Speaker 1: Our first idea with this panel, which is who is
Speaker 1: a villain?
Speaker 2: Who is a bad guy in this situation of the apodos?
Speaker 2: How can we wrap our heads around why people made
Speaker 2: the choices that they make in the setting and the
Speaker 2: world that we're in.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and.
Speaker 3: Something that is really something that we really have to
Speaker 3: think about is when you don't have a future, or
Speaker 3: your future is really unknown, it's really it can be
Speaker 3: really hard to find a purpose that isn't just revenge
Speaker 3: based on all the different things that have happened, because
Speaker 3: you're gonna the apocalypse, so your bodies and brains are
Speaker 3: gonna be just trying to survive the whole time.
Speaker 4: And then the maybe you can have ethically involved trolley problem,
Speaker 4: which I think is the central idea that they created
Speaker 4: this game and into ut your apartment about a trollet department,
Speaker 4: have a whole bunch of people you could say, or
Speaker 4: one person, who do you say?
Speaker 1: What do you do?
Speaker 4: I think that's what created is popular. What makes it
Speaker 4: in the Dura debate since the first game, you've always
Speaker 4: asked it exact question, was Joel right or is Joel
Speaker 4: of philintagonist? It's a really powerful debate to have we
Speaker 4: have the advantage of having that debate from our position
Speaker 4: in society that more or less works. It's imperfect and
Speaker 4: full of problems, but it works. Their entire universe and
Speaker 4: the apocalypse. Like Britney saying their future is unknown, they
Speaker 4: could get infected in the next six seconds. They effected,
Speaker 4: could pop out of nowhere and all of a sudden,
Speaker 4: your distance is over. There's a really powerful lens to
Speaker 4: look at it to make these kinds of questions of
Speaker 4: how can someone possibly be.
Speaker 5: Expected to decide.
Speaker 1: So in thinking of the narrative of.
Speaker 2: I don't know morality like that's also part of the
Speaker 2: question too, right, which is in this world setting where so.
Speaker 1: Much violence is not just normalized.
Speaker 2: But required and also in some ways I'm sure like dignified, respected, idolized,
Speaker 2: that's all is something we have to call into question.
Speaker 2: We think about the lengths that Abby goes to, that
Speaker 2: Joel goes.
Speaker 1: To, that Melli goes to.
Speaker 2: Is we also have to take any consideration that, especially
Speaker 2: Brawby and Mellie, that they are people that were born
Speaker 2: within this context of like Hoover violence and they don't
Speaker 2: really know. I don't know about Abby, but definitely Ellie
Speaker 2: doesn't know before time, right, I mean that's part of
Speaker 2: the central character. She is born via kind of zombie
Speaker 2: bying situation, so she yeah, and so we think about
Speaker 2: it from that perspective. You know, I don't know, like
Speaker 2: the normalization of violence in the psychology, that there's a
Speaker 2: morality there that by us kind of judging any of
Speaker 2: these characters may based on the morality of our world,
Speaker 2: is doing them a major disservice. But we do that
Speaker 2: all the time, you know, when I work with real
Speaker 2: clients to the part of families where there's.
Speaker 1: A lot of violence, or there's a lot of criminal behavior,
Speaker 1: or there's a lot of aggression.
Speaker 2: You know, part of we have to take into consideration
Speaker 2: are those components and not just like I think having
Speaker 2: to the components is I think the head idea of this,
Speaker 2: which is people hate her, right.
Speaker 1: I think the second season she is the bad guy
Speaker 1: because she's so.
Speaker 2: Myopic in her views, like going after Joel, who we
Speaker 2: love because we know the whole story, right Ali, because
Speaker 2: we know.
Speaker 1: The whole story.
Speaker 2: But with someone like Abby, she's coming from a background
Speaker 2: where all.
Speaker 1: That stuff is very normalized.
Speaker 2: So one that's a part of her morality that we
Speaker 2: have to take into consideration, and then also two back,
Speaker 2: when you live in a world where there are so
Speaker 2: few connections, where there's so much scarcity when it comes
Speaker 2: to everything, but also.
Speaker 1: Your support system or a family who you love.
Speaker 2: And I think so her winning that revenge for her dad,
Speaker 2: for example, also connects to me with my Joel made
Speaker 2: the decision he made at the end of the first
Speaker 2: season with Ellie. You know Ellie is meaningful to him. Ellie,
Speaker 2: it is that scarcely mindset around your support system and
Speaker 2: people that matter to you and so, and that's not
Speaker 2: even talking about how Joel already lost the daughter and
Speaker 2: how is also probably having a trauma reaction in that
Speaker 2: moment where I don't even know how much of Joel
Speaker 2: is thinking. Yeah, Like, I think there's a part of
Speaker 2: Joel that punched forward in that moment, and that's what
Speaker 2: we're seeing in the same way that it's your Abby
Speaker 2: and Ellie also have that sort of like fight her
Speaker 2: warrior part that shows up and takes over in these
Speaker 2: moments where they are all at different times rampaging.
Speaker 1: For lack of a better way of putting it, Yeah.
Speaker 3: I feel like I don't think Joel could have made
Speaker 3: a d another decision.
Speaker 1: That's how I feel about it.
Speaker 3: I feel like, yeah, he he had finally had a
Speaker 3: purpose again, and he finally had the chance to be
Speaker 3: connected to someone else that you really cared about. And
Speaker 3: I feel like in that moment, in those moments where
Speaker 3: he cause he's off high like he is in his
Speaker 3: fight part, he's not taking ten seconds to have a
Speaker 3: thoughtful decision about am I gonna.
Speaker 1: Kill all these people?
Speaker 2: And you can't take ten seconds when you're in that
Speaker 2: kind of setting where you're going in like the exact
Speaker 2: I think where mumor all.
Speaker 1: Fight and white. You can't think very hard before someone's
Speaker 1: coming at you.
Speaker 2: You gonna find a math like it's all instantaneous responses exactly.
Speaker 3: And so I really feel like Joel, there wasn't something
Speaker 3: else that Joel could have done. I really I really
Speaker 3: believed that about Joel. Was it the right decision? I
Speaker 3: I think that was the only decision for Joel.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and.
Speaker 5: Exactly he was.
Speaker 4: He's shut down to it because the idea of connecting
Speaker 4: to another version is a burden.
Speaker 5: It's not until he sees her as a daughter that.
Speaker 4: Something changes and awakens in him and reactivates the burdens
Speaker 4: I played this game before I became a dad and
Speaker 4: I have.
Speaker 5: Two little girls. Uh so yeah, who.
Speaker 4: My my wife and I showed her this and she
Speaker 4: didn't play the game when I was like, first episode
Speaker 4: is straight up steam for seeing the game like, I'm
Speaker 4: just gonna warn you, you're gonna get wrecked.
Speaker 5: I guess gonna rerecor you, and then.
Speaker 4: Still wrecked me and thinking about it still rough, like
Speaker 4: especially being a dad and girls like I don't think
Speaker 4: Joel had another decision. I think Brandy is right and
Speaker 4: Handa is right. Du could Joel have done something different?
Speaker 4: Taking Joel in context, no, was he right nowtally?
Speaker 6: Morally? Of course not.
Speaker 4: However, who's to say there's no the The really in
Speaker 4: writing of this game is that it's a chance. It's
Speaker 4: a chance, but the only way to make this possible
Speaker 4: cure maybe is to destroy the hopes and get one
Speaker 4: chance to maybe save everybody.
Speaker 5: But how many medical.
Speaker 1: Trials have worked?
Speaker 5: How many who?
Speaker 2: Not?
Speaker 4: Nobody considers that factor into it, but we're led to
Speaker 4: that's the exam and that Triller problem. This couldn't save everybody,
Speaker 4: but Joel has to lose again in a way that
Speaker 4: he can't, and he went offline and his pipe part.
Speaker 4: His dad cart took him back on it had been
Speaker 4: him off and why he kept him Ellie walled up
Speaker 4: cause he's got this teenage daughter.
Speaker 5: He's seeing it.
Speaker 4: He like, nope, nope, nope, shut down, shut down, freeze
Speaker 4: that out. Can't do it this world.
Speaker 5: She's gonna die. I can't connect to that. No, say
Speaker 5: shut down and then go over the clicks.
Speaker 2: And then I also think, like thinking back in on
Speaker 2: that when someone has been shut down in a part
Speaker 2: of themselves. With Joel is the very vulnerable, soft, you know,
Speaker 2: squishy part of him, and so I think, yeah, once
Speaker 2: he reopens up to Ellie and decides like I'm.
Speaker 1: Gonna feel something for her.
Speaker 2: I think that just that of course plays a huge
Speaker 2: part in that decision where now I can't lose another daughter.
Speaker 2: I can't take that, I can't handle that. I don't
Speaker 2: know if he's I don't think he's thinking all that consciously,
Speaker 2: but I do think him opening up to her right
Speaker 2: before that also is a huge part in him going
Speaker 2: after it.
Speaker 1: And then I think it also carries into season too,
Speaker 1: where they're having so much trouble relationally.
Speaker 4: And.
Speaker 2: Part of that is like, yeah, she I think she
Speaker 2: is feeling well. Once she's suspicious, she can smell the.
Speaker 1: Whole shittle yas all over him.
Speaker 2: And then two, I can't imagine she doesn't feel tremendous
Speaker 2: weight on her about being Joel of God, you know
Speaker 2: they're not. They never really figured it out that dynamic.
Speaker 2: They weren't really supposed to have a dynamic. And then
Speaker 2: all of a sudden they're in the town, in a
Speaker 2: community like it's kind of regular Smagnore in a lot
Speaker 2: of waves that.
Speaker 1: She's never been exposed to.
Speaker 2: He hasn't been a part of in twenty some years,
Speaker 2: and I do feel like he kind of I don't
Speaker 2: think intentionally, but he does throw an expectation on her
Speaker 2: to be something for him that I.
Speaker 1: Do believe even though she wants it. It also stresses her ound.
Speaker 4: You got the personal stresses around, like she's had to
Speaker 4: wall off every work since losing her friend, and you
Speaker 4: realize that each chance she took brings her close to
Speaker 4: the people just because she wants her pain which is
Speaker 4: intall over her and takes her out of her survival
Speaker 4: most that she feels an't necessary, which is necessary to
Speaker 4: get their world to be locked in died in suspicious
Speaker 4: because the next person made view your assets that they
Speaker 4: needed to survive. And at that point, I if we
Speaker 4: all take an honest look at ourselves, how long would
Speaker 4: you go hungry before you stole fo Yeah, I don't
Speaker 4: even take your head.
Speaker 2: Not long?
Speaker 4: Right for those of their parents, how long are your
Speaker 4: children gonna go hungry before you start making some extreme
Speaker 4: decisions finding a different place in your head to go to?
Speaker 5: I know, I mean it's not long those little girls,
Speaker 5: Bryan hungry? Sorry about your real survivor?
Speaker 6: Sorry, like a holler by, you have to come a
Speaker 6: little closer to us.
Speaker 1: And there's a mic in the back are here?
Speaker 5: The question about Bill and Frans sol.
Speaker 1: Oh, Bill and Frank?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, cause it shows also a big topic of
Speaker 2: we're not supposed to be by ourselves, right, we need
Speaker 2: other people, whether we like it or not, whether we
Speaker 2: want to or not. And and also we get very
Speaker 2: protective around that and and shut down and act stand offish,
Speaker 2: and well is it Bill or Frank who's the one
Speaker 2: that loves the house? O? Bill, He's like a great
Speaker 2: example of being that, like, I don't need anybody, And
Speaker 2: I think we see that in his pre apocalypse time too,
Speaker 2: like that's a that is a protective part of him,
Speaker 2: but he's very comfortable and that's a persona that he's
Speaker 2: worked up to, and so I do so like I
Speaker 2: think those show in all, all in all, does a
Speaker 2: really good job of showing how people just protect themselves
Speaker 2: against like loneliness, against wanting things that they That's a
Speaker 2: big part of this too, is how can you let
Speaker 2: yourself want things in this kind of scenario, this kind
Speaker 2: of setting. And then if you can't want things, if
Speaker 2: you can't hope, if you can't dream, then why not
Speaker 2: follow your impulses?
Speaker 1: Why not take revenge?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 1: Like what am I worried about getting get environment at
Speaker 1: my job because I want a murder.
Speaker 2: Rampage about like what not in finding a partner, having kids?
Speaker 2: Like there's so little that you can hold on to
Speaker 2: in this world that something like revenge and going full
Speaker 2: loan into that does give you purpose, does give you
Speaker 2: a sense of self and identity. It's not a healthy one, right,
Speaker 2: but I think like that's the course, especially the second season,
Speaker 2: is just training that identity from Joel to Adding to
Speaker 2: La And where does it stop.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it will stop the situation like
Speaker 1: this where there aren't really any.
Speaker 2: Existential consequences or like hope consequences.
Speaker 1: Like dream future planning consequences to do making those choices.
Speaker 2: The canny can you build up like down there there
Speaker 2: there you have an area.
Speaker 5: In society whose incidents and.
Speaker 7: That means in ass how does the narratives your flu
Speaker 7: societies and own biases and comes in traditional hero And
Speaker 7: then I.
Speaker 5: Think it does a brilliant job of that.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 4: The Last of Us was my favorite game ever until
Speaker 4: Lessons two came out. You know a lot of people
Speaker 4: got mad because.
Speaker 5: They you know, they frinched Gol, like, how there are
Speaker 5: you rich? See?
Speaker 4: Uh, the male protagonist character that everybody's attached.
Speaker 5: To, how dare you? The neck bears got really angry.
Speaker 4: But it was really in writing to open up what
Speaker 4: the story was really about, which was watching.
Speaker 5: Ellie's true Elliot was.
Speaker 4: Always your character, not job, and watching that dynamic flip
Speaker 4: where you force the audience to flip perspective. You would
Speaker 4: in the game you would have to play as Abby
Speaker 4: for maybe sixty percent of the game, so you don't
Speaker 4: just get the story with one character. You have to
Speaker 4: explore the perspectives of all sides of it. And it
Speaker 4: is powerful to realize that just because one person sees
Speaker 4: something one way, it doesn't meet the other does. And uh,
Speaker 4: even some therapies for one group therapy in particular, they
Speaker 4: mentioned our last panel psychodone is kind of its cost
Speaker 4: the time a little bit.
Speaker 5: But they have one.
Speaker 4: Exercise where they literally have you sit in a groupment
Speaker 4: and you picked out the person who most reminds you
Speaker 4: of the antagonist of the sea. But then the director
Speaker 4: the areas will make you flip, so you have to
Speaker 4: play from their perspective, so you connect and empathize with
Speaker 4: whatever was that creating that person's reactions. In order to
Speaker 4: reproduce it in yourself, must advertize with so flipping that
Speaker 4: dynamic is is huge and it's powerful.
Speaker 5: I'm excited what they're gonna do with is the show?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's a I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's a be a challenge to us of how honestly
Speaker 2: ecocentric it can be. Like that's a lot of part
Speaker 2: of our biasses as well, in that I know why
Speaker 2: I'm doing what I'm doing, so I must I have.
Speaker 1: A good reason.
Speaker 2: It's like when I A good example of this on
Speaker 2: like Psycone one is when you're driving a traffic I.
Speaker 5: Know why I'm cutting people off because I'm late, and
Speaker 5: I have good.
Speaker 2: Persons to be active like a jerk when i'm driving,
Speaker 2: But you're coming off, how dare you? It's because you're
Speaker 2: a bad person. It's because you don't think about other people,
Speaker 2: because I don't know why they're doing what they're really
Speaker 2: but I know why I am. And so with this too,
Speaker 2: I it ch challenges that highest we can have from
Speaker 2: like an US than ego centric perspective.
Speaker 1: Well, I know why I'm killing everybody. I don't know
Speaker 1: why Joel's killing everybody, but I can't kill everybody. And
Speaker 1: I think actually, what says a lot about maybe the fact.
Speaker 2: That Joel's in therapy in season two and he has
Speaker 2: worked on a lot of stuff, is that when he
Speaker 2: spoiler does in the very beginning of season two, he
Speaker 2: is inviting it right, like he's he kind of has
Speaker 2: this face of like it finally caught me, like he
Speaker 2: recognizes that he is not the hero, but not in
Speaker 2: some ways it's very self deprecating.
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of ways it's just him
Speaker 1: being very honest, which is I am the.
Speaker 2: Villain of a lot of people's stories, and so this
Speaker 2: girl coming after me and killing me is not She's
Speaker 2: not wrong. I hate obviously, I don't want to happen
Speaker 2: from Ellie, And I think what hurts Ellie and I
Speaker 2: think you're about to talk about, Hannah, is that Ellie
Speaker 2: is also a teenager, which just pumps up the egocentricism
Speaker 2: of I'm right, you're wrong, that person's bad, that person's
Speaker 2: not bad. Like if anyone knows any teenagers, or if
Speaker 2: you've ever been a teenager, and we all know how
Speaker 2: we can get very rigid and very binary about everything.
Speaker 2: I think we see that, like in the social media
Speaker 2: of like how on TikTok everyone has an opinion, everyone's
Speaker 2: like thiring morally on her high horse. And I do
Speaker 2: think that's an evolution of this idea that I know
Speaker 2: why I'm doing it, you know, and I'm gonna judge
Speaker 2: you because you're doing someone differently instead of trying to
Speaker 2: be in.
Speaker 1: Their own shoes.
Speaker 3: But I don't know if you wanna talk about yeah, La, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I was just gonna say that bringing up that she's
Speaker 3: a teenager also not just the rigidity, but also the
Speaker 3: black and white picking, which is pretty similar. But really
Speaker 3: we're really seeing the teenage part of Eli in most
Speaker 3: of the second season, Like I really feel like there
Speaker 3: wasn't Ali didn't really have that much gross in the
Speaker 3: second season. She really is stuck in this. Abby is
Speaker 3: the villain. Abby is the person that I have to
Speaker 3: get to real mad or what I in my grief.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, instead of being instead of being sad and
Speaker 3: grieving who I lost, I am going after someone else
Speaker 3: and that's all that matters, and that's all that I
Speaker 3: can focus on because I think also in another way,
Speaker 3: with Ellie.
Speaker 1: Sh that's what she saw Joel do.
Speaker 3: So also why would we expect that Ellie is not
Speaker 3: gonna go after go after something in the same way
Speaker 3: that she saw.
Speaker 2: Joel do it.
Speaker 1: And in some way that's a way for her to
Speaker 1: feeling even close closer than him and aligned with Joel,
Speaker 1: is that this is I'm gonna.
Speaker 2: Attack just the way that Joel would because I'm Joel's
Speaker 2: daughter and it's almost like this and honor in him
Speaker 2: by acting like him, and then also by taking revenge
Speaker 2: in his name and not really thinking it all the
Speaker 2: way through, Like I think you do see her for
Speaker 2: me to be not just the role thing, but also
Speaker 2: falling in love, like getting her love reciprocated by her
Speaker 2: best friend. All that stuff's going on, Like she's in
Speaker 2: the moment and and she's not really thinking at all
Speaker 2: until we see the very end when she spoiler again
Speaker 2: kills that character that's pregnant. I think that's something when
Speaker 2: you see what we call him the viz like an
Speaker 2: ego death kind of rock bottom moment where she's like,
Speaker 2: maybe I maybe I am also but back, like this
Speaker 2: is starting to hit a wall where it's not fitting
Speaker 2: the story of creating in my head about who I am,
Speaker 2: about why I'm doing this, and it's really obviously challenges her.
Speaker 2: We see her kind of have and moves from breakdown
Speaker 2: in that moment because she is realizing the thing that's
Speaker 2: hard for us to realize, which is that, oh, maybe
Speaker 2: this is more complicated than I thought it was, which
Speaker 2: is really hard, Like once again for like a teenager
Speaker 2: to be is able to grass depending on their maturity love.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like Ellie raised in the military thing. I
Speaker 1: don't know how it all she.
Speaker 4: Is habby Ellie Sorry, ELA's twenty two, Sorry I met Eli, Sorry,
Speaker 4: Ely's twenty two, eh.
Speaker 1: I's nineteen or sixteen?
Speaker 5: Oh, Ellie, it's twenty two.
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, do you have a question?
Speaker 7: Yes's you see what's in Holly Operator.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: The therapy scene in the first episode of sixty two
Speaker 2: is wild.
Speaker 1: I mean, one says she's drove, which is kind of
Speaker 1: nuts I can imagine, but.
Speaker 2: Also the cluster mess that is the dual relationship idea.
Speaker 2: So in therapy, one of the ethical ten commandments is
Speaker 2: like dual relationships, like I can't be your friend and
Speaker 2: your therapist or your like neighbor and therapist, except for
Speaker 2: in situations like this, like they's able to use in school.
Speaker 2: It's like if you're in a small town and you're
Speaker 2: the only therapist, you might not be able to avoid
Speaker 2: make someone's name working their therapist. So there's some ep
Speaker 2: ethical exceptions to that, and I think it would probify
Speaker 2: if you take up the drinking part of it and
Speaker 2: all the other parts them having kind of like a
Speaker 2: messier dim It makes sense from that.
Speaker 4: Perspective you got an ethical boundaries, wouldn't reply because at
Speaker 4: the small town or other and be bhood and resource.
Speaker 5: But It's Gales.
Speaker 4: Scenes were amazing about it, and I really liked her
Speaker 4: modeling how sitting with Joel and telling him the hard
Speaker 4: truth annoying flipping. The acting was brilliant, really a brilliancause
Speaker 4: she was like, there, I said, it was hard, I'm
Speaker 4: hate look what I did.
Speaker 2: She just.
Speaker 4: Flipped right back, got it in front of the This
Speaker 4: is what happens when you say the hard thing. Nothing
Speaker 4: what happened, but Joe can't tolerate it even then that
Speaker 4: Joel tells the truth and you can see he's shutting down,
Speaker 4: shutting down, shutting down, yep, which is exactly what I
Speaker 4: WI am like if we do it is not ready
Speaker 4: to share that momen know me what he knows. The
Speaker 4: shame and guilty carriers that that part of him that
Speaker 4: wanted to refect the daughter showed up, and also they
Speaker 4: doomed everyone.
Speaker 5: That's kind of a lot. It's a lot to carry it.
Speaker 5: He doesn't even tell Elliot that year until his last
Speaker 5: night of her, but seeing her call Joe out and see.
Speaker 8: Who I thought?
Speaker 4: That was a brilliantly redual pair of his character. With
Speaker 4: the added publications of I trade therapy.
Speaker 2: For me in this and which only movie well, and
Speaker 2: also the dual relationship, which is I am your therapist
Speaker 2: and I wanted to fold my uncle.
Speaker 1: Detachment, and also you killed my husband.
Speaker 2: And even though I and she does a great job
Speaker 2: of naming mat like she's really trying.
Speaker 1: I can see where hers as is a therapist, is really.
Speaker 2: Trying to stay ethical in a wild, wild wild context.
Speaker 1: And maybe her drinking is her trying to.
Speaker 2: Be duel, Like I'm gonna go out as a freak
Speaker 2: on this guy that I see today, So maybe if
Speaker 2: I take.
Speaker 1: A little end job, I won't be a raging viewer
Speaker 1: when I see him. And how ess actually with.
Speaker 2: Joel in the back that he operates from such a
Speaker 2: place of shame it is, it is like an impossible
Speaker 2: situation that they're in together, Like I think they would
Speaker 2: do it, Like if you're saying men like best as
Speaker 2: they can considering living in resource, but to have to
Speaker 2: event sit in front of me and vulnerable in front
Speaker 2: of your therapist that you know also might have me
Speaker 2: with you for the same reason that you feel bad
Speaker 2: about yourself and the things I have to work on,
Speaker 2: Like that's it impossible, That's such an impossible circumstance.
Speaker 1: Any think she tries having it and as good as
Speaker 1: you can, and.
Speaker 2: You probably would have to name more on your own
Speaker 2: self just close a lot more of your emotions maybe
Speaker 2: in that space, like it would be a mess here
Speaker 2: dynamic because you couldn't be as detached and as cool
Speaker 2: and calm and collected and unbiased.
Speaker 1: You just can't. And so her naming it was good
Speaker 1: and it.
Speaker 2: Was hard a lot because I was like, Oh, I
Speaker 2: don't know how you've been doing.
Speaker 3: Differently about necessarily Yeah, I feel like it would be
Speaker 3: wild to be a Gale's shoes, like when I like
Speaker 3: even the idea of her being a therapist during that time, and.
Speaker 1: Just think, And it made me think a little bit about.
Speaker 3: The pandemic and what it was like to be a
Speaker 3: therapist during the pandemic when you're experiencing the same things
Speaker 3: as your clients are experiencing, And how my relationship changed
Speaker 3: with some of my clients in a good way, not
Speaker 3: in a bad way, but it would changed. It changed
Speaker 3: because they could see my apartment. It changed because we
Speaker 3: were most sad about the same thing. Like it was
Speaker 3: a little bit it was a little bit different in
Speaker 3: a and but also it was a good way to
Speaker 3: have a connection. So I don't even know if I
Speaker 3: what I would do. I don't even know if I
Speaker 3: would tell anybody I was a therapist, like, like just
Speaker 3: because I feel like I really don't. Yeah, it would
Speaker 3: just be wild.
Speaker 1: It would be wild.
Speaker 3: I think eventually I'd want to help people just because
Speaker 3: that's who I am. But but yeah, that was just
Speaker 3: something I wanted to burn out.
Speaker 5: And it's the skill you're having the moorsal mee. So
Speaker 5: you're gonna keep doing it in front of a way
Speaker 5: to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I s getting to be during the strong time,
Speaker 2: so it's probably like sign up, sign up.
Speaker 5: But then I how we got more qustions?
Speaker 8: Yeah, a lot.
Speaker 1: The Free construt SA said, how did the new agreements
Speaker 1: both been constructive and unimating force? I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: a I'm thinking, I promise.
Speaker 4: I think they show revisit that absolutely a destructive force,
Speaker 4: but they also show it as the internal connection to
Speaker 4: a love lost in a very powerful real way, or
Speaker 4: where they're surrounded so much. Why lost and the only
Speaker 4: things that ground you back to your humanity are the
Speaker 4: connections to the things that make you feel like you
Speaker 4: and in extreme circumstances like wars or other things, whether
Speaker 4: people carry around the pictures of their loved one or
Speaker 4: their girlfriend or whoever, knowing that there is somewhere for
Speaker 4: me to find my way back to myself. It's only
Speaker 4: again the best record stories like or the readings, for example,
Speaker 4: where we get an example of someone going back and
Speaker 4: realizing that.
Speaker 5: Not only is home not the same because life we
Speaker 5: don't about you, but you're not the same.
Speaker 4: And seeing the impact that proto was amazing, but also
Speaker 4: seeing in this story that people, even in the sucustance,
Speaker 4: they don't nothing is going back to.
Speaker 5: Be the same. Ever again, they still keep connections cause
Speaker 5: the what they lost.
Speaker 4: Joe KEEPS's watch, but Eli pieps watched. Ellie keeps Joey's gone,
Speaker 4: Elias stays connected to Joel, Joe Stay's connected to his daughter.
Speaker 4: Joel and his brother's stay connected. People still get married
Speaker 4: Bill and Frankville are other questions, like we see oils
Speaker 4: of examples of people staying connected to humanity.
Speaker 5: The story is called Elasted the Boss for a.
Speaker 2: Reason, and I say agree, I think that's also where
Speaker 2: the real I don't know, like are we going on
Speaker 2: ram pages because we don't wanna feel our agree? So
Speaker 2: if I have an active mission, I don't have to.
Speaker 2: I don't have time to be sad kind of have
Speaker 2: the space to be sad. I get to just pop
Speaker 2: off and that's something I can focus on, which is why,
Speaker 2: like I think you do see those narratives continuing cause
Speaker 2: people like.
Speaker 1: People now don't know how to agree.
Speaker 2: You probably can you imagine that even an art start right,
Speaker 2: it's like ongoing traumatic grief and being able to like absorb.
Speaker 1: That a whole time.
Speaker 2: Like, so people can't do that in the best of
Speaker 2: circumstances a lot of a lot a lot of the time,
Speaker 2: and so in this one, I.
Speaker 1: Don't even know it. Bed fascinating.
Speaker 2: Like generations, if like their generations of this society continue,
Speaker 2: what they might start to do to grief in terms
Speaker 2: of rituals uh leaning ceremony, Like their relationship to grief
Speaker 2: is gonna have to be you really change because so
Speaker 2: much of their society.
Speaker 1: Now is dictated by grief and grieving the life that was,
Speaker 1: the life that will believe all that stuff?
Speaker 5: Question, Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Won't.
Speaker 5: I don't care since when I'll go I'll go close.
Speaker 8: I mean, so you know that ear and stuff in
Speaker 8: se game early? Are you going, sous most?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Where else?
Speaker 3: I uh, she was gone.
Speaker 5: Fo ah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Where was?
Speaker 5: I feel like the most care and you're you're interest.
Speaker 2: A fool.
Speaker 1: Say the last part again, m fool fool. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm having a hard time with the last part.
Speaker 5: The uh uh the dry right, Elli bikes your brothers
Speaker 5: all the time?
Speaker 1: First that I be I kind of have a one
Speaker 1: of the non missions.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you got any of what you're interesting in the game.
Speaker 4: What the show is probably gonna take you no seasons
Speaker 4: to get to, right, at least the long game is
Speaker 4: see you see a lot more growth out of Aby
Speaker 4: in the game than you do have. It takes a
Speaker 4: long time, and even at the end, I don't know
Speaker 4: that Allie until the beach team. Maybe after they have
Speaker 4: their fight. Yeah, I don't even in school and.
Speaker 9: He s at moment you can find m d right
Speaker 9: and going home and finding Deva out there, yeah, maybe.
Speaker 5: Alone the biggest year's.
Speaker 4: Right, I think if I'm remembering that the game, right,
Speaker 4: was it is it left that picks up Abby or
Speaker 4: does it every w you Camembert right, that's right, cause
Speaker 4: if the growth is Abby's trying to get to the left.
Speaker 5: It's also there with her right. Yeah, so you see
Speaker 5: love grows.
Speaker 4: So they don't their mirror images of each other, but
Speaker 4: they're moving in the opposite directions.
Speaker 5: Kind of like Bill and Joel, like they started kind
Speaker 5: of the.
Speaker 4: Same places where they go in totally different directions. This
Speaker 4: game is full of mirrors of the people having the
Speaker 4: opportunity to look at how you'll like you go if
Speaker 4: you like connection back and Abbie, let's go up her
Speaker 4: and stops trying to fight Ellie long again. I don't
Speaker 4: know the start of the start of the game maybe,
Speaker 4: but she's being hunted by Ellie now who does not
Speaker 4: grow until that fight at the beach in Santa Mounta
Speaker 4: are releases. It's a really powerful story to look at
Speaker 4: that example. It's a great point that they are total
Speaker 4: mirrors of each other. You're seeing that poison that the raging.
Speaker 1: Comes you, will you have a goot? Spend more minutes?
Speaker 2: And there are any other questions I just wanna make
Speaker 2: sure maybe rooms anywhere s thoughts or questions, Okay, I
Speaker 2: don't know, trying to think if there are any other
Speaker 2: points wanted to articulate.
Speaker 1: There's I want to say about grief.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, there was something that I wanted to say
Speaker 3: more about grief. I think something else that we see
Speaker 3: in a world like this is that grief doesn't feel
Speaker 3: like action, anger, revenge.
Speaker 1: That feels like action, That feels like something that I
Speaker 1: can do.
Speaker 3: And I think when people are so shut down, it's
Speaker 3: so overwhelmed, they'll lean into something that feels like, at
Speaker 3: least I'm doing something about this. At least I'm fighting.
Speaker 3: At least I'm doing something. And so I think that's
Speaker 3: another way that people pull back from their grief and
Speaker 3: go into more action brand and things that they're doing.
Speaker 3: Like I'll give you an example from a client that
Speaker 3: I've had before.
Speaker 1: So I have couples, right, So I work with couples
Speaker 1: and families.
Speaker 3: I have a couple people that will, after maybe like
Speaker 3: five or six sessions, let's send me an email and
Speaker 3: say they're just gonna date each other for a little while.
Speaker 3: They're not gonna do couples that are banning Moore. They're
Speaker 3: just gonna date them. They're gonna date each.
Speaker 5: Other for a little while.
Speaker 3: And that's when those examples of they can't be in it.
Speaker 3: They're not ready to be in it, they're not ready
Speaker 3: to look at the things they have to look at.
Speaker 3: Because again, like I said in the Thunderbolts panels that
Speaker 3: we did earlier.
Speaker 1: The only way to trauma is through.
Speaker 2: And so wanted to do on the dating is like
Speaker 2: a restart act oriented And I also say too, and
Speaker 2: you know, I kind of like a get a moment
Speaker 2: from watching traina side oh so ready too that I
Speaker 2: think is very unclear about maybe even talking about the
Speaker 2: Abby thing and only thing too is how much we
Speaker 2: romanticize the idea of closure. That's something I see all
Speaker 2: the time working with regular stringular people as clients, and
Speaker 2: how we idealize and romanticize this idea of a closure.
Speaker 2: Once I do this thing, once I kill Jewel, I
Speaker 2: won't feel like the sinner. And I think for even
Speaker 2: like someone like Abby Ellie's that the next wave is
Speaker 2: kind of almost trauma with another and this kind of
Speaker 2: next existential.
Speaker 1: Breakdown is, oh, I did this thing that I've put
Speaker 1: all my time and.
Speaker 2: Energy in and I don't necessarily feel any different or
Speaker 2: better or the feelings of having or feel here or
Speaker 2: maybe now that the mission is over all I have less.
Speaker 1: Now are the ways that I feel.
Speaker 2: And something I try to encourage everyone I work with
Speaker 2: and also myself is the sneaky seduction, the temptation of
Speaker 2: this idea of closure and that I just have to
Speaker 2: do this thing, or I have to have this talk
Speaker 2: with my ex, or I have to finally have this
Speaker 2: out with my dad. And then once I do that thing,
Speaker 2: I will just oo. I'll mean light is a federal
Speaker 2: I'll have no problem. So I'll was totally self factualized.
Speaker 2: Then I could move on with my life because also
Speaker 2: I think what is sad about the LA thing, for example,
Speaker 2: and like relations with Dina, the fact that DNA is.
Speaker 1: Pregnant, is that there is.
Speaker 2: Another patch to take and the all and like build
Speaker 2: a life that is positive, that could need something to
Speaker 2: her and that has the future right and the story
Speaker 2: that it seems like Elie has is I can't start.
Speaker 1: That life until I've closed this chapter.
Speaker 2: Until I've killed all people I gotta kill, and I
Speaker 2: work with people have been the same idea with themselves
Speaker 2: all the time.
Speaker 1: If I can't, I can't move forward until this thing
Speaker 1: has happened.
Speaker 2: And how much that limits our life Honestly, you can
Speaker 2: limits our perspective. And then also it keeps us it
Speaker 2: keeps our development in the hands of usually other people,
Speaker 2: and other things like we're not empowering ourselves, like I
Speaker 2: can make a choice no matter what. And with someone
Speaker 2: in like Ella's positions and adding too, like I can
Speaker 2: only feel this way as I get this certain reaction
Speaker 2: or this certain oundcom that and bovet other people and
Speaker 2: all the delomers who actually aren't in my control. And
Speaker 2: how disempowering that is, even in these situations where it
Speaker 2: doesn't look as powering because they're making so much, so
Speaker 2: many choices, it makings to be acting and being so
Speaker 2: like powerful and dangerous and whatever it's it like. It
Speaker 2: is a Jefson, It is a commersonal and ideas that.
Speaker 4: I really encourage your people to sit up and not
Speaker 4: be able to stop the universe. The universe continues to
Speaker 4: move on and the innutrians of all times. Your story
Speaker 4: is not the most to work onstor but it's really
Speaker 4: hard to tell yourself that I feel this way so
Speaker 4: I deserve justice.
Speaker 5: But the way this story shows all the layers and
Speaker 5: complications and the costs of limiting your focus to that.
Speaker 4: I love, love, love to talk back at again because
Speaker 4: literally director understood the uh assign what she was saying.
Speaker 5: We show at Ella every opportunity.
Speaker 4: Ellie has an opportunity to take an offering from this
Speaker 4: path and have a better life like we see the
Speaker 4: Bill and Frank, like we see being a offering from
Speaker 4: over and over again. I love being scared of her,
Speaker 4: but she's such an import of oil. It continuing to
Speaker 4: like I'll respond to this darkness, but it's not going
Speaker 4: to take you. And you see it over and over
Speaker 4: and my Jo's brother's name is maybe you.
Speaker 1: No, I'm king Tommy Tony Tony to thank you Tommy.
Speaker 4: You see, Tony and his wife were like, it's boring
Speaker 4: that darkness the way like, but we can't keep doing this,
Speaker 4: like we have to just set our mission and hold
Speaker 4: to it that it's to move like ful, all.
Speaker 5: These bad things happen are happening all the time. I
Speaker 5: don't know which one's works.
Speaker 4: Things would neither do nor bad, but thinking makes them so.
Speaker 4: It's remains true to see if in the story over
Speaker 4: and over that if you march, you lost in your harea,
Speaker 4: her will get stuck in a mold.
Speaker 5: It doesn't suit you to do and suit at that moment,
Speaker 5: but if you don't recognize the moment has changed you.
Speaker 2: To say stuff, yeah, even just recognizing that we always
Speaker 2: can make the choice to move on, like the objective
Speaker 2: choice like that as the bull it's not as easy
Speaker 2: as like I'm just gonna move on, cause we think
Speaker 2: that moving on is I won't have these feelings and
Speaker 2: or I won't have this trauma and that's like going
Speaker 2: back to the closure I do. But it's insensing like
Speaker 2: I can act as if I'm moving on and what
Speaker 2: does that look like?
Speaker 1: And you're like, you're saying, like do you not? In
Speaker 1: the second season, she's.
Speaker 2: Getting all these opportunities to go different around even Jesse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesse's like the active parts of the news.
Speaker 2: Like we don't have to do this, like you can
Speaker 2: just I don't know, do something else. And she's like, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I can't move on from this. And it's a sad
Speaker 2: thing to realize, like we all can have the opportunity
Speaker 2: to like choose to may getive a choice, choose to
Speaker 2: move on and choose to work on why we feel
Speaker 2: like we can't.
Speaker 1: So we only have I think a few more minutes.
Speaker 1: Any other last points you want to make, any other last.
Speaker 4: Questions, Let's say a short answer, what's your life, Benjamin?
Speaker 1: How dare you?
Speaker 2: I think if I want anyone to come boys from
Speaker 2: this is that I don't think there is a writer.
Speaker 5: It's their heads. Did you ever about apples? Is the
Speaker 5: people you all? In context? What's your writers? A different class?
Speaker 5: Was your right in order context? But think it's one
Speaker 5: of those in larger contexts such a complicated Russian less
Speaker 5: and such a mean you're.
Speaker 1: In the property. Well, if you enjoyed what you heard today,
Speaker 1: Like I said, we have.
Speaker 2: A podcast, Comfort Psychology, you can fight us anywhere Spotify,
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts anywhere. And we've been going on how we're
Speaker 2: on our if season or were We just released an
Speaker 2: episode on Big Fish, Moonstruck, Thunderbolts like the cover, Like
Speaker 2: every genre, we don't just do superhero fakes.
Speaker 1: We don't just do sci fi stuff.
Speaker 5: We do everything.
Speaker 1: And so if you found this interesting and you wanna
Speaker 1: learn more, please find us everywhere.
Speaker 2: We're also on Instagram, Facebook, and take tack apop from
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Speaker 2: pen w the trough or capstack or capstick, especially if
Speaker 2: you ask a question you want to reward you.
Speaker 1: Alright, thank you everyone for showing us. Maybe