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See website for details. 45 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:16.400 Loop Tadian, you are now listening to True Murder, The 46 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:20.000 most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors 47 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:26.360 that have written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. 48 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:31.080 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 49 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:35.360 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 50 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:49.439 your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, gid You Deen. 51 00:02:50.199 --> 00:03:02.599 On May fifth, Pardon Me On May fifth. Nineteen ninety three, 52 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:07.159 second graders Christopher Byers, Stevie Branch, and Michael Moore disappeared 53 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:12.039 from their West Memphis, Arkansas homes. The following afternoon, their nude, beaten, 54 00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:15.080 and bound bodies were discovered in a drainage ditch less 55 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:19.479 than a mile away. After a troublesome confession, three local teenagers, 56 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:23.000 later dubbed the West Memphis Three, where arrested, tried, and 57 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:27.000 convicted in early nineteen ninety four. Jason Baldwin and Jesse 58 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:31.479 miss Kelly received life sentences, while ringleader Damian Eccles went 59 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:35.000 to death row. Three years later, the documentary film Paradise 60 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:38.759 Lost premiered on HBO, and the effect on the viewers 61 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:42.599 was dramatic. Many became skeptical of the verdicts and also 62 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:45.000 felt one of the fathers of the victims was a 63 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:52.120 better suspect. John Mark Byers. In Untying the Knot, author 64 00:03:52.199 --> 00:03:54.960 Greg Day tells the true story of John Mark Byers 65 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:57.000 and the about face he made to free them men 66 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:01.199 convicted of the crime, and Day exposes the propaganda campaign 67 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:04.280 used to convince a gullible public that Byers was complicit 68 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:07.319 in the death of his wife and son. Based on 69 00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:11.080 court transcripts and hours of personal interviews, Untying the Not 70 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:16.279 explores all the case evidence while interview weaving dialogues and statements. 71 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:19.120 It traces the life of Buyers from his roots in 72 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:22.199 rural Arkansas to his son's murder and the death of 73 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:26.480 his wife to his ultimate imprisonment in nineteen ninety nine. 74 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:30.399 Reveals a man redeemed by prison and whose change of 75 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:34.079 heart changed his life. The book that we're featuring this 76 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:37.720 evening is Untying the Not John Mark Byers and the 77 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:41.279 West Memphis Three, with my special guest journalist and author, 78 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:44.120 Greg Day. Welcome to the program and thank you for 79 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:45.079 agreeing this interview. 80 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:48.160 Greg Day, thanks for having me, Dan. 81 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:52.920 Thank you very much for joining us here. As I 82 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.759 mentioned when we discussed this is a follow up from 83 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:59.480 last week's show sort of a response to that program 84 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:04.399 for the incredible interest that this case had at the time, 85 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:09.839 still over this period of time, sustained by five movies 86 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:15.240 and or documentary films, all the books, all the discussions, 87 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:19.439 and all the still continued interest in Damien Echols, the 88 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:23.199 West Memphis three and all information surrounding it, and still 89 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:29.279 very very controversial and very very captivating for the audience worldwide. 90 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:34.199 So let's get to this right away. Let's tell us 91 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:38.759 what are the circumstances that you came to be involved 92 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:44.560 in this case and especially involved with Mark Byers, John 93 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:48.160 Mark Byers, and this book tell us those circumstances. 94 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:51.399 Yeah, unlike a lot of other people who most came 95 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:55.600 through to the case through the documentary films Paradise Lost, 96 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:57.959 I had never heard of the films, and I actually 97 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:00.519 had never heard of the crime. And I was just 98 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.920 doing a basic interset Internet walk around to try and 99 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:07.199 find in fact what I was interested in were capital cases, 100 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:11.199 and I came across this case and found that it 101 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:14.759 had a huge repository of evidence that was growing all 102 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:18.759 the time, that was being put online for people's review, 103 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:23.120 and of course their feeling was that the West Memphis 104 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:26.600 three had been wrongly convicted, and I was interested in 105 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:30.160 that as well, so I started picking through the documentations. 106 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:35.000 I eventually saw the two films, and I actually saw 107 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:40.240 the second Paradise Lost film first, and that was my 108 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:46.279 first introduction to John Mark Bers. Anybody who's seen that 109 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:49.160 as their first introduction to John Mark Bers, I mean 110 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:51.279 he was terrified. I mean it was to me anyway. 111 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:59.279 And I joined the message board and started conversing with 112 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:02.800 the people who were running it, who were three of 113 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:06.399 the people who were featured in the second film. They 114 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:11.120 between the second film and these three people, if they 115 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:15.839 don't happen, Damien Apples and his friends were rout in jail. 116 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:19.680 They'll never see the light of day, but they. 117 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:24.519 Were very were They were activists from southern California. But 118 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:27.199 in any event, I had a friend on that message 119 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:29.439 board who knew Mark Byers and thought that he needed 120 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:33.040 somebody to talk to. So I run a few emails 121 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:35.319 and he were a few back, and then I called 122 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:38.759 them and I had written a lot in different posts 123 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:42.399 on the message boards, and I guess he's thought that 124 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:45.600 that I understood his story and he wanted me to 125 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:47.639 tell it. So that's really and that was in two 126 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:48.360 thousand and five. 127 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:54.600 Now you mentioned those three activists, so mention their names 128 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:59.560 because they're very pivotal and reoccurring characters in this story. 129 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:03.319 Yeah, to say the least, we used to refer to 130 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:09.079 them as the kgb Uh. It was Kathy Bachen Grove 131 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:15.639 partially and Burke Saws Baccah Ends Sauls were in the 132 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:18.920 film business down California and passially it was a photographer 133 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:21.480 out there and they were all friends. And Kathy Bachhen 134 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:27.560 was doing the artwork for the first Paradise Lost film Possible, 135 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:30.319 it was the second Paradise of Boston, and when she's 136 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:33.399 got to preview the films, she sent along to Burke 137 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:36.759 Salls and knowing that he'd be interested in something like this, 138 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:41.240 and the three of them decided at that point that 139 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:43.679 the last number three were innocent, and they started a 140 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:49.480 website and started putting all sorts of original source documentation 141 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:51.639 that they were going to People were going to the 142 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:54.480 West Memphis Police Department and actually photo copying things and 143 00:08:55.080 --> 00:09:00.240 uh copying, transcribing recordings and putting them up on the internet. So, yeah, 144 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:03.480 those those people, uh, they didn't start the filming process 145 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:05.879 because there was already one film out when they came together, 146 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:12.519 but they gave it wings and between Paradise Bus two 147 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:17.519 and the KGB that that's what attracted. They all had contacts, 148 00:09:17.559 --> 00:09:21.279 you know, Hollywood type contacts, media people and whatnot. So 149 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:25.639 uh and that second film just, uh, it went off 150 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:30.240 like a like a bomb, mainly in my opinion because 151 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:33.039 of John Mark Byers. He gave them what they didn't 152 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:36.679 have prior to that, and that was an alternate suspect. 153 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:40.919 Because you and I both know that when uh, when 154 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:45.200 when someone's on trial, especially for murder, and uh, they 155 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:48.080 don't really have, you know, a good alibi and there's 156 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:51.200 some evidence against them, their best hope for being exonerated 157 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:54.120 is finding an alternate suspect. And John Mark Buyers set 158 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:57.879 the boat perfectly. He was believable. He was a crazy redneck, 159 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:03.840 uh and he he performed for the cameras better than 160 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:07.399 they could have expected. He and as Maror Lebert also 161 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:10.720 lasted onto him at that time, he became the fact 162 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:12.799 though alternate suspect of choice. 163 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:18.320 Well, to be fair though, I mean, of course they 164 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:21.960 need somebody ultimately to be a suspect. If you're going 165 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:26.879 to say that these three are innocent and certainly John 166 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:31.879 Mark Byers cooperated. So please elaborate for audience what you 167 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:36.080 mean by that, because you explain about even the cash incentive, 168 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:39.120 and why would somebody do something like that? Well, and 169 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.879 the offer of money is not exorbitan, So tell us 170 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:46.320 the circumstances that they were in and then tell us 171 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:50.679 how and why was he performing like that? What were 172 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:55.799 some other factors in that performance besides being a grieving father, 173 00:10:55.960 --> 00:10:57.120 if we were to look at it. 174 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:01.399 Well as the beginning in the end, when this this 175 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:04.639 sum of cash not being exorbitant is a relative thing, 176 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:09.320 uh to you and I is probably not exorbitant. But 177 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:11.360 the way a lot of these people were living out there, 178 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:13.879 if you had ever driven through the trailer parks where 179 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:18.120 miss Kelly Baldwin and uh and Eckles came from. And 180 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:20.600 by the way, the trailer park was a step up 181 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:23.879 for Eccles, Uh, you know, it starts to relative to 182 00:11:23.960 --> 00:11:27.559 people who were on disability or you know, unemployment, they 183 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:32.960 weren't working, They Mark puzzled drugs and all for relatively 184 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:35.000 small amount of money. He was a jeweler by trade, 185 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.440 and he did have a short period of time where 186 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:42.039 he was profitable at that, but it it didn't last. 187 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:45.840 So but you're right in saying that the money was 188 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:53.600 not the big bush. Mark Mark pires is. He's an 189 00:11:53.639 --> 00:12:01.399 attention junkie. And when he to give you an example 190 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:04.120 of this, one of the hearings out there, when the 191 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:07.639 berlinger and the filmmakers were following them around, he was 192 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:10.799 just going to person to person, just trying to find 193 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:14.240 the last journalist who had a microphone or a camera on. 194 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:17.919 He wouldn't go home until the last you know, and 195 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.519 this was, you know, very shortly after his son's murder. 196 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:24.080 I thought at the time maybe it was cathartic. I 197 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.840 don't know, but he was. He was very much. And 198 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:30.080 if you've seen the movies, particularly the second one, the 199 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:33.799 scenes at the braveyard, the burying of the mock rays, 200 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:37.480 there are just these scenes that you can't imagine somebody 201 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:40.799 sitting there like if it was you and there always 202 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:43.240 holding a camera in front of you, you know that 203 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:45.960 you would that you would be able to perform like that. 204 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:50.519 But but you know, but Mark could it. And I 205 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:54.759 know that seems it seems like a little bit trite, but. 206 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:56.679 It had. 207 00:12:56.919 --> 00:12:58.840 It had a lot to do with And then he 208 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:03.480 got angry because once people started accusing him based on 209 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.799 his h you know, his appearances. He started getting angry, 210 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:11.960 he was he was drinking and the drugs, and he was, 211 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:16.840 by his own admission, was heavily under the influence, particularly 212 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:24.120 during the second the second film, and that that changes somebody. 213 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.240 But I mean, I can't imagine anything, but at least 214 00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:30.559 at that point in time later on, when he when 215 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:32.480 he thought he had an alternate suspect and he wanted 216 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:36.279 to join the bandwagon or start the bandwagon, I can 217 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:38.159 see it that at that point, all I see is 218 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:42.000 that he was he for whatever reason, wanted. 219 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:48.720 The attention, right, What was it in the film? Because 220 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:52.720 I mean, millions, millions of people, far more people than 221 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:57.720 they're going to read all the books written about this case. 222 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:00.919 Far more people will get their impression of the cases 223 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:05.759 from the films and the documentaries. And so what in 224 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:09.240 the documentary in the second one, other than Mark Buyer's 225 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:14.919 acting crazy because supposedly they're presenting factual information. And what 226 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:17.120 the interesting way you put in the book is that 227 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:20.759 your book is an examination of facts versus opinion. And 228 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:23.080 when there is going to be an opinion rather than 229 00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:25.360 the fact, you're going to speculate that. So we're going 230 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:28.120 to go through that for the people that that's what 231 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:30.240 they're really really looking for, and that's what you really 232 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:33.120 provide in this book as well. So let's talk about 233 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:35.879 what the film, if anything, they did in that second 234 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:40.759 film to say supported their claim and this very big 235 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:43.720 claim that not only was the West Memphis Three innocent, 236 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:47.879 but in fact John Mark Byers. What was the evidence 237 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:49.799 that they presented in that film. 238 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:53.559 Well, I didn't really think they presented very much evidence 239 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:57.919 at all, and so much of it circled back to 240 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:03.639 Mark Buyer's personality. There's Baldwin's defense team is together in 241 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:06.279 one scene and a guy named James or Azakat is 242 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:09.559 talking about how you know, Mark was the kind of 243 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:11.480 guy who he was big enough to have carried the 244 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:13.679 three bodies, He had the motive, he was a jeweler, 245 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:19.440 he had the skill to do the the hammutation of 246 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:25.840 the tea, yeah right, and which it was never really proven. 247 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:31.679 But in any event, there were circumstantial things like that 248 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:34.480 that they were already pointing towards him. I didn't see 249 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:39.799 any real evidence in either one of those films. The 250 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:43.200 first real evidence I saw came when Damian Echols had 251 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:47.159 enough money to hire a very high powered defense team, 252 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:54.759 forensic experts, FBI profilers and start finding and even then 253 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:56.879 the evidence was thinned that they found something in the movie, 254 00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:59.879 I don't think they presented anything more than circumstantial. They have, 255 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:02.360 of course, went to the things that everybody goes to, 256 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:09.600 the Miss Kelly confession, and Joe and Bruce managed to. 257 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:13.679 They would segue these scenes with these little tech screens 258 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:17.759 that would help the viewer hear what he was about 259 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:26.000 to see, and they would say things like Jesse ms 260 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:32.919 Kelly was interrogated for twelve hours before confession. Now I 261 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:34.480 went through that again before I got on the air 262 00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:36.759 to find out an exact timeline, because Miss Kelly actually 263 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:43.919 gave four different confessions, one pre conviction to three post conviction, 264 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:47.519 and he had only been at the police station about 265 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:50.039 three and a half hours before he first filled the beans. 266 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:52.759 They kept him there for twelve hours, but he went 267 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:54.799 in around eleven o'clock in the morning and by twelve 268 00:16:54.840 --> 00:17:01.240 thirty or two thirty, I mean, after failing a polygraph 269 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:03.200 and they said, well, he only had an IQ seventy, 270 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:06.160 so that's why he cracked. I go, yeah, okay, but 271 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.720 anytime miss Kenny tried to to remove himself from the situation. 272 00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:14.599 To me, it made him closer to the situation, like 273 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:18.440 by saying that he chased after Michael Moore during the 274 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:23.400 murders and brought him back and then he left. So 275 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:25.880 what he was saying in his idiot's mind was that, 276 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:29.200 you know, all I do was bring him back and 277 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:32.279 then I left. And he said several times during the confession, 278 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:34.839 and then I left, okay, and then it was then 279 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:40.119 I left. His confession was was in my a strong 280 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.240 piece of evidence against him, and they tried to prevent 281 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:49.119 it as its sculptory evidence. So I honestly can't think 282 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:52.359 of things they came that they came up. Well, let 283 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:55.759 me let me correct that. They also found blood in 284 00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:00.880 what became known as the John Mark Byers knife, and 285 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:03.640 it was a knife that Mark had given to a 286 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:08.359 crew member of the filming team, and they had noticed 287 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:10.559 there was some material and it looked like blood, and 288 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:13.279 they had test and found out that it was consistent 289 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:16.519 with Mark's blood and Christopher's blood, which was kind of 290 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:19.319 curious because Christopher was an adoptive son. He was in 291 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:23.720 a biological son. But they tried to question him on 292 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:27.759 the stand to get him, you know, the defense, to 293 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:30.839 get him to somehow a trip up, and he was 294 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:35.759 very confused, and you could tell that he was drugged. 295 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:38.799 Everybody at the trial was drugged all the at least 296 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:44.319 on the victim's parents team. They were on valume. And 297 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:46.920 this is from I'm getting this from them, not from 298 00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:52.000 anyone else, but Mark was If Mark appeared confused on 299 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:55.880 his an end, he probably was. But they couldn't get 300 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:59.920 a straight answer out of him about where that blood 301 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:04.160 came from. And that was probably the strongest piece of 302 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.240 evidence that they had, because when he got off the stand, 303 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:10.039 I think a lot of people in the jury weren't 304 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:11.680 quite sure of what to make of him. He didn't, 305 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:16.680 he didn't, he didn't clear himself. But in the end, 306 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:20.839 it just didn't. They couldn't match any of the eyes 307 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:22.519 they had, they had two guys, and they couldn't match 308 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:27.160 him with the wounds. So and in fact, those myphoones 309 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:31.160 would be the subject of questions for another fifteen years 310 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:35.720 to this day. The new defense team thinks they are 311 00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:37.400 turtle lights. 312 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.519 Well let's get to that. And you do talk about 313 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:46.720 this because last week's guests, William Ramsey, really I posed 314 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.240 a question to him, and I really asked it, like, 315 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:53.680 do you really believe that a guy like Johnny Depp 316 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:59.039 really believes in every tenet of Alistair Crowley? In that 317 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:02.519 he belie he's in human sacrifice? I said, I can't believe. 318 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:05.000 Do you really believe he could believe in human sacrifice, 319 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:08.680 let alone animal sacrifice? He's probably a vegan, I says, 320 00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:11.200 for God's sakes, you know. And he still said no. 321 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.079 I think he's a fellow traveler of Alistair Crowley. And 322 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:17.920 so that's where he is, you know, and that's what 323 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:23.359 he firmly, he firmly believes. But in your book, you well, 324 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:25.839 you have a more objective tone, we'll say the least, 325 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:30.480 talk about who was really the instrumental people and the 326 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:33.759 admirable job that they did do in once they believed 327 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:36.079 in the cause. Tell us about that, because it's a 328 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:40.599 fascinating true story of Hollywood, not just making some noise 329 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:43.759 or some rock stars behind the car. I mean, they've 330 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:47.400 been again admirable in other causes like live Aid and 331 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:50.759 farm Aid and some admirable things. But again, this is 332 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:55.119 something very very very big. If their convictions on these 333 00:20:55.160 --> 00:21:00.720 people's innocence is true, they did a very very impressive 334 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:04.240 and profound thing. Really here, So tell us about the 335 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:08.200 effort by and who those people were to get these 336 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:10.559 people this new evidence. 337 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:17.200 Yeah, you're right, this was practically unprecedented. I think the 338 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:21.559 only thing that ever surprised me more was either O. J. 339 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:28.559 Simpson being acquitted or Casey Anthony being quitted. But the 340 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:30.680 way they did it was nothing compared to the West 341 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:37.640 Memphis theory. This case was singular they because the first 342 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:40.160 thing that came out was a book by a couple 343 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:45.119 of Arkansas journalists. But a Blood of Innocents was made 344 00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:47.440 of the book, and it was just a pretty straightforward 345 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.240 count of the case, and I didn't get a whole 346 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:56.599 lot of attention. And it wasn't until Paradise Loss came along, 347 00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.599 and with the first film they were getting some lower 348 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:04.400 level people like Michael Grade from the Misfits, Margaret cho 349 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:08.599 I think even back then they might have gotten Eddie 350 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:14.839 better involved. And as Echol's wife points out, they would 351 00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:16.160 not be where they are. 352 00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:18.480 If it wasn't for Eddiebody, Eddie Betterer. 353 00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:23.960 He did more than anybody, except to say that Johnny Depp, 354 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:27.680 who was supposedly according to Joe I spoke with Joe. 355 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.039 He said, well, you know that has been calling for years. 356 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:31.759 Every year he calls me and asked me to stay 357 00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:33.480 to the case. You know, those bets still in prison. 358 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:38.640 And so so allegedly Depp was was very was very 359 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:42.480 disturbed by it. And when it got to the point 360 00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:46.920 where they raised a certain amount of money, and I'll 361 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:49.720 say that at that point, the most important person, the 362 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:54.759 key person, was Laurie Davis. He goes, they had money, 363 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:57.279 you know, coming in before that, but they didn't have 364 00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:02.279 anybody direct in the effort. And Laurie Davis, without a 365 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:06.839 whole lot of connections, started contacting these people. She knew 366 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:09.000 about that E. So she got ahold of E personally. 367 00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:12.960 But you know, she had practically ran a publicity office 368 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:17.240 for people to call in, and so she hooked up 369 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.160 all these people and she started taking the money that 370 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:22.160 they were giving her and doing what nobody else had done, 371 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:25.759 and that was hiring friends, that's experts and legal people. 372 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.440 That was the West Memphis Three's main problem is they 373 00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:36.000 had public defender grade lawyers and no money for to 374 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:38.599 prepare their case. Usually, if you're an indigen you get 375 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:42.920 the port will give you some money to collect evidence 376 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:44.519 on it, but they didn't do that, and so she 377 00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:51.160 started spreading that money around. She hired Dennis Ardan who's 378 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:55.279 he worked on the Nightstalker case and I think in 379 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:57.599 the appeals he was part of the appeals and that 380 00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.400 was his thing, is that he was a federal appellatetan 381 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:03.920 UH lawyer, and he started assembling the legal team. She 382 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:07.160 got John Dogliz Uh to go out and start talking 383 00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:07.640 to people. 384 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:08.319 Uh. 385 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.519 She got the evidence reexamined. There's been d n DNA 386 00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:16.119 events that they had collected. You know, from the beginning, 387 00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:19.519 I was just sitting in an evidence room because the 388 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:21.519 judge wouldn't give them any money to have it tested. 389 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:23.200 So she got. 390 00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:29.039 The okay, Round two. 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