WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.080 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.199 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:21.559 written about them Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 4 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:34.640 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 7 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:44.759 Good Evening. Mike and Denise Williams had a tight knit, 8 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:50.119 seemingly unbreakable bond with childhood friends Brian and Kathy Winchester. 9 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:55.679 The two couples were devout, hard working Baptists who lived perfect, 10 00:00:55.840 --> 00:01:03.000 quintessentially Southern lives. Their friendship seem ironclad. That is until 11 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:07.879 December sixteenth, two thousand, when Denise's husband, Mike, disappeared while 12 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:14.519 duck hunting on Lake Seminole. After nobody was found, everyone 13 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:17.920 assumed that Mike had drowned in a tragic accident, his 14 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:23.159 body eaten by alligators. But things took an unexpected turn 15 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:29.159 when within five years of Mike's disappearance, Brian Winchester divorced 16 00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:35.359 his wife and married Denise. Their surprising romance set tongues talking. 17 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:39.120 People began wondering how long they had been a couple 18 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:42.480 and whether they had anything to do with Mike's death. 19 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:46.799 It took another twelve years for the truth to come out, 20 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:52.079 and when it did, it was unimaginable. Now the full 21 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:57.040 shocking story is revealed by Makita Brotman, acclaimed true crime 22 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:02.879 writer of the enthralling and unax Blain Death. Through tenacious 23 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:07.799 research and clear eyed prose, she probes the psychology of 24 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:11.719 a couple who killed and explores how it feels to 25 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:17.319 live for eighteen years with murder on the soul. The 26 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:22.360 book they're featuring this evening is Guilty Creatures, Sex, God 27 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:28.879 and Murder in Tallahassee, Florida, with my special guest writer, psychoanalyst, 28 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:34.039 and professor of literature, Makita Brotman. Thank you very much 29 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:38.719 for this interview and welcome back to the program. Makda Broughtman, Hi, 30 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:41.599 thank you for having me. Thank you so much, and 31 00:02:41.639 --> 00:02:44.719 congratulations on this book, Guilty Creatures. 32 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:48.080 Thanks very much. I'm very pleased with it. 33 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:52.840 Yes, you take us to set the stage for when 34 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:57.479 the story occurs. The locale is Tallahassee, Florida. You say, 35 00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:01.639 population about two hundred thousand, a city of great beauty. 36 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:06.520 But where the trailer parks outnumber the gated communities. You 37 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:10.719 take us to nineteen eighty eight North Florida Christian High 38 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:16.560 School yearbook, and you introduce quarterback Jerry Michael Williams or 39 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:20.759 Mike as he goes by. You also introduce his girlfriend 40 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:24.080 at that time. Denise Merrill, tell us, as you do 41 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:27.960 in this act one, as you call it, introduce the 42 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:30.800 characters integral to this story. 43 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:35.840 Well, the setting, as you said, is in Tallahassee, Florida, 44 00:03:35.919 --> 00:03:38.560 and that I begin the book by talking a little 45 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:42.280 bit about Tallahassee, and the story is set in this 46 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:47.599 sort of intensely religious Baptist community. But my interest in 47 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:51.680 Florida and the story in particular isn't just necessarily just Tallahassee. 48 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:54.479 I mean a lot of early writers who are writing 49 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:58.639 about Florida testified that there's something about the heat and 50 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:04.080 the lassitude that encourages moral laxity and sinful behavior in Florida. 51 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:07.240 So I think that comes into the case a lot, 52 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:09.800 because there's a lot of reference to swamps and lakes there, 53 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:13.439 and a lot of strange cases take place in Florida 54 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.800 for a lot of reasons. So the beginning of the story, 55 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:20.759 I just introduced the location in Tallahassee, which also has 56 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:23.360 an interesting history. Like you said, it's a very very 57 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:25.759 beautiful place, but it also used to be the center 58 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:28.680 of the slave trade and had a sort of a 59 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:31.480 bad reputation for crime and so on. So the story 60 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:35.720 begins with two couples, Mike and Denise Williams and Kathy 61 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:39.000 and Brian Winchester. They were all born and raised in 62 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:42.920 very strict Baptist families, and they'd known each other forever. 63 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:46.480 They went to middle school together and high school together, 64 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:49.800 and as they grow up and leave school, the two 65 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:53.360 couples marry. They stay very close friends, and they settle 66 00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:59.759 down to raise families together. But then one day, Mike, 67 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:04.920 Denise's husband disappears during a session where he's out duck 68 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:08.399 hunting with Brian because they're both really big hunters, and 69 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:13.040 his body never surfaces, and everyone assumes that he's drowned 70 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:15.040 because his wade is filled up with water and it 71 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.600 was a really terrible there was a terrible storm that 72 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:21.439 night too. It's a Christmas the Christmas season, very in winter, 73 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:25.639 very very bad weather, especially for Florida. So his body 74 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:29.720 never surfaces and everyone assumes that he's been eaten by alligators, 75 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:36.399 and his death really sort of tears the community apart. Eventually, 76 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:42.720 Brian and Kathy divorced, and Mike's mother, Cheryl, who's a 77 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:48.000 very devoted mother, is compelled to find out what happened 78 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:51.279 to Mike because she simply doesn't believe that he's vanished. 79 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:55.040 She believes that he's still alive. She's had messages from God. 80 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:58.240 She believes that something nefarious or and a hand took place, 81 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:01.759 and she believes that Brian and Denise, who eventually marry, 82 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:08.519 are somehow responsible for Mike's disappearance, if not his death. 83 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:13.040 And others in the community too don't believe that Mike drowned. 84 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:18.879 And I should also add that Brian was from a 85 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:23.240 wealthier family than the other the other three, and he 86 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:26.480 worked in an insurance business. His father was an insurance salesman, 87 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:31.040 and it happened that Brian sold Denise a couple of 88 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:35.680 insurance policies on Mike's life, including a rather large policy, 89 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:41.600 and eventually she received over a million dollars. So again 90 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:45.759 that sort of encouraged suspicion in the community, and the 91 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:50.439 suspicion one was directed particularly towards Brian and Denise, and 92 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:54.680 eventually Cheryl went to the police, and the police got 93 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:59.160 involved and eventually opened an investigation. So that's the first 94 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:00.720 act of the of the story. 95 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:05.079 Well, let's go back to how this all occurred. You'd 96 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:09.120 take us back to early on when this couple was 97 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.560 They married at the same time, these two couples in 98 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:16.560 nineteen ninety four. They were raised in the strict Baptist 99 00:07:16.759 --> 00:07:20.319 church and they all attended church and took it very 100 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:26.040 very seriously. But as you write, things changed over time. 101 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:31.600 So tell us take us back to Mike his upbringing 102 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:36.000 and how things changed for Mike and the rest of 103 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:38.000 those people in the two couples. 104 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:42.759 Well, again, as you mentioned there from a very strict, 105 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:46.079 very intil a Baptist community had been together for a 106 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:50.600 very long time, and we're very conservative spiritually and just 107 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:53.639 emotionally speaking, that he just hadn't had very much experience. 108 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:57.639 They didn't drink, they didn't smoke, they didn't have sex 109 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:02.079 before marriage. They followed all the biblical injunction. But as 110 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.720 after they married, things started to change and they radically 111 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:09.040 sort of broke free from the church. They started to 112 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:13.800 experiment sexually, They started to drink, they started to do drugs. 113 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:16.600 Just like most people do in their teenage years, this 114 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:21.439 forsome waited until they were in their twenties because they realized, 115 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:24.439 particularly Brian and Denise, that they were kind of dissatisfied 116 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:26.480 with the way things are. They'd been going to church, 117 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:28.639 they've been praying, They've been brought up to believe that 118 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:33.639 they would be rewarded, you know, sexual pleasure after they married, 119 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:36.639 and they were kind of disappointed that things didn't turn 120 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:40.399 out as they had expected them to be. And after 121 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:47.200 these sexual experiments, Brian and Denise started to have an affair. Kathy, 122 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:51.120 Brian's wife, was more conservative and more sort of home loving, 123 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:54.960 and at first she The foursome, but particularly Brian and 124 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:58.879 Denise were very interested in sexual experiments, going to the strippers, 125 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:03.159 having threesomes, and at first Cathy joined in. Mike was 126 00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:06.600 less interested. Mike was very, very hard working, he was 127 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:12.120 a real estate appraiser. He wasn't really interested in you know, drinking, smoking. 128 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:14.159 He needed to guess up and get to work in 129 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:16.840 the morning, so he was kind of out of this 130 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:21.240 these hijinks. But eventually, like I said, Brian and Denise 131 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:25.159 started to have an affair, and it was at this 132 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:30.000 time that they started to consider how they could different 133 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:35.039 ways in which they could be together. And I don't 134 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:36.919 know if you want me to say more at. 135 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:41.159 This point, let's go back to the idea of divorce. 136 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:45.639 Like many people would say, why not divorce exactly? 137 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:49.279 I mean, that's that's what's so interesting to me about 138 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:53.159 the story and so kind of confusing. Why so Brian 139 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:59.559 and Denise start to consider the possibility of murdering Mike. 140 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:06.440 And of course anyone would would say, why not just 141 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:11.000 get divorced? I mean, murdering someone is absurd. And yet 142 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.639 because of their strict upbringing, because of the Baptist community, 143 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:17.759 because of the social pressure, and both Brian and Denise 144 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:20.919 had children at this point. Denise didn't want to lose 145 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:23.399 custody of her child. Neither of them wanted to go 146 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.919 through the social stigma or the financial loss of the divorce, 147 00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:30.559 and so they gradually began to talk about ways that 148 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:35.360 they might be together. And eventually they had this plan 149 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.279 where Brian and Mike were be duck hunters. So Brian 150 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:42.639 and Might would go duck hunting. Brian would push Mike 151 00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:45.559 out of the boat. But they didn't see it as 152 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:49.799 a murder. They saw it as an accident and a test, 153 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:53.360 a test of God's will, they believed, and they wanted 154 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:56.639 to believe that God wanted them to be together, and 155 00:10:57.159 --> 00:11:01.200 so they decided to test this. If my survived, then 156 00:11:01.240 --> 00:11:05.000 it was a miracle from God, and God wanted Denise 157 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:08.080 to stay with Mike. But if Mike died, that was 158 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:11.480 God telling them that they wanted to be together. So 159 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:15.399 this is a way that they kind of go through 160 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:19.600 These go through this murder, and yet they're at the 161 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.879 same time, they're committed Baptists. So what interested me so 162 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.039 much is how they justify it, especially when so many 163 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:30.279 people in the community didn't believe that Mike might drown. 164 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:35.159 And I'm interested in how much the social pressures reinforced 165 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:38.360 Brian and Denisa's lives, sort of bringing them together at 166 00:11:38.360 --> 00:11:43.320 one point and then driving them apart. And I explore 167 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:47.399 their psychology and in particular the ways that they defended 168 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:50.600 themselves against guilts through the years. They had this astonishing 169 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:56.559 range of psychological manipulations and maneuverings and justifications and denials, 170 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:02.519 and their relationship to each other sort of changed over time. 171 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:06.159 First they were united and then they were driven apart. 172 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:11.480 So so yeah, I mean, one might simply say it's 173 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.440 easy to get divorced, how could you possibly contemplate murder? 174 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:18.440 And said, but when you have unbearable pressure on you, 175 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:23.960 your mind the strange and incomprehensible things. And that's what happened. 176 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:26.120 And that's what I'm really kind of interested in getting 177 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:26.919 at in the book. 178 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:31.519 Let's get to the insurance policies, which are an important 179 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:36.559 part of this story. Brian was an insurance salesman and 180 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:39.720 saw two of the three policies. But tell us about 181 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:44.399 this one policy that was about to collapse and regarding 182 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:46.919 the new policy for a million dollars. 183 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:51.559 Yes, So, like I said, Brian was an insurance salesman, 184 00:12:51.639 --> 00:12:57.320 and Denise and Mike had three insurance policies. Well, initially 185 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:01.080 they had two. I can't remember the l where they 186 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:05.559 were from, but one of them was about to lapse 187 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:10.600 and it was paid quarterly, and Brian and sorry, Denise 188 00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:12.639 and Mike decided to let that one lapse and take 189 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:16.480 out a new policy, which Brian sold them for a 190 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.120 million dollars. So they had this one policy I think 191 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.080 it was from I can't remember what they had, and 192 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:25.840 they had a second policy that they were going to 193 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:30.720 planning to that lapse. However, Denise was a CPA and 194 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:33.399 she was the one in their household who was in 195 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:36.639 charge of the accounts. And what happened was when they 196 00:13:36.759 --> 00:13:40.639 bought the third policy and were planning to let the 197 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:46.080 second one lapse, Denise continued to pay the quarterly installments 198 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:48.840 on the second policy, so unbeknownst to Mike, there were 199 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:55.360 actually three policies on his life. And after he disappeared 200 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:59.559 and was presumed dead, Denise Mike sorry, Brian's father was 201 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:03.080 in insurance agent two and knew very much lost about finances, 202 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:09.120 and he assisted Denise in getting Mike declared dead in 203 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:11.559 it rub the swift way, I mean, things like that 204 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.720 normally take a long time, apparently, and so Denise was 205 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:21.440 able to claim all the insurance money, which was I 206 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:24.840 think it was certainly a million dollars, and again that 207 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:28.159 certainly led to wagging tongues in the community. 208 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:34.000 Let's get back to this plan to heal Mike. Denise 209 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:39.279 and Brian. They have this deadline because of this lapsed policy, 210 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.519 but also that duck hunting season is going to end 211 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:45.840 and it's getting laid in the season period, and so 212 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:48.320 they have to do something. They have to put this 213 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:54.159 plan into motion and their sixth anniversary, Mike and Denise's 214 00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:59.440 wedding anniversary is coming up. So tell us what happens 215 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:04.639 in terms of the idea about the alligator. A fortunate 216 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:09.879 accident happens for with Mike and Brian that gives Brian 217 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:14.480 this idea, and before we talk about how they say 218 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:19.519 we have to do something, it's now or never, right. 219 00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:21.559 So there's you know, they've been talking about this for 220 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:25.080 a while. They've decided on that they're going to try 221 00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:29.039 and somehow get rid of mine, but they're not actually 222 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:31.240 sure when to do it. So a number of things 223 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:33.600 are sort of coming to a head. One is that 224 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:39.440 the next insurance policy is due and that fall, oh 225 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:43.960 that winter, and Denise isn't sure if she gets away 226 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:45.919 with it by paying it again, that Mike's bound to 227 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:48.639 see something wrong. He's going to look at the finances, 228 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:51.960 the bank records and notice that she's paid it again. Secondly, 229 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:55.039 duck hunting season's coming to an end and they'll be 230 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:58.720 thinking about a duck hunting accident. And what happens to 231 00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:03.679 kind of solidify plan is that Mike and Brian go 232 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:08.240 on a trip. Mike, Mike and Brian go hunting together, 233 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:12.200 go dick hunting together, and what happens is Mike falls 234 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:16.240 into what seems to be an alligator hole and he's 235 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.840 about to drown, and the very last minute, he puts 236 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:22.600 out his hand and drops his gun and Brian takes 237 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:25.360 his hand and pulls him out and he Brian tells 238 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:28.159 this to Denise when they get back, and they start 239 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.080 to think to themselves, well, you know, if Brian hadn't 240 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:33.480 been there to save him, Mike would simply have disappeared 241 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:35.159 and nobody would ever know what happened to him. They 242 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:38.080 would have simply assumed that he'd been drowned and eaten 243 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:43.000 by alligators. And that's what puts the spur into their 244 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:45.000 heads that this is this would be a great way 245 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:47.120 to die if we can get him, if we can 246 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:50.000 get it to appear as if he's drowned, everyone will 247 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:52.919 simply assumed his body's been eaten by alligators, and that 248 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:57.399 would be the perfect excuse for his absence in the community. 249 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:01.519 And so there is a moment where they make the 250 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:06.000 plan and then Mike is called by Brian to set 251 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:11.480 up duck hunting at Lake Seminole. What happens so Mike. 252 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:13.680 And Brian often go duck hunting very very early in 253 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:19.000 the morning at Lake Seminole, So this particular morning, the 254 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:22.200 morning of them that the murder has planned to take place, 255 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:25.000 Brian calls Mike late at night and invites him to 256 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:30.359 go duck hunting. Mike agrees. Mike gets up very early 257 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:32.960 the next morning, meets Brian and they drive out to 258 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:37.039 Lake Seminole. It's very early in the morning. They Brian 259 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.079 switches off his cell phone and says that it's not 260 00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:41.400 working because he wants to create an alibi to cover 261 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.599 his tracks. They get to Lake Seminole, they go out 262 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:51.559 in the boat. They find a place that's rather deep 263 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:55.640 where Brian believes that it will be possible to enact 264 00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:59.960 this grizzly deed. He pushes Mike out of the boat. However, 265 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.680 instead of Mike drowning as he assumes what happened, Mike 266 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.599 does not drown. His waders don't fill with water. He 267 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:11.319 manages to take off his waders. He starts swimming. There 268 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.319 are lots of cypress stumps growing out of the lake. There. 269 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.279 He manages to get hold of a cypress stump and 270 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:22.079 starts screaming. Absolutely nothing has gone the way that Brian 271 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:26.240 has planned this. What he saw is a very simple 272 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:28.119 act of pushing someone out of the boat has now 273 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:34.480 become this terrible, horrifying situation. And he later tells the 274 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:38.880 police that he had no other option, which is ridiculous. 275 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.160 But he has his duck hunting rifle in his boat. 276 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:46.119 He circles Mike a few times and then shoots him 277 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:50.960 in their head. And this is absolutely nothing that the 278 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.200 couple had considered at all. They thought it was a 279 00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.359 very simple accident. What Brian has to do next is 280 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.240 to actually get rid of the body, and you know, 281 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:03.200 he's not prepared for this at all. He'd actually arranged 282 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:05.480 to meet his father in law later that morning to 283 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:08.440 go duck hangingting, so it's set up an alibi. He 284 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.880 has to somehow get around that. So he manages to 285 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:15.039 get Mike's body out of the lake, drag it up 286 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:19.000 onto the shoreline, bring his car around, all Mike's body 287 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:24.359 into the trunk of his car, drive into town. He 288 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:27.680 has to go to Walmart to get a spade and 289 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:31.799 tarps and weights. He has to go home to wash 290 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:35.480 the car, He has to find somewhere to bury the body, 291 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:38.839 and he has to do all this without being seen 292 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:43.119 by anybody, and then his in laws are having a 293 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:45.599 party in Georgia and he has to drive all the 294 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:48.640 way to Georgia arrive at the party as though nothing's happened. 295 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.680 So I saved this experience to the end of the book. 296 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:54.400 I tell this at the end of the book. But 297 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:57.279 this is actually what happened on the lake. It was 298 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:01.200 absolutely nothing like what Brian imagined it would be. It 299 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:06.880 was this kind of horrendous, horrendous experience and absolutely horrifying 300 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:08.440 wife of Mike to die. 301 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:13.440 That Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now, 302 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:18.200 you do leave this for his testimony at trial, where 303 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:23.000 he reveals everything that happened. But let's go back to 304 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:28.559 what happens right after this. After he does manage to 305 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:32.720 go to Cairo and catches up with his wife and 306 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:37.319 daughter at his in laws, he also calls his in 307 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:40.200 law back, his father in law back, and explains gives 308 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:43.759 him an excuse why he said he overslept, and he 309 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:47.119 said he lost the keys to the boat that he 310 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:52.440 had borrowed, so he somehow manages it. No one seems 311 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.480 to notice him out of character at all at this 312 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:02.960 family gathering and what happens after in terms of the 313 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:07.119 search for Mike Williams. 314 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:11.720 Yeah, Bizarrely enough, Brian manages somehow to go through with 315 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:16.240 this this family reunion. He returns home to Tallahassee with 316 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:21.519 his wife and son the next Later that night, there 317 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:24.160 are you know, Mike hasn't come home. And Mike and 318 00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:26.480 Denise were supposed to be going to it was their 319 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.759 sixth wedding anniversary. They had booked a kind of romantic 320 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:36.640 getaway in a hotel, and so when Mike hasn't come 321 00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:40.799 back from from duck hunting that morning, Denise starts to 322 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:45.000 get kind of frantic, and she calls her sister and 323 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:47.119 tells her that Mike hasn't come home. And there have 324 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.359 been other occasions where Mike and Brian have gone out 325 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:52.519 duck hunting and they've they've got stuck in an island, 326 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:54.799 or they've just you know, lost track of time. So 327 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.559 at first everyone thinks it's just something like that. But eventually, 328 00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:00.599 when the hurricane comes in and things get very stormy, 329 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:03.720 Denise asks her father if she'll go out, he'll go 330 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:05.759 out to the lake and look for Mike. The father 331 00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:08.039 goes out to the lake. He gets the help of 332 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:12.880 some forestry staff to help search the waters, and eventually 333 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:16.799 a full scale search takes place, involving many members of 334 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:20.720 the community, including Brian and his father, including the police. 335 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:27.920 There's satellite operations, there's all kinds of police dogs searching 336 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:33.319 the premises, and that search goes on and on over 337 00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:36.440 the next actually until February. It continues going on. People 338 00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:39.559 are always going out to the lake looking for Mike's body, 339 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:44.079 and there's a huge search and rescue operation. All kinds 340 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:48.359 of equipment is used, eventually helicopters, and there's no sign 341 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.079 of Mike's body, and people do comment that there are 342 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:54.599 an awful lot of large alligators around. In fact, Lake 343 00:22:54.599 --> 00:23:00.279 Seminole is apparently known for its sizeable alligators. But eventuallyually 344 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:04.400 Mike's cap is found, his hunting cap, and then much 345 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:09.319 later on his waders and his torch and his gun 346 00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:14.079 belt are found, and so it's decided pretty clearly that 347 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:17.960 Mike has drowned. It's surprising that his body isn't there, 348 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:23.079 but everyone assumes that when when things warm up, his 349 00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:25.599 body will rise to the surface, and when that doesn't happen, 350 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:30.440 people assume that he's been eaten by alligators, and so 351 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.640 he's met this kind of grizzly fate. Although there are 352 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:36.839 people in the community who's simply you know that it's 353 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:39.880 known that alligators don't eat in the winter, and there's 354 00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:42.400 a lot of confusion, but do they eat in the winter? 355 00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:46.920 Is that just North florigator allegators of South Flora alligators 356 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:50.839 and do they hibernate And everyone's you know, wondering about 357 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.200 whether this is possible because it seems very unlikely for 358 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:56.319 alligators to in the winter to have eaten someone without 359 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:01.480 any evidence of their body surfacing. So it is kind 360 00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:05.039 of perplexing, but it goes you know, because the body 361 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:08.720 never surfaces, things sort of are left to lie. And 362 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:12.200 so Mike has declared dead, but there is this always 363 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:14.880 this undercurrent of suspicion in the community, especially on the 364 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:16.119 part of Mike's mother Cheryl. 365 00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:21.720 Let's talk about Mike's mother and what her beliefs are 366 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:25.400 about her son, who was very experienced in her mind 367 00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:30.920 died hunting, and also the uh she keeps a journal. 368 00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:35.279 She's very very serious about this, and also tell us 369 00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:39.279 about her campaign that she undertakes to be able to 370 00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:40.400 find her son. 371 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:44.799 Yeah, Mike's mother, Cheryl is absolutely the heroine of the story. 372 00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:47.839 I mean she she spends the rest of her life basically, 373 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:50.559 she leaves no stone unturned in trying to find her son. 374 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:56.000 So she knows that Mike is a trained hunter. She 375 00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:59.240 you know, she made sure that he had lessons. Family 376 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:02.799 friends gave him lessons, He practiced with his waiters. He 377 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:06.240 knew exactly how to remove his ways in the water, 378 00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:10.839 how to surface. He was very security conscious, and so 379 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.720 Cheryl knew that she found it very unlikely to believe 380 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:18.720 that Mike had died duck hunting. Cheryl was also a 381 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:22.279 very religious person, even though her religion was less sort 382 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:25.920 of traditional than others in the community. So Cheryl a 383 00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:28.559 few days after his son went missing, she went out 384 00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:31.640 to Lake Seminole and she had what she believed was 385 00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:34.400 a revelation from God, and God told her that Mike 386 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:38.440 did not drown in the lake. And after that again 387 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:42.519 she devoted herself completely to this campaign of finding out 388 00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:45.119 what happened to Mike. When everyone else in the community 389 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:50.480 he'd accepted his death. Cheryl was constantly putting at missing posters, 390 00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:56.000 talking to people, trying to get the police involved, interviewing 391 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:58.920 people in the community. She kept a journal like you said, 392 00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:04.720 She often had dreams and read tips in newspapers, and 393 00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:08.240 very seriously kept track of everything that she thought might 394 00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:11.079 give her a clue as to what happened to her 395 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:13.319 son and how to find him. And like I said, 396 00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:15.960 at this stage, she still believed he was alive. She 397 00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:21.640 believed that he might have had a shock, lost his memory, 398 00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.359 be wandering somewhere not knowing who he was, and so 399 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:30.240 she kept track of all clues and signs that she'd 400 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.480 witnessed in her dreams and things that she'd heard people 401 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.000