreational. It was
like more comfort nursing. I mean, I made some milk,
but we did have this supplement with formula. And my
kids are great and they had a lot of formula.
So I think no pressure either way, right.
Speaker 1: Right, totally. Well, there's so much that happens through breastfeeding too,
where like signals between your your body and the baby's
body and all of that. Does that occur in those
instances as well? I would imagine that it does to somethings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would think so. I think when you both
are like experienced like the oxytocin together, I think there's
something that happens there. I mean, yeah, I mean something's happened.
I mean, my kids are like barnacles. Even though they're
big now, they just want to be close to me
all the time. So I were kind of a huggy
family the Yeah, I mean it's just it's a it's
a very it's a very very special thing. And you know,
actually I've known even adoptive mothers who have not even
tried to induce the actual actation but have just comfort
nursed and and I think that's a beautiful thing too.
And I think that's something we don't talk about. I
think people think it's kind of weird. Some people think
just normal breastfeeding is weird. So I mean, you know,
I think you just got to do what's right for
you and your baby.
Speaker 1: I look at it just another another fruitful part of
the story. Like it's just super cool and like it
was redeemed. That was really really awesome, awesome. You talk
in the book also just about like entering into perimenopause
or the menopause part of your life and what you
call grieving fertility you never had. Can you just speak
to that a little bit and kind of what that
process has been like for you and and how you're
dealing with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really weird. I mean it's not weird, not
a very precise word, just I'm kind of in the
thick of it right now. Perimenopause is not for the
faint of heart, even though apparently we're all destined for it.
Speaker 1: It's so much about womanhood. Is not for the fate
of heart, right exactly.
Speaker 2: And it's just so many hormones and things going up
and down and deciding what to do and how to
treat it and and things. And I just I always wonder, too,
like if because there wasn't any you know, I think,
I bet. I mean, I'm surely if you let's see
your mom of like five or six, they becomes a
certain point in time where you know you haven't gotten
pregnant in two or three years. You think, okay, this
is this is where I am. Now, this isn't going
to happen. You know, You've had these kids and it's
I don't know, it's just there's just no It just
seems to last forever too. I mean, the perimenopausit I
mean they say ten fifteen years, there's no cutoff, you
know what I mean. So it was only really like
somehow it took I mean, somehow turning fifty I'm like, Okay,
this has got there's got to be it, you know,
because I've never I've never heard people like in their
late forties get pregnant. But also I think those people
have also been pregnant before. It's just I mean, it's
maybe my tongue tied, crazy nonsensical things shows you like
what those emotions are like, because it really is a
very strange thing because it's it's it's I mean, for me,
really it's just like sort of closing technically just closing
the chapter on menstruation hopefully, but you know, but at
the same time, it's it is it's I know, yes,
it's grieving for the fertility I never had, and to
always with that little bit of a hope, little tiny
hope that maybe you're gonna get pregnant. Maybe there's gonna
be some weird thing, because you know, like as you
get older, sometimes you like dump a couple extra eggs
out because your body's getting ready, and you know, maybe
one of those maybe you know, you never know, right,
you open to the possibility of a miracle and to
realize like, oh yeah, I'm not going to be one
of those stories for real. I mean that probably was true,
like you know, ten years ago, but it's a really
like it's really really happening now, you know. Yeah, yeah,
but I mean luckily we have. I mean, there seems
to be a whole commercial side to perimenopause.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: There must have been enough of us doing it. It's everywhere,
and everyone's least talking about that. There's an article about it.
I feel like in my news feed every other article.
Though I'm sure Big Brother is targeting me. I'm sure, yeah,
but yeah, it is strange to do that, to have
that kind of like, yeah, well, I mean, you know,
so I wrote the book, the end of the story,
the end of the story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and yet there is still so much more to
the story, like you have is it a three year old? Yes, yes,
so there is so much yet to be written. And
that's all too exciting that, you know, just because this
chapter is closing, like you you know, you may have
grand babies ahead, you may have you know, you still
have so much child rearing ahead. It's just it's also
such an exciting time, even though I'm sure there is
a lot of grief, just that a company is like
finally fully closing that chapter. But yeah, not the book.
There's a lot left to be written there, right, But.
Speaker 2: Even little things like you know that my youngest, because
I was forty seven when he was born, you know,
he's probably most likely not going to have any little siblings.
And it's again, it's like something that never really occurred
to me before that. Obviously, the last whenever who ever
is last, doesn't have any little siblings, right, But now
that I've growing up an only child too, those are
kind of things I'm learning just from seeing my own children,
but seeing how my middle too and my eldest you know,
are together, and the way my middle too like really
grew into brothers with the arrival of Gigi, our little one.
It's just you know, you think, like, oh, the last one,
the caboose, doesn't get you know, another caboose, right, yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's hard. That's hard. Well, maybe your oldest will
have children that will kind of take that that place,
that role. Oh yeah, he gets to experience what it's
like to be a big brother, even though they're not
his younger siblings.
Speaker 2: He is definitely a dead material. In fact, in his
little Montessori preschool, they did one of those videos when
they interview all the kids, like what do you want
to be when you grow up? And a fireman, A
princess bellerina, he said, A dad. So yeah, I think
we're gonna definitely get some grand babies out of so sweet.
Speaker 1: So see, you share in your book stories of friends
who have suffered with male factor infertility specifically, and you know,
of course, when you think about infertility, and this is
another assumption, but you think of a lot of husbands
supporting their wives through infertility and kind of what that
looks like. And of course there's there's a certain kind
of grief that accompanies, you know, men struggling through infertility,
but there's also so much of it that is, you know,
grieving not having a pregnancy, which is unique to women.
So it's just it's such a different thing that men
and women struggle with. But you know, specifically for couples
who who struggle with this male factor infertility, what you know,
how can wives love and support their husbands well through that?
Speaker 2: You know, I think it's just like how we can
do it through everything by listening, by asking the right questions,
as getting open, asking open ended questions understanding that they're
grieving might be different from yours. Being very careful not
to place any blame. I think men really, uh, because
so often it is something wrong, you know, going on
with the women that men really are husbands are just
like rise occasion and are just like princes to not
do that because we already feel guilty, you know, and
I think we have to be careful, you know, not
to do that to our husbands as well. I was
really glad that my friend contributed her story because I
actually didn't know until she shared it with me, but
that was why they were infertile. And I think because
people don't talk about it, people keep quiet about it,
and it's such a strange sort of I mean, I do, like,
you know, a man that's a protector and all those
masculine virtues, but it is sort of like an outdated
thing that we would think that, you know, he's somehow
less of a man because he's got some sort of
vascular issue that causes this problem, you know what I mean.
It's just a medical problem. And again I think that's
that's the next I mean, you know, that's another one
of the steps that that needs to be talked about
as well. And you know, I think that you know,
there's it's probably not a bad idea to address young
men to be like, these are the things that you
can do to make sure you know, or these are
the exams you should get, or you know, it's more
awareness that that actually is a thing that happens.
Speaker 1: It's not just the punchline, right right, Yeah, absolutely, and
that starts early. I mean there's so many things we
do to fuel our bodies, and you know, things that
men and women consume that you know, maybe women are
thinking about how it might affect their fertility, but men
might not be thinking about how it's affecting them. And
so the Yeah, they're very important conversations to have and
things to keep in mind. But at the end of
the day, you know that stuff can still happen, and
it's just like trying to trying to support and love
the best that you can.
Speaker 2: And I think, actually, oh so I was just going
to a little bit to it. I think that even
when it is female factor in fertility, wives really need
to remember that their husbands are grieving too, and it's
not just about you, and that so much the attention
is on you, but you're the one that's not pregnant,
You're the one of the doctors, You're the one having
the test. You're the one with the injections, but there's
you know, they're sad too. They're sad, and they're sad
for you. I mean, it's a very multi layered kind
of grieving that you're both doing together. And I think
it's important to take the time to listen and not
just assume that they're okay and that they're just there
to be your rock to lean on.
Speaker 1: Right, right, because infertility can take such a toll on marriages,
but at the same time also such a gift to
experience it in marriage because you are not doing it alone.
So you know, if if husbands and lives can support
each other, well, that is truly the best gift that
you could have when you're walking through something that is
one of the one of the most difficult things you
can walk through. To just to innately be doing it
with another person is just that, you know, that's a
sweet kindness from the Lord. Yes, yeah, to have that
support that's just built in, you know, No, it's amazing.
Speaking of support, how how would you advise friends who
maybe are very fertile or family members who are very fertile.
How can they best love and support and understand what
infertile couples are struggling with and how can they be
good friends to them? You know, it's hard to know,
Like you know, if you're struggling with it fertility, like
there's there's still going to be that pregnant friend that
you have or whatever, Like how does that person love
well without like, you know, it being in your face
that like they are not struggling with this thing. Like
that's a really tough dynamic. And I just love your.
Speaker 2: Really is it really is tough. And I think that
it sometimes can place that fertile person pregnant person in
an unfair position because, uh, you can have you can
have moments where that person can't do the right thing
for you. You know, they're just they have their everything, they
have everything that they want and you don't, and your
attitude's terrible. But I think if you know your true
loved ones, if they can sort of weather those days
along with I think some practical tips just in conversation
is not to make comparisons between yourself and them, or
comparisons or like say things like oh I wish I
could have a baby for you, or you know, you know,
lament your own fertility or things you know those are
those are just like sort of normal. I think rules
about talking to other people they apply here to you know. Again,
I think I think not excluding them from groups. You know,
I U when I first moved here, I joined, you know,
like most young moms do. You know. We all had
found each other through different ways, like at the gym
or through work or whatever. We had a little moms
group when we met every week, and our kids were
all about the same age. And a woman who I knew,
who had experienced in fertility for a while but was
adopting from China. She asked, but she could join our
group even before the baby came, and I think that
was that was really great for her because otherwise, you know,
she just she just felt like, you know, she wasn't
with this group, she wasn't with that group. And so
I think, you know, you know, I think you can
say things like, listen, I'm going to have these friends over.
Everyone's bringing their babies. Is this something you want to
do or something you don't want to do again, I
think bringing it up in the first place. If your
friend hasn't told you, but you suspect they're experiencing infertility,
that's the really hard part, but you know, I think
just the general like everybody, like, is there anything I
can pray for you about? Are you doing okay? Like
how's how are things going you guys have you know,
I think there are ways to open up without the pressure.
I think that's good because again they're already puting so
much pressure on themselves. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, before we close here, I just want to bring
it all back to the gospel because that really does
infuse so much of the book too. And I just
I was really struck. I was like making notes in
the margin as I was reading this part, but just
the concept of carrying your cross and everybody having a
different cross to carry, and I just this this quote
from Father Sebastian White, really, oh yeah, So to me,
it was so good, and it's so it's so obvious,
it's so it's such like an innate part of the Gospel,
Like this is not rocket science, this is basic stuff.
But as I was reading it, it was just it's
still just stuck out to me, and I was just
like kind of meditating on it and pondering how important
this is. You know, that quote is this is just
part of it, but it is precisely through the cross
that the Lord shows his love for us. And I
was just thinking about the fact that like Jesus died
on the cross that he asks us to carry, like
he does not ask more of us than he asked
of his own son. And it's just like that's a
hard thing to grasp, but it's also such a beautiful
and comforting thing that like the hardest things that we
go through are still just like he knows our suffering
because he's done that, like he he carried the cross
and died on the cross. Yes, yes, as a fan,
and I just yeah, just if you can talk a
little bit about what that means to you and how
how that has gotten you through some of these dark
you know.
Speaker 2: Somebody asked me a similar question recently, and I've been
thinking about it even this morning, and you know, I
do think that when we've talked a lot about it today,
about how infertility or pregnancy, all of it and just
being a woman is just I mean, it really is
true for everyone, but it's just like just a fleshy experiences,
you know, like we're dealing with we're dealing with sex,
we're dealing with checkups, we're dealing with blood and all
kinds of fluids, and you know things and the limits
of your body, and you know you can have this
will and this heart and the soul that desires motherhood,
and your body is not cooperating, and you're suffering, and
you live in this world in time, and you realize
that God did that too. God entered the world. God
entered time as a man and suffered, and it's it's humbling.
And when you embrace that and pick up your cross
and carry it, you feel drawn into Jesus. And we know,
not to me, he suffered, died on the cross, and
the cross is now a symbol of joy and love.
And so that's what we find. We find that good
news is salvation in that through his suffering. And I
think when you just realize the mirror I mean this,
like the fact that God became man for us put
suffering in this sort of corporal way in her perspective, yeah,
you know, yeah.
Speaker 1: And just the way that he the example of Christ
through his suffering, and just you know, I I'm reading
in the Book of Luke right now, and I've been
reading about you know that the crowds are pressing it
on him and Jesus is just like finding a desolate
place to pray, like he is God incarnate, and yet
he is just constantly communing with the Father. And then
you know as he's facing his own crucifixion, which is
he it's his whole mission, like it's what he knows
he's here to do, he was born to do this thing,
and he's still just pleading with the Father that like
if there's any way And obviously, you know when he's
talking about the cup passing, he's talking about the cup
of God's wrath, like he's talking about the punishment for sin,
and yet you know there's so much of that that
we do where we just plead with the Father, like
if there is any way that you can let this
difficult thing that I really don't want to do pass
and so that I don't have to experience it, like
please please do that. And just like the fact that
that cup did not pass, it was poured out full
on Christ and like the redemption that we can have
through that reality and just like on such a smaller scale,
but no less real. You know, we experience these things
that we plead with the Father, like if there's any
way that we don't have to do this thing, please
you know, and sometimes he takes it away and sometimes
we He marches us right through it and there is
no you know, there is still so much joy and
so much redemption. And it's just like such a picture
of what we experience in Christ, all of that fullness.
But we can also experience that like as we commune
with God and as he does, like as he does
call us to suffer like Christ suffered. And yet there
is joy and there is love, and there is redemption.
And I just I was reminded of that with your book.
It was so encouraging to me. Everybody can get Lee's
book now because by the time this errs, it will
be out. That's so exciting. Don't sleep on that. Go
get a copy of Lee's book. You will not regret it.
Speaker 3: Lee.
Speaker 1: Where can people buy your book and where can they
find you online for more content and just more of
your thoughts and to follow up?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can follow me at well, you can look
at my website leaf fitzpatricksneed dot com. You can also
follow my work at the Catholic Association dot org. You
can order my book at Barnsnoble or Amazon, but it'd
be best if you ordered it from Sophia Institute Press.
Speaker 1: Awesome, that's always good to know. Yeah, don't give your
money to Amazon, give it to give it to Sofia
Institute Press. So, Lee, thank you so much for your
time today. It was truly a pleasure to.
Speaker 2: Talk to you.
Speaker 1: And I'm so excited to hear just everybody's feedback on
your book because I know they're going to love it.
So thanks again for being here. Thank you, Thank you
so much for tuning in to this week's episode of
The Kylie Cast. If you haven't done so already, please
like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you
never miss an episode. Leave us a five star review.
It's such an easy way for you to help out
the show so much. And go get a copy of
Lee Fitzpatrick Sneed's brand new book, Infertile but Fruitful is
a delightful read and you will not be disappointed. I
will be right back here next week with more so
until then, just remember the truth hurts, but it won't
kill you.