WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.359 Hey, everyone, Welcome to the Team House. My name is 2 00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:07.839 Jack Murphy, and our guest on tonight's show is Wayne Barnes. 3 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:11.720 He is a retired career FBI agent and he is 4 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:14.839 the author of a new book called A Trader in 5 00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:19.600 the FBI The Hunt for a Russian Mole. Now, I 6 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:22.960 guess a little bit of a spoiler alert. This interview 7 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.079 is going to dovetail very well with a past interview 8 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:28.160 we did with Eric O'Neil. 9 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:29.879 So. 10 00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:35.520 But that story, as interesting as it is, Wayne brings 11 00:00:35.560 --> 00:00:38.799 a totally new aspect of this mole hunt in the 12 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:42.320 FBI that I was completely unaware of. I read the 13 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:45.399 book on Kindle. The Kindle edition of it is really good, 14 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:49.719 but it's also available as paperback, and it's one of 15 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:53.880 my favorite espionage books out there, nonfiction espionage books out there, 16 00:00:54.039 --> 00:00:56.719 because of the amount of detail really that Wayne was 17 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:59.920 able to get into. And also you're just a good writer. 18 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:01.280 I mean, you have a talent for it. 19 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:03.679 Thank you very much. 20 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:06.959 I'm really glad to be here, and I'm glad if 21 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:08.920 this is a recent read for you to have it 22 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:11.599 reach your top ten or your top five books, because 23 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:13.239 I know you've only read hundreds of it that's been 24 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:17.000 counter intelligence books, so that's a high, high standard to reach. 25 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:20.000 But yeah, I work very hard at the craft of writing. 26 00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:23.239 We can talk more as we go. But I had 27 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:27.079 a niche in debriefing defectors Cold War defectors, that is 28 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:31.599 Romanian generals KGB colonel's probably total of about twenty four. 29 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:35.239 Most agents will meet one or two defectors in their career, 30 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:39.079 maybe during a counterintelligence school at Quanticod Academy. But I 31 00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:42.120 had a niche in debriefing defectors. If you think holding 32 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:44.879 a straight face and a casino in Las Vegas playing 33 00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:48.000 poker requires a poker face, that is nothing compared to 34 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:50.200 what you have to do with debriefing a Cage B colonel, 35 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:52.799 for instance, because they're looking for information. They're looking for 36 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:55.480 information to learn that if they decide to read defect 37 00:01:55.480 --> 00:01:57.680 they don't go back and be executed. They want to 38 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:00.799 go back and have information which is positive eligence about 39 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:03.079 the West to make it so they can have a 40 00:02:03.079 --> 00:02:06.280 soft landing instead of an execution. So you can't give 41 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:10.520 them anything, which is very difficult, but it's important anyway. 42 00:02:10.560 --> 00:02:13.719 The briefing defectors was a special deal. 43 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:19.120 So Wayne, let's start at the beginning, tell us a 44 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:21.800 little bit about your upbringing in the path that that 45 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:23.159 took you towards the FBI. 46 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:27.479 All right, you read this in chapter four. 47 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:32.919 At Invariably, if you write a book, you get people 48 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:35.520 to read it as a beta readers that is not pros, 49 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:39.039 but to see how it flows. And invariably everyone would 50 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:41.120 come back and say, well, what led you to get 51 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:43.560 in the FBI? What was your childhood? Like, you have 52 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:45.800 to incorporate that into the book. So chapter four is 53 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:48.919 called a childhood that led to the FBI. That seems 54 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:52.240 obvious at this point. I was raised, I'd like to say, 55 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:56.039 a poor boy in Philadelphia. I have a girlfriend of 56 00:02:56.439 --> 00:02:59.000 many years who's a city planner, and she says, no, 57 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:01.719 you were raised in a working class neighborhood. But she 58 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:04.840 was raised in Princeton, so she doesn't have the right 59 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:10.639 to say where I was raised. Anyway, It was primarily 60 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:14.879 a Catholic neighborhood. My elementary school was down the street, 61 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:18.120 but my neighborhood, West Oak Lane in Philadelphia and Mount Airy, 62 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:20.719 where their junior high school was, was almost all Jewish 63 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:23.879 other than the Catholic folks who went to parochial schools. 64 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:24.680 Big division. 65 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:27.960 In philadelphitween Catholic and public schools, and then high school 66 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:31.120 was in a place called Germantown. It was probably a 67 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:34.960 ninety black area with the high school. Because of our 68 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:39.240 feeder school neighborhoods, it made it maybe about sixty five 69 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:41.599 percent black. When I started high school, I was five 70 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:44.960 foot tall, weigh one hundred pounds, a bright, platinum blonde hair. 71 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:48.000 I was the littlest kid in the school, and so 72 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:50.039 in my school, if you weren't black, you were Jewish. 73 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:51.319 If you wrent Jewish, you were me. 74 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:58.159 So I understood minority status, you know, early on, but 75 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:02.439 I managed to succeed pretty well. I grew thirteen inches 76 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:04.960 in three years. So I started too small to be 77 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:06.960 on the football team. I started too small to be 78 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:10.159 the water boy for the football team, but eventually I 79 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:13.479 was on swim, gym, soccer, and track. I had a 80 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:16.759 gymnastic scholarship to the University of Iowa by the time I graduated, 81 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:19.279 but I had never been across the Mississippi. I had 82 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:22.759 never even been across the Susquehanna. So going to college 83 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:26.560 in Iowa was like Mars. So it wasn't on my 84 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:30.399 game plan, but I ended up. I love Philadelphia, the Eagles, 85 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:33.480 the Phillies and all the Philly things, but being in 86 00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:35.560 where I was raised was not a good place. It 87 00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:36.519 was a difficult place. 88 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:38.759 But it sounds like I taught you how to talk 89 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:41.639 to people and how to manage conflict, and you know 90 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:43.120 how to how to make friends with people. 91 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:47.120 Yeah, that was as that's also part of the book. 92 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:51.600 But it was very, very significant to survive who was 93 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:52.360 a survival attack. 94 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:54.600 Had I been much taller, may not have made a difference. 95 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:56.800 But my hair was so satiny. 96 00:04:57.319 --> 00:04:59.639 If you if you picture the baby's blanket that has 97 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.360 like satin on the edge, like a light blue blanket, 98 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:03.560 and it's so soft. 99 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:05.959 That's what my hair was like. Was my bangs were like. 100 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:08.759 And anybody passed me on the street in a hallway 101 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:10.720 where I knew them not they would pat my head 102 00:05:10.759 --> 00:05:13.560 like this down on my forehead, trove me nuts. 103 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:17.279 It's a little kid thing. But there's a story I 104 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:18.040 think it's in the book. 105 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:21.720 But when I got to the high school, my father feared 106 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:23.600 for my life. My mother cried when she knew I 107 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.759 was going to Germantown. But I went in the men's room, 108 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:30.360 the boys room the first day between classes, and there 109 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:32.720 were three big black guys in the school. A fellow 110 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:36.000 named Friedman Washington about six foot four, which put him about, 111 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:39.000 I don't know, sixteen inches taller than me. And he 112 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:41.279 was known as a great grandson of a slave. And 113 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:43.680 he was a mean character. And I did my thing 114 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:45.439 at the urinal. As I was getting ready to leave, 115 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:48.800 I washed my hands on a hero fella. Say hey, like, 116 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:52.319 that's freemanly and he says, come here. So I turn 117 00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:54.279 around and he says, give me a cigarette. Well, give 118 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:57.319 me smoke, like I don't have any smokes, right, and 119 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:00.199 so he said give me smoke like I really mean it. 120 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:02.160 So I walked over to him. I said, if I 121 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:03.319 had to smoke, you could have it. 122 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:05.720 So he sticks his finger in my pocket and I 123 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:07.519 have a box of sun made raisins. 124 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:09.839 He thinks it's a box of like Lucky Strike. 125 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:12.639 So I pull it out and I opened it and 126 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:15.680 I say, it's just raisins. So he puts his hand 127 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:17.399 and so I pours him in his hand and he 128 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.680 tasted him and he said, looks at his boy. He says, hey, raisins. Raisins. 129 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:22.759 So I said, listen, you keep these raisins I'll bring 130 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:24.040 you some more Raisins tomorrow. 131 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:25.639 He says, okay, Raisins, you do that. 132 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:28.839 So he became my protector and I was Raisins, and 133 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:32.040 he helped me get through school, you know, unscathed. And 134 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:34.360 a few months later there was a fight that broke 135 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:37.040 out in one of these wide hallways schools built nineteen fourteen, 136 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:40.160 so high rooms and old columns, and as I was 137 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:42.000 trying to get past it, one of the guys reached 138 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:44.000 out for me, and somebody else ran on the edge 139 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:48.120 of pace said no, no, no, he Freeman's boy. So he 140 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:50.920 saved my bake without knowing it. So that's the concept. Now, 141 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:54.839 I called recruit everybody every day and you don't know 142 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:57.120 that it's going to work. But in counterintelligence, too worked 143 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.000 an awful lot. But that was the principle anyway. 144 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:02.600 And so you went to college in Iowa and you 145 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:03.360 had no no, no, no. 146 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:05.639 I went to Penn State. I did not go to 147 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:09.519 gymnastics at Iowa. I went to Penn State, and I did. 148 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:12.920 I did some gymnastics, but I went through college in 149 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:15.399 three years. I studied very hard, I took extra credits. 150 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:18.120 I had no money, so the money I saved for 151 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:21.319 my fourth year from being a boy Scout counselor at 152 00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:22.120 the Council camps. 153 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:23.759 Philadelphia had a lot of boy Scouts. 154 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:26.240 I saved that money up and I had enough for 155 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:29.040 four years college, but I want to graduate in three. 156 00:07:29.079 --> 00:07:31.639 I took the last year's money and put it toward 157 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:33.920 tuition at law school and I went to Villanova Lodge 158 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:34.800 just outside of Philly. 159 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:38.040 So that was it was a big deal. 160 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:40.920 And you had some conception that you wanted to go 161 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:43.439 into law enforcement pretty early on, right. 162 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:47.959 What I did not exactly, but what I did have 163 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:52.000 was an early life which gave me the straight and narrow. 164 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:55.360 My parents were honest, they were decent. 165 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:57.319 I mean, my father joke that if you ever went 166 00:07:57.360 --> 00:07:59.800 through a stop sign, there would be a police officer 167 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:02.199 right there. That's not a reason not to go through 168 00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:04.120 a stuff signed, but it tells you the mentality. 169 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:05.160 But it was straight. 170 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:08.360 Now, in my neighborhood, if you could escape without having 171 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:10.680 a criminal record, you were you were fortunate. 172 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:12.639 There will be fights all the time. 173 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:14.839 All the boys would have one of their front teeth 174 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:17.439 would be chipped like a little v and I swore 175 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:19.600 I was going to survive childhood out of chipped tooth, 176 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:23.240 which means no fights and whatever. But so that was 177 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:25.000 that was a big deal for me. I had no 178 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:27.639 idea that was going to be important for an FBI application, 179 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:30.199 not just having no criminal record, but leading this straight 180 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:30.720 and narrow. 181 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:32.600 It was actually when I was in law school. 182 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:36.559 I died my last year at Penn State. I had 183 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:39.600 I've been accepted at Villanova and George Washington and a 184 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:42.360 couple other places. So I talked to the dean of 185 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:44.279 men at the law school and I said, I want 186 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:46.720 to come money for tuition, but I got a I 187 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:49.039 don't know where I'm going to stay. My parents lived 188 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:51.440 in Cherry Hill, which was a long ride there. I 189 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:54.000 couldn't afford an apartment. So he sent me to the 190 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:58.159 dean of men undergraduate and he said, go see this man. 191 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:02.240 So the next Friday, I hitchhiked from Penn State down 192 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:05.080 to Philadelphia and out to Villanova and I met with 193 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:07.960 him and Joe Bevloqua, a little guy and you know 194 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:09.960 me for a while, he said, look, you're big enough, 195 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:12.519 you're strong enough. Would you like a counselorship? So I 196 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:14.679 became a dorm counselor. So for the next three years 197 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:16.440 that was room and board, which. 198 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:17.279 Saved my bacon. 199 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:20.879 But having that, you know, not intuition, but the inspiration 200 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:24.279 to succeed. So I was in my last year of 201 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:28.159 law school and people were coming to the school from 202 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:32.600 law firms, from the various alphabet government organizations, the sec FCC. 203 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:36.039 They all want lawyers who just graduated law school. Of course, 204 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:38.480 the top flight law firms, the white shoes law firms. 205 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:41.799 They really only wanted people what they called a law review, 206 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:43.840 the top five or ten in the class out of 207 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:47.360 one hundred and fifty. But so I didn't know what 208 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:49.399 I was going to do at that point, this be 209 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:51.639 a lawyer someplace I had never the first day I 210 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:53.480 started law school, I had never even met. 211 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:55.279 A lawyer, did not know a lawyer. 212 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:57.840 And most people there their fathers were lawyers, or there 213 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:00.639 were father's own businesses where they one of their sons 214 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:02.240 to go to law school to learn how to think 215 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:04.559 or learn how to organize themselves. 216 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:08.960 Mine was a survival deal. So I had been at 217 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:09.519 Penn State. 218 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:11.919 I was a second base in the men's glee club, 219 00:10:12.200 --> 00:10:14.519 which was a wonderful experience. Hopefully the three years at 220 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:17.240 Penn State was great. But I sat Sudbi side a 221 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:19.600 guy who was became a good friend. His name was 222 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:22.440 Bill Gutteau. And in my dorm my third year of 223 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:24.600 law school, a fellow knocked on the door wearing a 224 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:27.440 business suit and he said he was with military intelligence. 225 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:29.399 Asked me if I knew Bill Gutteau, and I said, 226 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:31.919 bood beside him as the second base for a couple 227 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:34.480 of years. And they said, well, he's in the military. 228 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:37.200 He's in a military base in Turkey. And he got 229 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:40.120 into the military and I went in a language school 230 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:42.600 and learned Turkish. And he was going to move up 231 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:45.840 to be the translator for the commandant, which means he 232 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:48.080 needed a higher clearance. So he needed to get more 233 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:50.519 names and more people. So from three years before he 234 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:52.679 somehow dug into his brain and got my name. The 235 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:55.440 guy stood beside from the glee club, so he was 236 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:57.480 a good guy. Didn't spoke pot, didn't get drunk. He 237 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:00.799 be a decent fellow. And I spoke with this pill 238 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:03.200 about an hour and a half and I was wondered 239 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:05.120 why he didn't wear uniform if he was in the army, 240 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:07.799 but it was army intelligence. So an hour and a 241 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:09.480 half later he said, you know, this is the first 242 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:12.080 time I ever interviewed someone where I felt like I 243 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:14.919 was one being interviewed. He said, would you consider a 244 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:18.440 career in military intelligence? They offered me a job like 245 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:21.639 right there. I thought, gee, that's interesting, and he said, oh, 246 00:11:21.639 --> 00:11:23.080 that's right. You're in law school. The place for he 247 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:25.679 was the FBI. And that was the first time you 248 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:27.480 even thought of it. I had watched that from zimbalists 249 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:30.080 in the FBI when I was younger, and the police 250 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:31.879 shows in general, but it never occurred to me to 251 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:34.799 carry a badge or have a gun. I only had 252 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:37.840 like firearms training with rifles at boy scout camps. 253 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:38.919 Nothing, you know. Twenty two. 254 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:43.080 So a few a couple of weeks later, someone from 255 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:46.240 the FBI Philadelphia office came to the school law school 256 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.399 and he had one hundred and fifty people in his class. 257 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:51.639 I guess at the time were probably six or seven women. 258 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:53.360 This was nineteen seventy one. 259 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:55.200 Anyway. 260 00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:58.240 So he started to speak about the bureau and what 261 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:01.519 they did, why they needed lawyers, account and whatever, and 262 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:04.200 finally someone that raised the hand and they said, do 263 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:07.759 you have a visual requirement and he said, yes, we do. 264 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:12.440 It's twenty forty correctable at twenty twenty, which at which 265 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:14.519 point one hundred and forty six guies got up and 266 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:16.159 walked out of the class and the four of us 267 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:19.600 left with four of us left with good vision. So 268 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:22.440 and I was one at twenty fifteen vision at the time. 269 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:25.480 So I filled out the application and I got hired 270 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:26.840 in October. I went into the bureau. 271 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:30.120 There was also like a heart requirement at FBI. 272 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:32.960 Right there was was there was was like five eight 273 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:35.519 five eight and a half. It was mister Hoover's height, 274 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:38.159 so he wanted to have everybody his height or taller, 275 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:42.480 which whatever else you may say about them. Man he 276 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:45.399 got a lot of big agents who could arrest bad guys. 277 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:48.919 But later on when women came in in the seventy 278 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:52.320 three and four that timeframe, I trained many of them. 279 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:55.559 I was. I did, really it was really good. 280 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:58.159 I have one older brother, so I didn't have any 281 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:00.080 girls growing up with other than people I knew in 282 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:03.840 the neighborhood. But so the the idea had women in 283 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:06.399 the bureau, I knew was a good thing. And not 284 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:10.120 to sound despicable, but we had a case where there 285 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:13.799 was a tube wasn't a sewer pipe, but that size 286 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:15.960 we had to get through that tube down to here, 287 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.519 and it was a female agent who was about five 288 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:21.639 five when they had still turned the requirement for height off, 289 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:23.879 and that knocked a lot of women at five eight. 290 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:27.480 I mean a man to be parallel with what how 291 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:29.159 told a man would have to be like six three 292 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:31.240 or four for women five eight with percentage of how 293 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:33.279 many women that fall. But when they when they got 294 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:38.000 rid of the height requirement entirely, and this she squeezed 295 00:13:38.039 --> 00:13:40.399 through this thing and got whatever we needed. And so 296 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:42.399 it was good to have a smaller person. Plus they're smart, 297 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:45.159 they trained, they know defensive tactics, they can shoot, so 298 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:49.600 those things were important anyway. So I yeah, I was 299 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:53.000 in the FBI and it was extraordinary career for twenty 300 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:54.919 nine years. 301 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.320 I And so you go to Quantico, go to the academy. 302 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:01.639 What was your first assignment with the. 303 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:05.840 FBI before you get there, I'm not My point is 304 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:07.240 not to correct you, but I want to like the 305 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.759 record straight. Yeah, I enter on duty in October nineteen 306 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.600 seventy one, so I was in until the end of 307 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.519 two thousand. If I've been retired twenty six years, I'm 308 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:19.200 my last birthday a couple of weeks Agar was seventy 309 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:22.000 nine years old. Every morning I do forty five minutes 310 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:25.559 of yoga stretching, I do fifty push ups, one hundred 311 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:27.720 sit ups, I do five miles and a bicycle and 312 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:29.360 every year I do a handstand. 313 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:31.000 I do handstand every month. 314 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:32.399 But I have a friend who takes a picture of 315 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:35.320 my handstand every birthday and I post it. 316 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.360 People say, is that you? Is that you? Yeah, it's me. 317 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:39.240 It's anyway. 318 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:42.600 So handstands are show your handstand, but handstands are a 319 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:46.480 good thing. When I do the exercise, people say, oh, 320 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:48.320 your shoulder is going to collapse. You're gonna hurt yourself, 321 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:53.960 but you know not yet. Anyway, this, uh you can 322 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:54.759 see this from there? 323 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.799 Yeah, yeah, yeah, you set me that photo. 324 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:01.759 Yeah, send that photo. Yeah, it's a handstand. There's some 325 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:06.759 place anyway. At seventy nine'm happy to do that. So 326 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:08.759 when I entered on doing the Bureau, there was no 327 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:13.120 FBI Academy. The FBI Academy was beginning to be under construction, 328 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:15.840 so our classes were in the old post office, which 329 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.679 became was an old post I think is now Trump 330 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:21.480 Tower or Trump something, but it's been many things in 331 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:24.399 the meantime. Was built in I think eighteen ninety six, 332 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.360 and it decided which costs moremony to knock it down 333 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:30.840 than to you know, remodel it, So that's what was done. 334 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:32.639 But we were in the old post office. For training. 335 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:34.720 We go to Quantico for a couple of weeks every 336 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:39.000 month for firearms training and some defensive tactics. 337 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:40.600 But so there was no academy. 338 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.519 The FBI Hoover building across the street from the old 339 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:45.600 Twass office was one hundred foot hole in the ground 340 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:50.000 and it was under construction. So I preceded the FBI academy. 341 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:51.799 I preceded the Hoover building, which is now it's so 342 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:53.679 old to getting rid of it, you know, Thank good, 343 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:55.320 it's not getting me because I'm old. 344 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:57.679 But something like that for retirement. 345 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:01.720 And also mister Hoover's alive, so he died in I 346 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:03.879 guess may have seventy two, so I was in for 347 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:05.679 about a year when he was still alive. That's a 348 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:09.039 demarcation today. But when I started, my first assignment was 349 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:14.679 in Los Angeles and the first agent's older agents I met. 350 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:16.480 They were the case agents so on Mab Barker and 351 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:19.200 Babyface Nelson, so that was their era. 352 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:22.519 Now I'm a cold warrior. So people coming in new now. 353 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:24.320 In fact, what makes you really feel old is we 354 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:28.000 have a retired agent's luncheons. There's organ the chapters organization 355 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:30.960 all around the country. And the agent's retiring now in 356 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:33.360 twenty twenty six. They came into the bureau like two 357 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:35.759 thousand and three, two thousand and five. I've have twenty 358 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:39.840 years in so the agent's retiring now ended on duty in. 359 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.960 The bureau after I had already retired. That would make 360 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:46.080 you feel but I'm not. 361 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.240 I don't feel it. I feel like I'm forty seven. 362 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.000 I do a lot of things that are still active. 363 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:52.559 I have five children. I do all things all the time. 364 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:55.080 I traveled around the world. I recovered stole an art 365 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:59.279 Impressionist paintings. I had signature at analysis all around the place. 366 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:02.759 But anyway, so I started in Los Angeles and that 367 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.400 time had to go to the first office agent. You 368 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:07.440 were in your first office for one year to the day, 369 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:11.880 and you learned the trade of the FBI, how to investigate, 370 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:15.039 arrest people, to cases, and you you know, someone teaches 371 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:16.839 are the ropes, and then when you get to a 372 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:19.240 second field office, you pretty much know what you're doing. 373 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.599 And you're more competent and they've changed the system now, 374 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:24.039 but that was how it was then. So I was 375 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:25.400 first office in Los Angeles. 376 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:28.599 So tell us this story about how you joined the 377 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:31.279 Black Panther Party. 378 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:36.680 Uh. This podcast is brought to you in part by Stash. 379 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:38.920 You don't accomplish a mission by winging it. You have 380 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:42.000 a plan, you stick to the fundamentals, and you stay disciplined. 381 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.599 Where conditions changed, investing should be no different. That's where 382 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:48.160 Stash comes in. 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Investment in advisory 403 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:56.640 and services offered by Stash Investments, LLC and SEC registered 404 00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:00.920 investment advisor. Investing involves risk. Offer is subjects to terms 405 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.200 and conditions. Thank you. All right, think about this for 406 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:06.759 a second. Every guy has those go to pieces, right, 407 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:09.119 the shoes that go with everything, that one pair of 408 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:12.000 jeans that fits just right, that T shirt that always 409 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:14.480 looks clean no matter what you pair it with. You 410 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:16.759 don't have to overthink those pieces. You just grab them 411 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.519 and they work every time. But most guys are missing 412 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:21.839 the one thing in their lineup, and that's jewelry. 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Please support the 448 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:01.240 show and let them know that we send you and 449 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:03.079 thank you GLD for supporting the show. 450 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:12.680 I love gold Well, fortunately you've already heard about Germantown 451 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:15.039 and Freeman Washington. 452 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:17.319 In Los Angeles. 453 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:21.680 They would put you on a rotation every four months. 454 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:22.839 Every three months you would. 455 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:28.720 Switch squads, so you learned about bank robberies versus kidnapping 456 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:32.240 versus other other kinds of investigations for aud et cetera. 457 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:35.319 And then you moved to the next squad. So the 458 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:38.680 second squad I was on was an extremist squad. We 459 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:41.960 called them one to fifty sevens, but extremists. They had 460 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:44.400 La Rasa, which was doing some bad things. They had 461 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:47.400 the Nation of Islam under Lewis Farakhon, we're doing some 462 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:51.039 bad things. There were white hate groups of various sorts. 463 00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:53.640 There's one called Youth Action where they were they had 464 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.160 a plan to kill President Nixon at his Western White 465 00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.400 House in San Clementy. I was the inside guy on 466 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:04.200 that that assassination effort. But there was also the Black 467 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:06.920 Panthers and a couple of years before there had been 468 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.480 a shootout between the Black Panthers and the Los Angeles 469 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:14.319 Police Department and they had maybe a couple hundred shots exchanged. 470 00:22:14.359 --> 00:22:15.799 No one was hit, a lot of holes in the 471 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:20.880 brick walls around them, but they had very difficult connections 472 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:23.720 with anybody involved in law enforcement. And there was a 473 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:29.039 group within the Panthers which came alive as an organizational 474 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.880 structure within them, and they called themselves the Nation of Nigritia, 475 00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:36.960 and Nigresia was a made up word, made up name 476 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:42.240 of various black African nations, and they said we are 477 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:46.480 a nation which is all the slaves who were brought 478 00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:49.480 against their will to the United States, many who don't 479 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.799 know where their families had come from in Africa, but 480 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:55.839 who are in the US for generations. And we ourselves 481 00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:58.559 are a nation without land. We are the nation of 482 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:01.799 Ni Grecia. And the interesting thing was there were two 483 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:05.039 major leaders of the Panthers at the time, Huey Newton, 484 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.000 who was in jail in northern California and Eldridge Cleaver 485 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:10.880 who had escaped to the US and was in Algeria 486 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.799 as wanted fugitive, but he was living in Algeria, and 487 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:17.960 all of the people in the nation in I Grecia 488 00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:23.039 were Cleaver Faction people, which was also curious. So if 489 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.599 you remember the movie The French Connection, Gene Ackman, he's 490 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.519 Popeye Doyle. He's in a pretty gritty restaurant and a 491 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:33.119 table there the guys who were actually doing the drugs deal, 492 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:35.799 Frog won Frog two, Sal and his wife at that 493 00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.960 table and you know, living it up and Gene Hackman 494 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:42.519 and his partner the later was in Jaws, I forget 495 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:43.599 his name, but his partner. 496 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:44.640 They looked at the. 497 00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:47.160 Table and they looked and they said, that table's dirty, 498 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.599 Like there's something wrong with that table. Those people that 499 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:54.279 just that sixth cop sense. So all the agents in 500 00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:56.880 the squad who were doing in screamers matters for years 501 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.359 and years, they looked at Nation of Na Grecia and 502 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:01.839 they said, it's it's something wrong here. It's the same 503 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.599 six cop sense. We had a number of black agents 504 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:07.480 in the office, but they were all known in the 505 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:10.680 community outreach and that sort of thing. So I went 506 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:13.480 into my supervisor, I took the case. Agent main guy 507 00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:15.839 had the ticket on the case for the black Panther party. 508 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.240 I went into the supervisor's office and I said, you 509 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:25.240 know I can do this, And I said, I my past, 510 00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:28.359 and I told my history of Germantown, even about Freeman Washington. 511 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.319 But growing up, I was in the track team. Track 512 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:33.440 team had a Germantown High had like one hundred and 513 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:35.720 fifty five kids on the team. There were six white 514 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:39.079 boys on the team. As a little kid, I realized 515 00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:40.799 I wasn't going to run faster than anybody. But what 516 00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:43.640 I did have was gymnastic muscles. The pectoral muscles are 517 00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:45.799 the ones enabled to do pole vaulting. That's where you 518 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:48.240 pull yourself up on the poll and go over. So 519 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:50.960 I was a pole vaulter. On the team. So I 520 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.839 ended up being elected president of the student government. And 521 00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:56.680 as I said before, somebody black had a vote for me, 522 00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.799 but the track team was on my side, and the swimming 523 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:03.680 team and the soccer team. So anyway, but that's how 524 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:09.279 I got along really with everybody. So something that I'm 525 00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:11.519 almost reluctant to say because of the nature of what 526 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:15.319 goes with it, but your audience would appreciate this. There 527 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.279 was a fellow sat two seats away from me in 528 00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:21.839 my class on alphabetical basis. His name was Bob Cosby, 529 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:24.839 and he was Bill Cosby's younger brother by ten years. 530 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:29.680 So Bill would start his routines by coming to our 531 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:32.599 morning assembly session with a whole auditorium full of kids 532 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:35.440 giving out notifications and you know, news of the day 533 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:37.920 and whatever, and he would come on and the first 534 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.839 routines he ever had, like where the Lord is telling 535 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:44.599 Noah to build the arc and you cubits and it's 536 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:48.000 the Lord Noah and right, that all came the first 537 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:51.640 time we ever gave those presentations. Those routines were in 538 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.759 front of the Germantown High School morning assembly sessions. So 539 00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:56.880 I knew him pretty well because that was the President's 540 00:25:57.160 --> 00:25:59.079 I had to introduce him. We talked to him, but 541 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:01.559 because his younger and the fact that a lot of 542 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:04.519 his early routines it was him picking on his younger brother, 543 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:07.319 but in a very humorous way. Were about the projects. 544 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:09.000 And the Cosby family had a lot more money than 545 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:11.640 my family had. I can tell you that Bob would 546 00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:13.559 come to school every day with a white dress shirt. 547 00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:14.440 And I had won for. 548 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:17.640 Christmas and for Easter, right, so I didn't have what 549 00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:20.519 they had anyway, So I knew him in that regard. 550 00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:24.880 So I told my supervisor of my past, and they 551 00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:25.920 looked at me carefully. 552 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:27.519 They couldn't possibly believe it, even though. 553 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:30.519 I had pretty platinum hair and a six to one 554 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:31.519 blond hair, blue eyed guy. 555 00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:33.039 So I went and I said, I can do this. 556 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.240 So I went out to Sanfraderna Valley State University which 557 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:41.119 is now cal State Northridge, and I learned the campus. 558 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:44.880 I went to several sociology classes, you know, one hundred 559 00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:46.799 easy classes for undred graduate classes. 560 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:48.000 I met some of the. 561 00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:51.119 Professors that appeared though I was an auditor auditing the classes, 562 00:26:51.160 --> 00:26:53.480 just sitting on them, knowing there was you know, taking 563 00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:56.519 names or having any id that needed I went to 564 00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:58.400 the cafeteria and met the people there. I learned the 565 00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:03.240 streets and the whole campus. I got alias identification. I'm 566 00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:06.559 Wayne Barnes. My mother's last name. My maiden name was Johnson. 567 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.119 And they always say your first undercover role, you have 568 00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:11.200 your own first name, and you use your mother's maid 569 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.319 names your last name. So I became Wayne Johnson. I 570 00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:16.480 had a Dots in two forty Z, the bullet shaped 571 00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:18.000 car of the year. We had a new license plate 572 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:20.799 or Wayne Johnson. I got a driver's license for Wayne Johnson, 573 00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:26.000 and so I drove down the Panther headquarters in South LA, 574 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.319 parked right in front of the building with my nice 575 00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:31.599 sparkling new car, not dressed like an fbigen but in 576 00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:35.160 jeans and the great College T shirt I had bought 577 00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:36.839 it and washed it a few times, would faded out, 578 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:38.759 looked like I've been around for a while. So I'd 579 00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:40.960 already been out of high school, college, in law school, 580 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:43.119 and had passed a new Jersey bar. And now I 581 00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:45.839 was assuming the role of a graduate student at San 582 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:46.720 Feranda Valley State. 583 00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:47.759 So I went in. 584 00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:49.599 There's a big guy behind the desk, and I said, 585 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:50.799 you know, my name is Wayne Johnson. 586 00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:51.319 I'm doing a. 587 00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.759 Master's thesis at San Fverda Valley State. I have to 588 00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:57.200 do one on an American ethnic group. I picked you guys, 589 00:27:57.200 --> 00:27:59.079 what do you think? He stood up, gave me a 590 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:01.000 big toothy smile for to stay out. He said, welcome 591 00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:03.599 to the Black Panthers. So I became a card carrying 592 00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:06.759 blond or blue eyed white guy as a Black Panther 593 00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:12.400 party member, which was exciting, but agents before I left 594 00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:15.000 to go to the South LA. The last thing that 595 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:16.680 case Aaytan said is you know, if they knew what 596 00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:18.480 you were, they'd choot you just as soon as look 597 00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:21.680 at you. That was this party advice. 598 00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:24.319 Crushed. 599 00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:29.000 So anyway, so in the Nation Night Gresia, which I 600 00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:32.359 picked as my specific topic. They didn't know why, but 601 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:35.119 that was part of it. And they would have meetings 602 00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:38.160 that the High Priestess of Ni Gresia, she also lived 603 00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:41.519 in the Compton area, and she would clear a dining room, 604 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:44.279 put about twenty some chairs five by six in rows 605 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:46.839 of folding chairs. People would sit there, have meetings talking 606 00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:49.039 about you know, lunch for kids and trying to get 607 00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:51.839 What they did was they tried to get n Gresia 608 00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:57.400 recommended recommended, recognized recognized by various other Black ay the 609 00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:00.599 African nations. By the time I was there and that 610 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:04.799 time span in seventy two, four Black African nations had 611 00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:07.599 recognized them, and one of them, Senegal, even gave them 612 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:09.640 a couple of acres of land in case I wanted 613 00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:11.720 to build an ambassy or have some official building to 614 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:17.079 be quote a nation. So what they wanted was recognition 615 00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:20.279 from the UN, but they wanted to be a nation, 616 00:29:20.839 --> 00:29:23.119 which would have been a unique situation nation of that land. 617 00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:25.759 But there's some really as we've seen from the World Cup, 618 00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:28.759 there's some really small countries that are out there, and 619 00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:30.640 so they would have a lot of thousands of people 620 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:32.880 all around the country. And there was a chapter of 621 00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:35.720 the Nation a Grecia, and all of the places in 622 00:29:35.160 --> 00:29:38.079 the majority of black cities in the country that had 623 00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:40.720 Black panther parties, they all had sections there. So I 624 00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:43.880 took notes every other Tuesday night, I think it was 625 00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:46.839 for a couple hours, and I would take notes like crazy, 626 00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:49.839 like I was the secretary for the Nation of a Grecia, 627 00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:52.000 to takeing notes and giving the records of what took 628 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:52.599 place the minutes. 629 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:54.519 Meanwhile, I'm writing this stuff down. So the next morning, 630 00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:55.160 I can. 631 00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:56.799 Write a memo in the FBI what happened to the 632 00:29:57.079 --> 00:29:58.759 Na Grecia thing the night before? It goes into a 633 00:29:58.759 --> 00:30:02.079 file old purpose which the other they didn't know about. 634 00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:07.319 So about the third meeting, the High priests came down 635 00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:09.359 a hallway with two big guys behind her and a 636 00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:11.880 fella beside her about twenty years old. I looked a 637 00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:15.400 lot like the Nation of Ni Grecia High Priestess, and 638 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:17.440 she said, Wayne, this is my son, Rodney. He's a 639 00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:22.359 student at Safronana Valley State. Like, oh shit, this could 640 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.160 have been the end of me, right, I mean, I 641 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:29.359 was expecting a test, but this was pretty bad. So 642 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.480 he asked me about my classes, you know, who I had, 643 00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:35.839 professors and things, which who was vetting me? If I 644 00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:37.920 had been real with what I said I was, it 645 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:39.319 would have been no problem. And I had to have 646 00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:42.440 those same interests as part of my backstopping, which I did, 647 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:44.359 but at that point it was the spur of the moment. 648 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.519 So I turned the tables on him as quickly as 649 00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:49.759 I could, and I said, who do you have? 650 00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:52.119 What are you have? You have sociology? 651 00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:55.359 So he mentioned one fellow who I'd seen around, but 652 00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:57.519 then another fellow who I saw in the four hundred class, 653 00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:01.920 the graduate class. And it wasn't that I disagreed with 654 00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:05.039 him when he was giving the class, but I listened 655 00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:08.359 to him carefully than others. And the Rodney, Oh yeah, 656 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:12.640 his son was Rodney. He mentioned this guy and I said, 657 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:14.839 oh yeah. I said, he's an old, fat, bald, white 658 00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:19.519 Jewish guy, has no idea what he's talking about. And 659 00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:23.759 the three faces there, four faces. They just stared at 660 00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:28.200 me and their mouths were open, and I had no idea. 661 00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:31.039 So I looked around and said what and he said, 662 00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:33.640 we've never heard a white person to fame another white 663 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.119 person before, and so they don't get out very much. 664 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:42.440 That's pretty far off, but that was really the test. 665 00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:45.160 So I powered around with Rodney. Two or three meetings later, 666 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:47.759 I would see him afterwards, we wake out to a 667 00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:50.240 bar or someplace, and it was just all, you know, 668 00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:53.240 I got the right credit cards for Bean Johnson. So 669 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:56.240 at one point a meeting a few couple months later, 670 00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:57.720 he said, you know what this is all about, don't you? 671 00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:00.880 And I said, they were trying to do good for 672 00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:03.400 the community. We're trying to get recognized. And he said, 673 00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:05.119 he said all that yes, but we want to get 674 00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:08.359 recognized by the UN. If the UN recognizes US as 675 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:12.599 a nation, then we will have Eldridge Cleaver come back 676 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:15.400 to the US as our ambassador to the United Nations 677 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:18.599 for night Gretia, and he'll have dipomat a community. 678 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.799 And he won't be arrested by the FBI. That was 679 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:24.079 the plan. So I jumped for joy with him, like 680 00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:24.720 that'd be great. 681 00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:27.240 We're doing high fives, we're running circles like that'd be 682 00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:28.319 wonderful for the organization. 683 00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:28.960 You know. 684 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:30.519 I'm thinking, like I got to get out of here, 685 00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:31.839 like now I know what it's all about. 686 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:33.640 So I wrote it up the next morning. 687 00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:35.680 It became what we call a letterhead memorandum if you're 688 00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:38.480 a letterhead on top a disseminable piece of paper, just 689 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:43.279 paragraphs explaining what it taken place. And it went off, 690 00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:46.119 went through the Bureau, went to headquarters, went the State Department, 691 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:48.599 went to the White House, and the Bureau was very 692 00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:50.480 happy with it. Not happy with that it was happening, 693 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:53.200 but happy that we had someone inside. I don't know 694 00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:55.920 if they ever knew it was a white guy back 695 00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:58.279 at headquarters. I don't think they assume they presume I 696 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:00.960 was black, but you know Barnes. If you see a 697 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:06.200 name with Barnes on a NBA shirt or a NFL shirt, 698 00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:09.519 the guy's black, who's wearing a Barnes thing? So a 699 00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:11.640 fifth all the needs that I had, even the name 700 00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:16.839 would have worked. So anyway, part of my backstopping was 701 00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:20.599 the Bill Cosby story, and the story with him was 702 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:24.599 that when he he had been on I Spy I 703 00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:26.359 Guess was the first TV show he was on with 704 00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:30.119 Robert Kolpe as a camera as a CIA guy, and 705 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:33.559 then he had he set up The Cosby Kids, which 706 00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:35.880 was the cartoon TV show. 707 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:38.920 Fat Albert was in my gym class. 708 00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:41.920 He was about three times as wide as most people, 709 00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:43.519 and he could be on the offensive line, but not 710 00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:45.759 the defensive line. He couldn't go forward, but it was 711 00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:47.720 wide enough to stop people. Who was a fellow in 712 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:50.160 the cos because named Junior Barnes, I knew him personally. 713 00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:52.480 He sat beside me gym class, and there were others. 714 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:55.920 So Cosby created the Cosby because he was literally picking 715 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:59.119 friends of his brother and there were real people modeled 716 00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:01.640 after them. And at one point he said, you know, 717 00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:04.720 if there was what the debate was whether we would. 718 00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:06.000 Have one white kid and the cosmic kids. 719 00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:08.159 And he said, if there was a white kid in 720 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:12.119 the cosmic kids would be modeled after you. But he 721 00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:15.800 decided against it. Well, how's that for backstopping If you're 722 00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:19.119 telling people in the panthers the Cosby said this, and 723 00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:22.480 there's no Google, there's no Google, there's no web searching. 724 00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:24.760 You know, you just have to believe it. But if 725 00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:27.079 it weren't true, that Samerity to say it would be 726 00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:31.199 right off the scope. So that worked well for me, 727 00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.719 and that was how I was able to survive it. 728 00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:35.880 So I sent my memo out and it went to 729 00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:39.840 every place that needed to know, and I was told 730 00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.920 that the Ambassador to the United Nations for the US 731 00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:47.079 at the time was George H. W. Bush, and he 732 00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:50.599 got the memo and he personally walked it down the 733 00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.760 hallways in the building to all four of the ambassadors 734 00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:57.280 for the Black African nations that had recognized Nigritia, and 735 00:34:57.400 --> 00:34:59.360 he stood there as they read it. Instead of having 736 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:01.400 this reached their in box and have them read it sometime, 737 00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:04.599 this as important to the US security. So he stood 738 00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:07.679 there as they read it. And the especially Senegal, which 739 00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:12.079 had given some land and the nation of Ni Greecia 740 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:16.400 slowly slipped away. They went through recognition and that would 741 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:18.000 be the end of the story, which is a decent 742 00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:18.840 story in itself. 743 00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:22.000 And that was seventy two. So ten years later or. 744 00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:25.559 So, I was in the Washington Field Office. I was 745 00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:30.199 a working counter intelligence at that point against the KGB, 746 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:36.039 the political line of the KGPR, and I was debriefing defectors. 747 00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:38.920 And that's a special niche I mentioned earlier. 748 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:41.159 We have to have skill in writing and have to 749 00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:47.199 have the stories, you know, pan out. So one of 750 00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:53.440 the individuals had been a Soviet official in Morocco and 751 00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:56.960 when he defected, the the agency debrief them and the 752 00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:00.400 FBI debriefed them as well. So while I had him 753 00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:04.000 there across the table, I guess we'd gone to lunch. 754 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:07.039 He tried to talk about other non intel things at lunchtime. 755 00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:10.320 But I asked, I said, when you were in assigned 756 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:13.199 to Algeria, you know, a decade before. He said, did 757 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:15.559 he happen to come across the sky in Eldridge Cleaver? 758 00:36:16.360 --> 00:36:18.519 And he said, oh, yeah, yeah, And he said, oh, 759 00:36:18.519 --> 00:36:22.239 I've I've got a good story about Aldridge Cleaver. I said, well, 760 00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:23.639 this is a good story for you. This will be 761 00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:27.599 a great story for me. So he told the story, 762 00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:29.800 and he said, Eldrich Cleaver came into one of the receptions. 763 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:32.159 They have gall of cages all the time. He said, 764 00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:35.039 we know most people hate the Soviet Union, so anybody 765 00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:37.679 wanted to come into our evening bashes, we'd have them. 766 00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:41.599 So he came in and one night and he said. 767 00:36:41.639 --> 00:36:44.880 The odd thing is with medical technology in Russia. He said, 768 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.480 it's not very good compared to what you have in 769 00:36:46.519 --> 00:36:48.960 the US. He said, we had heard two things about him, 770 00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:52.280 both that he had syphilis and then he had a leprosy. 771 00:36:53.400 --> 00:36:55.239 I don't forget either, but they said, so no one 772 00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:58.079 wanted to shake his hand because all the Russian diplomats 773 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:00.880 and the people catering to it, they thought if they 774 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:02.599 shook his hand it might break off as they were 775 00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:04.119 talking to him, and they didn't want to have that happened. 776 00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:09.719 That's Russian medical knowledge. It's in nineteen seventy two. So 777 00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:15.159 he said. At one point through the evening he came 778 00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:17.239 to a Soviet deficienci I want to talk to someone 779 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:20.199 in the KGB, And that would have been this fellow 780 00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:24.840 who was our later to be our defector and they 781 00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:26.159 met in a room in the back and he said, 782 00:37:26.199 --> 00:37:28.159 I have a way of getting back to the US 783 00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:31.159 without being arrested by the FBI, and what I want 784 00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:35.000 is to have the KGB the Soviet Union supply me 785 00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:35.760 with weapons. 786 00:37:36.039 --> 00:37:38.719 And his term was so I can foment revolution in America. 787 00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:45.360 So the Russian, he said a telex to Moscow a 788 00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:47.880 couple of days later, came back and the answer was, 789 00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:50.360 we will give them the weapons, but first he must 790 00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:52.679 get back to the West without being arrested, and then 791 00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:55.559 we'll give them weapons to foement revolution. Now a picture 792 00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:58.400 this is in every major city in the country, especially 793 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:03.119 the black cities, Philip Baltimore, La, all those places that 794 00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:04.679 were obvious. 795 00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:06.079 CIA loved that. 796 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:10.239 I don't know what they did, but we got the information. 797 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:11.440 They didn't get that. I don't know how they would 798 00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:14.360 have gotten it. So anyway, but at that same moment 799 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:16.639 in time, George H. W. Bush was walking down the 800 00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:18.239 hallway in the UN and. 801 00:38:18.119 --> 00:38:18.679 The Nation n I. 802 00:38:18.760 --> 00:38:23.760 Greisha's recognition was withdrawn. So they didn't get their weapons. 803 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:26.760 But picture this if that operation hadn't taken place, that 804 00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:32.360 undercover case. If you think the riots in Minnesota recently 805 00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:37.079 and after George Floyd, even after Rodney King, picture people 806 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:40.480 with Koleshnerkov rifles in every major city in the country 807 00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:43.000 wanting to p foment revolution. What would that have looked like? 808 00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:46.559 And it's his own book, it's his own horror story. 809 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:50.639 But fortunately it didn't happen. Now, a number of years later, 810 00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:53.519 Frank Church, the senator from I think Tennessee, had the 811 00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:56.519 Church Committee, and he wanted to close the door on 812 00:38:56.559 --> 00:38:58.760 the FBI having to do fewer operations. He wanted a 813 00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:02.000 tighter leash. And everybody I talked to you said, if 814 00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:05.239 the Church Committee had been in season when my undercover 815 00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.559 operation taking place, they never would have allowed it. You know, 816 00:39:08.760 --> 00:39:12.079 there's no probable cause. It's not your six cop instinct. 817 00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:12.719 That's not enough. 818 00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:15.280 So it would have never existed. 819 00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:18.119 And I have you know, it makes me, you know, 820 00:39:18.360 --> 00:39:19.719 not want to go to sleep, and I thinking what 821 00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:20.400 might have happened? 822 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:22.960 But it didn't happen. But that was a that was 823 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:23.440 a big deal. 824 00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:26.960 What was the other case that you know? I think 825 00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:32.920 it's largely an un a documented assassination attempt on President Nixon. 826 00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:36.199 You said there's a white extremist group that was looking 827 00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:38.800 to kill the president yes. 828 00:39:40.119 --> 00:39:42.599 So I was a young agent. I think it was 829 00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:45.760 twenty four. I think it's the youngest you can be 830 00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:50.079 because I treated years in college. I was younger than 831 00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:51.920 I would have been having just gotten out of law school. 832 00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:54.079 The Bureau when they hire people, they want you to 833 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:56.519 be I think it's no less than twenty three or four, 834 00:39:57.079 --> 00:39:59.719 but they want you to have three years three years 835 00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:02.440 after college so you have some experience of life. 836 00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:05.079 So I managed to meet that. 837 00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:07.519 But fortunately I was still younger than most even out 838 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:09.920 of law school, which helped me on that particular case. 839 00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:15.840 So there was a fellow who was another Fellows hitchhiking 840 00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:20.159 across the country, and he was a white guy in 841 00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:23.039 his late twenties, and he was a rebel. 842 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:27.079 Rouser and he had a lot of personal confidence. 843 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:30.199 And when he got to LA there were chapters of 844 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:34.599 his organization which were called Youth Action, which I never 845 00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:36.760 heard of it before. Afterward, but it became a case 846 00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:39.760 from the squad because as he was hitchhiking across the country, 847 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:42.159 he would tell people who picked him up what he 848 00:40:42.199 --> 00:40:43.880 was going to do, that he had this organization where 849 00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:45.480 you're going to go get I'm sure he asked him 850 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:48.920 some upfront questions to make sure that they were not 851 00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:52.079 Nixon people, but like, we're going to go kill Nixon 852 00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:55.280 at Saint Clementy. So he had, you know, eighty people 853 00:40:55.360 --> 00:40:58.400 or so who were his followers, and their plan was 854 00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:00.920 to go to Sant Clementy with weapons and when Nixon 855 00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:05.559 was there. And this was the same timeframe, and interestingly enough, 856 00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:09.079 one evening on a Tuesday, I would be with the 857 00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:12.280 Nation night Grisia undercover as a black panther, and the 858 00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:15.800 very next night I was undercover with Youth Action planning 859 00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:16.760 to help kill Nixon. 860 00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:20.639 So it was an active first Office, I'll say that. 861 00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:23.960 So, as it turns out, they had an auditorium and 862 00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:26.199 they were going to get themselves together, a big flag 863 00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:29.840 on a on the curtains, and I was then posing 864 00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:30.760 as a person who was. 865 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:32.360 Not fully alert. 866 00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:36.920 Maybe I had a push cart with a bucket and 867 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:38.760 it was a fall spottom of the bucket where the 868 00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:42.679 FBI handy talkie was talking to the people out of 869 00:41:42.679 --> 00:41:45.559 the street. There were police officers and FBI there, and 870 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:47.400 we knew from what I had done undercover, what they 871 00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:50.039 were planning to do, and had records of it from 872 00:41:50.079 --> 00:41:52.480 others in general. But I was there on the inside 873 00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:55.159 so they could hear outside was taking place. And literally 874 00:41:55.239 --> 00:41:58.519 they were cheering up and it was like a soccer people. 875 00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:00.679 But it was like, you know, ok, hey, everybody up, 876 00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:02.199 we're going to go. And it's like you know the 877 00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:03.880 coach when it's halftime and you go back out to 878 00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:06.679 the field, the football field. You know, it's everybody go 879 00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:08.800 and you charge and you run outside. It was just 880 00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:13.760 about like that, and but everybody, the people outside in charge, 881 00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:15.760 they heard it and they came in and shut the 882 00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:18.519 whole thing down. And that took people away because that 883 00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:20.480 was the undercover guy. I was never involved with the 884 00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:23.880 rest or learning what happened, and eventually I was transferred 885 00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:26.159 to my second office, which was New York, so I 886 00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:28.480 lost all track of what had happened with that and 887 00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:29.079 where it went. 888 00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:32.079 But they didn't even the witness for anything. 889 00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:34.880 But that was attempt toous I don't and the public 890 00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:37.039 never heard about it unless I told this story. Now 891 00:42:37.079 --> 00:42:40.679 how many years later, it wouldn't be known. But that 892 00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:43.440 was you know, I was the right person at the 893 00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:44.840 right time for the right case. 894 00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:48.920 If upgrading your full sleep setup has been on the 895 00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:51.800 list for a while, ghost Beds fourth of July sale 896 00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:54.679 is the time to actually do it right Now. You 897 00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:57.559 can get two hundred and fifty dollars off mattress bundles, 898 00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:00.920 which means you can add cooling pillows, cooling sheets, or 899 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:03.960 an adjustable base and still come out well ahead of 900 00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:07.519 what you'd pay anywhere else. And as a Teamhouse listener, 901 00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:10.159 you get an extra ten percent off on top of 902 00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:14.320 that using the code House. 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That's 941 00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:33.760 q u i ncee dot com slash house for free 942 00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:37.400 shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns quints 943 00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:42.960 dot com slash house. And as your career went on, 944 00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:46.320 I mean you've had some other interesting detours. I mean, 945 00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:51.079 as you mentioned, you debriefed a lot of defectors and 946 00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:55.280 you got brought into this joint CIA FBI counterintelligence outfit. 947 00:45:56.519 --> 00:46:01.280 Yeah, that's a good, good scenario. The CIA and the 948 00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:06.000 FBI had never really gotten along. Well, they have offices 949 00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:09.559 in the United States. They're not all just abroad nickelled 950 00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:11.880 fr which is I think foreign resources, so. 951 00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:13.440 Off national resources. 952 00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:17.920 But yeah, so if a professor from Georgetown goes to 953 00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:21.159 a meeting in Moscow or in China, when they come back, 954 00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:24.039 well the FBI could do it. It's really the CIA's territory. 955 00:46:24.039 --> 00:46:26.639 Because the essence of the concept of what was interesting 956 00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:29.760 took place abroad. They'll interview someone and may have sources, 957 00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:33.199 but that's really the Cis Baily way. Essentially. The CIA 958 00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:35.920 at the time don't how much it's changed now. But 959 00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:38.360 they saw themselves as being like the Ivy League, and 960 00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:42.280 they saw the FBI is arresting thugs, bank robbers, and 961 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:44.320 they didn't think we would were the right people to 962 00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:48.159 do intelligence. But it was counter intelligence once we actually 963 00:46:48.159 --> 00:46:52.440 started recruiting intelligence officers. That gives the positive intelligence that 964 00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:56.760 the CIA was responsible for doing, usually abroad, but in 965 00:46:56.800 --> 00:46:57.239 the US. 966 00:46:57.280 --> 00:46:58.559 But when the FBI got. 967 00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:01.440 Good at recruiting people we had recruited. I worked the 968 00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:04.920 Eastern Bloc country and go back on that. I Spanish 969 00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:07.639 in high school, in French and college. One of those 970 00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:10.599 strange people that actually remembers things that I've taught. And 971 00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:13.480 they give you the Army Language Aptitude Test the ALAT 972 00:47:13.519 --> 00:47:17.519 during training. So they have to base it on Romance languages. 973 00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:20.559 They can't have Cyrillic or Chinese characters. It has to 974 00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:24.559 be American. You know, English language and for the grammar. 975 00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:28.320 So I scored well in the test. So when I 976 00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:30.599 was in New York for a few months. I got 977 00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:32.800 a call from people the headquarters saying, to the next 978 00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:35.199 high score in the language test, you can go to Monterey, 979 00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:38.719 California and learn Romanian for us. The first thing I 980 00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:40.280 did was get at a map and find out where 981 00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:44.920 Romania was. That was important anyway, So I went to 982 00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:52.480 Monterey for nine months and Spanish, French or six month Portuguese, Hungarian, Romanian. 983 00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:54.559 Romania has a lot of Slavic sounds in it, so 984 00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:56.800 it makes it more difficult than the straight Romance language, 985 00:47:56.800 --> 00:48:00.800 but it's Romance grammar. So after nine months I spoke Romanian. 986 00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:02.679 Should come up for biscuits as Limba and now I 987 00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:06.559 speak Romanian. So I was sent to a counterintelligence squad 988 00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:11.480 which had the major warsaw packed the block countries Romania, Czechisava, Capol, 989 00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:14.880 and Hungary, Bulgaria, and you learned some of the languages 990 00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:18.559 of all those countries. You're a bus at some point 991 00:48:18.599 --> 00:48:20.559 and there's a guy looks like a little guy Meastern Europe, 992 00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:21.480 and you go and. 993 00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:24.159 Say Este and no, no, no, no, no, no, Pal 994 00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:26.000 I'm less Spanol. 995 00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:29.480 You nappot Kievano, Hungarian, and you go through various languages 996 00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:31.920 and he said, oh yeah, and he speaks Serbo, right, 997 00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:36.480 gindobre pandu. So anyway, you can get his name and 998 00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:37.639 number and give it to one of the guys in 999 00:48:37.719 --> 00:48:39.840 the squad to go find him, which is very helpful 1000 00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:41.679 to speak at least. 1001 00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:44.960 Matherings of a lot of languages. So on that squad. 1002 00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:49.880 Uh, I, we were just successful recruiting intelligence officers. It 1003 00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:54.480 was that simple and compromising those intelligence services. So after 1004 00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:57.679 enough years of doing that, I went to work Soviet work. 1005 00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:00.199 I'm sorry you had a question I should have, but no, 1006 00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:01.159 no's been there. 1007 00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:05.159 Yeah, yeah, I mean it was pretty unique at that time, right, 1008 00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:08.559 as you mentioned, CIA and FBI didn't play well together, right. 1009 00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:11.360 Exactly right. So when I left, Romanian work was moved 1010 00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:12.119 over to Russians. 1011 00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:17.800 Actually, the general who was a two star intelligent general 1012 00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:19.920 in charge of the remaining intelligence service like the head 1013 00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:23.079 of the Kajubir the CIA, he was there Romanian intelligence chief. 1014 00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:27.159 His name was i Bhai Pacheppa, and General Pacheppa was 1015 00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:30.679 the most senior ranking defector from the Cold War. He 1016 00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:34.480 knew everybody, not just all the Romanian stuff, but he 1017 00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:38.920 knew Khrushchev and Yasser Arafat and the Castro brothers and 1018 00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:41.119 Mau Sedong, and he knew all the bad guys in 1019 00:49:41.159 --> 00:49:44.679 the world. Nikolai Shoshska was the evil president for life, 1020 00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:46.719 and he was with him on his cotails every place 1021 00:49:46.760 --> 00:49:48.960 he went. And we did not know that he would 1022 00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:51.400 eventually defect to the US, and no one knew that 1023 00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:53.960 he was defecting. But when we did debrief from years later, 1024 00:49:54.679 --> 00:49:58.440 what was most entertaining and with I know your mindset, 1025 00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:01.760 you would find this interesting. He came with Nikolai Shoshsku. 1026 00:50:02.039 --> 00:50:05.000 They went to Dallas, they went to see Boeing in Seattle. 1027 00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:08.400 They would buy Boeing airplanes. And at the airport he'd 1028 00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:09.960 get off the plane. This is when you're coming out 1029 00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:13.159 of the runway, the steps down from the plane, not 1030 00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:17.199 in a tunnel, from the doors, and he would go down, 1031 00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:20.960 bend down and tie his shoe like it was untied, 1032 00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:23.360 but tie his shoe. And what he would do is 1033 00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:25.760 pick up a pebble from the ground of the tarmac 1034 00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:28.719 he put in his pocket. And every place he went, 1035 00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:30.880 when they got off a plane, he would bend down 1036 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:32.760 and as he described it, pick up a small piece 1037 00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:33.280 of America. 1038 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:37.480 So when he got back to Romania. He had a 1039 00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:40.159 little container that had like sixteen little pebbles from America. 1040 00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:43.239 If we had known that then that that was his mindset, 1041 00:50:43.719 --> 00:50:45.599 we could have tried to do something else with him. 1042 00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:50.880 But that's like halfway recruited. But he was, so that 1043 00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:52.159 was that was tremendous. 1044 00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:56.400 So anyway, in debriefing General Pacheppa, he knew, like I said, 1045 00:50:56.400 --> 00:51:01.199 he knew all the bad guys. So he helped compromise 1046 00:51:01.239 --> 00:51:04.280 the entire intelligence service with his defection. And that was 1047 00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:06.559 when they said, you know, the CIA had a section 1048 00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:13.679 which resettled defecting intelligence officers. It used to be called well, 1049 00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:16.079 they had different names for it, but it was Alien Branch. 1050 00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:18.159 I think at the time they changed names. And they 1051 00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:21.079 had a map on the wall of Europe, Eastern Europe, 1052 00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:24.840 Russia and all the Eastern Bloc countries. And at one point, 1053 00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.960 when we got some defectors, they put some cross hatschmark 1054 00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:31.000 hash marks through Romania, and then we had more defectors, 1055 00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:33.280 they put more hash marks through it, and then when 1056 00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:36.199 Patcheppa defected, they blacked out the entire country of Romania, 1057 00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:38.559 so it wasn't on the map anymore. One day I 1058 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:40.719 went in and someone actually cut out Romania so you 1059 00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:42.719 could see the green wall through the map that were 1060 00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:45.559 completely compromised. So we didn't have anything work on counter intelligence, 1061 00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:47.920 so I went to work Russians. So while I was 1062 00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:49.960 working Russians, having had a past of between a lot 1063 00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:53.920 of undercover things and now years of experience, there was 1064 00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:56.760 a squad that was begun in about nineteen seventy nine 1065 00:51:56.960 --> 00:52:00.440 or eighty early eighty and there was the meeting between 1066 00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:05.079 the CIA director who was Santisfield Turner, Admiral Turner, and 1067 00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:10.079 the CIA excuse me, the FBI director was William Webster 1068 00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:12.920 at the time previously a judge, and they met at 1069 00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:16.880 a meeting somewhere and they knew of this harsh relationship 1070 00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:20.559 between the Bureau and the agency, and they said, we 1071 00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:22.400 need to put this behind us. We have too many 1072 00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:25.280 people that could work well together with our combined knowledge. 1073 00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:29.000 So they created they they and with the administration of 1074 00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:32.679 the Bureau and the agency, started a single squad in 1075 00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:36.480 the FBI they called Courtship and it was three CIA 1076 00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:41.000 case officers, three FBI special agents, and we had an 1077 00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:44.239 off site location in Springfield, Virginia, far far away from DC, 1078 00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:47.000 and we had a rented space we at least cars, 1079 00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:49.199 so there was no connection with the intelligence community at all. 1080 00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:56.280 And they had the name Courtship, which actually came from 1081 00:52:56.480 --> 00:52:58.599 the court was from the judge and the ship was 1082 00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:00.920 from the admiral. They called it Courtship, and we like 1083 00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.360 to think that it showed that we were how we 1084 00:53:03.400 --> 00:53:05.880 were recruiting intelligence officers, you know, we were like courting them, 1085 00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:07.480 and that was the kind of thing with which we 1086 00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:09.639 had as an objective to be able to recruit people. 1087 00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:13.039 So they were they like to pick what they considered 1088 00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:16.119 the best and the brightest from all the agencies, Like 1089 00:53:16.159 --> 00:53:17.400 how do you pick some of it? 1090 00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:19.719 But it's not like it's like the Academy. 1091 00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:21.920 Awards where you can't like volunteer to get Academy award 1092 00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:24.719 or buy for the position. So I wasn't in the 1093 00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:26.840 first round, but I was in the second round and 1094 00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:29.239 I was I was happy to be. There was a 1095 00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:30.960 two year assignment. I was there for three and a 1096 00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:34.000 half years, and we were very successful with the efforts 1097 00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:37.679 we did what was all undercover work. And for you 1098 00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:42.159 and your audience, do you want to have an example 1099 00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:45.840 of working undercover activities? Besides what I mentioned with panthers 1100 00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:53.599 and the White extremists. Of the three officers or agents 1101 00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:58.440 from the different agencies, two agents were required for each case. 1102 00:53:58.519 --> 00:53:59.920 One would be what we called the control of the 1103 00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:02.840 case sag neether to be the undercover operative for the UC. 1104 00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:06.280 So you had the CIA and the FBI involved in 1105 00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:08.280 every case in one position or the other. 1106 00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:11.199 That was good. So we learned things from them and 1107 00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:15.239 they learned things from us, for sure. So at one 1108 00:54:15.320 --> 00:54:16.519 point there was a. 1109 00:54:18.320 --> 00:54:20.920 Case I'm not sure why Meyers picked his name was Ladimir, 1110 00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:23.360 but someone said he's the next case to be assigned 1111 00:54:23.360 --> 00:54:25.559 to courtship. Maybe he was a nice guy. There's something 1112 00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:27.679 that led someone to believe he should assigned to courtship. 1113 00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:30.400 So the question is what do we know about him, 1114 00:54:30.440 --> 00:54:33.760 you know, personality wise. And as we're there sitting around 1115 00:54:33.800 --> 00:54:37.679 our table in Springfield, Virginia business conference table, we're on 1116 00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:41.480 the on the horn with a surveillance squad person in 1117 00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:44.719 the FBI who was on the street and he said, Valdimir, 1118 00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:46.480 he just pulled into a spot across from the embassy 1119 00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:49.280 and he's sitting in his car and the window was down, 1120 00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:51.679 And Russians are allowed to do that. They get there, 1121 00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:53.960 they're time, they can only see people. They're authorized to 1122 00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:56.599 see that the sign in sign out all every minutes 1123 00:54:56.599 --> 00:54:58.639 covered You're sitting in his car listen to the radio. 1124 00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:00.840 So I said, well, go right now, what he's listening to? 1125 00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:04.440 So well, I'm thinking this could be you know, Divorgac, 1126 00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:05.519 you could be symphony stuff. 1127 00:55:05.559 --> 00:55:07.840 It could be jazz. Who knew what now. 1128 00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:10.039 I was raised in Philadelphia. I was a bandstand boy. 1129 00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:12.440 I was a you know, dance one of the TV shows. 1130 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:14.639 I was a rock and roll kind of guy. So 1131 00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:17.519 as he walks down the street, he comes back and says, 1132 00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:20.559 he's listening to country music like Kicks one oh six, 1133 00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:24.559 you know country in your car. I thought, I don't 1134 00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:28.400 know anything about country music, like I'm a rock and roller. 1135 00:55:28.760 --> 00:55:30.280 So I had all of a sudden become an expert 1136 00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:33.039 in country music. I mean, I met the guy that's 1137 00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:35.079 one of my fellow agess knew a fellow managed the 1138 00:55:35.119 --> 00:55:36.400 country station that was involved. 1139 00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:39.159 And I listened to music. I went to concerts, you know, 1140 00:55:39.719 --> 00:55:41.199 Don't You Make My Brown. 1141 00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:43.679 Eyes Blue with Crystal Gale and all the other songs 1142 00:55:43.719 --> 00:55:45.280 that I would have never known or heard of. But 1143 00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:48.199 I had to have no more than Vladimir about country music. 1144 00:55:48.280 --> 00:55:50.000 Table to meet him, so we can lean on me 1145 00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:53.400 for knowledge that's backstopping, but it has to happen with 1146 00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:57.599 the case. So he was in the political section of 1147 00:55:57.639 --> 00:55:59.880 the embassy. There was another individual who was in the 1148 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:02.599 commercial section of the embassy, which was far separated. 1149 00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:04.559 Just like in the bureau. 1150 00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:06.119 You can work out intelligence or you can work bank 1151 00:56:06.199 --> 00:56:09.119 robberies down the hallway, and you'd never connected. You know, 1152 00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:12.000 you make carpool to work, but your work is unconnected. 1153 00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:14.480 And then there was a third one who was a 1154 00:56:14.559 --> 00:56:17.239 military out of Shay in what they called the Soviet 1155 00:56:17.360 --> 00:56:20.880 Military Office of Smoke at another building in Washington farther away. 1156 00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:25.199 So I turned out to be the undercover agent working 1157 00:56:25.239 --> 00:56:28.880 against three Soviets at the same time. And to do 1158 00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:31.480 a thing like this, you know, the title Basin is 1159 00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:35.079 beautiful with the cherry blossoms in the springtime, and everybody 1160 00:56:35.199 --> 00:56:38.760 has pictures taken of what's going on there. So at 1161 00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:42.519 this point I think I have two or three. I 1162 00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:45.679 have three sons born every other year, and so with 1163 00:56:45.880 --> 00:56:48.320 my then wife, we would take pictures of us at 1164 00:56:48.320 --> 00:56:51.599 the Title Basin. Us and our oldest son maybe was three, 1165 00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:54.599 and then just my wife and my son, me and 1166 00:56:54.760 --> 00:56:57.119 my son and just my son, and then we'd bring 1167 00:56:57.199 --> 00:56:59.719 Sebastian and my other child to take catures of all 1168 00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:02.519 four and the pictures of juste Bastian and me just 1169 00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:05.000 to best me and my wife, and the same way, 1170 00:57:05.079 --> 00:57:08.760 so that every possible combination. So if you meet a 1171 00:57:08.840 --> 00:57:12.400 Russian and say I have two children, and then somebody 1172 00:57:12.440 --> 00:57:14.639 else says, why met an American? 1173 00:57:14.679 --> 00:57:16.400 He had two sons? Also like how old were they? 1174 00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:20.719 And you can't have that confusion, So you prepare years 1175 00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:24.280 in advance to take the right pictures at the springtime 1176 00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:27.599 terry blossoms, so when you meet a Russian four years later, 1177 00:57:27.920 --> 00:57:29.559 you have a picture to show him. And I would 1178 00:57:29.599 --> 00:57:31.480 never have a picture of my wife and one son 1179 00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:34.039 if I had two sons. Ever, so I have the 1180 00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:36.719 right picture of the one son for one Russian, and 1181 00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:39.079 then for the next Russian, it's my wife and me 1182 00:57:39.159 --> 00:57:41.880 and the other son, and for the third Russian it's 1183 00:57:41.960 --> 00:57:45.159 my wife and me and two sons. And no one 1184 00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:47.679 gets to write up in the report my exact family 1185 00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:51.079 definition because they don't know it. That's how far is 1186 00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:53.400 that in advanced planning. And it worked more than that, 1187 00:57:53.480 --> 00:57:55.559 because I end up having three sons and then two daughters, 1188 00:57:55.639 --> 00:57:59.000 and we did the whole thing every time. So I 1189 00:57:59.159 --> 00:58:02.639 had two wallets in my back pockets, one on each side. 1190 00:58:02.760 --> 00:58:04.480 Usually a man will have a thick wallet on one 1191 00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:07.760 side and his wife always complains about you wallet so fat. 1192 00:58:09.320 --> 00:58:09.840 In half of it. 1193 00:58:09.920 --> 00:58:11.599 It was a fold over wallet, and half of each 1194 00:58:11.639 --> 00:58:14.840 wallet was a different identity. Who was me Wayne Barnes. 1195 00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:18.079 There was another one who I think was like William 1196 00:58:18.280 --> 00:58:21.440 Arthur Brewster. There was another one who was Wayne t 1197 00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:24.360 you know, Burnside, and then there was another one with 1198 00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:27.519 another name. So I had three different identities, so in 1199 00:58:27.639 --> 00:58:30.599 each wallet there were two identities. So one day walking 1200 00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:33.400 down the Springfield Wall with my son, who was three 1201 00:58:33.480 --> 00:58:37.320 years old at the time, and I happened to see Vladimir. 1202 00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:38.920 They were with his son who was about the same age. 1203 00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:41.840 The coincidence, i'd want to bump into him, and I 1204 00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:43.719 saw him, and at first so I put myself in 1205 00:58:43.760 --> 00:58:46.159 front of him so he would see us, and oh, Wayne, 1206 00:58:46.159 --> 00:58:49.159 Wayne or John John, you know. So we say let's 1207 00:58:49.159 --> 00:58:51.559 go to the milkshakes. We sat there with milkshakes and 1208 00:58:51.760 --> 00:58:55.920 we talked and it was a surprise meeting. But I 1209 00:58:56.039 --> 00:58:57.119 was going to pay for it, so I had to 1210 00:58:57.119 --> 00:59:00.199 pick out the right wallet and the right identification and 1211 00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:03.000 signed my right name on the credit card, not Wayne something, 1212 00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:05.039 with John something, and then. 1213 00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:06.000 Put them back in my pocket. 1214 00:59:06.119 --> 00:59:08.159 So I had four identities on me at all times 1215 00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:10.400 in case I met someone by a chance, and I did. 1216 00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:13.320 That's an undercover operation. 1217 00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:16.000 Yeah, you have to live your cover in so many ways, 1218 00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:17.400 and it is. 1219 00:59:17.559 --> 00:59:18.639 Like you're like in a drug case. 1220 00:59:18.679 --> 00:59:21.079 We might be deep cover for you know, weeks and 1221 00:59:21.159 --> 00:59:23.280 months away from home, but when you are doing it, 1222 00:59:23.400 --> 00:59:24.159 it is intense. 1223 00:59:24.559 --> 00:59:26.199 So you see. 1224 00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:33.559 Now, let's get into when you were first approached about 1225 00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:37.119 there being a mole in the FBI. It sounds like 1226 00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:39.039 this was more on the tail end of your career. 1227 00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:42.519 But they came to you for a very specific reason. 1228 00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:44.800 Who were those people that came to you? What did 1229 00:59:44.800 --> 00:59:46.519 they say? How did how did that transpire? 1230 00:59:47.159 --> 00:59:48.800 Why did they come from me? Again? Why did they 1231 00:59:48.840 --> 00:59:49.199 come to me? 1232 00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:57.280 Yeah, tough one. So in uh So, I worked, like 1233 00:59:57.400 --> 01:00:00.000 I said, eight or nine years and remain in block country. 1234 01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:03.320 He said, then another nine or ten in for Russians, 1235 01:00:04.039 --> 01:00:08.320 and I was the undercover coordinator. When I first took 1236 01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:11.719 the position, we had like I think seventeen agents who 1237 01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:14.519 had alis ID So if we made a source who 1238 01:00:14.599 --> 01:00:17.159 was a lobbyist or something on a Thursday and he said, Hey, 1239 01:00:17.199 --> 01:00:19.519 i'veens coming to my party on Saturday night, why don't 1240 01:00:19.519 --> 01:00:20.159 you come and meet him. 1241 01:00:20.719 --> 01:00:21.239 You have no ID. 1242 01:00:21.400 --> 01:00:23.960 You can't do that as an FBI agent. So I 1243 01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:27.760 wanted to get IDs for everybody I possibly could. So 1244 01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:30.920 I arranged with a Virginia DMV at seven o'clock. They 1245 01:00:30.920 --> 01:00:33.159 opened up early one day and I brought down fifty agents, 1246 01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:36.119 got the pictures taken the ELIAUS identification all to get 1247 01:00:36.159 --> 01:00:39.360 false ID and the same thing with credit cards. So 1248 01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:41.719 I made it a mass things. We'd have more people 1249 01:00:42.199 --> 01:00:49.440 have the ability to do undercover you know, activities. So 1250 01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:54.440 besides being the undercover coordinator, I had worked undercover against Remanians, 1251 01:00:54.519 --> 01:00:59.400 checks polls, Hungarians and several Russians. When I had come 1252 01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:05.239 off of the courtship, by assistant Special Agent in charge 1253 01:01:05.559 --> 01:01:07.239 said we're looking for someone to work for the night shift. 1254 01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:10.119 It's midnight to eight am shift. Guys hate it. You know, 1255 01:01:10.199 --> 01:01:12.599 it's like you live the life of a bat. You know, 1256 01:01:12.760 --> 01:01:15.000 you sleep in the daytime and you're out at night. 1257 01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:18.599 And he said it's tough to have anybody do it. Consistently. 1258 01:01:19.199 --> 01:01:21.960 So I said, you know, I have more experience in 1259 01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:25.480 working undercover than most people would dream of having. I said, 1260 01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:28.320 but there are things that are difficult to do. Said, 1261 01:01:28.599 --> 01:01:30.360 what I want to write is a handbook, a manual 1262 01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:34.639 about how to work counter intelligence undercover activities, like, for instance, 1263 01:01:34.679 --> 01:01:35.880 how do you pick a name, and how do you 1264 01:01:35.960 --> 01:01:38.360 pick a house? And how do you use a credit card? 1265 01:01:38.960 --> 01:01:40.840 And if you pick a house, do you rent a house? 1266 01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:42.800 Do you lease house to borrow a friend's house for 1267 01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:44.920 a night just to show you have a house. But 1268 01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:46.760 there are a lot of questions that if you've done it, 1269 01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:48.599 you can answer. But if you haven't done it, you know, 1270 01:01:48.679 --> 01:01:51.239 don't try it by yourself. So over the next you know, 1271 01:01:51.440 --> 01:01:54.599 six months, I wrote a manual about undercover activities. So 1272 01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:57.880 at about the same point in eighty six, I became 1273 01:01:57.960 --> 01:02:00.840 the security officer for the Field Office, which is another 1274 01:02:00.920 --> 01:02:03.239 whole story. But you can't do that in Washington Field 1275 01:02:03.239 --> 01:02:06.400 Office without yards and yards of experience with all the 1276 01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:07.960 matters that you may have to deal with as a 1277 01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:12.679 security officer. So in nineteen ninety, my daughter Natalia was 1278 01:02:12.719 --> 01:02:16.159 born because you had spina bifida, and who was unexpected 1279 01:02:16.199 --> 01:02:17.639 and all the doctors. 1280 01:02:17.400 --> 01:02:20.280 Is in the Fairfax Hospital now in Nova. All the 1281 01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:21.400 doctors who had skills. 1282 01:02:21.440 --> 01:02:23.599 They said, the best orthopedic surgeons in the world are 1283 01:02:23.639 --> 01:02:28.280 in San Diego at Children's Hospital, which was interesting to know. 1284 01:02:28.920 --> 01:02:30.320 And they said, you ought to get a transfer to 1285 01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:33.000 San Diego. So it took a couple months, but I 1286 01:02:33.039 --> 01:02:35.119 did get a transfer. We moved to San Diego. I 1287 01:02:35.199 --> 01:02:39.039 thought that was the end of my counterintelligence career. You know, 1288 01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:42.199 there's no embassies there, no diplomats in San Diego. There's 1289 01:02:42.199 --> 01:02:44.119 a lot of big military base, but you know how 1290 01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:46.760 many Russians were there, So I thought that was the 1291 01:02:46.880 --> 01:02:48.679 end of that career. So I got there in nineteen 1292 01:02:48.760 --> 01:02:54.719 ninety I worked counter terrorism. I did backgrounds on federal judges. 1293 01:02:54.840 --> 01:02:56.760 I was working healthcare for at the time. In ninety 1294 01:02:56.800 --> 01:02:59.639 eight and Jean McClellan, a dear friend who I worked 1295 01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:02.320 Russian with for years, he called me up on a 1296 01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:06.599 Sunday and he said, uh, hey, Mike and Dave and 1297 01:03:06.639 --> 01:03:08.320 I are coming out to see you on Tuesday. And 1298 01:03:08.440 --> 01:03:11.800 Mike was Mike Rochford and Dave was Dave Greb and 1299 01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:15.559 they were senior people in the intelligence line at headquarters 1300 01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:18.920 in Washington, and I thought, see like to see me. 1301 01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:21.079 I mean, everybody thought I was like a maverick. I 1302 01:03:21.159 --> 01:03:23.880 needed a long leash. A supervisor once said, we have 1303 01:03:23.960 --> 01:03:26.760 short lease agents and long lease agents. He said, you're 1304 01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:28.800 a lawyer. You're pulling, tugging real hard at the end 1305 01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:31.599 of a long leash. Every case you work. That's I 1306 01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:34.559 call that walking up the stream, turning over all the 1307 01:03:34.599 --> 01:03:36.440 rocks in the stream, trying to find new leads through 1308 01:03:36.519 --> 01:03:37.559 things to do different. 1309 01:03:38.039 --> 01:03:41.079 So like working under cover as a panther, that's that's 1310 01:03:41.440 --> 01:03:46.679 far and away a long leash thing. So I couldn't 1311 01:03:46.719 --> 01:03:47.079 believe it. 1312 01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:48.639 Why they would come out to see me, why three 1313 01:03:48.639 --> 01:03:49.960 of them would come, or why they couldn't talk on 1314 01:03:49.960 --> 01:03:53.880 a secure phone, which we had. So I met him 1315 01:03:53.880 --> 01:03:56.679 at the Bahia Hotel and we sat down and Mike 1316 01:03:56.840 --> 01:03:58.559 was in charge, and he got their right to the 1317 01:03:58.639 --> 01:04:02.079 business here. With his penetration of the US intelligence community, 1318 01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:05.360 we hope it's a CIA as opposed to the FBI, 1319 01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:09.719 but likely the FBI. And he said that there's a. 1320 01:04:09.719 --> 01:04:11.840 Russian who we know has seen. 1321 01:04:13.199 --> 01:04:15.880 In He has seen what we considered be the trader 1322 01:04:15.960 --> 01:04:19.519 in the FBI, the trader, the mole and that was 1323 01:04:19.559 --> 01:04:21.719 from other sources. We had recruited some Russians and they 1324 01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:25.440 knew this into this story so unequivalently. They knew the 1325 01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:28.559 guy was coming, had seen what we call the unsubbed 1326 01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:33.480 the unknown subject. So he was going to be coming 1327 01:04:33.519 --> 01:04:36.599 in two months to a film festival in Santa Monica. 1328 01:04:36.679 --> 01:04:40.599 It's the American Film Market AFM, and so that gave 1329 01:04:40.679 --> 01:04:41.880 us a lot of lead time. But we were able 1330 01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:45.159 to find out the locations and travel of people who 1331 01:04:45.239 --> 01:04:48.800 we suspected the Bureau suspected might know the identity of 1332 01:04:48.920 --> 01:04:53.119 the mole in the FBI, and this was one the 1333 01:04:53.159 --> 01:04:55.599 first one was actually coming to the US. Others who 1334 01:04:55.679 --> 01:04:57.480 they thought might know had been to place like Tokyo 1335 01:04:57.559 --> 01:04:59.360 in London, and they tried to do various things. They 1336 01:04:59.360 --> 01:05:01.599 were at warn six, but this was the first one 1337 01:05:01.719 --> 01:05:04.360 coming to the US. So they sat around a table 1338 01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:07.360 in Washington. The guy was coming. Now I had the 1339 01:05:07.480 --> 01:05:09.800 FBI chance to have someone, you know, try to meet 1340 01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:15.400 this guy. And it's really a mission impossible. I mean, 1341 01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:19.880 it's just that simple. There were two superpowers. The Russians 1342 01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:21.960 thought they were members of the best superpower, So why 1343 01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:23.920 would a guy want to talk to American about this stuff. 1344 01:05:24.440 --> 01:05:27.559 Tom Cruise's movies with Mission Impossible. He's jumping out of 1345 01:05:27.639 --> 01:05:31.000 airplanes and motorcycles off the cliff, but they're all physical obstacles. 1346 01:05:31.320 --> 01:05:34.800 This was a psychological issue, so and I saw that 1347 01:05:34.880 --> 01:05:37.599 as a big barrier, depending what the man's personality was. 1348 01:05:37.679 --> 01:05:39.960 But I had never known heard about him, so. 1349 01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:43.039 We had to get. 1350 01:05:44.400 --> 01:05:47.280 They The last thing they said was, we want you 1351 01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:50.280 to go to the festival, you know, find him, meet him, 1352 01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:53.079 befriend him, recruit him, and show him photos of a 1353 01:05:53.159 --> 01:05:56.480 dozen senior agents we suspect might be mold the FBI. 1354 01:05:57.039 --> 01:05:59.159 They narrowed it down to a certain extent who they thought. 1355 01:05:59.840 --> 01:06:01.559 I mean, I don't know if you knew this at 1356 01:06:01.599 --> 01:06:04.159 the time, but if I remember from your book, there 1357 01:06:04.239 --> 01:06:08.039 was a defactor that showed them internal FBI memos that 1358 01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:11.000 the Russians had that only could have come from a 1359 01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:12.599 certain number of people in the. 1360 01:06:12.679 --> 01:06:14.079 Organization, right right. 1361 01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:17.760 I mentioned that before the defector debriefings. They were written 1362 01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:20.880 up in a form called a letterhead memorandum Lahm. The 1363 01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:23.280 internal memos would have a's a memo at the top 1364 01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:25.400 and would say from into the special Agent in charge 1365 01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:27.719 of this office to this office, and it would have 1366 01:06:27.800 --> 01:06:30.000 other file numbers of other things on it. They were 1367 01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:34.880 internal memos. They're not disseminated. The Bureau disseminates prosecutor reports 1368 01:06:34.920 --> 01:06:37.639 in the criminal field to the US Attorney's Office and 1369 01:06:37.880 --> 01:06:41.880 letterhead memorandums to all the agencies heard of in the 1370 01:06:41.960 --> 01:06:45.440 counterintelligence field, but nobody gets a memo. So someone had 1371 01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:47.880 a memo, it came from the FBI. There were no 1372 01:06:48.039 --> 01:06:51.840 memos in the State Department in CIA anyway. So let's 1373 01:06:51.880 --> 01:06:54.840 say you have six or seven documents. Let me prefaced 1374 01:06:54.840 --> 01:06:57.000 that by saying, almost every defector who came out, no 1375 01:06:57.039 --> 01:06:59.800 matter what country they came from, and I debrieve many, 1376 01:07:00.519 --> 01:07:02.440 they would always say, oh, we have you guys penetrated, 1377 01:07:02.599 --> 01:07:04.719 like to tell us during training that you know, like 1378 01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:08.960 they we have you guys, I mean not affected openly 1379 01:07:09.320 --> 01:07:11.239 and they can't hurt me, but we know we have 1380 01:07:11.320 --> 01:07:15.039 you guys penetrated. So when General Pacheppa, mean in charge 1381 01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:17.800 of Romanian intelligence, because I had to break Romanians who 1382 01:07:17.840 --> 01:07:19.760 had said the same thing, he came out and he said, nah, 1383 01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:22.000 that's bullshit. We just tell him not during training, so 1384 01:07:22.079 --> 01:07:26.519 they won't work for the FBI. Nice, So they really 1385 01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:28.960 didn't have it. So here you had a Russian who, 1386 01:07:29.280 --> 01:07:30.840 like all the others, said oh, we have you penetrated, 1387 01:07:30.920 --> 01:07:33.400 just like you learned in training. But in this situation 1388 01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:38.920 he had documents. So whoever the source was in US intelligence, 1389 01:07:39.440 --> 01:07:41.800 he didn't just want to say we've got you penetrated. 1390 01:07:42.280 --> 01:07:46.599 He got photocopies of documents that someone in US intelligence 1391 01:07:47.079 --> 01:07:49.679 had given to the Russians. He photocopied them and they 1392 01:07:49.719 --> 01:07:54.320 were Some of them were FBI memos, which meant someone 1393 01:07:54.360 --> 01:07:55.320 in the FBI was involved. 1394 01:07:55.760 --> 01:07:56.639 So here's the theory. 1395 01:07:56.760 --> 01:07:59.519 You have like say, six documents, and you put a 1396 01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:01.920 circle around this document, and they say who saw that 1397 01:08:02.280 --> 01:08:06.360 memo and who saw this memo and who saw this memo. 1398 01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:08.840 And the theory is, if you manage to figure from 1399 01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:10.719 the cases that were worked with the information was in 1400 01:08:10.800 --> 01:08:12.800 it at one point, you would have an ellipsis in 1401 01:08:12.840 --> 01:08:15.480 the middle where there's one person who saw all of them. 1402 01:08:16.399 --> 01:08:19.319 But the problem was, you're sitting at your desk at headquarters, 1403 01:08:19.399 --> 01:08:22.600 for instance, and you have an important memo on your 1404 01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:26.000 desk or detailed of some operation, and you go to 1405 01:08:26.079 --> 01:08:27.920 the bathroom when you went back and get some coffee, 1406 01:08:28.159 --> 01:08:29.960 and the guy sitting the desk beside you looks over 1407 01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:32.279 and he sees it. He picks it up, goes to 1408 01:08:32.359 --> 01:08:35.000 the photocopy machine, photocops it, puts it back on your desk, 1409 01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:37.399 and he goes back to his desk. His name isn't 1410 01:08:37.399 --> 01:08:40.880 on any piece of paper, So it meant it expanded 1411 01:08:40.920 --> 01:08:42.279 the number of people who could have been the bad 1412 01:08:42.359 --> 01:08:43.760 guy by a lot. 1413 01:08:44.800 --> 01:08:46.560 So it made it meant it very difficult. 1414 01:08:47.199 --> 01:08:50.439 So one of the reasons they came out to see 1415 01:08:50.520 --> 01:08:53.840 me was I had left Washington in nineteen ninety and 1416 01:08:53.960 --> 01:08:58.279 they knew that the intelligence operation of the Trader was 1417 01:08:58.359 --> 01:09:00.239 alive and well in nineteen ninety two and ninety three, 1418 01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:02.720 but I wasn't there at the time, so I wasn't 1419 01:09:02.720 --> 01:09:05.800 the bad guy. This harkens back to the Kim Philby 1420 01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:09.840 case with British intelligence. It was the five guys from 1421 01:09:10.399 --> 01:09:15.640 Cambridge who were recruited by the Russians. Was very liberal socialists, 1422 01:09:15.720 --> 01:09:18.840 gay guys from Cambridge, Kim Philby and Anthony Blounton who 1423 01:09:18.840 --> 01:09:21.640 were total I think of five. They ordered thardit data positions. 1424 01:09:21.680 --> 01:09:24.159 He well, Philby was in the military, I was in 1425 01:09:24.439 --> 01:09:27.239 their intelligence service. One of them was the director of 1426 01:09:27.279 --> 01:09:30.079 a museum. But they all knew influential people. They could 1427 01:09:30.119 --> 01:09:34.319 all do informational things, and it was an extraordinary compromiser 1428 01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:35.359 of their intelligence service. 1429 01:09:35.920 --> 01:09:37.920 So when they learned that Philby was the one who 1430 01:09:38.079 --> 01:09:38.359 was in. 1431 01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:42.000 The military, was in the intelligence service, who was working 1432 01:09:42.039 --> 01:09:44.399 for the Russians, they sent a cable to the US, 1433 01:09:44.479 --> 01:09:47.479 to the British embassy in Washington, d C. So I 1434 01:09:47.520 --> 01:09:51.359 think nineteen fifty to fifty one, and they said, arrest Philby. 1435 01:09:51.640 --> 01:09:52.359 He's the bad guy. 1436 01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:55.119 As it turns out, Philby wasn't the one who decrypted 1437 01:09:55.800 --> 01:09:58.760 that communication, and the next time I saw him he 1438 01:09:58.840 --> 01:10:02.000 was walking down the streets in gout, live in a life. 1439 01:10:02.920 --> 01:10:05.560 So they came to you because they knew emphatically that 1440 01:10:05.680 --> 01:10:07.960 you could not be the mole in the FBI. 1441 01:10:08.119 --> 01:10:11.239 You could not get now without letting my ego get 1442 01:10:11.239 --> 01:10:11.680 in the way. 1443 01:10:11.720 --> 01:10:14.600 I did have a lot of experience working undercover, but 1444 01:10:14.800 --> 01:10:18.039 ultimately that was that was to me the last last 1445 01:10:18.359 --> 01:10:19.119 block to check with. 1446 01:10:19.640 --> 01:10:21.720 And he's not the bad guy. You know, you don't. 1447 01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:23.359 You don't want to send an FBI agent who is 1448 01:10:23.439 --> 01:10:25.600 the bad guy to recruit a Russian and have a 1449 01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:27.920 point out what this should be your own picture. 1450 01:10:28.279 --> 01:10:31.000 That would be a bad thing. Well, I mean investigatively, 1451 01:10:31.039 --> 01:10:31.760 that would be brutal. 1452 01:10:31.960 --> 01:10:34.520 That was a huge issue, as I will get to 1453 01:10:34.640 --> 01:10:36.720 i'm sure in a bit. But the issue that this, 1454 01:10:37.279 --> 01:10:40.199 the position this mole had was he was supposed to 1455 01:10:40.279 --> 01:10:43.119 catch spies himself, but he was the chill spy. 1456 01:10:44.279 --> 01:10:46.279 Yeah he was. Well. 1457 01:10:47.159 --> 01:10:51.199 So the movie Breach came out in two thousand and seven. 1458 01:10:51.239 --> 01:10:55.479 I think Hansen was arrested in on President Day in 1459 01:10:55.520 --> 01:10:58.319 two thousand and one. My operation was nineteen ninety eight, 1460 01:10:59.079 --> 01:11:02.640 and so we came out with an answer. What I 1461 01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:05.199 was asked to do was to have Ivan pointing out 1462 01:11:05.199 --> 01:11:07.640 a photo from the photo spread, and he did that. 1463 01:11:08.720 --> 01:11:10.880 As you know from the book, what I just said 1464 01:11:11.119 --> 01:11:13.960 was the most simple way of saying the most complicated. 1465 01:11:13.479 --> 01:11:14.920 Operation they want you to imagine. 1466 01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:19.039 Yeah, and I don't want to have too much of 1467 01:11:19.079 --> 01:11:23.359 a reveal for your your viewers. But it didn't take 1468 01:11:23.399 --> 01:11:25.560 the eight days of the conference. It took much longer 1469 01:11:25.600 --> 01:11:27.920 than that and was much more complicated. But all the 1470 01:11:28.000 --> 01:11:30.039 tools in the toolbox were used on this one, all 1471 01:11:30.119 --> 01:11:32.560 of them. Anything, all the stuff we had learned, all 1472 01:11:32.560 --> 01:11:36.960 the stuff I had made up, everything. So anyway, it 1473 01:11:37.159 --> 01:11:40.640 was important that it it wasn't me So when the 1474 01:11:40.680 --> 01:11:45.399 movie came out two thousand and seven Breach. In the movie, 1475 01:11:45.520 --> 01:11:49.920 Laura Lenny playing the senior person over Eric O'Neil his 1476 01:11:50.079 --> 01:11:52.560 real name, which is he was Flotten Ryan Leap in 1477 01:11:52.600 --> 01:11:55.800 the movie, he said, gee, you know who had been 1478 01:11:55.840 --> 01:11:59.960 placed in the office with Hanson just we could monitor him, 1479 01:12:00.199 --> 01:12:02.560 just so he would know, try to get his PDA 1480 01:12:02.760 --> 01:12:06.039 and just see what he was doing, because they believed 1481 01:12:06.039 --> 01:12:07.640 at that point that he was the one for sure. 1482 01:12:08.439 --> 01:12:12.640 So when the movie came out and that thing came 1483 01:12:12.720 --> 01:12:16.159 up where the clerk said to Laura Lenny, I don't 1484 01:12:16.159 --> 01:12:19.039 think he's a bad guy. He goes the mass every morning, 1485 01:12:19.520 --> 01:12:21.640 you know, he does all these other things in the bureau, 1486 01:12:22.199 --> 01:12:23.520 Like what does he work for the mafia? And she 1487 01:12:23.560 --> 01:12:25.720 said no, we paid a KGBI guy seven million dollars 1488 01:12:25.760 --> 01:12:29.359 for that information. And I sat there in a movie theater. 1489 01:12:29.399 --> 01:12:32.439 I thought, I didn't give anybody any money, Like does 1490 01:12:32.479 --> 01:12:35.079 that work. There's a lot of reasons we could discuss 1491 01:12:35.159 --> 01:12:38.119 now or later about what Russians will or will not 1492 01:12:38.239 --> 01:12:42.760 take by way of financial aggrandizement. If they're going to 1493 01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:46.319 give away secrets which could change their lives, that's psychological 1494 01:12:46.359 --> 01:12:48.239 and it's a little different part of the story. But 1495 01:12:48.520 --> 01:12:50.239 so I went I talked to my colleagues who were 1496 01:12:50.239 --> 01:12:53.319 involved in the case. The problem was I retired in 1497 01:12:53.399 --> 01:12:56.159 two thousand, so I was out of the loop. I 1498 01:12:56.239 --> 01:12:58.199 no longer had clearances, a no one was telling me 1499 01:12:58.399 --> 01:13:00.880 what went on after I left. We know that I 1500 01:13:00.880 --> 01:13:04.920 even pointed out a photo, and I don't know what 1501 01:13:05.000 --> 01:13:07.000 they did with that because I don't have privy to 1502 01:13:07.159 --> 01:13:09.880 that I was. I was still in San Diego, and 1503 01:13:10.039 --> 01:13:12.720 I had no no connection And because of the sensitivity 1504 01:13:12.760 --> 01:13:15.199 the case, only very few people in the bureau and 1505 01:13:15.239 --> 01:13:18.039 in the vertical administrative line above it, very very few people, 1506 01:13:19.239 --> 01:13:21.279 so I did not know what happened at that point. 1507 01:13:22.319 --> 01:13:25.680 I'd like to take a bit to look at this, 1508 01:13:26.800 --> 01:13:28.960 you know, kind of your part in the case, because 1509 01:13:29.479 --> 01:13:32.439 I thought what made it such a great espionage story 1510 01:13:33.159 --> 01:13:36.159 was that it required a lot of thinking on your feet, 1511 01:13:36.600 --> 01:13:40.079 a lot of finesse. This was a very delicate thing, 1512 01:13:40.279 --> 01:13:43.119 and both in terms of the operational security around it 1513 01:13:43.239 --> 01:13:46.600 and also handling these different personalities that you came in 1514 01:13:46.680 --> 01:13:51.680 contact with. You were and your your role was also subtle. 1515 01:13:52.319 --> 01:13:54.439 You weren't going right up to this guy and trying 1516 01:13:54.479 --> 01:13:56.399 to pitch him say hey, I'm from the FBI, work 1517 01:13:56.479 --> 01:13:59.239 with us. You had this whole game plan where you 1518 01:13:59.359 --> 01:14:03.039 were kind of like setting the stage to warm things up, 1519 01:14:03.119 --> 01:14:06.640 to ingratiate him to you, and ultimately it wasn't going 1520 01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:08.560 to be you making the pitch. I mean, if you 1521 01:14:08.600 --> 01:14:10.680 could tell us a little bit about how that came about. 1522 01:14:11.920 --> 01:14:14.880 Well earlier today, speaking a little out of school here, 1523 01:14:14.880 --> 01:14:16.520 earlier to that, I was watching one of your earlier 1524 01:14:16.560 --> 01:14:20.159 shows with Michelle I think Brigby and she had been 1525 01:14:20.199 --> 01:14:23.359 in the CIA, in the in the Middle East, and 1526 01:14:23.720 --> 01:14:27.439 you said the phrase a cold bump. So that is, 1527 01:14:27.520 --> 01:14:29.800 if you find one of your targets an embassy reception 1528 01:14:29.920 --> 01:14:32.359 or someplace, you kind of just bump into them cold 1529 01:14:32.399 --> 01:14:33.079 and you meet them. 1530 01:14:33.399 --> 01:14:35.479 Okay, not knocking what you said or what may have 1531 01:14:35.560 --> 01:14:39.199 happened to her. It is a term. But but you 1532 01:14:39.239 --> 01:14:41.079 can't do it and make an operation work exactly what 1533 01:14:41.119 --> 01:14:41.960 you had said. You can't. 1534 01:14:42.000 --> 01:14:43.960 You can't do a coum. There is such a thing, 1535 01:14:44.000 --> 01:14:48.119 and it depends one of your circumstances. But you know, 1536 01:14:49.039 --> 01:14:51.319 we have a s expression I dts f al I 1537 01:14:51.399 --> 01:14:55.800 do this shit for a living. You're people in the 1538 01:14:55.880 --> 01:14:59.920 bureau know what that is. So, and there's no one 1539 01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:04.359 we can go to for consoling or for assistance, especially 1540 01:15:04.359 --> 01:15:06.640 when I was by myself in San Diego. But there 1541 01:15:06.680 --> 01:15:08.800 were a few factors which were very important which began 1542 01:15:08.880 --> 01:15:12.239 the first few chapters of the book. We needed some 1543 01:15:12.399 --> 01:15:16.520 help which people inadvertently would not have known that they 1544 01:15:16.560 --> 01:15:19.039 could be the ones really helping us. There was a 1545 01:15:19.079 --> 01:15:21.800 fellow who was well known to the FBI, who was 1546 01:15:21.920 --> 01:15:24.920 Jack Platt, and he was in this fr He was 1547 01:15:24.960 --> 01:15:28.800 in the local office in Roslin, Virginia of the CIA, 1548 01:15:29.479 --> 01:15:33.239 and he was his nickname Codny was Cowboy, and he 1549 01:15:33.800 --> 01:15:37.479 had a big Budweiser tumor auto about here. And he 1550 01:15:37.600 --> 01:15:40.520 was a real jolly lea guy and everybody loved him. 1551 01:15:40.560 --> 01:15:42.439 Helped the beer with surveillance training. He did it for 1552 01:15:42.520 --> 01:15:45.479 the CIA and for the FBI in various areas, and 1553 01:15:45.560 --> 01:15:46.399 he was just well known. 1554 01:15:46.439 --> 01:15:46.880 He was liked. 1555 01:15:46.920 --> 01:15:49.439 And Gene McClelland one of the colleague who called me 1556 01:15:49.520 --> 01:15:53.079 from Washington back in the ninety eight. They were very 1557 01:15:53.119 --> 01:15:55.560 close because Jane was running what they called the Special 1558 01:15:55.640 --> 01:15:59.680 Surveillance Group SSG, which is all the people doing surveillance 1559 01:15:59.680 --> 01:16:02.000 which are really just like the Watch Service in London. 1560 01:16:02.319 --> 01:16:04.319 And they've been doing this forever. I mean they started 1561 01:16:04.359 --> 01:16:06.359 it up I think in nineteen seventy three or so, 1562 01:16:07.000 --> 01:16:08.880 and from there on they were just became very good. 1563 01:16:08.880 --> 01:16:10.520 And then the older they got, the more they blended 1564 01:16:10.600 --> 01:16:13.560 in with every age and every style and everything. So 1565 01:16:13.720 --> 01:16:15.640 several number of them were out at this at the 1566 01:16:15.840 --> 01:16:19.239 film Festival in Santa Monica, which I thought was a 1567 01:16:19.239 --> 01:16:21.840 great part of the book because they never did know 1568 01:16:22.039 --> 01:16:24.960 that we're trying to recruit a Russian who would point 1569 01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:28.000 out a mole in the FBI just another Russian surveillance. 1570 01:16:28.039 --> 01:16:30.119 They had no idea what the goal was, and they 1571 01:16:30.199 --> 01:16:33.159 never did until either the movie or until this came 1572 01:16:33.199 --> 01:16:38.600 out because it was so sensitive. So we needed help 1573 01:16:38.960 --> 01:16:42.279 if possible, so Jean said, Well, Jack's sister is an 1574 01:16:42.279 --> 01:16:46.079 Academy Award Academy member and lives in Los Angeles. And 1575 01:16:46.199 --> 01:16:48.399 the few things that would stand out in her background 1576 01:16:48.439 --> 01:16:52.159 that you would appreciate, she wrote the screenplay for Pretty Baby, 1577 01:16:52.199 --> 01:16:54.640 and she personally discovered Brookshields to play the role of 1578 01:16:54.680 --> 01:16:58.079 Pretty Baby. So she's a screenwriter. That's mostly what she 1579 01:16:58.600 --> 01:17:02.079 loves and does. But did the Barbara streisand movies, She 1580 01:17:02.279 --> 01:17:05.000 did the set design, She was nominated for Academy Were 1581 01:17:05.039 --> 01:17:07.920 for set design in one of those movies, the Romcom 1582 01:17:08.039 --> 01:17:10.800 that Barbara Streisan hadn't been in those kinds of things. 1583 01:17:11.600 --> 01:17:12.720 So she was known in Hollywood. 1584 01:17:12.720 --> 01:17:15.279 At one point, she'd married to Peter Bodanovitch, was a 1585 01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:19.880 well known director, producer of movies, and so she was. 1586 01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:20.880 A known quantity. 1587 01:17:21.319 --> 01:17:24.720 But she had broken all the glass ceilings because she 1588 01:17:24.800 --> 01:17:30.000 became a producer director. She was the epitome and she 1589 01:17:30.199 --> 01:17:34.319 was a tiny person. So anyway, so Jean talked to 1590 01:17:34.640 --> 01:17:38.000 Jack Blatt and said, you know, Wayne's working this case 1591 01:17:38.079 --> 01:17:39.600 with this you know, do you think your sister could 1592 01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:39.960 help us? 1593 01:17:40.279 --> 01:17:41.760 So he called her and you know, would you help 1594 01:17:41.760 --> 01:17:42.680 the FBI with something? 1595 01:17:42.720 --> 01:17:45.279 And she had also no idea why she knew there 1596 01:17:45.319 --> 01:17:47.439 was a Russian involved, but ultimately no one could have 1597 01:17:47.520 --> 01:17:50.600 even guessed what the reason was to meet the Russian. 1598 01:17:50.640 --> 01:17:53.199 It was just another kind of intelligence cold war type case. 1599 01:17:54.000 --> 01:17:55.920 So she said, I have to have to meet him 1600 01:17:56.239 --> 01:17:58.640 who I'm going to work with, which is smart because 1601 01:17:58.680 --> 01:17:59.960 she could be losing her whole career. 1602 01:18:00.399 --> 01:18:02.479 Someone knew what she was doing. So I drove from 1603 01:18:02.479 --> 01:18:03.159 San Diego to. 1604 01:18:06.800 --> 01:18:10.560 Hollywood Burbank Airport and the Carcy Warner Studio, and I 1605 01:18:10.640 --> 01:18:14.279 met her there her I kept step step niece, stepdaughter, 1606 01:18:15.119 --> 01:18:20.399 Kelly Wade was there as her assistant, and she was 1607 01:18:20.439 --> 01:18:23.319 about as tiny a person in height and in width 1608 01:18:23.359 --> 01:18:24.560 as you could possibly imagine. 1609 01:18:24.840 --> 01:18:27.000 She was the opposite. In fact, they looked like Jack 1610 01:18:27.039 --> 01:18:29.079 could have eaten her and you would not have known it. 1611 01:18:29.640 --> 01:18:33.199 He was just just so tiny. But she was wonderful. 1612 01:18:33.840 --> 01:18:36.039 And I'm a fairly big guy at six one two twenty. 1613 01:18:36.439 --> 01:18:41.039 But we got along well, and she understood the seriousness 1614 01:18:41.279 --> 01:18:43.640 that I was approaching this and some of my passed, 1615 01:18:43.680 --> 01:18:44.760 so she was willing to pitch in. 1616 01:18:45.399 --> 01:18:47.279 So that was something I needed. I was a tool. 1617 01:18:47.920 --> 01:18:49.560 It was a piece of the puzzle that I saw 1618 01:18:49.640 --> 01:18:50.079 lining up. 1619 01:18:50.720 --> 01:18:53.319 I also needed backstopping, and there was nowhere to go 1620 01:18:53.439 --> 01:18:56.319 in the Bureau to find backstopping. So my old pal, 1621 01:18:56.439 --> 01:18:59.600 George Ramnis, he had been the legislative assistant for a 1622 01:18:59.680 --> 01:19:01.880 Senator Pete de Menicci from New Mexico who was on 1623 01:19:01.960 --> 01:19:05.720 the Budget Committee when Reagan was president, and he was 1624 01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:07.119 with the White House a lot. He knew a lot 1625 01:19:07.159 --> 01:19:09.640 of Capitol Hill. Things later became a loveliest covering both 1626 01:19:09.680 --> 01:19:11.880 sides of the Aisle, but a dear friend, and he'd 1627 01:19:11.920 --> 01:19:14.880 helped us when I was on courtship with various backstopping 1628 01:19:15.680 --> 01:19:19.079 for cases that the Biera just couldn't imagine how we 1629 01:19:19.119 --> 01:19:21.760 would backstop certain things we were doing, and they didn't care. 1630 01:19:21.920 --> 01:19:24.720 But we were successful with it even though had they known, 1631 01:19:24.920 --> 01:19:28.680 just like Undercover Panthers, had senator at church known we 1632 01:19:28.720 --> 01:19:30.880 were going undercovered the Panthers, you were done crazy. 1633 01:19:31.319 --> 01:19:33.600 So you're working. 1634 01:19:34.199 --> 01:19:36.239 I like to describe it as walking up a stream, 1635 01:19:36.840 --> 01:19:38.720 splashing up a stream and turning over all the rocks 1636 01:19:38.760 --> 01:19:40.399 in the stream to try to make a casework. 1637 01:19:41.520 --> 01:19:44.479 It's that simple, just up the stream as an investigative concept. 1638 01:19:45.520 --> 01:19:48.119 So I went back to George and I said, I 1639 01:19:48.159 --> 01:19:50.680 have an operation coming up, and it's meeting of Russians 1640 01:19:50.840 --> 01:19:52.880 like we had before, but this has got to do 1641 01:19:52.960 --> 01:19:55.800 with the movie industry. So he helped set up a 1642 01:19:55.840 --> 01:20:00.920 backstopping which would be I would be a previously a 1643 01:20:01.000 --> 01:20:04.479 lobbyist in Washington, now a lawyer in San Diego, but 1644 01:20:04.600 --> 01:20:08.760 in fact I would represent Texas millionaires who would like 1645 01:20:08.880 --> 01:20:11.600 to invest money in a movie which could possibly show 1646 01:20:12.000 --> 01:20:14.000 in the theater down to the corner from where they live, 1647 01:20:14.640 --> 01:20:17.640 and as they said, it's just just as much gambling 1648 01:20:17.680 --> 01:20:20.199 as where you're drilling your next oil well, or what 1649 01:20:20.359 --> 01:20:22.399 the situation is with cattle next year, and that's where 1650 01:20:22.399 --> 01:20:26.039 they made their millions. So we set up this ostensible thing. 1651 01:20:26.680 --> 01:20:28.520 And George had been doing this with me for so long. 1652 01:20:28.560 --> 01:20:31.880 He was just so so good and helpful to the FBI. 1653 01:20:32.479 --> 01:20:34.399 So we set that up. But then I have to 1654 01:20:34.479 --> 01:20:37.760 have business cards. And back then, unlike today where you 1655 01:20:37.840 --> 01:20:40.199 can go online and get business card the next day 1656 01:20:40.239 --> 01:20:43.600 or print at your own business cards, back then you 1657 01:20:43.640 --> 01:20:46.000 cannot meet a Russian and pull out a napkin and 1658 01:20:46.079 --> 01:20:47.439 write your phone number on the back of it. 1659 01:20:47.920 --> 01:20:49.000 You got to be professional. 1660 01:20:49.680 --> 01:20:51.760 So as soon as we could get the cover, I 1661 01:20:51.840 --> 01:20:54.199 had a phone installed in my bedroom in San Diego, 1662 01:20:54.800 --> 01:20:58.600 had a fireplace in a marble hearth, and the phone 1663 01:20:58.720 --> 01:21:01.119 was there that the bureau installed. Then the answering machine, 1664 01:21:01.239 --> 01:21:04.199 message machine the bureau installed, and a sign on the 1665 01:21:04.239 --> 01:21:07.680 phone that said to my children, don't ever touch this phone. 1666 01:21:08.560 --> 01:21:11.359 This phone rings and they say, you know, Barnes residents 1667 01:21:11.439 --> 01:21:14.279 were dead, you know, so I did everything you said, 1668 01:21:14.359 --> 01:21:15.800 put a lock on it. But those are the kind 1669 01:21:15.840 --> 01:21:18.039 of things that you have to take in consideration. The 1670 01:21:18.119 --> 01:21:19.720 most wouldn't think about if you have a phone in 1671 01:21:19.760 --> 01:21:22.239 your house, who can answer it? Nobody did the message 1672 01:21:22.279 --> 01:21:24.800 come in, So we set up that kind of backstopping. 1673 01:21:25.079 --> 01:21:26.720 And I was going to go to the film festival 1674 01:21:27.279 --> 01:21:29.560 on a given day to get there on the first day, 1675 01:21:29.600 --> 01:21:33.039 but the business cards weren't ready, they weren't finished, so 1676 01:21:33.079 --> 01:21:34.359 I had to sit around and wait till the next 1677 01:21:34.439 --> 01:21:36.640 afternoon until they finally arrived. Because you had to have 1678 01:21:37.159 --> 01:21:39.279 the perfect business card to make it look like you 1679 01:21:39.319 --> 01:21:41.640 were what you said you were, and they of course 1680 01:21:41.680 --> 01:21:44.239 give you five hundred. So I ended up panning I 1681 01:21:44.319 --> 01:21:46.720 think three during the operation. So I still I had 1682 01:21:46.720 --> 01:21:50.279 four ninety seven cards, and you just don't hand them 1683 01:21:50.319 --> 01:21:52.119 out to people at the film festival, you know, because 1684 01:21:52.119 --> 01:21:53.720 when that phone rings residing. 1685 01:21:54.760 --> 01:21:58.199 I loved all the chicanery that you built around it, 1686 01:21:58.319 --> 01:22:01.199 that you had, like other FB eye agents like in 1687 01:22:01.319 --> 01:22:04.079 the crowd, pitching you their ideas as if you're this 1688 01:22:04.199 --> 01:22:07.800 big shot financier as Ivan comes walking by to sort 1689 01:22:07.840 --> 01:22:10.319 of build up your legend, and then and then you 1690 01:22:10.479 --> 01:22:13.359 kind of concocted this situation where he saved you from 1691 01:22:13.439 --> 01:22:15.720 falling into the pool, and that's your introduction. 1692 01:22:17.560 --> 01:22:21.000 Yeah, well, these are the kind of things that I'm 1693 01:22:21.000 --> 01:22:23.399 sure someone could make up, But I couldn't make this up. 1694 01:22:24.279 --> 01:22:26.880 And this happened just as told. The first one was 1695 01:22:26.920 --> 01:22:29.199 I needed to have backstopping, and that came through Polly. 1696 01:22:29.720 --> 01:22:32.800 I needed backstopping on a financial basis, and that came 1697 01:22:32.840 --> 01:22:33.399 from George. 1698 01:22:34.479 --> 01:22:35.359 But actually. 1699 01:22:36.880 --> 01:22:40.840 I needed to have something else. That's where the idea 1700 01:22:40.880 --> 01:22:43.840 of the cold the cold bump. I could not introduce 1701 01:22:43.880 --> 01:22:47.119 myself to Ivan. I could not find him. I mean, 1702 01:22:47.319 --> 01:22:49.000 we have been following the wrong person for a day 1703 01:22:49.000 --> 01:22:51.640 and a half or so, and when we finally located him, 1704 01:22:52.279 --> 01:22:53.840 he was in the crowd and I was the other 1705 01:22:53.880 --> 01:22:55.760 side of the crowd looking at all the other faces, 1706 01:22:55.800 --> 01:22:58.840 and finally I saw him. And then we had surveillance 1707 01:22:58.880 --> 01:23:01.560 where he was staying, who is with, and what the circumscaners. 1708 01:23:01.600 --> 01:23:03.119 We needed all those things as soon as we could 1709 01:23:03.399 --> 01:23:05.359 because someone's going to pitch. This guy has to have 1710 01:23:05.439 --> 01:23:10.800 the right moment at the right time. So the process 1711 01:23:11.119 --> 01:23:14.880 was I know, psychologically, and I'm sure this is in 1712 01:23:15.000 --> 01:23:17.239 my undercover handbook, but if not, I can write more 1713 01:23:17.319 --> 01:23:20.239 or another. At any point, you don't want to meet 1714 01:23:20.279 --> 01:23:23.239 someone where a person like that the Russian has not 1715 01:23:23.359 --> 01:23:24.359 already seen you first. 1716 01:23:25.279 --> 01:23:26.960 I don't want to bump into him and have it 1717 01:23:27.119 --> 01:23:29.119 look like a possible cold pitch, like a setup. 1718 01:23:29.920 --> 01:23:32.520 And there's don't know, two or three thousand people at 1719 01:23:32.520 --> 01:23:35.399 this conference in who was then the Low's Santa Monica 1720 01:23:35.439 --> 01:23:37.359 Beach Hotel. Now I think it's condos, but a big, 1721 01:23:37.680 --> 01:23:40.680 beautiful atrium and all the rooms have been converted to 1722 01:23:41.239 --> 01:23:44.760 shooting movies and tables converted, and all the beautiful women, 1723 01:23:44.880 --> 01:23:47.560 all the want to be directors, and all those sort 1724 01:23:47.600 --> 01:23:49.800 of things, just the circus you'd expect to have it 1725 01:23:49.880 --> 01:23:54.079 of conference like this. So we set up some of 1726 01:23:54.119 --> 01:23:57.760 the SSG the surveillance people. Again didn't know why, but 1727 01:23:57.880 --> 01:24:00.439 I took him aside. And one of the agents in 1728 01:24:00.479 --> 01:24:04.560 the g Handah was Crab. Another one's hooker, and they're 1729 01:24:04.600 --> 01:24:07.960 good friends from Washington. But they were out there and 1730 01:24:09.920 --> 01:24:11.880 I took them aside, and I said, I need to 1731 01:24:11.960 --> 01:24:15.479 have I even see me, and I need to know 1732 01:24:15.840 --> 01:24:17.680 surreillson him as he's going through the crowd. And then 1733 01:24:17.720 --> 01:24:19.399 they need to step six or seven in a line 1734 01:24:19.840 --> 01:24:22.199 and watch people pitching their movies. I mean they're doing 1735 01:24:22.239 --> 01:24:25.079 it all the tables. It's a thing. That's what they do, 1736 01:24:25.800 --> 01:24:28.159 not just Los Angeles, but at the film festival itself. 1737 01:24:28.720 --> 01:24:30.720 So I said, and then when I say so, when 1738 01:24:30.720 --> 01:24:32.600 you give me the word, I want you guys to 1739 01:24:32.640 --> 01:24:35.960 start pitching me. And I remember the first one. Someone 1740 01:24:36.000 --> 01:24:38.800 had the idea of having a after the TV show Friends, 1741 01:24:38.840 --> 01:24:40.760 which was very popular then, but making it into a 1742 01:24:40.800 --> 01:24:43.680 movie a little different actors and whatever. And then it's 1743 01:24:43.720 --> 01:24:45.640 what is your pitch and how much money do you need? 1744 01:24:46.399 --> 01:24:48.880 Those are the two ingredients, and that means you know 1745 01:24:48.920 --> 01:24:52.039 what you're doing, right. So you remember from the book. 1746 01:24:52.239 --> 01:24:53.760 People would come up to me, they'd lie to me 1747 01:24:53.840 --> 01:24:55.560 right away, but how much money they have or didn't have. 1748 01:24:56.119 --> 01:24:57.960 Someone was saying I have two million, i'd need four 1749 01:24:58.279 --> 01:24:59.720 so I only need two more from you, and they 1750 01:24:59.760 --> 01:25:01.319 say I would come up behind him and turn him 1751 01:25:01.319 --> 01:25:03.319 in and say he doesn't have any money, he wants 1752 01:25:03.399 --> 01:25:04.960 only two million, until he's trying to get it off 1753 01:25:04.960 --> 01:25:07.399 from you, you know, lying and cheating and stealing. In fact, 1754 01:25:07.399 --> 01:25:10.399 about the same time the movie Argo came out argu 1755 01:25:10.439 --> 01:25:13.600 with Ben att Fleck where he's rescuing I think Americans 1756 01:25:13.640 --> 01:25:15.520 from the Canadian embassy in Tehran. 1757 01:25:16.279 --> 01:25:17.199 I think that's what it was. 1758 01:25:17.680 --> 01:25:21.119 It was just at the same time, essentially, and I'm 1759 01:25:21.119 --> 01:25:23.640 watching Ben Fleck where he and the two guys in Holly. 1760 01:25:23.720 --> 01:25:28.479 I forget the actors, old older time actors at that point, 1761 01:25:29.000 --> 01:25:33.000 but they were Hollywood and they knew that people were 1762 01:25:33.039 --> 01:25:34.840 lying to them, and they were lying to other people, 1763 01:25:35.359 --> 01:25:38.439 and it showed you, like the greasy undercoating of boy. 1764 01:25:38.600 --> 01:25:43.119 Hollywood is a really disgusting place. And I'm like, I'm 1765 01:25:43.199 --> 01:25:46.079 right there now. I couldn't say to my wife, that's it. 1766 01:25:46.479 --> 01:25:48.760 That's that's what I'm going all these days and nights, 1767 01:25:48.880 --> 01:25:50.960 that's what it is. I couldn't say that boy boy 1768 01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:55.680 was the close parallel anyway. So I had to have 1769 01:25:55.760 --> 01:25:57.760 him see me first. So we set it up with 1770 01:25:57.840 --> 01:26:00.079 the with the SSG and they got in line and 1771 01:26:00.119 --> 01:26:02.319 they said, okay, and I couldn't have a handy talking 1772 01:26:02.439 --> 01:26:05.000 somebody else had it. I couldn't have any ears, you know, 1773 01:26:05.159 --> 01:26:08.520 ear plugs or biggly wiggly tails coming out of my ear. 1774 01:26:09.199 --> 01:26:11.840 I could not be on their connection, their communications system. 1775 01:26:12.439 --> 01:26:14.600 So they said, oh, he's coming, He's twenty feet away, 1776 01:26:14.600 --> 01:26:17.000 and they started pitching. And then as they started pitching 1777 01:26:17.079 --> 01:26:19.760 other people part of the festival, they pitched as well. 1778 01:26:19.800 --> 01:26:22.000 They got in line, so I had like fifteen people 1779 01:26:22.039 --> 01:26:23.640 in front of me instead of the sixth I started with. 1780 01:26:24.119 --> 01:26:25.119 So we went on did it. 1781 01:26:25.159 --> 01:26:27.760 And then when I haven't gotten nearby and someone one 1782 01:26:27.800 --> 01:26:30.039 of my people start saying something a little louder, a 1783 01:26:30.119 --> 01:26:33.399 little more, you know, to draw attention, and so I 1784 01:26:33.479 --> 01:26:35.439 haven't stopped. He turned out he watched it. Of course, 1785 01:26:35.479 --> 01:26:37.600 my deal is I cannot have eye contact with him. 1786 01:26:37.600 --> 01:26:40.000 I cannot have him believe I ever saw him or 1787 01:26:40.079 --> 01:26:41.880 know him at all. But he has to see me 1788 01:26:42.640 --> 01:26:45.119 right for what I have. And this is not I mean, 1789 01:26:45.159 --> 01:26:46.800 I have pride in what I do, but this is 1790 01:26:46.840 --> 01:26:47.439 not ego thing. 1791 01:26:47.520 --> 01:26:50.640 This is acting. I have to have the play. So 1792 01:26:50.800 --> 01:26:53.199 he sees me and knows that I'm there already. 1793 01:26:53.279 --> 01:26:55.640 I'm a person's you're building his comfort level. 1794 01:26:56.159 --> 01:26:58.119 Right, so the first time we meet, he has to 1795 01:26:58.199 --> 01:27:01.159 know me at least that I'm there already. And it 1796 01:27:01.279 --> 01:27:03.920 was successful. And then I told I thank the g's, 1797 01:27:03.920 --> 01:27:08.920 I think everybody else and the Hooker he was one 1798 01:27:08.920 --> 01:27:12.039 of the He got his handle from General Hooker in 1799 01:27:12.039 --> 01:27:12.560 the Civil War. 1800 01:27:12.640 --> 01:27:14.039 He's a Civil War buff. He does the. 1801 01:27:15.880 --> 01:27:18.920 Reenactment things and he was in the Washington Field office. 1802 01:27:19.439 --> 01:27:21.640 But h I said, I hope it's okay with the 1803 01:27:21.720 --> 01:27:24.159 g's that you know we did this, and he said, 1804 01:27:24.239 --> 01:27:26.279 I told him, he said, he's on my handle, but 1805 01:27:26.479 --> 01:27:29.520 I was in Washington was your training agent. And when 1806 01:27:29.520 --> 01:27:31.960 you're in a senior office will give you your handle. 1807 01:27:32.000 --> 01:27:33.920 He'll figure who you what you should be as your 1808 01:27:33.960 --> 01:27:37.479 handle on the radio. And he decided I was Captain Cosmic, 1809 01:27:38.039 --> 01:27:40.680 So I was either Captain coswor just the captain, and 1810 01:27:40.760 --> 01:27:42.680 they all knew what that was. So he said, I 1811 01:27:42.720 --> 01:27:44.960 told him, when you're dealing with Captain Cosmic, like expect 1812 01:27:45.000 --> 01:27:48.199 the unexpected, right that no one had done that before, 1813 01:27:48.279 --> 01:27:49.239 that kind of an operation. 1814 01:27:49.520 --> 01:27:50.119 So that worked. 1815 01:27:50.479 --> 01:27:52.920 Then it came for Polly, and I figured the Russian 1816 01:27:52.920 --> 01:27:54.640 had no idea who Polly was, and he was traveling 1817 01:27:54.680 --> 01:27:57.760 with an Armenian woman who was a producer in Armenia 1818 01:27:58.119 --> 01:28:00.399 in the Erava on their capital, and that was a 1819 01:28:00.439 --> 01:28:01.560 big step for them to come here. 1820 01:28:01.720 --> 01:28:03.680 So I don't know they wouldn't know who she was. 1821 01:28:04.279 --> 01:28:06.399 But if you've been nominated for Academy Award, if you've 1822 01:28:06.399 --> 01:28:09.319 done all things Polly did, you were Hollywood Royalty essentially. 1823 01:28:11.079 --> 01:28:14.199 So I went out and got Polly, I said, like 1824 01:28:14.399 --> 01:28:16.920 it's time, and so he said it the same sort 1825 01:28:16.960 --> 01:28:17.359 of a deal. 1826 01:28:17.920 --> 01:28:18.079 Now. 1827 01:28:18.880 --> 01:28:21.680 A couple of days before that, when I was trying 1828 01:28:21.720 --> 01:28:24.560 to find we're trying to identify Ivan in the group 1829 01:28:24.600 --> 01:28:28.600 of people, Leah Thompson came in and she was interviewed 1830 01:28:28.600 --> 01:28:30.520 at one of these tables where at the bright lights 1831 01:28:30.560 --> 01:28:30.720 and the. 1832 01:28:30.720 --> 01:28:32.680 Cameras and this is almost gonna be interviewed here. 1833 01:28:32.720 --> 01:28:34.840 And this guy with a sharp blasier and too much 1834 01:28:34.880 --> 01:28:38.640 makeup to be not on camera, and he interviewed Leah Thompson, right, 1835 01:28:39.199 --> 01:28:41.479 And I saw Ivan there in the crowd looking at her. 1836 01:28:41.560 --> 01:28:44.720 And she was known for being the mother and the 1837 01:28:44.800 --> 01:28:48.000 girlfriend and back to the future, and everybody there know 1838 01:28:48.039 --> 01:28:50.720 who she was. But did he know who she was? 1839 01:28:50.760 --> 01:28:52.760 And if he didn't know that, he certainly wouldn't know Polly, 1840 01:28:52.840 --> 01:28:54.439 but he might know the movies that she had done. 1841 01:28:55.199 --> 01:28:56.680 But I had to make it so that she became 1842 01:28:56.720 --> 01:28:59.119 a known quantity. So I said the same thing. When 1843 01:28:59.159 --> 01:29:03.239 I went out got Poby, we came back the surveillance people, 1844 01:29:03.720 --> 01:29:06.159 I said, we're following her when she comes in. We 1845 01:29:06.279 --> 01:29:09.720 get nowhere, Ivan is exactly by the front Hrium. We 1846 01:29:09.800 --> 01:29:11.239 had to either pay money or get a pass to 1847 01:29:11.279 --> 01:29:15.359 get in. And as soon as I came in with Polly, 1848 01:29:15.920 --> 01:29:19.239 somebody right beside ivan. She said, look, it's poll Platt, 1849 01:29:19.720 --> 01:29:21.760 and then four or five brothers said, oh yeah, poll Platt, 1850 01:29:21.760 --> 01:29:24.760 and they started to follow her wherever she went, because 1851 01:29:24.960 --> 01:29:27.560 she explained to me, the American film market is not 1852 01:29:27.640 --> 01:29:29.079 a place where the more senior. 1853 01:29:28.840 --> 01:29:30.720 People in the movie industry would go, right. 1854 01:29:30.840 --> 01:29:32.760 It's a place where people come with their scripts, where 1855 01:29:32.760 --> 01:29:35.159 they come with their movies, where they're from abroad, and 1856 01:29:35.199 --> 01:29:37.600 they want to have someone buy distribution rights for the 1857 01:29:37.680 --> 01:29:39.199 movies they already have with they go on the can 1858 01:29:39.399 --> 01:29:42.920 I already made. So it's not as much what Polly 1859 01:29:42.960 --> 01:29:46.359 would come to. And as she explained, without being an 1860 01:29:46.439 --> 01:29:49.920 ego miniafual person, she said, like, I'm elevating the whole 1861 01:29:50.119 --> 01:29:52.359 thing here by coming to this because my kind of 1862 01:29:52.359 --> 01:29:54.880 people don't come to this. So that's like, you know, 1863 01:29:55.039 --> 01:29:57.840 that's the benefit from the FBI to the film festival. 1864 01:29:57.880 --> 01:29:59.439 You know, have at it. That's good. 1865 01:30:00.319 --> 01:30:03.239 So when we came through the door and the retinue 1866 01:30:03.239 --> 01:30:05.720 started behind her, she was like the pied piper of Hamlin, 1867 01:30:06.159 --> 01:30:07.960 all those people behind her, and then others who knew 1868 01:30:07.960 --> 01:30:11.079 who she was. But I've said in the book, unless 1869 01:30:11.119 --> 01:30:13.319 you knew her personally, you wouldn't have approached her. You 1870 01:30:13.319 --> 01:30:15.000 wouldn't take your script and like throw it in her 1871 01:30:15.000 --> 01:30:16.039 face and say, please read this. 1872 01:30:16.199 --> 01:30:18.600 She was way above all that. In fact, she had 1873 01:30:18.640 --> 01:30:20.239 business cards, but she never needed one. 1874 01:30:20.600 --> 01:30:22.359 If you didn't who Polly Platt was, you didn't need 1875 01:30:22.479 --> 01:30:24.439 her business card. You wouldn't be seeing it at all. 1876 01:30:24.560 --> 01:30:29.000 She was of consequence. So as he went through with 1877 01:30:29.039 --> 01:30:32.079 the retinue, we knew where Ivan was, and we made 1878 01:30:32.119 --> 01:30:34.880 sure that he saw not this, but as we went through, 1879 01:30:34.960 --> 01:30:36.760 and then when he was going farther down the path, 1880 01:30:36.840 --> 01:30:38.880 we made sure we stopped at certain spots and he 1881 01:30:38.920 --> 01:30:40.920 would catch up and see all the more people. 1882 01:30:41.399 --> 01:30:43.399 And then people she did know who were more. 1883 01:30:43.560 --> 01:30:46.239 Senior, older people at the festival that she'd known from 1884 01:30:46.279 --> 01:30:47.960 years and years in Hollywood, you know, four or five 1885 01:30:48.039 --> 01:30:50.399 decades in Hollywood. They would come over and hugger and 1886 01:30:50.439 --> 01:30:55.399 talk for a minute, very formal, but very very my commode, 1887 01:30:55.520 --> 01:30:59.720 what's that? My just friendly, just a good relationship with 1888 01:30:59.760 --> 01:31:02.279 people that already knew her. But all these things stood 1889 01:31:02.319 --> 01:31:04.960 out for Ivan, who watched whoever this lady was, and 1890 01:31:05.079 --> 01:31:06.880 of course I was the one there with her. You know, 1891 01:31:07.039 --> 01:31:08.840 she was on my arm as who worked with the crowd, 1892 01:31:09.520 --> 01:31:11.279 So we made sure he saw all of that. So 1893 01:31:11.399 --> 01:31:12.960 not only did he have to see me in advance, 1894 01:31:13.000 --> 01:31:15.159 I wanted him not to see who Polly was. I 1895 01:31:15.279 --> 01:31:18.239 want him to know that Polly would Polly is a thing, 1896 01:31:18.399 --> 01:31:22.239 She's a person. She's a person of consequence, and he 1897 01:31:22.600 --> 01:31:24.359 would have no idea that all this took place or 1898 01:31:24.399 --> 01:31:26.239 why we were doing it. But eventually, when I wanted 1899 01:31:26.279 --> 01:31:29.279 to have get close to him, she was my ticket 1900 01:31:29.399 --> 01:31:32.720 to do that because he knew already she was a somebody. 1901 01:31:33.079 --> 01:31:35.199 And I think of him sitting back in his room, thinking, boy, 1902 01:31:35.279 --> 01:31:39.079 this is great. This this guy whatever my name was 1903 01:31:39.119 --> 01:31:41.560 at the time, This guy, this guy doesn't know but 1904 01:31:41.760 --> 01:31:43.439 I know I saw him before, and I saw this 1905 01:31:43.560 --> 01:31:45.079 lady Polly, and I know she's a big thing. 1906 01:31:45.279 --> 01:31:46.640 He doesn't know, but I know all about her. 1907 01:31:46.680 --> 01:31:48.800 He could even home and looked her up, he could 1908 01:31:48.880 --> 01:31:52.279 google her, you know, and that would have been important. 1909 01:31:52.359 --> 01:31:55.039 But that all was that setup, just to get to 1910 01:31:55.079 --> 01:31:57.319 the moment so I could have Ivan be right where 1911 01:31:57.319 --> 01:31:59.800 I needed him and able to do some manipulation. 1912 01:32:00.720 --> 01:32:03.359 So yeah, that's complicated, and I. 1913 01:32:03.439 --> 01:32:06.079 Don't think we've said it explicitly maybe, but it should 1914 01:32:06.119 --> 01:32:10.319 point out Ivan's background. He is not some KGB kernel. 1915 01:32:10.760 --> 01:32:14.000 He is actually a music journalist. He's a he's a 1916 01:32:14.039 --> 01:32:15.079 civilian really. 1917 01:32:15.600 --> 01:32:18.079 Yeah, and he was that wasn't music, but the film 1918 01:32:18.600 --> 01:32:21.199 he was not your film film he did. It was 1919 01:32:21.399 --> 01:32:24.399 he was a good writer and he did journalism things. 1920 01:32:24.720 --> 01:32:27.640 And so the reason why you guys were approaching him 1921 01:32:27.800 --> 01:32:31.600 was because he had been in one room at one 1922 01:32:31.680 --> 01:32:36.039 point in time, many years prior, in a Soviet embassy 1923 01:32:36.399 --> 01:32:39.640 and had seen an American come in and demand to talk. 1924 01:32:39.520 --> 01:32:41.720 To the KGB exactly. 1925 01:32:42.760 --> 01:32:44.319 That's outsidunding. Yeah. 1926 01:32:44.600 --> 01:32:48.680 Now we had we had two Russians, specifically two Russian 1927 01:32:48.840 --> 01:32:54.319 intelligence officers recruited Valerie Martinev and Sergary Motorin and again 1928 01:32:54.359 --> 01:32:57.319 in the intelligence community. They did not know they were 1929 01:32:57.319 --> 01:33:00.479 both recruited by the FBI, but they were, and they 1930 01:33:00.520 --> 01:33:04.640 called him Eminem Motored and Martinov, and one of them, 1931 01:33:04.840 --> 01:33:08.199 when he was being debriefed, he told this story and 1932 01:33:08.359 --> 01:33:10.560 he explained that it was because it was a buzz 1933 01:33:10.600 --> 01:33:13.800 through the embassy because a US intelligence guy walked into 1934 01:33:13.880 --> 01:33:17.439 one of their establishment offices and he said what he said, 1935 01:33:17.479 --> 01:33:20.640 which it could only be because he's doing spy things. 1936 01:33:20.640 --> 01:33:23.239 I mean, you're not looking for a project for your 1937 01:33:23.279 --> 01:33:25.239 kid who was in high school about maps of Russia. 1938 01:33:25.279 --> 01:33:26.399 You know, it's not the same thing. 1939 01:33:27.319 --> 01:33:30.359 But he was there when this took place, so he 1940 01:33:30.359 --> 01:33:33.399 wouldn't have known his name, even though the bad guy 1941 01:33:33.520 --> 01:33:36.359 never gave the Russians his name. But the fact that 1942 01:33:36.439 --> 01:33:39.079 he saw that made him a target for us. And 1943 01:33:39.479 --> 01:33:42.399 it was such a unique moment. The question is if 1944 01:33:42.439 --> 01:33:44.479 you met someone fifteen years ago, would remember their face? Well, 1945 01:33:44.560 --> 01:33:47.399 if you're in that situation, in that office and someone 1946 01:33:47.439 --> 01:33:50.720 comes in and has that conversation, you don't forget them. 1947 01:33:50.880 --> 01:33:53.159 Yeah, I mean, that's that's right. 1948 01:33:53.199 --> 01:33:54.880 And plus the fact that the buzz went around in 1949 01:33:54.880 --> 01:33:59.600 the embassy of what happened, it was something to remember. 1950 01:34:00.359 --> 01:34:02.960 So it would take having a conversation with him and 1951 01:34:03.000 --> 01:34:04.800 taking his brain back if you could convince him to 1952 01:34:04.880 --> 01:34:07.640 do that. And that's what the story is. But what 1953 01:34:07.760 --> 01:34:10.039 I've said before not to sound too long winded, I 1954 01:34:10.119 --> 01:34:11.960 realized I'm long winded at this point. 1955 01:34:12.039 --> 01:34:12.840 I apologize. 1956 01:34:13.159 --> 01:34:13.680 No, it's great. 1957 01:34:13.760 --> 01:34:15.960 All of that, all of that was a necessary set up, 1958 01:34:17.119 --> 01:34:19.760 and while this time it didn't require the pictures every 1959 01:34:20.000 --> 01:34:22.680 year at springtime of how many children are by the 1960 01:34:22.720 --> 01:34:26.760 red cherry blossoms. But that's the mentality to piece it together, 1961 01:34:27.399 --> 01:34:29.079 how to make the case work, so you will have 1962 01:34:29.279 --> 01:34:33.520 all the ammunition you can possibly have to make the 1963 01:34:33.600 --> 01:34:34.199 cases work. 1964 01:34:34.800 --> 01:34:38.239 So you were really working to develop this sort of 1965 01:34:38.319 --> 01:34:42.640 intelligence picture around Ivan and the entire setup. And I 1966 01:34:42.680 --> 01:34:45.239 guess we should point out that a couple other FBI 1967 01:34:45.399 --> 01:34:48.439 agents did cold pitch him and he basically told them 1968 01:34:48.479 --> 01:34:51.840 to fuck off. It sounds like, and so you had 1969 01:34:51.880 --> 01:34:55.279 to reassess the entire situation and like kind of start 1970 01:34:55.399 --> 01:34:58.159 over again from the beginning, get him back to the 1971 01:34:58.279 --> 01:35:02.199 United States and try this again. And the big epiphany 1972 01:35:02.319 --> 01:35:05.640 I think that you had was you realized it's got 1973 01:35:05.720 --> 01:35:07.000 to be a woman that makes the pitch. 1974 01:35:08.159 --> 01:35:09.159 Yeah, I don't want to. 1975 01:35:09.880 --> 01:35:11.239 I don't know how much you would like to reveal 1976 01:35:11.279 --> 01:35:12.880 in case someone wants to buy the book and have 1977 01:35:13.119 --> 01:35:14.279 any suspense go. 1978 01:35:14.680 --> 01:35:16.239 Over as much as you prefer. 1979 01:35:17.399 --> 01:35:20.760 Okay, let me go back to something which you mentioned earlier, 1980 01:35:20.800 --> 01:35:22.840 because you let certainly send a cat out of the 1981 01:35:22.880 --> 01:35:27.359 bag the moment of with all that preparation. Uh, it's 1982 01:35:27.439 --> 01:35:30.399 redundan to say in advance but all that advanced preparation, 1983 01:35:30.960 --> 01:35:33.279 I still had a meeting, and the question is. 1984 01:35:33.279 --> 01:35:35.560 How to do that? I did. We didn't know anybody 1985 01:35:35.600 --> 01:35:36.039 in common. 1986 01:35:36.760 --> 01:35:39.119 He was with a lady for Marmenia's book ar meaning 1987 01:35:39.199 --> 01:35:42.800 in Russian, so that was not the ticket in and 1988 01:35:43.319 --> 01:35:46.000 while there are other Russians at the film festival on 1989 01:35:46.079 --> 01:35:49.199 their own accord as from film studios in Moscow, they 1990 01:35:49.239 --> 01:35:50.479 were not connect with him at all. 1991 01:35:50.760 --> 01:35:52.640 In fact, they didn't even know him at that point. 1992 01:35:53.319 --> 01:35:55.600 So how do you howd he meet the man? How 1993 01:35:55.600 --> 01:35:56.960 do you? How can you possibly do that? 1994 01:35:57.840 --> 01:36:00.920 And uh, boy, like they said, elementary school, put your 1995 01:36:00.960 --> 01:36:03.880 thinking cap on, like it's got to happen somehow. 1996 01:36:04.479 --> 01:36:06.279 So they. 1997 01:36:07.680 --> 01:36:09.960 Her name was Anna Hit, which is an Armenian name, 1998 01:36:10.039 --> 01:36:14.119 but so and the surveillance people kept calling him the girlfriend, 1999 01:36:14.600 --> 01:36:17.680 but this was not a girlfriend. He's traveling, he's a 2000 01:36:17.720 --> 01:36:20.279 traveling translator and he's writing articles about her. But the 2001 01:36:20.359 --> 01:36:23.840 film festival, you know, he's a very business orient in 2002 01:36:23.920 --> 01:36:27.319 that regard. So they would go outside to the pool 2003 01:36:27.399 --> 01:36:29.680 almost any any moment where there wasn't some kind of 2004 01:36:30.640 --> 01:36:32.399 speech or something that they would be attending on a 2005 01:36:32.439 --> 01:36:35.319 normal basis, And they seem like they're at the pool 2006 01:36:35.359 --> 01:36:38.279 too much to me. But if you come, I guess 2007 01:36:38.319 --> 01:36:41.439 in February from Moscow, you'd like to sit outside at 2008 01:36:41.479 --> 01:36:44.880 Santa Monica by the pool where the sun beating down 2009 01:36:45.039 --> 01:36:46.840 instead of where you came from, which is like minus 2010 01:36:46.840 --> 01:36:50.600 twenty degrees in Moscow. So they would go to the 2011 01:36:50.640 --> 01:36:53.159 same table, the same place every time, right at the 2012 01:36:53.239 --> 01:36:55.079 edge of the pool. And this is where there's like 2013 01:36:55.119 --> 01:36:58.039 thirty forty tables. It's a beautiful blue pool. It's in 2014 01:36:58.159 --> 01:37:04.119 the in the right beside this enormously beautiful atrium building, 2015 01:37:04.840 --> 01:37:06.680 and the ocean is right out there and you can 2016 01:37:06.720 --> 01:37:08.920 see it in the beach, and it's just an exceptional spot. 2017 01:37:08.960 --> 01:37:11.520 And they're out there sitting behind the pool, and to 2018 01:37:11.600 --> 01:37:13.800 a certain extent they were talking, but as the surveillance 2019 01:37:13.840 --> 01:37:16.279 people reported, they're just sitting there, like why are they here? 2020 01:37:17.079 --> 01:37:19.560 And it was really for the woman, so she could 2021 01:37:19.560 --> 01:37:22.119 have made contacts, maybe have someone get her connected to 2022 01:37:22.199 --> 01:37:23.000 stuff in America. 2023 01:37:23.520 --> 01:37:25.039 I didn't think that was going to happen, but at 2024 01:37:25.119 --> 01:37:26.319 least that's what it seemed to be. 2025 01:37:27.000 --> 01:37:30.960 So I noticed that the edge of the pool of 2026 01:37:30.960 --> 01:37:33.520 the cowling for the pool was identical to what I 2027 01:37:33.600 --> 01:37:36.720 had at my house in Swlana Beach and just where 2028 01:37:36.720 --> 01:37:38.600 it's a little up at the edge and it's like bricks, 2029 01:37:38.680 --> 01:37:41.760 but it's round it. And I had two daughters at 2030 01:37:41.760 --> 01:37:44.640 the time who were like, I don't know, six and seven, 2031 01:37:45.319 --> 01:37:48.880 and I would play act with them. I would come 2032 01:37:48.920 --> 01:37:50.800 home from work and I would be still in my suit. 2033 01:37:51.319 --> 01:37:55.239 I'd have a suit nine millimeter forty rounds of amoal handcuffs, 2034 01:37:56.680 --> 01:37:58.840 and I would play by the pool as though I 2035 01:37:58.960 --> 01:38:01.520 was falling in. I would do this, oh that sort 2036 01:38:01.560 --> 01:38:03.800 of a thing, and they would always laugh. If I 2037 01:38:03.920 --> 01:38:06.000 was doing that with either my regular clothes and no 2038 01:38:06.439 --> 01:38:08.840 phones or but a bathing suit, I would fall in 2039 01:38:08.960 --> 01:38:10.640 with a big splash, and everybody would have a good 2040 01:38:10.640 --> 01:38:12.039 time other than I would just pretend. 2041 01:38:11.840 --> 01:38:14.319 To fall in. And I had done this before. Had 2042 01:38:14.359 --> 01:38:17.239 I not had those games with my daughters, this case 2043 01:38:17.239 --> 01:38:18.079 would not have worked. 2044 01:38:18.920 --> 01:38:21.119 This could not have happened. So they were at a 2045 01:38:21.159 --> 01:38:23.479 table which is right by the edge of the pool. Coincidentally, 2046 01:38:24.239 --> 01:38:28.199 so they had been outside, and I stood in a 2047 01:38:28.279 --> 01:38:31.079 corner outside in the shade looking at the sequence, at 2048 01:38:31.079 --> 01:38:33.159 which point I recognized what was going on with the pool. 2049 01:38:33.600 --> 01:38:35.279 So they got up to get in line with the 2050 01:38:36.119 --> 01:38:39.560 barbecue started and the spell of hamburgers and cheeseburgers, and 2051 01:38:39.600 --> 01:38:41.479 it was just a great smell wafting through the air. 2052 01:38:41.840 --> 01:38:43.800 And they got in line behind twenty or thirty people 2053 01:38:43.920 --> 01:38:46.279 to get their stuff. You get a starpham plate and 2054 01:38:46.359 --> 01:38:48.800 you have a can of soda and a hot over 2055 01:38:48.880 --> 01:38:50.760 or a burger and thing of potato chips, and you 2056 01:38:51.000 --> 01:38:53.560 walk back to your table and you sit down. And 2057 01:38:53.880 --> 01:38:55.840 so I got in line about ten people behind them 2058 01:38:56.600 --> 01:38:59.600 to get my burger and whatever. So when I got it, 2059 01:38:59.720 --> 01:39:01.800 I I locked my hand on it and with a 2060 01:39:01.920 --> 01:39:05.279 coke can over it and the potato chips so nothing 2061 01:39:05.359 --> 01:39:08.520 fell out. And I walked around to where I'd been before, 2062 01:39:08.640 --> 01:39:10.920 and then I went toward where they were by the pool, 2063 01:39:11.359 --> 01:39:14.319 and I'm weaving myself between these tables. They're round tables 2064 01:39:14.359 --> 01:39:19.119 six feet across, and place is fairly crowded. So I'm 2065 01:39:19.159 --> 01:39:22.720 walking between Ivan's table and the pool, and I'm balancing 2066 01:39:22.800 --> 01:39:24.560 on the edge. I'm kind of teeter tottering. And this 2067 01:39:24.600 --> 01:39:27.159 is exactly what I'd done like the day before, two 2068 01:39:27.239 --> 01:39:29.600 days before, with my own daughters. So I have my 2069 01:39:29.720 --> 01:39:34.279 hand with a styrofoam plate over the pool, and my 2070 01:39:34.439 --> 01:39:36.119 other hand is the left. You kind of balancing it 2071 01:39:36.199 --> 01:39:38.439 and hit the cowling. So I knew exactly where it 2072 01:39:38.560 --> 01:39:40.239 was and how to play with it. And I went 2073 01:39:40.319 --> 01:39:42.119 back and forth tottering and I did made the oh 2074 01:39:42.399 --> 01:39:43.159 like I was about. 2075 01:39:42.920 --> 01:39:43.600 To pool in the pool. 2076 01:39:44.000 --> 01:39:47.119 And all of a sudden, now he had a nice family, 2077 01:39:47.119 --> 01:39:49.359 he had twin daughters. We knew he was a good father. 2078 01:39:49.640 --> 01:39:51.439 I thought, this is the guy would save somebody if 2079 01:39:51.479 --> 01:39:53.239 he could. He wouldn't push him in the pool like 2080 01:39:53.279 --> 01:39:55.479 some of the KGB guys who were dogs would have done. 2081 01:39:55.720 --> 01:39:57.279 This guy reached out, he grabbed my arm and he 2082 01:39:57.359 --> 01:39:59.319 pulled me away from it because I was pretty much 2083 01:39:59.399 --> 01:40:02.039 unbalanced whatever, and he yanked me over and I sat 2084 01:40:02.119 --> 01:40:05.439 down on the table and yeah, I was wayne for this, 2085 01:40:06.119 --> 01:40:08.439 so I you know, I was just so relieved that 2086 01:40:08.479 --> 01:40:10.199 and fall in the pool and it was like a 2087 01:40:10.239 --> 01:40:12.159 heroic thing. And people all the tables around us, they're 2088 01:40:12.159 --> 01:40:14.560 giving him applause, they're clapping for him. He saved this 2089 01:40:14.640 --> 01:40:16.760 guy from falling in the pool. They don't know this 2090 01:40:16.920 --> 01:40:21.399 is part of an FBI operation, which is okay. So 2091 01:40:21.880 --> 01:40:23.680 so like he pointed a chair and I sat down, 2092 01:40:24.199 --> 01:40:29.279 and so I said, I want to thank you. He said, 2093 01:40:29.439 --> 01:40:32.079 your name is you know? And he said John, and 2094 01:40:32.560 --> 01:40:35.680 I said Wayne, And I was Wayne for this occasion, right, 2095 01:40:35.880 --> 01:40:39.199 And it came so quickly when I I what he 2096 01:40:39.279 --> 01:40:42.000 said nically, John Wayne heard it say it out loud 2097 01:40:42.079 --> 01:40:44.720 right away, and everybody nearby was still listening and watching 2098 01:40:44.720 --> 01:40:49.159 because it was such an entertaining scene. But it ringing 2099 01:40:49.279 --> 01:40:52.479 the name of the old Hollywood cowboy, John Wayne. It 2100 01:40:52.600 --> 01:40:56.039 was an amazing coincidence. Also, if his name was Ivan, 2101 01:40:58.039 --> 01:41:01.840 that translated in English as John. Most languages have something 2102 01:41:01.960 --> 01:41:04.760 like Ivan, and remaining they have Yuon or Yon and 2103 01:41:05.159 --> 01:41:07.760 in English ers Ian, you know Ian Fleming, but that 2104 01:41:08.039 --> 01:41:10.399 is all Ivan. It's based on Ivan the Terrible. It's 2105 01:41:10.439 --> 01:41:13.279 based upon John the Baptist, but all those of Ivan. 2106 01:41:13.399 --> 01:41:16.359 So anyway, so he went by John, and I call 2107 01:41:16.439 --> 01:41:18.840 him Ivan the book for clarity's sake. But to have 2108 01:41:18.960 --> 01:41:22.560 a Russian be I would say, kind enough or good 2109 01:41:22.680 --> 01:41:25.279 enough to make it easy for Americans to deal with him. 2110 01:41:25.760 --> 01:41:28.000 Instead of being called Ivan. If they could call him John, 2111 01:41:28.039 --> 01:41:30.720 they were feel much closer to him right away psychologically. 2112 01:41:30.760 --> 01:41:31.520 That was good for him. 2113 01:41:32.159 --> 01:41:34.119 So that worked, and I hadn't planned on that, but 2114 01:41:34.199 --> 01:41:36.680 it worked the way it did. So almost falling into 2115 01:41:36.720 --> 01:41:38.880 the pool. You know, it made the next piece of 2116 01:41:38.920 --> 01:41:41.520 the case fall together. And we sat down and talked 2117 01:41:41.560 --> 01:41:43.279 for you know, a long time. I learned about them, 2118 01:41:43.319 --> 01:41:45.239 all the stuff we wanted to do, I learned about them. 2119 01:41:47.279 --> 01:41:51.720 So eventually the meeting, the actual meeting that the FBI 2120 01:41:51.840 --> 01:41:56.600 wanted to have with Ivan, did occur, and he did 2121 01:41:57.000 --> 01:41:59.960 point out to somebody, do you want to kind of 2122 01:42:00.239 --> 01:42:02.640 like tell us, kind of like the follow up, like 2123 01:42:03.079 --> 01:42:06.039 what happened after your part of the operation. 2124 01:42:10.439 --> 01:42:13.279 You would mentioned something earlier about another couple of agents 2125 01:42:13.359 --> 01:42:17.880 that made a cold pitch. I just I wanted to 2126 01:42:18.079 --> 01:42:23.880 get back and address that just for a second. Psychologically, 2127 01:42:23.920 --> 01:42:26.359 if you want something to do, an action that they 2128 01:42:26.439 --> 01:42:28.600 might never do on their own or never want to do, 2129 01:42:31.199 --> 01:42:34.279 especially someone has any level of moral principles, you can't 2130 01:42:34.319 --> 01:42:35.000 pay them to do it. 2131 01:42:35.640 --> 01:42:37.520 You can't pay them to subvert their principles. 2132 01:42:38.039 --> 01:42:41.119 And everything showed me that he had high standards, raised 2133 01:42:41.199 --> 01:42:44.279 nice daughters, and had a good marriage, and seemed like 2134 01:42:44.319 --> 01:42:48.199 an honest and decent guy. And if you should have 2135 01:42:48.279 --> 01:42:51.920 a suitcase, which you say is like a million bucks, first, 2136 01:42:51.920 --> 01:42:52.560 it's very heavy. 2137 01:42:53.079 --> 01:42:53.840 It's heavything. 2138 01:42:54.840 --> 01:42:56.960 I've been involved in a number of cases, both in 2139 01:42:57.079 --> 01:43:01.000 the bureau and after with other investigations. If you have 2140 01:43:01.079 --> 01:43:04.239 a regular leather briefcase, it will only hold two hundred 2141 01:43:04.239 --> 01:43:05.119 and fifty thousand dollars. 2142 01:43:05.399 --> 01:43:06.960 If you have all money in one hundred dollar. 2143 01:43:06.880 --> 01:43:09.439 Bills, that's all that fits in a suitcase briefcase two 2144 01:43:09.439 --> 01:43:11.640 point fifty. Someone says, I have a million dollars here 2145 01:43:11.680 --> 01:43:14.840 or the lion to you, Okay, it doesn't fit. If 2146 01:43:15.119 --> 01:43:17.560 I got a million, you better have four briefcases. Bad 2147 01:43:17.640 --> 01:43:20.159 guys don't know that. Bad guys are selling back stolen 2148 01:43:20.239 --> 01:43:21.039 paintings for instances. 2149 01:43:21.039 --> 01:43:21.720 You know they don't know that. 2150 01:43:22.399 --> 01:43:24.439 So if you have a suitcase has a million dollars 2151 01:43:24.479 --> 01:43:29.399 in it, four suitcases or four briefcases worth, and you 2152 01:43:29.479 --> 01:43:32.239 say to someone you know, have knowledge I'd like to have, 2153 01:43:32.359 --> 01:43:33.840 and I'd like to give a million dollars for it, 2154 01:43:34.399 --> 01:43:38.520 that's called a cold pitch. Cold pitches and insult. You 2155 01:43:38.680 --> 01:43:41.520 don't want to insult people, But picture it this way. 2156 01:43:41.760 --> 01:43:44.399 If a Russian is offered or anybody, but if Russian 2157 01:43:44.479 --> 01:43:49.199 is offered a million dollars for certain information, first, it's insulting. 2158 01:43:50.239 --> 01:43:52.199 You know, you don't know me, you don't thing about me, 2159 01:43:52.640 --> 01:43:55.479 You haven't. I would say profiled him, but you don't 2160 01:43:55.479 --> 01:43:58.800 knowing about me. But worst of all is what's the 2161 01:43:58.880 --> 01:44:00.600 downstream from that? Say? 2162 01:44:00.640 --> 01:44:04.560 The man says, yes, he's in Santa Monica. He's on 2163 01:44:04.720 --> 01:44:07.640 a visa to get here. You cannot take a suitcase 2164 01:44:07.680 --> 01:44:10.000 with a million dollars in it through customs and get 2165 01:44:10.039 --> 01:44:12.680 back to Moscow. You can't put it in a bank here. 2166 01:44:12.800 --> 01:44:15.920 You can't put it in a bank there. You can't 2167 01:44:16.000 --> 01:44:19.199 hide it under rock. You have no friends here. You 2168 01:44:19.279 --> 01:44:23.479 can't turn it into cashier's check. There's nothing you can 2169 01:44:23.520 --> 01:44:26.399 do with a million dollars in his suitcase. It sounds good, 2170 01:44:27.439 --> 01:44:32.720 but it's simply impossible, not possible. There was another example 2171 01:44:32.760 --> 01:44:36.000 of why the coal pitch wouldn't necessarily work, and that's 2172 01:44:36.039 --> 01:44:38.359 based upon an extraordinary case which I've mentioned in the book, 2173 01:44:38.399 --> 01:44:42.039 but it's worth doing the vignette. There was a great 2174 01:44:42.119 --> 01:44:44.800 supervisor whose name was Nick Walsh, and he was over 2175 01:44:44.880 --> 01:44:48.359 the KGB, the gru Squad, the Soviet military intelligence. 2176 01:44:49.399 --> 01:44:50.680 They were really hard liners. 2177 01:44:50.760 --> 01:44:52.880 The KGB guys somewhere soft, some are harder, but all 2178 01:44:52.920 --> 01:44:55.520 the military guys were really hardliners. It was their job 2179 01:44:55.560 --> 01:44:57.239 to be hardliners. I mean they would meet people in 2180 01:44:57.279 --> 01:44:59.800 the Pentagon. They want to learn stuff, but they were 2181 01:44:59.880 --> 01:45:05.000 just hardline people. So we wanted to have an operation, 2182 01:45:05.159 --> 01:45:09.720 which Nick called pitch abum a month. We consider the 2183 01:45:10.000 --> 01:45:12.520 military guys to be bumbs like the bum on the street, 2184 01:45:13.000 --> 01:45:16.000 but pitch above a month. So what happened was in 2185 01:45:16.159 --> 01:45:21.039 January we had sources of various individuals who knew the 2186 01:45:21.119 --> 01:45:24.560 military people would have lunch with them. So on like 2187 01:45:24.680 --> 01:45:27.000 I think the third Thursday of the month, we made 2188 01:45:27.000 --> 01:45:28.640 sure at least a couple of our sources we're having 2189 01:45:28.720 --> 01:45:30.760 lunch with some of the military people at just a 2190 01:45:30.840 --> 01:45:35.239 restaurant out in DC. And at one point, if the 2191 01:45:35.640 --> 01:45:39.279 American drinks enough beer and has enough water and convinces 2192 01:45:39.279 --> 01:45:41.159 the Russian have as much, somebody has to go to 2193 01:45:41.199 --> 01:45:41.680 the bathroom. 2194 01:45:41.760 --> 01:45:42.479 Somebody has to pee. 2195 01:45:43.239 --> 01:45:45.119 So you would wait until the Russian would get up 2196 01:45:45.159 --> 01:45:47.840 to go to the bed's room to relieve himself, and 2197 01:45:47.960 --> 01:45:50.159 you take an FBI agent looks like an FBI agent, 2198 01:45:50.159 --> 01:45:52.920 we're in a suit. He would go into the bathroom 2199 01:45:52.960 --> 01:45:55.000 right after him, go to the urinal right beside him. 2200 01:45:55.760 --> 01:45:59.159 There's only a little partition there, and he would start 2201 01:45:59.199 --> 01:46:01.359 to peek. Russians they're paying and he would say, Hey, 2202 01:46:01.640 --> 01:46:03.279 I'm an fbigin. I have a lot of money to 2203 01:46:03.319 --> 01:46:05.600 buy secrets. You know, can you sell me some secrets? 2204 01:46:05.640 --> 01:46:07.279 And we would have a briefcase for something, but he 2205 01:46:07.319 --> 01:46:10.279 would do we call hard pitch, which is not made 2206 01:46:10.359 --> 01:46:12.880 to succeed, but it's made to be a hard pitch. Well, 2207 01:46:13.039 --> 01:46:17.359 Russians could normally just look nonchalant about it, but the pitches. 2208 01:46:16.960 --> 01:46:17.600 Were so hard. 2209 01:46:18.359 --> 01:46:20.920 So like, you know, I meet you tonight, I give 2210 01:46:20.960 --> 01:46:22.720 you this money, like your wife would really like it, 2211 01:46:22.800 --> 01:46:24.680 and you know you can you know, but I only 2212 01:46:24.760 --> 01:46:27.039 want good secrets. I mean to the point that they 2213 01:46:27.119 --> 01:46:29.680 have to report when they're pitched by the Americans if 2214 01:46:29.760 --> 01:46:32.199 you run right. And what eventually a person like this 2215 01:46:32.279 --> 01:46:34.439 would do is he'd go back out to the restaurant 2216 01:46:34.479 --> 01:46:36.119 and not even talk to the guys having lunch with, 2217 01:46:36.479 --> 01:46:37.720 right out the door in his car and right back 2218 01:46:37.720 --> 01:46:38.239 to the embassy. 2219 01:46:38.239 --> 01:46:40.000 And the guy had have security and say that, you know, 2220 01:46:40.039 --> 01:46:41.039 the Americans just pitched me. 2221 01:46:43.359 --> 01:46:45.600 So we did that once a month on a Thursday, 2222 01:46:46.600 --> 01:46:48.479 And the next month we did the same thing with 2223 01:46:48.560 --> 01:46:52.279 a different KGB, a different GRU officer. Next month, a 2224 01:46:52.279 --> 01:46:54.920 different gro officer, same deal. Third Thursday of the month, 2225 01:46:55.319 --> 01:46:58.359 and then in September, the ninth month, we didn't pitch anybody, 2226 01:47:00.039 --> 01:47:02.119 but in October we did it again, and November we 2227 01:47:02.159 --> 01:47:06.039 did it again. In December, so we made eleven pitches 2228 01:47:06.479 --> 01:47:09.479 but nothing in September. So the man in charge of 2229 01:47:10.039 --> 01:47:13.600 counterintelligence and security for the embassy, he gets these reports 2230 01:47:14.479 --> 01:47:17.920 and he has eleventh and no one came into him 2231 01:47:18.439 --> 01:47:21.319 on the third Thursday of September to say, hey, the 2232 01:47:21.439 --> 01:47:22.439 FBI pitched me today. 2233 01:47:23.680 --> 01:47:25.600 So what's going through his mind. He's going to be 2234 01:47:25.640 --> 01:47:26.600 a colonel in the KGB. 2235 01:47:26.720 --> 01:47:29.800 What's going through his mind is which of my officers 2236 01:47:30.000 --> 01:47:32.600 is now working for the FBI that didn't report the pitch. 2237 01:47:33.880 --> 01:47:35.000 It will drive him nuts. 2238 01:47:37.119 --> 01:47:39.760 Now, if one of them had said yes, we would 2239 01:47:39.760 --> 01:47:43.800 have real quickly pitched somebody else. But the whole idea 2240 01:47:44.039 --> 01:47:46.439 was to screw up the Russian system and the security people, 2241 01:47:47.039 --> 01:47:50.000 to put a bee in their bonnet. And it's a 2242 01:47:50.159 --> 01:47:53.560 cold war fun and games, but that's an operation, but 2243 01:47:53.680 --> 01:47:55.840 it's based on the fact that if you pitch somebody 2244 01:47:55.960 --> 01:47:56.720 cold for. 2245 01:47:56.880 --> 01:48:01.039 Money, it will be rejected. The whole base of the 2246 01:48:01.079 --> 01:48:05.319 operation was this doesn't work there, I was harassing, yeah, right, 2247 01:48:05.560 --> 01:48:06.640 So what happened. 2248 01:48:06.359 --> 01:48:10.000 In Santa Monica with two agents, decent guys, they knew 2249 01:48:10.000 --> 01:48:12.600 them well, but they were given this assignment. 2250 01:48:12.279 --> 01:48:14.600 To do a cold pitch with a suitcase full of money, 2251 01:48:15.680 --> 01:48:18.479 and like that was made to fail. But that was 2252 01:48:18.520 --> 01:48:18.960 the effort. 2253 01:48:19.279 --> 01:48:21.279 But then when that didn't work, and they tried twice. 2254 01:48:21.319 --> 01:48:23.880 When that didn't work, then they did the fallback of 2255 01:48:24.000 --> 01:48:26.479 you know, the Wayne guy. So now instead of just 2256 01:48:26.520 --> 01:48:28.079 being the undercover guy, now I was going to be 2257 01:48:28.119 --> 01:48:31.159 the pitch man. So I didn't I didn't make a 2258 01:48:31.199 --> 01:48:32.720 lot of noise about it. But how could they think 2259 01:48:32.720 --> 01:48:36.479 that would have worked with any Russian? So that's that's 2260 01:48:36.560 --> 01:48:38.800 more of intel knowledge and how a case works and 2261 01:48:38.880 --> 01:48:40.600 what the psychology. 2262 01:48:40.119 --> 01:48:40.439 Is for it. 2263 01:48:41.319 --> 01:48:44.640 Anyway, interesting, those those types of those types of details 2264 01:48:44.800 --> 01:48:49.960 were what made this book so amazing. And but let's 2265 01:48:50.079 --> 01:48:51.439 kind of like finish up. 2266 01:48:52.439 --> 01:48:55.760 Thank you for that, by the way, I really appreciate it. Yeah, 2267 01:48:55.880 --> 01:48:56.359 I'm glad. 2268 01:48:56.760 --> 01:48:59.960 Well if you can kind of round out the robber 2269 01:49:00.159 --> 01:49:05.039 Hanson aspect of it, so you're part of the investigation. 2270 01:49:05.239 --> 01:49:09.039 Resulted in Ivan pointing to this picture saying, this is 2271 01:49:09.119 --> 01:49:11.920 the guy I saw come in And then what have 2272 01:49:12.039 --> 01:49:15.479 you learned? Since you know the subsequent years. How the 2273 01:49:15.720 --> 01:49:18.279 rest of the Hanson investigation panned out. 2274 01:49:21.119 --> 01:49:23.439 First that from the day I retired, which was the 2275 01:49:23.520 --> 01:49:26.600 last day of two thousand December thirty first, two thousand, 2276 01:49:27.720 --> 01:49:30.319 I wasn't class cleared for anything. I had no one 2277 01:49:30.359 --> 01:49:35.000 more clearances, and I wasn't given any information. But during 2278 01:49:35.079 --> 01:49:37.439 the operation I did learn that he pointed out a 2279 01:49:37.479 --> 01:49:39.319 photo that's unequivocal. 2280 01:49:39.600 --> 01:49:40.199 That was the goal. 2281 01:49:40.920 --> 01:49:46.600 All this enormously complicated things took place, including getting back 2282 01:49:46.680 --> 01:49:49.119 him back to the US, which was an incredible story 2283 01:49:49.119 --> 01:49:56.359 in itself. The whole point was, as Gene McClelland, who 2284 01:49:56.800 --> 01:49:59.479 handles Red Pop everybody knows him as that as the 2285 01:49:59.600 --> 01:50:02.119 head of the SSGGIUS was like the father of all 2286 01:50:02.159 --> 01:50:06.319 the surveilling people. So Jean said that we were given 2287 01:50:06.359 --> 01:50:10.319 an assignment and we did everything they asked us for fine. 2288 01:50:10.359 --> 01:50:12.399 I meet him, befriend and recruit him, and show them 2289 01:50:12.399 --> 01:50:14.359 photos and have a point out a photo that was 2290 01:50:14.399 --> 01:50:18.680 our end game. Now, if the bad guy's pace wasn't there, 2291 01:50:19.279 --> 01:50:20.000 that wasn't on me. 2292 01:50:21.359 --> 01:50:22.680 I believe that it was. 2293 01:50:22.800 --> 01:50:26.760 But I don't have any idea because the photos when 2294 01:50:26.960 --> 01:50:30.119 they first met me in a hotel room in January 2295 01:50:30.159 --> 01:50:34.199 and San Diego. They showed me the photos they had, 2296 01:50:34.439 --> 01:50:36.239 like did I know any of these people? And they 2297 01:50:36.279 --> 01:50:37.560 were the ones suspected of being. 2298 01:50:37.439 --> 01:50:40.159 The bad guy. There were some CIA, some FBI, but 2299 01:50:40.399 --> 01:50:40.600 of a. 2300 01:50:40.640 --> 01:50:43.399 Certain age because this stuff happened in the eighties and nineties, 2301 01:50:43.960 --> 01:50:45.560 so they wouldn't be brand new people. 2302 01:50:46.880 --> 01:50:50.079 I only knew one or two, and I told them 2303 01:50:50.279 --> 01:50:52.279 the ones I knew, like this guy is suspect. 2304 01:50:52.840 --> 01:50:56.800 But after that, at various times the people who were suspected, 2305 01:50:57.039 --> 01:51:00.079 some were removed because they were no longer suspected, and 2306 01:51:00.159 --> 01:51:03.119 somewhere added to it as now this person suspected. So 2307 01:51:03.239 --> 01:51:05.279 I don't know who the pictures were I'd done other 2308 01:51:05.359 --> 01:51:07.039 than one or two I knew before that. I didn't 2309 01:51:07.079 --> 01:51:09.800 know who was added, who was subtracted, And I certainly 2310 01:51:09.840 --> 01:51:13.039 did not know who the photos were of that Ivan 2311 01:51:13.159 --> 01:51:14.000 had sitting. 2312 01:51:14.079 --> 01:51:16.840 In his lap at one point, so I was out 2313 01:51:16.880 --> 01:51:18.680 of that. But I know that I was. 2314 01:51:18.720 --> 01:51:21.680 Waiting for some headlines in the news from two thousand, 2315 01:51:21.760 --> 01:51:25.560 from the January first, two thousand and one on waiting 2316 01:51:25.640 --> 01:51:29.279 for some aspying the FBI, and it wasn't until President's 2317 01:51:29.319 --> 01:51:33.680 Day two thousand and one, which was January eighteenth. I 2318 01:51:33.720 --> 01:51:36.720 guess that it came out in Hanson was arrested. Now 2319 01:51:36.840 --> 01:51:38.960 I had every reason to believe that I was involved 2320 01:51:39.000 --> 01:51:42.119 with that, And if I weren't involved with that, at 2321 01:51:42.119 --> 01:51:44.479 the very least, I was a piece of the puzzle 2322 01:51:44.560 --> 01:51:48.079 of what was an enormous case which had his tentacles 2323 01:51:48.119 --> 01:51:50.279 all around the world. I know there were pitching people 2324 01:51:50.319 --> 01:51:52.600 in places like Tokyo, places like London. I mean I 2325 01:51:52.680 --> 01:51:55.079 was involved in one involved one in London, but there 2326 01:51:55.079 --> 01:51:57.720 are other places in the world. But you have to understand, 2327 01:51:57.720 --> 01:51:59.279 you can only make a cold pitch so many times 2328 01:51:59.279 --> 01:52:02.960 before you realize this isn't working right. Cold is not 2329 01:52:03.119 --> 01:52:06.079 the answer. So having that kind of experience helped. 2330 01:52:05.920 --> 01:52:07.680 Me to work the case. Also, like this has to 2331 01:52:07.760 --> 01:52:11.359 be soft, really soft, and then psychologically I have to. 2332 01:52:13.079 --> 01:52:16.000 Profile him. So that's where John Douglas came into it. 2333 01:52:16.039 --> 01:52:18.279 He wasn't with us at the time, but he invented profiling. 2334 01:52:19.039 --> 01:52:21.840 He started interviewing serial murderers in prison with something which 2335 01:52:21.920 --> 01:52:22.560 was not a lead. 2336 01:52:22.439 --> 01:52:23.520 For the FBI in general. 2337 01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:26.199 But he was in what they call behavioral sciences at 2338 01:52:26.239 --> 01:52:29.840 the time now it's Behavioral Analysis Unit BAU, and the 2339 01:52:29.960 --> 01:52:32.640 TV show Criminal Minds was based upon what John Douglas 2340 01:52:32.760 --> 01:52:33.680 and those people did. 2341 01:52:33.720 --> 01:52:35.720 I knew several of them. It helped with other counter 2342 01:52:35.760 --> 01:52:36.560 intelligence cases. 2343 01:52:36.800 --> 01:52:39.439 But John did criminal things, but we weren't doing the 2344 01:52:39.520 --> 01:52:41.399 same thing, but taking a hint from that, we were 2345 01:52:41.439 --> 01:52:44.439 doing it in counter intelligence assessing what is in a 2346 01:52:44.520 --> 01:52:48.840 person's personality, who's an embassy official who we could possibly 2347 01:52:48.920 --> 01:52:52.520 recruit a way before the Ivan case. Also, what is 2348 01:52:52.600 --> 01:52:55.319 it in the personality of a defense contractor, who's an employee, 2349 01:52:55.600 --> 01:52:57.359 maybe he's working for Boeing in the new B two 2350 01:52:57.359 --> 01:53:00.279 bomber wing, and what would cause him to want to 2351 01:53:00.319 --> 01:53:03.720 sell secrets to the Russians for money. That's a profile. 2352 01:53:04.760 --> 01:53:07.960 So worked in counter intelligence in those two diametric oppositions, 2353 01:53:08.680 --> 01:53:11.560 and essentially the answer was a crisis in their life. 2354 01:53:12.520 --> 01:53:15.600 We had a diplomat whose child was born at seven 2355 01:53:15.600 --> 01:53:18.239 and a half months by eight months, a pregnant woman, 2356 01:53:19.359 --> 01:53:21.960 wife of an embassy official all the block countries in 2357 01:53:22.000 --> 01:53:24.479 the Russians, but after back in Moscow or back in 2358 01:53:24.520 --> 01:53:26.960 their home country, so they weren't born in the US, 2359 01:53:27.039 --> 01:53:29.119 even though with the diplat father they wouldn't be quote 2360 01:53:29.159 --> 01:53:32.279 US citizens, but they didn't want him born here during 2361 01:53:32.319 --> 01:53:36.159 the any time pregnancy had to end in Moscow and 2362 01:53:36.479 --> 01:53:40.119 ra Pooch arrested. Whatever, so one fellows his daughter. His 2363 01:53:40.239 --> 01:53:42.600 son was born at seven and a half months and 2364 01:53:42.800 --> 01:53:46.600 the child needed heart surgery right away, and that particular 2365 01:53:46.720 --> 01:53:49.439 Russia knew that if his child were taken back to 2366 01:53:49.520 --> 01:53:51.680 Moscow he would die for sure if they couldn't possibly 2367 01:53:51.720 --> 01:53:54.399 do this. So we realized this, we learned what it was, 2368 01:53:54.479 --> 01:53:57.000 and we found exactly the situation. Doctors were very helpful 2369 01:53:57.600 --> 01:54:00.319 and we said, who is the best doctor in America 2370 01:54:00.439 --> 01:54:02.880 to pull this off? And this is very difficult, but 2371 01:54:02.920 --> 01:54:04.960 there's a guy and he'said a city, so he reached 2372 01:54:05.000 --> 01:54:06.760 out to him. He flew in for us and he 2373 01:54:06.840 --> 01:54:10.119 did the surgery and the kid lived. Wow, okay, so 2374 01:54:10.319 --> 01:54:13.560 what it's not leverage? But what does the Russian then 2375 01:54:13.600 --> 01:54:15.960 think of America? Like to picture all the people from 2376 01:54:16.359 --> 01:54:19.279 the World Cup soccer now where the scotsman coming in 2377 01:54:19.399 --> 01:54:22.039 in Norwegians and they're rowing and they're cheering, and they're 2378 01:54:22.359 --> 01:54:25.760 taking over Boston. Everybody loves them. You know, that's that's 2379 01:54:25.800 --> 01:54:29.039 a that's a fun fest, that's a celebration. What was 2380 01:54:29.079 --> 01:54:31.439 in the Russian's head when he realized that only in 2381 01:54:31.479 --> 01:54:34.319 America you know, he doesn't have to have an allegiance 2382 01:54:34.359 --> 01:54:35.880 to us. But that's the kind of thing that enables 2383 01:54:35.920 --> 01:54:38.760 you to pitch somebody, even soft pitch. You know, the 2384 01:54:38.840 --> 01:54:40.960 surgeon can say, you know, when you're here next time, 2385 01:54:41.079 --> 01:54:42.000 let me talk to you, and then they can have 2386 01:54:42.039 --> 01:54:43.840 a person like me in the room, say this is 2387 01:54:43.880 --> 01:54:46.520 a gentleman who was partly responsible for your son surviving today. 2388 01:54:46.600 --> 01:54:48.800 I will tell you he's in the FBI. He means 2389 01:54:48.880 --> 01:54:50.399 no harm, but he's a freendom mine. 2390 01:54:52.199 --> 01:54:57.119 That's that's kind of intelligence. Yeah, counter intelligence at his best. 2391 01:54:57.199 --> 01:55:00.159 So anyway, so now get back to your question. I 2392 01:55:00.239 --> 01:55:03.039 had no connection with it after I retired, but I 2393 01:55:03.119 --> 01:55:06.359 did know that the photogen pointed out they're trying to 2394 01:55:06.399 --> 01:55:10.399 find a way to zero in on the person whose 2395 01:55:10.439 --> 01:55:12.920 face was pointed out. I did not know until much 2396 01:55:13.000 --> 01:55:15.479 later that there was a fellow whose name was Brian Kelly, 2397 01:55:15.960 --> 01:55:19.600 who was a senior CIA officer at Langley, that he 2398 01:55:19.640 --> 01:55:20.720 had come under suspicion. 2399 01:55:21.239 --> 01:55:23.479 I didn't know why. I wasn't part of that, and 2400 01:55:23.880 --> 01:55:26.840 the books of various sorts hadn't come out at that point, so. 2401 01:55:28.560 --> 01:55:32.199 They was decided investigatively that he was the bad guy. 2402 01:55:32.279 --> 01:55:34.479 He was the mole. It was in the CIA, but 2403 01:55:34.560 --> 01:55:36.119 it didn't matter. He was the mole. 2404 01:55:38.000 --> 01:55:42.000 And I to my friends, I said, can't be. I mean, 2405 01:55:42.359 --> 01:55:46.079 it's just not the right pattern when the KGB would 2406 01:55:46.079 --> 01:55:49.159 do dead drop activities. That is, to have a person 2407 01:55:49.319 --> 01:55:52.520 like in the nineteen eighties, Johnny Walker worked for the Russians. 2408 01:55:52.560 --> 01:55:55.960 He was a naval intelligence guy, and then he had 2409 01:55:56.000 --> 01:55:59.319 a PI business in Richmond or someplace in Virginia, and 2410 01:55:59.439 --> 01:56:01.520 he was still getting secrets. He had his son who 2411 01:56:01.600 --> 01:56:03.279 was in the Navy and his daughter who was given 2412 01:56:03.319 --> 01:56:05.840 were giving his secrets to him, or that was his plan, 2413 01:56:06.359 --> 01:56:08.439 and he was selling them to the Russians. You know 2414 01:56:08.560 --> 01:56:14.279 that that kind of a person by hooker, by crook. 2415 01:56:14.960 --> 01:56:17.600 You know, they're stealing secrets and they're trying to get 2416 01:56:17.640 --> 01:56:19.800 in there. How you find out who these people are, 2417 01:56:19.880 --> 01:56:22.439 how you assess their personalities. Who would be a thief, 2418 01:56:22.439 --> 01:56:24.720 who would be a person giving away secrets. It's all 2419 01:56:24.760 --> 01:56:28.800 part of that profiling deal. So the idea of having 2420 01:56:29.960 --> 01:56:34.880 Brian Kelly be the bad guy took some investigation. 2421 01:56:34.920 --> 01:56:36.319 And then it became much more open. 2422 01:56:36.399 --> 01:56:38.800 And I learned that they had found the map in 2423 01:56:39.039 --> 01:56:42.479 his sock drawer, which they thought was a KGB map 2424 01:56:43.119 --> 01:56:46.479 or GRU map about where the next drop site might be. 2425 01:56:47.319 --> 01:56:50.000 And the problem was Brian lived in Great Falls, which 2426 01:56:50.079 --> 01:56:53.720 is good neighborhood north of east of Langley by the 2427 01:56:55.000 --> 01:56:58.600 Potomac River. Nice neighborhood, but it's also where Soviets had 2428 01:56:58.640 --> 01:57:00.840 done veryous dead drop activity. But he's this non person 2429 01:57:00.920 --> 01:57:04.079 communications over years, but he lived in that area and 2430 01:57:04.159 --> 01:57:06.239 he had the map which he said was his jogging trail, 2431 01:57:06.760 --> 01:57:09.880 you know, which he would jog, and the GRU maps 2432 01:57:09.920 --> 01:57:12.479 they looked very specifically in a certain way. Plus the 2433 01:57:12.560 --> 01:57:15.279 Russians wrote made the maps, not the Americans. And there 2434 01:57:15.359 --> 01:57:17.000 was always an X mark where the spot was going 2435 01:57:17.079 --> 01:57:21.840 to be, you know from Harrison Ford and his Indiana Jones. 2436 01:57:22.000 --> 01:57:24.159 X never marks the spot, you know, well, it does 2437 01:57:24.279 --> 01:57:26.199 mark the spot at the KG maps have the X 2438 01:57:26.279 --> 01:57:27.880 on him, and that's where the drop's going to be. 2439 01:57:27.960 --> 01:57:29.920 You go to across a one lane bridge, make a 2440 01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:32.039 hairpin turn, pulled to the side ten. 2441 01:57:32.000 --> 01:57:34.520 Feet in there's a stump. Put the rock right behind 2442 01:57:34.520 --> 01:57:36.279 the stuff that has the secrets in it. That's your 2443 01:57:36.279 --> 01:57:38.600 ex Well, they didn't have any extras on these maps, 2444 01:57:38.600 --> 01:57:40.720 and they weren't made by the Russians. But that was 2445 01:57:40.800 --> 01:57:43.880 one thing that seemed like evidence against him, and I 2446 01:57:43.960 --> 01:57:46.119 wish I had done the interview, but I wasn't around 2447 01:57:46.159 --> 01:57:48.840 to do the interview, so there was zero on to 2448 01:57:48.920 --> 01:57:52.960 somebody else. And at one point I learned that if 2449 01:57:53.039 --> 01:57:56.800 Evan had pointed out Brian Kelly, all would have been 2450 01:57:56.880 --> 01:57:58.880 right with the world for the people doing the investigation, 2451 01:57:59.039 --> 01:58:02.079 but they were in the wrong, and he didn't point 2452 01:58:02.119 --> 01:58:02.880 out Brian Kelly. 2453 01:58:03.399 --> 01:58:04.840 So at that point I don't know. 2454 01:58:04.800 --> 01:58:07.520 Whether they threw away the pictures or whatever happened to it, 2455 01:58:07.960 --> 01:58:10.520 but I wasn't part of that situation. Even within the bureau. 2456 01:58:10.560 --> 01:58:12.520 Was still the most tightly held case in the bureau. 2457 01:58:13.960 --> 01:58:16.880 I mean understanding the tightliness of the pace. 2458 01:58:17.760 --> 01:58:18.239 At this point. 2459 01:58:18.319 --> 01:58:22.760 The Bureau had a computer system, the Federal Information Management 2460 01:58:22.880 --> 01:58:25.640 Forms they call it, and all documents went in on 2461 01:58:25.720 --> 01:58:29.520 a digital basis. So if we had information about this 2462 01:58:29.680 --> 01:58:32.359 case or mafia cases or any kind of case, you 2463 01:58:32.439 --> 01:58:34.640 could search for the FBI computer, and he could search 2464 01:58:34.720 --> 01:58:37.159 to see if it was a case mounted against him 2465 01:58:37.239 --> 01:58:41.600 in the FBI computer. So I would meet him for 2466 01:58:41.960 --> 01:58:44.119 a meal or with Polly, and I type it up 2467 01:58:44.159 --> 01:58:47.199 at my hotel in Santa Monica that night I printed 2468 01:58:47.279 --> 01:58:50.680 out on the hotel printer and make sure that I 2469 01:58:50.800 --> 01:58:53.520 ran clean sheets through so my document was not left 2470 01:58:53.560 --> 01:58:55.800 on the barrel, if you will, And then go to 2471 01:58:55.880 --> 01:58:59.119 FedEx office and send it double wrapped to Jean McClellan 2472 01:58:59.199 --> 01:59:01.359 and alexandri Vige and he'd walk in in the next 2473 01:59:01.399 --> 01:59:05.039 morning to the office and they all read it. But 2474 01:59:05.159 --> 01:59:07.239 they never scanned them, never put them in the machine, 2475 01:59:07.840 --> 01:59:10.239 because the bad guy could have found out whatever was 2476 01:59:10.279 --> 01:59:14.199 taking place. So I did a Freedom of Information Act 2477 01:59:14.239 --> 01:59:17.399 request around twenty thirteen when I started to write this book, 2478 01:59:18.479 --> 01:59:20.560 and I gave them the code name I had, and 2479 01:59:20.600 --> 01:59:22.520 I gave them the file numbers, which I still knew, 2480 01:59:23.159 --> 01:59:26.399 and they came back a few months later like no record, 2481 01:59:26.560 --> 01:59:27.000 I don't have that. 2482 01:59:27.760 --> 01:59:30.359 They never scanned these things in So if I didn't 2483 01:59:30.359 --> 01:59:33.800 write this book, this wulld be gone. 2484 01:59:34.159 --> 01:59:36.039 So I had somewhere. 2485 01:59:37.039 --> 01:59:37.239 Yeah. 2486 01:59:37.399 --> 01:59:40.920 I I met a hill named Cliff Stall in the 2487 01:59:41.000 --> 01:59:43.960 early nineties at Quantico at a I was teaching some 2488 01:59:44.520 --> 01:59:47.680 classes at the FBI Academy and counter intelligence like that is. 2489 01:59:47.720 --> 01:59:50.079 They flew me back from San Diego to talk. I'm 2490 01:59:50.119 --> 01:59:52.640 happy that they did such a thing. But he he 2491 01:59:52.800 --> 01:59:57.680 was an astrophysicist at Berkeley, and he had he had 2492 01:59:57.720 --> 02:00:02.279 discovered a case which he wrote a book called The 2493 02:00:02.319 --> 02:00:04.880 Cuckoo's Egg and it was the bestseller at the time. 2494 02:00:05.359 --> 02:00:09.920 And a few years before, doing extra money at the 2495 02:00:10.159 --> 02:00:13.920 library at Berkeley, California, they gave him some accounts and 2496 02:00:14.000 --> 02:00:17.800 they said, you know, figure these accounts and just figure 2497 02:00:17.800 --> 02:00:19.520 where the numbers are. And he was an astrophysicist, he 2498 02:00:19.560 --> 02:00:21.960 could do numbers and accounts. And he found one account 2499 02:00:21.960 --> 02:00:24.079 it was seventy five cents off. This is when you 2500 02:00:24.159 --> 02:00:27.520 had telephones. You're putting in a receptacle and it's beeping, 2501 02:00:27.640 --> 02:00:30.560 and you're taught using computer time that sort everything, and 2502 02:00:30.640 --> 02:00:32.479 that was from that time in the late eighties. 2503 02:00:35.359 --> 02:00:37.079 But it was seventy five cents off. And he said 2504 02:00:37.119 --> 02:00:37.520 it can't be. 2505 02:00:38.119 --> 02:00:39.880 They said, dont worry about it's only seventy five cents. 2506 02:00:39.920 --> 02:00:42.680 He said, no, it can't be seventy five cents off. 2507 02:00:42.720 --> 02:00:44.520 I have to find out how that happened. So he 2508 02:00:44.640 --> 02:00:46.520 traced back through it and he found that it came 2509 02:00:46.560 --> 02:00:49.439 from the Red Stone Arsenal in Alabama, and he found 2510 02:00:49.479 --> 02:00:51.640 that someone had hacked into there and it turned out 2511 02:00:51.680 --> 02:00:54.720 with two East German guys working for the KGB hacked 2512 02:00:54.720 --> 02:00:58.279 from East Germany into the US military system, which is 2513 02:00:58.319 --> 02:01:01.159 what the original Internet was. And somehow when they put 2514 02:01:01.159 --> 02:01:02.840 their stuff in with the time, it screwed up the 2515 02:01:02.960 --> 02:01:05.039 numbers with how much money was being spent for time 2516 02:01:05.079 --> 02:01:07.920 on the computer that was seventy five cents. So he 2517 02:01:08.000 --> 02:01:10.199 wrote his book. He wrote his book called The Cuckoo's Egg. 2518 02:01:10.239 --> 02:01:14.199 That's Cliff Stall, that's coll and was he became famous, 2519 02:01:14.720 --> 02:01:17.159 but it was extraorday. It was the first computer hacking book. 2520 02:01:17.600 --> 02:01:20.920 There's people really understood about computer hacking. So he was 2521 02:01:21.000 --> 02:01:25.159 at Quantico also talking about his book and what happened 2522 02:01:25.159 --> 02:01:28.960 with the class to the class. So because he had 2523 02:01:29.000 --> 02:01:32.079 clearances at that point, he was allowed to stay in. 2524 02:01:32.159 --> 02:01:35.239 Here are some of my stories. So I told him, 2525 02:01:35.479 --> 02:01:38.079 you know stuff, I was undercover against the Hungarian against 2526 02:01:38.079 --> 02:01:39.159 the Czech intelligence guy. 2527 02:01:39.800 --> 02:01:43.880 And he stopped me after class and he said, you have. 2528 02:01:43.880 --> 02:01:46.159 To write a book, like I was two thirds of 2529 02:01:46.159 --> 02:01:49.119 the way through my career at this point, like FBI, 2530 02:01:49.279 --> 02:01:50.960 just don't write books that doesn't happen. 2531 02:01:51.520 --> 02:01:52.680 And he said, you don't understand. 2532 02:01:52.760 --> 02:01:55.520 He said, if every seventy five years the people from 2533 02:01:55.560 --> 02:01:59.159 the past, whether you were cavemen, or astronomers or dark ages. 2534 02:01:59.199 --> 02:02:01.600 People didn't write down that they saw this flame in 2535 02:02:01.680 --> 02:02:04.520 the sky, today, we would not know. That was Haley's comment, 2536 02:02:05.279 --> 02:02:06.760 And he said, it wouldn't be like they didn't write 2537 02:02:06.760 --> 02:02:07.399 it down, would be like. 2538 02:02:07.399 --> 02:02:08.720 It never happened. He said. 2539 02:02:08.760 --> 02:02:10.920 If you don't write this down, it won't be like 2540 02:02:11.039 --> 02:02:12.600 you didn't work this case. It would be like this 2541 02:02:12.760 --> 02:02:16.199 case never took place, he said. And that wasn't this case, 2542 02:02:16.239 --> 02:02:18.880 that was other earlier cases. He said, this is too 2543 02:02:18.960 --> 02:02:20.039 good not to write down. 2544 02:02:20.439 --> 02:02:22.880 He said, you have to. So that was the inspiration 2545 02:02:23.000 --> 02:02:25.079 for it. So he's still a an astrophysicist. 2546 02:02:25.439 --> 02:02:28.760 When I was in the process of getting approval by 2547 02:02:28.800 --> 02:02:32.840 the pre publication review people again, you might recall that 2548 02:02:33.600 --> 02:02:36.520 I sent it to the manuscript of in twenty sixteen, 2549 02:02:37.079 --> 02:02:38.920 and they have thirty to forty five days to review 2550 02:02:38.920 --> 02:02:41.800 a book, and usually they get back at that time. 2551 02:02:41.920 --> 02:02:45.520 But three years later, three years later, they wrote back 2552 02:02:45.560 --> 02:02:51.520 and said, no, you're laughing with me, right, So I 2553 02:02:51.840 --> 02:02:55.520 submitted it again with some revisions. I flew to Washington 2554 02:02:55.640 --> 02:02:59.479 three times from Fort Lauderdale, where I live, and argued 2555 02:02:59.520 --> 02:03:01.760 my case for all various reasons it should not have 2556 02:03:01.800 --> 02:03:05.000 been classified and Finally in the end of twenty twenty 2557 02:03:05.039 --> 02:03:07.640 three they approved it. So it took seven years, seven 2558 02:03:07.680 --> 02:03:10.239 years to get a complete publication review. And I've had 2559 02:03:10.319 --> 02:03:12.239 literally agency what took you so long, and said, well, hey, 2560 02:03:12.720 --> 02:03:13.439 talk to those people. 2561 02:03:13.439 --> 02:03:13.960 I didn't do that. 2562 02:03:14.520 --> 02:03:16.840 So that's how long it took to get the book reviewed. 2563 02:03:17.479 --> 02:03:20.039 So that gives an example of why in the nineteen 2564 02:03:20.079 --> 02:03:21.880 nineties I had no reason to believe I could write 2565 02:03:21.880 --> 02:03:25.079 a book with it whatever approve. But I had the temerity. 2566 02:03:25.359 --> 02:03:27.520 I had the timerity to write a book. But if 2567 02:03:27.560 --> 02:03:29.960 you want to write a book about your big drug 2568 02:03:30.079 --> 02:03:33.159 case in Detroit or a big kidnapping case in Tampa, 2569 02:03:33.640 --> 02:03:35.760 have at it. It was never classified. It was briefly 2570 02:03:35.800 --> 02:03:38.000 classified confidential what it was one going, so the bad 2571 02:03:38.039 --> 02:03:40.399 guys didn't know what's happening. But this one was the 2572 02:03:40.520 --> 02:03:43.920 most highly classified case in the bureau. To get to 2573 02:03:44.079 --> 02:03:46.119 the squad, which was called Gray Suit, that was the 2574 02:03:46.199 --> 02:03:48.279 undercover operation for the whole case, which turned out to 2575 02:03:48.279 --> 02:03:50.479 be the Answer case, you had to go into the 2576 02:03:50.520 --> 02:03:52.640 Fueld office and he went down a hallway and it 2577 02:03:52.760 --> 02:03:55.039 was a cipher lock, and you went through the cipher lock. 2578 02:03:55.239 --> 02:03:58.479 Ten feet later, there's the next hallway with another door 2579 02:03:58.880 --> 02:04:00.920 and through that cipher lock and in there is where 2580 02:04:00.960 --> 02:04:04.039 Graciouet worked. And there were a dozen maximum fifteen people, 2581 02:04:04.039 --> 02:04:06.600 but I think a dozen or so people there every 2582 02:04:06.880 --> 02:04:09.760 Friday afternoon. They were all polygraphed to make sure they 2583 02:04:09.800 --> 02:04:13.159 hadn't given up conversation anybody else. If they had, they 2584 02:04:13.199 --> 02:04:15.399 would be bent from the squad. And also they would 2585 02:04:15.840 --> 02:04:18.239 you not be able to tell any secrets after that either. 2586 02:04:18.800 --> 02:04:20.640 So it was the most tightly held case in all 2587 02:04:20.680 --> 02:04:22.960 the FBI because it was a penetration of the FBI. 2588 02:04:23.960 --> 02:04:24.680 So that was tense. 2589 02:04:24.720 --> 02:04:26.479 So when they came out to talk to me, I 2590 02:04:26.560 --> 02:04:29.640 didn't realize all of that how intense it was. But 2591 02:04:29.760 --> 02:04:31.720 so all those things go round the case. It isn't 2592 02:04:31.760 --> 02:04:34.239 just catching the bad guys. It's like Jesus. Yeah, the 2593 02:04:34.960 --> 02:04:39.319 logistics were absolutely extraordinary. Again, so I'm a long leash 2594 02:04:39.399 --> 02:04:41.079 agent and I'm happy they gave me the assignment. 2595 02:04:41.760 --> 02:04:45.000 I one more question. I was talking to a friend 2596 02:04:45.640 --> 02:04:48.960 and he asked me, or he advised me, that I 2597 02:04:49.000 --> 02:04:50.960 should try to get you to tell a story you 2598 02:04:51.079 --> 02:04:52.600 had about Robert Redford. 2599 02:04:55.479 --> 02:04:59.880 I'm sure was Robert Redford. Let's see, I don't know. 2600 02:05:00.960 --> 02:05:02.119 Maybe it wasn't. 2601 02:05:02.239 --> 02:05:06.399 I don't know some Hollywood person. Oh gosh, well I 2602 02:05:06.439 --> 02:05:09.880 can't think. Oh, yes, yes I know who. It wasn't 2603 02:05:09.920 --> 02:05:12.800 what it was? Oh you led me astray there. I'm 2604 02:05:12.840 --> 02:05:13.359 sorry to say. 2605 02:05:13.479 --> 02:05:13.760 Sorry. 2606 02:05:14.000 --> 02:05:18.319 You're my friend, now right, we can talk all right? 2607 02:05:18.520 --> 02:05:22.159 Gosh, boy, you just ping the right bell. So I 2608 02:05:22.359 --> 02:05:24.520 have a dear friend for years and years. His name 2609 02:05:24.560 --> 02:05:27.960 is Harry Gossip, and he was a criminal supervisor in 2610 02:05:28.000 --> 02:05:30.960 the Washington Field Office. Now of course long retired, and 2611 02:05:32.119 --> 02:05:35.199 he did a lot of organization of undercover things in 2612 02:05:35.279 --> 02:05:37.720 the criminal field, and I was doing the coordination of 2613 02:05:37.840 --> 02:05:41.359 uncovered counter intelligence. Like I said, two completely different spectrums. 2614 02:05:41.840 --> 02:05:43.880 You're working on a bank robery squad here, you're working 2615 02:05:43.960 --> 02:05:46.279 Romanians over here. You guys never see each other unless 2616 02:05:46.279 --> 02:05:48.560 you have lunch together. You never know contact at all. 2617 02:05:48.840 --> 02:05:52.680 It's like a different agency almost. But I had Harry 2618 02:05:52.680 --> 02:05:55.000 and I had befriended each other and we were good friends. 2619 02:05:55.680 --> 02:05:59.560 And Harry was having a party at his house and 2620 02:05:59.640 --> 02:06:01.960 an in Alexandria. One night he said, you ought to 2621 02:06:02.000 --> 02:06:04.399 come to my party. So I came to his party 2622 02:06:04.479 --> 02:06:07.119 and among other twenty or thirty people there, his wife 2623 02:06:07.239 --> 02:06:10.560 was an assistant US attorney and she worked at Maine Justice. 2624 02:06:12.039 --> 02:06:15.199 She was really a phenomenal individual, passed away during the pandemic, 2625 02:06:15.279 --> 02:06:17.279 but she was a great lady. So between the two 2626 02:06:17.319 --> 02:06:19.199 of them, they knew people from far and wide, all 2627 02:06:19.279 --> 02:06:21.600 sorts of individuals. So you wouldn't who would meet at 2628 02:06:21.640 --> 02:06:23.680 Harry's party. Wasn't like the guys down the street haven't 2629 02:06:23.680 --> 02:06:28.600 beer together. It was a much more cosmopolitan occasion. So 2630 02:06:29.600 --> 02:06:31.520 at the party was this spell named Grady, I think 2631 02:06:31.640 --> 02:06:36.720 James Grady, and I learned that he had been the 2632 02:06:36.760 --> 02:06:38.880 one who wrote the book which became the movie Three 2633 02:06:38.960 --> 02:06:41.680 Days of the Condor, which is your Robert Redford connection. 2634 02:06:41.840 --> 02:06:44.199 I've met him, small, I've met that author. Yeah, yeah, 2635 02:06:44.279 --> 02:06:44.600 good guy. 2636 02:06:45.520 --> 02:06:47.159 That's a small tale in the end of this well. 2637 02:06:47.159 --> 02:06:49.960 I saw him somewhere connected with all of your page, 2638 02:06:49.960 --> 02:06:51.960 which has voluminous information on it. 2639 02:06:52.319 --> 02:06:53.960 But I saw him there, much older guy than what 2640 02:06:54.039 --> 02:06:54.439 I had seen. 2641 02:06:54.720 --> 02:06:58.199 So Grady was at the party, and in fact he 2642 02:06:58.239 --> 02:07:02.079 had just written another book, writing detective type of stories. 2643 02:07:02.119 --> 02:07:05.399 And the cover was like a curb where there's a 2644 02:07:05.880 --> 02:07:08.359 evening and it's a woman's red high heeled shoe and 2645 02:07:08.439 --> 02:07:10.319 it's by itself in the curb, like a woman was 2646 02:07:10.399 --> 02:07:12.479 running away and shoe fell off, you know, a la 2647 02:07:12.560 --> 02:07:13.359 Cinderella or whatever. 2648 02:07:13.720 --> 02:07:14.840 But that wasn't cover of the book. 2649 02:07:14.960 --> 02:07:17.479 Harry had on his fireplace in a mantle and I 2650 02:07:17.560 --> 02:07:19.439 saw it and I thought, I got to meet this guy. 2651 02:07:19.920 --> 02:07:21.000 So Harry introduced us. 2652 02:07:21.720 --> 02:07:25.520 So I had a conversation with him, and when he 2653 02:07:25.560 --> 02:07:27.600 wrote Three Days of the Condor, as he explained it, 2654 02:07:29.199 --> 02:07:32.079 he didn't write that first. He was from Montana. I 2655 02:07:32.159 --> 02:07:34.920 think he'd never been outside the border of Montana. You 2656 02:07:35.039 --> 02:07:37.359 got to know how much cosmopolitan things are in Montana. 2657 02:07:37.880 --> 02:07:40.399 So he had never been outside in Montana, if maybe 2658 02:07:40.479 --> 02:07:42.439 for a short trip. But he was born and raised 2659 02:07:42.439 --> 02:07:45.039 and lived there, and he wanted to write a book, 2660 02:07:46.079 --> 02:07:48.520 and he thought of something exciting co'd write about. Obviously 2661 02:07:48.600 --> 02:07:51.199 turned to the CIA. I don't know if there's anybody 2662 02:07:51.199 --> 02:07:53.479 in CIA in Montana. But nevertheless we wrote the book, 2663 02:07:53.479 --> 02:07:56.760 which was Seven Days of the Seven seven Days of 2664 02:07:56.840 --> 02:07:59.399 the Condor, and it was the story of what happened 2665 02:07:59.439 --> 02:08:00.319 each success day. 2666 02:08:00.960 --> 02:08:04.760 Robert Redford, I can't believe this. We pieced this together. 2667 02:08:05.279 --> 02:08:08.039 Robert Redford at the same time was in Hollywood and 2668 02:08:08.119 --> 02:08:10.960 he was looking for a script or a story that 2669 02:08:11.000 --> 02:08:12.760 he could make in the movie where it would be 2670 02:08:12.840 --> 02:08:15.600 very inexpensive to buy the rights to the book, to 2671 02:08:15.680 --> 02:08:17.880 the book or wherever it came from us this book 2672 02:08:17.920 --> 02:08:23.439 to screenplay and screenplay the movie. So he had stacks 2673 02:08:23.479 --> 02:08:25.640 in when I was in polly Plats office, she had 2674 02:08:25.680 --> 02:08:30.399 stacks and stacks and stacks of screenplays scripts, each one 2675 02:08:30.560 --> 02:08:33.279 hundred and seventeen pages long, which I didn't know, but 2676 02:08:33.640 --> 02:08:35.920 they're in piles, and I can picture what Redford had 2677 02:08:36.000 --> 02:08:38.359 the piles, but he had the book. So he read 2678 02:08:38.399 --> 02:08:40.359 the Seven Days of the Condor and he thought, gee, 2679 02:08:40.720 --> 02:08:43.039 this would be really inexpensive to buy, and it looks 2680 02:08:43.119 --> 02:08:45.960 like an exciting story. So he ended up, you know, 2681 02:08:46.720 --> 02:08:49.840 buying the right show before grade even knew it. So 2682 02:08:50.000 --> 02:08:52.720 they had the screenplay written and they decided seven days 2683 02:08:52.840 --> 02:08:55.479 was too many days for a movie, so they did 2684 02:08:55.560 --> 02:08:58.079 Three Days of the Condor. So Robert Redford and Fade 2685 02:08:58.159 --> 02:09:04.840 Unaway where the lead characters in the book, and it 2686 02:09:05.000 --> 02:09:08.199 was very successful movie. The book then came out at 2687 02:09:08.199 --> 02:09:10.000 seven Days Conduit and it's sold, but it was the 2688 02:09:10.079 --> 02:09:12.920 movie which was successful. But here was the actual story. 2689 02:09:13.479 --> 02:09:16.680 So I met Grady at Hire's party and this is 2690 02:09:18.119 --> 02:09:22.640 it's after the movie by many years. And I said, 2691 02:09:22.880 --> 02:09:24.520 do you have any idea what the effect was when 2692 02:09:24.520 --> 02:09:27.680 the intelligence community? And I like, his brain is not 2693 02:09:27.840 --> 02:09:30.000 knocking him. I'm sure he's more cosmopolitan now, but his 2694 02:09:30.079 --> 02:09:32.199 brain was still the Montana brain. And I said, you 2695 02:09:32.239 --> 02:09:34.920 should know you set the US intelligence community back at 2696 02:09:35.000 --> 02:09:38.119 least twenty years, maybe twenty five years, in the relationship 2697 02:09:38.199 --> 02:09:41.399 with American citizens, because every American now saw that movie. 2698 02:09:41.479 --> 02:09:44.600 They think there's a special organization within the CIA that 2699 02:09:44.720 --> 02:09:47.159 has the goal of both getting money for themselves and 2700 02:09:47.279 --> 02:09:48.640 subverting US security. 2701 02:09:49.399 --> 02:09:51.840 And you told them that this is what the CIA does. 2702 02:09:52.359 --> 02:09:54.279 You told them that it's a building that reads all 2703 02:09:54.359 --> 02:09:57.159 the books that are published, try to find some conspiracy 2704 02:09:57.199 --> 02:09:58.880 theory in there, and then they find one, and then 2705 02:09:58.880 --> 02:10:02.800 people will start dying, and CIA hit group team comes 2706 02:10:02.840 --> 02:10:05.319 in and kills everybody who's there. That's what people believe 2707 02:10:05.359 --> 02:10:08.199 to say. Who set the US intelligence behind twenty twenty 2708 02:10:08.239 --> 02:10:10.720 five years because of your book and your thing. He 2709 02:10:10.800 --> 02:10:14.399 stood there like white faced. So I said, I'll tell 2710 02:10:14.399 --> 02:10:17.920 you one other thing. I said, a couple of years 2711 02:10:17.920 --> 02:10:22.159 after your book came out, there was a in the movie, 2712 02:10:22.239 --> 02:10:24.199 and the movie, of course came out. I said, there 2713 02:10:24.319 --> 02:10:29.319 was an Iranian not dissenter. What do you call them 2714 02:10:30.640 --> 02:10:33.800 against the Iran sim right, so who lives in the 2715 02:10:33.880 --> 02:10:37.720 Silver Spring, Maryland, And we had them with Russian people, 2716 02:10:37.800 --> 02:10:40.239 the Romanians and checks and polls when he got the 2717 02:10:40.279 --> 02:10:42.479 relatives out for prairaade air and the embassy make a 2718 02:10:42.520 --> 02:10:44.560 lot of noise to carry signs and that sort of thing. 2719 02:10:44.960 --> 02:10:46.800 But this guy was one of those individuals and he 2720 02:10:46.880 --> 02:10:50.079 was from Iran, and he lived in Silver Spring. And 2721 02:10:50.359 --> 02:10:53.960 one day he and the Iranian government, just like the 2722 02:10:54.079 --> 02:10:56.560 Russian government, they hate people like that in the US 2723 02:10:56.800 --> 02:10:59.640 because when you carry signs in their countries, it means 2724 02:10:59.680 --> 02:11:02.800 a big is like a demonstration. But out here cares 2725 02:11:02.840 --> 02:11:05.640 guy's got a sign on Capitol Hill. You know, give 2726 02:11:05.680 --> 02:11:06.520 him some money for lunch. 2727 02:11:06.560 --> 02:11:06.680 You know. 2728 02:11:06.800 --> 02:11:08.720 It's not the same thing in America, but there makes 2729 02:11:08.760 --> 02:11:11.640 a big difference. So one day a guy as a 2730 02:11:11.720 --> 02:11:14.319 mailman comes to his door, knocks on his door and 2731 02:11:14.439 --> 02:11:16.159 has a you know, a letter you have to sign for. 2732 02:11:16.239 --> 02:11:17.439 The guy opened the door and he took out his 2733 02:11:18.039 --> 02:11:18.880 ak forty seven. 2734 02:11:18.920 --> 02:11:20.079 He blew the guy I think it was an Uzi 2735 02:11:20.119 --> 02:11:22.079 and he blew the guy away and he killed this 2736 02:11:22.439 --> 02:11:28.279 This spellow from Haran and the story is that was 2737 02:11:28.359 --> 02:11:31.760 exactly what happened in Three Days of the Condor. But 2738 02:11:31.880 --> 02:11:33.920 the mailman comes to the door of Faye Dunnaway's living 2739 02:11:34.479 --> 02:11:36.199 and Robert read for a season. He looks on and 2740 02:11:36.199 --> 02:11:38.439 he sees his shoes and then not the shoes a 2741 02:11:38.479 --> 02:11:40.680 mailman should be wearing. It's a different kind of boot 2742 02:11:41.119 --> 02:11:42.880 and he knows that, so he quick slams the door. 2743 02:11:42.960 --> 02:11:44.880 Then they have a fight, tussle and repent. I's killed 2744 02:11:44.880 --> 02:11:48.880 in the guy the Iranian intelligence that Savakh. They took 2745 02:11:48.960 --> 02:11:52.680 that directly from this man's movie in order to kill 2746 02:11:52.720 --> 02:11:56.560 this guy. It'silver Spring again. His face went whitely. He 2747 02:11:56.680 --> 02:12:00.720 had no idea. But so that's the results of seeing 2748 02:12:00.760 --> 02:12:02.960 intelligence things which are either real or not real, and 2749 02:12:03.199 --> 02:12:04.279 having a bad action with it. 2750 02:12:05.079 --> 02:12:07.159 It's very odd to me. And this is like a 2751 02:12:07.199 --> 02:12:12.920 whole podcast and of itself about how fictional works are 2752 02:12:13.000 --> 02:12:15.640 made that claim to portray real events but they're not. 2753 02:12:16.199 --> 02:12:19.439 It's not really how espionage works. It's a work of fiction. 2754 02:12:20.079 --> 02:12:24.039 But those works of fiction sometimes actually do inspire people 2755 02:12:24.920 --> 02:12:28.560 in the real world and in a negative way, And 2756 02:12:28.680 --> 02:12:32.880 so they're mimicking the fiction thinking that it's the reality. 2757 02:12:33.119 --> 02:12:35.439 You know, I've heard stories even in the military, how 2758 02:12:35.479 --> 02:12:39.920 foreign militaries will watch American action films to get, you know, 2759 02:12:40.039 --> 02:12:43.479 tips for tactics, to learn how to clear rooms and things. 2760 02:12:43.560 --> 02:12:45.920 When it's like no Erld Schwartz and Agger in the 2761 02:12:45.960 --> 02:12:48.359 movie Commando is not you know, you know, a great 2762 02:12:48.520 --> 02:12:53.159 mentor for doing that. So it's just very interesting and 2763 02:12:53.279 --> 02:12:56.319 odd to me how the fiction is more real than 2764 02:12:56.399 --> 02:12:57.840 reality at a certain point. 2765 02:12:58.680 --> 02:13:02.119 Well, we've learned certain things from TV and certain things 2766 02:13:02.159 --> 02:13:05.279 that are that are clearly wrong, right. I mean, there 2767 02:13:05.359 --> 02:13:07.520 was a program in the FBI called the Development of 2768 02:13:07.640 --> 02:13:12.319 Espionage and Counterintelligence Awareness DECCA. We would give decal lectures 2769 02:13:12.359 --> 02:13:15.960 about security matters to all defense contractors in whatever area 2770 02:13:16.000 --> 02:13:18.800 you were in the country. I gave a few dozen 2771 02:13:18.920 --> 02:13:24.199 myself at Langley, at military units, but defense contractors, and 2772 02:13:24.399 --> 02:13:26.960 invariably someone would say what books should we read to 2773 02:13:27.079 --> 02:13:30.279 understand more about intelligence and security? And someone would always 2774 02:13:30.319 --> 02:13:33.239 ask about the Born supremacy of the Born conspiracy, you know, 2775 02:13:33.399 --> 02:13:35.960 Jason Bourne and I said, the difficulty is if you 2776 02:13:36.039 --> 02:13:38.600 read a Robert Ludlum book, by the time you finish it, 2777 02:13:38.720 --> 02:13:41.359 you'll have less knowledge of actual intelligence matters than before 2778 02:13:41.399 --> 02:13:41.800 he started. 2779 02:13:41.840 --> 02:13:42.119 The book. 2780 02:13:43.199 --> 02:13:46.439 So he was in the Pentagon, Ludlam in his youth, 2781 02:13:46.880 --> 02:13:48.880 in military uniform, and he went into a room where 2782 02:13:48.880 --> 02:13:51.079 there was a meeting he believed was part of and 2783 02:13:51.439 --> 02:13:53.840 colonel of whatever coming. He starts doing a briefing or talking. 2784 02:13:53.840 --> 02:13:56.000 He looks around, he's loved him. He says like, who 2785 02:13:56.079 --> 02:13:58.520 are you and the guy says, he says, you're not 2786 02:13:58.560 --> 02:14:01.560 supposed to be here. So that was less than fifteen 2787 02:14:01.640 --> 02:14:04.680 minutes in an intelligence briefing, and that was love them, 2788 02:14:04.840 --> 02:14:09.399 complete and utter only contact with the US intelligence. Everything 2789 02:14:09.439 --> 02:14:12.279 else was made up. Everything made up entirely. I mean, 2790 02:14:12.319 --> 02:14:14.640 it drives my girlfriend's name of Cynthia drives her nuts. 2791 02:14:14.640 --> 02:14:17.279 We're watching TV. Simple happened to say? They wouldn't do that. 2792 02:14:18.079 --> 02:14:21.640 Say it's not that because they wouldn't, especially intelligence things like, 2793 02:14:21.720 --> 02:14:24.680 for instance, if you want to pitch are Russian, who's 2794 02:14:24.720 --> 02:14:27.279 got the most piece of valuable piece of information the 2795 02:14:27.399 --> 02:14:28.079 US wants to have. 2796 02:14:28.479 --> 02:14:30.880 Yeah, we wonder about the Soviet submarines and they're running 2797 02:14:30.920 --> 02:14:33.000 this net. But the penetration of the FBI. 2798 02:14:33.039 --> 02:14:34.560 If you want to that one piece of information and 2799 02:14:34.640 --> 02:14:36.560 you say, hey, I know, let's take a suit case 2800 02:14:36.600 --> 02:14:39.560 full of money and make a cold pitch that'll work, 2801 02:14:40.760 --> 02:14:42.079 Like ask me that question. 2802 02:14:42.399 --> 02:14:44.640 You know, pitch Obama month. How can you do that? 2803 02:14:44.880 --> 02:14:45.039 You know? 2804 02:14:45.680 --> 02:14:48.600 So even within the bureau, they're asking things that they 2805 02:14:48.640 --> 02:14:51.760 say on TV which was which was a hor horrible thing. 2806 02:14:52.359 --> 02:14:54.159 So yeah, there's a lot of stuff on TV that's 2807 02:14:54.239 --> 02:14:57.119 still not real and it could be bothersome to people 2808 02:14:57.119 --> 02:14:58.920 who don't know the actual story. I've been in a 2809 02:14:58.960 --> 02:15:02.159 lot of writing courses in classes and eventually someone will 2810 02:15:02.199 --> 02:15:04.239 call me and they're writing a book which is like 2811 02:15:04.319 --> 02:15:07.359 a procedural cop thing where they have never carried a badge, 2812 02:15:07.359 --> 02:15:08.840 they've never carried a gun, but they want to have 2813 02:15:08.920 --> 02:15:09.720 this thing with cops. 2814 02:15:10.239 --> 02:15:11.880 And they say, so, how do you handcuff somebody? 2815 02:15:12.640 --> 02:15:14.239 I'm supposed to tell them the phone how to handcuff 2816 02:15:14.279 --> 02:15:15.600 somebody so they can write it in the book. 2817 02:15:16.319 --> 02:15:17.439 That's who's writing the books. 2818 02:15:20.319 --> 02:15:24.760 And well, your book is a trader in the FBI, 2819 02:15:25.119 --> 02:15:28.359 The Hunt for a Russian Mole. Look, I have this, 2820 02:15:28.880 --> 02:15:33.279 it's up. You find it on Amazon right now, the 2821 02:15:33.399 --> 02:15:35.359 hard copy or the books. 2822 02:15:38.840 --> 02:15:39.159 Wayne. 2823 02:15:39.359 --> 02:15:42.119 Thank you for doing this interview. Like I said, I 2824 02:15:42.239 --> 02:15:45.399 love the book. I'll be recommending it to more people. 2825 02:15:45.960 --> 02:15:48.560 And is there anything any final words? That you want 2826 02:15:48.640 --> 02:15:50.560 to put out there before we go tonight. 2827 02:15:51.840 --> 02:15:53.600 I'm very glad to be I'm very proud that we've 2828 02:15:53.680 --> 02:15:57.359 met each other somehow, and it's it's very special. I 2829 02:15:57.479 --> 02:16:00.119 was at the Crime Con convention in the end of 2830 02:16:00.239 --> 02:16:03.239 May early April that Nancy Grace started seven years ago, 2831 02:16:03.880 --> 02:16:05.960 like the Comic Con, but had six thousand people there, 2832 02:16:06.479 --> 02:16:08.920 and I ended up meeting her and she endorsed my 2833 02:16:08.960 --> 02:16:13.840 book on Instagram. So if people read it, I'd like 2834 02:16:13.920 --> 02:16:16.039 them to read it and without saying and this is 2835 02:16:16.119 --> 02:16:18.399 the this is the truth, this is it from my 2836 02:16:18.560 --> 02:16:20.920 part of it. Whatever happened after my piece of the 2837 02:16:20.960 --> 02:16:23.239 puzzle was over and someone said, he pointed out a 2838 02:16:23.279 --> 02:16:26.680 photo and that's that's my pop the cork day for 2839 02:16:26.880 --> 02:16:30.760 the Champagne. As Jane McClellan had said, we did everything 2840 02:16:30.800 --> 02:16:32.280 they asked us to do if they'd have the right 2841 02:16:32.360 --> 02:16:36.000 picture there. Not my fault, but what I would like 2842 02:16:36.079 --> 02:16:38.399 to And one of the objections that pre publication Review 2843 02:16:38.440 --> 02:16:42.000 had was, as they said, this is hard to say. 2844 02:16:42.760 --> 02:16:45.760 They interviewed Gene McLellan because he still had clearances, he 2845 02:16:45.799 --> 02:16:47.600 was still doing background and they didn't want to talk 2846 02:16:47.600 --> 02:16:49.479 to someone who didn't still have clearances. This is now 2847 02:16:49.760 --> 02:16:52.440 long after most people had retired, and they said, we 2848 02:16:52.479 --> 02:16:56.000 don't want Wayne giving the KGB a manual about how 2849 02:16:56.040 --> 02:16:59.319 the FBI catches spies. And he said, this is how 2850 02:16:59.600 --> 02:17:01.799 this is how the FBI catches spies. This is how 2851 02:17:01.840 --> 02:17:05.120 Wayne catches spies. And that's one of the nicest things 2852 02:17:05.200 --> 02:17:09.399 anybody said. So it is not to tell them, but 2853 02:17:09.479 --> 02:17:12.879 it's to tell young agents and advanced agents. Now, these 2854 02:17:12.920 --> 02:17:15.319 are the things you can do, and you just have 2855 02:17:15.399 --> 02:17:17.440 to have a clear mind and see what the goal is. 2856 02:17:18.120 --> 02:17:20.799 But you know, long leash, have a long leash, splash 2857 02:17:20.920 --> 02:17:23.280 up the stream, cover all the leads. It was a 2858 02:17:23.319 --> 02:17:25.399 great career, as you could tell. I loved every minute 2859 02:17:25.440 --> 02:17:28.959 of it. Sorry I'm not to now. I recover stolen 2860 02:17:28.959 --> 02:17:33.600 impressionist paintings. I'm a signature expert for personality and forgeries nationwide. 2861 02:17:33.879 --> 02:17:36.680 I John Solomon from Justin News. He asked me to 2862 02:17:36.760 --> 02:17:38.639 do a Hunter Biden's signature on the receipt for the 2863 02:17:38.719 --> 02:17:41.319 laptop in Delaware, and I did it and it was 2864 02:17:41.360 --> 02:17:43.920 in fact his signature. A few days later, fifty one 2865 02:17:44.000 --> 02:17:46.680 intelligence professionals came out and said it wasn't but it was, 2866 02:17:46.719 --> 02:17:50.000 and we all knew it. I did a paper on 2867 02:17:50.319 --> 02:17:53.840 whether Trump had signed the page in Jeffrey Epstein's fiftieth 2868 02:17:53.840 --> 02:17:57.040 anniversary birthday book, and in fact it was his signature, 2869 02:17:57.040 --> 02:17:58.840 but it was an apple qu applied to it. He 2870 02:17:58.879 --> 02:18:01.040 did not write that thing. So I do those kinds 2871 02:18:01.040 --> 02:18:03.239 of things as well. Now I testedify a lot, so 2872 02:18:03.319 --> 02:18:05.760 I had to reinvent myself. Time took to write the 2873 02:18:05.840 --> 02:18:08.360 book was enormously long, as well as the seven year 2874 02:18:08.399 --> 02:18:10.719 wait to get it out in public. So I'm very active. 2875 02:18:11.200 --> 02:18:12.840 As long as my ex wife still has half of 2876 02:18:12.879 --> 02:18:15.000 my FB annuity, I will work every day. 2877 02:18:15.760 --> 02:18:17.440 You're not laughing with me. I can tell you're not 2878 02:18:17.559 --> 02:18:18.079 laughing with me. 2879 02:18:19.760 --> 02:18:25.879 No, it's okay. I am also divorced. Where can people 2880 02:18:25.959 --> 02:18:27.079 go to find you online? 2881 02:18:28.840 --> 02:18:31.719 Additionally, well they can do. 2882 02:18:32.040 --> 02:18:34.200 The book is available on Amazon, like you say, for 2883 02:18:34.360 --> 02:18:39.079 ebook and audiobook, but Barnes and Noble has it online 2884 02:18:39.120 --> 02:18:43.719 as well target Simon and Schuster. My publisher is Republic 2885 02:18:43.760 --> 02:18:46.360 Book Publishers. I think they went through Simon and Schuster 2886 02:18:46.440 --> 02:18:49.559 for the actual publication. But I have a website which 2887 02:18:49.600 --> 02:18:53.159 is Waynebarnes Writing dot com. Wayne Barnes Writing dot com. 2888 02:18:53.639 --> 02:18:57.000 It has maybe five dozen essays about various things besides signatures, 2889 02:18:57.559 --> 02:19:00.479 just other cases that I've involved. There's also a Barnes 2890 02:19:00.600 --> 02:19:05.280 Hyphen Investigations Barnes hyphen Investigation, which has more cases things 2891 02:19:05.319 --> 02:19:08.520 I've written. Me just one last thing, and on writing. 2892 02:19:10.200 --> 02:19:11.840 When you tell someone that you work for the federal 2893 02:19:11.879 --> 02:19:14.280 government and you wrote a book, they pretty much think 2894 02:19:14.280 --> 02:19:16.840 you've written a book like a police report, like a 2895 02:19:16.920 --> 02:19:20.040 car of the color blue. And I spent a lot 2896 02:19:20.079 --> 02:19:23.239 of time in not just debriefing a record number of 2897 02:19:23.239 --> 02:19:26.239 intelligence people, but writing it up. And if I write 2898 02:19:26.239 --> 02:19:28.680 a poor page memo, a letter head Memoran would just 2899 02:19:28.760 --> 02:19:30.840 like the black panther memo. If I write it for 2900 02:19:30.959 --> 02:19:34.000 the a KGB colonel and Rominian generals and Hungarian whatever. 2901 02:19:34.760 --> 02:19:36.440 If I don't write it so by the page three, 2902 02:19:36.799 --> 02:19:38.600 If I write it so by page three, they're yawning 2903 02:19:39.319 --> 02:19:42.319 and they really aren't interested in page four, that's no good. 2904 02:19:42.920 --> 02:19:44.799 So I started using the adjectives and adverbs. 2905 02:19:45.479 --> 02:19:48.040 And Truman Capoti wrote the first book which we call 2906 02:19:48.159 --> 02:19:51.440 narrative nonfiction, that was in cold blood. He went out 2907 02:19:51.479 --> 02:19:55.079 the canvas Kansas, he saw the family killed in the farmhouse, 2908 02:19:55.079 --> 02:19:56.639 all the blood, and he wrote it like fiction. 2909 02:19:56.879 --> 02:20:00.920 But nonfiction, so that began that genre. This is narrative nonfiction. 2910 02:20:01.479 --> 02:20:03.159 It happened, but it's written like it worked. 2911 02:20:03.600 --> 02:20:05.159 So one day when I had sent one of these 2912 02:20:05.319 --> 02:20:08.479 four page memos to headquarters, which was a good story 2913 02:20:08.559 --> 02:20:12.159 from some defector, but comply a story completely within itself, 2914 02:20:13.799 --> 02:20:15.879 I was crossing Pennsylvania and he was coming from the 2915 02:20:15.920 --> 02:20:17.719 other side and he stopped me in the meetings to 2916 02:20:17.840 --> 02:20:19.040 He said, Wayne, Wayne, I have to talk to you. 2917 02:20:19.120 --> 02:20:21.840 Stop like the cars are zipping by. What do you 2918 02:20:21.879 --> 02:20:23.600 want And he said, I read that memo and he 2919 02:20:23.639 --> 02:20:25.840 mentioned the topic and he said, I got the page 2920 02:20:25.840 --> 02:20:27.319 four and I turned it over. He said, I wanted 2921 02:20:27.360 --> 02:20:31.399 more pages. And that was the first moment I realized 2922 02:20:31.559 --> 02:20:33.760 there may be something to this, that maybe I can. 2923 02:20:33.719 --> 02:20:35.600 Write this to make it a book. And that was 2924 02:20:35.639 --> 02:20:37.520 the craft of writing. So that's how it happened. 2925 02:20:38.840 --> 02:20:41.239 Well, we will have links down the description for the 2926 02:20:41.360 --> 02:20:44.360 viewers and listeners to find you to find the book. 2927 02:20:44.879 --> 02:20:47.719 And we really appreciate you joining us on the show tonight, 2928 02:20:47.760 --> 02:20:50.079 Wayne and telling us your story. 2929 02:20:51.559 --> 02:20:53.440 Thank you very much. I hope you smiled most of 2930 02:20:53.479 --> 02:20:55.559 the time. I certainly did, but I'm glad to tell it. 2931 02:20:55.959 --> 02:20:57.840 You know, there's more. I'll be glad to come back. 2932 02:20:57.879 --> 02:21:00.600 But the point is, if this book had any level 2933 02:21:00.680 --> 02:21:03.159 of success, I have other books that I've written. I 2934 02:21:03.239 --> 02:21:07.719 have saga about the FBI from the beginning of my 2935 02:21:07.840 --> 02:21:10.079 part of it from seventy one onto the nineties, the 2936 02:21:10.319 --> 02:21:12.719 FBI's role during the Cold War, and how we helped. 2937 02:21:12.520 --> 02:21:13.479 The Berlin Wall come down. 2938 02:21:14.280 --> 02:21:16.319 That's longer, but it has too many words to be 2939 02:21:16.399 --> 02:21:17.559 a first book. 2940 02:21:17.959 --> 02:21:19.280 Like Ken Follett would write. 2941 02:21:20.280 --> 02:21:24.000 He wrote I the Needle and various spy books, and 2942 02:21:24.079 --> 02:21:25.440 he said, I want to write a different book, and 2943 02:21:25.479 --> 02:21:27.840 they said, no, no, no, you've got a great way 2944 02:21:27.840 --> 02:21:29.280 you're writing. We've got we'll make a lot of money. 2945 02:21:29.280 --> 02:21:30.479 He said, I won't writ into the book until you 2946 02:21:30.520 --> 02:21:31.920 publish this book. I want to write now. 2947 02:21:32.440 --> 02:21:34.399 And his publisher, in his literation, said what's it about? 2948 02:21:34.440 --> 02:21:36.639 And he said, well, it's about building a cathedral in 2949 02:21:36.760 --> 02:21:39.879 southern England in the year twelve sixty five. And they said, 2950 02:21:40.000 --> 02:21:42.399 no way. So he wrote it and they published was 2951 02:21:42.520 --> 02:21:45.040 Pillars of the Earth. It sold more books than all 2952 02:21:45.040 --> 02:21:47.040 of his other books combined. Then it was movies, three 2953 02:21:47.079 --> 02:21:49.959 part series on Netflix. It was phenomenal, but he couldn't 2954 02:21:49.959 --> 02:21:52.040 get that publish because it was too long. So my 2955 02:21:52.280 --> 02:21:54.440 other book, which is called The Dance Before the Wall, 2956 02:21:54.799 --> 02:21:56.280 Interplay of intelligence actions on. 2957 02:21:56.399 --> 02:21:59.280 Our side of the Berlin Wall, it is it's the best. 2958 02:21:59.639 --> 02:22:01.200 I like it more than this, but it is the 2959 02:22:01.239 --> 02:22:03.600 story of the FBI and the Cold War. But it 2960 02:22:03.680 --> 02:22:06.000 was far too long for first book. So this is 2961 02:22:06.079 --> 02:22:06.399 the book. 2962 02:22:06.639 --> 02:22:09.360 But when you're ready to get it out there, shoot 2963 02:22:09.360 --> 02:22:10.239 me an email please. 2964 02:22:12.360 --> 02:22:14.079 All right, thank you very much for this. I really 2965 02:22:14.120 --> 02:22:16.840 really appreciate it. Yeah, it's been very, very wonderful. 2966 02:22:17.040 --> 02:22:19.879 Yeah, thank you Win and thank you everyone who joined 2967 02:22:19.959 --> 02:22:27.159 us tonight. We will see you guys again next week. Hey, guys, 2968 02:22:27.200 --> 02:22:29.040 I want to take a moment to tell you about 2969 02:22:29.079 --> 02:22:32.840 the Team House podcast newsletter. If you go and subscribe, 2970 02:22:33.000 --> 02:22:36.239 it's totally free, and what it will do is aggregate 2971 02:22:36.440 --> 02:22:39.079 all of our data, all of our content that we 2972 02:22:39.200 --> 02:22:42.200 put out, the things that are on the Team House 2973 02:22:42.799 --> 02:22:47.280 on our geopolitics podcast, Eyes On, things that I write 2974 02:22:47.360 --> 02:22:51.440 journalistically with Sean Naylor on the High Side, anything else 2975 02:22:51.479 --> 02:22:56.120 that we have going on books, we recommend upcoming guests 2976 02:22:56.159 --> 02:22:59.159 that we have coming on the show, and also you know, 2977 02:22:59.239 --> 02:23:02.479 filtering in some fun stuff in there as well. If 2978 02:23:02.520 --> 02:23:04.040 you go and check it out. We send it out 2979 02:23:04.159 --> 02:23:06.280 just once a week. We don't want to spam you guys. 2980 02:23:06.520 --> 02:23:08.520 It's just a kind of roll up of all of 2981 02:23:08.639 --> 02:23:12.000 our content on a weekly basis. You can find our 2982 02:23:12.120 --> 02:23:17.879 newsletter at teamhouse podcast dot kit dot com slash join again. 2983 02:23:18.079 --> 02:23:21.399 The website for that is teamhouse podcast dot kit dot 2984 02:23:21.520 --> 02:23:24.360 com slash join. Uh So we hope to see you there. 2985 02:23:25.079 --> 02:23:26.399 The link will be down the description