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That's Chumbu Casino dot Com and 23 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:01.640 Live the Chamberlaine over. 24 00:01:01.479 --> 00:01:04.120 Dos Near Dedhere Everyboy Lost in the Terms Conditions eighteen. 25 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:07.079 Plus Loop Tradian. 26 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:19.599 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 27 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:22.719 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 28 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:30.079 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every 29 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:33.799 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:38.079 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 31 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:41.359 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 32 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:55.200 Good Evening. Tom and Jackie Hawkes love their life in 33 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:59.480 retirement sailing on their yacht, The Well Deserved, But when 34 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:02.280 the birth of a new grandson called them back to Arizona, 35 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:05.840 they put the boat up for sale. Skylar DeLeon and 36 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:09.879 his pregnant wife Jennifer showed up as prospective buyers with 37 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:12.719 their baby and a stroller, and the Hawkses thought they 38 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:17.879 had a deal. Soon after a sea trial and alleged purchase, however, 39 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:21.560 the older couple disappeared and the Delyons promptly tried to 40 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:26.680 access the Hawks's bank accounts. As police investigated the case, 41 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:29.960 they not only found a third homicide victim with ties 42 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:34.800 to Skyler, they also uncovered an unexpected and unusual motive 43 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:40.319 Skyler had wanted gender reassignment surgery for years. By killing 44 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:43.599 the Hawkses with a motley crew of assailants and plundering 45 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:47.560 the couple's assets, the deleons had planned to clear their 46 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:50.759 one hundred thousand dollars in debts and still have money 47 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:55.520 for the surgery, which Skyler had already scheduled. Now, in 48 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:59.159 this up to the minute updated edition, which includes extensive 49 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:02.919 new material, New York Times best selling author Caitlin Rother 50 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:07.960 presents the latest breaking developments in the case. Scholar, who 51 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:10.680 was ultimately sentenced to death row for the three murders, 52 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:14.560 transitioned to a woman via hormones while living in the 53 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:18.719 psych unit at San Quentin Prison. Recently, she legally changed 54 00:03:18.759 --> 00:03:22.680 her name and gendered a female, apparently a strategic step 55 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:27.080 in her quest to obtain taxpayer subsidized gender confirmation surgery 56 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:32.199 and transfer to a woman's prison. Combined with Governor Gavin 57 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:37.120 Newsom's recent moratorium on executions, this only adds insult to 58 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:40.319 injury for the victim's families, who wants Skylar to receive 59 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:44.319 the ultimate punishment for her crimes. The book of her 60 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:49.560 featuring This evening is Dead Reckoning extensively revised an updated 61 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:53.840 edition with my special guest, journalist and author Caitlin Rother. 62 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:05.439 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 63 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:12.159 a Greenness interview. Kaitlin Rotherhi, good evening, Thank you very 64 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:16.480 much for joining us to talk about this newly updated 65 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:18.439 and revised version of Dead Reckoning. 66 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:22.800 AH, happy to be here now. 67 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:29.040 Caitlin, tell us what this revision and update includes. We're 68 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:32.079 not going to go back into for people are very 69 00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:35.519 familiar with this story from a past interview about Dead Reckoning, 70 00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:39.879 So let's concentrate on the revised and updated version of 71 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:42.839 this and what news do you have brought to this 72 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:48.680 incredible story you talked about you had been in touch 73 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:53.399 with Skuyler and watched her appearance in Psychological State Evolve. 74 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:58.720 Tell us about the interviews that you did before he 75 00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:05.000 was sentenced and then this quest to interview him again 76 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:07.560 after he was on death row in San Quentin. 77 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:11.240 Okay, Just in case there's anybody who doesn't know about 78 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:12.639 this case, I'm just going to give just a few 79 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:15.439 sentences just so people understand what the basic cases and 80 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.759 that is Tom and Jackie Hawks, who were retirees from 81 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:23.959 originally from Prescott, Arizona, bought a boat called the Well Deserved. 82 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:27.040 They sailed around Mexico for a couple of years. One 83 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:31.399 of the Tom's sons had a grand baby had a 84 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:36.040 baby obviously that was Tom's grandbaby, and they wanted to 85 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:39.560 come back to Arizona to be with their grandson. So 86 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:43.639 Tom put the boat up for sale. He advertised it 87 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:47.519 with a broker and also without a broker because he 88 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:51.600 was trying to save himself commission. And Skylar de Leone, 89 00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:56.480 who at the time was presenting as a man. And 90 00:05:56.519 --> 00:05:58.279 this is why this is a tricky story to kind 91 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:00.519 of talk about back and forth in time because Skuyler. 92 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:04.079 It's one of the reasons for the update is Skyler 93 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:08.079 has now legally changed her name and gender to female, 94 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:11.720 but at the time of the murder, Skyler was presenting 95 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:14.480 as a man. But the motive for the murder was 96 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:19.639 to get money for gender confirmation surgery. So it's kind 97 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:21.759 of a I just wanted to give kind of some update. 98 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:26.519 But anyway, Skyler brings Jennifer, his wife, who's pregnant with 99 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:30.800 their second child, with their ten month old daughter, out 100 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:32.839 to the boat to meet Tom. And Jackie to gain 101 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:37.240 their trust. And then Skyler comes back another few times, 102 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:41.000 once with a nineteen year old guy he met in 103 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:43.759 jail who was actually one of the guards there who 104 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:46.879 he made friends with. And then he brought also an older, 105 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:53.079 bigger guy, muscular, muscle guy named John F. Kennedy, and 106 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:56.519 he was what we call a shot callar in the 107 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:03.680 gang culture from the Long Beach insane crips. So he 108 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:08.319 supposedly had turned his life over and was about to 109 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:12.000 become a minister. Meets Skyler and within twenty minutes has 110 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:14.920 already agreed to go onto this boat and help Skyler 111 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:19.480 commit these murders. So yeah, that's, you know, a hypocritical story. 112 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:22.959 I also though, think that Skyler probably didn't may not 113 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:25.240 have told him exactly what they were going to be doing, 114 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:27.879 but did promise him, you know, like a million dollars. 115 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:30.680 These people are rich, they've got this yacht. So anyway, 116 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:35.399 Skyler and Alonzo mc chain who is the young former 117 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:39.680 jail guard, and this guy who I'll call JFK three 118 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.800 of them come on there. They overtake Tom and Jackie 119 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:47.399 with tasers and handcuffs and force them to sign power 120 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:51.959 of attorney documents. And promise that they'll, you know, save 121 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:54.079 their lives as long as they sign these documents. But 122 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:57.480 then instead they take them back on the deck. They're blindfolded, 123 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:04.399 they're gagged, and Tom tries to fight back and Skylard 124 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:08.279 just laughs, laughs it off. They basically tape them together 125 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:13.040 with Jackie's back to Tom's chest tape, put the tape 126 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:16.000 around them, and then tie them to the anchor, throw 127 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:19.959 the anchor overboard, and they are basically pulled down to 128 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.680 the depths of the ocean and drowned alive. So this 129 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:27.240 is this horrible, horrible murder. And in the course of 130 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:31.920 investigating this murder, detectives also find that Skyler killed another 131 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:35.039 guy who he also met in jail, who was in 132 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:39.679 for counterfeiting, and he was a drug addict named John Jarviy. 133 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:42.720 He took him down to Mexico with some other ploy 134 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:45.919 took fifty thousand dollars from him and said, I apparently 135 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:48.240 that they were going to go buy drugs and probably 136 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.000 make a bunch of money, and instead Skyler cut his 137 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:52.960 throat and left him to die at the side of 138 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:56.000 a road in Mexico and was actually in jail at 139 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:58.159 the time, went back to jail because he was supposed 140 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:01.759 to be out on work furlough, signed in with Alonzo 141 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:05.720 mcchain still in charge at the jail, and got there 142 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.360 two hours late, but nobody said anything, and proceeded to 143 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.039 use the jail computer to buy an anal sex machine 144 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.559 that evening with his credit card. So this is this 145 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:22.440 is just a quick quicks and hopes of the murder. Anyway, 146 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:25.600 So here we are, all these years later. The detective, 147 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:28.720 the lead detective on the case, David Byington, told me 148 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:32.639 that as far as he was concerned, the primary motivation 149 00:09:32.799 --> 00:09:35.480 for this murder was, you know, Skyler and Jennifer one 150 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:39.000 hundred thousand dollars in debt. But more importantly for Skyler, 151 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.480 Scaler wanted a sex change operation, which is what they 152 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:43.279 called it back then and now they call it a 153 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:48.879 gender confirmation surgery. But in court, the prosecutor chose to 154 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:54.440 just go with a greed motive because my opinion as 155 00:09:54.480 --> 00:10:00.600 that's just an easier, less complicated argument to make for 156 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:03.279 for a jury in what was at that time more 157 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:06.039 conservative kind of a county law enforcement kind of county. 158 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:12.639 So all these years later, anyway, Skyler Jennifer was convicted 159 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:18.039 for life without the possibility of parole. Skyler tried to 160 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.639 cut off his penis in jail and they wouldn't give 161 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.840 him hormones, so he was trying to transition in jail, 162 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:32.480 wasn't allowed, got to death row at San Quentin and 163 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:36.840 that's where he went. Finally got hormones and transitioned to 164 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:42.519 a female and now done it legally. So to answer 165 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:45.080 your question, when I went to go visit Skyler in 166 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.600 the county jail, Skyler was still presenting as a man. 167 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:51.519 So it's if I go back and forth between he 168 00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:53.919 and sheets, because it's kind of hard to keep it 169 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:59.279 straight sometimes. But from a journalistic standpoint and out of 170 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:04.519 respect to the LGBTQ community, you know, especially now that 171 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:08.759 Skyler is a woman, you know, you're supposed to refer 172 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:11.679 to someone who wants to be a woman to as 173 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:14.679 a sheep. So it's complicated, and I'm not trying to 174 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:16.759 offend anybody, because there are other people, a whole other 175 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.759 group of people who feel that inmates don't deserve any 176 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:23.759 rights at all, and especially someone like Skyler who actually 177 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:28.679 committed murder to gain a gender reassignment surgery should not 178 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:32.320 be given the respect to be given the female pronoun. 179 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:34.519 So this is the this is the balance I have 180 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:38.519 to walk when I do these interviews. And it's a 181 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:41.320 long preface, but I just wanted to make all that clear. 182 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:44.399 So to ask me what you'd like to know about 183 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:47.559 the first set of interviews. 184 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:51.200 When you went and first interviewed him, you you talked 185 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:55.480 about how he was presenting, and you can tell us 186 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:57.440 about that or looking. 187 00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:01.320 Like a man, but the whole, the whole inner for interviews, 188 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.200 and most of what we talked about was how Skyler 189 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:08.519 did not want his penis her penis attached, because it 190 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:15.200 didn't feel like it belonged there. So clearly Skyler wanted 191 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:17.720 to look like a woman and felt like a woman 192 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:20.440 inside and said that repeatedly. 193 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:27.360 To me when you went to San Quentin, Well, in 194 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:30.519 those interviews, what did you try to get? What kind 195 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:32.559 of information did you try to get from him? What 196 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:35.799 did he want to concentrate on in terms of information? 197 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:38.399 Well, here's and I have to make another preface here. 198 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:42.039 I'm allowed to talk about what we talked about at 199 00:12:42.039 --> 00:12:44.960 the Santa Anna jail. But when I even though Skyler 200 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:47.960 invited me to come and visit her at San Quentin 201 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:50.440 and I interviewed her for two and a half hours. 202 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:54.360 I got a nasty threatening letter from her attorney saying, 203 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:58.080 You're not allowed to use anything that Skyler said to 204 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:02.840 you at San Quentin because Skyler is not mentally competent 205 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:05.519 to consent to give an interview, which is part of 206 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:08.519 the story, honestly. So it's an important part of the story. 207 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:11.240 And I can talk about the legal aspects of this, 208 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:13.799 and I can talk about what I saw, I can 209 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:17.519 talk about my observations, but I can't I'm not legally 210 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:21.399 allowed to discuss what she said to me, which is 211 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:23.399 a little frustrating, But to be honest, a lot of 212 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:26.000 it was stuff that she already said to me when 213 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.559 we were sitting in the county jail, and I was 214 00:13:28.600 --> 00:13:34.639 able to reproduce, you know, the entire scene because I 215 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:37.799 got a lot of the same information from third parties. 216 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:41.639 So I had sources at sam Quentin. You we're correctional 217 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:44.919 officers who actually were in the psych unit with Skuyler, 218 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:49.600 and could you know, basically, you know, reconfirm some of 219 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:51.720 the many of the things that she told me. So 220 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:53.159 I just want to make that clear that I am 221 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:57.080 not violating any kind of legal barriers here, that I 222 00:13:57.120 --> 00:14:01.480 am doing this, you know, working around that. But the 223 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:06.000 fact of the matter is that Schuyler wanted to look 224 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:08.440 and felt like a woman inside, and that the penis 225 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:10.919 was not. She didn't even want to say the word penis. 226 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:14.399 That that was how distasteful it was to her, Like 227 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:15.519 she would not use that word. 228 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:21.320 And you asked her about sorry, go ahead, you asked 229 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:25.639 her about about her psychiatric diagnosis by doctors and also 230 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:30.000 the medication that she was on. So tell me about 231 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:30.679 the county jail. 232 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:33.120 And I also did that when I was at San Quentin, 233 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:34.960 but again in San Quentin, I'm not allowed to tell 234 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:36.759 you what she told me, so it's a little tricky. 235 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:39.639 But what was already in the in the first edition 236 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:45.120 of the book pretty much still stands. But Skyler, you know, 237 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:49.240 Skyler is a liar. So some of what she said 238 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:54.080 checked out, and some of it, you know, didn't, for example, 239 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:55.879 and I don't have the book in front of me 240 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.440 for all the specific diagnoses. But you know, severe gender dysphoria, 241 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:03.360 that that is the diagnosis for people who are born 242 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:07.039 one gender and feel differently on the inside than they 243 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:12.200 look physically on the outside. So that's that matches. There 244 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:14.679 were a number of do you have those in front 245 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:16.519 of you usually do? I know, you're really good at this. 246 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:23.159 I don't have them all memorized, but anyway, she go ahead. 247 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:24.039 Go ahead, go ahead. 248 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:28.120 I honestly I didn't review all those right before I called, 249 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:31.480 but I'm just doing them for memory. She's something about 250 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:36.120 I know she had epilepsy when she was growing up. Yes, 251 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:43.399 And I asked her something about, you know, sociopathy and 252 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:45.240 and and she said, oh, I asked them about that, 253 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:47.879 and they said, that's not true. Well, that's that's a 254 00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:53.159 generic term for somebody who doesn't, you know, doesn't seem 255 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:54.919 to know the difference between right and wrong, or if 256 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.120 they do, they sure they you know, ignore it and 257 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:02.960 and do it anyway. But to me, me Skyler always 258 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:08.120 seemed as though she just basically wanted to know whatever 259 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:11.399 I wanted her to say. So and I know this 260 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:14.519 is pretty much how she must have operated with everybody else. 261 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:17.759 And that is and that's pretty similar with with con 262 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:21.240 men and con women. They're very manipulative. They try to 263 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:24.519 read whoever they're talking to to tell them whatever they 264 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:26.679 want to hear. And you know, I think you and 265 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:29.399 I talked about that with Charles manson the book that 266 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:32.000 I did. They came out last year hunting Charles Manson, 267 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:36.519 same thing. That's what That's what these people do. They 268 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:39.240 lock onto you, they look dear in your eyes, and 269 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:43.000 they test out. They say things and they test test 270 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:45.840 you out and see what what you respond to. And 271 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:50.799 I could see Skyler doing that with me, where I 272 00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:54.120 would try to ask her a question and she looked 273 00:16:54.120 --> 00:16:55.720 at me to try to see what I wanted her 274 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.559 to say, and try to tell me what I wanted 275 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:00.000 to hear, which is not what I want to hear. 276 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:02.360 I want to hear the truth, right, but with somebody 277 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.440 like this, it's very difficult. So the most truthful thing, honestly, 278 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:09.599 that we could talk about was her gender dysphoria. But 279 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:13.759 I could tell you from my observations at San Quentin, 280 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:20.720 she seemed happy. She seemed relaxed. She was on medication 281 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:24.240 that she had not been on previously. She seemed more 282 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:29.119 rational and more lucid, and frankly, just happier in her 283 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:32.559 own skin than she she ever had all the times 284 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:35.200 I'd seen her in court, the four times I visited 285 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:40.039 her in the county jail, she was finally not having 286 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:43.680 to pretend to be you know, a man number one, 287 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:48.799 or a provider or a father or any of those things. 288 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:51.799 And you know, I think she liked the attention to 289 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:57.359 obviously me being there and talking to her, But then 290 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:01.039 you know, she also has lawyers who you know, shut 291 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:02.720 all that down. As soon as I got home, I 292 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:06.039 had this letter waiting for me saying, you know, you 293 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:09.319 can't use anything she said because she's not mentally competent, 294 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:11.480 and he wouldn't talk to me. That lawyer wouldn't talk 295 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:15.440 to me about this. But it's pretty complicated and you 296 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.039 can't have it both ways. So if she wants to 297 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:24.559 get taxpayer subsidized gender confirmation surgery, which is now possible 298 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:29.000 in California for inmates in California prisons, much to the 299 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:33.119 dismay of pretty much everyone I talked to, taxpayers and 300 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:38.680 the victims' families alike, you have to be mentally competent 301 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:42.240 and able to make a medical decision. So I don't 302 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.880 know how that's going to play. If she is in 303 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:49.720 fact applying for this surgery, which she's wanted her whole life, 304 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:52.519 and in fact wanted so badly that she killed the 305 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.200 Hawks for it, if she's not mentally confident, then she's 306 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:58.160 not gonna be able to get that surgery. And second 307 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.480 of all, one of the other crag peria that the 308 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:07.359 state uses to decide who gets this surgery, and they've 309 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:12.039 only I think they've only approved something like ten requests. 310 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:16.720 And these numbers keep changing and growing, but they keep 311 00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:21.599 recategorizing gender and the way people identify. So there are 312 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:25.079 all these different terms being used now and they change 313 00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:27.400 all the time, and so I can't keep up with them. 314 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:31.160 But you know, there's non binary, there's you know, all 315 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:33.319 kinds of stuff where people want to be called they 316 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:38.119 instead of he or she, And so the prison system 317 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:40.640 is now having to figure out where to house these 318 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:45.640 people because the straight men and the straight women don't 319 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:49.240 want these people living with them because they feel whether 320 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:51.720 they're right or not. I think that in at least 321 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:55.720 the women, they say, well, these people were born as 322 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:58.680 men and you know, they could be more violent and 323 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:01.240 hurt us, and we don't want them, we don't feel safe. 324 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:07.240 And the men sexually assault the transgender females who were 325 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:09.920 you know, in the men's prison with them. So it's 326 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:13.880 actually quite a quandary for the prison system on trying 327 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:17.119 to figure out where to put these people. And once 328 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:21.720 somebody in Skyler's situation who has now gone to court 329 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:24.559 and gotten the judge to sign a petition that says 330 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:29.680 Skuyler's middle name is now Preciosa, which means jem. It 331 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:35.920 was previously Skyler was born John Julius Jacobson and changed 332 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:41.799 her name to Schuyler Julius Jacobson, and now it's Skyler 333 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:47.799 Preciosa Dillon. I'm sorry, Skyler Dillon, and then Skyler Preciosa Dillon. 334 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:51.720 And and she picked Skyler, I think because it was 335 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:53.759 kind of one of those names that could be male 336 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:59.880 or female. And now she has legally become a woman, 337 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:02.920 she can ask to be transferred to a women's prison, 338 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:05.559 because that was what she wanted to do way back 339 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:07.279 since she was in the county jail. That was one 340 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:10.079 of the things we talked about. And at the time, 341 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.799 they housed people according to their genitalia, so as long 342 00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:16.599 as you still had a penis, regardless of whether you 343 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:19.759 said you were a transgender female or not, if you 344 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:22.240 still had a penis, you were still housed with the men. 345 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:25.880 Now today that's changed because of the court precedence and 346 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:31.720 cultural changes that now if you ask to be transferred 347 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:35.680 to it's how you identify. So if you identify as 348 00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:38.319 a as a woman, but you still have a penis 349 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:42.720 they have to take your petitions seriously, and if you've 350 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:45.440 gone to court, presumably they have to take it even 351 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:48.559 more seriously. So she's either getting pretty good legal advice 352 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:52.000 to get what she wants, and she's you know, using 353 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:55.519 the system to her advantage. I keep watching, you know, 354 00:21:55.559 --> 00:22:00.839 the inmate locator computer system to see if she's been 355 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:05.039 moved or not. But you know, San Quentin has its 356 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:07.119 own psych unit, and she's been in and out of 357 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.960 there since it opened, which was in twenty fourteen. And 358 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:14.720 before that, there's a state prison facility at Vacaville, which 359 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:16.200 you might have heard of, and she was back and 360 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:21.720 forth between Vacaville and San Quentin repeatedly. One other thing 361 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:24.240 I can talk about was when I was sitting in 362 00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:27.440 the in the cage with her at San Quentin. This 363 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:32.279 was pretty scary. I came to visit her and they said, okay, 364 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:34.480 give us the paper that you brought and the pen, 365 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:38.240 which was supposed to be preapproved. They took away my 366 00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:40.599 paper and my pen and they gave me a notepad 367 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:42.720 that was theirs. Because you know, I'm probably going to 368 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:47.240 smuggle in something, right, I No, I'm not. And so 369 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:48.920 I sat there and they go go sit in that 370 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:51.039 cage over there. So I'm sitting in this cage and 371 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:53.880 then Skyler. They walked Skyler in, who now looks like 372 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:57.960 a woman with a side ponytail and breasts and the 373 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:00.599 whole thing, and they lock her in with me. 374 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:03.000 Like, oh my god. 375 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:06.240 And she puts her hands through the hole in the 376 00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:08.759 door and they take her cuffs off. So I'm sitting 377 00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:11.440 in there, locked inside a cage with someone who's killed 378 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.359 three people, you know, and had and showed no remorse 379 00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:18.039 about it whatsoever. And I'm sitting there with a pen, 380 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:22.519 and I'm sitting there with a spork, you know, a 381 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:26.720 plastic combination fork spoon. Because part of the deal when 382 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.559 you go and visit an inmate, you buy them lunch 383 00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:32.640 if you're going at lunchtime, because you're basically they don't 384 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.119 get to eat otherwise, and it's just a nice thing 385 00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:36.960 to do so that you know the person will talk 386 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:39.559 to you if you're someone in my situation. So I 387 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:43.559 bought her a casadilla chicken casado with a couple avocados, 388 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.440 which is what she wanted. And gave her the spork, right, 389 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:51.720 I purposely did not hand her a plastic knife. And 390 00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:55.920 then and then she wanted to draw me something with 391 00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:58.559 the pen, and I just thought to myself, nothing's gonna 392 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:01.200 could possibly end up in my and I, you know, 393 00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:04.279 and by the time the guard gets over there, who knows, 394 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:08.400 you know, what would happen anyway. But again, you know, 395 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:11.920 that didn't happen because she got to talk about what 396 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:13.799 she wanted to talk about, and I didn't upset her 397 00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:17.559 or say anything to confront her or anything. So but 398 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:22.279 my point is, you know, she wants to be housed 399 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:24.880 with the women, and it looks now that she's taken 400 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:30.480 legal steps to further that. And I am presuming that 401 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:34.200