1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,640 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,559 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:47,359 --> 00:00:50,079 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and. 14 00:00:50,079 --> 00:00:51,399 Speaker 2: I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 4: As I was getting ready to figure out what I 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,679 was going to put for this intro, I had Drew 17 00:00:55,759 --> 00:00:59,119 Carey in my head going to welcome to whose line 18 00:00:59,159 --> 00:01:01,399 is it anyway? Where everything's made up and the points 19 00:01:01,399 --> 00:01:07,840 don't matter. So I very nearly said it. 20 00:01:08,599 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 2: When does Drew Carey say that. 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 4: That's in front of whose line is it anyway? Which 22 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,480 is probably one of the best TV series of the 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:19,920 nineties and two thousands. 24 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 2: I don't think I'm familiar. 25 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, how are you not. It is the 26 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,480 funniest show going. I loved it, Okay, It's a wonderful 27 00:01:28,519 --> 00:01:31,840 little improv show. And so they have four different actors 28 00:01:31,879 --> 00:01:35,640 and are rotating round of guests like Robin Williams, for example, 29 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:37,319 who would come in and they have a set of 30 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,400 skits that you do, and they would call the actors 31 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:42,920 up on stage and they would tell them, Okay, here's 32 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,280 your skit, go to it, act it out, and they 33 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,439 would act it out in front of a live studio audience. 34 00:01:47,519 --> 00:01:51,319 It was hysterical. It is possibly one of the finest 35 00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:55,000 pieces of television that I can remember, and I am 36 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,640 absolutely desolate that they don't do reruns of it anymore. 37 00:01:58,959 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: Oh wait, no, I'm not. I can be able to 38 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,319 find this now that You've got me all curious. 39 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 4: Honestly, I'm not sure. He's probably on some streaming service somewhere. 40 00:02:07,879 --> 00:02:10,000 I have DVDs of it because I'm old school and 41 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,479 have a massive DVD collection. But it's hysterical. There is 42 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,840 very few things that are guaranteed to make me laugh that. 43 00:02:16,879 --> 00:02:19,759 Speaker 2: Is one of them, and the show again, whose. 44 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 4: Line is it anyway, It's actually based off of a 45 00:02:22,039 --> 00:02:24,919 British series of the same name, although the American series 46 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:25,879 is funnier. 47 00:02:25,759 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 2: And it sounds like the kind of actors and comedians 48 00:02:29,039 --> 00:02:30,879 that would appear on the show are people that are 49 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,280 strong on improv, like Robins and other people like that. 50 00:02:34,719 --> 00:02:35,159 Speaker 1: Mm hm. 51 00:02:35,159 --> 00:02:38,039 Speaker 4: So you'd have Wayne Brady who could break into spontaneous 52 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:40,199 song no matter what you do, no matter what you 53 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,439 ask him to do, Colin Machray, Ryan Styles, and then 54 00:02:43,439 --> 00:02:46,479 they would get major guest stars in there, and sometimes 55 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,360 they bring in like a random random celebrities, so like 56 00:02:49,439 --> 00:02:52,800 David Hasselhoff starred one day as a guest star, so 57 00:02:52,879 --> 00:02:55,719 did Robin Williams day, Jerry Springer one day, Like it 58 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:57,960 is the very nineties and two thousand. 59 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 2: I will seek that you should. 60 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,479 Speaker 4: It's hysterical, but that is the standard intro, and so 61 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,919 that's what was in my head when I started with 62 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:08,159 my own intro today. 63 00:03:08,439 --> 00:03:12,319 Speaker 2: I did think you were awfully chipper this fine summer morning. 64 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 4: Yes, I am offly chipper. It is a fine summer morning. 65 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,000 I know you're having terrible, horrible flooding up there, but 66 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,919 we're other than being caught in the heat bubble. I 67 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,039 think that's what they're calling it, the heat bubble. Pretty 68 00:03:24,039 --> 00:03:26,919 good down here, nice and sunny, very pretty. 69 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:28,319 Speaker 2: And you're finally on vacation. 70 00:03:28,759 --> 00:03:30,759 Speaker 4: To be fair, I've been on vacation for four weeks now, 71 00:03:30,759 --> 00:03:32,639 but yes, vacation. 72 00:03:33,599 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: But whose family. 73 00:03:34,719 --> 00:03:37,639 Speaker 4: My family is here. My family has come to visit. 74 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: So yeah, no, I don't know if having family visit 75 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,719 counts as vacation or not. 76 00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 4: It doesn't technically, but I would like to give a 77 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,879 shout out to my dad, whose eightieth birthday is coming 78 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:50,879 up in two days, and so we're having a big 79 00:03:50,919 --> 00:03:53,479 family reunion for my dad's eightieth birthday. 80 00:03:53,599 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: So happy birthday, Dad. 81 00:03:55,759 --> 00:04:01,199 Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, eighty. The old man is still kicking, doing great. 82 00:04:01,319 --> 00:04:03,719 Speaker 2: And still working, if I'm not mistaken. 83 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,159 Speaker 4: Yes, he has a produce business and he provides produce 84 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,599 to most of the restaurants in town. So he's constantly 85 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,159 running around doing things, hauling vegetables. He's very active, and 86 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,759 so I am hoping, knocking on wood, that we're going 87 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,639 to have him for I don't know, maybe ten twenty 88 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,040 more years. He actually called me the other day and said, 89 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,079 I've decided I'm going to live till ninety. 90 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,199 Speaker 2: Okay, okay, that's a good goal, all right, good goal. 91 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,279 My dad also lived to be ninety, so as long. 92 00:04:32,399 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 4: Mom's already said she's going to live to be one. 93 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: Hundred, so good for them. 94 00:04:36,199 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, they're going to manage it. 95 00:04:37,519 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 2: I think I'm assuming your dad eats lots of vegetables too, 96 00:04:40,639 --> 00:04:44,160 Yes he does. Okay, there you go, stay active, stay healthy, 97 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,560 and eat lots of vegetables. Absolutely, onto more serious topics. 98 00:04:49,519 --> 00:04:52,519 Speaker 4: This is longer intro than normal, but I think people 99 00:04:52,959 --> 00:04:55,000 like us enough that they'll forgive a little bit of 100 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,439 banter every once in a while, I hope. So we 101 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,759 did want to jump in and do some final thoughts 102 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:01,959 on Burden of Proof. We hope you've been enjoying our 103 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,480 coverage so far of that, and we were really pleased 104 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,120 to be able to have investigator Wendy Reid, filmmaker Cynthia Hill, 105 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,639 and Steven Pando's brother Jennifer Pandos on the show. So 106 00:05:11,639 --> 00:05:13,639 we hope you've enjoyed our coverage of that. But we 107 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,160 wanted to take a couple of minutes and do a 108 00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:17,839 final wrap up here and give our thoughts on the 109 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,160 whole entire series as we know it. You would ask 110 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,319 me on the phone yesterday, Bill, where are you in 111 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,759 who you think actually did this? And I'm waffle in 112 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,560 a hardcore I really am. I guess I'm just not 113 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,160 sure at the end of the day, after four episodes 114 00:05:34,199 --> 00:05:38,240 and talking with so many guests, I'm not sure where 115 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,920 I stand on this. And I think it's because you 116 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,879 had mentioned and you had iterated it so much more 117 00:05:43,879 --> 00:05:46,120 gracefully than I have. If you want to make an 118 00:05:46,199 --> 00:05:49,360 argument that the parents are involved, there's enough reasonable doubt 119 00:05:49,519 --> 00:05:51,920 for the boyfriend that you're going to have a hard 120 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,519 time making a conviction stick, and likewise for the boyfriend. 121 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,720 So I guess I'm really not sure where I'm at. 122 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,959 There is enough reasonable out for both, but I know 123 00:06:02,079 --> 00:06:04,879 you have a strong conviction one way or the other, 124 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,000 and so what side do you come down on? 125 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 2: Before I go there, let me just say that I 126 00:06:10,639 --> 00:06:14,879 think some of this thinking was influenced by our conversation 127 00:06:15,079 --> 00:06:18,160 with Wendy Reid. And remember we, in addition to saying 128 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,279 what people say on the airs, conversation before and afterwards 129 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:27,439 usually yes, and sometimes in preparation for interviewing a guest. 130 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,439 Forgive me I'm not trying to hide anything that Wendy 131 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,279 had said, But Wendy had said something about the fact 132 00:06:33,319 --> 00:06:36,480 that wearing her investigator hat, that this would be a 133 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,240 tough case to get a conviction. Because, forgive me, I'm paraphrasing, 134 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,079 I'm not saying Wendy said this exactly. But my takeaway 135 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:48,480 was it's almost like the two let's call them groups 136 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:54,199 of leading suspects almost cancel each other out. And Wendy 137 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,079 Reid is a former investigator who was thinking, can I 138 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:02,040 prove this with the help of the commonwealth prosecutor and 139 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,600 a legal team, can I prove this beyond a reasonable 140 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,319 doubt in a court of law? And even the origin 141 00:07:08,399 --> 00:07:11,079 of the name here burden of Proof is the name 142 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,759 of this HBO Max series. I come down after watching 143 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:19,199 the four episodes carefully and reading dozens of articles about 144 00:07:19,199 --> 00:07:22,279 this case and about this series, as well as talking 145 00:07:22,319 --> 00:07:26,439 to Wendy, Cynthia Hill, Stephen Pandos, and others. I'm in 146 00:07:26,519 --> 00:07:31,040 the camp that I believe that her former boyfriend Tony 147 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,279 Tobler and his wife Corey could be involved in the 148 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:40,399 disappearance and likely homicide of Jennifer Pandos. As we discussed 149 00:07:40,639 --> 00:07:45,680 on the podcast. I find the behavior of the Pandos' parents, 150 00:07:46,279 --> 00:07:51,680 Ron and Margie incredibly frustrating and potentially incriminating because their 151 00:07:51,759 --> 00:07:56,199 behavior was just so profoundly bizarre from my point of view, 152 00:07:56,199 --> 00:07:59,319 and I think I may be uniquely qualified to make 153 00:07:59,399 --> 00:08:04,399 this state. I understand that people under what is probably 154 00:08:04,439 --> 00:08:08,639 the most stressful and excruciatingly painful experience of their lives, 155 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,480 losing a child, adult or minor, may do and say 156 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,920 things that don't seem to make sense to those of 157 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,040 us that who haven't lived yet. But I thought the 158 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:23,600 Pandos's comments and behavior and just truly strange things that 159 00:08:23,639 --> 00:08:27,279 they did made them look guilty even to this day. 160 00:08:27,879 --> 00:08:31,920 Yet I can't help but think that the person or 161 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,200 persons who had the greatest motivation to make Jennifer disappear 162 00:08:37,519 --> 00:08:42,240 were Tony Tobler and his wife Corey. Let's not forget. 163 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,679 I don't think it gets quite enough time in the documentary, 164 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,879 and there's only four episodes. There had been a pregnancy 165 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,840 the year before, and a fifteen year old girl pregnant 166 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,960 with her sixteen year old boyfriend's baby. Back then and 167 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,080 even now is very different, dificult situation to find yourself 168 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:06,240 in and I cannot help but think that the distancing 169 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:12,000 language that Tony used in the interview segment, his body language, 170 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:18,600 his wife Corey's body language, their attempt to minimize the relationship, yes, 171 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,159 between Tony and Jennifer, which seems to be more than 172 00:09:23,279 --> 00:09:28,200 offset by these very intimate, passionate notes back and forth 173 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:31,960 between the two teenagers when they were a couple. Clearly, 174 00:09:32,159 --> 00:09:36,399 Cory and Jennifer were romantic rivals for this young man. 175 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:41,320 I'm not buying the way that Tony in particular seems 176 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,440 to minimize the relationship. Oh, it was only a couple 177 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,159 of months, and no, I believe that's not factually correct. 178 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,120 I believe there is significant overlap between his having a 179 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,840 relationship with up to an including sexual contact because we 180 00:09:57,919 --> 00:09:59,879 have a pregnancy in the middle of all of this. 181 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,080 So I'm not making any of this up. I believe 182 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,720 his attempts to slough that off are way less than convincing. 183 00:10:07,919 --> 00:10:12,320 And I think that I could easily see Corey giving 184 00:10:12,519 --> 00:10:16,360 Tony an ultimatum, which is either she goes or I go, 185 00:10:16,759 --> 00:10:20,840 and I could see him desperately making a decision that 186 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:23,879 he had to kill her. In his sixteen year old mine, 187 00:10:23,919 --> 00:10:28,399 that was a logical conclusion to Corey's potential threats, and 188 00:10:28,519 --> 00:10:31,360 I could even see her being involved in a cover 189 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,879 up of Jennifer Pando's murder. 190 00:10:34,399 --> 00:10:36,639 Speaker 4: And that's I think that's really where we get to. 191 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:38,480 The crux of the matter here for me, is that 192 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,639 there is so much suspicious behavior on both sides, and 193 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,519 definitely the fact that he minimized his relationship with jen 194 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,039 when clearly it is not the case that it was, Oh, 195 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,799 we just dated for a little bit. NOAHM, I dude, 196 00:10:51,879 --> 00:10:54,720 it's more than that. That is what I guess rings 197 00:10:54,759 --> 00:10:57,840 the most bells for me. But I also can't get 198 00:10:57,879 --> 00:11:01,639 past to the fact that you have who is very 199 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:06,799 clearly emotionally abusive, probably physically abusive as well, and he 200 00:11:06,879 --> 00:11:11,240 made all those damning statements up to and including hypothetically 201 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:14,120 I killed her and pushed her down and she hit 202 00:11:14,159 --> 00:11:17,759 her head or whatever. Who says that with relation to 203 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,840 their daughter. I don't understand that. For me, that was 204 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,720 if we're looking at big red flags here. On Tony's side, 205 00:11:25,759 --> 00:11:28,720 you've got the minimizing of the relationship pretending it's less 206 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:31,879 than it was. And on mom and Dad's side, you've 207 00:11:31,919 --> 00:11:37,039 got Run's bizarre comments up to and including I will 208 00:11:37,039 --> 00:11:39,679 get a plane, I'll take you to her body right now. Again, 209 00:11:39,759 --> 00:11:41,080 who says that, I think. 210 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,399 Speaker 2: That that incredibly damning to say that. Now he did 211 00:11:45,519 --> 00:11:49,440 recan't He did back off, and he obviously didn't take 212 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,720 them to the place where his daughter, Jennifer's body could 213 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,679 be found. But I did find that profoundly disturbing. 214 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 4: Now you've got when you take Charlie may And to account, 215 00:12:00,639 --> 00:12:03,360 who really only showed up in the last episode, I 216 00:12:03,399 --> 00:12:07,159 don't know how much credence you can give Charlie this 217 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,039 idea of dissolving a body in acid. I was talking 218 00:12:11,039 --> 00:12:14,200 to a friend last night who had watched the documentary 219 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,080 series and he'd gotten done, and he messaged me and he 220 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:18,679 was like, that took a bit of a turn, did it? 221 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,000 And he said, look, you can dissolve a body in 222 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,600 acid in a bathtub and breaking bad, but I don't 223 00:12:26,639 --> 00:12:29,559 think you can do it in real life. And then, 224 00:12:29,799 --> 00:12:32,559 because I'm a writer, because I'm a podcaster, I did 225 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,840 what I normally do when I need a question answered 226 00:12:34,879 --> 00:12:37,480 about this, And I'm hoping that the FBI, when they 227 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,120 look at my search history one day, will understand that 228 00:12:40,159 --> 00:12:41,919 as a writer and a podcaster. This is stuff that 229 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,840 I look up, but I looked up can you dissolve 230 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:45,879 a body in acid? 231 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,279 Speaker 2: Yeah? That is a little unusual, but I will confess 232 00:12:49,399 --> 00:12:53,559 that my search history probably contains a lot of similar 233 00:12:53,919 --> 00:12:57,039 activity which I have not personally been involved in. 234 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 4: Yeah. I'm hoping that the FBI or whoever it is 235 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,519 that one day theoretically will look at our search history. 236 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,159 I hope they can. There should be a filter that says, 237 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,000 I'm a writer, not a serial killer. I'm a researcher, 238 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,120 not a serial killer. I'm not looking to dissolve bodies 239 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,039 and acid. I just want to know if you can. 240 00:13:14,759 --> 00:13:18,159 And actually, interestingly enough for anybody who wants to know, 241 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,039 can you. There is a great article that I found 242 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:26,840 in it's just a little online periodical. It's an online 243 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,879 periodical called Chemistry World, and I found an opinion article 244 00:13:30,919 --> 00:13:34,279 from June twenty seventeen of Chemistry World called the acid 245 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,879 bath Test, and it does discuss, Hey, there have been 246 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,399 killers over the years that have used acid to destroy bodies, 247 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,240 but did it work? And all of them were hot 248 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,039 because of paper trails, because the police were able to 249 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,519 track down like this person went to home depot and 250 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,360 got a whole ton of muratic acid and a big 251 00:13:55,399 --> 00:13:59,039 fifty gallon drum. But they also just said there's always 252 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,240 no matter how much acid you pour in on a body. 253 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:02,799 I'm going to try it to go into too many 254 00:14:02,799 --> 00:14:05,440 gruesome details here. Yeah, no matter how much acid you 255 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,440 pour on a body, there's still going to be stuff leftover. 256 00:14:07,919 --> 00:14:10,039 There was a guy who managed to dissolve most of 257 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,000 a body, but there was still teeth, bones, and fat leftover, 258 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,200 and that required disposal as well. So the idea that like, 259 00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:20,480 you just stuff somebody in a fifty gallon drum, pour 260 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,919 a bunch of acid over it, and it's good. According 261 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,360 to this article, that's not how it works. 262 00:14:25,519 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: My understanding as well. Although you're the one that's been 263 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,279 researching chemistry world. 264 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, like I said, I'm hoping the FBI understands my search. 265 00:14:35,399 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: History again without getting too graphic. A body consists of 266 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,039 hard stuff and soft stuff. Yep. My older brother Richard, 267 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,559 as a doctor, would be groaning right about now. But 268 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:53,840 the hard stuff obviously doesn't go away. So teeth and 269 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:59,240 bones and those hard parts are found decades later. If 270 00:14:59,279 --> 00:15:02,519 they're still together, or if there's enough of them, it 271 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,960 could only take a tooth. Our friends in the forensic 272 00:15:06,039 --> 00:15:09,279 world at Athram and other top labs around the country 273 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,240 are solving cases with as little as a bone fragment 274 00:15:13,559 --> 00:15:17,840 or a tooth and then extracting DNA from inside those 275 00:15:18,039 --> 00:15:20,879 hard parts. So even if you were able to dissolve 276 00:15:21,399 --> 00:15:24,440 much of the soft tissue that makes up a person's 277 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,919 body and dispose of that, you still have all these 278 00:15:29,159 --> 00:15:33,279 other elements of what make up the human body. Yeah, 279 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:37,720 and you still have a disposal issue with those hard parts. 280 00:15:38,279 --> 00:15:41,639 As gruesome as it sounds, you'd still have to dispose of, 281 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,759 let's say, the fifty five gallon drums and the acid 282 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,519 and the components of the human body that were left behind. 283 00:15:49,919 --> 00:15:52,679 The Breaking Bad series ran from two thousand and eight 284 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,320 to twenty thirteen, and I've. 285 00:15:55,159 --> 00:15:57,279 Speaker 4: Never watched it, So if you've watched it, you're going 286 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,559 to have to kill Meana, Did you believe that? 287 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: I have never watched it either. It's always been on 288 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,960 my list of programs I'd like to watch. But remember Pamela, 289 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,080 my wonderful and long suffering partner, doesn't want to watch 290 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,200 just true crime, so she usually looks for things that 291 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,919 are uplifting. She'd probably like to watch Breakfast at Tiffany's 292 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,720 one more time before she'd want to watch something about 293 00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:24,720 dissolving missing loved one's bodies an acid. Charlie may have 294 00:16:24,879 --> 00:16:29,320 dreamed out the acid idea years later, but when I 295 00:16:29,399 --> 00:16:33,240 spoke to Wendy Reid, she said that Charlie May's story 296 00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:38,840 about this potential disposal of Jennifer Pandos's body probably pre 297 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,639 dates Breaking Bad by a number of years now. The 298 00:16:42,799 --> 00:16:47,279 idea of dissolving human remains in acid has been around 299 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,559 for many years, and it has been done. As you 300 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:53,120 pointed out, if Charlie May, who does not strike me 301 00:16:53,159 --> 00:16:56,759 as the most reliable witness ever, is making up this story, 302 00:16:56,919 --> 00:16:59,759 Wendy Reid made the point when I asked her about it, 303 00:16:59,799 --> 00:17:03,519 is his story consistent over the years she believes that 304 00:17:03,679 --> 00:17:06,200 it is. That doesn't mean that it's not made up. 305 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:08,680 At least he's come up with the story and he's 306 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:09,319 sticking to it. 307 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,079 Speaker 4: Yeah. I don't know at the end of the day, 308 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,920 which of these two scenarios I believe more. I would 309 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,160 say that they are both probable, and I'm just honestly 310 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,519 not I don't have enough swaying me in one direction 311 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,480 or the other to be able to come down on 312 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,839 one side or the other. So, even though I don't 313 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:32,079 like to firmly straddle the fence on cases like this, 314 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,480 that's honestly where I find myself right now, which I'm 315 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,680 sure is a little annoying from your standpoint too, But 316 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,319 I'm just I'm honestly not sure. I guess where I 317 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,799 come down more than anything else, for this would I 318 00:17:44,839 --> 00:17:47,079 take out of this more than anything else is just 319 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,519 Stephen's story and how hard this has been for him, 320 00:17:50,799 --> 00:17:53,400 and how maddening it must be not to have these 321 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,079 answers for so long, and that's, of course a theme 322 00:17:56,079 --> 00:17:58,400 that we're both familiar with. I guess if I had 323 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,640 to focus on any one thing that I got out 324 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,240 of Burden of Proof, it would be Stephen's story. With 325 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,279 Jen's I don't want to say it's fallen into the background, 326 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,599 because it hasn't. And I want justice for Jennifer and 327 00:18:10,759 --> 00:18:14,039 answers for her. When I think of anything from Burden 328 00:18:14,079 --> 00:18:16,519 of Proof, I think of Stephen, and I think of 329 00:18:16,599 --> 00:18:18,880 what he said in our last episode, which is in 330 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,680 the absence of justice from my sister. I just want peace. 331 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,319 Speaker 2: One thing in our discussion here, we're focusing on two 332 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:31,119 principal groups that we think could be responsible for Jennifer's disappearance. 333 00:18:31,799 --> 00:18:34,480 I want to make it clear that it could be 334 00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:39,160 a third party. It could very easily be someone who 335 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,240 may be mentioned in the documentary or maybe hasn't been 336 00:18:42,279 --> 00:18:45,839 mentioned at all. I do think the fact that King's 337 00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:51,279 Mill is a secured residential facility, and as Stephen pointed 338 00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:54,200 out on the podcast, even one of the two gates 339 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,839 was closed at eleven PM or midnight, leaving only one 340 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,519 or at most two ways to legitimately gain entrance to 341 00:19:02,599 --> 00:19:06,559 the Kingsmill property. I think that it becomes challenging to 342 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:11,720 narrow down to other potential suspects if you can't figure 343 00:19:11,759 --> 00:19:15,240 out how they got onto the property at the same 344 00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:18,279 time how they got off the property. Now it's possible 345 00:19:18,319 --> 00:19:22,240 that Jennifer's remains could be somewhere within the Kingsmill property, 346 00:19:22,319 --> 00:19:24,720 and there's a lot of question as to whether the 347 00:19:24,759 --> 00:19:29,400 property was properly searched. Although certainly cadaver dogs were used, 348 00:19:29,599 --> 00:19:35,079 they did hit on the area under the condo she 349 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,480 lived with her parents, and that's not ever adequately explained. 350 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,480 People that we've spoken to don't seem to have an 351 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,920 explanation for it. Either. Now, dogs will hit on places. 352 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,960 We've been involved in cadaver dog searches before for a 353 00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:55,319 variety of reasons, and they are there to smell decay, 354 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,359 and they are supposed to only hit on a place 355 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,839 where a human being, that is, a body has been placed. 356 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,839 But there could be a lot of different aspects to that, 357 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,039 which could include by the way, Jennifer being murdered or 358 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,200 body being placed under the condo and then moved at 359 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,640 a later point, which could be hours or days or longer. 360 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,480 It is interesting that the dogs did hit on the 361 00:20:20,599 --> 00:20:23,640 crawl space area under the condo and yet no remains 362 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,000 wherever found there. There's discussion some of this isn't completely 363 00:20:28,279 --> 00:20:31,079 satisfactory from my point of view as to whether the 364 00:20:31,079 --> 00:20:34,000 mill pond was properly searched. And I don't even know 365 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,200 if that's a body of water that you can drain 366 00:20:37,279 --> 00:20:40,680 or if divers would have to be, nor how deep 367 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,319 it is. And then of course the James River is 368 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:44,400 not far away as well. 369 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,039 Speaker 4: Am I correct, that's right, there is a marina on property. 370 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 2: I do agree with you, Kristen that my strongest takeaway 371 00:20:50,759 --> 00:20:53,680 of the series is the focus on Stephen and his 372 00:20:53,799 --> 00:20:57,720 personal journey. And it was very interesting when Cynthia Hill said, 373 00:20:57,759 --> 00:21:00,960 when they began creating this documentary, what's that now seven 374 00:21:01,039 --> 00:21:04,000 years ago? It was never their goal for this series 375 00:21:04,039 --> 00:21:06,039 to be a who'd done it? As she put it, 376 00:21:06,039 --> 00:21:10,480 it was to focus on Stephen Pandos and his family, 377 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:15,319 their loss, and their journey through this process. I don't 378 00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:17,599 think anyone anticipated they were going to be working on 379 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,119 this documentary for seven years or that Stephen personally, together 380 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,480 with his family, went through so much in terms of 381 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,000 his pursuit for justice for his sister and answers for 382 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,599 himself and the rest of his family. And obviously, at 383 00:21:32,599 --> 00:21:35,400 this point the series has to end on a question 384 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,319 mark because we don't have any answers in the Jennifer 385 00:21:38,319 --> 00:21:39,440 Pandos disappearance. 386 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,799 Speaker 4: We would encourage anyone who thinks that they have information 387 00:21:43,079 --> 00:21:45,640 about the disappearance of Jennifer Pandos to reach out to 388 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,960 the James City County Police Department. Any tip that you have, 389 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,359 anything that you think maybe worthwhile, is definitely something that 390 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,720 is worth calling and about. So please do make sure 391 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,480 if you are local and you have any information related 392 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,119 to the disappearance of Jennifer Panda that you reach out 393 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,279 to the James City County Detectives. 394 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 2: You're listening to mindover Murder. We'll be right back after 395 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:15,920 this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder, all. 396 00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:18,759 Speaker 4: Right, moving on to our next area of discussion here, 397 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:23,079 very interested to hear that the leading suspect in the 398 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,920 nineteen eighty two thailanol poisonings was found dead in his 399 00:22:28,079 --> 00:22:32,559 home over this past weekend. James Lewis, seventy six years old, 400 00:22:32,759 --> 00:22:37,119 was found dead in his home in Cambridge, Massachusetts, on Sunday. 401 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,960 They do not suspect foul play of any variety natural 402 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,640 causes as far as they're aware. I'm going to quote 403 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,759 from The Independent here. The sole suspect and the tailannyl 404 00:22:46,839 --> 00:22:50,400 poisoning murders that claimed seven lives and led to changes 405 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:55,599 in how OTC prescription drugs are manufactured and sold has died. 406 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,559 For anyone who's unfamiliar with the tailoanol case, let me 407 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,680 just give you a real quick hit of background information here. 408 00:23:04,319 --> 00:23:07,519 The tailenyal murders took place in October of nineteen eighty two. 409 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,079 Bottles of tailanol around the Chicago, Illinois area were laced 410 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:17,559 with potassium cyanide that ultimately led to seven deaths, including 411 00:23:17,759 --> 00:23:22,279 very tragically three deaths in the same family. The victims 412 00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:27,759 of the Taylanal murders are Mary Kellerman age twelve, Mary McFarland, 413 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,880 age thirty one, Mary Lynn Reiner age twenty seven, Paula 414 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,079 Prince age thirty five, Adam Janis twenty seven, his brother 415 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:44,720 Stanley Janis twenty five, and Stanley's wife, Teresa Janis, age 416 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,200 twenty and all three of them died within a couple 417 00:23:48,279 --> 00:23:51,519 of hours of each other. Police long suspected that the 418 00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:55,599 motive for the Tailanhol poisonings was revenge, which I think 419 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,559 is very interesting. Lead suspect James Lewis had a a 420 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:04,079 five year old daughter named Tony. She died in nineteen 421 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,000 seventy four after sutures made by the Johnson Company, which 422 00:24:08,039 --> 00:24:11,720 does make tailanl Those sutures were used to fix her 423 00:24:11,759 --> 00:24:15,359 congenital heart defect. Those sutures did tear and they led 424 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,920 to her death. So a long running theory and the 425 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,039 reason for the Tilenhol poisonings was ostensibly revenge against Johnson 426 00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:26,839 and Johnson James Lewis was never actually convicted for any 427 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,720 of the murders in the Tilanol case. What he was 428 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:35,880 convicted for ultimately was attempting to extort manufacturer Johnson and Johnson. 429 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,000 He sent a letter claiming responsibility for the deaths, and 430 00:24:40,039 --> 00:24:44,200 he demanded one million dollars of Johnson and Johnson to 431 00:24:44,319 --> 00:24:48,480 stop the killing. For that crime, he was imprisoned and 432 00:24:48,599 --> 00:24:51,799 ultimately released in nineteen ninety five, after which point he 433 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,079 moved to Massachusetts and lived a quiet life. 434 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 2: Now I'm going to push back on something that the 435 00:24:56,519 --> 00:24:59,880 Independent said, which is that James Lewis was the soul 436 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:06,160 suspect in the Tailanhall poisoning murders. Lewis was never convicted 437 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,880 of actually being involved in the product hampering, all of 438 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,359 which are in the Chicago land areas in Chicago and 439 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:19,200 suburban areas surrounding Chicago. Lewis lived in the Boston area. 440 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,640 I have been fascinated by this case since it happened, 441 00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:26,400 and I am far from an expert, but I have 442 00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:28,799 talked to a number of people about this case and 443 00:25:28,839 --> 00:25:32,000 done a fair amount of research over the years. The 444 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,559 FBI and the Illinois State Police and local law enforcement 445 00:25:36,759 --> 00:25:40,440 in Chicago, together with other law enforcement agencies, were never 446 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,000 able to prove that James Lewis was involved in this 447 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,640 product tampering. There is still a strong possibility that Lewis 448 00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:53,000 took advantage of the situation. I don't doubt that James 449 00:25:53,079 --> 00:25:56,880 Lewis had an agenda and that he wanted to strike 450 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,960 out against the Johnson and Johnson company, who was you said, 451 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,279 manufactured and distributed tailanol. But many experts feel that there's 452 00:26:05,319 --> 00:26:08,839 a possibility that he just stepped in when he saw 453 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,720 that Johnson and Johnson was scrambling to recall every bottle 454 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:20,039 of tailanol on product shelves, grocery stores, pharmacies, you name it, 455 00:26:20,079 --> 00:26:24,119 in an effort to recall all that product to make 456 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,680 sure that this product tampering and these ensuing deaths weren't 457 00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:32,359 happening on a wider scale. But they weren't. It was 458 00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:36,480 only in the Chicago area. They were never able to 459 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,480 figure out how James Lewis was able to conduct this 460 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,000 product tampering, which would have involved opening these toalenol bottles, 461 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:52,079 taking out the capsules, inserting cyanide in place of the acetamenefin, 462 00:26:52,279 --> 00:26:56,480 which is the active ingredient in chilanol, and then buttoning 463 00:26:56,519 --> 00:26:59,440 them back up and then placing them on pharmacy and 464 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:04,039 grocery store shelves. It has always struck me that they 465 00:27:04,079 --> 00:27:06,759 were never able to prove that. Now they were able 466 00:27:06,759 --> 00:27:08,880 to prove that Lewis wrote the letter and that he 467 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,079 was attempting to extort the money, which is what he 468 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,680 was convicted for. Here it is, it's all these years later, 469 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:20,319 forty years, they still can't prove that he actually was 470 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,079 directly involved in the product hampering. So did he have 471 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:29,200 an accomplice in the Chicago area or how did this work? 472 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,319 Now we've talked to some experts who think that he 473 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,400 is an extortionist, but he may not be a murderer. 474 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,279 Speaker 4: Very interesting. This is a case that we have toyed 475 00:27:41,519 --> 00:27:44,759 around with covering on Mind over Murdered. If you, all, 476 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,559 our beloved listening audience, are interested in having us cover 477 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,759 the tail and all murders, please dor weigh in on 478 00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:53,519 our social media page and let us know we are 479 00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:56,839 happy to do some additional coverage on this fun little 480 00:27:56,839 --> 00:27:59,960 piece of trivia for anybody orn after the nineteen eighty 481 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,079 If you have ever hated the tamper resistant childproof seal 482 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,799 and the foil that is on top of the tailen 483 00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:09,079 all bottles and advill bottles and every other type of 484 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,839 bottle that is a direct result of the tail and 485 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,119 all killings. The FDA introduced anti tampering features on over 486 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,160 the counter drugs, such as that foil seal. I vaguely 487 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,640 remember back in the day when it used to be 488 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,920 a screw bottle and then a little bit of cotton 489 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,440 on the inside that you would have to pull out, correct, 490 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,799 But I don't remember. I actually remember a time before 491 00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:33,000 the foil seal. The taileant All Bill was also passed 492 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,359 by Congress in nineteen eighty three, and that did make 493 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,400 tampering with packaging a federal offense, and that is a 494 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,200 direct result of the tail in all case. 495 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,559 Speaker 2: Johnson and Johnson, by the way, was I think correctly 496 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:50,200 lauded for the most successful product we call ever every 497 00:28:50,279 --> 00:28:53,079 division of Johnson and Johnson. That's a very large company. 498 00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:58,119 They manufacture all kinds of drugs and consumer goods. Every 499 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,119 single employee available to Johnson and Johnson was sent out 500 00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:05,079 into the field and over the course of a couple 501 00:29:05,119 --> 00:29:08,240 of days they collected every single bottle of Thailand and 502 00:29:08,279 --> 00:29:11,640 Hall on every single shelf in the United States. It 503 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,359 was actually a pretty amazing undertaking. What I find fascinating 504 00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:21,279 is that they never found any tampered product beyond that 505 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,599 small circle of pharmacies and grocery stores convenience stores in 506 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:27,960 the Chicago area. 507 00:29:28,599 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 4: Very interesting. 508 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,599 Speaker 2: One of the things that's interested us is that we 509 00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:37,640 were approached several years ago by a legitimate guy, a 510 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:42,279 well informed individual who has an alternate theory on the 511 00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:46,480 Tailanhaw murders. As Kristin asked, is this the kind of 512 00:29:46,559 --> 00:29:50,359 thing you'd like to see us explore? We'd only be 513 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,559 interested in talking about this case or any other if 514 00:29:53,599 --> 00:29:57,839 we could bring some fresh perspective or new information. We 515 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,279 certainly don't mind talking about the case. It's a fascinating case. 516 00:30:01,319 --> 00:30:04,119 It happened so long ago now over forty years, that 517 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,559 many people don't even remember the case or weren't even 518 00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:09,880 alive who might be true crime fans. It was one 519 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,000 of those situations where the entire country was almost completely 520 00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:17,720 paralyzed by this because it was so frightening that you'd 521 00:30:17,759 --> 00:30:20,279 go to the pharmacy, pick something up for a headache, 522 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,359 bring it home, and you'd be dead in a matter 523 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,440 of a couple of hours. And as you mentioned, Kristin, 524 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,480 this situation with the young Janice family. 525 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 4: Oh, that's awful. 526 00:30:30,279 --> 00:30:34,079 Speaker 2: Three people in the same family all died within hours 527 00:30:34,079 --> 00:30:37,000 of each other because they all shared a bottle of 528 00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:37,839 time and all. 529 00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 4: One of them. So I think it was Adam Janis. 530 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,119 Adam Janis, he had taken the tileot all for headache. 531 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,680 I think it was he passed away relatively quickly after 532 00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:53,400 coming home and from the hospital learning that their loved 533 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,079 one had died. It was either the sister in law 534 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,640 or the brother who took the tilet all because they 535 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,799 had a headache from crying, and then one died and 536 00:31:01,839 --> 00:31:04,160 then the other did right after that, And I just 537 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,440 I can't imagine what terrible feelings that family was left 538 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,640 with to lose not one, not two, but three people 539 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,240 almost on the exact same day as a result of 540 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,920 the same bottle of contaminated to pilot all. It's awful. 541 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,319 I'm remembering properly. Last year, the surviving child of the 542 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,440 Janice family was actually featured on one of the investigative 543 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,319 shows talking about the fact that it's been forty years 544 00:31:28,359 --> 00:31:30,319 and there still hasn't been an arrest in the case, 545 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:31,920 and that was just heartbreaking. 546 00:31:32,759 --> 00:31:36,119 Speaker 2: One thing that cropped up in the Boston Globes coverage 547 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,599 of Lewis's death, and the Globe has done a fair 548 00:31:39,599 --> 00:31:42,519 amount of coverage because of course James Lewis lived in 549 00:31:42,519 --> 00:31:46,319 the Boston area for many years. They covered something that 550 00:31:46,519 --> 00:31:50,680 I didn't remember seeing. The Boston Globe mentioned that the 551 00:31:50,799 --> 00:31:54,680 Chicago Tribune in their coverage last year on the fortieth 552 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,519 anniversary of the time in All Murders, mentioned that James 553 00:31:59,559 --> 00:32:03,920 lewis personal history, which is pretty twisted, had included being 554 00:32:04,039 --> 00:32:07,759 charged in nineteen seventy eight with killing an elderly client 555 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,880 while he was working as a tax accountant. The charge 556 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,599 was dropped due to a police procedural error. I don't 557 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,559 remember ever hearing that Lewis was involved in other potential homicides. 558 00:32:21,119 --> 00:32:24,319 So that's a fascinating little tidbit which will now steer 559 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:29,119 us back towards rereading the Chicago Tribunes coverage which came 560 00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:34,519 up in the Boston Globe story about Lewis's body being discovered. Lewis, 561 00:32:34,519 --> 00:32:37,400 by the way, was married and his wife was out 562 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,160 of town at the time of his death. Kristin, as 563 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,480 you mentioned, it appears for the moment anyway, that James 564 00:32:44,559 --> 00:32:48,599 Lewis's death appears to be a natural one. 565 00:32:47,759 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 4: Their suspicious circs for that very interesting sort of coda 566 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,359 to the Tailan All murders. We are very interested in 567 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,519 covering it if you are lovely listeners would be interested 568 00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:00,680 in hearing us talk about it, So please do let 569 00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:03,480 us know on our social media page how much interest 570 00:33:03,519 --> 00:33:06,759 do you have in coverage on the tailenhol murders. Another 571 00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:09,640 big piece of true crime news that happened just yesterday 572 00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:14,240 is the parole of Manson killer Leslie van Houghton, And 573 00:33:14,319 --> 00:33:17,839 because this is such a tremendous issue that we want 574 00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:20,200 to get into, we are going to save that for 575 00:33:20,279 --> 00:33:23,720 a future episode, So do stay tuned for an entirely 576 00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:28,119 separate episode on Leslie van Houghton seventy three, who was paroled. 577 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,319 She is one of only two surviving Manson killers who 578 00:33:32,359 --> 00:33:35,640 has received parole. There are still two others that are 579 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,400 in custody, and the others, cluding Manson, have since died 580 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,279 in prison. We are going to cover that particular sticky wicket. 581 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,240 When I put up an article on our Facebook page, 582 00:33:47,279 --> 00:33:50,519 we had any number of people who had a wide 583 00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:53,279 variety of opinions. So we are going to take a 584 00:33:53,319 --> 00:33:55,599 little bit of time talk about the things that y'all 585 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,799 have said to us on our Facebook page about Leslie 586 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,839 van Houghton's parole and we are going to weigh in 587 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,880 with our two cents as well, so do stay tuned 588 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,319 for that in an upcoming episode. That's going to do 589 00:34:07,319 --> 00:34:09,960 it for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you 590 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,760 so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 591 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 592 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,239 Another Dog Productions. 593 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,119 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 594 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 595 00:34:34,519 --> 00:34:36,599 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 596 00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:41,119 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 597 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,039 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 598 00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:47,760 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 599 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,719 Murders on Facebook. 600 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 601 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,119 Bill Thomas five six. 602 00:34:54,599 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. 603 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:12,639 Speaker 2: Hu