Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Batflips and Nerds, the Baseball Podcast
Speaker 1: with a British twist. I am your host, Ben Carter,
Speaker 1: and I'm joined this evening by one of my regular campadres,
Speaker 1: Darius Austin.
Speaker 2: Darius, how are you.
Speaker 3: I'm doing all right. I'm looking forward to talking to
Speaker 3: some baseball nonsense, some fairly ludicrous stories this week, and yeah,
Speaker 3: it should be an interesting one.
Speaker 2: It should be.
Speaker 1: We're also joined by one of our not so regular campadres,
Speaker 1: with someone who has been with us before and I'm
Speaker 1: sure will be again in future. It's Nick Wright of
Speaker 1: La Angels UK MLBUK Clubhouse.
Speaker 2: How are you, Nick?
Speaker 4: I'm very good, very tired, but very good. I did
Speaker 4: the tripleheader this week, staying out for the two forty
Speaker 4: am starts against the Blue Jays, so I've done all
Speaker 4: three of them this week.
Speaker 5: So yeah, very fresh.
Speaker 1: Ready to true sicko for staying up for the Angels.
Speaker 1: I have to say that is more than I can
Speaker 1: muster for my Rockies. But hopefully we're not cutting into
Speaker 1: your nap time now in doing this and you're able
Speaker 1: to catch the game a bit later tonight.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 4: I mean we'll see it is not the most enticing
Speaker 4: matchup right now, so we'll see how it. Guys, it's Friday,
Speaker 4: nothing really to get up for on a Saturday morning,
Speaker 4: so actually probably be rude, not too, wouldn't it.
Speaker 2: That's a spirit.
Speaker 1: We've got some fun stuff to talk about today. We're
Speaker 1: going to talk, as Darius said, through some some recent
Speaker 1: baseball stories, some teams that are good, some teams that
Speaker 1: are are not good, and we're going to finish it
Speaker 1: off with kind of a fun discussion around who are
Speaker 1: the ten best players in baseball? Which sounds like a
Speaker 1: very simple question, but I think also is quite a
Speaker 1: complex question. So we're going to get into that and
Speaker 1: a bit of a debate around that. So let's kick off,
Speaker 1: I guess with a few of the news stories. I'm
Speaker 1: going to go back a little bit for the first
Speaker 1: one because I don't think we've podcasted since the news broke.
Speaker 1: But GB Baseball will announced their new head coach. It
Speaker 1: will be Brad Marcellino, who is hising coordinator for the
Speaker 1: Arizona Diamondbacks. A former GB player, he has been a
Speaker 1: long time sort of coach and assistant in the GB
Speaker 1: system too. I think has done several tournaments with them,
Speaker 1: including the previous WBC very well respected, it seems within
Speaker 1: the organization and within within the game. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to pretend to know a lot about about Brad, but
Speaker 1: I know guys like Russan and John have have met
Speaker 1: him and speak very highly of him, and that everyone
Speaker 1: within the game seems to see this as a good hire.
Speaker 1: Any strong thoughts from neither of you guys on on
Speaker 1: Brad or does this just seem like a very sensible
Speaker 1: move for a team that they needed to make a
Speaker 1: decision quite quickly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Brad's got a long history with the
Speaker 3: GB setup, played for US for a long time, well
Speaker 3: respected coaching career. You know, he's been with the Mariners,
Speaker 3: with the Dbacks currently, and yeah, it's been around the
Speaker 3: GB setup for a long time. So everybody I know
Speaker 3: who's been with that team and around it has spoken
Speaker 3: very highly of him. So I think he's got a
Speaker 3: lot of useful experience to bring. You know, he's been there,
Speaker 3: he's done that. He's been either on the team or
Speaker 3: coaching with the team for a long time. So yeah,
Speaker 3: sad to see Drew go. We all know what a
Speaker 3: great guy Drew was, But as we saw with Liam
Speaker 3: before him and Drew picking up that mantle. I think
Speaker 3: Brad's a great person to step in and take over
Speaker 3: that position and really take this team to the next level.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's just really it's just a smart move.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's been a system that's been on the up.
Speaker 4: We all saw what happened at the last WBC. We've
Speaker 4: seen what Drew has been able to do with Team
Speaker 4: GB and getting them to this place where it was
Speaker 4: just getting a bit more recognition. Isn't it a bit
Speaker 4: more impetus behind it? We all know it's slow progress
Speaker 4: and we all want to see it climb quicker. But
Speaker 4: getting that person in who knows the system, knows what's
Speaker 4: been doing well and could probably just carry that on.
Speaker 5: I think it's just smart.
Speaker 4: And as you say, everyone I've spoken to that has
Speaker 4: met him, had a conversation with him, says he's the
Speaker 4: right choice, and I trust their judgment and John's as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't know about John's judgment, but we'll let this
Speaker 1: one slide. Yeah, big shoester fill. Of course, in less
Speaker 1: than twelve months until the WBC, there's you know, the
Speaker 1: Olympics looming large in the background. So yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: big job for bad Steppinty, but like you say, it's
Speaker 1: a sensible higher. He seems like the right man for
Speaker 1: the job, and we obviously wish him the best and
Speaker 1: hopefully we'll get him on to the podcast and chat
Speaker 1: with him at some point soon once once he settled
Speaker 1: into the role a little bit. In other baseball news,
Speaker 1: a couple of stories this week. The Pirates were the
Speaker 1: first to move in the sacking the manager department. I
Speaker 1: don't know who had where they were in the betting
Speaker 1: ods or who had them to go first with this,
Speaker 1: but Derek Shelton is the unfortunate man who loses his
Speaker 1: job only, you know, a month into the season. Bench
Speaker 1: coach Don Kelly, I think one time Tiger's legend possibly
Speaker 1: other teams is in as the new manager, and I
Speaker 1: think he's been named the sort of permanent manager rather
Speaker 1: than just an interim, which obviously a big leap of
Speaker 1: faith in him. Pirates obviously off to a rough start.
Speaker 1: This would be happening if they weren't. Was this a
Speaker 1: bit knee jerk for you, Darius, or is this a
Speaker 1: matter of them, you know, having sort run their course
Speaker 1: with Shelton.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think this is Bob Nothing trying to
Speaker 3: do something that makes him appear like he cares about
Speaker 3: the team's success without actually spending any money. Basically, I
Speaker 3: don't know why this would be the time to decide that,
Speaker 3: you know, it's the end of the line, as opposed
Speaker 3: to any other point in the past five years. I
Speaker 3: think they've won a maximum of seventy six games in
Speaker 3: that period, and so yeah, it's just, oh, let's try
Speaker 3: and appear like we're doing something to get the team going.
Speaker 3: The parents aren't going anywhere. They're not going to spend
Speaker 3: any money to go anywhere, they're not going to make
Speaker 3: any trades to go anywhere. But firing the manager is
Speaker 3: an easy way to look like you are doing something.
Speaker 3: So I think that's all is. I'm sure not much
Speaker 3: is going to change with Don Kelly. Yeah, Tiger's legend
Speaker 3: are very well respected to go around the game from
Speaker 3: what I understand, But yeah, I don't think this is
Speaker 3: going to make a big difference to the Pirate's fortunes.
Speaker 5: Agree more, and I mean they have even mean trying
Speaker 5: to win.
Speaker 4: That's the point. I mean, we know this across the
Speaker 4: major leagues. We see it all the time where guys
Speaker 4: are ready to come up, guys are ready to contribute,
Speaker 4: Guys are better than the people you have in the majors,
Speaker 4: but they don't. Bubba Chandler being the prime example, right,
Speaker 4: they've held him down. He's absolutely dominating in the minors,
Speaker 4: and yet he's still there this Pirates team. I know
Speaker 4: that actually pitching's are not really their problem, and hitting
Speaker 4: very much is. However, just solidify that area, get him
Speaker 4: in there with schemes. I mean, why not, right at
Speaker 4: this point if you're trying to win, but they don't
Speaker 4: seem to be. And as Darius says, it's a bit
Speaker 4: of a desperation move to try and show something, show
Speaker 4: that he cares, show that they're trying to win. But
Speaker 4: in reality, anybody that's got half a brain cell and
Speaker 4: follows the team or follows baseball can see that it
Speaker 4: is just that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm never sure how much impact managers have any way.
Speaker 1: To be honest, I'm sure it's more about, you know,
Speaker 1: clubhouse chemistry and how well the guys respect them and
Speaker 1: kind of keeping a group together over the course of
Speaker 1: a very long, arduous season. So yeah, it very much
Speaker 1: feels like window dressing. Doesn't it made a change. Things
Speaker 1: will be different now, but like you say, the fundamental
Speaker 1: flaws with that franchise stay the same, and it's a
Speaker 1: shame because they have very exciting players as your reference.
Speaker 1: But yeah, looking like another fairly lost season for them.
Speaker 1: We'll see how Don Kelly gets on. Good luck to him.
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem likely. This is the beginning of a
Speaker 1: sort of Pittsburgh Pirates renaissance. Our final story a more
Speaker 1: sort of light hearted one, I guess, depending on whether
Speaker 1: you're a Red Sox fan or not. Last night, there
Speaker 1: were some pretty explosive quotes that came out in the press.
Speaker 1: I don't have the exact phrase in front of me,
Speaker 1: and I think, actually it is a point of contention
Speaker 1: about how well translated these quotes have been in the
Speaker 1: press that Raphael Devers gave after the game last night.
Speaker 1: I believe the crux of it is there's a conversation
Speaker 1: that was had between him and their general manager around
Speaker 1: him moving to first base. Obviously, long term injury to
Speaker 1: Tristan kas who also missed a lot of time last year,
Speaker 1: Redzocks had got a major hole there. I think the
Speaker 1: idea was that he could potentially fill in there, especially
Speaker 1: with Bregman obviously holding down the fourth third. There was
Speaker 1: the whole debarkle One's bring training about him dhing that
Speaker 1: sort of blew over. It's now exploded again with him
Speaker 1: saying something to the effect of, I don't think it'd
Speaker 1: be a good idea. I would need time to prepare
Speaker 1: for it. I'm not very comfortable with doing that. That
Speaker 1: has sort of turned into Devi's refuses to play. First,
Speaker 1: He's a selfish player. The way the Boston media loves
Speaker 1: to run with these stories, Nick, is this an overreaction
Speaker 1: or is this raffie Devers taking his money and taking
Speaker 1: his ball home and not wanting to play.
Speaker 4: That's exactly what I was going to say. It's exactly
Speaker 4: what it is. And I think this speaks to the
Speaker 4: problem of guarantee contracts in baseball, and there's pros and
Speaker 4: cons to it, and we see it in other sports.
Speaker 4: You see in the NFL the loyalty and how they
Speaker 4: can cut players and they're not performing, but also ask
Speaker 4: them to restructure with loads of money left on the table.
Speaker 4: In baseball, they can't. He's got this contract, he's got
Speaker 4: this money whatever. He doesn't have to perform to get it.
Speaker 4: I see it, and I speak as someone that's seen
Speaker 4: this franchise where we've had players come in. Anthony Rendin
Speaker 4: the prime example, he got his bag and he didn't
Speaker 4: care anymore. He didn't need to. He dictated every terms
Speaker 4: when he didn't want to play when he was brew.
Speaker 4: I'm not playing baseball and Devas. I'm not saying Devas
Speaker 4: is going down that path because Devis can still perform
Speaker 4: at a pretty high level, but he doesn't need to.
Speaker 4: He does have the incentive now to go out there
Speaker 4: and do whatever the manager wants and help the team
Speaker 4: in that way. Some players have it, some players don't.
Speaker 4: And I think what we saw in the off season,
Speaker 4: what we see now is Devis just doesn't have that
Speaker 4: same drive and desire and willingness to be a team
Speaker 4: player and to win as others we've seen in history.
Speaker 1: It's one thing, Darius for Devis to not want to
Speaker 1: play first or DH whatever it might be. He wouldn't
Speaker 1: be the first star player who wants to play on
Speaker 1: his turn to a certain Derek Gea comes to mind.
Speaker 1: He wasn't keen on moving positions. But it is something
Speaker 1: different to maybe air that out in the press in
Speaker 1: the way that Devers has quite publicly now and not
Speaker 1: keep this behind closed doors. He's effectively, you know, gone
Speaker 1: into the face of Craig Breslo and basically ed out
Speaker 1: their dirty laundry in public. Is that more a concerned
Speaker 1: to you than any of the actual detail around where
Speaker 1: he plays and how comfortable he is at that position.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so, not just from Davis's side. I
Speaker 3: don't think we talked about this, you know, early in
Speaker 3: the season when it was the Bregman controversy, and we said, like,
Speaker 3: somebody should have had this conversation before it got out
Speaker 3: in the press. You know, it shouldn't have been this
Speaker 3: this situation. Somebody should have briefed him. There should have
Speaker 3: been a chat.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: It didn't seem like it had been handled well. Then
Speaker 3: the espionation over the Monster blog did have some clarifying comments.
Speaker 3: Somebody who obviously speaks Spanish had actually had a go
Speaker 3: at listening to the interview themselves, and they kind of
Speaker 3: suggested that maybe the you know, the initial comments about
Speaker 3: first base were slightly overblown in that I think he
Speaker 3: was trying to say, I've never played first base, so
Speaker 3: I'm not going to be able to do it right away.
Speaker 3: But the stuff about the front office is, you know,
Speaker 3: not a mistranslation. He was clearly taking a shot at Breslo,
Speaker 3: basically saying, you guys should go and sign a first basement.
Speaker 3: That's your problem, you know, Romey Gonzalez, Abraham Torro probably
Speaker 3: not the answer long term. And I think he's saying,
Speaker 3: you know, you shouldn't expect me to learn first base
Speaker 3: on the fly when you should. You know, the organization,
Speaker 3: the Boston Red Sox have enough resources to just go
Speaker 3: out and get somebody. I think that's what he's trying
Speaker 3: to get over that said, you know, he could just
Speaker 3: try and learn to play first base. It would be
Speaker 3: a good configuration for them, especially with Yashida hopefully coming
Speaker 3: back at some point. Even just having the DH spot
Speaker 3: for them to rotate would be beneficial. I think given
Speaker 3: the amount of talent they've got with Maya and Anthony
Speaker 3: still in the miners, you know, just having that option.
Speaker 3: At the moment, they're looking pretty stuck with a lot
Speaker 3: of these guys. They don't have places to play them.
Speaker 3: If Devis could play first then they would have a
Speaker 3: lot of flexibility. So I think it would really help
Speaker 3: them a lot and he doesn't seem that interested in
Speaker 3: doing it to help them out. Now. I don't know
Speaker 3: the extent to which the relationship has broken down between
Speaker 3: him and Breslow. I don't think he's got a problem
Speaker 3: with Korra, doesn't sound like he's got a problem with
Speaker 3: any of his teammates, So on that front, I think
Speaker 3: it's probably okay. But yeah, it's not a great situation.
Speaker 3: And the only silver lining is that he doesn't seem
Speaker 3: to be actually affecting his performance on the field, you know,
Speaker 3: if he's just hitting like he always does, So that's
Speaker 3: that's the plus side. But I think at some point
Speaker 3: Romean Gonzalez is going to stop hitting like an All
Speaker 3: star and then they're going to have to make a
Speaker 3: difficult decision about what they're doing here. Do they go
Speaker 3: and get somebody to other just say here's the first place,
Speaker 3: go Rafi, go and go and play over there.
Speaker 1: There's one thing that Moneyball taught us, it's that it's
Speaker 1: normally easy to play first base. Yeah, I think yeah,
Speaker 1: Nix's manager actually was the person who came out with
Speaker 1: the with that line or lines to that effect in
Speaker 1: the movie. But it's interesting with the Red Sox I
Speaker 1: don't know if you guys have watched it, but the
Speaker 1: documentary about their their season last year on Netflix. I
Speaker 1: am almost through it now, going very slowly. I'd say
Speaker 1: Devers is conspicuous by how inconspicuous he is in that
Speaker 1: he barely features at all, given he is their star player.
Speaker 2: Again, that might be a language thing.
Speaker 1: He's not comfortable being interviewed in English or even Spanish
Speaker 1: flag matter and being mistranslated, as it seems like may
Speaker 1: have happened a couple of times this year. But he
Speaker 1: certainly doesn't play a big role, whereas Bresway very much does,
Speaker 1: and maybe there is just a slight tension there between
Speaker 1: those two, you know. I think Cora is particularly well
Speaker 1: loved by that team and especially the Latin players, who
Speaker 1: obviously has a very good relationship with. But maybe there
Speaker 1: is a little bit more friction between the front office
Speaker 1: and Breslon in particular, and some of those players then
Speaker 1: is let on and it's not great if that starts
Speaker 1: to air out in public. Not a good sign for
Speaker 1: the team if you know your star player is calling
Speaker 1: on you to to take action and sign someone, so
Speaker 1: we'll see what comes of it. Not a great sign,
Speaker 1: but as you say, if Devis continues to hit, and
Speaker 1: he has done since that horrible stretch to start the season,
Speaker 1: then I imagine it it'll work its way through. Before
Speaker 1: we get into our sort of top ten discussion, I
Speaker 1: thought we could have a look at some overforming and
Speaker 1: underperforming teams, or good teams of band teams as I've
Speaker 1: called them in a running order. Let's start with some
Speaker 1: good teams. The Seattle Mariners. They are on fire. I
Speaker 1: believe this is their best start to a season since
Speaker 1: two thousand and three. They have a lineup that seems
Speaker 1: to be able to hit, led by Big Dumper himself
Speaker 1: fifty one home runs as a team, fourth and major
Speaker 1: League Baseball that was act as of yesterday at least,
Speaker 1: do they finally have a lineup that can hit? And
Speaker 1: obviously for a long time we talked about how good
Speaker 1: their rotation is and continues to be, and they do
Speaker 1: even have reinforcement on the way in the pitching department
Speaker 1: as well. Nick, you obviously get to see them play
Speaker 1: a lot every season. Should we be taking the Mariners
Speaker 1: for real? Or is this another mirage in what feels
Speaker 1: like two decades of mirages for the Mariners?
Speaker 4: I think it's somewhere in the middle. I think you
Speaker 4: can take them seriously. I think they're a good team.
Speaker 4: I think you also know that ultimately they will let
Speaker 4: you down when it comes to the crunch. I think
Speaker 4: one thing is pretty consistent over the years is the
Speaker 4: Mariners don't quite reach the heights that some people expect
Speaker 4: them to. I mean, this is a weird season though,
Speaker 4: because this offseason, I know Maris fans were pretty despondent
Speaker 4: at the sort of moves that they were making, didn't
Speaker 4: feel like they were making any real effort to improve,
Speaker 4: felt very light on the hitting front, and just thought
Speaker 4: that this was a team that was going to be
Speaker 4: so reliant on its pitching that actually they're going to
Speaker 4: lose too many close games because they don't have those
Speaker 4: big hits. And it hasn't panned out like that so far.
Speaker 4: As you say, col Rally just looks like the best
Speaker 4: catcher in baseball are both both sides of the ball.
Speaker 5: They are a good team.
Speaker 4: I do expect they're hitting to slow down a little bit.
Speaker 4: I don't think the preseason expectations were that far wrong
Speaker 4: on what the lineup looks like as it's constructed, But
Speaker 4: you never know. As we know, you can get a
Speaker 4: bit of momentum in baseball and it takes you a
Speaker 4: long way. Clearly, the confidence is up. Clearly that rotation
Speaker 4: is legitimate, and there are pieces to come back into it.
Speaker 4: So I think the Mariners are a playoff team. I
Speaker 4: think they're going to be right up there in the
Speaker 4: division all year. I mean, I don't think the division
Speaker 4: is as strong as maybe at the top end, as
Speaker 4: some people thought it could be, although they're all relatively
Speaker 4: good teams other than US, I don't know how strong
Speaker 4: it is, but I think let's wait and see. With
Speaker 4: the Mariners, I think they're good. I don't think they
Speaker 4: will get over the line when it comes to playoff time,
Speaker 4: but I think they're probably just enjoying it right now.
Speaker 1: It does feel like this is going to make the
Speaker 1: inevitable September slump that much more painful, doesn't it, Darius?
Speaker 1: Is there reason to believe this is sustain this is
Speaker 1: for real?
Speaker 3: I mean they were especially bad last year. They seem
Speaker 3: to have maybe fixed a little bit of their strikeout issue.
Speaker 3: You know, they had some turnover at hitting coach, but
Speaker 3: you know, juje planco is hitting way over his head.
Speaker 3: I don't expect JP Crawford to have a four or
Speaker 3: eight OBP at the end of the season. You know,
Speaker 3: you don't look at this line up and go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: these guys are doing what I expect them to do. Yeah,
Speaker 3: Judio is probably gonna have a bit of line at
Speaker 3: the end of the year. But apart from that, you
Speaker 3: pretty much expect everybody else to go in the opposite direction.
Speaker 3: So I don't see where the reinforcements are coming from.
Speaker 3: They've kind of had a couple of injuries as well.
Speaker 3: You know, Luke Rody was starting to hit well and
Speaker 3: then he went down. They've obviously got Ryan Bliss. You know,
Speaker 3: for most of the season, there's not a lot of
Speaker 3: hitting depth in the miners for this team. And is
Speaker 3: Jerry going to go and make a trade to boss
Speaker 3: of this lineup? History has said no basically, So yeah,
Speaker 3: I think they're going to fall off. The good news
Speaker 3: their pitching hasn't been that good, I suppose, And if
Speaker 3: Kirby comes back and Gilbert comes back and they pitch
Speaker 3: like aces, then you maybe this looks more like the
Speaker 3: Mariners we expected, and they might have already got enough
Speaker 3: wins in the bank to get over the line. But
Speaker 3: we don't have much confidence in this team doing what
Speaker 3: it takes to say, let's go out, and being not
Speaker 3: a five win team, you know they're going to sit
Speaker 3: on their hands. I think and hope that this is
Speaker 3: what they've got is enough?
Speaker 2: Sounds about right.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I have a bit of a soft spot for the Mariners,
Speaker 1: so I do hope they're able to to hold on
Speaker 1: and make it through and then that horrible streak, but
Speaker 1: history is not on their side. Another team I have
Speaker 1: a soft spot four, much more publicly than New York Mets.
Speaker 1: They look like the team to beat in the NLAST
Speaker 1: right now. They run the French Show. I believe it's
Speaker 1: the best in the National League. They are hitting particularly well.
Speaker 1: I think their line up was good on paper. It
Speaker 1: looks even better to start the season, partly because Peter
Speaker 1: Lonzo has turned into Babury's reincarnate with a two o
Speaker 1: one WRC plus making that contact look very good already.
Speaker 1: And that's with yeah, one say to you're not really
Speaker 1: getting out of first gear yet on the hitting side.
Speaker 1: So have you been impressed with with what you've seen
Speaker 1: from the Mets? I mean again, another team where heartbreaks
Speaker 1: seems to always be around the corner. But it feels
Speaker 1: like with the rotation that's sort of surviving a lot
Speaker 1: of the injuries they had in pre season, and a
Speaker 1: lineup that's starting to click, they could well be, you know,
Speaker 1: up there with with the Phillies at the end of
Speaker 1: the year, and obviously can take advantage of the fact that
Speaker 1: the Braves have been pretty sluggish to start the year.
Speaker 5: Nick, yeah, I must have been.
Speaker 4: I haven't watched too much of Mets baseball, but have
Speaker 4: seen the results coming in and seen some of the
Speaker 4: stuff in social media. And Pete Alonso for example, he
Speaker 4: couldn't have landed back in a better spot. I mean,
Speaker 4: all the talk of him trying to go elsewhere and
Speaker 4: get more money elsewhere, this was the team for him.
Speaker 4: This was the place to be and surely there's going
Speaker 4: to be an opt out again. I think he can
Speaker 4: opt out Karnie in the winter. You'd have thought he's
Speaker 4: going to want a proper long term contract here. He
Speaker 4: kind of got that halfway house contract, lots of money
Speaker 4: up front, but not the long term security. But he
Speaker 4: looks great when Sota. I'm not actually surprised he's had
Speaker 4: a slowish start, but it's just that it's slow ish, right,
Speaker 4: It's still good. He's still a very good baseball player.
Speaker 4: He's still going to be an exceptional baseball player for
Speaker 4: the Mets for a very long period of time. We
Speaker 4: know that there. You don't just suddenly fall off when
Speaker 4: you're that talented. So I think they've got to be
Speaker 4: excited that once Soto finds his feet a bit within that,
Speaker 4: that they've just got more to come. And I think, yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean, I think the Mets are legitimate. I don't
Speaker 4: think that division. I think that division is quite fragile
Speaker 4: as well. I mean I think the Phillies are quite fragile.
Speaker 4: They seem very up and down at the moment. I
Speaker 4: think they can go on some hot streaks, but also
Speaker 4: can go on some cold ones as well. So yeah,
Speaker 4: I think if you're a Mets fan and you're looking
Speaker 4: at where the team is now and what's to come,
Speaker 4: I think you've got to be excited that it feels
Speaker 4: like they might have found the right formula this year.
Speaker 1: Gone, Darius put some cold water on us. This rotation
Speaker 1: is not going to keep going like this forever. It's
Speaker 1: going to fall apart at some point. There'll be injuries,
Speaker 1: Thendor can't continue like this. Alonzo can't continue like this, Canny.
Speaker 3: I don't think Alonso can continue like this. No, I
Speaker 3: mean Lindor is lind Or. It's unusual for him to
Speaker 3: have a decent start, to be fair, Normally he starts
Speaker 3: super slow and then turns it on later. Yeah. I
Speaker 3: don't think Peter Alongso is going to have a you know,
Speaker 3: two hundred WRC plus all season, probably not going to happen.
Speaker 3: He might still drive in one hundred and forty, you know,
Speaker 3: but based on where he's sitting in the lineup, you
Speaker 3: would you would kind of expect that if you've got
Speaker 3: Lindor and so so ahead of you, that that's kind
Speaker 3: of be expected. Yeah, I think the rotation is probably
Speaker 3: not going to hold up. It's it's not an all
Speaker 3: star cast, is it, Like you know, Tyler mcgillige in
Speaker 3: number three.
Speaker 4: It's it's it's kind of Griffin Cannings in there.
Speaker 3: Gryffin Canning's pitching all right, Yeah, but you know again.
Speaker 5: That will fall off.
Speaker 3: Claim is not going to pitch hundred and eighty innings,
Speaker 3: is it? Griffin Canning is not going to pitch hundred
Speaker 3: and eighty innings. Where is this rotation in mid August?
Speaker 3: That's what I'm looking at here, Like there could be
Speaker 3: a lot of holes. Code I think obviously missed most
Speaker 3: of last season. Yeah, it's it's good dicey. I would
Speaker 3: expect this team to go out of the deadline and
Speaker 3: try and get a big, big name, you know, who
Speaker 3: can we count on. Who's who's pitching for a team,
Speaker 3: who's out of it, who we know is going to
Speaker 3: make thirty two starts. I think that's what this team
Speaker 3: needs to really kind of cement themselves because that that
Speaker 3: is where the weakness is. Tyler Anderson to me, pitching great,
Speaker 3: Tyler Anderson, Yeah, no problem. It always goes out there,
Speaker 3: takes the ball every firth day, can count.
Speaker 5: What they need.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that that's where it's going to fall apart.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, I have no concerns about lind Or,
Speaker 3: no concerns about Soto. Alonso is going to do what
Speaker 3: he does. That the lineup is solid. But yeah, I
Speaker 3: think that that rotation you could see them going into
Speaker 3: the playoffs and being like, who is the top three here?
Speaker 3: Because it looks sweet.
Speaker 1: It does, let's let's get across up pigeon we get
Speaker 1: to it.
Speaker 2: It's my view.
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about the Tigers and maybe
Speaker 1: just about the Al Central, which has gone from being
Speaker 1: you know, the worst vision in baseball to the best.
Speaker 1: Question mark. The Tigers look great. They now have the
Speaker 1: best run to friendship in baseball. Don't know how much
Speaker 1: credit we give them for that, because they just put
Speaker 1: about forty runs past the Rockies in the last three nights.
Speaker 1: But we'll get onto them later. But the Tigers look
Speaker 1: for real. You know that the heavy Bayer's renaissance, I
Speaker 1: think greatly enjoying in center field. He looks very much
Speaker 1: at home out there. He's actually hitting for once. What
Speaker 1: looked like one of the worst contracts in baseball is
Speaker 1: maybe starting to come around a little bit. Although again,
Speaker 1: you know, five weeks worth of sample size, don't want
Speaker 1: to read too much into that. But we know that
Speaker 1: there's you know, weapons at the top of this rotation.
Speaker 1: We know that the lineup has some upside to it.
Speaker 1: Is there reason to think that, you know, the Tigers
Speaker 1: have kind of made that jump into being competitive that
Speaker 1: they basically showed they could do last year at the
Speaker 1: end of the season, Darius.
Speaker 3: I think there are bits of this, you can believe
Speaker 3: in Spencer Tougilson seems to have finally figured it out.
Speaker 3: You know, the promise if you'd said this, and having
Speaker 3: three years ago, I don'tbody we've been surprised. I think now,
Speaker 3: given that we've seen all the struggles, is somewhat more surprising.
Speaker 3: But this is the kind of offensive player people thought
Speaker 3: he would be when he got drafted, and it's just
Speaker 3: taken him a really long time to figure it out.
Speaker 3: Avi Baias has always been a tremendously fun player to watch,
Speaker 3: but I don't think an awful lot has changed. You know,
Speaker 3: he's got an insane babbi and I think the offensive
Speaker 3: production is going to create her. The good news is
Speaker 3: it seems to have taken well to playing center very quickly.
Speaker 3: He's always been immenseally talented at everything other than making
Speaker 3: contact with the baseball, so I believe in that that
Speaker 3: part of it. You know, I think he can be
Speaker 3: a useful utility guy. But I think if you're counting
Speaker 3: on him to hit like this the rist of the way,
Speaker 3: you're probably going to be pretty disappointed. They've arguably got
Speaker 3: the best starting picture in baseball on the team that
Speaker 3: never hurts and yeah, I think I think the lineup
Speaker 3: is a concern. You know, it gets thin pretty fast.
Speaker 3: It's a lot of mixing and matching. They've got some
Speaker 3: injury concerns in there from some of the better guys
Speaker 3: as well. So yeah, I'm not like a big believer
Speaker 3: in the Tigers that this level of production. But can
Speaker 3: they win this division? Can they make the playoffs? Absolutely
Speaker 3: with someone do it last year and I think they've
Speaker 3: probably had a worse team last year, So yeah, I
Speaker 3: think they can. They can do it, And I think
Speaker 3: the Ale Center is not super strong despite you know,
Speaker 3: the run totals, the win totals, at the moment, I
Speaker 3: think it's still pretty weak division. So yeah, it's going
Speaker 3: to be a right for the Tigers. I think they'll
Speaker 3: be competitive all year, but maybe tempered the expectations offensively
Speaker 3: a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The other team in that division getting headlines right now
Speaker 1: I'm representing them today is the Royals, who have been
Speaker 1: on the great run of late. I think they've won
Speaker 1: fifteen of seventeen. Again, maybe you can point us some
Speaker 1: of their opponents over that stretch as a reason for that,
Speaker 1: but certainly, you know they're showing they're going to hang
Speaker 1: around and be competitive. We spoke a little bit about
Speaker 1: questioning how sustainable their formances last year were when they had,
Speaker 1: you know, two young candidates and a ten win season
Speaker 1: from Bobby Witt. But it looks like Bobby Whitt's going
Speaker 1: to be just a ten win player going forward, and
Speaker 1: that rotation still has really good pictures in it. Reagans
Speaker 1: looks great again. Are the guys that have stepped up
Speaker 1: and performed as well?
Speaker 2: Nick? Can you see?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Royals and Tiger's basically becoming the cream of
Speaker 1: the crop in that division where you maybe thought it
Speaker 1: was going to be the Guardians and Twins at the
Speaker 1: start of the year.
Speaker 5: I think yes, you can.
Speaker 4: But at the same time, I would hate to rule
Speaker 4: out the Guardians at this point. I mean, you just
Speaker 4: can't do it. You know what you're gonna get from them,
Speaker 4: and they will be in and around it. The Tigers
Speaker 4: I've seen recently. I mean, I think I've had the
Speaker 4: same experience as you. We ended the three game We
Speaker 4: did actually win one of the games, but in the
Speaker 4: other two we lost nine to one and the other
Speaker 4: one we lost thirteen to one. So that I've seen
Speaker 4: those level of performances but I think it's hard to
Speaker 4: judge when they're playing the Rockies and the Angels, but
Speaker 4: they do have a good rotation. They have the best
Speaker 4: pitcher in baseball. Their number five guy went against us,
Speaker 4: which is Rues Olsen, and I think he's not really
Speaker 4: a number five on a lot of teams. He's got
Speaker 4: stuff to be much better than that. So promising on
Speaker 4: both sides of ball. The Royals, again, when you've got
Speaker 4: someone like Bobby Witt that can just set the table
Speaker 4: and just run a team in a way that not
Speaker 4: many players in baseball can and just be such a
Speaker 4: dominant figure. And as you said, if you've got a
Speaker 4: few frontline starters as well, you don't need much. I
Speaker 4: don't think in the majors these days to go on
Speaker 4: a semi good run, and that is like a platform
Speaker 4: for them to do it. So I think both teams
Speaker 4: are going to be good this year. I think both
Speaker 4: teams are going to be battling it out. I do
Speaker 4: find it hard to analyze the Tigers without putting that
Speaker 4: Jed lens on everything. I can't see anything without seeing
Speaker 4: his perspective, which does sort of taint it a little bit.
Speaker 5: But I think they're good teams. They're good baseball teams.
Speaker 1: He does dominate my ex time and every morning it's
Speaker 1: one of the first things I see is how the
Speaker 1: Tigers got on last night because we've got, you know,
Speaker 1: some Jed tweet that went viral, which I do enjoy seeing.
Speaker 1: I don't know how where he gets his sleep either.
Speaker 1: With apologies to some of the other good teams in baseball,
Speaker 1: we're going to move on some of the bad teams now.
Speaker 1: And I thought i'd let maybe let you take it away, Nick.
Speaker 1: With the Angels, it's been a weird season for them
Speaker 1: so far. Big SI there, I think sums it up. Well,
Speaker 1: what's your current mindset when it comes to this team
Speaker 1: and what's the sort of planned for the rest of
Speaker 1: the year as far as they're concerned.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think you've caught me on a slightly
Speaker 4: better day than some only that we have just won
Speaker 4: a series against the Blue Jays, who should be on
Speaker 4: this bad team list. Quite frankly, I mean, I think
Speaker 4: the Angels are what the Angels are. And I said
Speaker 4: at the start of the season, I predicted a sixty
Speaker 4: five win season. I think you guys predicted something very
Speaker 4: similar to that, maybe even that. I just think people
Speaker 4: got carried away from the good start. Me too, and
Speaker 4: I think you need to enjoy it when it happens.
Speaker 4: But ultimately, there is not enough talent on this team
Speaker 4: to sustain any level of performance for any length of time.
Speaker 4: The franchise is flawed. The owner is one of the
Speaker 4: worst owners in baseball. They don't spend enough money on scouting,
Speaker 4: they don't spend enough money on development. There's a reason
Speaker 4: why we're having to rush players from the college into
Speaker 4: the major league team. And actually that's how a level
Speaker 4: of success. I have to shout out Zach Netto at
Speaker 4: this point, who is a genuinely, really good baseball player,
Speaker 4: probably a perennial All Star at some point when he
Speaker 4: gets when he gets properly developed. Really like him. Shanuel's
Speaker 4: kind of like meh. Doesn't hit for any power, hits
Speaker 4: a lot of balls on the ground. The rotation's pretty average.
Speaker 4: Like the ballpen is horrendous, and that's where we've been
Speaker 4: losing games a lot of time. I think it's the
Speaker 4: worst era in baseball by quite a considerable distance in
Speaker 4: the ball and actually I think Ron Washington the game's
Speaker 4: passed him by. Great coach not a good manager. Some
Speaker 4: of the decision making is awful. But yeah, the Angels
Speaker 4: are a bad baseball team. Fundamentally, there is some talent
Speaker 4: on there, and I think the frustrating thing this year
Speaker 4: was we were hoping to see the steps be made
Speaker 4: with that young talent. Logan o Hoppy also very good player,
Speaker 4: Zach Netto, good player Taylor Ward's an above average outfield.
Speaker 4: Hopefully Mike Trout was going to be back, but Trout's
Speaker 4: another one. I mean, he's injured again. Hopefully this injury
Speaker 4: isn't too bad, but he's now effectively just hitting home
Speaker 4: runs and singles and then striking out a lot.
Speaker 5: That's it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's tough, and I just don't see any way
Speaker 4: they make any steps forward. Like there's ten years without
Speaker 4: the playoffs. It could easily be another ten and nobody
Speaker 4: would be surprised because the Angels aren't doing the things
Speaker 4: you're supposed to do when you're bad. Right, We've got
Speaker 4: the number two pick in the draft this year, and
Speaker 4: I guarantee we go under slot. I guarantee we try
Speaker 4: and save money for elsewhere when you just need an
Speaker 4: infusion of real talent. But they just make bad decision
Speaker 4: after bad decision anyway.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds sounds depressingly familiar. I'm afraid to say
Speaker 1: I was going to say, we'd be remiss not to
Speaker 1: talk a bit about about Mike Trout. I think, obviously,
Speaker 1: like you say, it was a bit of an odd
Speaker 1: start to the season. It is hitting for a lot
Speaker 1: of power, but maybe not showing his usual plate discipline.
Speaker 1: And now the injury and we have seen this before,
Speaker 1: having Darius Ware and initially downplayed injury then leads to
Speaker 1: an il stint, then leads to we're not sure when
Speaker 1: he's going to be back, and look touch Wood, he
Speaker 1: will be back fairly soon. And this is just an
Speaker 1: abundance of precaution, which makes sense given how it's been lately.
Speaker 1: But it does feel like here we go again a
Speaker 1: little bit with Trout, doesn't it, Especially from a health perspective,
Speaker 1: but also from a you know, he's entering the back
Speaker 1: of his career anyway, and maybe we should expect to
Speaker 1: see performance decline too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know, you've sort of always been
Speaker 3: able to hang your hat on Oh well, but he's
Speaker 3: on the field. It's still been you know, elite level
Speaker 3: Mike Trout, and now we're starting to see the cracks
Speaker 3: there as well, and we have reached that point where
Speaker 3: your your baseline expectation is when he's just going to
Speaker 3: be out for the season, even though they're saying, oh,
Speaker 3: it's fine, but they've done this. This is, you know,
Speaker 3: third fourth time. It's not that serious. I remember writing
Speaker 3: about this for BP anual I think three or four
Speaker 3: years ago when he I think it might have been
Speaker 3: a knee injury or I can't remember which injury it was.
Speaker 3: There's been so many, but it was kind of like
Speaker 3: Joe Madam was just I was coming back, He's coming back,
Speaker 3: He's coming back. Oh, actually he's not coming back.
Speaker 5: I think that was the calf injury.
Speaker 3: That was the calf injury.
Speaker 5: He has the calf one that just went on and
Speaker 5: on and on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was like May and then he ended
Speaker 3: up being out of the season. So I hope this
Speaker 3: isn't the same thing. But at the same time, it's
Speaker 3: kind of like, well, yeah, is this just what Mike
Speaker 3: Trout is now? You know, are we ever going to
Speaker 3: get you know, one hundred and twenty games again, I'm
Speaker 3: not expecting one hundred and fifty games anymore. I'm just like,
Speaker 3: can we get three quarters of a season? Can we
Speaker 3: get fifty percent of a season? That would be a
Speaker 3: good result at this point in time, which is a
Speaker 3: sad thing to say. Obviously he's a Hall of Famer,
Speaker 3: but yeah, at this point in time, I just I
Speaker 3: don't expect anything. Anything we get it's gravy, but I
Speaker 3: think it's it's all downhill from here. Really.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's such a shame because I mean, that first
Speaker 4: period of his career, it was on course to be
Speaker 4: the greatest of all time, almost like it was just
Speaker 4: an incredible start to his career. And these injuries have
Speaker 4: just cost us and I think that's the thing they've
Speaker 4: cost not just me as an Angels fan, They've cost
Speaker 4: baseball one of the all time greats from having that
Speaker 4: second half of his career well actually, where we've seen
Speaker 4: some of the all time greats get stronger and stronger
Speaker 4: and grow into it. And it is just such a
Speaker 4: shame where Mike is and I think we just have
Speaker 4: to be realistic. He still has that level of aura
Speaker 4: when he's on the field, he still carries himself well,
Speaker 4: but I would like to question the Angels tactics with
Speaker 4: him again, right, They've moved into right field this year
Speaker 4: to lighten the load. Fine, they have daged him a
Speaker 4: bit when they wouldn't have done previously. He's played in
Speaker 4: twenty nine out of twenty nine games before he got injured. Right,
Speaker 4: What part of we're gonna try and you know, hold
Speaker 4: him back a little bit so that we can have
Speaker 4: him later in the season. What part of that is
Speaker 4: playing him in every single game, Even if you are
Speaker 4: dhing him, it's still putting a strain on his body.
Speaker 4: And this one was ridiculous, Like he got bone Bruis
Speaker 4: running down the line and putting his foot on the
Speaker 4: back and it just the.
Speaker 5: Impact gave him a bone Brew. It's like the guy
Speaker 5: is just injury prone.
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, he's carrying a lot of timber on an athletic frame,
Speaker 4: but it just doesn't seem to be working for him anymore.
Speaker 5: And it's so sad. It's sad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Mike Trout's one of my favorite players and
Speaker 1: always will be. But yeah, it's sad to see him
Speaker 1: not able to make it onto the field as much
Speaker 1: so Touchwood. In a week or so's time, he'll be
Speaker 1: he'll be back out there and it'll all be you know,
Speaker 1: us being paranoid, but you do. Yeah, you do always
Speaker 1: fear for the worst, given recent history. Speaking the worst
Speaker 1: in recent history. Let's talk a little bit about the
Speaker 1: Colorado Rockies. I usually try to skip over them just
Speaker 1: because it's boring to talk about them, and I don't
Speaker 1: think anyone wants to. But I feel like the level
Speaker 1: of utility they've reached this season means we kind of
Speaker 1: have to talk about them a little bit. They are
Speaker 1: doing a very good reenactment of the twenty twenty four
Speaker 1: White Sox, if not worse, I think they're on pace
Speaker 1: for something in the thirties win wise. They got blown
Speaker 1: out in double headed yesterday by the Tigers. Their rotation
Speaker 1: is moribund. The lineup is just a bunch of guys
Speaker 1: you either never heard of or didn't realize weren't playing
Speaker 1: in Triple A somewhere. This is not a serious baseball team.
Speaker 1: A lot of what you were saying rang very true
Speaker 1: for me, Nick, in terms of just not taking this
Speaker 1: the way that you know good functioning franchises do, all
Speaker 1: the way from ownership to the front offish, to front
Speaker 1: office to coaching. Yeah, this organization is truly broken, and
Speaker 1: this does feel now or at least this season, like
Speaker 1: the very Nader the bottom of where they could get to,
Speaker 1: and sad to see because I think it's a town
Speaker 1: that wants to support a good baseball team. It's an
Speaker 1: amazing stadium, they have some very nice uniforms. They have
Speaker 1: had superstar players play for them. They don't now because
Speaker 1: they've given them away. But you know, it's just sad
Speaker 1: to see the team get to this point and it
Speaker 1: makes you wonder, yeah, almost what the future of the
Speaker 1: sport is for this team because they've not made it
Speaker 1: to the playoffs in you know, going on ten years now,
Speaker 1: they've never won the division. Are they ever going to
Speaker 1: be competitive? I genuinely question it a little bit now, Darius.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you had any chance to watch
Speaker 1: the Rockies. I hope for your sake you haven't. Do
Speaker 1: they feel like one of the teams that could be
Speaker 1: in contention for worst of all time because that's what
Speaker 1: their record suggests.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they kind of do. At this point. They're actually
Speaker 3: on pace for twenty six wins six which, like the
Speaker 3: White Socks, are almost as terrible as they were last season,
Speaker 3: and nobody is talking about them because the Rockies are
Speaker 3: so bad They have the second worst OPS in the Magees,
Speaker 3: just ahead of the White Sogs playing in corse Field.
Speaker 3: Not ops plus, just ops six twenty three ops. They're
Speaker 3: hitting two eleven as a team, the team that plays
Speaker 3: in Corsfield. It is unbelievable how bad they are. And
Speaker 3: you know, we did not expect this. I think it
Speaker 3: was Tom that throughout the win total that was ludicrously
Speaker 3: high on the prediction pod, and you immediately shot it
Speaker 3: down and said they are losing one hundred and now
Speaker 3: it looks like we should have just said one hundred
Speaker 3: and twenty straight off the bat. Yeah, I don't see
Speaker 3: where the upside is coming from this team. Do I
Speaker 3: expect them to win twenty six games? No, it's really
Speaker 3: hard to win only twenty six games. Nobody's ever been
Speaker 3: that bad in the history of baseball. But if we
Speaker 3: are sat here in mid September going, oh, the Rocket's
Speaker 3: going to be worse than the White Sox last year,
Speaker 3: I will not be surprised one bit. There is not
Speaker 3: a lot of upside here. You're not looking at the
Speaker 3: team going oh, he's going to get better, and you
Speaker 3: know they'll get this guy back and it'll be great.
Speaker 3: Like I don't know where that's coming from.
Speaker 1: I mean, their best hitter is a man called Hunter Goodman,
Speaker 1: who I'm assuming listeners to this podcast have never heard
Speaker 1: of batting a certain mickey moniac and the cleanup spot
Speaker 1: in some games. Nick, I'm sure you can attest to
Speaker 1: what a terrible idea that is.
Speaker 4: The fact that you took a player released by the
Speaker 4: Angels at the end of spring and stuck in forth
Speaker 4: in your lineup should say everything you need to do
Speaker 4: about the Rockies. I just wonder what implication this level
Speaker 4: of fucking has for the next CBA. I mean, there's
Speaker 4: certain teams here that just don't have any sort of
Speaker 4: pathway it scenes to being good baseball teams again. And actually,
Speaker 4: how long is that sustainable? How long can you have
Speaker 4: this sort of two tier MLB? Almost And I guess
Speaker 4: there are examples. You can look at someone like the
Speaker 4: A's to terribly mismanage off the field, But the one
Speaker 4: thing they do do well is replenish their farm system
Speaker 4: and get them back into the major league teams to
Speaker 4: sell them off again. They do that fairly well. But
Speaker 4: I do wonder at some point whether this does become
Speaker 4: a conversation we hear it all the time, don't we
Speaker 4: about salary floor, salary cap. You hear like some of
Speaker 4: the discussion about it, But I don't know if this
Speaker 4: level of is sustainable to keep this level of bad
Speaker 4: teams that maintain how bad they are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it will become a point of contention
Speaker 1: for sure. And like you say, it's the Rockies do
Speaker 1: actually spend some money badly. They spend it badly, but
Speaker 1: they do spend it sometimes. It's just the player development
Speaker 1: is atrocious, you know, even the exciting young players. Chase
Speaker 1: Durlander looks as shallow of himself already, Zack Ben's been terrible.
Speaker 1: So yeah, they just can't seem to develop good players.
Speaker 1: And so it'll be interesting to see what comes of it.
Speaker 1: If they continue to be on at twenty eight win pace,
Speaker 1: this conversation might pick up some steam in terms of,
Speaker 1: you know, what needs to be done urgently to address this.
Speaker 2: But we'll see, it's a long season.
Speaker 1: They'll find wins along the way, but it's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a depressing time to be a baseball fan in Denver.
Speaker 2: Let's finish our bad teams.
Speaker 1: Then with the Orioles, who, unlike the two previous teams,
Speaker 1: we mentioned probably came into the season with a lot
Speaker 1: more hope and expectation for what they would be able
Speaker 1: to achieve this year, given how strong their roster was
Speaker 1: given performances in the last couple of years. But it's
Speaker 1: been an April and early May to forget for the Oriols,
Speaker 1: hasn't it, Darius. I think injuries have certainly paid a factor.
Speaker 1: But even some of the you know, players at the
Speaker 1: top of their lineup that they would expect to be
Speaker 1: MVP stars haven't really hit yet. And the rotation that
Speaker 1: we all criticize at the start of the season has
Speaker 1: looked every bit as bad as we might have feared.
Speaker 2: So is this cause for genuine concern?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think so. They're in one of the harder divisions
Speaker 3: in baseball. You know, you can't afford to get out
Speaker 3: to this kind of start and expect, you know, the
Speaker 3: Yankees to give you a free pass and let you
Speaker 3: back into the division. That's not going to happen if
Speaker 3: you're looking for silver linings. Yes, I think the lineup
Speaker 3: is going to hit better. You know, Gunna Henderson is
Speaker 3: going to hit better than he's hits so far. I
Speaker 3: think Adlie will hit better than he's hits so far.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, you look at that rotation
Speaker 3: and we did you know, it wasn't a surprise to
Speaker 3: anybody that this this was a weak group and the
Speaker 3: fact that Grayson Rodriguez went down has only made things worse.
Speaker 3: But now Charley Morton is absolutely one hundred percent cooked,
Speaker 3: Zach Eflyn's been hurt, which, yeah, again, you know, when
Speaker 3: you don't have that depth, then it gets really really thin,
Speaker 3: really fast. And now yeah it's Tamuki Sigano the number
Speaker 3: one starter, and this is a guy who like barely
Speaker 3: strikes up more than he walks. Yeah, sure, he's like
Speaker 3: a fine you know, number four, number five, like prop
Speaker 3: up the back of the rotation guy, and you're like,
Speaker 3: can we count on him? And Kyle Gibson. This is
Speaker 3: not the rotation of a team that should be contending
Speaker 3: for the World Series. It's not even close. You know,
Speaker 3: they need arguably three four guys in here. So yeah,
Speaker 3: Eflyn's going to come back this weekend, I think. But
Speaker 3: what Moreton has done, who knows what's gonna happen with Rodriguez?
Speaker 3: And is Michael Las going to finally say let's trade
Speaker 3: some prospects let's go and get a high end picture,
Speaker 3: because that's what they need. I think the lineup will
Speaker 3: come around, but it might might already be too late,
Speaker 3: and if it's not, I think they need to do
Speaker 3: something relatively quickly. I don't think it's any point wait
Speaker 3: until the end of July to see if this useless
Speaker 3: group is going to turn it around, because where's the upside.
Speaker 3: You know, the Ciganov has done surprisingly well so far,
Speaker 3: but he's got a cape and ie less than five. Like,
Speaker 3: this is old school baseball stuff. It's not going to
Speaker 3: hold up the long term. So yeah, I think the
Speaker 3: Oriols are in trouble. They're in a lot of trouble.
Speaker 3: And this is when they should really be, you know,
Speaker 3: in there. They should be in the mix. They should
Speaker 3: be in the playoffs every season. And these guys are
Speaker 3: going to get expensive soon as well. You know, Henderson Reischmann,
Speaker 3: they're going to go into urb and they're going to
Speaker 3: pay him some money. So it's time to strike.
Speaker 4: I think you hit the nail on the head there
Speaker 4: with I mean, Ben and I expected our team to
Speaker 4: be bad.
Speaker 5: The Areols aren't supposed to be bad.
Speaker 4: They're supposed to be in a window where they're competing
Speaker 4: for the highest honors and they've yet they've managed to
Speaker 4: mismanage everything so badly that they've got this rotation in place.
Speaker 4: I think they are seeing some signs of life on
Speaker 4: the hitting. I think Jackson Holiday in particular has really
Speaker 4: picked up recently and looks like he's coming to terms
Speaker 4: in major legue pitching. But the Oriols have to make
Speaker 4: a move. You cannot wait and waste this young core.
Speaker 4: You cannot waste this level of talent that they have.
Speaker 4: And you've got to be so frustrating for a team
Speaker 4: that's the team that was mismanaged for a while. Anyway
Speaker 4: to suddenly get new ownership in who promised to do
Speaker 4: things differently and promise to spend, and then to have
Speaker 4: a general manager that's refusing to spend any of that
Speaker 4: money just makes no sense and got to be so frustrating.
Speaker 4: I think I'd be even more frustrated if I thought
Speaker 4: we were supposed to be good and we weren't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the good thing is, if you can
Speaker 1: call it that, is that they've been off to such
Speaker 1: a bad start that it just has to be a
Speaker 1: wake up call for the front office in that you know,
Speaker 1: if they were hovering around five hundred with a poor rotation,
Speaker 1: you can maybe close your eyes and say what, we'll
Speaker 1: figure it out once Grason's back. But I think this
Speaker 1: will hopefully force them into action scene it rather than
Speaker 1: later and embulsing that rotation with people that aren't named
Speaker 1: Carl Gibson. So yeah, well we'll see where this nets
Speaker 1: out for the Oriels. I'm not panicking yet, but like
Speaker 1: Darius said, this is a very good division and you
Speaker 1: can very quickly fall out of contention and which they're doing.
Speaker 2: Let's get onto the sort.
Speaker 1: Of meeting bones of the podcast and conscious for forty
Speaker 1: minutes in and haven't got on to our list yet,
Speaker 1: which may take some time to go through. So as
Speaker 1: mentioned at the top of the show, we thought it
Speaker 1: would be a fun exercise, you know, fun and inverted
Speaker 1: commas to try and go through who we think the
Speaker 1: top ten players in baseball? And all I said to
Speaker 1: Darius and Nick was I wanted to come up with
Speaker 1: a list of the ten best players in Major League Baseball.
Speaker 2: No other context to it.
Speaker 1: You know, you can define that word however you like to,
Speaker 1: and I think it might be fun to start there
Speaker 1: and hear a bit about how you guys attack this
Speaker 1: and whether you found it easy or not. Personally, I
Speaker 1: found it more difficult than I thought. I think it
Speaker 1: felt like they were a clear top three, and then
Speaker 1: it felt like after that you could kind of go
Speaker 1: in a few different directions. So I'm interested, Nick, you're
Speaker 1: nodding along a little bit there. How did you find
Speaker 1: it trying to put this list together? What was your
Speaker 1: sort of methodology when you were coming up with the
Speaker 1: top ten?
Speaker 4: Exactly the same as you. I mean, there was no
Speaker 4: real methodology. This was just pure vibes from my film perspective.
Speaker 4: But I think there was a clear I think there
Speaker 4: was a clear five in my list. I knew I
Speaker 4: wanted to be in my list, right? And are we
Speaker 4: going into names because I think my top two are
Speaker 4: absolutely the top two, which is Aaron Judge and Shoe Aatani.
Speaker 4: And I think the order on that one depends on
Speaker 4: if Ittani's pitching or not. If Ittani's pitching, he's number one.
Speaker 4: If he's not, I think Judge takes it. I think
Speaker 4: number three for me is Bobby witt Jr. I think
Speaker 4: there was no questions asked in my perspective on those three.
Speaker 4: I then had two pictures in there, and actually one
Speaker 4: of them I think is probably premature, but I think
Speaker 4: it's Skul from the Tigers. But also Paul Skeins I've
Speaker 4: gotten in there. So that was my top five. They
Speaker 4: were the five guys I thought guaranteed in my list.
Speaker 4: The rest of it, honestly, you're you're plucking out names.
Speaker 4: You're thinking, yeah, this guy's got to be in there,
Speaker 4: and then you pluck out another name, you go, well,
Speaker 4: is he better than him?
Speaker 5: Is he not?
Speaker 4: And it was tough, but I think the rest of
Speaker 4: my five I like my list. So I've got and
Speaker 4: actually not really in much of an order, but I've
Speaker 4: got Corbin Carroll in there, Tatist Junior, I've got Kyle Tough,
Speaker 4: I have got Juan Soto, and I've got Jacob deGrom,
Speaker 4: which I think.
Speaker 5: I've stuck him in there at the end.
Speaker 4: I think people are about the Grom because of the injuries,
Speaker 4: the elite performance before and then actually he's come back.
Speaker 5: This year and he's looking pretty good again.
Speaker 1: I love that show. I'm a big de Grom fan.
Speaker 1: He wasn't on my list, and actually we differ a
Speaker 1: bit throughout the list, which is interesting, Darius, How did
Speaker 1: you find the exercise? Yeah, let's maybe start at the top.
Speaker 1: Did you have the same top three? What order did
Speaker 1: you have them in? And then how did you go
Speaker 1: about constructing the rest of the list.
Speaker 3: I did have the same top three. I went back
Speaker 3: and forth on Judge and O'tani. I did end up
Speaker 3: with Judge a number one, because right now he's basically
Speaker 3: the best right handed here in baseball history, and I
Speaker 3: think it's difficult to not put that number one. I'm
Speaker 3: sure o'tani will come back and be good on the mound,
Speaker 3: but he isn't doing it right now, and we obviously
Speaker 3: don't know when that's going to happen. I think, when
Speaker 3: you know, Ifany's going to have a thousand plus OPS
Speaker 3: and he's going to be, you know, a top twenty
Speaker 3: pitcher in baseball, you can't not have him number one.
Speaker 3: Doesn't really matter. Maybe if Aaron Judges like has a
Speaker 3: fourteen hundred OPS and then.
Speaker 4: He's it's the same MVP argument, right, Yeah, when Ai
Speaker 4: was winning MVPs, when he was doing both at elite levels,
Speaker 4: how can you vote against that?
Speaker 3: How can you beat that? Like, Yeah, he's like one
Speaker 3: of the top three hitters in baseball, and by the way,
Speaker 3: also with your ass like you can't you can't beat that,
Speaker 3: and I appreciate you know. I'm not going to sit
Speaker 3: here and argue that Judge isn't a better hitter, because
Speaker 3: he is, but is still one of the very best hitters.
Speaker 3: It's not like is a mid hitter and a good
Speaker 3: picture likes he's elite.
Speaker 1: So I had a tiny one as well. Actually I
Speaker 1: put him above Judge partly because of the pitching piece,
Speaker 1: but also like any still fifty bases last year, I
Speaker 1: think he's still fifty nine in the end, on the
Speaker 1: basis he's such a weapon too, and not the Judges
Speaker 1: a slouch, but he's not quite at that level. And
Speaker 1: maybe that offsets with the fact that Judge actually plays
Speaker 1: defense whereas Attorney DH's. But I felt like there was
Speaker 1: enough that o'torney gives you just as a hitter. And
Speaker 1: on the basis that even if you think the pitching
Speaker 1: is a you know, you know right now he's not
Speaker 1: pitching as you say, Darius, so that it doesn't really you know,
Speaker 1: tilted for you, I still think you can make an
Speaker 1: argument that he is level with Judge, if not slightly ahead.
Speaker 2: But sorry, I'll that you can carry on.
Speaker 3: If Judge was a little bit worse, then I would
Speaker 3: have a return. But the Judge is basically Barry Bonds.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: That is what's happened. That is the level is reached.
Speaker 4: But Tiny is exceptionally handsome, though he has got that
Speaker 4: going for him as well.
Speaker 5: It's true, yeah, looking for a tide breaker.
Speaker 1: Yeah, whereas Judge, I mean he yeah, God wouldn't want
Speaker 1: to wake up next to him.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I did have the same top three I had.
Speaker 3: I had wit third. That was not, likewise particularly difficult
Speaker 3: for me. I think I tended to lean on a
Speaker 3: sort of track record over the hot new thing. There
Speaker 3: were a few younger guys that I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: you should have put this guy in here, and I
Speaker 3: was like, I don't know if I've seen enough yet.
Speaker 3: So I ended up with Soto at fourth, just because
Speaker 3: I have the utmost confidence in his ability to sort
Speaker 3: of be the elite on base guy in baseball. You know,
Speaker 3: we talked about him having a slow start year. He's
Speaker 3: got one hundred and forty four WRC plus, Like, this
Speaker 3: is what constitutes a slow start for this guy. He's
Speaker 3: like twenty six years old. And you're like, oh, it's
Speaker 3: a bit slow. He's only like the tenth best hitter
Speaker 3: in baseball. That's that's elite to me. So I've got
Speaker 3: him there. I've actually got Bets in at five. I'm
Speaker 3: a little bit concerned about his weight and his you know,
Speaker 3: his illness. He doesn't quite look the same, but again,
Speaker 3: elite track record. I think he will, you know, as
Speaker 3: he gets further removed from that come around. I believe
Speaker 3: in that talent. And then following up with that, I've
Speaker 3: got Lindor and Ramirez. Marirez does not get enough respects
Speaker 3: in baseball, I don't think, you know, just consistently high end,
Speaker 3: every year quality player. I have to Teas in there
Speaker 3: as well. And then I went, I hesitated on this
Speaker 3: because he is first baseman, but I've put Freddy Freeman
Speaker 3: in there because Freddy Freeman is money in the bank
Speaker 3: and his elite Again this year, you know, I was
Speaker 3: worried about the ankle injury. I thought, is it going
Speaker 3: to be bad? You know, are we going to see
Speaker 3: the start of any Freeman declient? You know, he's actually
Speaker 3: better than ever right now. If you look at the
Speaker 3: guys who have the most war over the past. However,
Speaker 3: many seasons Freddie Freeman is going to be in the
Speaker 3: top ten because he's out there. He's in the field
Speaker 3: every day, he's putting up the numbers. He's just relentlessly consistent.
Speaker 3: He's the playoff legend now as well, which obviously burnishes
Speaker 3: his I mean, he's a Hall of Famer. I don't
Speaker 3: think anybody is doubting that at this point in time.
Speaker 3: And then I was kind of like, well, I don't
Speaker 3: have a picture. Should I have a picture? I went
Speaker 3: back and forth and having a picture. It's quite interesting
Speaker 3: if you look I kind of like, I was like,
Speaker 3: let's go back, let's see who, like the best pictures
Speaker 3: were by war. If you actually look at at Fangraffs
Speaker 3: War for pictures over the last you know, since twenty
Speaker 3: twenty three, like it gets really thin, you'll never guess
Speaker 3: who is in fourth place on the top war for
Speaker 3: pictures the last three years. That one Zach Wheeler, no surprise.
Speaker 3: Number two Logan Web because he always pictures. Number three
Speaker 3: is Scooball. Who do you think is number four since
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three? Since start twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: Can be someone who always pictures.
Speaker 3: He's made sixty eight starts, so yeah, he's been on
Speaker 3: the mound most of the time. Not necessarily a thing
Speaker 3: he would have thought about this guy, I think earlier
Speaker 3: in his career necessarily, But.
Speaker 5: That's out misery.
Speaker 3: It's sunny Gray, great, Oh my god, it's going to
Speaker 3: give me the start of twenty three, which is kind
Speaker 3: of to me saying don't put a picture. I think.
Speaker 3: I yeah, I probably would go for schooball right now
Speaker 3: if I was going to do it, But I think
Speaker 3: the way that Kyle Tucker has been playing, you know,
Speaker 3: he looks like he's he's taken it to another level
Speaker 3: with the Cubs. He's kind of always been an underrated
Speaker 3: guard as well. So in the end I went for
Speaker 3: for Tucker at ten because he kind of looks like
Speaker 3: he's going to be an MVP Kendident this season and
Speaker 3: he's still pretty young guy. So I went all hitters
Speaker 3: in the end. That's just a comment on my lack
Speaker 3: of faith in pictures of what it is to stay healthy.
Speaker 3: I had like another fifteen guys. I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: I should I put this guy in, and ended up
Speaker 3: not doing it, but that was my list.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I went into the exercise in my mind saying
Speaker 1: I'm going to go no pictures for the reason you
Speaker 1: said where I'm like, you know what, I just don't
Speaker 1: know if I could tell you who the best picture
Speaker 1: in baseball is anyway, And I think it's so tough
Speaker 1: to know year to year, who's going to be healthy,
Speaker 1: who's going to be good, all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: So I went into it thinking I'm going to go
Speaker 1: ten position players, and then I got to like eight,
Speaker 1: and I was like, do I really love this guy
Speaker 1: more than I love whoever you think is the number
Speaker 1: one picture in baseball? And I kind of decided that
Speaker 1: that I didn't. So I do have one picture in
Speaker 1: my list. I have the same top four as you actually, Darius,
Speaker 1: like well in a side offer order over Tarney one,
Speaker 1: Judge two, w Junior three, Soto four. I then have
Speaker 1: Lindor five, Like I just think he's so good and
Speaker 1: has been so good for so long, like it's just
Speaker 1: plays a premium position, plays it so well.
Speaker 2: Is such a good hitter.
Speaker 1: I think has got that like whether you want to
Speaker 1: call it clutch, Gene turns up when the lights of
Speaker 1: brightest thing to him.
Speaker 2: So I got him at five.
Speaker 1: I've got Hozier and mirrors at six for the same
Speaker 1: reason as you mentioned, just relentless consistency. Nearly went forty
Speaker 1: forty last year, and I feel like no one cared
Speaker 1: because of Otani.
Speaker 2: I had Bets at seven.
Speaker 1: Again, the consistency thing gives you value in all three areas.
Speaker 1: I then went Trey Turner, which I just think he's underrated,
Speaker 1: like he's been good for a long time. Again, plays
Speaker 1: a premium position and plays it well, speed power, does everything.
Speaker 1: Even when you think he's had a bad year, he's
Speaker 1: still like a three to four win player. So I
Speaker 1: put him in there. Zach Wheeler was my one picture.
Speaker 1: I put him at nine. I probably would lean like
Speaker 1: Scuba or Schemes if you were saying, I don't know,
Speaker 1: like you're building a franchise today, who do you pick
Speaker 1: just because of Wheeler's age, But he's just been so
Speaker 1: consistent in terms of innings and production. Another guy who
Speaker 1: is a playoff monster. I put him in there, and
Speaker 1: then at ten Nice Snut carving Carol in there. Undernaed
Speaker 1: about you know which of the big upside younger players
Speaker 1: to put in there, and I think Carrol if we
Speaker 1: assume his first half from last year is like the
Speaker 1: worst player he can be. I think that, like he's
Speaker 1: just a good player, right because he ended up even
Speaker 1: with a good stat line last year.
Speaker 2: This year he's off to a phenomenal start. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think he's a really strong player that you could
Speaker 1: build as team around. So so I'll have him in there.
Speaker 1: But maybe let's go back and debate a few of
Speaker 1: the guys who are in the middle. It sounds like
Speaker 1: we're pretty aligned on the top three. Nick, did you
Speaker 1: have so too on your list?
Speaker 5: Yeah? So is in there. I actually have him fifth
Speaker 5: on my list.
Speaker 4: I didn't read it out on the order I've got
Speaker 4: the okay, But to be honest, he probably is that
Speaker 4: number four guy as well. I've actually got Corbyn Carroll
Speaker 4: up there in the four spot just because I wanted
Speaker 4: to get him into the lineup. I don't think he's
Speaker 4: the fourth best player in baseball right now, but I
Speaker 4: kind of did it. I think I have done it
Speaker 4: very differently to Darius and very differently to you in
Speaker 4: some ways, Ben Or though I think you've judged it
Speaker 4: in the same sort of way, which is I'm thinking
Speaker 4: brand new team. These are the guys I want to
Speaker 4: get in there. I've considered age, I've considered future potential performance.
Speaker 4: That doesn't necessarily mean they are the ten best right now.
Speaker 4: Darius list might be more accurate, but I think if
Speaker 4: these are the guys I'd want. But I do skew
Speaker 4: that argument slightly because I then have Jacob de Gram
Speaker 4: at the end of it, just because I think that's
Speaker 4: my recognition pick that you've had, You've had a good career,
Speaker 4: you've shown elite stuff. That's your recognition, you know. But
Speaker 4: I think I'm happy with my list. I think we've
Speaker 4: agreed on lots of it. I think Kyle Tucker is
Speaker 4: a lock personally.
Speaker 5: I think Darius did. I think he should be a
Speaker 5: lock after what he's done. What are you doing?
Speaker 4: Astro's changing teams and then getting off to this sort
Speaker 4: of start. I think tattis junior. You didn't have him
Speaker 4: in there, did you, Ben?
Speaker 2: I didn't know. I like Tatis.
Speaker 1: It's just just the concern about that the injuries for
Speaker 1: him now he's playing in the outfield, as that reduces
Speaker 1: value a little bit as well, Like he's such a
Speaker 1: fun player at it. I'm not going to say you
Speaker 1: guys are wrong having him in your list, but that
Speaker 1: was the only reason that I ended up going with
Speaker 1: Like Trey Turner, he's a bit more boring, but I
Speaker 1: think he's just a bit more reliable than than Tatti's.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I thought Trey Turner was very whiffy.
Speaker 4: He didn't even come didn't even come into consideration for me.
Speaker 4: But that's why this is fun. That's why I mean.
Speaker 4: I think Turner, when he was at the Dodgers, you'd
Speaker 4: have had a good case. I think since he went
Speaker 4: to Philly and he hasn't quite lived up to expectations
Speaker 4: of that contract or that crowd, I think I'm listening
Speaker 4: to that Philly crowd too much.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think, Look, I might be wrong
Speaker 1: on that one, but I just think I looked at
Speaker 1: his stats and I was like, this is a good player.
Speaker 1: You know, in my head he's a good player. The stats,
Speaker 1: he's a good player. I like him, but I'll admit
Speaker 1: I might be a little bit too high on him.
Speaker 2: I'm interested, Darius.
Speaker 1: If we were to say right injuries are turned off,
Speaker 1: all players are now fully healthy and will be fully
Speaker 1: healthy for the foreseeable future. Is there anyone who wasn't
Speaker 1: on your list that would definitely go straight onto it.
Speaker 1: For me, I think Ronald of Kunya would be up there,
Speaker 1: even though we obviously haven't seen it from him in
Speaker 1: a long time. You can't argue that when he was
Speaker 1: fully healthy, he was one of the best players in baseball?
Speaker 1: Is it anyone else who you know, if we were
Speaker 1: to say, forget about the injury concerns, would suddenly vault
Speaker 1: into contention for you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the pictures for sure. Yeah, Wheeler was
Speaker 3: close to being on for me. School was closed, Skins was,
Speaker 3: you know, they were all in consideration for the back
Speaker 3: end of mine. I think Carol as well. That was
Speaker 3: a thing that I thought about because we have seen
Speaker 3: those ups and downs with him, and I think part
Speaker 3: of it was related to the shoulder, and I still
Speaker 3: get a little bit twitchy about that. You know, he's
Speaker 3: had a fantastic start to this season, and I think
Speaker 3: if he had a slightly longer track record then I
Speaker 3: would definitely have put him on. But you know, we
Speaker 3: just have seen that up and down from him a
Speaker 3: little bit where I'm kind of like, let's make him,
Speaker 3: let's get through a whole season healthy at elite level
Speaker 3: and then then we'll talk. So he's on there, I
Speaker 3: don't know if there was anybody else who I ruled
Speaker 3: out from in you, I don't think there's any other
Speaker 3: picture worthy of being up there Byron Buxton.
Speaker 2: I could guarantee his.
Speaker 3: Health if you could guarantee me one hundred guarantee games
Speaker 3: of Byron Buxton. If you asked me like three years ago,
Speaker 3: I would say, I think we've seen you know, I
Speaker 3: think maybe last year was the first year you sort
Speaker 3: of saw Buxton on the field and not elite. The
Speaker 3: rest of his career, it was kind of like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: he's playing, he's going to be great, and then he's
Speaker 3: just not going to be playing. And there were some
Speaker 3: you know, ups and downs with that. But yeah, I
Speaker 3: don't I don't know. I think if you looked at
Speaker 3: the Warper one hundred and sixty two, maybe Buxton would
Speaker 3: be top ten for the last five years or whatever.
Speaker 3: I haven't done that run those numbers. I wouldn't be
Speaker 3: surprised if that was true. I'm just going to try
Speaker 3: and find out what his warp one hundred and sixty
Speaker 3: two games played is now. Actually, because while you do that,
Speaker 3: I got another question for you.
Speaker 4: Do you think we've all been a bit harsh not
Speaker 4: having Juan Soto in the lock category. We all basically
Speaker 4: had a lock three, and I know we've all picked him,
Speaker 4: but really when you consider all this, it probably should
Speaker 4: have been a lock four. It should have been those
Speaker 4: four just reeled off straight away.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: And actually I think both of you did have him
Speaker 4: in force, So maybe this is on me. We didn't
Speaker 4: sort of talk about him in those terms, and he
Speaker 4: probably is at this stage.
Speaker 1: I think I get the argument if you want to
Speaker 1: say Soto isn't at that level of you know, the
Speaker 1: certainly the judge Natani and I think we'll be weak.
Speaker 2: We will put up there right as well.
Speaker 1: Just in that Soto doesn't really give you value that
Speaker 1: isn't with his bat or with his eye, you know,
Speaker 1: like he's not a great baser and he's not a
Speaker 1: great defender. And I still the reason reason I put
Speaker 1: him forth is because I think as good as he's been,
Speaker 1: and he's been unbelievable in his career and he's still
Speaker 1: on his twenty six years old, I feel like there's
Speaker 1: just another level to him, Like I feel like he's
Speaker 1: got that upside of like a three thirty four eighty
Speaker 1: six eighty season in him where like it all just
Speaker 1: clicks and but he hasn't really done that yet, right,
Speaker 1: Like his seasons have all been great at four hundred AVP,
Speaker 1: hits thirty home runs, but he hasn't shown like the
Speaker 1: Aaron Judge offensive performances that you know where you'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: that guy is just the best offensive player in the
Speaker 1: league and there's no doubt about it. So I get
Speaker 1: why people might say, like, I want to see so
Speaker 1: to be the no doubt best hitter before I put
Speaker 1: him in that echelon. But for me, if what we've
Speaker 1: seen so far is like not quite his one hundred percent,
Speaker 1: then that just says more about how good he is
Speaker 1: than anything that we should do to knock him down.
Speaker 4: I think my argument, and I agree with you. I
Speaker 4: think my argument there is when you consider him against
Speaker 4: everybody else we've got on our list, he's the clear
Speaker 4: number one. Maybe we should be having like a tier
Speaker 4: of that top three and then just a fourth of
Speaker 4: Soto on his own, because I don't think anybody else
Speaker 4: around him quite matches him. But I totally get the
Speaker 4: arguments that he hasn't hit the heights the Judge and
Speaker 4: attireely have and certainly Witch just looks like he's a
Speaker 4: superstar and was a superstar last year and is going
Speaker 4: to continue to be So I think that's I think
Speaker 4: it's fair to have him there, but I do think
Speaker 4: he probably deserves recognition over the rest of the list.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't have to think about him in fourth,
Speaker 3: he was he was immediately four. For me, I didn't
Speaker 3: debate having anybody else over, And.
Speaker 1: I mean just did I mean on that topic, I
Speaker 1: guess because for me, if we were to just judge
Speaker 1: who is the best pure hitter, you know, as a
Speaker 1: separate question, I think about Soto in the one spot, right,
Speaker 1: just in terms of how elite his eye is, how
Speaker 1: good is his bad ball skills are, the power he has.
Speaker 1: But there are guys who didn't make my list who
Speaker 1: I think if it was a list of like top
Speaker 1: ten hitters, they would have been in there, right And
Speaker 1: for me, Freddie Freeman didn't make the list, he'd be
Speaker 1: in there if all we had to care about was
Speaker 1: how good they are at hitting. I also think, like
Speaker 1: maybe the injuries couldns this again, but like you're done, Alvarez.
Speaker 1: If we talked about this list a year or two ago,
Speaker 1: we had probably been talking about him in that kind
Speaker 1: of Soto era of like he is such a good
Speaker 1: pure hitter that he has to be in contention. So
Speaker 1: I think if you just take how good they are
Speaker 1: at the plate and ignore defense, ignore base running, ignore injuries,
Speaker 1: maybe that's another guy who becomes a contender. But I.
Speaker 3: Think you mentioned yeah, yeah, you're done, is another guy
Speaker 3: who is fearsome usually at the plates, and you've just
Speaker 3: never been able to have confidence in him staying on
Speaker 3: the field, and if you do put him in the outfield,
Speaker 3: then you get twitchy about him hurting himself. So that's
Speaker 3: that's the factor for me. But yeah, I think I
Speaker 3: think that that he's primarily a DH does does hurt him,
Speaker 3: and he's not at the level he's not judged, he's
Speaker 3: not so too, and so I'm not going to put
Speaker 3: him in the top ten.
Speaker 2: Did you find the bucks in number.
Speaker 3: Per one sixty two is a five point three war
Speaker 3: so he'd be I think he'd be on the boardline
Speaker 3: of that top ten. You know, he's probably pretty similar
Speaker 3: to some of those guys on the back end. I mean,
Speaker 3: if we compared him, probably not necessarily a fair comparison,
Speaker 3: because Tucker has maybe ascended to another level, but I
Speaker 3: expect that Tucker's per one sixty two is pretty similar.
Speaker 3: Five point nine, Yeah so isn't isn't that range I think?
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think he's lost a step. Obviously he's
Speaker 3: not the super elite athlete that he was. He's still
Speaker 3: incredibly good athlete, but I think he doesn't lead the
Speaker 3: league and everything. If you look at Carol for example,
Speaker 3: four point nine more per one anti two. Yeah so
Speaker 3: again speaking to the fact that he has had that
Speaker 3: that ups and downs in his career. Obviously a very
Speaker 3: short career so far. But yeah, so I don't think
Speaker 3: Buxton would make it. But I think if he told
Speaker 3: me it was going to be super healthy, I'd have
Speaker 3: him in the top twenty.
Speaker 1: So if we take your point nick around tiers and
Speaker 1: take it a one step flatter, we have a top
Speaker 1: three that's clear. We have Soto in his own tier.
Speaker 1: What does that next tier look like?
Speaker 2: Do we think?
Speaker 1: Is it like the super consistent guys that we all
Speaker 1: kind of had on our lists, like the Tuckers, who
Speaker 1: will admit was an omission on my part, like the Lindores,
Speaker 1: Joseier Ramirez, Mookie Betts. Is that probably that next tier
Speaker 1: of like they're elite at the plate. They've done it
Speaker 1: for a while, there's no reason to think they're going
Speaker 1: to stop.
Speaker 5: I think that's fair. I think there's probably two ways
Speaker 5: to look at it.
Speaker 4: I think that way, I don't have Jose Ramirez on
Speaker 4: my list, but I quite easily could have done and
Speaker 4: potentially should have done. I mean, it's being consistent for
Speaker 4: so long, just so good that he probably deserves me
Speaker 4: in that tier. I think the next way to look
Speaker 4: at it is maybe that's where you slop those Ace
Speaker 4: pictures in there, if you had Pictures on your list,
Speaker 4: because I think they can give you a certain something
Speaker 4: in terms of winning games, particularly when you're in the playoffs,
Speaker 4: particularly if you're in the World Series.
Speaker 5: Just gives you that edge.
Speaker 4: And we haven't necessarily seen it with any of the
Speaker 4: guys on the list yet, but you could do. You
Speaker 4: could see it, and we've seen it with Aces in
Speaker 4: the past. So I think you could go either way.
Speaker 4: You could go with your consistent all stars every single
Speaker 4: season you know what you're getting in production, or you
Speaker 4: could go to that just elite level talent that can
Speaker 4: give you that little bit more. I think probably when
Speaker 4: you're doing this, you go with your safer approach, which
Speaker 4: has just been there, done, it got the production seen.
Speaker 2: It all safe for boring though, isn't it?
Speaker 5: It is safe for boring. But they deserve the recognition
Speaker 5: for it.
Speaker 2: If we're going to go for a.
Speaker 1: Tier of pictures, then who do we feelm makes that?
Speaker 1: For me, it was Scooball Wheeler schemes with the three
Speaker 1: I can sit for my list? Are they the only
Speaker 1: three that you know? Even if he turn injuries off,
Speaker 1: does Gerret Cole spent a Strider make it in there?
Speaker 2: Do we think? Or is it those three in a
Speaker 2: tier of their own?
Speaker 4: I mean, I think Garrett Cole would have done if
Speaker 4: he wasn't injured. But I don't think you can turn
Speaker 4: injuries off. I think it's it's hard to said.
Speaker 3: What does that mean? Like do I get peak Spencer
Speaker 3: Strider back? Because yes, if so, But like Pete, Garrett
Speaker 3: Cole has gone. I think even if he wasn't hurt,
Speaker 3: I don't think he's the same that he was you
Speaker 3: know a couple of years ago. And yeah, Strida, you
Speaker 3: know we saw briefly and he's gone back on the il.
Speaker 3: So it's sale textualize that.
Speaker 4: Cole Reagan, I think you're looking at like tears down here. Okay,
Speaker 4: I think we're looking at the elite of the elite here,
Speaker 4: I think and I think schemes can be that Scoogle
Speaker 4: has been that last year and continues to be. I
Speaker 4: think Wheeler has been in the past. But I fear
Speaker 4: with Wheeler that again probably not quite in that top
Speaker 4: ten tier now. Main getting older, getting older.
Speaker 3: It depends how much you value you know, just banking
Speaker 3: on it as well. Like for that, I think Wheeler
Speaker 3: is the guy. If you're like, who do you expect
Speaker 3: to take the ball the most? You know, who is
Speaker 3: just going to be there? Who is the most reliable
Speaker 3: sort of ACE level starting pitcher who has done it
Speaker 3: for years and years and years right now? It is Wheeler.
Speaker 3: Doesn't necessarily mean he's going to stay healthy, but I
Speaker 3: think he is.
Speaker 2: He is that guy.
Speaker 3: I like, I'm going to say something before somebody gets
Speaker 3: mad at us. I don't think anybody has said the
Speaker 3: words Gunner Henderson yet.
Speaker 2: Was a month so he's gone.
Speaker 3: He was on my he was on my short list
Speaker 3: for like the back end of the top ten. You know,
Speaker 3: he had a nine more b ref season last year
Speaker 3: and finished fourth, and like, did either of you guys
Speaker 3: think about putting him on?
Speaker 4: Didn't cross my mind. And I think that's where That's
Speaker 4: where I think production and a history of production counts
Speaker 4: for me, and I guess it. I don't see it
Speaker 4: so much on the pitching stide as I do on
Speaker 4: the hitting. I think the hitting I needed to see
Speaker 4: a level of production to have got there. Even considering
Speaker 4: that Corbyn Carroll has had one exceptional year, one not
Speaker 4: so exceptional year, and then has looked great this year,
Speaker 4: I think I've just seen enough of him, whereas Henderson,
Speaker 4: I don't know, I just did not consider him.
Speaker 1: I considered him like I had him in that Corbyn
Speaker 1: Carroll Caspory of like young guys with big upside who's
Speaker 1: like shown that they can be superstars. But I feel
Speaker 1: like Carrol's floor is higher and the god, yeah, I
Speaker 1: just probably need to see it a little bit more
Speaker 1: from him, you know. I think it's a fair point that, like,
Speaker 1: if he was off to a great start to this season,
Speaker 1: are we not saying he's like kind of Bobby Whittlight,
Speaker 1: you know, because he had a very great, a very
Speaker 1: good season last year. He's got prospect pedigree. He's been
Speaker 1: you know that this staff, the Orioles for the last
Speaker 1: eighteen months. But yeah, I think just hasn't quite got
Speaker 1: the Yeah, the degree of consistency. Say, someone like Hulio
Speaker 1: Rodriguez right like marin his hand's going to be like,
Speaker 1: surely he gets a sniff for me. The upside is
Speaker 1: really high, but the downside is also really low. And
Speaker 1: whereas Carol struggled in the first half last year and
Speaker 1: then turned his whole line around by the end of
Speaker 1: the year, Julio like never really got fully going last year,
Speaker 1: did he, And again like this year he's off to
Speaker 1: a bit of a slow start. He just feels like
Speaker 1: he's going to be one of those hitters who ends
Speaker 1: up with great numbers and will put up some war
Speaker 1: but he's a bit too streaky to be a top
Speaker 1: ten player.
Speaker 4: Julio gets worse every single season, doesn't he. I mean,
Speaker 4: he's Julia did not come anywhere near my mind for this.
Speaker 4: I mean, just wasted potential as far as I'm concerned,
Speaker 4: very Mariners of him.
Speaker 3: I think he's just been very up and down, hasn't he.
Speaker 3: And he's like had these really extended stretches of just
Speaker 3: quite disappointing production, and then he sometimes he just goes
Speaker 3: red hot for two or three weeks. I think it's
Speaker 3: entirely possible that he has a ten more seasons at
Speaker 3: some point in his career, but we've not seen him
Speaker 3: maintain that level of consistency. I will say that Henderson
Speaker 3: has more war than Carol, both be ref and Fangrass
Speaker 3: war than the same age, So you.
Speaker 5: Know, not numbers. I made that clear from the very.
Speaker 3: Oriol's vibes are bad right now, which I think is
Speaker 3: an influencing factor.
Speaker 1: But if you consider Ellie on the exciting young shortstop front, I.
Speaker 3: Wrote him down and then I was I just like,
Speaker 3: was actually going back and looking at his stats, and
Speaker 3: I was like, he hasn't actually proven that he can
Speaker 3: hold up? Can he? Like he's spectacular. Don't get me wrong,
Speaker 3: if you were like, who would you list as the
Speaker 3: ten most exciting players to play in baseball?
Speaker 2: That's next week.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it'd definitely be top three if he wasn't number one.
Speaker 3: But yeah, when I'm list reviewing his stats and comparing
Speaker 3: him to all these other elite guys and like, no,
Speaker 3: you got to you got to show it. You know,
Speaker 3: he hasn't actually proven that you can do this consistency.
Speaker 3: The strikeout rate is still pretty high. You can see
Speaker 3: him being pretty streaky. Yeah, the level is not quite
Speaker 3: there for me yet. Absolutely, he could be the best
Speaker 3: player in basketball with all the physical talents he's got,
Speaker 3: but he hasn't proven it.
Speaker 2: I like it. Well, maybe we'll do I'm going to
Speaker 2: pull my phone acts.
Speaker 1: We did put out a tweet and a blue Sky
Speaker 1: post earlier asking for the fans send in their list,
Speaker 1: So I'll just have a quick look and see if
Speaker 1: there's any people we should shout out from there list.
Speaker 1: Mark Blakemore sent his in. He's along the same lines
Speaker 1: as us. Yeah, a lot of the same names. He
Speaker 1: had Scuba at four and Schemes at ten with his
Speaker 1: two pitchers, and then the rest were very similar to
Speaker 1: what we had. Are the wee Witch Junior down at seven?
Speaker 1: So so too at three? Don't know Ballmark, I'm afraid
Speaker 1: Gareth sent his in. He had Petrow Armstrong at ten.
Speaker 1: That's too soon, right, I think so like he might be.
Speaker 3: The best center fielder in baseball, but I think it's
Speaker 3: too soon.
Speaker 5: Too soon.
Speaker 1: He does look very good, I'll say that, but it's yeah,
Speaker 1: what like three months into his major league career.
Speaker 3: And also, you know, Kevin Kimia was the best center
Speaker 3: fielder in baseball, but he wasn't the best, Like, he
Speaker 3: wasn't a top ten player, was he? Like, you wouldn't
Speaker 3: have put him on this list. Maybe we should have done.
Speaker 3: You wouldn't have done.
Speaker 1: Jenko boy had two outside shouts. One Austin Riley, which
Speaker 1: we didn't discuss. I think there's maybe an argument to
Speaker 1: be had for him there we didn't for a reason.
Speaker 1: The other word, Yamamoto, there is no argument for him,
Speaker 1: I'm afraid, so I'm going to ignore that one.
Speaker 4: I think that's harsh. Really is a better shout than
Speaker 4: Austin Ley. I don't think he's in there, but on
Speaker 4: that next year down of pitching and what we've seen
Speaker 4: this year, I think he's he's in and around it.
Speaker 3: He looks great. Yeah, you know, I didn't do any pictures,
Speaker 3: so he was never going to make my list, But
Speaker 3: if we were doing a picture's only list, I think
Speaker 3: he would probably in the top ten.
Speaker 1: Now, yeah, I think he looks good this year, but
Speaker 1: he struggled for the first half of last year. I
Speaker 1: don't know if he's got two hundred ings in him, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he wouldn't be. I'd need to see it a lot
Speaker 1: more from him before I'd have him in my top
Speaker 1: ten pitchers, never mind top ten players. On Blue Sky,
Speaker 1: Adam korn Gold had Lars Newbar at five just by
Speaker 1: name alone. Hard to argue with that. He had James
Speaker 1: Wood at seven. I think it's a slightly tongue in
Speaker 1: cheek list James Wood's seven. He did have Rickie Henderson
Speaker 1: at six to two, under the premise that he might
Speaker 1: still be alive. Valley Junior we didn't discuss. I mean,
Speaker 1: another one of those guys where if you're just talking bat, maybe,
Speaker 1: but the all around game probably not.
Speaker 4: Lad was one definitely I thought about and ruled him
Speaker 4: out basically because it is just a bat.
Speaker 5: But he's very good.
Speaker 4: I mean, as you said, if he was a top
Speaker 4: ten hits list, he's probably in there. And again, if
Speaker 4: we're looking future focused, then he might be one of
Speaker 4: those guys you would have in there.
Speaker 5: Because you're expecting him to be good for quite a
Speaker 5: long period of time.
Speaker 3: I would put Henderson in over over Vlad. Future focused,
Speaker 3: I've definitely obviously I'll take free one out.
Speaker 4: Above lad as well focus Just to just to clarify
Speaker 4: for those Orioles listeners, I do still think he's a
Speaker 4: very good player.
Speaker 3: I thought I did think about James Wood. You know,
Speaker 3: he looks elite, to be honest, but again not not
Speaker 3: shown it enough. I mean, he's got five hundred Big
Speaker 3: League play appearances, like, give it some time.
Speaker 1: I was a James Wood non believer at the start
Speaker 1: of the season, and I've had to very quickly eat
Speaker 1: my words on that one. He does look very, very good.
Speaker 1: I think we've probably said enough players now to not
Speaker 1: massively upset a single fan base, but I'm sure there'll
Speaker 1: be someone we've missed.
Speaker 2: The people get very much.
Speaker 3: Who else did I write down? Matt Chapman? I wrote
Speaker 3: down Matt Chapman Giants.
Speaker 5: I've got to be honest, he at least crossed my mind.
Speaker 3: I mean, Matt Chapman is like it. He's not in
Speaker 3: the top ten, but if he's in the top twenty,
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 4: He's got a lot to his game. I mean, last
Speaker 4: year was really good, he started this year very well.
Speaker 4: He's a good, good baseball.
Speaker 2: Play baseball player.
Speaker 3: But Jackson Merrill I wrote down Jackson Merrill. Obviously he
Speaker 3: has been hurt to start this year, but season. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I wrote down Bryce you know, I know he doesn't
Speaker 3: do anything defensively anymore, but still an elite Here Lewis
Speaker 3: and I wrote down two catches. I write down the
Speaker 3: big dumper. Of course, I wrote down Patrick Bailey, who
Speaker 3: is just an absolute stud defensively.
Speaker 5: So and Louis I know he's obviously I wrote down
Speaker 5: Probably sneak on to the back end of this list.
Speaker 1: But now we definitely have named every single Major League
Speaker 1: baseball player that could possibly be discussed.
Speaker 3: Somebody is going to get mad that we haven't mentioned
Speaker 3: somebody mentioned Brent Brent Ricker. Yeah, is who is the
Speaker 3: best day of this season? I think hazing war? Actually,
Speaker 3: who's the well Jacob Wilson. Wilson no power, He's out
Speaker 3: to a hot start, but yeah, no power, no walks either,
Speaker 3: I don't think so Strum has hit home runs it
Speaker 3: and so stuck him in left field. So what are
Speaker 3: they doing? Really?
Speaker 1: I think you're the only person to even notice, Darius Unfortunately.
Speaker 3: Wow, this is the kind of thing that I notice.
Speaker 3: Well I only noticed because I was like, why why
Speaker 3: would you do this? Like the guy is absolutely on fire,
Speaker 3: and now we're going to ask him to do a
Speaker 3: position change. Yeah, that's that's what's happened to.
Speaker 2: Rafie Devers is onto something.
Speaker 3: He's onto something. Let's see Raphie Devers in the outfield.
Speaker 2: Come on, I'll see that makes it look so easy.
Speaker 1: Anyway, I think we've probably covered off enough of the
Speaker 1: players to end that segment. Will I'll type up each
Speaker 1: of our lists and get them on Socials and get
Speaker 1: some debate going. I'm sure people will be mad at us.
Speaker 1: They usually are, but do send in your own top
Speaker 1: tens or you know, any comments on our own lists
Speaker 1: and players you think we omitted for bad reasons and
Speaker 1: we'll yeah discuss again at some point of fun exercise,
Speaker 1: and I think we'll probably leave it there for today.
Speaker 1: We've obviously won for over an hour and now. So
Speaker 1: always have for me to say is thank you guys
Speaker 1: for joining me. Nick. Where can people find your work
Speaker 1: both on socials and on your podcast?
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you want to any Angels content so at
Speaker 4: La Angel's UK, and the podcast is halfway around the Halo.
Speaker 5: We've had some good guests on recently.
Speaker 4: It's worth of checking those out, and also check out
Speaker 4: MLBUK club House for all the upcoming events in the UK,
Speaker 4: and we're going to try and get not just in London,
Speaker 4: We're going to try and get some events sorted around
Speaker 4: the country this season as well, to get those meetups,
Speaker 4: get people coming together watching baseball, drigging some beer, eating food.
Speaker 5: It's a great time. So yeah, look at that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, second in on that one. They're always a good time.
Speaker 1: As much fun as it is to chat on the podcast,
Speaker 1: it's always better when we can do it in person
Speaker 1: with a beer. There's a lot of great content going
Speaker 1: onto the Backflips and Nerds website. Do you make sure
Speaker 1: you check that out. I think Ash has got a
Speaker 1: new post that's gone up in the last day or so,
Speaker 1: so make sure you give that a read. Darius is
Speaker 1: back from his holiday now, not Darius GAVs back from
Speaker 1: his holiday now, so I'm expecting the content to continue
Speaker 1: to go up and win. Darius, anything that you want
Speaker 1: to shout out before we finish up.
Speaker 3: I was going to shout out Ash, who's written about
Speaker 3: how good Jung Hulee is And when we do this
Speaker 3: exercise again next year, we'll all been debating whether Jung
Speaker 3: hu Lee is a top ten player in baseball.
Speaker 2: So there we go.
Speaker 1: Now we've mentioned him for the one person who would
Speaker 1: have called us out ash probably on not mentioning Jung
Speaker 1: Hu Lee.
Speaker 2: Well that just other for today. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1: We'll be back soon with another podcast, and yeah, do
Speaker 1: check out our work across the website and socials in
Speaker 1: the meantime and we'll catch you next time.
Speaker 2: Goodbye,