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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 7: Good Evening, the author of the true crime classic Lobster Boy,
Speaker 7: now turns his investigative skills to the chilling true story
Speaker 7: of Kendel Francois, one of the most bizarre serial sex
Speaker 7: killers of modern times. In October nineteen ninety six, young, pretty,
Speaker 7: and petite women began vanishing off the streets of Poughkeepsie,
Speaker 7: New York. Most were prostitutes and some were attics. By
Speaker 7: August nineteen ninety eight, the toll had reached eight, when
Speaker 7: a prostitute told police that she had barely escaped being
Speaker 7: strangled by Kendel Francois twenty seven, a six foot four
Speaker 7: to three hundred pound middle school hall monitor whose slovenly
Speaker 7: personal hygiene had earned them the nickname Stinky. Inside his house,
Speaker 7: houses the smell was much worse as investigators discovered a
Speaker 7: tangle of rotting flesh and bones eight female corpses, almost
Speaker 7: all decomposed. The book that we were featuring this evening
Speaker 7: is Body Dump with my special guest journalist and author
Speaker 7: Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, and thank you
Speaker 7: for agreeing to this interview.
Speaker 4: Fred Rosen, Hello, Dan, how the heck are you tonight?
Speaker 7: Very good? Thank you very much Fred for doing this
Speaker 7: SCE again. A'm gonna be a great show because this
Speaker 7: is another you've uncovered or another incredible tale. So let's
Speaker 7: talk about we had spoken last night, so we'll let
Speaker 7: we'll let the audience know that. Oh yeah, sure that
Speaker 7: everything was set.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just we just have to admit this. We
Speaker 4: we spoke last night and the entire conversation was about
Speaker 4: deflate Gate, and we're working on that, folks. We just
Speaker 4: want to let everybody know that we're going after Brady. Okay,
Speaker 4: just let's let you know this stuff. You know, this
Speaker 4: is a combined international operations you know, and uh, and
Speaker 4: we're going after him. So we just go we let
Speaker 4: you know this stuff.
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, kind of serious stuff we're now working on you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, go after No. I was just going to say,
Speaker 4: you know what it is. I learned years ago from
Speaker 4: some cops and then prosecutors dan that when you work
Speaker 4: murder cases, if you don't kid around, you're gonna go nuts.
Speaker 4: You gotta kid around, you know, I mean, you know
Speaker 4: one of that's one of the hard parts when you're
Speaker 4: writing a book is you know the cops are not
Speaker 4: going to tell you the jokes they said, you know
Speaker 4: what I mean, But because they're just trying to keep alive,
Speaker 4: and because you know they're affected emotionally by the cases,
Speaker 4: the good ones, that's when they solve those cases. I
Speaker 4: don't know. I just put my true cents in on
Speaker 4: there and.
Speaker 7: That no, I actually I spoke. There was a particular
Speaker 7: case again in my hometown, where there was a recorded
Speaker 7: version or a reported version of a police officer in
Speaker 7: this little out of context recording was that that he
Speaker 7: had no regard for the murder victim and they were
Speaker 7: for me. Yeah. But as you know, as I've learned
Speaker 7: over the years, and it keeps getting reinforced, there's always
Speaker 7: two or three different sides to the story. So a
Speaker 7: police officers that noted that it was posted said, yeah,
Speaker 7: but here's the real story. And so the real detailed
Speaker 7: story was of a cop saying, yeah this, you know this,
Speaker 7: what do you call it? Gallows humor? And the reason
Speaker 7: why even even there was a gallows there was a
Speaker 7: rationale for why that even the joke was even said.
Speaker 7: And so an explanation must say, so two different stories.
Speaker 4: No, man, that makes a great point, you know. I mean,
Speaker 4: here we are in a situation, you know, where it
Speaker 4: doesn't make any difference what the case is as soon
Speaker 4: as it breaks and it's about murder. You see it
Speaker 4: all over the place without having the sources checked out
Speaker 4: and so forth, and then what happens perception becomes reality,
Speaker 4: you know, and that makes Man, does that make it difficult?
Speaker 4: You know, when you're investigating something, whether you're a cop
Speaker 4: or whether you're you know, a reporter, you know, or
Speaker 4: maybe one of the avengers, you know. No, no, hey,
Speaker 4: I got that in there. You go sorry with this book.
Speaker 7: With this book, Fred, which was interesting is that in
Speaker 7: our conversation we just touched on something that normally we
Speaker 7: don't talk about so much, and we really get to
Speaker 7: the nuts and bolts of the story. And we certainly
Speaker 7: will to this one.
Speaker 4: But I want to ask.
Speaker 7: The first question is that you want let why don't
Speaker 7: you explain how involved you were in this story, what
Speaker 7: you had to do. You talk about having to move
Speaker 7: to this town, tell us why, and you talked about
Speaker 7: ask me about how I got some of these interviews
Speaker 7: or the people I had to speak to, and the
Speaker 7: idea that they were going to write a book about
Speaker 7: an African American serial killer. So tell us a little
Speaker 7: bit of loot about before we start.
Speaker 4: Well, let me just say to people that it's wonderful
Speaker 4: that you're listening in because Dan and I are able
Speaker 4: to actually communicate before we go on air, and we're
Speaker 4: not setting up stick what you do, which I would
Speaker 4: do with other hosts. What we're doing is is we're
Speaker 4: actually talking about how we're going to spend your time
Speaker 4: and the information we're going to give you. And so
Speaker 4: what happened with me was that when this case broke,
Speaker 4: that is when Kendall france While was captured and he
Speaker 4: gave a confession which he said he killed these women.
Speaker 4: And what happened was I happened to be living at
Speaker 4: the time about thirty miles away. This is a very
Speaker 4: very unusual circumstance. It'll never happen again in order do
Speaker 4: I want it to, because it's nice to keep this stuff,
Speaker 4: you know, at at you know, at the arm's length.
Speaker 4: But what happened was I read this and it said,
Speaker 4: you know this dude who was captured, who was a
Speaker 4: serial killer, and blah blah blah. And I said, gee, man,
Speaker 4: you're right, true crime. You're supposed to investigate this. So
Speaker 4: I went from where I lived to Poughkeepsie, and I
Speaker 4: started looking into it, and I did a proposal on
Speaker 4: the book, and I sent it into the publisher. But
Speaker 4: what happened was, at the time it was so horrific
Speaker 4: Dan I'd never worked on the case, been involved more
Speaker 4: than one or perhaps two victims. Yeah, two victims. So
Speaker 4: I said, oh man, this is not my cup of tea.
Speaker 4: And simultaneously, the other thing was that I had been
Speaker 4: told by by off I'm sorry editors at two different
Speaker 4: publishing houses, major publishing houses I'd worked for, to never
Speaker 4: touch a case involving an African American. And here I
Speaker 4: had a guy who was accused of being an African American,
Speaker 4: a serial killer who was African American. So I said, well,
Speaker 4: you know what, I don't really care what his races.
Speaker 4: It's a good story, let's investigate. And I went ahead
Speaker 4: with it. And originally I wasn't going to write it.
Speaker 4: A home a student of mine was going to write it,
Speaker 4: but he couldn't do it. And at the last minute
Speaker 4: I stepped in and I wrote the book. And in
Speaker 4: order to write the book, I had a problem, and
Speaker 4: that was that it was hard to get people to
Speaker 4: talk to me about it. So I got a job
Speaker 4: teaching at Marist College in Pikeepsie, New York per year
Speaker 4: during which time I taught at Marris and I went
Speaker 4: out on the street and I took to the people
Speaker 4: involved in the case.
Speaker 7: Incredible.
Speaker 4: I don't know, well, you know what it was. You know,
Speaker 4: this was It's fun, you know, it was. It was weird.
Speaker 4: I don't know what else to tell you. I mean,
Speaker 4: you know, it was it was close to me, you
Speaker 4: know what I mean. I mean, you know, I mean
Speaker 4: we're talking serial killer and here, you know, I'm this
Speaker 4: you know, true crime author, and this dude is almost
Speaker 4: in my backyard. And he was a particularly you know,
Speaker 4: his nickname was Stinky guys. I mean, you know, the
Speaker 4: original title of the book was Stinky And I guess
Speaker 4: thank God, the the editor interested to body them. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I think you know, I mean it's I mean, just
Speaker 4: think about that, you know, you know, it's it's really
Speaker 4: strange and and and the older part actually has a
Speaker 4: lot to do with what happens later on.
Speaker 7: Sure, well, let's start at the beginning, because we talk
Speaker 7: about Poughkeepsie, but we also have to talk about Highland
Speaker 7: and then it's connection to and then how small is
Speaker 7: Highland is? Really what does Spoughkeepsie represent, because that's the
Speaker 7: you know, the crux of our story here is the
Speaker 7: not the divide, what the contrast, I would say. So
Speaker 7: let's talk about Highland and it's small population, and then
Speaker 7: the bridge boy Poughkeepsie and the different the difference.
Speaker 4: You know something, I have to tell you something, Dann.
Speaker 4: I knew that we were going. Obviously we can be
Speaker 4: doing this interview, and it happens. I still live in
Speaker 4: the area, and I have to go down from where
Speaker 4: I lived to New York City to take a TV
Speaker 4: show for Investigation Discovery, right, and I went through Highland,
Speaker 4: you know, and I've been down that road. It's it's
Speaker 4: you know, for a long time, it's not in w
Speaker 4: and New York State and the thing is, Highland is
Speaker 4: a very small, very small town, you know, withs a
Speaker 4: main trag basically sure, uh do people still say that
Speaker 4: main track? And uh May Highway, May Highway. And there
Speaker 4: is a string of hotels there still there. I looked,
Speaker 4: I looked the other day, and these hotels are catered
Speaker 4: to prostitutes. Still the same, you know. And across that,
Speaker 4: and then what happens is when you go a little
Speaker 4: bit further south, you get to the Poughkeepsie Bridge, which
Speaker 4: then goes across the Hudson River to the city of Poughkeepsie,
Speaker 4: which is on the east bank of the of the
Speaker 4: of the river in what's called the Hudson Valley. Now
Speaker 4: that city is not quite a city. That's where he
Speaker 4: gets confusing. There's the city of Poughkeepsie and the town
Speaker 4: of Poughkeepsie. Then these guys must be up all night
Speaker 4: and this stuff. You know, how do you figure this
Speaker 4: stuff out? Okay? In other words, now you got yourself
Speaker 4: three different police forces in the same place. You got county,
Speaker 4: you got city, and you got town. And that helps
Speaker 4: when you're a bad guy like Kembell Francois who's moving
Speaker 4: from one to the other and when I say one
Speaker 4: to the other folks, I'm talking one city block. Okay,
Speaker 4: So so you're seeing. What we're saying here is that
Speaker 4: you have a serial killer who was able to operate
Speaker 4: partly because of geography and because of you know whatever
Speaker 4: these arbitrary you know, boundaries that have been made for
Speaker 4: tax burs you know, so you know, this is this
Speaker 4: is the place that he was working in. And I
Speaker 4: would I was teaching at the school, and I'd go
Speaker 4: out and I you know, after I teach, and in
Speaker 4: the afternoon, and I sort of you know, right around,
Speaker 4: and I would do you know, I started to do
Speaker 4: my interviews with Bill Seacrest, who is the lieutenant in
Speaker 4: charge of the investigation, who's really responsible for bringing the
Speaker 4: serial killer injustice. And what what happened is he and
Speaker 4: I would go down to the Hudson River. I think
Speaker 4: any river it could be the same, Lawrence, I don't
Speaker 4: care what it is, and you know, could be the Mississippi,
Speaker 4: could be the Ohio. And we go down and we'd look,
Speaker 4: you know, he'd get a you know, the right down Delia.
Speaker 4: So we get some really good, you know, uh sandwiches.
Speaker 4: And I talked to him and he would tell me
Speaker 4: about the Kendall, France wack case. And he told me
Speaker 4: all about how you know, he started getting into it
Speaker 4: and so forth, and this took about a year to
Speaker 4: get him to trust me.
Speaker 7: Now you start off introducing, of course the victims as
Speaker 7: an then portraying what information you find out about these
Speaker 7: poor souls that end up first usually a drug addiction
Speaker 7: and then this low track prostitution. And you first talk
Speaker 7: in the first chapter, you talk about Wendy Myers and
Speaker 7: so she has to she gets a ride over this
Speaker 7: Hudson River. Here into Bokeepsie tell us a little bit
Speaker 7: about Wendy Myers and her a little bit about her background.
Speaker 7: She ends up where she.
Speaker 4: Is, well, I mean, like a lot of the One
Speaker 4: of the commonalities that I found when I did my
Speaker 4: research into the backgrounds of the victims who were prostitutes
Speaker 4: with that they all have problems and eventually those problems
Speaker 4: led them to drugs in the street. And the part
Speaker 4: that I really found interesting was the fact that in
Speaker 4: most instances, please will look at prostitutes excuse me, as
Speaker 4: second class citizens. So they're not all that interested, you
Speaker 4: know what I mean. They don't have regular jobs, they
Speaker 4: don't pay taxes. They're not looked at as being a
Speaker 4: regular person. And it takes a unique personality like a
Speaker 4: Bill Siegrist and a Jimmy Ailing or two of the
Speaker 4: cops in the story to look at these people as
Speaker 4: human beings, and then by doing that they're able to
Speaker 4: eclipse their similar background. Again, it's going to the drugs,
Speaker 4: you know, and reading to prostitution and take it to
Speaker 4: the next step, which is to find the dude who
Speaker 4: did it. And that's what I found really nice, which
Speaker 4: was that you had people that would do this.
Speaker 7: The we will for the sake of going through all
Speaker 7: the stories of all the victims and not to you know,
Speaker 7: just brush over their their lives and their deaths in
Speaker 7: this in this story, but this talk about Kendall Francois,
Speaker 7: who this guy you talked, You said, he's a stinky guy.
Speaker 7: He's a huge man. But you go back into the
Speaker 7: book and talk about his earlier life, even at the
Speaker 7: time he's living with his parents. So you would talk
Speaker 7: about his early life and tell us a little bit
Speaker 7: about Kendell Francois.
Speaker 4: Well. One of the problems, the first thing is that
Speaker 4: one of the problems in particular cases that the perpetrator's
Speaker 4: family has not made any public states regarding him, and
Speaker 4: so therefore, you know, you go with whatever the record is.
Speaker 4: So what we know for sure is that he grew
Speaker 4: up in with his parents and his sister, and this
Speaker 4: is to keep seeing New York, and so we know
Speaker 4: that they were that what he did with the bodies
Speaker 4: was to dispose of them in the house. And I
Speaker 4: get into that obviously in the book. And of course
Speaker 4: the real question then comes in. Okay, you're taking seven
Speaker 4: bodies because the eighth was never discovered, and you're putting
Speaker 4: him in a house in the middle of this town. Okay, okay,
Speaker 4: people next door and other you know, the other people
Speaker 4: smelled something, but yet the family never made any statement
Speaker 4: about you see what I'm saying about smelling anything. Now,
Speaker 4: I'm not implying anything whatsoever. I'm just stating what we
Speaker 4: know as public records. So good excuse me. So what
Speaker 4: we have here is a situation where this guy is
Speaker 4: growing up. We don't have much and we don't have
Speaker 4: much in the way of background. We just don't, which
Speaker 4: is a shame, you know, but we just don't. What
Speaker 4: we do know is that he winds up going and
Speaker 4: becoming a middle school monitor. We're not talking about you know,
Speaker 4: you know, some guy from Deliverance. We're talking about guy's
Speaker 4: got a brain, but for some reason he has a
Speaker 4: problem with hygiene.
Speaker 7: And there's no incidence that, like you're saying, this guy.
Speaker 7: Also he's an intelligent guy, so we're not with this
Speaker 7: this he's got disappearance. He's a huge man, like I say,
Speaker 7: six flow war three hundred pounds, but he's he's got
Speaker 7: an incredible hygiene problem. And this is a long standing
Speaker 7: hygiene problem and continues through his entire life to the
Speaker 7: end of the story here. Yeah, yeah, you do talk
Speaker 7: about him being taunted for being fat in overweight, so
Speaker 7: he he certainly wasn't He didn't have an idyllic life
Speaker 7: growing up. But he's like you say, he doesn't mount
Speaker 7: to something and and there's no real incident in contact
Speaker 7: with police in terms of him being this sometimes creepy
Speaker 7: hall monitor type guy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Dan, that's a very very oh my god, I'm wow,
Speaker 4: that's an incredible point. Uh, Folks. Our host just pointed
Speaker 4: out that there's no there's no evidence whatsoever that the
Speaker 4: serial filler ever was a personal molested a human being.
Speaker 4: This is and you know, I hadn't even thought about that,
Speaker 4: But that's excellent, and that's true. There's nothing beer, however,
Speaker 4: there isn't however, however, which is that? Oh boy? When
Speaker 4: I when I was researching this story the dude round
Speaker 4: up in Hawaii in the nineteen nineties in the Army,
Speaker 4: I you know, in my fantasy Dan comment, at any
Speaker 4: point I was ready to call Steve mcgarrett at Hawaii five. Oh, however,
Speaker 4: since that doesn't exist, you know, I just you know,
Speaker 4: midical for the Hawaiian Police Department. And the reason is,
Speaker 4: I think hawwoulu rather because there was a string of
Speaker 4: unsolved serial killings of women there at the time. Candle
Speaker 4: Francois served in the Army.
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Speaker 4: They never got the big car M and I got
Speaker 4: the information later after the book was published from somebody
Speaker 4: that seem to implicate him. Didn't that, you know, and
Speaker 4: you know how it goes, you know, you know, when
Speaker 4: they bust you for some serial killing over here, the
Speaker 4: cops over there charted. More often than not it's something else,
Speaker 4: but sometimes it's it's, you know.
Speaker 7: Legit with this. What's interesting, too, is all the when
Speaker 7: we're going to be talking about the polygraph, oh incident,
Speaker 7: and what's interesting about that. You can almost go often
Speaker 7: about one hundred pages on you know, how many cases
Speaker 7: hinged on that, how many police officers take that as
Speaker 7: gospel and eliminate a witness And there's scores of books
Speaker 7: where that would be the case. Wow, my god, he
Speaker 7: passed a polygraph of flying colors. And well, so we'll
Speaker 7: talk about that. Let's first talk about them, because again,
Speaker 7: when somebody is looking at crimes in Honolu later, if
Speaker 7: the mo O is not similar, then that's going to
Speaker 7: be something that's going to live that as a possibility.
Speaker 7: So let's talk about Stinky's mo O and what was
Speaker 7: he interested in life when he was a predator?
Speaker 4: Yeah, and what we know is and the reason we
Speaker 4: know this is because he confessed and then the forensics
Speaker 4: factor und it was a situation where they really didn't
Speaker 4: once he confessed, oh boy, because of the differences between
Speaker 4: the town and the city. It was a different you know,
Speaker 4: one police force caught him for stuff he did in
Speaker 4: the other jurisdiction, they interrogated him, but they didn't interrogate
Speaker 4: him a long time, which is what they should have done. Okay,
Speaker 4: you know he gets much information if you can't. But
Speaker 4: in any case, they got lucked out. Well they got
Speaker 4: very very lucky. Boy I didn't say that. Yeah, they
Speaker 4: got some advice from the I mean it's an unusual
Speaker 4: you know what, here I go. I'm gonna put my
Speaker 4: two cents in and then all the people that have
Speaker 4: bashed me in the past on your show for saying
Speaker 4: something about the FBI can do it again. And what
Speaker 4: happened was the FBI gave them an infokeepsie some advice
Speaker 4: and the FBI said, hey, set up a roadblock, which
Speaker 4: they did and as a result, actually in this particular case,
Speaker 4: it worked. A prostituted and assaulted by candle France Wire
Speaker 4: escaped and was able to get out of his house
Speaker 4: and by coincidence, run into the world block and that's
Speaker 4: what started the whole investigation going, which essentially included archaeologists.
Speaker 7: You talk about. We just talked about the question. So
Speaker 7: we'll do that and then we'll go backwards because he
Speaker 7: does confess. Otherwise no one would know a thing that
Speaker 7: Bill secret. Is this key character in here too, and
Speaker 7: we'll go backwards too. Is how close with Cantella and
Speaker 7: the dog search that they had, the rescue dog search,
Speaker 7: and then Bill's ideas in retrospect, what could have been
Speaker 7: done before if they knew, if only they knew. So
Speaker 7: let's talk about when Francois is captured, because we've talked
Speaker 7: about that already. They do this, They do an interview,
Speaker 7: and it's again because of the jurisdictions, there's different police
Speaker 7: doing the interview rather than the people that were like Bill,
Speaker 7: that were pounding the pavements. So these people may be
Speaker 7: mistake but end up luckily later they do this interview
Speaker 7: and just ask them about this rape of this Diane
Speaker 7: franco And luckily they have a roadblock and then a
Speaker 7: gas station agent says, yeah, she's just running down the
Speaker 7: street right now. She said she was raped by this guy,
Speaker 7: So tell us about that.
Speaker 4: Well, the thing is, before we go to then, I
Speaker 4: just realized I hadn't answered to your last question, which
Speaker 4: was about m you know, in terms of and I'm
Speaker 4: losing return of foot here, No, just in terms of
Speaker 4: you know, how.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 4: One of the things that's really interesting about this is
Speaker 4: how it was covered. Okay, how do eight women mind
Speaker 4: of tearing off the streets of a major American city
Speaker 4: and no priest is a word. I mean, that's a
Speaker 4: lot of people, you know. And one of the things
Speaker 4: that happens here is because Frans Fois is known as
Speaker 4: a known john, that they bring them in and they
Speaker 4: do a Tony brand a truth light detector. I was
Speaker 4: gonna say truth detector, light detector, and what happens They say, Oh,
Speaker 4: do you have anything to do with any of these women?
Speaker 4: Just no, I don't any to do it. Ten. This
Speaker 4: is a primary example of fly light detectors in the
Speaker 4: US are not allowed those deep piece of evidence into
Speaker 4: a court of law because a serial killer aka a
Speaker 4: sociopathic then why and get away with it from one
Speaker 4: of these machines. It seems like it show what was
Speaker 4: your question?
Speaker 7: But the thing is what it continues with that Bill Seacrest,
Speaker 7: regardless of that light detector test, doesn't believe he does.
Speaker 7: He doesn't let Kendall Francois off the hook in terms
Speaker 7: of in his mind a suspect.
Speaker 4: You know, when I looked at this guy when we
Speaker 4: were having that lunch or lunches down at the hawkson River,
Speaker 4: and it was like one of those things where there
Speaker 4: was something inside. You know, there was there was something
Speaker 4: about this guy, and I tried to get that into
Speaker 4: the story. Then he was gonna let this guy, you know,
Speaker 4: get old. He didn't, you know, it wasn't a prove
Speaker 4: small thing, but he didn't like the idea he was
Speaker 4: he you know, Francois was basically thumbing his finger in
Speaker 4: the eye of the cops. And so he just kept
Speaker 4: after him. Even though he passed the the wide detector test.
Speaker 4: Bill had enough, really, it wasn't, you know, he just
Speaker 4: he was humanity, He had enough humanity to say, you
Speaker 4: know what, Okay, he passed the wide detector test.
Speaker 8: He's our guy.
Speaker 4: I'm going after him. I'm gonna keep going. And it
Speaker 4: wasn't a situation where he you know, he didn't he
Speaker 4: didn't violate his constitutional raids or anything like that. You know,
Speaker 4: just kept looking at him. You know, is this the dude?
Speaker 4: You know, it's I don't know, you know, maybe I'm wrong, band,
Speaker 4: but I just don't see that very o that kind
Speaker 4: of dedication to duty, you know what I mean.
Speaker 7: Well, there was he has a personal connection, as you
Speaker 7: talk about in the book. He warns, I mean, it's
Speaker 7: it's a sad story when he warns a girl that
Speaker 7: he knows that he knows it, but you know, again
Speaker 7: you talk about his empathy for these people, because it's
Speaker 7: demonstrated and saying, hey, listen, there's a guy out on
Speaker 7: the street here, you better watch yourself, Cantina, you know,
Speaker 7: what are you doing?
Speaker 9: You know?
Speaker 7: And she ends up being you know, victimized. And so
Speaker 7: he is that kind of person that that understands the
Speaker 7: plight that of these people, and he understands that despite
Speaker 7: the lie detector test, this is a hard boiled cop
Speaker 7: that says, I'm not I just have a gut instinct.
Speaker 7: So again, it's very much like we think something out
Speaker 7: of movies where a cop just says, not in my
Speaker 7: dot something in my gut. What did you just get that?
Speaker 7: In fiction? Really, because that's not what they're really trained for.
Speaker 7: They dismissed the because they have to they have to
Speaker 7: go evidence based. They can't be going on got instincts
Speaker 7: so much. Yet this guy is still doing it. So
Speaker 7: when they do get Francois in a room, despite those
Speaker 7: other cops soft interview, it's still he still has this
Speaker 7: guy as a suspect. And luckily, I guess all that energy,
Speaker 7: all that focus Francois, What does you know? You have
Speaker 7: to tell the audience what Francois does after this little
Speaker 7: interview where he's basically he's waived his Miranda rights so
Speaker 7: he will talk to these guys. They get him to
Speaker 7: write it out, then they get him to tape it,
Speaker 7: so they think the more he talks, the more details,
Speaker 7: he's gonna sink himself. And Bill Secrest really wants to
Speaker 7: get to that house, and that's what you talk about
Speaker 7: the book too. You know, he wants to bring those
Speaker 7: dogs over there, and he's just because he's just certain
Speaker 7: in his own heart that this guy is guilty.
Speaker 4: You know, I'm listening to what you're saying, and I'm going, gee,
Speaker 4: that's exactly what I tried to write, and he, you know,
Speaker 4: did it. Thank you. But you know the thing is,
Speaker 4: I don't well, let me just back up here and
Speaker 4: just say a few things, which is working in giggy.
Speaker 4: I don't think there has ever been a really good
Speaker 4: true crime book, really terrific, and I'm not talking about
Speaker 4: anything I might do. Can that New York State and
Speaker 4: I'll tell you why, Well, no, that's not actually true.
Speaker 10: Is a great book by Peter Moss okay. But the
Speaker 10: difficulty is that when you're working in New York States,
Speaker 10: the there is this.
Speaker 4: Feeling that it's such a liberal place. That's not the case.
Speaker 10: It's it's the direct opposite. In other words, if you
Speaker 10: want to get information, it's incredibly difficult because it's really
Speaker 10: a very conservative place. So you have to keep digging
Speaker 10: and digging and digging to get to really what's going on.
Speaker 10: And in the case of Bill Siegrist, who is the
Speaker 10: detective on the case, uh.
Speaker 9: He he boiled boy, he would not give up even
Speaker 9: when the live detectors was beaten by in other words,
Speaker 9: that the candle frins while office saying I didn't have
Speaker 9: anything to do with any of these women disappearing, and Liftecker.
Speaker 10: Said yet, So he just kept going. And when he
Speaker 10: finally rested after a prostitute breaks free from him and
Speaker 10: purely by coincidence, they have the.
Speaker 4: World block up.
Speaker 10: And then he gives statements the police secrets just wants
Speaker 10: to get into the house, which is what you're talking
Speaker 10: about where you live, and they send dudes in with
Speaker 10: five X suits. You know, it looks like something from
Speaker 10: a science fiction film to find the bodies, or least
Speaker 10: look for the bodies in this dam.
Speaker 7: Yes, okay, that's it. Your signal is really not great, Fred,
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, no, I just I'm surprised. It's just a
Speaker 7: for whatever reason, it's not a great signal right now though.
Speaker 4: I moved.
Speaker 7: There we go, Yes, so, uh sorry about that. I
Speaker 7: just kind of lost the signal here and we'll get
Speaker 7: we'll get back on track here.
Speaker 4: Ye, Dan, Yes, it's it's cooled editing buddy.
Speaker 7: Yes, absolutely, yes, absolutely. So what you were last saying
Speaker 7: was the in the interview when he finally is finished
Speaker 7: with these police officers but then calls the two officers
Speaker 7: back into the room to tell them to confess. Tell
Speaker 7: about what he says and how he says it, and
Speaker 7: why do you think he even said it?
Speaker 4: Oh boy? Why? Well, you know, why does the serial
Speaker 4: killer confess something. I think that there's a certain you know,
Speaker 4: there's certainly a certain amount of ego, isn't it. They
Speaker 4: had him and he knew he wasn't getting out. You
Speaker 4: know that you got to look at that about what
Speaker 4: he has done. And one of the things that we
Speaker 4: find is typical in the case of serial killers is
Speaker 4: they have very low self esteem. Though, so you know,
Speaker 4: one of the reasons they do what they do is
Speaker 4: to attract the mention to themselves. This isn't something that's
Speaker 4: done so that they're going to, you know, go under
Speaker 4: a rock someplace. You do this in order to call
Speaker 4: attention to yourself. Yeah, there's a certain amount of you know,
Speaker 4: the man of Steel involved. They figure they're going to
Speaker 4: get away with it. I just realized something, Dan, I
Speaker 4: gave him plug to a really bad DC comics. Okay,
Speaker 4: forget that. But they think that they're going to get
Speaker 4: away with it, you know, and they're not, but they
Speaker 4: have that ego that makes me think they are.
Speaker 7: He does exhibit a strange personality in though that he
Speaker 7: again he's not okay, so he thinks he's cocky. So
Speaker 7: he says, I'm not going to have a lawyer here,
Speaker 7: so I'll answer some questions. He then and so then
Speaker 7: they don't really push them because they don't ask him
Speaker 7: about the other murders. He knows he's a suspect, but
Speaker 7: they don't really push him. He calls the cops back
Speaker 7: in and says, listen, get a hold of the prosecutor,
Speaker 7: and I want to see some photos from ninety three,
Speaker 7: and they go ninety three. That's incredible because they thought
Speaker 7: maybe start killing in ninety six as far as far
Speaker 7: as the emails, so they're excited. Then he takes four
Speaker 7: photos out of the bunch and it's Wendy Meer's, Gina Baran,
Speaker 7: it is Cathrine Marsh, so it's all the victims, Assandra French.
Speaker 7: So it's all the victims that or at least four
Speaker 7: of the victims that they were missing women. But it's
Speaker 7: odd that he then he doesn't go on to say
Speaker 7: to brag like some of these people, or to really
Speaker 7: revel in the gore in the detail. He is very
Speaker 7: unique in terms of serial killers, let's say, in terms
Speaker 7: of his behavior right then and there. Well, in terms
Speaker 7: of just that behavior, I think, I think the murders
Speaker 7: themselves are not so unique, and that's not so unique,
Speaker 7: but just this that that one point of him. But
Speaker 7: then not going on like some guys wanted to publish
Speaker 7: books and and revel in the details. So and again
Speaker 7: there was no rimpetus. He wasn't a good guy confessing
Speaker 7: or anything. That's not his Christian upbringing came out or anything.
Speaker 7: So I just thought that was very odd and unique.
Speaker 4: That's a really good perspective. I don't know any other
Speaker 4: things any other way to say that, you know, and
Speaker 4: that's a really good perspective of us. Yeah, he he is.
Speaker 4: You know, an anomaly can't go France wise, an anomaly
Speaker 4: is in any ways as far as you know, being
Speaker 4: a perdio kill. You know. One of the things I
Speaker 4: remember that was that really you know, got me, you know,
Speaker 4: going with how the FBI or you know, their their profile.
Speaker 4: Oh god, it's a white dude. You know, everything is
Speaker 4: a white dude, you know, and I couldn't get over it.
Speaker 4: You know, it's like, excuse me, why couldn't an African
Speaker 4: American be a serial killer? Well, they're telling secrets to
Speaker 4: go after a white dude. Sorry, guys, that's not what's
Speaker 4: going on. You know.
Speaker 7: Well, their profile, as you talk about in the book,
Speaker 7: is really profiling has ended up. And you explained in
Speaker 7: the book about unorganized and organized, and that's been reeded
Speaker 7: and we won't get into that because that's a whole
Speaker 7: other book of people's egos and people trying to make
Speaker 7: money where they never made any money before. I think
Speaker 7: it's but this profile especially, it's just so vague and
Speaker 7: so inclusive and includes so many people and really just
Speaker 7: what's secrets And these other officers looked at and said
Speaker 7: it was no value, no value whatsoever in the end.
Speaker 7: In the end, it was a lot of luck. I mean,
Speaker 7: if you're going to put the confession in and Diane
Speaker 7: Franco running away from the gas station again, she wasn't
Speaker 7: going to try to run into the police's arms. And
Speaker 7: you know, they had a couple of close calls. But
Speaker 7: what was again, it's crucial that they find out. And
Speaker 7: I mean it's heartbreaking for the victims' families to find
Speaker 7: out what this you know, stinky did with their with
Speaker 7: their loved ones. You know, he paid for sex. At
Speaker 7: some point he figured it wasn't enough. He was a
Speaker 7: huge man even just to be laying on top of
Speaker 7: these petite women. And then the choking came and he
Speaker 7: was a strong enough man to break their uh, the
Speaker 7: hy eight bone. And so when he heard that he
Speaker 7: was a very efficient killer. You talk about how he
Speaker 7: again with his parents living in the same building and
Speaker 7: neighbors had five bars, He's up in the attic and
Speaker 7: then said, well it's a little crowded, let's start putting
Speaker 7: them in the crawl space.
Speaker 4: You know what when I listened to you say it. Okay,
Speaker 4: you're so you know what, I think you should be
Speaker 4: a You should work for the crown, buddy. You know what,
Speaker 4: because you sell you sound like a prosecutor or a
Speaker 4: defense or or solicit or one of the two. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I can say.
Speaker 7: That, right, sure, sure, Well, I mean I'd love to
Speaker 7: prosecute some of these people.
Speaker 4: Well, you know what, you hit something there when I
Speaker 4: was in the courtroom. Oh my, when Frans Woile was sentenced,
Speaker 4: because it was a deal. Uh and and what happened
Speaker 4: this was pretty damn interesting. New York at the time
Speaker 4: had reinstituted death penalty. It's only about fifteen years ago, right,
Speaker 4: And what happened was I'm sitting here and I still
Speaker 4: can't believe it. I mean, they wrote the the law
Speaker 4: in such a way that serial killing did not qualify
Speaker 4: for death. I am not making this up, folks. Okay,
Speaker 4: this explains why the New York mets have gone since
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty six, and happened on a world series. Now,
Speaker 4: what I'm getting at is that what happens here is
Speaker 4: that the district attorney in Dutchess County, with its clim occurs,
Speaker 4: he's trying to like pull to get this guy death,
Speaker 4: and it's a waste of time because hey man, you
Speaker 4: got the law, you know, you don't like it changing.
Speaker 4: At the end of the day, they make a deal.
Speaker 4: They dif francois life without the role. What that allows
Speaker 4: is a sentence in caring with witness impact statements from
Speaker 4: the families of the victims. I was in the courtroom
Speaker 4: and I have never heard such a sect and testimony
Speaker 4: in my life. I was in tears. Anybody, I think
Speaker 4: anybody would be in tears, you know, and what that
Speaker 4: got would That's what made me realize that for people
Speaker 4: who write through crime books and report on crime, we're
Speaker 4: not doing our job unless we make the individual as
Speaker 4: we would poured on them, into human beings. That is,
Speaker 4: prostitutes are usually looked at by reporters in the same
Speaker 4: way that many cops do, which is a lower order
Speaker 4: of life. And I worked real hard to humanize the
Speaker 4: women who were the victims, and I was very happy
Speaker 4: that I felt that I succeeded. I even went to
Speaker 4: the cemetery of at least one of the victims, you know,
Speaker 4: where she was buried, and you know, you know, I
Speaker 4: don't know I don't know what to say, Dan, I
Speaker 4: just wanted to feel it. You know.
Speaker 7: Well, the thing is that the indictment continues with journalism
Speaker 7: because again there have been case is where certainly the
Speaker 7: killer killed other people that would be I mean, the
Speaker 7: police state it, and they don't state anything they're not
Speaker 7: so certain of why would they? And so a good
Speaker 7: true crime book, an in depth true crime book like yourself,
Speaker 7: where you've gone there. And that's why I'm totally supportive
Speaker 7: of and want to represent and want to present to
Speaker 7: the audience books that are full length, that are in depth.
Speaker 7: If it's five hundred pages to cover a case, then
Speaker 7: it's five hundred page book, it's three hundred, but it's
Speaker 7: certainly not condensed versions or you know, there's a there's
Speaker 7: a place for those things, but there's I think there's
Speaker 7: a thirst for knowledge, and I know this audience has
Speaker 7: given me nothing but indications that the more information the better,
Speaker 7: The more we get to know why the case itself,
Speaker 7: I mean you have to, I mean, it's everybody's interested
Speaker 7: in the killers. Obviously remember the killer's names, that's who
Speaker 7: we remember. But to understand the story, and that's what
Speaker 7: the fans want to know. The the entire story. It's
Speaker 7: all it is. It's just history, and it's just harsh history.
Speaker 7: It's harsh reality. And I'm sure it's certain that when
Speaker 7: parents read about their loved ones in a book, it's
Speaker 7: not the nicest thing. But they're probably not got any
Speaker 7: energy to be reading your book. That's the person who
Speaker 7: probably won't read it, you know, But there are other
Speaker 7: people that want to know this information.
Speaker 4: I can comment on that because over the years I've
Speaker 4: certainly had occasion to talk to on many occasions the
Speaker 4: victims' families, and one of the things that I found
Speaker 4: was common was they would, well, I don't have comments
Speaker 4: right work. A couple of times that said I was
Speaker 4: making money off the dead. And I remember saying to
Speaker 4: somebody on a book that I did, called need to
Speaker 4: work about people. Somebody had gotten killed up in mission
Speaker 4: and this person said that, He said, what you know,
Speaker 4: you're making money of my my sister getting killed. And
Speaker 4: I said, gee, I said, how come you gave an
Speaker 4: interview to the Detroit Free Press and you didn't think
Speaker 4: twice about that? What the heck is the difference? And
Speaker 4: you know, and that's the point, you know, one of
Speaker 4: the things that I've always felt about true crime is
Speaker 4: because we're writing books, it goes I've always said, it
Speaker 4: goes into our you know, Library of Congress. What's the
Speaker 4: what's the equivalent in Canada and Library of Congress? What
Speaker 4: are you with the official library?
Speaker 7: Yeah, I can't tell you. I can't. I can't. Off
Speaker 7: the top of my head, I probably can't tell you.
Speaker 4: Well, what I'm getting at is simply that when you
Speaker 4: doing this stuff, okay, I mean, you know, it goes
Speaker 4: across I obviously goes across international lines, and there's a
Speaker 4: lot of responsibility to get your facts straight because it's
Speaker 4: going to go into you know, it's it's it's certainly
Speaker 4: on the internet all over the place, and so whether
Speaker 4: whether whether it's here or there or whatever, it becomes
Speaker 4: the version that it's kept around, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: And and you know in the Library of Congress simply
Speaker 4: means they're gonna they're gonna shelf a book on it.
Speaker 4: Now in Kendall, France was kids. I have to say
Speaker 4: that the last thing I ever expected, absolutely last thing,
Speaker 4: was the dude is going to die? I mean not,
Speaker 4: you know, in terms of life. I mean, last time
Speaker 4: I looked everybody dies. I'm not sure that doctor strange,
Speaker 4: but that's another story. But I did not think this
Speaker 4: guy was going to die so and he died, oh
Speaker 4: my god, less than a year ago, in his early forties.
Speaker 4: And I did not find any Oh boy, I didn't.
Speaker 4: You know, it didn't make much sense. You know, I
Speaker 4: didn't read the autopsy report. I don't even know if
Speaker 4: they did one, but you know, it was apparent they
Speaker 4: said natural causes early forties. I don't know what else
Speaker 4: to say. Yeah, well, the thing I mean, look, we're
Speaker 4: not okay, I'm.
Speaker 7: Sorry, No, Well, I mean it's it's some people would
Speaker 7: like to see him live out his whole life in
Speaker 7: this eight by ten. Some people would have liked to
Speaker 7: see something else. Oh but again we're talking about an investigation.
Speaker 7: And finally, luckily, I mean, yeah, I only know so
Speaker 7: many more victims if this victim didn't get away. I mean,
Speaker 7: this this guy had certainly to you know, the capacity
Speaker 7: and the need and the want to be able to
Speaker 7: do this. Maybe not with every single prostitute, but you know,
Speaker 7: his his killing seemed to be accelerating.
Speaker 4: And uh, oh, you just made a good point. And
Speaker 4: I didn't make the point. You just said that these
Speaker 4: killings were accelerating, and.
Speaker 7: Well you could see that from your book, you could
Speaker 7: you could derive that. Obviously, every one of these victims,
Speaker 7: it seemed already knew him, so it had numerous encounters
Speaker 7: with him, and then they get to the encounter where
Speaker 7: you know, it's not working out.
Speaker 4: So I'll remember, if you know, I got to tell
Speaker 4: you something again, it isn't Jerry Ors. You know that
Speaker 4: you wind up living quote enough, we're one day you say, oh,
Speaker 4: you know, I you know, and okase I you know,
Speaker 4: I owned I owned a house and I actually had
Speaker 4: a wawn and I said, oh, you know what instead
Speaker 4: of mowing one, I'm going to go down to Pipsie
Speaker 4: and check out candle friends. So I get in the car,
Speaker 4: you know, and I go down there. And now you
Speaker 4: know he's already in jail and everything. But I just said,
Speaker 4: you know, I just wanted to go over to the house.
Speaker 4: Oh man, you know, I guess what you're thinking, You know,
Speaker 4: this part of you that's thinking, oh my god, there
Speaker 4: should be some uh, you know, a big hand and
Speaker 4: you know, finger in the sky pointing here or something,
Speaker 4: even though you know better than that, and you know what, well,
Speaker 4: it was was just a house in a very nice
Speaker 4: neighborhood in that area. It was a it was a
Speaker 4: detached house, a single family. Oh man. It was two
Speaker 4: stories plus the attic and a corol based underneath, which
Speaker 4: of course Kendall employed. And it had been boarded up
Speaker 4: because of what had happened. And you know what happened.
Speaker 4: Somebody came in and they bought the house at a
Speaker 4: song who re did the whole place, you know, in
Speaker 4: the inside, and sold her to profit, you know, talk
Speaker 4: about you know, uh, you know the system working. I
Speaker 4: thought that was hilarious. You know, I just couldn't get
Speaker 4: over that. You know, one of the things I learned
Speaker 4: at some point in one of writing books is that
Speaker 4: you know that prime is that you know, blood gets
Speaker 4: on the walls, you don't get it off with anything.
Speaker 4: It's see said, you know you know what I mean, right,
Speaker 4: And I mean that's like spooky to me. And but
Speaker 4: you know, didn't make any difference here. You know, they
Speaker 4: were able to sell the house. And by that time,
Speaker 4: of course, well the forensics were done and he was
Speaker 4: in prison and you know he wasn't getting out or
Speaker 4: anything like that.
Speaker 7: You know, that was going going to have but we're
Speaker 7: talking about some very decomposed bodies in the house, and
Speaker 7: that's what you say, the archaeologists have to come in
Speaker 7: and eight eight similar looking, well similar small women down
Speaker 7: on their block. One was bound to be was just
Speaker 7: set to be a grandmother. Really sad story when you
Speaker 7: talk about her name was Kramer, her last name was Kramer.
Speaker 7: But her mother was going to be a grandmother and
Speaker 7: she was killed and then a couple days later her
Speaker 7: daughter had what would have been her grandchild, her first grandchild.
Speaker 7: The other one where secret warns the young girl Knita,
Speaker 7: you know, there's a guy on the street, and then
Speaker 7: she's missing. They you know, you talk about because there
Speaker 7: was people that survived and based on the confession, so
Speaker 7: your book takes us right into how what did he
Speaker 7: do well? He got in, stink, he got in. Everybody
Speaker 7: knew he had a hygiene problem. They didn't want to
Speaker 7: do tricks at a person's house. They want to make
Speaker 7: their money. And then when you talk money, I'm glad
Speaker 7: you put the sum in there just to let people
Speaker 7: know that this sex trade work is twenty dollars. Twenty dollars.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, you're not talking, you know, you know you
Speaker 4: can adjust it for inflation. It doesn't make any difference.
Speaker 4: You're not going to come up with a lot of money.
Speaker 4: I mean, these people are just surviving. And you know
Speaker 4: the again talking about it, and I think about it.
Speaker 4: I guess what always bothered me was, you know, I
Speaker 4: went to Yeah, I went to one of the victims
Speaker 4: lived in a town in the let's see, the eastern
Speaker 4: part of the county. So like, I don't know how
Speaker 4: to drive, I don't know eighty miles whatever, you know,
Speaker 4: I drove out there and you know, you know, you
Speaker 4: know you can you can figure it out. Guys. You know,
Speaker 4: eighty miles whichever way you want from your house is
Speaker 4: still you know, a drive. Yeah, I'll never forget that.
Speaker 4: And I looked up and I don't remember which one
Speaker 4: it was, but the thing is to me, when was
Speaker 4: the same as another? I found the victims picture in
Speaker 4: the local high school yearbook and I made a copy
Speaker 4: so that I could have it. And I thought to myself,
Speaker 4: how the hack somebody gets from over here to eighty
Speaker 4: miles over there and on the street showing their body,
Speaker 4: you know, And there's a lot of reasons, you know
Speaker 4: that was you know, that's another book I think you know,
Speaker 4: but you know this, But what was very clear was
Speaker 4: that Francois was a smart predator vantage of people. And
Speaker 4: when and when I say took advantage, I don't mean
Speaker 4: just the six for money that goes on every day,
Speaker 4: and we're not talking about it, right at least in
Speaker 4: this kind of tree. I'm talking about murder. It's because
Speaker 4: of the fact that the of how these women are
Speaker 4: looked at, that they were able to disappear on a
Speaker 4: regular basis for two years before the police tip to
Speaker 4: what was happening, let alone the local press, which I
Speaker 4: don't have any excuse for quite frankly, because they were
Speaker 4: disappearing on a regular basis, they knew what was going down,
Speaker 4: you know. And you know, this is the kind of situation, Dan,
Speaker 4: where if you're you're a local press and you know
Speaker 4: that this is happening, you report on it and eventually
Speaker 4: it leads to the guy's capture, which is what happened.
Speaker 4: You would to pull a surprise. That's not what happened
Speaker 4: here because they didn't report on her to last In fact, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: am I going to get struggle again?
Speaker 7: In no, no.
Speaker 4: No, that's it.
Speaker 7: It's the same story with the media where I am
Speaker 7: in Canada. It's not a it's not any different, I mean,
Speaker 7: but you know, it's a reflection of society too. It's
Speaker 7: a reflection of society. I mean, certainly, the victims are vocal,
Speaker 7: the families are vocal. But at the same time, when
Speaker 7: you know, the sad reality is because a lot of
Speaker 7: people say, yeah, but you jumped your loved one jumped
Speaker 7: in a car with a stranger, and and.
Speaker 4: Some of the police say the same thing, like, my god, what.
Speaker 7: Am I supposed to do? How can I protect you
Speaker 7: if you won't protect yourself, and so you can you know,
Speaker 7: I never thought of.
Speaker 4: It that way. I never thought of it that way.
Speaker 4: Oh my god. So that's what they're thinking.
Speaker 7: Huh, Well, that's what it is. I mean. But when
Speaker 7: they when you see a cop taking his job home,
Speaker 7: and these homicide guys do in terms of there's a
Speaker 7: killer loose and that's their job. They're on a task
Speaker 7: force to do this. I mean, it's professional, it's personal,
Speaker 7: if there really is anything, that's both. And yet at
Speaker 7: the same time, people are still conducting themselves the same
Speaker 7: way in the same area, knowing that the predator's there
Speaker 7: because of their as you explained in the book, their
Speaker 7: addiction overwhelms them. They have to do, they have to
Speaker 7: do what they have, what they're going to do. There's disgusting, dangerous,
Speaker 7: you know. They know it's dangerous to go to a
Speaker 7: person a John's home rather than a car. They don't
Speaker 7: have any backup system. They don't have a person protecting them.
Speaker 7: The police. Then when they try to find clues when
Speaker 7: the person's missing and the family comes in and says,
Speaker 7: my prostitute daughter is missing again, they don't make judgment.
Speaker 7: But then then you know, the families, rightfully or wrongfully,
Speaker 7: say hey, you guys aren't doing enough. It was a
Speaker 7: middle class woman, you know. So that's what you talk
Speaker 7: about in your book. You say, listen, the cop is
Speaker 7: in between a rock and a hard place.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then their.
Speaker 7: Only victory, their only victory is to see this guy
Speaker 7: put into prison.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 7: But it's you know, it's a thankless job. But thanks
Speaker 7: to books like this, audience like this that appreciates those stories.
Speaker 7: There's you know, you don't have any law enforcement to
Speaker 7: understand these human stories. That's what I think love people
Speaker 7: love about you have to analyze it. It's it's this
Speaker 7: all encompassing human story. It's a sad, tragic story, but
Speaker 7: there are still people, even though it's a futile that
Speaker 7: are still trying to do the right thing. And part
Speaker 7: of it is writing about the right thing. The people
Speaker 7: that were heroes in this, if there is such a thing,
Speaker 7: Bill Secrest, another person named Menamee, Bob McCready, who else? Yes,
Speaker 7: you know these.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm interrupting you when you're saying nice things.
Speaker 7: Excuse me, No, no, no, no, I'm saying that, you
Speaker 7: know I I I just read this book fresh, so
Speaker 7: it is so fresh in my mind, and it's affecting
Speaker 7: me as these books do. These books affect the person
Speaker 7: read obviously, and they move on to the next one
Speaker 7: and get affected again.
Speaker 4: You know, Dan, I just remember, I just realized who
Speaker 4: you remind me of?
Speaker 7: You?
Speaker 4: Ready?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Sure, Dick Cabot. Pardon me, do you know Dick Kavitt? Oh?
Speaker 7: Yes, of course, talk show.
Speaker 4: You remind me of Dick Cabot. He was the most
Speaker 4: intelligent talk show host ever on television.
Speaker 7: Well, there you go. Wow, that's thanks for the compliments.
Speaker 7: I don't know about.
Speaker 4: Anytime, but I'm thinking, because you're really getting into some
Speaker 4: very interesting stuff. You know when you talk about you know, motivation,
Speaker 4: you talk about who somebody is as a person. That's
Speaker 4: the challenge when you're writing true crime. And you know,
Speaker 4: the funny thing is who am I talking to recently
Speaker 4: about this? I was talking to somebody about in Cold Blood?
Speaker 4: And they would talk they were saying some stuff that
Speaker 4: that was negative about the way Capodi did it, and
Speaker 4: what the what? What the What it really comes down
Speaker 4: to is when you're writing true crime, there's a point
Speaker 4: where Okay, you got this fact, that fact or whatever,
Speaker 4: but you're using the techniques of narrative fiction to tell
Speaker 4: your story, and so there's a there is a tendency
Speaker 4: to go a little bit too strong, that is, to
Speaker 4: fictionalize something without really having a backup to it. You
Speaker 4: see what I'm saying, and it can just a little
Speaker 4: bit here and a little bit there. And so it
Speaker 4: really is an area where the more you can keep
Speaker 4: your perspective, like a police a good cop would a
Speaker 4: good police officer, a good attorney on either side, prosecutor
Speaker 4: or defend that you're going to get a better story.
Speaker 4: You're going to get a more accurate story. And it
Speaker 4: won't you know, it may not, it's not going to
Speaker 4: be as emotional, but you'll get it down a little
Speaker 4: bit better, you.
Speaker 9: Know what I mean.
Speaker 4: Sure, Yeah, And it's tough, a real tough one, because
Speaker 4: I get affected by this as much as anybody else,
Speaker 4: you know, Like that got me, you know, and going
Speaker 4: to the grave of somebody who's been killed by a
Speaker 4: serial killer, looking at the person's gravestone, thinking about the person.
Speaker 4: I never met the person, but I you know, you know,
Speaker 4: doesn't make any difference, and I you know, you start realizing,
Speaker 4: you know, the tragedy of this, and then multiply it
Speaker 4: by eight plus however many more this guy killed, which
Speaker 4: we certainly suspect he did.
Speaker 7: Was he eager to talk to the media after he
Speaker 7: was sentenced. Was there any any any possibility of having
Speaker 7: a serious interview with him.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 4: What happened was though, what happened was he kept his
Speaker 4: mouth shut, you know, mostly into is you know, your
Speaker 4: attorney's going to tell you to keep your mouth shut,
Speaker 4: because he got life. And at some point somebody from
Speaker 4: the city of Poughkeepsie, a woman, started corresponding with him,
Speaker 4: and this person wound up doing a correspondence over a
Speaker 4: couple of years. I don't know how many maybe was
Speaker 4: ten whatever, and uh, you know, he didn't reveal anything.
Speaker 4: You know, there was nothing significant about any of this,
Speaker 4: and that was it. And then, you know, I think
Speaker 4: I can't exist. I remember that. I don't remember the
Speaker 4: exact you know, he died. He died a year less
Speaker 4: than a year ago. I think he was forty four.
Speaker 4: And it was from quote unquote natural causes. You got
Speaker 4: to wonder.
Speaker 7: What was he like at trial?
Speaker 4: Fred Oh boy, I just remembered what he was like
Speaker 4: at trial. Damn, Oh my god. I'll tell you exactly
Speaker 4: what he was like. I was standing behind him. I'm sorry,
Speaker 4: I was sitting behind him, you know, you know, I
Speaker 4: was in the you know front. I was in the
Speaker 4: prosecution side, was on the right side of court. The
Speaker 4: defendants was on the left side of the court. No,
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I got it wrong. The defendant was on
Speaker 4: the right, the prosecution was on the left. I was
Speaker 4: sitting very close to Transflis is a film called Tom Hanks.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure what's the film. In the prison saw
Speaker 4: Green Mile, the thank you, the the guy that played
Speaker 4: the party he passed away to, uh, the the killer
Speaker 4: that's he was African American. In any case, that's exactly.
Speaker 4: In other words, Francois was huge. I've never seen a
Speaker 4: bigger human being in person except for Wilt Chamberlain, who
Speaker 4: was the center for the for the U for Philadelphia
Speaker 4: and this guy. But Will was then. This guy was
Speaker 4: freating huge. I mean, you know, he was sixteen four
Speaker 4: in each direction. Yeah, and the and the and the
Speaker 4: forget the thing about uh, the odor well was coming off.
Speaker 4: This guy was danger of fear. I'm not I'm not
Speaker 4: reading into it. I'm just telling you that God's honest truth. Okay,
Speaker 4: this was not somebody you wanted to meet the dark alley.
Speaker 4: This guy was giving off the most I've been I
Speaker 4: guess I've been in a couple of courtrooms with killers,
Speaker 4: and you know, with serial killers too, and this guy,
Speaker 4: forget about it. This guy was you know this guy,
Speaker 4: Oh my god, it was bad. It was really bad.
Speaker 4: When I heard the oldest stories that the the survivor's
Speaker 4: relatives said, you know, it's victim inconnect them. I don't
Speaker 4: ever want to go through that again, Dan, you know
Speaker 4: what I mean. It was just it's just too hard.
Speaker 4: I understand. I begin to understand why it is that
Speaker 4: season detectives get to the point where they can't do
Speaker 4: this anymore. You know, you get to a point where
Speaker 4: you know you can't push it behind you and the
Speaker 4: professional you hear too much of this stuff.
Speaker 7: What was the media response? I mean, you talk about
Speaker 7: in the book where there was a smaller paper put
Speaker 7: out an article early on about missing women and nothing, nothing,
Speaker 7: No other media picked it up. They they couldn't care
Speaker 7: less and the public was not outraged, and they didn't.
Speaker 7: It didn't resonate with that either. Then later there was
Speaker 7: some an article about the missing children, missing women, and
Speaker 7: the serial killer on the loose. After this was all
Speaker 7: said and done, the confessional, the sort of details, how
Speaker 7: did the local state media treat it and how far
Speaker 7: did it go? And how big a story did it become?
Speaker 7: I know the answer was.
Speaker 9: Wow.
Speaker 4: Well, the answer is it didn't become a big story.
Speaker 4: It's by any means. Yeah, it's now that you know,
Speaker 4: now that we're talking about it. You know, I was there,
Speaker 4: I mean I was there. I mean I experienced the
Speaker 4: local media, et cetera. And the answer is, yeah, it
Speaker 4: got picked up by the national media for five minutes,
Speaker 4: but the local media no, by no means that they
Speaker 4: except for this one small local paper which I talked
Speaker 4: about in the book going to a bit, which was good.
Speaker 4: You know, there was another newspaper there, and I'm not
Speaker 4: going to mention it. You know that I was sitting
Speaker 4: on top of quite a case and they knew about
Speaker 4: it and they didn't do anything about it. And I
Speaker 4: you know, look, I don't know where to go with
Speaker 4: that except to say that, you know, you know, even
Speaker 4: the dailies, the low et cetera. And you're talking about
Speaker 4: an area of maybe you know, let's say you went
Speaker 4: in a how about a thirty five mile radius, right,
Speaker 4: you know, let's say thirty five miles, you might have
Speaker 4: at the core of a million people. You know, I'm
Speaker 4: not sure exactly, but nobody really reported on it, you know,
Speaker 4: on a consistent basis, even when they knew what the
Speaker 4: heck was going down until until you know, in other words,
Speaker 4: people knew what was going down that day, that there
Speaker 4: was a serial castle, there was a test was fine,
Speaker 4: a serial killer. But despite that, there was really no coverage.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, you think about that, that's like ridiculous,
Speaker 4: you know, well, I mean, you.
Speaker 7: Know, you know, it's it's testament too. But because you know,
Speaker 7: serial killers till just recently when spree killers have sort
Speaker 7: of replaced them as in vogue. And and you know
Speaker 7: this the emphasis in the media because they are huge stories,
Speaker 7: not to say that they're not, but the serial killer
Speaker 7: has lost his luster a little bit in real life.
Speaker 7: Maybe not actual you know, but that's good. But the
Speaker 7: thing is is that you get a guy like this,
Speaker 7: this Francois, and he's not even on the serial killer radar. Really,
Speaker 7: you know, he's I mean, he didn't have enough, I
Speaker 7: mean eight bodies. He's very serious. I mean, other stories
Speaker 7: have been called house of Horrors with a similar body count,
Speaker 7: will say, and the similar circumstances of bodies in garbage
Speaker 7: bags in a house. So you know, I I always
Speaker 7: am astounded by how the local media is shies away
Speaker 7: from these local stories. Again, unless it's a you know,
Speaker 7: a schoolgirl that comes from a really good family. I
Speaker 7: think they're dead wrong in thinking that the audience, the
Speaker 7: meaning the reader won't be interested in that. I think
Speaker 7: they've been wrong for years and years, and I think
Speaker 7: they're more and more wrong. They sound very in terms
Speaker 7: of critical of certain members of society, where I think
Speaker 7: society has grown up and doesn't care if you're gay
Speaker 7: or transgender. I mean, you can imagine five or ten
Speaker 7: years ago, I transgendered person was murdered. I mean the
Speaker 7: emphasis or lack of emphasis, or what they might say
Speaker 7: in a newspaper. You know. I think the society is
Speaker 7: they're out of touch, and I think they're acting, like again,
Speaker 7: like elites. I mean, when you have prosecutors and you
Speaker 7: have police, and you have rescue teams, and you have
Speaker 7: citizens that are interested in the stories and victims and
Speaker 7: victims families, I think we're more empathetic than the media takes.
Speaker 7: I mean, I just think they're wrong. And I think
Speaker 7: that's why they're failing anyway, is because they're right off
Speaker 7: the mark.
Speaker 4: I couldn't Wow, I could never be that eloquent. And
Speaker 4: I agree totally with what you're saying. That's the eloquence.
Speaker 7: It's just I'm outraged because they don't. I just don't
Speaker 7: think they share the same the same feelings as society.
Speaker 7: And I said that, I think they're making they're doing
Speaker 7: a disservice, and journalism is supposed to provide a service.
Speaker 7: They're not supposed to pick and choose stories. Which country is,
Speaker 7: you know, more to bomb or or less important to Balm.
Speaker 7: I mean, this is not the case or some people
Speaker 7: are less notable. I mean they might have their agendas,
Speaker 7: they might have their biases, but again that's why they're failing,
Speaker 7: because there's no connection with regular people and what they feel.
Speaker 7: I mean, you're still seeing hooker dad. Why is one
Speaker 7: segment of society that I don't think should be considered
Speaker 7: low life when you have all the low life in
Speaker 7: high positions. Why somehow they have to put the word hooker.
Speaker 7: Why they have to basically humiliate the family when they're
Speaker 7: a victim. And I mean even our credible Canadian judicial
Speaker 7: system does lip service to victims and their feelings. At
Speaker 7: least in America, they're they're contacting and saying, geez, is
Speaker 7: this deal okay with you?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 4: But you know what? That's you know what again? What?
Speaker 4: But to see? Now you get into situations where there's
Speaker 4: been an extensive amount of investigative journalism in the United
Speaker 4: States surprisingly about uh sexual abuse, specifically rape of women
Speaker 4: on American college campuses, and the statistics they're showing are astonishing.
Speaker 4: Yet it's no discussion except in a situation like this
Speaker 4: where somebody like you is interested, and that is one
Speaker 4: in four of co eds are going to be rate
Speaker 4: twenty five percent. Okay, yeah, I pulled what do we
Speaker 4: call that? I pulled out an epidemic? What's the government
Speaker 4: doing about it? You know what I mean? I mean,
Speaker 4: it's it's it's a very very very interesting situation. And
Speaker 4: what we get into is that it comes down to dollars.
Speaker 8: And cents people us a lot of times in these
Speaker 8: campus situations. It's athletes playing for big budgeted n Cuba
Speaker 8: teams that are raping women. Okay, it's a fact.
Speaker 4: So what does that say, you know, I mean, you
Speaker 4: know what it does? Is it the values women and
Speaker 4: the value you know, and and I you know, we
Speaker 4: can go on and on, but you.
Speaker 7: Know, I would The thing is, though I would say
Speaker 7: that I understand your point, but I think I want
Speaker 7: to say that I think the root of the issue
Speaker 7: still has to It can't be the government isn't doing
Speaker 7: anything because the government doesn't do anything anyway in this regard.
Speaker 7: A can't It's it's just an institution. It's an institution
Speaker 7: can enact certain things. But if society becomes a rape culture,
Speaker 7: has a sort of a rape culture mentality, I mean,
Speaker 7: rape is what's disturbing to me is when I see
Speaker 7: a pedophile with again I call them a pedophile possession
Speaker 7: of child pornography. And then the person's well, not there,
Speaker 7: they're not a pedophile, they haven't committed an offense. And
Speaker 7: then the next thing I see many times is oh,
Speaker 7: now there, now someone's come forward and talks about you know, assault,
Speaker 7: sexual assault and rape. So then those charges are there.
Speaker 7: There is an incredible connection again not a distinct correlation,
Speaker 7: but a disturbing connection between the capacity to rape and
Speaker 7: the capacity to kill. And once was a rapist is
Speaker 7: now a killer. And this story illustrates it as well,
Speaker 7: once was a sex and dehumanized people and then then
Speaker 7: became a killer. I mean, to me, it's incredible that
Speaker 7: sex and sex actual excitement somehow get all mixed up
Speaker 7: in murder, and that's where you get your sexual say
Speaker 7: this your sexual serial killer. So when I see rape
Speaker 7: on the rise all over the entire world and this
Speaker 7: kind of bizarre war rape murder, that's the again, a
Speaker 7: more even more disturbing question. So rape is incredibly disturbing,
Speaker 7: and not because I can see that many times oftentimes,
Speaker 7: and it's a disturbing trend anyway, regardless, anywhere, under any circumstances.
Speaker 7: So yeah, but it's even more disturbing to being yeah.
Speaker 9: Boy.
Speaker 7: But my point, I think I think I lost on
Speaker 7: this one thing that I wanted to say though, was
Speaker 7: it starts off not in that athletes are more prone
Speaker 7: to rape or people with money are more prone to rape.
Speaker 7: What it is is that the people with money, the
Speaker 7: people with position, the people that maybe want to have
Speaker 7: a vested interest in having this guy have a scholarship
Speaker 7: and go on to to professional basketball or professional sports,
Speaker 7: they have the best lawyer. So again, some true crime
Speaker 7: authors say, well, you know, you just don't understand. They're
Speaker 7: just doing their job. I keep going back to that point.
Speaker 7: If it's right there, it's the lawyer does not take
Speaker 7: the poor black kid with no money and go all
Speaker 7: the way to the Supreme Court on you know, for free.
Speaker 7: He doesn't do it. But what he will do for
Speaker 7: a heinous criminal with money, everything is everything. He'll put
Speaker 7: his arm around him, he'll be friends with him, and
Speaker 7: then and he's still a respected lawyer. I'm not naive
Speaker 7: as to what a lawyer's duties are, but I don't
Speaker 7: some people make me sound like I'm naive as to
Speaker 7: their job. Their job is to be you know, it's
Speaker 7: it's starts with them and ends with them. It's three
Speaker 7: lawyers in the room. It's a prosecutor, it's a judge
Speaker 7: as a lawyer, and there's a lawyer. And that's the
Speaker 7: root of the problem. That's the root of the problem
Speaker 7: in justice in America, in Canada and everywhere. They take fish.
Speaker 7: It's like a net. It's like a net in the
Speaker 7: ocean of dummies and losers and people uneducated, and they
Speaker 7: throw those in jail as like a business. They do
Speaker 7: it here too. It's not the mafia is not in prison.
Speaker 7: The most serious criminals are not in prison. So what
Speaker 7: are we doing with prison? Nothing. We're not doing anything
Speaker 7: if we're not.
Speaker 4: I mean, that's a whole of the ball game. What
Speaker 4: are we doing with prison? You know, it's nothing. I
Speaker 4: will never ever forget watching Nightline with Cheded Copple. I
Speaker 4: don't remember what year was, but remember that show and
Speaker 4: Ted Copple went into a he was a hell of
Speaker 4: a good journalist. Sure he went he went into a prison.
Speaker 4: He went into a prison with his with his crew
Speaker 4: ABC TV in Texas and they went into this prison
Speaker 4: with his I don't I think the guy was convicted
Speaker 4: of a sexual crime. Oh my god, this is incredible.
Speaker 4: And what they what Ted reported on, was that they
Speaker 4: kept the lights on outside the cell twenty four to seven,
Speaker 4: so that within three years the big guy went schizoprenic.
Speaker 4: And I yes, and I came away from this and
Speaker 4: maybe I'm off by a year, but you know, but basically,
Speaker 4: but that's what happened. And I remember thinking, this is
Speaker 4: proof that life imprisonment is worse than death. Look at
Speaker 4: what they're doing. Now. I'm not justifying it. I'm not
Speaker 4: saying it's constitutional. I'm not saying this. I'm not saying that.
Speaker 4: I just found it interesting that what they were doing,
Speaker 4: they were operating within the law. You see what I'm saying. Sure,
Speaker 4: and they did, you know, and and and you know,
Speaker 4: and they weren't you know now in that particular case.
Speaker 4: Now again it's Texas, which you know, it's you know, uh,
Speaker 4: you know Kyle's reporting this had to be in the
Speaker 4: nineties because well, you know, I actually was in the
Speaker 4: town of Stark was it start helped me out of here? Buddy.
Speaker 4: It's sam Houston State University that's gonna Stark Caps can
Speaker 4: help you're there. I was at sam Houston State University
Speaker 4: in Texas. I don't recall the name of the town,
Speaker 4: but it was where they execute everybody, right, there's been
Speaker 4: hundreds of executions. I got to tell you something, and
Speaker 4: I'm not I mean, I was totally sober. I wasn't stoned,
Speaker 4: I wasn't this. I wasn't that, you know. But I
Speaker 4: remember the vibe was really bad, you know. And I
Speaker 4: wasn't there when they were executing somebody. You know, I've
Speaker 4: never I've never been in that situation. I thought about it,
Speaker 4: I thought about applying to see it and so forth,
Speaker 4: but I just unless i have to for some reason,
Speaker 4: I don't feel I'm going to do it, you know, no, no,
Speaker 4: But but it was very interesting to be in the
Speaker 4: place where again I was at a conference. It was
Speaker 4: an academic conference, and uh, you know, and and it
Speaker 4: was you know, it was in between executions. It was
Speaker 4: a weird Dan, I'm just telling you, man, it was
Speaker 4: just a weird one. You know. I've never been in
Speaker 4: that situation, you know, I mean, you know, it's very odd,
Speaker 4: you know when you think about what I'm saying. I mean,
Speaker 4: you know, this is a place where the executor, hundreds
Speaker 4: of people. The vibes are not going to be good.
Speaker 7: You know, no, I would think, no.
Speaker 4: No, you know what, I think I better call on
Speaker 4: Captain America. I need some backup anyway, What Seeve Roger's
Speaker 4: doing these days? Do you know?
Speaker 7: I don't know? Well, Fred, I want to thank you
Speaker 7: for coming on and talking about this. I know we
Speaker 7: tend to go off as we as we do, and
Speaker 7: I hope the audience doesn't chastise us for it, but
Speaker 7: some people actually enjoy us going off on a tangent
Speaker 7: a little bit and just talking a little bit freely.
Speaker 7: Maybe in getting it leaving we even got into a
Speaker 7: little bit touch of politics, and I know that's a taboo,
Speaker 7: but you know, sometimes we have strong feelings and instead
Speaker 7: of just sticking to the scripts sometimes. But I wanted
Speaker 7: to thank you for coming on and talking about body Dump.
Speaker 7: For those that have listened, they'll wanted to go further
Speaker 7: investigate this incredible story. You take us right into this
Speaker 7: very very sad and tragic story, just you know, just
Speaker 7: a great story where the police finally do get a break,
Speaker 7: catch a couple breaks, and thank god, the killer himself
Speaker 7: decided weirdly enough to confess, otherwise we wouldn't know the incredible,
Speaker 7: horrible story. But you've captured everything. You've got me going
Speaker 7: when I read this book is just again at the
Speaker 7: vent for half an hour about the system. It's just
Speaker 7: an outrageous, incredible story about a fascinating killer and the
Speaker 7: sad tale of all their victims. I want to thank
Speaker 7: you very much Fred coming on and talking about Body Dump.
Speaker 7: It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 4: Dan, Thank you very much. Hope to be back, and
Speaker 4: you know, your humanity is what I really appreciate. Thank
Speaker 4: you very much.
Speaker 7: Well, really, Fred, you've done it because you bring to
Speaker 7: life these cases and you're a champion of the truth,
Speaker 7: and that's really all anybody really needs, and that's what
Speaker 7: people are looking for in nonfiction. We're not looking for fictionalization,
Speaker 7: conversations that never occurred. We're looking for the stuff where
Speaker 7: you pounded the pavement, you talk to the girls on
Speaker 7: the street, the women who ended up being victims or
Speaker 7: could have been victims. You got every bit skintilla of
Speaker 7: information and a fascinating tale that after you read this
Speaker 7: you just you're dying to look up another Fred Rosen
Speaker 7: true crime classic for sure, So thank you very much. Fred,
Speaker 7: you have a great evening and good night.
Speaker 4: Good good night, Dan, take care of yourself.
Speaker 7: Audios to you too, thank you, good night.