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That's shumback casino dot Com. 43 00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:06.120 You'll progs dhere by lost in terms conditions eighteen plus. 44 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:18.479 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 45 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:21.599 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 46 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:27.759 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK. 47 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:32.479 Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 48 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:36.759 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 49 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:52.599 your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Kid evening when 50 00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:56.599 her missing boyfriend is found murdered, his body encased in 51 00:02:56.719 --> 00:03:00.840 cement inside a watering trough and dumped in a cattle field. 52 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:04.960 A local sheriff's deputy is arrested in charge with his murder, 53 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:09.080 but as New York Times best selling author and investigative 54 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:12.960 journalist M. William Phelps digs in the truth, leads to 55 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:17.120 questions about her guilt. In his first full length original 56 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:20.560 true crime book for Wild Blue Press, Phelps delivers a 57 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:24.759 hard hitting, unique reading experience, immersing readers in the life 58 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:28.680 of the first female deputy in Oglethorpe County, Georgia, who 59 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:32.039 claims a sexual harassment suit she filed against the sheriff 60 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:38.120 led to a murder charge. Is Tracy Fortson. Guilty or Innocent? 61 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:42.000 You read and decide. The book that we're featuring this 62 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:45.840 evening is targeted a Deputy, her love affairs, a brutal 63 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:51.879 murder with my specialized journalist, an author and filmmaker M 64 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:54.360 William Phelps. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 65 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:57.280 much for agreeing to this interview. M William Phelps. 66 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.520 Dan has always called me and thanks again for having me. 67 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:04.240 I love your show, so it's really an honor and 68 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:05.199 a pleasure to be honest. 69 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:09.120 Thank you very much. Here we are in Halloween so 70 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:13.080 Apara pos to talk to one of the masters of 71 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:16.959 true crime, Matthew I will call you so. Thank you 72 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:20.639 very much. Matthew. Let's talk about some of the stuff 73 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:22.519 that you talk about in the beginning of this book, 74 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:29.959 because you say some very very interesting things about the industry, 75 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.560 the future of true crime, and what's going on in 76 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:39.000 right now presently. You were involved with Dark Minds for 77 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:43.639 since twenty twelve and investigation. Tell us a little bit 78 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:47.000 about Dark Minds and what you've just come from the 79 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:50.000 last book we had on we were talking about your 80 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:55.600 relationship with the serial killer involved in Dark Minds. Tell 81 00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:58.600 us a little bit about just what you've been doing 82 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:03.680 recently that will inform that has informed you in preparation 83 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:05.199 for this book targeted. 84 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:09.680 Well, yeah, thanks Dan. I mean, for the most part 85 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:14.519 the Dangerous Grounds. Dangerous Ground rather was a kind of 86 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:18.040 a hybrid true crime menoir. So it's about my license crime, 87 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:22.000 my sister in law's murder, and my relationship with Keith 88 00:05:22.279 --> 00:05:27.199 A Happy Face Jessperson aka Raven d Mind, my investigation 89 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:30.959 Discovery series. And so that book started me down the 90 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:33.839 road to where it wasn't the first time that I 91 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.240 became part of the story. I had written a book 92 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:38.680 called I'll Be Watching You about a serial killer here 93 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:41.600 in Connecticut, and I became part of that story. So 94 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:43.839 I had written about, you know, in the first person, 95 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:49.279 as as a charen the story myself before and ultimately 96 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:53.000 as a writer I've spent a number of times if 97 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:56.240 you write professionally long enough, you're ultimately going to write 98 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:58.959 about yourself. What it did for me was open up 99 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:01.240 a new way to look at cases for me, you know, 100 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:04.160 injecting myself into the story and just to the story 101 00:06:04.199 --> 00:06:07.600 of my investigation rather than just reporting on it. So 102 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:13.120 with Dark Minds, with Dangerous Brown, I tooked into these cases, 103 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:18.639 and I talked about how they affected me personally, professionally, spiritually, psychologically, 104 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:24.839 emotionally really And so then this case of Tracy Fortune 105 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:27.360 came around, and if I can, then I'll just tell 106 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:28.839 you a little bit about how it came to me, 107 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:33.839 which is another interesting thing that really sparks my interesting cases. 108 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:37.160 I do a lot of work not only on investigation Discovery, 109 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:39.160 but I do lots of work for Oxygen. I do 110 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:42.959 lots of work for other television networks. So I know 111 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:46.160 a lot of producers and one producer in particular, Donna Dudeck. 112 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:49.600 She produced an episode of a series on Oxygen called Snapped, 113 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:54.839 and Tracy Portson was the subject of that Snapped episode. 114 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:58.120 And so Donna was here one day interviewing me on 115 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:00.639 another case, and she said, Phelps, you know, you really 116 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:02.600 need to take a look at this Tracy Fortson case. 117 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:04.399 It's it's got your name written all over it. I mean, 118 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:09.319 it's it's really it's perfect for your analysis, for you know, 119 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:11.800 for you to dig into and look at. So I said, well, 120 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:13.399 send me what you have and I'll take a look. 121 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:15.399 Just sent me a couple of things and I started 122 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:18.639 to look at it. I started to say, interesting. So, 123 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:21.439 you know, I juggle five or six crime cases at 124 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:23.399 the same time until I picked the one that I'm 125 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:25.160 usually going to write about in book for him. And 126 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:27.600 then my next My next move was to write to 127 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:30.000 Tracy Fortson, to contact some of the people involved in 128 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:32.600 the case, start talking to people, see what they thought. 129 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:36.319 And immediately Tracy Fortson was I didn't do it. You know, 130 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:38.839 I was framed, I was set up all of this 131 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:43.560 And as you know, Dan, I mean, I hear this 132 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:46.279 with every murder case I've written about. Whenever I interview 133 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:48.480 the murderer, the murderer is always innocent. And I think 134 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:51.120 Keith Justerson really is the only murder I've ever interviewed 135 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:53.560 who said I did it. I did it, man. 136 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:55.360 Yeah. 137 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:57.959 So when I started a conversation with Tracy Fortson, I 138 00:07:58.000 --> 00:07:59.519 started to listen to her. You know, I'm rolling my 139 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:02.600 eyes talking to me. You know, of course, I'm looking 140 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:05.160 at the evidence in this case, and I'm as you know, 141 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:07.040 you you know, you read the book, you look at 142 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.279 the evidence in this case, and it's like, well, jeez, 143 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:11.600 this is a slam dunk. I mean, this is you know, 144 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:14.920 there's there's no question about who did this, No question 145 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:20.519 at all, Right, So I became very interested in that, 146 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:24.160 exploring that question of why, sixteen years later is Tracy 147 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:27.240 Porson so stuck on the idea that she didn't do this? 148 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.160 So I just started down that route and it led 149 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:30.959 me to target it. 150 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:37.320 Now, you talk about some of the things that happened, 151 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:41.960 but let's talk about the characters themselves. You obviously talked 152 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:44.399 to Tracy, so you got everything in this book from 153 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:49.519 her early life right to how she came into the 154 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:51.960 position that she did to be involved with this Doug 155 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:59.000 and this case. So tell us about Tracy Fortson, you know. 156 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:01.240 And I want to say something about the about the 157 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:04.360 title of this book, targeted. It's the perfect title, really 158 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:10.159 because it's it's her contention that she was targeted, and 159 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:14.039 it's the court's contention, the prosecutor's contention that she targeted 160 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:20.039 Doug Doug Benton, the victim in this case. So so 161 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:22.320 it was the perfect title that anytime you have a 162 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:27.679 dual title, it works. So that's the way I from 163 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:30.200 both sides. So I begin to get to know Tracy, 164 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:36.480 and she is an abrasive She's a tough, talking, abrasive 165 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:42.000 kind of type a personality who likes to tell you 166 00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:45.960 how it is, and maybe maybe I'm describing myself, likes 167 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:49.120 to tell you how it is, and and kind of 168 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:53.639 get in your face and kind of say, I challenge you, 169 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.840 I challenge you to prove me wrong, that sort of thing. 170 00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:59.799 Take a look at this. But she's also in you 171 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:02.919 the respect. She's also a person who when you throw 172 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:04.919 stuff in front of her, when you put it in 173 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:06.960 front of her and say, look, well, look at this here, 174 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:09.399 how do you explain this? She wants to look beyond 175 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:12.080 it and move on to the next thing. So she's 176 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:17.120 really a person who I believe believes what she's saying. Now, 177 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:19.399 whether it's the truth or not, is besides this point 178 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:21.600 that I'm trying to make is that she believes what 179 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:23.960 it is she is saying at this point sixteen years later. 180 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:28.639 So it was really an obstacle in the beginning. And then, 181 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:30.960 of course, as you know reading the book, point in 182 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:33.320 time where I cut ties with her, she cut ties 183 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:35.240 with me. We stopped talking for three months, you know, 184 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:37.879 and then I kind of just gave her one more shot, 185 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:40.720 you know, and she kind of came around. 186 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:47.360 Do you know from all these books that and the 187 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:51.039 more you do this I think, or more anyone doesn't. 188 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:54.600 As an investigative journalist, do you realize that you never 189 00:10:54.679 --> 00:11:00.519 can come to conclusions without more questions? It seems there's 190 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:04.919 never any certainty to anything the more you look at 191 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.240 all kinds of possibilities. Now, what I'm saying might sound confusing. 192 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:13.600 What about the idea that and you must consider this, 193 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:17.360 that she is indeed guilty, but she has indeed had 194 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:20.159 enough years to look at this and say that she 195 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:24.720 didn't have a fair trial. And what do you do 196 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:29.120 with that type of situation? And how do you address 197 00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:31.200 that in your writing and in this book? 198 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:36.480 Those are great questions. And the beginning of this the 199 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:39.039 fact that she's had all these years and she's decided 200 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:41.679 that's not been a fair trial. Well, all her appeals 201 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:44.799 have been exhausted, and all the appeals courts said she 202 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:50.399 has had a fair trial. So legally speaking, judiciously speaking, 203 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:57.679 she's had many fair trials. In fact, you know, her 204 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:00.440 first trial, her second trial. You know, so there's been 205 00:12:00.440 --> 00:12:03.480 there was two trials in this case, and and and 206 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:05.840 and and I don't want to give away the outcome 207 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:08.679 to either one of them, but you know, uh, she's 208 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:11.159 had plenty of chances in the courtroom to prove her innocence, 209 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:13.200 and she has yet to do that. And then every 210 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:15.879 time she she doesn't get the chance to do it, 211 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:18.600 and and the chance falls to the wayside and she 212 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:23.720 doesn't accomplish the goal. It's the or it's this one's 213 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.200 fault for not coming forward, or it's this one's fault 214 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:28.360 for not signing an AFFI David, or it's that, you know. 215 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:33.080 So there's always this or that or this and geez 216 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.080 i I you know, when I look at the evidence 217 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:37.879 in this case, like I say in the book, if 218 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:40.759 I'm on the jury, I'm voting for guilty. There's no 219 00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:43.799 other possible way I can vote for anything other than 220 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:50.440 guilty because of the evidence. Is there some sketchy stuff? 221 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:54.919 Is there some questions revolving around certain witnesses? Is there 222 00:12:55.000 --> 00:13:00.000 some questions revolving around expert testimony and questionable evidence? Absolutely 223 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:02.240 there is. But when you look at any trial, there 224 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:06.159 is there's no trial that's infallible. There's no trial that 225 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:10.960 is that is devoid of any you know, mistakes, errors, 226 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:15.639 mistakes and judgment. People on the stand, lying, people lie 227 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:18.399 all the time in court. That's not that's nothing. That's new. 228 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:21.720 I mean, you know, if you're a pathological liar or 229 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:23.440 you lie, you're gonna lie in court too, What does 230 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:30.200 it matter to you? What really struck me is that 231 00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:35.759 when one avenue didn't work, she changes her tune to 232 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:38.840 another avenue of a red flag right there. Because if 233 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:40.840 you if you get if you go down a road 234 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.159 and you're like, well, this is the road that I'm on, 235 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:46.559 and if that road doesn't lead you to the destination, 236 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:48.279 you say, well that was the wrong road. Now I'm 237 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:50.240 on this other road. Well, you know what, I question 238 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:53.519 your your your objectivity, I question what you're saying. I 239 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:55.399 question everything really at that point. 240 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:00.639 What's interesting though, too, is in this book you really 241 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:04.399 do have the reader decide, and what you do is 242 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:09.519 is providing the information. Where you have the Georgia Bureau 243 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:14.759 of Investigation, Ralph Stone, and you talk about the crime scene. 244 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.600 He's a crime scene specialist, but he calls himself a 245 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:21.279 crime scene reconstructionist. He had never been to the actual 246 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:27.120 crime scene. It's just very interesting what could be used 247 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:30.559 if it was nefarious here, if there was some intent 248 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:34.120 to cover up or conspire. Tell us a little bit 249 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:40.440 about this very interesting crime scene specialist. 250 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:45.480 Well, That's a great point because you come to Ralph 251 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:47.759 Stone in the book and you're like, Okay, he wasn't 252 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:51.360 at the crime scene, but he's the prosecution's crime scene reconstructionist, 253 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:55.440 and how does he reconstruct the crime scene for photographs, 254 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:59.759 through interviews that he's read, through other pieces of evidence. 255 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:04.799 I know one of the best crime scene reconstructionists in 256 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:08.639 the world, you know him personally, names doctor Henry Lee, 257 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:12.720 who runs a school here in West Haven, Connecticut where 258 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:18.120 he reconstructs crime scenes and teaches that. And it's incredible 259 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:21.320 the amount of work he's done in this field. And 260 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:24.120 he goes to the crime scene and he reconstructs what happened. 261 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:27.320 So in this case, you know, you have a guy 262 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:29.720 that's given his expert testimony on something he's just seen 263 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:33.919 in photographs and stuff. And granted, he might be qualified 264 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:37.039 to do that, but the more the bigger problem here 265 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.600 that I see is that who's challenging this guy in 266 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:42.519 the witness stand. He didn't have much of a challenge 267 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:45.679 on the witness stand. So I'm gonna take advantage of 268 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:49.240 that situation. I'm not gonna lie, but I'm gonna take 269 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:52.919 advantage of this situation. You know, and I also think 270 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:55.159 and by the time you get to Ralph Stone in 271 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:58.279 the trial, you've absolutely made up your mind about her already. 272 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:00.919 You know, he's just kind of he's just kind of 273 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.159 patting the bow down to make sure the bow isn't 274 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:05.639 like blooming too much off the package. But he's just 275 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:09.679 patting the bow down, saying perfect, that ball is perfect. 276 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:15.519 You point out though, that it's very very interesting exactly 277 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.320 how you point out that he's asked to speculate. So 278 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.080 there's a lot of speculation leading to if you accept 279 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:26.919 that speculation or that conclusion based on that speculation, that 280 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.840 it's somewhat tenuous, if to say the least, all of 281 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:34.159 these things put together. And it is to me surprising 282 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:37.480 that he was allowed without objection, as you point out, 283 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.039 to be able to do that, to be able to 284 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:47.639 make sort of references and connections, and so as you 285 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:49.720 do in the book describe a little more what he 286 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.879 was able to do, the prosecution was able to use him, 287 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:57.120 to be able to say which was quite conclusive. 288 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:00.799 Yeah, I mean, I mean, the point I remember most 289 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:04.640 is is that I believe he was asked the question 290 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:09.720 who do you think committed this crime? One or two people? 291 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:12.400 And I believe he answered something to the fact of 292 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.279 and I'm summarizing, I believe it. I believe it was 293 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.000 one person, and I believe that person knew him, and 294 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.279 that person, you know, was very angry with him. That's 295 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:27.599 clear speculation that that, to me, is just outrageous on 296 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:31.279 the defense attorney. I'm standing up and objecting to that, 297 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:35.000 having it stricken the whole thing, because a hell, can 298 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:38.480 this guy say, who committed this crime? You know, who 299 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:42.279 we just described was Tracy Fordson. That's who he described. 300 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:46.680 The other idea is that we haven't talked about the 301 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:50.960 crime itself, but we did mention in the introduction that 302 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:59.079 Doug was Tracy's husband, was encased in cement and inside 303 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:02.680 disguised in inside a watering trough that had been disguised. 304 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:06.400 Now in this it doesn't look like you say it's 305 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:09.960 a slam dunk, that it's Tracy Fortson. According to a 306 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:15.599 couple of his friends, there was another interesting a part 307 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.200 of the investigation. It seems a miss. And you do 308 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:21.200 point out some of the things in the investigation, some 309 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:24.160 of the practices that were done that don't seem to 310 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:28.440 be normal investigative procedure. And one of those was the 311 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:34.640 question of when they talked to Jeff Bennett right after 312 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:38.680 and the idea that somehow he knew and made a 313 00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:42.839 statement regarding cement. Could you talk about that just a bit. 314 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:48.720 Yeah, I mean, you know, and look, in any investigation, 315 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:52.720 me as the third party, the outside party who has 316 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:56.559 the benefit of hindsight, meaning that I collect all the documentation, 317 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:58.400 and I collect all the interviews, and I sit down 318 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:01.480 and I look for mistakes. So I wasn't there, you know, 319 00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:05.880 in real time. You know, look, this was this was 320 00:19:06.039 --> 00:19:11.079 something that this this Sheriff's department hardly ever saw. I mean, 321 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.640 here you had a guy, Doug Benton, who was Tracy's boyfriend, 322 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.720 not her husband, but her boyfriend, in cased in cement 323 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:26.200 inside that watering trough. That watering trough spray painted, cameouflage, 324 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:30.720 you know, crudely cameouflaged with spray paint, and it was 325 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:37.559 dumped in a field, a pasture with you know, farm animals, Kyle's, 326 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:40.720 et cetera. Tracy hunted in and it was way out 327 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:48.640 and it was trying to be hidden, and you know, 328 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:51.559 you do a quick search. Immediately you find that Tracy 329 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:55.519 Fordson bought bags of cement at the local feed store. 330 00:19:55.559 --> 00:20:00.319 She bought a brand new galvanized watering trough that in 331 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:04.319 her garage. She has cans of spray paint that kind 332 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:08.880 of matched the camouflage colors. She even spray painted her 333 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:13.519 mailbox at some point the same colors. And you know, 334 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.519 looking at this, and there's there's cement in the back 335 00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:20.279 of her pickup truck, you know, powdered cement and scratches, 336 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:23.920 and there's indications on a tree next to the trough 337 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:26.519 that she used a wire to pull the thing off. 338 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:32.839 And you're like, holy wow, you know, oh my god. 339 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:35.599 And I look at that, and then they asked you, 340 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:39.359 Jeff Bennett. You know, a friend of Jeff's about a 341 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:43.279 friend of Doug's rather bent and the victim, and you know, 342 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:47.599 he mentions the word cement, and and I didn't see 343 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:51.000 too much in that. I didn't read too much into that. 344 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.000 Tracy read Moore into that than I did. He must 345 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:57.920 have he must have, you know, knew something about that 346 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:01.319 from somewhere else. She liked the point a singer at 347 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:06.200 Jeff Bennett. She liked to say that he knew things 348 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:07.920 he shouldn't have. But I never found any of that, 349 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:10.480 you know, I found a guy to be Jeff's good 350 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:13.480 friend who didn't like her. You know, That's what I found. 351 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.319 I found a lot of her his friends didn't like her. 352 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:19.720 I found that a lot of people didn't like her, 353 00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:24.519 that she was an unlikable person. I think the bigger 354 00:21:24.559 --> 00:21:28.279 piece of evidence to me that I I don't question it, 355 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:30.880 but I do have questions about it. If you can 356 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:35.359 understand that Dan is the neighbor. The neighbor, here's a 357 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:40.079 gunshot in Doug's house, and remember Doug a shot once 358 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:43.160 from the top of the skull. But she doesn't come 359 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:47.920 forward with that information for like six months, and that 360 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:54.559 that I wondered why, And yeah, so there's a lot 361 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:57.200 of questions, you know. So what I'm saying is this neighbor, 362 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:01.759 here's a gunshot, she reports, here a gunshot. I come outside. 363 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:04.599 I'm thinking someone's hunting. But then I see Tracy come 364 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:07.279 out of the house an hour later getting her truck 365 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:10.480 and leaves from Dougs. What does that tell you? You hear 366 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:12.920 a gun shot, Tracy walks out an hour later, gets 367 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.680 in her truck and leaves. And I'm a journal I'm thinking, 368 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:18.039 most you shot him. And then she cleaned up and 369 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:23.359 then she left right right. So there's a lot of 370 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:25.559 questions here, and I say that in the opening pages 371 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:27.799 of this book. There are so many questions that need 372 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:31.319 to be answered. If someone wants to dig further into this. 373 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:35.480 I'm satisfied with the perrect I'm satisfied with what happened 374 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.839 to Tracy. You know, I don't know that a further 375 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:43.359 investigation will dig up anything, but I think there's questions 376 00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:44.839 that need to be answered. And I could say that 377 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:46.279 about every case I look into. Dan. 378 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:53.640 Yeah, what was it again? We talked about how many 379 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:59.400 books that you have written, thirty one plus four history books, 380 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:01.720 so thirty i've in total? Is that correct? 381 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:03.559 Yeah? 382 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:14.960 I think a beautiful thirty sixth Earlie, we. 383 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:17.119 Didn't quite hear that. It was a little garbled, but 384 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.400 you were saying about thirty six. What I'm going to 385 00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:24.039 ask is, with all this experience and you do in 386 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:28.079 the beginning of the book talk about the state of 387 00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:34.480 true crime today, what is it that you have brought 388 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:39.400 to this book, to this this book and Wild Blue Press, 389 00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:44.680 And what does Wild Blue Press offer you in terms 390 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:47.759 of freedom, what freedom to do? What with this book? 391 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:51.000 And what do you bring from all that experience, all 392 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:55.720 the work that you've done, the experience on Dark Minds, investigation, discovery, 393 00:23:55.960 --> 00:24:00.400 everything you've done. And I agree with you taking these stories, 394 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:02.839 you have to become part of the story. You're such 395 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:06.759 so immersed in these things that you have to be 396 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:10.759 part of the story. What is all that experience brought 397 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.160 to this book that's different? 398 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:17.359 Can you hear me? Fine? I just want to make 399 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:20.880 sure you can hear me, Dan, Okay, cool? Yeah, I 400 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:23.319 mean I just in the beginning of this book, I 401 00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:27.799