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Speaker 1: This is Pet Life Radio. Let's talk pets. Welcome to

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aquarium Mania.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, doctor Royanong, speaking to you from the

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University of Florida IFIs Tropical Lacaculture Laboratory.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Fish Medicine now mainstream became a recognized veterinary specialty through

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the American Veterinary Medical Association in twenty twenty three, But

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many decades ago, a few vets treated petfish and hobbyists

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were on their own.

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Speaker 3: My guest today, Doctor Greg Lubar was one.

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Speaker 2: Of those vets, A foremost pioneer of aquarium fish medicine

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and both an award winning veterinarian and author. Greg is

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a professor at North Carolina State University and has been

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my mentor and good friends.

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Speaker 3: Since the eighties.

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Speaker 2: Join us as Greg looks back on the early days

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and forward to the future of phish medicine.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back after these messages.

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Speaker 4: Take a bite out of your competition, advertise your business

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with an ad in Petlife Radio podcasts and radio shows.

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large and reaches more pet parents and pet lovers than

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Life Radio podcasts are available on all major podcast platforms,

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visit petlife radio dot com slash advertised Today, Let's talk

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pets on petlifradio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Aquarium Manion Life Radio. My guest today

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is doctor Greg Lubart, world renowned aquatic and exotic veterinarian, professor, researcher,

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and author.

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Speaker 3: Hey Greg, Hey Roy, how's it going good? Good?

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Speaker 2: I kind of gave a little bit of a info

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on how great you were in my intro earlier, but

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we're going to kind of delve into all that a

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little bit more. But before that, I wanted to get

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a little personal, as I always do, talk a little

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bit about.

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Speaker 3: Your early years.

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Speaker 2: Sure, so, what and who were some of your childhood

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influences that got you interested in nature and aquatics?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I guess it was really my parents and my brothers,

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my family. We spent from the time I was five

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until I was in high school we spent part or

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most of every summer in Maine vacationing. I was really lucky.

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My dad was a physician and researcher steroid chemists, so

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for about fifteen years he was on NSF funding, which

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meant in the summer he could take off. And so

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my brothers and I I'm oldest of four, we were

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immersed in nature from an early age. It was mostly

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in the mountains of Maine, but also once in a

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while at the coast, and I was really drawn to

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the marine environment. I think that is the big main

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influencing factor on my interest in nature and animals. And

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we weren't dog people, or we had a pet cat,

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and I had a pet guinea pig, And when those

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animals went to the veterinarian that made a big impact

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on me too.

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Speaker 2: But you took such good care of them that they

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probably didn't go that often.

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Speaker 3: I as soon.

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Speaker 5: Oh, yeah, it was one hundred percent preventive care if

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that included being hit by a car.

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Speaker 2: So now tell us about your very first fish and

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your very first aquarium.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so that's a little bit of a interesting topic.

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I'm not a hobbyist, and when I was, you know,

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probably eight or nine. I remember my mom got me

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a quarry catfish and I had a Corey cat living

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in a goldfish bowl for a while. I don't think

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it was long. It was longer than a day and

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less than a year. We had a few goldfish. But

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I was never a hobbyist. I didn't keep aquariums. I

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didn't raise fish, and I didn't have my own aquarium

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until I was in veterinary school, and even then the

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pretty modest couple fifteen gallon tanks. And I don't have

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aquariums now. I have plenty of fish contact at work.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, understandable.

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Speaker 2: So with that said, do you remember anything Did you

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ever visit any aquarium stores back in the day or

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when your mom was getting you these fish? Do you

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remember anything at all about how fish keeping was back then?

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Speaker 5: I do. I do. So this would have been in

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the sixties, late sixties, so there weren't any chain pet stores.

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I think there was Doctor's Pet which was kind of

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a chain, but there weren't the large stores that they

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are now, like the superstores. And I remember I grew

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up in a town called Willingboro, New Jersey. It's a

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Philadelphia suburb and sort of a bedroom community of Philadelphia,

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and we had a mall called the Plaza, the Willingboro Plaza,

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and my brothers and I would go every Saturday. My

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mom would give us each a buck. Fifty cents was

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the movie and popcorn, and then the rest we would

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use at the mall for candy and things. But there

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was a pet store, and we always went to the

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pet store and looked at the fish and looked at

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the mice and the birds, and I just remember that

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pet stores were kind of what we call mom and

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pop back then. And even when I was in veterinary

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school in the mid to late eighties, I worked at

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a little pet store in West Philadelphia after school and

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on weekends. And that was also a small, privately owned

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pet store, but the owner was really good about all

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in and all out management and keeping fish healthy.

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Speaker 3: So let's move forward a little bit. Now. You obviously

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went to college.

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Speaker 2: What did you study there and were there any experiences

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during those years that influenced you.

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Speaker 3: Kind of on the path that you ended up taking.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I was a biology major. I got a

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BA in biology from Gettysburg College nineteen eighty one, and

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really it was I wasn't the greatest student to start

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out with, I was barely barely hovering above academic probation.

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I never did dip into that area, but I could

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see it from where I was, and I got more

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serious about school. I wanted to be a veterinarian. I

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knew I needed to kind of get my academic ducks

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in a row, and I did slowly. But it was

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really my invertebrate zoology course with doctor Robert Barnes that

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I think it's the pivotal moment in my career. It

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changed things completely for me because up until the fall

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of my senior year, I was, you know, I was

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getting by, I was doing better, but nothing had really

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kind of lit my fire like invert zo And for

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the first time in college, I was the student at

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the top of the class. First and only time, I'll say,

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And in those days, Roy they would post your name

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and your grade out on a bulletin board with your

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Social Security number for everybody to see. So I knew

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I was at the top. I was at the top

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because I loved it. I loved the professor, the way

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he taught, I loved the subject matter.

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Speaker 3: Barnes is a god, so that's amazing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and he taught at Gettysburg for probably forty years,

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and it really changed my life. I went to the

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Duke Marine Lab with him on a field trip with

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a class. I went to Bermuda with a class. And

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then that all happened when I was applying to veterinary school.

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So my backup plan was to go to graduate school

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and study marine biology, and that's what I did, and

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my masters was focused on marine invertebrates and specifically a

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little polykeep worm. But it was about that time, so

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this would have been the early eighties, forty some years

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ago that I saw fish as kind of an untapped

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area of the profession. I volunteered at the New England

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Aquarium while I was in Boston, and I learned a

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scuba dive, and even though I've never had an ichthyology class,

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I recognized fish as been pretty cool. And then when

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I was in VET school and started working at the

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pet store, mainly to learn more about aquariology.

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Speaker 3: So key worms and then fish.

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Speaker 2: Now you mentioned earlier, I guess that you had decided

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to become a VET. Sounds like maybe grade school, is

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that right, or let's go so.

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Speaker 5: I really think when I was fourteen, I started volunteering

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for a local veterinarian named doctor Bookman, and so between

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fourteen and sixteen I volunteered, and when I was sixteen

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he hired me. So for three all through high school,

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I worked afternoons and on weekends at his clinic as

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a We're talking almost fifty years ago and things were different.

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So I would take out the trash, hold dogs, assistant surgery,

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do fecals, whatever needed to be done.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome, now, just really briefly, I guess what were

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you looking at with that polykeep? I think we talked

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about this here your major professor. I ended up taking

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a class with many years later, I think Trish Morse, right, so,

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which was kind of a coincidence before we kind of

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knew each other.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what what did you study with this polykeet worm?

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Speaker 5: My advisor was a guy named Doc Riiser, Nathan Riser,

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and he and Trish Morse, who you mentioned, were fundamental

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in starting the Marine Science Institute at in the Haunt

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mass Northeastern's Marine Lab. So I studied mostly ultrastructure or

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transmission and scanning electron microscopy anatomy of this little interstitial polykeep,

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which means interstitial is an anim that's so small. It

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lives between sand grains. So these these worms were maybe

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five millimeters long and you know, one hundred microns wide.

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And I was studying their head anatomy and some glandular

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structures based on my advisor's ideas and hypotheses on these.

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And I took malacology, the study of molluscs, with doctor Morse.

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Speaker 3: That's awesome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we took the same class, probably because we

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went on amazing quadty ahead and everything.

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Speaker 3: So I guess fast forward now to veterinary school.

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Speaker 2: What opportunities were there in vet school when you were

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going through for fish medicine and did you want to

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maybe mention any mentors you had at the time.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, quite a bit actually, And really the pen had

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what they called the core Elective curriculum. So I started

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in nineteen eighty four, so almost exactly forty years ago,

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and we had a course that third years took called

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Fish Diseases. It was an elective. Probably had it too.

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I took that and then I went to Aquavet after

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my second year at woods Hole, and my mentors then

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were doctor Bill Medway, William Medway, and doctor Don apt

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And it's funny because in the early eighties eighty two

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eighty three, when I volunteered at the aquarium and I

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was telling people I'm going to go to vet school

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and I'm going to be an aquarium vet. And they said, well,

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you need to track down three people, Joe Jarassi, Bill Medway,

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and Don Appt, and they all had a connection to you. Penn,

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Don and apt and doctor Garossi were graduates and Medway

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was a professor there started in the late fifties, and

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they all, especially Gerrasse and Medway, some of the early

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veterinarians along with Sam Ridgeway, working on marine mammals. But

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it was really hard to work with marine mammals and

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to get your hands on them, to even do extern

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ships or shadow as a student. So that's when I

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took the fish disease class and thought, you know, I

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don't really know a lot about fish. I need to learn,

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and what better way to learn than to work at

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a little pet store where I could see the species,

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learn about water quality, life support systems, and the industry.

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So I had some other mentors. Doctor Chuck Newton made

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a big impact on me. An orthopedic surgeon Matti Hendrix,

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who was a pathologist at Penn who would oversee the

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fish course for a long time. Yeah, I'm glad you asked.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to go even a little bit faster

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forward to your first job, and I know it was

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kind of a really cool thing. You were a fish

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vet right out of that school. Can you tell us

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a little bit about that.

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's fun to talk about it and look back

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on it. So here I am. It's April of nineteen

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eighty eight. I'm a month from graduating, and the only

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prospect I had I was applying for a nihpost doc

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at Woodshole with doctor Appt and doctor lou Leibovitz to

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do horseshoe crew research. So I had submitted this NIH

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postdoc proposal that was a three year, three year deal,

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but it didn't get funded. But the pet store trade

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winds still there, different ownership. I think the company that

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sold them fish was called o'burn Tropical and a guy

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named David o'byrn owned this operation. And thirty five forty

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years ago, we didn't have pet cos and pet smarts.

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Walmarts weren't selling fish. So a lot of those other

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mom and pop pet stores I talk about would buy

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their fish from wholesalers like o'burn's. So they would buy

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boxes of fish from Asia and South America and Florida,

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and then a pet store. I need twenty neons and

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ten pleicos and twenty angel fish and they could buy them.

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The whole saler would mark them up. And I remember

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he was selling about six million dollars worth of fish

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a year, and that was in the late nineteen eighties.

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And so he heard there was this vet student a

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trade Winds that was cutting up fish and diagnosing diseases.

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And he asked me to look at some of his fish,

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and I did, and then he said, I want to

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take you out to dinner and make you a job offer,

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and I thought, okay. So he took me to this

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kind of fancy men's club in Philadelphia called the Vesper Club,

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and you know, I was twenty eight years old, and

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I remember having a couple jin martinis that were really good,

256
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and he said, I want to offer you a job,

257
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and he asked me what I wanted, and you know,

258
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I had kind of prepped and talked to my lawyer

259
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brother and friends are like, oh man, you got to

260
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,200
ask for a lot, you got to ask for I

261
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don't know a lot of money back then, and he

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didn't make me an offer. He said, well, what do

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you want? So I gave him this really high number

264
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and he didn't flinch, but he said, well, how about

265
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if we start here and I give you a five

266
00:14:56,279 --> 00:14:59,039
thousand dollar raise every six months, and if you're with

267
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me in two years, you'll get to that number. And

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I said sold, And so that was it. I started

269
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in May, I graduated in May. I worked for him

270
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for a little while, took a trip to Europe, and

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then stayed with him for almost five years, including helping

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open his quarantine and relay facility in Naples, Florida. It

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was immersion, but I learned a lot.

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Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, definitely, And uh yeah, for the listeners, this

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is kind of when I met Gray after he just

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started the job, as I was a vet student. So yeah,

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it was kind of a classic time for us.

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Speaker 5: I think, oh it was I, you know, Roy and

279
00:15:37,039 --> 00:15:39,639
his buddy Howard Crumb called me on the phone. So

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for the listeners, nineteen eighty eight, and you've heard this

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if you're younger, from your parents or grandparents, but that's

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you know, the phone rang and it was a landline

283
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and with these two guys said, hey, we just started

284
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at U Penn were first years. We heard you were

285
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a fish vet. We want to be fish vets, we

286
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want to visit you. And then it struck up what's

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now a thirty six year relationship and ship. And I

288
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,399
remember we had I kind of assigned you guys some

289
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pretty basic research projects like hey.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I remember, I remember.

291
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Speaker 5: Drop off of fins and see what it looks like,

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and you know, we we build on that. Let's just say, oh, yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned Naples and that was kind of my

294
00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:22,080
next question was, which I thought was really exciting when

295
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,559
that happened and you told us about it, tell us

296
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about why you moved down to Florida and Naples, and

297
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,320
a little bit about what you had to do to

298
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,080
kind of get that part of the business ro up

299
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and running.

300
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Speaker 4: Yeah.

301
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,039
Speaker 5: So Dave was a pretty entrepreneurial guy, as was your

302
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,879
boss for a while, Joe Diaz. They were good buddies.

303
00:16:39,399 --> 00:16:42,360
And you know, these businesses, let's face it, they are

304
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,799
that so they've got to make money. They've got to

305
00:16:44,799 --> 00:16:49,720
stay solvent. And Dave recognized that, you know, mortality really

306
00:16:49,759 --> 00:16:53,080
cut into profits, right if you're paying to import fish

307
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,960
and they end up dying. It's a double loss because

308
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,159
you're paying to ship water around on Airplanes' expensive, it's heavy.

309
00:17:01,519 --> 00:17:04,240
So I kind of set up some protocols in Philadelphia

310
00:17:04,279 --> 00:17:06,599
that first year. I kind of wish I knew now

311
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:08,960
what I didn't know then, because I would have been

312
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:14,359
more proactive on preventive medicine and biosecurity and fish handling.

313
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,240
I was just new, right, I was naive, but I

314
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,160
think I helped some things there. And then Dave thought, well,

315
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,799
we're losing a lot of fish out of South America

316
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,200
because of the stress of shipment, crowding, disease. So he

317
00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:30,640
had the idea, if I build a holding facility in

318
00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:34,559
southern Florida, almost all those South American fish mainly out

319
00:17:34,599 --> 00:17:39,400
of Columbia, Brazil, Peru. If those fish they almost all

320
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,119
fly into Miami. If I can get them at the

321
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,839
airport and rush them across the Everglades in two hours,

322
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,160
I'll have them swimming in water instead of another twelve

323
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,359
to twenty four hours being shipped around the country. And

324
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,680
so the idea was get the fish, reduce stress, manage

325
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,279
disease and problems, and then you'll have a much stronger

326
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:07,160
product to transship either supply by truck in other wholesalers

327
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,119
in Florida or ship by air. And that was the idea.

328
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:15,079
And early on I would travel down maybe for a

329
00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:17,000
few days or a week, go back to Philly, and

330
00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:21,400
by the end of nineteen eighty nine I was living

331
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,559
there and only coming up to Philly. You know every

332
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:25,839
couple few months.

333
00:18:26,079 --> 00:18:29,960
Speaker 3: Now you left out the weird uh South American travel parts.

334
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,920
Speaker 5: Oh you mean like flying to South America. Yes, yes,

335
00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,839
I went to Columbia once and it was interesting. I

336
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,319
had about we were working on how to Again, these

337
00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:44,279
are businesses, right, of course, everybody wants live, healthy fish,

338
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,799
and so we wanted to find a way to increase

339
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,559
the pack more fish in a box, to make the

340
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,680
landed costs cheaper without sacrificing health. So I went down.

341
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,160
I brought MS to two two. I remember I brought

342
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,039
like a kei lo of MS two to two. So

343
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,599
I'm bringing a kilo of white powder to Columbia. And

344
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,839
they didn't care about that at all. It's like taking

345
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,039
sand to the beach, right. But what they did care

346
00:19:10,079 --> 00:19:14,440
about was my microscope. They really scrutinized that and my

347
00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:17,559
Swiss army knife. Now, younger people will be surprised, but

348
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,160
in the eighties and nineties you could fly with knives

349
00:19:21,599 --> 00:19:23,960
with no problems. I had my Swiss army knife in

350
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,519
my pocket all the time. But when I got to Bogata,

351
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,039
one of the security guys looked at it and opened

352
00:19:30,079 --> 00:19:32,279
it and kind of held it up to his neck

353
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,039
and made like a slashing sound or movement, like you

354
00:19:36,039 --> 00:19:38,279
could still do that even with a small knife. But

355
00:19:38,319 --> 00:19:40,279
they gave me my knife. And to tell you, I

356
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,160
love the truth. I loved Columbia and I felt very

357
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,920
safe there despite the reputation. So yeah, I think that's

358
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,079
my main South American story.

359
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,359
Speaker 2: And I know I think you had mentioned before you

360
00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:55,839
worked to get suppliers obviously out of there and did

361
00:19:55,839 --> 00:19:57,200
some visiting of some of the areas.

362
00:19:57,519 --> 00:20:00,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, we visited. I worked with shippers, and I

363
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,839
went down to the gianos or the planes where the

364
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,519
fish were caught and held. I had some really interesting

365
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,680
experiences back in Naples. One guy I won't mention his name,

366
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,240
not that it would matter, probably, but he was in

367
00:20:16,279 --> 00:20:18,519
the So what happens. I don't know how it is

368
00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:21,359
now because I'm pretty far removed, but most of the

369
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,000
South American shippers of fish. These are family businesses, so

370
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,759
they'll have a family member in Miami, like a brother

371
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,119
or cousin or uncle or aunt or spouse, and they'll

372
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,279
handle the United States side of the business, and then

373
00:20:35,319 --> 00:20:38,400
they have family in South America that handled the South

374
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,519
American side, and that seems to work really well well.

375
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,799
One guy disappeared from the equation for a couple of years,

376
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,079
and then he reappeared and I said, hey, where have

377
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:51,839
you been? He said, oh, I was at I spent

378
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,519
a couple of years at the university. And it turned

379
00:20:54,519 --> 00:20:59,200
out that was a euphemism for in jail. So some

380
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,839
some South America American tropical fish, there were drug dealers

381
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,400
laundering money with tropical fish, so that's how they would

382
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,319
clean up the drug money. Not everybody, or maybe even many,

383
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,079
but some people did that and he got caught. And

384
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,440
the other thing that I never saw it happen, but

385
00:21:16,759 --> 00:21:21,000
people would also smuggle drugs into the US, either inside

386
00:21:21,079 --> 00:21:26,680
fish literally like little packets inside plecostomus, or more commonly

387
00:21:26,759 --> 00:21:30,279
in the walls of the fish boxes, the styrofoam boxes.

388
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,200
So frequently when we picked up these boxes, our driver

389
00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:39,279
in Miami that the customs people and the DEA would

390
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,440
puncture the styrofoam with blunt probes that they wouldn't puncture

391
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,119
the bags, but they would make sure that the styrofoam

392
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,079
walls were not hollow or filled with anything. So that was.

393
00:21:50,039 --> 00:21:52,880
Speaker 3: Interesting, interesting. Yeah, I don't think I had heard that part.

394
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:58,319
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah. And sometimes practical jokes are fun and funny,

395
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,480
and sometimes you cross the line. And I crossed the

396
00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:06,400
line once. So my now wife, we weren't married. Then

397
00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:09,920
she came down and decided to She was a veterinarians.

398
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:11,599
She was a class behind me. She was going to

399
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,759
move to Naples, and her mom drove her down. The

400
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,279
job came with a house on the property, so I've

401
00:22:17,319 --> 00:22:20,519
been living there. And the people it was, they were

402
00:22:20,599 --> 00:22:24,160
like people building the life support systems and working on

403
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,640
the building. So it's mostly guys living there, and so

404
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:32,720
it needed some cleaning up. And I remember Diane's mom

405
00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:36,319
was there and our driver had found Sometimes the DEA

406
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,160
people would test the boxes with these color emetric test

407
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,119
kits looking for contraband like cocaine or heroin, and one time,

408
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,599
at least one time, one of these hits came back

409
00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:49,759
in between a couple of boxes, so I had it

410
00:22:49,799 --> 00:22:52,559
on my desk. Well, I'm from New Jersey, so this

411
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,680
ties in. I'm a Northern kid. So Diane's mom is

412
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:59,640
cleaning this kitchen and underneath the microwave she finds this

413
00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:03,279
p of waxy paper with white powder in it, and

414
00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:05,880
I'd never seen it, and she says, what is this?

415
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,480
And I said, oh, well, I have this cocaine tester here,

416
00:23:09,599 --> 00:23:13,359
let's see. Well, her mom like lost it. She's like,

417
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,200
I'm bringing you back home. You're not staying here, and

418
00:23:17,279 --> 00:23:19,480
I said no, no, I was kidding. I don't know

419
00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:22,200
what it is. So the only way she wouldn't take

420
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:23,759
her daughter away is we had to go to the

421
00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:26,799
Naples police station. So we here we go with this

422
00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:30,279
wax paper with white powder, with no label or anything.

423
00:23:30,319 --> 00:23:33,000
I bring it to the Naples police station. I say,

424
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,039
found this in my house. My mother in law to

425
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,119
be insists that you test it, and they tested it

426
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,079
and they said it's not any contraband, it's not an

427
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,920
illegal drug. And it wasn't until about five years later

428
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,400
and I was living in North Carolina and I learned

429
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,839
it was probably headache powder. That there's this stuff called

430
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,559
like goodies headache powder, b C powder. That's what it was.

431
00:23:55,799 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 3: That's funny, that's hilarious.

432
00:23:57,519 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 5: You can cut that out if you want.

433
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, that's great.

434
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: Well let's take a short break and we'll continue our

435
00:24:04,039 --> 00:24:08,200
discussion with Fish medicine pioneer and award winning author, doctor

436
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,680
Greg Blubart after these messages from our sponsors.

437
00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 3: Begging to hear more of your favorite show.

438
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,759
Speaker 6: Full episodes of all our shows are available on demand.

439
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,799
Go to petlife Radio dot com to fetch our entire

440
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,200
lineup of Powsome pet podcasts. Also dig us up in iHeartRadio,

441
00:24:27,319 --> 00:24:33,759
dan iTunes, Let's Talk Pats live only from pet Life Radio,

442
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,279
Let's Talk Past, Let's Done, PETO Radio Headline Radio.

443
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 1: At live radio dot com.

444
00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: We're back and continuing our conversation with my guest, doctor

445
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,240
Greg Lubart, fish pet pioneer and award winning author based

446
00:24:55,279 --> 00:24:57,039
at North Carolina State University.

447
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 3: So, Greg, I want to move forward again.

448
00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 2: And I remember coming down working at five D for

449
00:25:05,039 --> 00:25:07,359
a year and then you told me you were moving away,

450
00:25:08,039 --> 00:25:10,839
So tell us about the next phase of your career.

451
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,759
Speaker 5: Then, yeah, well I knew there wasn't room in Florida

452
00:25:13,839 --> 00:25:17,720
for both of us. Roya, so I knew I had

453
00:25:17,759 --> 00:25:19,359
to kind of move north.

454
00:25:20,039 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 4: No.

455
00:25:21,519 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 5: You know, it's funny. Even when I took the job

456
00:25:24,599 --> 00:25:27,599
at O Burn's, I thought, well, this is a job

457
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,920
working with fish as a vet, and they're going to

458
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,920
pay me. That's awesome. And one day I'd like to

459
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,440
be a public aquarium veterinarian. And you know, after a

460
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,160
few years, and I had a lot of loans. You know,

461
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,920
we went to an expensive vet school and I borrowed

462
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,920
a lot. So the job was good in that way,

463
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,400
and had I didn't have to pay rent, so that helped.

464
00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:49,400
And I had a racehorse, and that's another story. But

465
00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:53,039
my mom and I adopted a little standardbred fold that

466
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,480
was going to be euthanized, so that was a little

467
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,200
bit of a drain on the pocketbook. But anyway, you know,

468
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,039
I was content in Florida, and but I didn't think

469
00:26:01,079 --> 00:26:03,440
I'd spend my whole career there. It was a little

470
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,039
bit of an academic vacuum. We loved it. We loved

471
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,200
that area of southwest Florida, but you know, I was

472
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,640
sort of looking at wan Ads now and again, and

473
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,759
then NC State was looking for a fish veterinarian in

474
00:26:16,799 --> 00:26:19,759
the AVMA Journal, and I thought, well, there aren't many

475
00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:22,519
of us out there, I'm going to apply. So even

476
00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:25,279
though I was only not quite five years out of

477
00:26:25,279 --> 00:26:27,599
that school, four years out of that school, really I

478
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,440
applied to NC State. It had a great reputation. I'd

479
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,680
never been here, but Michael Stoskop was here. Ednoga was here,

480
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,599
two of the leading fish veterinarians. And at the time,

481
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,720
those two guys Ruth Francis Floyd and Jack Grotzick of

482
00:26:44,759 --> 00:26:48,000
the University of Georgia. And Jack Grotzick was also a

483
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,039
very important mentor for me. In fact, when I thought

484
00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:54,519
about taking the job in Philadelphia, I called him and

485
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,880
doctor Don apt and both of them said, but you

486
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,559
should go for it. But at the time, I mean,

487
00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:02,519
there were a lot of fish health people out there,

488
00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:06,000
but most of them weren't veterinarians too. So with Noga

489
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,759
and Stoscope here and I was lucky to get an interview.

490
00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:12,799
And then when I got the job offer in August

491
00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:15,000
of nineteen ninety two, even though I had to take

492
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,680
a pay cut, I thought, this window is going to

493
00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:21,200
close for someone who didn't have a PhD. I had

494
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,359
a master's but no PhD. No board certification, I better

495
00:27:24,599 --> 00:27:26,960
jump through that window. And that's how I ended up

496
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:27,640
in NC State.

497
00:27:28,039 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 2: And you've done a ton obviously before and since then.

498
00:27:31,319 --> 00:27:34,039
The next question I had for you was just kind

499
00:27:34,079 --> 00:27:36,599
of about some of those early years at NC State

500
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,400
and maybe some of the holes you saw gaps in

501
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,079
fish medicine. What research, teaching, and or outreach efforts would

502
00:27:44,079 --> 00:27:46,400
you say are kind of pivotal for you and your

503
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,720
career and are you most proud of Yeah.

504
00:27:49,039 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 5: So probably the best thing about this environment for me

505
00:27:52,839 --> 00:27:56,440
is the whole teamwork approach. You know, I'm not a

506
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,759
good surgeon. I'm sort of a generalist, and sometimes I

507
00:27:59,839 --> 00:28:03,200
kind to say I'm like a manager, like I'll manage

508
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,559
a case, but I get a surgeon, and I get

509
00:28:05,599 --> 00:28:09,559
a radiologist and an ophthalmologist or whatever's needed. So that

510
00:28:09,839 --> 00:28:13,079
this academic environment was really good for me. And I'm

511
00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:16,279
willing to say, hey, don't worry everybody, this is a fish,

512
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,039
but I can help you with the anatomy and the physiology,

513
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,839
the pre impost procedure care, those kinds of things. So

514
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,640
the students really drove a lot of what we did.

515
00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:30,400
In particular Robert Bakol, who was a first year student

516
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,279
when I came here, and Robert was really fearless. I

517
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,160
knew him from an I Triple Am meeting even before

518
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,039
I came here, and he would say, let's do abdominal surgery,

519
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,759
Let's do an MRI, let's do a mileigram. I mean

520
00:28:44,799 --> 00:28:47,640
things I would never have tried. And so I think

521
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,839
what I'm most proud of in that area is really

522
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,440
some pioneering work. And it's not me, it's really the

523
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:59,960
team here on fish anesthesia, fish imaging, and fish surge

524
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,880
and along with Craig Harms, who was a resident at

525
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,359
the time, and Craig is for sure my closest friend

526
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,880
and colleague here at Ency State, and we've been working

527
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,559
together for almost thirty two years, and so we just

528
00:29:14,039 --> 00:29:16,319
I think pulled back the curtain on some of what

529
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,799
the limits were, or at least perceived to be. We

530
00:29:18,839 --> 00:29:22,079
can take a cicklet and do abdominal surgery and take

531
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,079
part of it, swim bladder out, close it up and

532
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,880
it'll live, Or do microsurgery on a garami and do

533
00:29:28,039 --> 00:29:30,920
cat scans on fish and things that are I'm not

534
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,880
saying we were the first people to do those. I'm

535
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,559
sure we weren't, but we were among the first to

536
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,880
write up and publish some of that work. So I

537
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,519
think I'm proud of looking at someone's pet fish, whether

538
00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:45,480
it was a goldfish or a garami, and treating it

539
00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:47,519
just like we would somebody's dog or horse.

540
00:29:47,839 --> 00:29:49,759
Speaker 2: I had to add, and you did a lot of work,

541
00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:52,039
you know, kind of looking at drugs and drug studies

542
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,720
as well, both you know, the kinetics and the you know,

543
00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:57,839
just effectiveness. Do you want to maybe talk about that?

544
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, you know, I had some great mentors once

545
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,960
I got here, and I don't know, I just mean,

546
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:08,160
you're in academia too. It's just magical in a lot

547
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,559
of ways. And some people who were more experienced and

548
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,400
were tenured said, hey, Greg, you can be a fish vet.

549
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,640
That's great. I know you love reptiles and you can

550
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:21,160
be a reptile vet. But you're going to need discipline

551
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,599
to kind of hang your hat on. If you're going

552
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,359
to get tenure in advance up the academic ladder, you're

553
00:30:27,359 --> 00:30:31,079
really going to have to focus on some part of

554
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,240
fish medicine, so not just taxonomic work. And I thought, well,

555
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:41,119
pharmacokinetics is in pharmacology. I'm not a pharmacologist, but I

556
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,400
knew the challenges I had in the industry treating fish,

557
00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:50,799
figuring out drugs and dosages and routes of administration, and

558
00:30:50,839 --> 00:30:53,920
I thought, yeah, that's something I could work with, and

559
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,519
that's what I did, and we established a colony of paku.

560
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,119
I remember telling doctor stef I said, you know, I

561
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,960
worked with these fish in Florida and in the Amazon.

562
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,359
They're big, they're tough, they're resilient, and they're a good

563
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,079
model because they're related to tetras and a lot of

564
00:31:13,119 --> 00:31:16,559
other popular tropical fish. So we had a colony of

565
00:31:16,599 --> 00:31:20,400
paku here for about fifteen years that we did anesthesia

566
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,519
studies with pharmacokinetics studies and so yeah, that was if

567
00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:29,720
I had an area that was a discipline, it was pharmacology.

568
00:31:30,319 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: So you also did quite a bit on the teaching side,

569
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,759
and I remember you bringing students down here. I don't

570
00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:38,279
know if that was early on or whether that was

571
00:31:38,279 --> 00:31:39,880
a little bit later, but yeah, you want to maybe

572
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,720
touch on a little bit of the teaching side of that.

573
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,319
Speaker 5: Yeah. Thanks. You know, one thing that was great about

574
00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:46,839
coming to NC State as a fish vedin area is

575
00:31:47,119 --> 00:31:50,359
there really wasn't a roadmap for what I could do.

576
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,279
It was expected I would do research, teach, and see clinics,

577
00:31:54,319 --> 00:31:57,720
but it really wasn't well defined, which fit well for

578
00:31:57,759 --> 00:32:00,200
me because I tend to I don't know, so, I

579
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,279
tend to function pretty well in a minimally organized environment,

580
00:32:04,359 --> 00:32:07,680
let's say. So I started looking at, well, what could

581
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,680
I do and what might meet the needs of the school,

582
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,839
and what would students like. So I think in nineteen

583
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,279
ninety four, i'd been here about a year. I started

584
00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:20,720
an aquatic medicine rotation, a two week rotation, and you know,

585
00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:24,720
let's face it, even now, we wouldn't have fish coming

586
00:32:24,759 --> 00:32:27,480
in every day. So what I did is I thought, well,

587
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,440
I'll kind of run this like an experiential learning So

588
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,920
if I do have fish cases coming in and they're

589
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,319
not urgent or emergent, I'll try to hone them in

590
00:32:38,359 --> 00:32:41,319
on these two week blocks. I did one in the spring,

591
00:32:41,359 --> 00:32:43,319
one in the fall, and one in the winter, and

592
00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:46,519
then we'll visit public aquariums, of which there are three

593
00:32:46,519 --> 00:32:48,640
in the state. And at this time in the nineties

594
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,440
and early two thousands, there were no veterinarians working at

595
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,920
those aquariums. Now they're two full time bets. North Carolina

596
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,640
is the number two trout producer, number two or three

597
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,160
in the country way by Idaho, but there's a fairly

598
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,359
substantial rainbow trout industry in the mountains. So we would

599
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,720
go to the mountains and visit facilities, and we would

600
00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:13,079
go to the coastal plain and visit hybrid stripe bass facilities,

601
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,079
and we'd go to pet stores and do rounds at

602
00:33:16,079 --> 00:33:19,440
the pet store, and we'd go to Hoy farms in

603
00:33:19,519 --> 00:33:21,559
the state. So it was a little bit of Greg

604
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,839
driving a big van around the state. But in the

605
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,000
winter there wasn't as much going on, especially with Hoy

606
00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:29,759
ponds every fish and pretty dormant. So I thought, I'm

607
00:33:29,799 --> 00:33:31,880
going to go to Florida and visit my friends there,

608
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,400
like Roy. So for probably eight or nine years, every

609
00:33:36,799 --> 00:33:39,880
February we'd go to Florida for a week and I'd

610
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,799
visit Roy at five D when he was working there

611
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,119
and later at the Propical Coastural Facility, and we'd go

612
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,359
to Disney and go to Epcot, and then we'd go

613
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,079
to Sea World where we had friends and colleagues. And

614
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,640
one time I had an adventurous group. We went all

615
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,000
the way down to the Everglades and I rented up

616
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:02,079
pontoon boat and we went out for the day on

617
00:34:02,119 --> 00:34:04,079
a pontoon boat. But that made for a really long

618
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,640
drive back. So that was a very popular block, and

619
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,079
I opened it up to students from other schools, particularly Pen,

620
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,639
because Penn already had you know, the aquaedet connection and

621
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,400
their fish disease course, and I maintained some adjunct status

622
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,760
there where I would teach in that course. So if

623
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,719
my block didn't fill with NC State students, I would

624
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,599
bless it out with Penn students and sometimes students from

625
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:33,880
other schools too, And I probably did that block for

626
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,719
about fifteen years. I don't do it anymore. I've got

627
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,280
more regular clinical duties, so it precludes me from doing

628
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:42,840
those big two week hunks.

629
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,639
Speaker 2: So that's a little bit of a segue before we

630
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,159
talk about writing in the book you and I put

631
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:52,280
together to your galapago's interests. Now, I know, really really

632
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,960
excited students that get to go there with you during

633
00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:57,360
kind of scheduled visits.

634
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 3: But you want to talk a little bit about that.

635
00:34:59,199 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, I do.

636
00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:00,199
Speaker 1: So.

637
00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:03,119
Speaker 5: I mean, it's such a great profession we're in, and

638
00:35:03,639 --> 00:35:08,480
you know, opportunities pop up all the time, and sometimes

639
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,599
it's like a no brainer, you just like knee jerk. Yes,

640
00:35:11,639 --> 00:35:14,400
I will do that. Sometimes maybe you need to think

641
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,199
about it and look at your schedule and look at

642
00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:19,880
your priorities. And sometimes right out of the gate it's

643
00:35:20,039 --> 00:35:22,199
like a hard no, like no, I'm not really I

644
00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:25,679
don't have expertise in that area. So I started working

645
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,440
with a wonderful guy named Ken Lohman in nineteen ninety five.

646
00:35:29,559 --> 00:35:33,840
Ken's a biologist at UNC Chapel Hill. Were the same vintage.

647
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,519
In fact, we both took invert zero with doctor Barnes.

648
00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:38,760
He took it at Duke when he was an undergrad

649
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,280
at Duke, and I took it at Gettysburg. And he

650
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:47,159
studies marine animal navigation. His masters was at University of

651
00:35:47,199 --> 00:35:51,480
Florida looking at lobster navigation. His PhD was on sam

652
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:55,400
and at University of Washington, and then he came to

653
00:35:55,639 --> 00:35:59,119
UNC Chapel Hill around nineteen ninety one, and his research

654
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,400
he was looking that marine invertebrates like a sea slug

655
00:36:02,519 --> 00:36:06,239
called tritonia, and he also was started working with sea turtles.

656
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,199
And when he had some sick tritonia, he called me

657
00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:12,199
again telephone. Yeah, I hear you might be someone who

658
00:36:12,199 --> 00:36:15,840
can help me with these sick molluscs. And I met him,

659
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,960
and it's all about relationships, right Roy, you know, going

660
00:36:19,039 --> 00:36:23,440
over there at least trying showing interest and some passion.

661
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,679
I brought Andy Stamper with me. Actually Andy was a

662
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,079
resident then, and so that tracks it to around nineteen

663
00:36:29,159 --> 00:36:32,360
ninety five nineteen ninety six. I'm not sure we helped him,

664
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,880
but we had a relationship. And then two thousand and three,

665
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,679
it's twenty one years old, he started bringing juvenile sea

666
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,920
turtles into his lap to study navigation in a non

667
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,679
invasive way using magnetic fields and little harnesses. And I'd

668
00:36:45,679 --> 00:36:48,800
always had an interest in reptiles and amphibians, and hence

669
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,440
he state allowed me to pursue that, and so when

670
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,480
he needed a vent for his sea turtles, I became

671
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,480
that person. So once or twice a year I would

672
00:36:56,519 --> 00:37:00,000
go to Chapel Hill bring students to physicals and these

673
00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:02,159
he would keep these turtles for a year. It was

674
00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:05,960
sort of a combo head starting program and research program.

675
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,159
And this went on for eight or nine years. We'd

676
00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:14,360
have lunch, how's the family, And around twenty eleven he said, hey,

677
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,400
I've been going to the Galopagos, and my ears kind

678
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,440
of perked up and I said, oh, what's happening there?

679
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,599
He said, well, we're building a science center with a

680
00:37:21,639 --> 00:37:24,599
school in Kito. I said, well, if you ever need

681
00:37:24,599 --> 00:37:28,079
a VET he said okay. And then twenty twelve he said, hey, Greg,

682
00:37:28,119 --> 00:37:31,480
this stuff you're doing with my sea turtles, physicals, vital signs,

683
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:34,000
collecting blood, could you do that with wild sea turtles

684
00:37:34,039 --> 00:37:36,239
and the Galopagos. I'm trying to get some research off

685
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,880
the ground. And that was like a knee jerk, no brainer.

686
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,320
He didn't even have to finish the question, and before

687
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,760
I even thought how I would do it, I said yes.

688
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,840
So I made my first trip there in twenty thirteen,

689
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,480
and Roy, you were there this year. I mean, I

690
00:37:49,519 --> 00:37:53,519
don't think anybody that goes to the Galopagos is disappointed

691
00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:56,760
and doesn't want to find it, doesn't want to find

692
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,320
a way to go back. And so I've been there

693
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,320
twenty eight times now and very modest beginning going with

694
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,800
Ken that just the two of us we did our

695
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,559
sea turtle research, but I started to establish some relationships

696
00:38:10,559 --> 00:38:13,920
with the Galopagos National Park and other scientists, and now

697
00:38:14,119 --> 00:38:17,360
I think I've worked on twenty five species there. Our

698
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,320
NC State team and colleagues have published about forty papers,

699
00:38:21,639 --> 00:38:25,119
and truth funniest thing, the only thing I've done with

700
00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:29,840
fish in the Galapagos is eat them. Well, I'm involved

701
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,119
in some fish projects, but I've not been hands on

702
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,199
because of either the pandemic or I've been needed to

703
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,000
work on sea lions or seabirds or tortoises. So and

704
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,639
I tell my students I didn't even go to the

705
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,199
Galapagos for the first time till I was fifty four

706
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,440
years old. So that's what's great about this career. You

707
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,840
don't know where it's going to take you, but if

708
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:56,400
you work hard at relationships in a sincere and transparent manner,

709
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,840
it's going to take you to cool places. And I

710
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,760
think you found that this year year. And one other thing,

711
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,519
I think it came at a great time for me

712
00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:07,199
because I've been at NC State for twenty years and

713
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,360
I won't say I was getting bored, but I think

714
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,320
I was sort of looking for something a little different,

715
00:39:12,519 --> 00:39:14,960
and the Galoppogo's kind of dropped in my lap. And then,

716
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,920
as you mentioned, I've taken about one hundred and forty

717
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,639
students there. Every spring break, I bring between twenty and

718
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,239
thirty to third year VET students. And not only do

719
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,199
we go it's very intense. We're only there on the

720
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,880
ground about seven days, but we do field research too.

721
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

722
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,519
Speaker 2: I've definitely heard about it from some of your students,

723
00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:39,719
and uh, yeah, that the Galapagos is special. I thought,

724
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,639
you know, Greg hasn't done fish, so maybe I need

725
00:39:41,679 --> 00:39:42,360
to do some fish there.

726
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,559
Speaker 5: And it's great you're doing it. I hope you're. Are

727
00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:46,639
you going back this year?

728
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, going back in actually July August, and then again

729
00:39:49,679 --> 00:39:53,760
in January. So yeah, we're not going to overlap, unfortunately, but.

730
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 5: Oh maybe in July.

731
00:39:55,159 --> 00:39:57,039
Speaker 3: Well it'll be any July. You said you're going to

732
00:39:57,079 --> 00:39:57,840
be mid July.

733
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 5: I think right, yeah, fifteenth, about twenty third.

734
00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

735
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, like I said, I mean, there's not room

736
00:40:03,639 --> 00:40:06,280
like Florida, there's not room for us either.

737
00:40:06,559 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm getting that kind of sense, which makes me sad.

738
00:40:09,559 --> 00:40:12,880
But you know, yeah, what about the book. Yeah, the book.

739
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:13,960
Let's talk about the book.

740
00:40:14,039 --> 00:40:17,559
Speaker 2: So before we talk about the Querenfish Medicine Handbook that

741
00:40:17,639 --> 00:40:19,599
Greg and I co author that just came out, I

742
00:40:19,639 --> 00:40:22,760
did want to at least reference the fact that Greg

743
00:40:23,039 --> 00:40:27,039
is an award winning author as well as a veterinarian

744
00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:30,559
and pioneer and has done a lot to forward the profession,

745
00:40:30,599 --> 00:40:35,599
including you know, his pretty influential and important Invertebrate Medicine book,

746
00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:38,440
which I think is on its third edition right now, right.

747
00:40:38,519 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 3: So I was.

748
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: Honored when Greg asked me to co write this book.

749
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,079
Speaker 3: So, yeah, we'll talk about the Queranfish Medicine Handbook, Greg.

750
00:40:46,039 --> 00:40:49,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd love to. So we talk about pioneers. I

751
00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:53,119
mentioned some names, and Greg and Linda Harrison are really

752
00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:55,679
pioneers in the area of what we call exotic animal

753
00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:00,840
medicine or non domestic or companion zoo animal. They wrote

754
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,119
avan medicine textbooks going I think the first edition was

755
00:41:04,199 --> 00:41:07,920
in the mid eighties. And then they started a company

756
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,400
called the Zoological Education Network, and this would have been

757
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,400
in the nineties. It was a big deal. They had

758
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,079
their own conference every year in southern Florida, and they

759
00:41:19,119 --> 00:41:23,519
put out a journal called Exotic DVM Magazine. Exotic DVM

760
00:41:23,559 --> 00:41:27,679
Magazine was a very clinically focused journal. There was some

761
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:31,000
peer review, but it was really practical. Hey, I'm a

762
00:41:31,039 --> 00:41:33,880
busy clinician, and you know, this is before the Internet

763
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,639
was big, and so it really helped to have these

764
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,079
one pager articles sometimes with nuts and bolts, how do

765
00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:43,039
I hold it? How do I get blood out of it?

766
00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:47,159
What are the drugs and dosages? And they actually had

767
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,559
this handbook series which was like a multi ring binder,

768
00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:54,320
and you could buy these little inserts, fifty sixty page

769
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,199
inserts and put them in this handbook. I have a

770
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,719
couple on my shelf. So it's probably twenty years ago.

771
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,199
Linda reached out and said, hey, how would you like

772
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,760
to put together a little handbook of ornamental fish for

773
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,840
our series. It doesn't have to be big and involved,

774
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,119
just something that a veterin airan could have quickly turned to,

775
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:16,280
like between clients, how much ms two two two? Or

776
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:18,119
how do I get a skin boxy? And so I

777
00:42:18,199 --> 00:42:20,960
did it. It was very modest about I think it was

778
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,039
fifty four pages. I looked at it the other day,

779
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,840
and you know, the years went by and the Zoological

780
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,760
Education Network, I mean, there have been some other kind

781
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,480
of groups and things that have replaced it as are

782
00:42:32,639 --> 00:42:36,360
part of the profession has developed. Exotic animals, amphibians and

783
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,400
reptiles and small mammals and even fish all have their

784
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,039
own boards now, so you can be an American Board

785
00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:45,280
of Veterinary Practitioner specialist. So things have changed and evolved.

786
00:42:45,639 --> 00:42:48,119
And then I don't know, it's probably I don't remember

787
00:42:48,199 --> 00:42:50,599
Roy it was three years ago. Does that sound about right?

788
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,000
I definitely sure.

789
00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 3: Let's let's go with three years ago.

790
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,159
Speaker 5: Let's go with free. It could have been a tick more. Yeah,

791
00:42:56,199 --> 00:42:59,679
But CRC Press reached out to me, and I guess

792
00:42:59,679 --> 00:43:02,000
they knew about the handbook and they said, hey, how

793
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,679
would you like to revise that handbook? And I've edited

794
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,159
a number of textbooks and it's a lot of work,

795
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,320
and I thought, to really bring this handbook up to

796
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,400
current standards with the information we have now is going

797
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,360
to be a pretty big task. And I reached out

798
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,039
to the Harrisons and they're so generous and they said, Greg,

799
00:43:21,119 --> 00:43:23,840
you just take that thing and do whatever you want

800
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,119
with it. You know, you don't have to pay for

801
00:43:25,159 --> 00:43:27,599
the rights because I didn't, you know, usually publishers own

802
00:43:27,639 --> 00:43:29,440
the rights. They said you can just use it, and

803
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,239
it was very nice of them. And then I thought, Okay,

804
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,000
I don't think I can do this justice by myself.

805
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,119
It really needs it needs a clean up hitter. You

806
00:43:39,199 --> 00:43:41,880
need that the home run hitter of Ornamental Fish and

807
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,039
none other than Roy. And I reached out to Roy

808
00:43:44,079 --> 00:43:45,880
and I said, Roy, how would you like to co

809
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,360
author this handbook with me? And I think I probably

810
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,320
sent you the handbook and we looked it over and

811
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,719
Roy really made it what it is. I'm as co author,

812
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,320
but I really should be like subscript co author because

813
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,039
the amount of work he put into it.

814
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 3: But I'm through at all.

815
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 5: I'm really proud of it.

816
00:44:02,599 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'm not through it all. Greg.

817
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 2: Obviously you did a ton of work, and uh, yeah,

818
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,000
I know. I'm proud of it as well. I guess

819
00:44:10,159 --> 00:44:13,239
maybe talk about when you did kind of the outline

820
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,760
many many years ago, and the you know, the Harrison

821
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,360
and Harrison format and kind of the changes. Maybe you

822
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,280
want to talk a little bit about some of the

823
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,199
differences in some of the maybe editions.

824
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:30,039
Speaker 5: Yeah. So originally it was pretty minimal, black and white,

825
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,559
no color. I think there were just a couple diagrams.

826
00:44:33,599 --> 00:44:35,960
I know one was a tube feet in a fish

827
00:44:36,079 --> 00:44:38,679
that I had a biological illustrator. Do you know what

828
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,480
had references? The sort of references of the time, I

829
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,559
think it well, I know it came out in two

830
00:44:43,639 --> 00:44:46,679
thousand and six, right, so that's eighteen years ago, and

831
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,960
really it means I probably was based on information that's

832
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,400
twenty years old. So it was fairly basic in terms

833
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,320
of it. Think about an outline, like a notes outline

834
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:01,320
you might get in that school or at a CE conference,

835
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,760
you know, bullet points, a few paragraphs. But now it's

836
00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:11,480
really what Roy did exceeded any expectations I ever had

837
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,599
for the handbook. Now it's almost three hundred pages. It's

838
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,360
got a formulary, a detailed formulary. Before I think my

839
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,719
formulary was one table on one little page. It's richly

840
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,599
illustrated with color. Most of those images are from Roy

841
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,679
and his contacts in the Florida tropical fish industry. We've

842
00:45:31,679 --> 00:45:40,280
got pretty detailed sections on diagnostics, including imaging like radiology,

843
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:48,920
cet ultrasound, and really really detailed sections on surgery infectious diseases,

844
00:45:49,159 --> 00:45:54,480
complete with images of all the major parasites. So I

845
00:45:54,519 --> 00:45:56,559
sort of thought it would end up being like a

846
00:45:56,599 --> 00:45:59,159
little handbook, like I have little hands that you could

847
00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:03,039
put in my little but it's really I mean, I

848
00:46:03,039 --> 00:46:06,960
think not that I'm boasting, but man, this thing really

849
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,519
came together as a like a full blown comprehensive fish textbook.

850
00:46:11,639 --> 00:46:14,679
And there's some great books out there, with Michael Stoskoff's book,

851
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,119
Ed Noga's book, Steve Smith, Helen Roberts, Hatfield and Clayton

852
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,000
and they all have their strengths, and you know, most

853
00:46:22,119 --> 00:46:24,920
fish bets have them all on their shelf. Nick Stane Eern.

854
00:46:25,079 --> 00:46:26,960
But the way this thing came together, and I think

855
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,760
the best part of it is and I'm not sure

856
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,840
how CRC did it, but you can buy for about

857
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:36,280
forty bucks the softcover, so it's richly illustrated in color.

858
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:38,800
And I have to have a shout out to my

859
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,719
wife Diane, who really helped design the cover.

860
00:46:42,039 --> 00:46:44,119
Speaker 3: Definitely, definitely thank you Diane.

861
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, she helped with the images and the color pattern

862
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:50,880
and everything. She's really good at that. In fact, she

863
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:55,159
helped design the covers of at least two of the

864
00:46:55,199 --> 00:46:59,360
Invertebrate Medicine books, so that really helped. But yeah, I mean,

865
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,039
I'm ragging on it partly because it's mostly Roy's book,

866
00:47:03,079 --> 00:47:06,079
but it's really good and I'm even buying extra copies

867
00:47:06,119 --> 00:47:06,679
to give away.

868
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,559
Speaker 2: Definitely mine in Greg's book. And yeah, I've told Greg

869
00:47:09,559 --> 00:47:12,320
already as well. I think we've got plans for the

870
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,559
second edition, but I think the first edition will hopefully

871
00:47:14,599 --> 00:47:16,639
have a pretty good run. And I think there's you know,

872
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,079
I think one of the goals we had was definitely

873
00:47:19,199 --> 00:47:22,000
keeping it as much detail as we could, but short

874
00:47:22,119 --> 00:47:23,760
enough that you didn't have to kind of wade through

875
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,480
too much to get basic information that you would need

876
00:47:26,519 --> 00:47:29,800
whether you're you know, maybe an advanced hobbyist or aquarist

877
00:47:30,079 --> 00:47:32,199
or a veterinarian who's going to be working with, you know,

878
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:32,960
with these folks.

879
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 3: So yeah, I think that's kind of one of the

880
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:36,199
strengths of the book.

881
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think one thing that keeps it detailed

882
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,039
but concise is that we really focus on ornamental fish.

883
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:42,519
Speaker 3: Yep.

884
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:46,159
Speaker 5: So it's focused freshwater and marine but you know at

885
00:47:46,199 --> 00:47:50,000
the public aqurime level, the hobbyist level, the aquaculture level,

886
00:47:50,199 --> 00:47:53,880
but we really don't kind of spread out into salmanas

887
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,199
or tilapia or catfish or anything like that. We stay

888
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,840
focused on ornamental's tropicals displayfish, and I think that's one

889
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,000
of the strengths of the book.

890
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:04,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree. I agree.

891
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 2: Well, unfortunately we're out of time. Definitely want to thank

892
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:13,000
our guest doctor Greg Loubard, my very very good close

893
00:48:13,039 --> 00:48:16,360
friend and mentor for making the time.

894
00:48:16,559 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 3: Greg appreciate it.

895
00:48:18,119 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 5: Wow, this is really special, Roy, and hey man, anytime

896
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,599
I can spend an hour with you is a happy day.

897
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 3: Dido, diddo.

898
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,079
Speaker 2: I want to thank our producer, Mark Winner for making

899
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:28,880
the show possible.

900
00:48:29,119 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 3: Greg.

901
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 2: I did mention that I might ask you for some

902
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,239
words of wisdom for people, maybe those interested in working

903
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,960
with aquarium fish or aquatic animals as a career.

904
00:48:38,039 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 3: You know, husbandry, or you know even health. Do you

905
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,440
have any any words of wisdom for those folks?

906
00:48:43,639 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 5: Absolutely? I do. So don't be intimidated by the breadth

907
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,360
of species or the different kinds of life support systems

908
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,159
and environments. If you have an interest and you're willing

909
00:48:56,199 --> 00:49:00,920
to work hard, you're enthusiastic, and you communicate well with people,

910
00:49:01,199 --> 00:49:04,119
then there will be lots of opportunities for you. Where

911
00:49:04,559 --> 00:49:09,280
fish veterinarians as a group are very inclusive, we're fun.

912
00:49:09,599 --> 00:49:13,360
There's so much work to be done that people there

913
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,639
aren't really like turfs and things like that. We really

914
00:49:16,679 --> 00:49:20,719
love mentoring younger people, and I would say, get your

915
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,880
hands wet. I've never had a chology. I'm not a hobbyist,

916
00:49:24,079 --> 00:49:26,320
but I made it a point to try to learn

917
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:34,000
through hands on, through connecting with people, experts, taking ce opportunities,

918
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,599
and just teaching myself things. So I would say, you know,

919
00:49:38,679 --> 00:49:42,239
we've had almost any major aquarium now has at least

920
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:46,280
two veterinarians. I had a student, a former student last

921
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:51,199
week who's an er doctor and she's pretty amazing, and

922
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,400
she reached out to me because she was working with

923
00:49:53,639 --> 00:49:56,239
an elasma brank and she had never done that, but

924
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,239
she said, I'm willing to try. Can you help me?

925
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,039
And I did. I face timed with her and helped

926
00:50:01,039 --> 00:50:03,079
her get a sample and help her to get help

927
00:50:03,159 --> 00:50:05,679
her get blood, and that kind of stuff is good

928
00:50:05,679 --> 00:50:09,239
for everybody, and she probably has a whole new level

929
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:13,000
of confidence working with fish after just one case. So

930
00:50:13,119 --> 00:50:15,320
I think if you have the interest and the will,

931
00:50:15,559 --> 00:50:18,639
people like Roy and myself and our other colleagues are

932
00:50:18,679 --> 00:50:20,239
willing to nurture that interest.

933
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 3: Very true, Very true. Thanks Greg.

934
00:50:22,639 --> 00:50:25,559
Speaker 2: Please be sure to check out Greg's weblinks, which will

935
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:28,639
be found on his aquarium Mania episode page. If you

936
00:50:28,679 --> 00:50:31,960
have any questions, comments, or ideas for a show, email

937
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,440
me at doctor Roy at.

938
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,079
Speaker 3: Petlife Radio dot com.

939
00:50:35,159 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 2: That's d R Roi at Petlife Radio dot com. Until

940
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,360
next time, please visit your local aquariance stores and keep

941
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:46,039
your tanks clean and your fish healthy. And definitely check

942
00:50:46,079 --> 00:50:49,800
out Gregg and my newly released guide, The Aquariumfish Medicine Handbook,

943
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which is available at most online bookstores.

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Speaker 1: Let's Talk Pats every week on demand only on Petlife

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Radios dot com.

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Speaker 3: Pos book stopt the party, demo

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Speaker 4: Stop