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Speaker 3: See you.
Speaker 1: There is on his way. Devil is on his way.
Speaker 2: Devil is on his way.
Speaker 1: Mother for the Devil gonna make you pay foul to
Speaker 1: your knees. Devil is on his way. Foul to your knees.
Speaker 2: DEVI gonna make you pay five to your knees.
Speaker 3: Devil.
Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, welcome back to Mountain Murders and I'm Dylan.
Speaker 3: Did you have a nice break?
Speaker 1: Dylan I'm disappointed right now.
Speaker 3: We have a little holiday break.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had a little holiday break and that was
Speaker 1: great with friends from R and R with good But
Speaker 1: we need to get back to the The problem at
Speaker 1: hand at the moment is you just asked for a
Speaker 1: drink of my drink, right, and then I think you
Speaker 1: took a sup. But then you said it ends up
Speaker 1: you took a swig and nobody cleared you for taking
Speaker 1: a swig. That's like a lot you took that. That
Speaker 1: was a big drink.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, are we really having this conversation doing
Speaker 3: the difference between a sip, a SUP, a.
Speaker 1: Drink or a swig wig? Yeah, yeah, it matters.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad that you're breaking it down for us.
Speaker 3: I did not know there were differences or distinctions between
Speaker 3: the various forms of imbibing a beverage.
Speaker 1: Yes, and they're all easily measurable by the fluid ounce.
Speaker 3: All right, Dylan, enough of you. We've all missed you,
Speaker 3: we've missed your antics.
Speaker 1: And here we are in the studio. We're so glad
Speaker 1: to be back because we have been out and about
Speaker 1: in the world, hanging with friends, given thanks to this
Speaker 1: great country of ioas we've.
Speaker 3: Been out and about in the world, and we're glad
Speaker 3: to be back home and away from the world.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding. We did have a great trip out
Speaker 3: of town with some friends, very nice, relaxing, beautiful mountain views.
Speaker 3: Really makes me miss our mountain home doing.
Speaker 1: Yes, it did.
Speaker 3: Headed out on the lake, got to got to go
Speaker 3: to an old swimming hole, getting a crik.
Speaker 1: Got to go floating a crick.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm like a little fish. I dry out,
Speaker 3: so you gotta throw me in the water. Ever so often,
Speaker 3: I just gotta go float.
Speaker 1: It was lovely.
Speaker 3: I miss the cold cricks, the cold mountain creek.
Speaker 1: Water, yes, and the nice cool evening breezes. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So hopefully you guys had a great Fourth of
Speaker 3: July holiday. I know I'm prouder to be in America
Speaker 3: now than ever before. Y'all to fifty.
Speaker 1: That's right, Okay, once in a lifetime celebrated.
Speaker 3: Are you ready to get into today's case, Dylan.
Speaker 1: Yes, as soon as I run some kittens off.
Speaker 3: Okay, Before we jump into today's case, we wanted to
Speaker 3: spend a few minutes discussing something that's a bigger part
Speaker 3: of everyday life than most people well most of us
Speaker 3: really ever imagined, and it's going to be a recurring
Speaker 3: subject throughout this case.
Speaker 1: Okay, free speech, Oh, free speech.
Speaker 3: I'm a big proponent of the First Amendment. I'm a
Speaker 3: journalist by nature, I have worked in that field for
Speaker 3: many years, and so of course I'm always about First
Speaker 3: Amendment rights, freedom of speech, freedom of the press. I
Speaker 3: think it's a very important cornerstone of our nation.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I agree with you completely, and because I
Speaker 1: think without free speech, our this nation of America would
Speaker 1: look very different, right, And I think the free speech
Speaker 1: each leads to so many kind of props up many
Speaker 1: more rights, right.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's definitely, like
Speaker 3: probably one of the most important rights we have as
Speaker 3: a people in this country. And it seems like everywhere
Speaker 3: you look social media, the news, workplaces, schools, even around
Speaker 3: the dinner table, people are arguing over what should or
Speaker 3: shouldn't be said, who's been canceled, and where the line
Speaker 3: is between expressing an opinion and causing harm. In the
Speaker 3: United States, the First Amendment is one of the cornerstones
Speaker 3: of our constitution, as I've said before, and it protects
Speaker 3: the right to speak to express opinions, to criticize those
Speaker 3: in power, to practice religion freely, to assemble peacefully, and
Speaker 3: to petition the government. Those protections have allowed difficult conversations,
Speaker 3: social movements, and challenges to its authority throughout our country's history.
Speaker 3: And at the same time, the First Amendment doesn't mean
Speaker 3: every opinion will be popular or free from criticism, and
Speaker 3: it doesn't prevent private businesses or platforms from setting their
Speaker 3: own rules. That's an important distinction that is often lost
Speaker 3: in today's conversations. So here at Mountain Murders, we believe
Speaker 3: people can disagree without becoming enemies. We don't expect everyone
Speaker 3: listening to share our opinions, and frankly, that's part of
Speaker 3: living in a free society. Healthy debate, respectful disagreement, and
Speaker 3: the ability to hear perspectives different from our own are
Speaker 3: all part of what makes that freedom meaningful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've said it before. I don't want everyone to
Speaker 1: be exactly like me, or think like me, or always
Speaker 1: agree with me, because, for one, that would be a
Speaker 1: boring world right with no like you said, lively debate
Speaker 1: or you know, a good conversation or you know, if
Speaker 1: you're in a position to kind of you know, explain
Speaker 1: your position and also defend it with you know, facts
Speaker 1: or you know, more than just your feelings. I enjoy
Speaker 1: all that stuff, and I think that's what really makes
Speaker 1: a good, colorful societ.
Speaker 3: Whether we're talking about true crime, history or current events.
Speaker 3: Our goal isn't to tell you what to think. It's
Speaker 3: to encourage curiosity, ask questions, and have honest conversations, even
Speaker 3: when they're uncomfortable. So with that being said, Dylan, let's
Speaker 3: get into our episode because today's figure very controversial. Much
Speaker 3: like us, Dylan, he's not everyone's cup of tea.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, yeah, yeah, one star. You know, I've been
Speaker 1: wanting to give us a one star review for a while.
Speaker 3: Now, I'm glad you should sit down and pen Yeah,
Speaker 3: you're very own.
Speaker 1: I'm going and I'm gonna get somebody to post it
Speaker 1: for me.
Speaker 3: Man, people get really upset when you have an opinion
Speaker 3: they don't like. Well, I'll never understand.
Speaker 1: I'll never understand it either. Honestly, I understand. You know,
Speaker 1: we've left a bad review of a place cause we
Speaker 1: felt like other people should know what they're walking into,
Speaker 1: you know, things like that, I understand, or just carrying
Speaker 1: on and on about something. It's like, just let it go.
Speaker 1: You know, you had a bad experience, just move on,
Speaker 1: don't go back there. But some people really get invested
Speaker 1: and get really fired up.
Speaker 3: Well, part of the problem, I think is these parasocial relationships.
Speaker 3: And not to discredit anyone out there or listeners or whatever,
Speaker 3: because you spend a lot of time listening to, for example,
Speaker 3: a podcast, you do develop sort of a relationship with
Speaker 3: these hosts, even though they don't know who you are.
Speaker 3: I mean, I do it myself. You know, they are
Speaker 3: podcasts I listen to where I feel like I know
Speaker 3: a lot about these people and in some way like
Speaker 3: almost like they're my friend, but they're not. I don't
Speaker 3: know them, but they seem cool and I'd hang out
Speaker 3: with them. And you develop these like parasocial relationships. So
Speaker 3: when they say something that you don't like, it really
Speaker 3: really really sends you over the top. How dare they?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And that's not exactly healthy to develop those kinds of relationships.
Speaker 3: And I just think we all need to take a
Speaker 3: step back, sometimes a little deep breath and just agreed
Speaker 3: to disagree. You don't always have to agree. And I
Speaker 3: think a lot of times people take one conversation and
Speaker 3: somehow it morphs into another conversation completely like off subject
Speaker 3: if that makes sense. Like if you're having a conversation
Speaker 3: about accountability and then the other person's having a conversation
Speaker 3: about race, well, those are two different conversations. I'm just
Speaker 3: gonna leave it at that.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, yes, and I could see the confusion arising
Speaker 1: from a situation.
Speaker 3: Like that, right, But my conversation will always be steered
Speaker 3: toward accountability. I don't care if you're green, red, purple, checkerboarded.
Speaker 1: What about them?
Speaker 3: I always want you to be accountable for your actions.
Speaker 3: That is always my number one.
Speaker 1: What about the Paisley people? So let's say, well, we
Speaker 1: have no representation in the y.
Speaker 3: I don't know about those people. Now, Larry Flint, that
Speaker 3: is who we are discussing today. Dylan Larry Flint was
Speaker 3: born on November first of nineteen forty two in Lakeville,
Speaker 3: can It was a very rural community in Magoffin County,
Speaker 3: the Appleagend region of the state, with a coal mining
Speaker 3: history and also part of the Big Sandy area. At
Speaker 3: the time, it was isolated, with only about five hundred residents.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's very that is tiny, right, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: abouts small as it gets.
Speaker 3: We joke, those are towns with like a stop light, well,
Speaker 3: I call it a wide spot in the road. Wide
Speaker 3: spot in the road exactly.
Speaker 1: And certainly not making fun of a community like that, because.
Speaker 3: We've lived in those communities ourselves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and uh, there's real there's pros and cons of everything,
Speaker 1: but there's some really good pros to living in a
Speaker 1: small community like that. And for one, it tends to
Speaker 1: be a high trust community.
Speaker 3: Here's that.
Speaker 1: And what's nice about a high trust community is everyone's
Speaker 1: for the most part. You always got the bad apples
Speaker 1: or the you know, the ship birds if you will.
Speaker 1: Every community has that. Even if it's fifty people or
Speaker 1: twenty people, one of them will be an asshole. But
Speaker 1: for the most part, everyone trusts everyone else. And in public,
Speaker 1: you know, they're just They say hi, they say bye,
Speaker 1: they greet each other, they hold doors. You can leave
Speaker 1: your car running in a store, you know, convenience store,
Speaker 1: parking lote and run in right quick.
Speaker 3: The kind of place if you leave your wallet at
Speaker 3: the counter, you come back, someone has turned it in,
Speaker 3: put it behind the counter to keep it safe for you.
Speaker 1: Wallet.
Speaker 3: We're just in a very small town much like this
Speaker 3: in the mountains, and it was so nice, that small
Speaker 3: town feel. There's not a lot of traffic. Everybody's super friendly, welcoming.
Speaker 3: You go to the small town dinner, you know, this
Speaker 3: is where all the locals eat, and everybody's just kind
Speaker 3: of hanging out. They don't have to lock their car doors.
Speaker 1: Right, and it's just nice, right, it is nice.
Speaker 3: Well, that's where Larry was living until he was about
Speaker 3: nine years old. There were no paved roads around, damn.
Speaker 3: In Larry's memoir, he describes a lack of adult supervision
Speaker 3: during his childhood. His upbringing was difficult. Larry was exposed
Speaker 3: to human sexuality at a young age. He claims that
Speaker 3: at the age of nine, he fornicated with a chicken.
Speaker 1: Damn.
Speaker 3: Larry was a chicken fucker, and he's very open about this.
Speaker 1: Damn. He's a self described chicken.
Speaker 3: Fucker, self proclaimed chicken fucker. Yes. So afterward he felt
Speaker 3: guilty and vowed he would never do that type of
Speaker 3: thing again.
Speaker 1: I just don't know how you even fuck a chicken, dude,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to.
Speaker 3: He described it as being part I'm sorry. He described
Speaker 3: it as part of being hillbilly and Look, I'm a
Speaker 3: hillbilly and never once have I been a chicken fucker.
Speaker 3: Just putting it out there.
Speaker 1: No, And I don't know any chicken fuckers either.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know anybody who's ever admitted to it.
Speaker 1: I don't even know how you would do it.
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I have seen it in Pink Flamingos,
Speaker 3: the John Waters film Look Classic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the nastiest people alive, filthiest people filthy. Sorry.
Speaker 3: Since the town was a quote dry town, alcohol was
Speaker 3: not sold in public, there was a lot of bootlegging
Speaker 3: going on. Larry claimed he grew up around a lot
Speaker 3: of alcoholics and that just about everyone was drinking. There
Speaker 3: wasn't much to do but drink. The town was so rural,
Speaker 3: only one extore, like one store existed, a general store,
Speaker 3: and if they didn't sell it, then you probably weren't
Speaker 3: going to get it.
Speaker 1: And so in a dry town and dry community, everyone
Speaker 1: drinks that, according to Larry, So that's are pretty ironic.
Speaker 3: Well that is how the bootlegging industry took off, right right.
Speaker 3: Larry was the first of three children. His father, Larry Senior,
Speaker 3: was a sharecropper and his mother, Edith, was a homemaker.
Speaker 3: Larry had two younger siblings, Judy and Jimmy. Larry Senior
Speaker 3: served in the US Army during World War Two. When
Speaker 3: Larry was born, his father was deployed overseas in the
Speaker 3: European theater. Larry spent the first few years of his
Speaker 3: life being raised by women, his mother, his grandmother, So
Speaker 3: he definitely develops I guess what you could consider like
Speaker 3: a special relationship with these women. Okay, And despite what
Speaker 3: you think about Larry and what he chooses to do
Speaker 3: in the future, he does seem to be fairly progressive
Speaker 3: when it comes to I guess thoughts about women being
Speaker 3: free and liberated. And also, you know, he's not afraid
Speaker 3: to put them in charge, right Like, once he's in business,
Speaker 3: if he finds someone who's business savvy and oh hey,
Speaker 3: they happen to be a woman, Larry puts his complete
Speaker 3: trust in this person.
Speaker 1: You know as well he should so. But I guess
Speaker 1: what you're you're saying that him being around females, so
Speaker 1: many women growing up during his formative years kind of
Speaker 1: left a mark on him.
Speaker 3: Well, that seems to be I think Larry acknowledges that
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 1: In a positive way.
Speaker 3: Right that he understands women and doesn't see like he
Speaker 3: doesn't have a problem with a strong woman. I guess
Speaker 3: that's where we're going with this, and you'll see that
Speaker 3: later in the story. Magoffin was the poorest county in
Speaker 3: the nation during the Great Depression. His family lived in poverty,
Speaker 3: as did most of their friends and neighbors. In nineteen
Speaker 3: fifty one, Larry's little sister, Judy, only four at the time,
Speaker 3: passed away after battling leukemia. The death put a great
Speaker 3: strain on the parent's marriage. They did divorce a year later,
Speaker 3: And I don't think that's uncommon anytime there is a
Speaker 3: devastating loss, the loss of a child. I think a
Speaker 3: lot of couples can't get over that, right, Like, I
Speaker 3: don't know, it's like they have a really hard time
Speaker 3: reconciling what's happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I could only imagine dealing with something
Speaker 1: like that. But it does seem to many times kind
Speaker 1: of tear the people apart for whatever reason, you know,
Speaker 1: is be it blame or just can't look at the
Speaker 1: other person without thinking about the child. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's probably just a really hard thing to
Speaker 1: go through.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're very blessed that we've never experienced that kind
Speaker 3: of loss. Larry relocated to Hamlet, Indiana, where he lived
Speaker 3: with his mother. Jimmy, the younger brother, stayed in Kentucky
Speaker 3: with their maternal grandmother. About two years later, Larry returned
Speaker 3: to Kentucky to live with his father because he did
Speaker 3: not like his mother's new boyfriend. So at this point,
Speaker 3: Larry is a preteen. He has no interest in school
Speaker 3: or education. Larry's main goal is to set out on
Speaker 3: his own and earn a living. He is all about
Speaker 3: the benjamins. He does not see any benefit learning reading, writing, and arithmetic.
Speaker 3: He's ready to start earning some cash.
Speaker 1: He wants to be real world.
Speaker 3: He wants the money to roll in now. At age fifteen,
Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty eight, Larry enlisted in the United States Army.
Speaker 3: Larry was able to convince his mother to sign a
Speaker 3: consent for him. Even though the Army wouldn't take persons
Speaker 3: under seventeen, they were able to lie on Larry's birth
Speaker 3: certificate in order to push forward with the enlistment.
Speaker 1: Damn.
Speaker 3: So Larry forges some papers, gets his mom on board
Speaker 3: to sign these because he's pretty persuasive guy and off
Speaker 3: he goes fifteen years old. Well, Larry had been running
Speaker 3: away at this point, so his mother was pleased that
Speaker 3: he wanted to join the army. She felt like it
Speaker 3: was a way to keep tabs on him and at
Speaker 3: least she would know he was safe. Watched over. Yeah,
Speaker 3: while serving, Larry, along with some of his platoon, visited
Speaker 3: a brothel. Now this will be Larry's first experience in
Speaker 3: a brothel. He described it as quote cedy a CD
Speaker 3: cheap motel where the bell hop would send a girl
Speaker 3: to your room. Okay, Now Larry was a virgin at
Speaker 3: this time. When the sex worker arrived in his room,
Speaker 3: to his room, young Larry was surprised because the woman
Speaker 3: was much older. She was in her forties. And of
Speaker 3: course Larry isn't honest about it being his first encounter.
Speaker 3: I mean, he did have sex with that chicken, but
Speaker 3: it was his first time being with a human, a female,
Speaker 3: a human female, we should say, damn.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you shouldn't have to make that distinction.
Speaker 3: Right, and you know it was awkward, but he said,
Speaker 3: you know, she she knew that he even though he
Speaker 3: was acting like I'm not a virgin, she knew he was.
Speaker 3: And so therefore, you know, I guess she was gentle
Speaker 3: with young Larry. He lost his virginity to this woman.
Speaker 3: And while in the army, Larry developed a passion for
Speaker 3: playing poker, So maybe not only visiting the brothels, he
Speaker 3: liked to play poker. About seven months after this rothel visit,
Speaker 3: Larry is discharged from the US Army. He rejoins his
Speaker 3: mother in Indiana and finds employment at the Inland Manufacturing Company,
Speaker 3: which is a GM affiliate. A union led shut down
Speaker 3: leaves him laid off after only a few months.
Speaker 1: Damn it.
Speaker 3: Larry returned to the hills of eastern Kentucky. He briefly
Speaker 3: worked as a bootlegger. Larry moved in with his alcoholic
Speaker 3: bootleg and daddy. He hooked up with an old high
Speaker 3: school buddy. That friend was tasked with getting alcohol from
Speaker 3: a neighboring county and bringing over to the Dry County
Speaker 3: where they lived, and then Larry would distribute, okay, this liquor,
Speaker 3: so you know he's turning a profit. He's doing all right.
Speaker 3: When Larry learned that the law was on his tail,
Speaker 3: like they knew what he was doing, and we're around
Speaker 3: was you know, they were gonna bust him. He decided,
Speaker 3: you know, being an outlaw wasn't the endgame. He was
Speaker 3: too pretty to go to prison like. He wasn't interested
Speaker 3: in all that. So you know, it's time to make
Speaker 3: it change.
Speaker 1: So as soon as that he got turned up just
Speaker 1: a little bit, he decided he didn't want the consequences
Speaker 1: of this criminal activity, right.
Speaker 3: He wants a different life. He joined the Navy in
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty one and became a radar operator. But by
Speaker 3: that time he was twenty two. Larry was twice divorced.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, you get everything fast.
Speaker 3: He was a twice divorced sailor. First, Larry married a
Speaker 3: woman named Mary. Larry was not cut out to be
Speaker 3: a husband at this time. He had a problem with monogamy,
Speaker 3: and we'll discuss that later on. While they're married but separated,
Speaker 3: Larry starts a relationship with a woman in Dayton, Ohio
Speaker 3: named Peggy while he's on leave. He's got sure leave
Speaker 3: and he sure leaves Peggy with a good time.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: So he returns to the Navy and comes back thirteen
Speaker 3: months later. Peggy is seven months pregnant, and Larry understands
Speaker 3: that the math doesn't add up. This child belongs to
Speaker 3: another man. But Larry decides, you know, he loves Peggy
Speaker 3: and he's going to marry her anyway, Okay, so he
Speaker 3: can deal with it. The second marriage was a flop.
Speaker 3: Like Larry, Peggy also had a taste for the strange.
Speaker 1: Well, obviously, the marriage.
Speaker 3: Is plagued by infidelity and Larry he talks about chasing
Speaker 3: away multiple sailors from his home.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's like, get out here. Quit screwing my wife, dude, Yeah,
Speaker 1: go offshore.
Speaker 3: Trying to sneak in windows coming up, Quit up on
Speaker 3: the porch.
Speaker 1: It's Peggy home. Quit deploying on my wife. Cut it out.
Speaker 1: Stop no more seamen in this house. Damn it.
Speaker 3: You're getting a counseling.
Speaker 2: Shit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm gonna write it up the chain.
Speaker 1: I want you to stop having sex with everybody but me.
Speaker 3: Peggy became pregnant again. Their daughter, Tanya, was born in
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty five. Tanya is Larry's first biological child. Larry's
Speaker 3: mother eat It opened a bar around this time called
Speaker 3: the Kiwi Bar.
Speaker 1: Oh being the I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: The being around the Kiwi kind of changed Larry's life forever.
Speaker 3: He'd been working these factory jobs since being discharged from
Speaker 3: the Navy, and you know, he kind of likes this
Speaker 3: bar life that his mom's got going on. So he
Speaker 3: saves eighteen hundred dollars and in early nineteen sixty five,
Speaker 3: he places a down payment on his mother's business and
Speaker 3: eventually Larry will pay six thousand dollars for this bar
Speaker 3: while keeping his other job kind of on payroll during
Speaker 3: the transition. So he's kind of doing other things, but
Speaker 3: he's also trying to.
Speaker 1: Work this bar. Okay, so we got a bar.
Speaker 3: Larry renovates the business and names it Larry's Hillbilly Haven.
Speaker 1: See, you know, people's like, well, you know, you should
Speaker 1: just do like your grandpa did and start a small
Speaker 1: business with six thousand dollars. You know, well you could.
Speaker 3: Start a couple of small businesses with six grand perhaps.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, you can't buy I'm just saying the relative
Speaker 1: even though I say six thousand dollars, that was a
Speaker 1: lot of money back then.
Speaker 3: Well it was a lot of money back then.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, But I mean nowadays, that same bar, you know,
Speaker 1: probably half a million dollars, you know, five hundred, seven
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty thousand, dollars.
Speaker 3: Well, can we just say I really would love to
Speaker 3: patronize Larry's hill Billy Haven.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds awesome, sounds awesome.
Speaker 3: I feel like I could wear my milleral white hat there.
Speaker 3: Let's sit right in.
Speaker 1: Pood be like Nash and niche hat.
Speaker 3: He leanked into his Appalachian roots and created a place
Speaker 3: for the blue collar workers of Kentucky, Tennessee, and West Virginia.
Speaker 3: Larry's Bar offered country music, horseshoes, and an unpretentious place
Speaker 3: to grab a cold beer.
Speaker 1: And that's what a good beer joint is. A beer joint, baby, right,
Speaker 1: that's where you you know, the beer's cold. You know,
Speaker 1: there may be some women, it's usually mostly men. You know,
Speaker 1: the shooting pool and such a little gambling on the
Speaker 1: side or whatever. Well, it's just a good place to
Speaker 1: go hang out with buds and have a few beers.
Speaker 1: You know. The bra Patch nothing special.
Speaker 3: When I was grown up, that place was the bra patch.
Speaker 1: Yeah, every town, every small community town, even in cities,
Speaker 1: you have these in neighborhoods. You know that old spot
Speaker 1: where everybody's yeah always went their dad went there. You
Speaker 1: know that kind of thing, and it's nothing. It's not fancy,
Speaker 1: and it's just is what it is. You know, no frills,
Speaker 1: no frills, no beer joint. You're gonna get, you know,
Speaker 1: three or four beer choices, you know, not be on tap,
Speaker 1: probably gonna be in a bottle. But yeah, you gotta
Speaker 1: love it.
Speaker 3: Larry's dream became a reality. He'll Billy Haven was bringing
Speaker 3: in about one thousand dollars a week in the late
Speaker 3: nineteen sixties, which by all accounts is a success. Larry
Speaker 3: was a workaholic. He would spend sixty to eighty hours
Speaker 3: a week at his business. He began using amphetamines to
Speaker 3: stay awake and was working these like twenty hour days.
Speaker 3: And that's the thing about Larry Dylan is he's no slacker.
Speaker 3: Like Larry does not mind hard work and he will
Speaker 3: put in the effort to like make shit happen, which
Speaker 3: I admire in anybody.
Speaker 1: Well, you have that kind of drive. And you see
Speaker 1: people that have a drive like that and they just
Speaker 1: keep on and on and then they end up being
Speaker 1: very successful. And I think that really is a testament
Speaker 1: to what people call the American dream.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have a real, like, I guess respect for
Speaker 3: people who have that fire in their belly. And work
Speaker 3: hard and make shit happen, and don't give up and
Speaker 3: aren't afraid to go out and try to be successful
Speaker 3: and make things happen. Sometimes I wish I was a
Speaker 3: bit more motivated.
Speaker 1: No, I agree. And this is what you'll see with
Speaker 1: immigrants will come, you know, come to a country like America,
Speaker 1: and they have this drive, this passion for a better
Speaker 1: life and you know, being able to take care of
Speaker 1: their families, and they just work their ass off. You know,
Speaker 1: they get a business and they're willing to work at themselves,
Speaker 1: and you know, they don't go out to eat. They
Speaker 1: cut out tramat, cut all the corners and just keep
Speaker 1: putting everything back into the business and then you know,
Speaker 1: eventually least very successful American dream baby. And I find
Speaker 1: that admirable when when people do like that, and I
Speaker 1: think it's a really great accomplishment.
Speaker 3: Absolutely so. Larry's Hillbilly Haven was a rough place that
Speaker 3: drew many macho men who wanted to fight. You know
Speaker 3: what I say, bring back toxic masculinity. Okay, I miss
Speaker 3: I miss it. I like I like a rough and tumble,
Speaker 3: big old men. I don't even care if they're a
Speaker 3: little sexist to me. Sometimes.
Speaker 1: Well, what they did is they start they just labeled
Speaker 1: anything masculine toxic, yes, right, which is not really, it's
Speaker 1: not really.
Speaker 3: There has to be a balance between femininity and masculinity,
Speaker 3: and I don't necessarily think masculinity is a negative.
Speaker 1: No, you need both of them and they both work
Speaker 1: off of each other. Right.
Speaker 3: Multiple times a week Larry would break up fights. At times,
Speaker 3: Larry pulled a gun on patrons to the few situations.
Speaker 3: And of course Larry ended up involved in some of
Speaker 3: these fights, getting punched a bunch of times, and that's
Speaker 3: got to get old. Larry felt like, you know, I
Speaker 3: don't know if this is for me. I don't want
Speaker 3: to get punched in my nose every couple of weeks
Speaker 3: breaking up a fight.
Speaker 1: No, And you never know how violent these types of
Speaker 1: situations can get.
Speaker 3: They can get out of hand. He purchased additional bars,
Speaker 3: including Larry's Hangover Tavern you gotta love these names, and
Speaker 3: the Factory, and he kind of gradually built a nightlife
Speaker 3: empire in Dayton, Ohio. Larry described a secret to his
Speaker 3: bar's success his quote, good drinks, loud music, and some
Speaker 3: nice girls to look at.
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't think Larry came up with that formula.
Speaker 3: No, but I mean, you know that's what I'm looking
Speaker 3: for when I go out to the bar, right. You know,
Speaker 3: when I was younger, I would see older people at
Speaker 3: the bar and be like, oh, that's kind of sad,
Speaker 3: and I don't want to be that person. But you
Speaker 3: know what I like going out. I like going to
Speaker 3: the bar. And if I'm that old person sitting at
Speaker 3: the bar having to drink, oh well, I'm just I'm
Speaker 3: here for it because I enjoy I like the nightlife.
Speaker 3: I like to boogie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we go out, we have a good time, right,
Speaker 1: we have enjoy it. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I don't feel like we're too old to be out
Speaker 3: and about having a good time.
Speaker 1: No, we just go hang around other old people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody goes home at eleven thirty.
Speaker 3: Look, I want you to put some whaling on the
Speaker 3: jukebox and trat and bring me a fruity gurly drink
Speaker 3: at a dive bar, a.
Speaker 1: Very cheaply priced drink.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, and we'll have a sing along.
Speaker 1: I don't know, some of these places are out of control.
Speaker 1: You know, we've tried quite a few places in the
Speaker 1: last couple of years around and various states.
Speaker 3: And city life.
Speaker 1: Some of these places are just I get overhead and
Speaker 1: you know, you got to make turn a buck, you know,
Speaker 1: I get it. But some of these prices on drinks
Speaker 1: and stuff are just they're insane.
Speaker 3: Well, I think people can't afford to go out nowadays.
Speaker 3: I mean that's a lot of why you don't see
Speaker 3: young people out and about. I mean, we grew up
Speaker 3: in the nineties and early two thousands and we went out.
Speaker 3: You know, there was a night life. Young people like
Speaker 3: to go out. They we clubbed, we went out and
Speaker 3: hung out. But it's because we we could afford to
Speaker 3: do so. You know, you could take twenty bucks in
Speaker 3: two thousand and one and go out on the town
Speaker 3: for the evening and that was plenty and plenty of
Speaker 3: money to get you where you to get your right Dylan,
Speaker 3: as they say, right, Well yeah, and.
Speaker 1: Some of these places just seem very heavily staffed. To me,
Speaker 1: that's how they got freaking you know, fifty workers at
Speaker 1: You're so like, what do you what's going on? And
Speaker 1: then I guess I know why you're charging me eighteen
Speaker 1: dollars for this mixed drink? Yeah, I mean, what do
Speaker 1: we do anyway back to the story, right.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's not even like you're getting some mixologists
Speaker 3: who's you know, curated this this twig of rosemary for
Speaker 3: your ice from you know, well and that's the thing
Speaker 3: the Hungarian mountaintop or something.
Speaker 1: Oh, they didn't even know what goes into and it
Speaker 1: goes in the you know, tequila sunrise. It's not dumb
Speaker 1: care anyway back to it.
Speaker 3: When Larry opened the new club, he took out a
Speaker 3: bank note for renovations. He paid the loan off sooner
Speaker 3: than expected, which kind of annoyed the bank.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, they want that interest, right.
Speaker 3: And so I guess maybe they were being some type
Speaker 3: of way to Larry, because he's hilarious by the way,
Speaker 3: and he's very petty, and I love these qualities about him. Okay,
Speaker 3: so he trolls the bank. Larry bought twenty wheelbarrows with
Speaker 3: enough pennies to pay off the loan. He rolled the
Speaker 3: wheelbarrows into the bank scantily. Clyde dancers helped Larry bring
Speaker 3: this parade of coins into the bank, causing quite a spectacle.
Speaker 1: I've heard tell of people doing things like this.
Speaker 3: Right, So Larry wanted to offer more to patrons, and
Speaker 3: after hearing about go go clubs out west, Larry decided
Speaker 3: to open the first hustler club in Dayton, Ohio. That
Speaker 3: club featured topless dancers. It was also like a new
Speaker 3: kind of higher end type of bar. He was hoping
Speaker 3: to draw a different type of crowded then perhaps the
Speaker 3: hill billy haven. Right, so he's thinking businessmen traveling, pocket
Speaker 3: full of money, expense accounts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's yeah, it's a different, different class of clientele,
Speaker 1: and I guess his hope is to kind of get
Speaker 1: rid of some of the rough and tumble.
Speaker 3: Well, as you can imagine, this publicity stunt definitely garnered
Speaker 3: media attention, which was really good for this new club
Speaker 3: he opened. During the penny stunt, people gathered to watch
Speaker 3: and take photographs. It was a big deal and lots
Speaker 3: of people in town thought it was funny nice. They
Speaker 3: didn't mind seeing, you know, women in sexy neglar jes
Speaker 3: rolling in Wilbarrow's full of pennies to the bank.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: Larry set his club apart by training the female employees
Speaker 3: to focus their attention on the guy who was quote
Speaker 3: a little older, fatter, balder, or maybe smelled. The guy
Speaker 3: who wasn't getting attention or would otherwise be ignored by
Speaker 3: beautiful women in public. Larry knew that these guys who
Speaker 3: would be, you know, patronizing the club had money. Again,
Speaker 3: they often have these expense accounts through work. So Larry
Speaker 3: instructed his female employees to always be pleasant and optimistic,
Speaker 3: never complain or like be negative in any way, and
Speaker 3: to try and give these guys a little extra attention
Speaker 3: that they otherwise would not receive.
Speaker 1: Okay, now did this work? Well?
Speaker 3: Of course it worked. Dylan. Let me escort you to
Speaker 3: the ATM.
Speaker 1: Sir, Wait, that's what you've been doing to me.
Speaker 3: You're the most special man in the world. I don't
Speaker 3: smell and me your patrick.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right.
Speaker 3: It works out.
Speaker 1: It does work out.
Speaker 3: I'm more responsible with money most of the time.
Speaker 1: You are, and then I can just get money back
Speaker 1: from you.
Speaker 3: Give you an allowance. It's okay. Larry knew that many
Speaker 3: of his clients were married men who were looking for
Speaker 3: something different, just to escape, if you will, from married life.
Speaker 3: So he told the women his employees dress up, look beautiful,
Speaker 3: you know, just look your best and don't nagmen because
Speaker 3: they get plenty of that at home.
Speaker 1: So basically be fake.
Speaker 3: Let me escort you to the ATM. You are my
Speaker 3: new favorite person. Please come back and see me anytime.
Speaker 1: See I think this.
Speaker 3: You want a conversation that's gonna start at sixty five
Speaker 3: dollars and up, and it's just their job.
Speaker 1: I get it, and it works. You know, a lot
Speaker 1: of guys are into that. But like the fakeness at
Speaker 1: strip club because I know you're not into me, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, I know it, and I think
Speaker 1: that's what would always kind of turn me off if
Speaker 1: I am of the whole thing is just yeah, I
Speaker 1: know it's all bullshit.
Speaker 3: I'm in love with stripper. Between nineteen sixty eight and
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one, Larry open Hustler clubs throughout Ohio. In
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one, Larry met Althea Lzure.
Speaker 1: Oh sure, Althea leisure Lazure.
Speaker 3: I like it, Lizure.
Speaker 1: She sounds fancy. Well.
Speaker 3: She was a woman who had become a very important
Speaker 3: part of his life. She was dancing at his bar,
Speaker 3: and Larry thought she looked a little too young. Turns
Speaker 3: out Althea had borrowed a play from Larry's book. Her
Speaker 3: mother had quote signed a form so she could work
Speaker 3: at the club. So she forged her own fake paperwork
Speaker 3: to get a job dancing at Larry's club.
Speaker 1: And she is indeed too young to be dancing in
Speaker 1: the club.
Speaker 3: Larry called her into his office with plans to fire Althea.
Speaker 3: She explained to Larry that she was nineteen and handed
Speaker 3: him an id. Larry could easily see it was a fake.
Speaker 3: He asked how old she really was. At first, Althea
Speaker 3: said eighteen, then she finally admitted she was only seventeen
Speaker 3: years old. Larry was unsure about keeping Althea on staff,
Speaker 3: but she told him her life story and the pair
Speaker 3: ended up getting to know he each other like really
Speaker 3: well and like Larry, Althea had a very troubled childhood,
Speaker 3: so it's like, I guess, Larry in some ways kind
Speaker 3: of well, he felt like she was a kindred spirit, right,
Speaker 3: but he also took pity on her because he knew
Speaker 3: what it's like to come from nothing, so he felt like, well,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe I.
Speaker 1: Should not fire her, right, he took pity on her.
Speaker 3: Let's talk a little bit about Althea because, like I say,
Speaker 3: she's a pretty important part of Larry's life, and she'll
Speaker 3: be an important part of this story.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 3: Althea was born in Marietta, Ohio, in nineteen fifty three.
Speaker 3: At nine years old, Althea's father killed her mother, her
Speaker 3: mother's friend, and her grandmother and then himself.
Speaker 1: Damn so murdered, you know, triple triple murderer suicide.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Althea lost every adult in her life. Her entire
Speaker 3: world is just taken out.
Speaker 1: Damn. That's terrible.
Speaker 3: It's very sad. So Althea was sent to a religious
Speaker 3: based orphanage run by nuns. She alleged that these various
Speaker 3: homes were rampant with sexual abuse, and that she was
Speaker 3: sexually abused and molested by the nuns.
Speaker 1: So she has this devastating thing happened in her life,
Speaker 1: just turns her whole world upside down. And all she
Speaker 1: needs is someone to you know, protect her, help her along.
Speaker 1: And she gets exposed to something like that. And there's
Speaker 1: so many people's stories is this very thing, and it's
Speaker 1: what's so terrible about uh, I mean, gosh, foster, the
Speaker 1: foster system, all that state homes. It's just I don't
Speaker 1: think there's ever been any of those places I've heard
Speaker 1: about where they said no, every kid was here, was
Speaker 1: taken care of and nobody was abused.
Speaker 3: Well, predators will always be attracted.
Speaker 1: To the vulnerable, right of course, and.
Speaker 3: Sadly that is just I guess, the way the world works.
Speaker 3: But we really do need to do a better job
Speaker 3: of protecting innocent children, the elderly. You know, we just
Speaker 3: you know, I feel like we don't. We don't take
Speaker 3: care of our most vulnerable in society.
Speaker 1: You know, you reckond They could figure out some kind
Speaker 1: of a test to like along the lines of a
Speaker 1: lie detector, but just to be able to tell if
Speaker 1: you're attracted to freaking young people or something.
Speaker 3: Yeah, or maybe just have some accountability in these positions
Speaker 3: instead of just like moving these religious leaders from church
Speaker 3: to church to hide them.
Speaker 1: Don't get me.
Speaker 3: I' always about accountability, and I think that's a lot
Speaker 3: of what's missing in these situations.
Speaker 1: Here's an idea death sentence the first time you blest
Speaker 1: a kid, Well, there's that, and like that happens in
Speaker 1: six months from then. That might slow people down anyway.
Speaker 3: Althea moved to Florida to stay with an aunt. She
Speaker 3: was finally free from the nuns, but after a while
Speaker 3: she was sent to another abusive group home. She ended
Speaker 3: up like running away and living with a boyfriend for
Speaker 3: a while. At sixteen, she was taken into juvenile hall
Speaker 3: for running away, but she just felt like she didn't
Speaker 3: have any other options and at least like shacking up
Speaker 3: with some guy made her feel a little safer than
Speaker 3: being in these homes where she's repeatedly abused. Right, Althea
Speaker 3: was dabbling in drugs and making poor choices. After being
Speaker 3: released from juvie, Althea lived with a sister for a bit.
Speaker 3: After a series of unstable and failled homes, Althea was
Speaker 3: able to become an emancipated miner. She got a place
Speaker 3: to live, but had to take care of herself, so
Speaker 3: she needs work. That's why she came to Larry's club
Speaker 3: in order to make ends meet. She knew she would
Speaker 3: not be able to make that kind of money that
Speaker 3: fast to sustain herself, like doing anything else. Right, and
Speaker 3: she's young and she doesn't have the education, she doesn't
Speaker 3: have any work skills. Larry allows her to stay and
Speaker 3: he grows to trust Althea. She was whip smart and savvy,
Speaker 3: and Mary put her in charge of the other girls
Speaker 3: at the Columbus club. So she eventually becomes kind of
Speaker 3: like the manager the din mother, if you will, at
Speaker 3: this club. Yeah, she's like managing the females and making
Speaker 3: sure all the women have what they need, the dressing
Speaker 3: rooms are clean, you know that kind of thing. Althea
Speaker 3: impressed him, and after seeing how excellent a manager she was,
Speaker 3: Larry promoted her to be like head din Mother, so
Speaker 3: she would oversee all the girls across all the clubs
Speaker 3: he owned. And I say girls women, you know, well, yeah,
Speaker 3: all the ladies. Althea, it turned out, had a knack
Speaker 3: for business and great instincts. She was also like just
Speaker 3: this really cool chick. She was fun to be around,
Speaker 3: clever as hell. I mean she's the type of woman that,
Speaker 3: like you just want to be friends with, Like men, women,
Speaker 3: everybody is just like attracted to her because she's got
Speaker 3: this magnetic personality and she's so like cool.
Speaker 1: She sounds awesome.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, I mean he does sound awesome.
Speaker 1: So it didn't take long.
Speaker 3: For Larry to fall head over heels in love with her.
Speaker 3: So Althea's got Larry wrapped around her little finger. Larry
Speaker 3: had never met a woman like her before, and he
Speaker 3: was just enchanted. They had become best friends and business partners.
Speaker 3: Larry wanted more. He told Althea that she was the
Speaker 3: love of his life. But Larry also said, I cannot
Speaker 3: be sexually exclusive with you, like I have this monogamy problem.
Speaker 3: I'm absolutely in love with you, like you're my soulmate.
Speaker 3: I want to be with you for the rest of
Speaker 3: my life. But I want you to know I'm a cheater.
Speaker 1: What do you think he was a secthatic?
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe, I mean, I don't know, but you know,
Speaker 3: Althea was like, okay. She accepted this, and the pair
Speaker 3: went on to have a real relationship. And part of
Speaker 3: this was because Althea was openly bisexual. She made no
Speaker 3: bones about her desire to sleep with women. Larry wasn't
Speaker 3: into monogamy, and neither was Althea. They had really found
Speaker 3: their perfect match with each other. Althinka didn't sleep with
Speaker 3: other men, so she would only sleep with women, and
Speaker 3: Larry was allowed to sleep with women too, And they're
Speaker 3: both involved in this lifestyle and it works for them
Speaker 3: and they're really in love. So I mean, Larry's like,
Speaker 3: you know, this is a beautiful relationship we have and
Speaker 3: it may look strange from the outside and people don't
Speaker 3: understand it, but like, this works for us, we're in
Speaker 3: this together.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, in that relationship like that, everybody wants to judge,
Speaker 1: and well I'd never then that's fine. Well it's not
Speaker 1: for everybody, it's not for you, but and I think
Speaker 1: it only works if you're upfront and honest in the
Speaker 1: very beginning, and that everybody kind of sticks to whatever
Speaker 1: rules you put into place. But hey, if it works
Speaker 1: for them, who am I to judge? Right?
Speaker 3: Exactly, live your life. By nineteen seventy two, Larry's clubs
Speaker 3: were offering membership accounts. Larry created a newsletter that was
Speaker 3: mailed to members. Initially Dylan. It was like a black
Speaker 3: and white UH newsletters, about four pages. It featured short
Speaker 3: articles photos of the dancers. The Hustler newsletter became very popular.
Speaker 3: People who weren't members sought out the newsletter and people
Speaker 3: were starting to ask can I subscribe?
Speaker 1: So it just started as a newsletter as a newsletter.
Speaker 3: With the newsletter soaring in popularity and demand, Larry moved
Speaker 3: to make the publication twenty four pages with colored images.
Speaker 3: Larry shortened the name to just Hustler and honestly, I
Speaker 3: think it's a great name.
Speaker 1: You think it's a great name.
Speaker 3: I think it's a great name. Yeah, for a adult magazine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great better than Jugs, right, big Booties.
Speaker 3: After a while, Larry wanted to build Hustler into a
Speaker 3: national men's magazine like Playboy.
Speaker 1: I think Jugs is a great name too.
Speaker 3: My personal favorite is balls Balls.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is that really one?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Oh wow, some saggy balls. It's just I love when.
Speaker 3: They do the middle aged man edition.
Speaker 1: Is that real in their forties? That's not real. That's
Speaker 1: not a show, that's not a book. That's not a
Speaker 1: magazine either. You're making it up.
Speaker 3: I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: Balls, Balls, it's a beautiful.
Speaker 3: Thing, Dylan, it's not. Men's magazines have existed for well
Speaker 3: over a century, but the modern quote lifestyle magazine for
Speaker 3: men didn't really take shape until the nineteen fifties. These
Speaker 3: publications combined articles on like politics, literature, fashion, humor, interviews,
Speaker 3: and culture, featuring you know, photography of attractive women throughout,
Speaker 3: you know, pepper throughout the magazine.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, it's funny because some of these
Speaker 1: magazines were renowned for their articles. I know, they really
Speaker 1: were it was a big deal.
Speaker 3: Well, I know we're going to talk about that. So
Speaker 3: Playboy was founded by Hugh Hefner in Chicago. It debuted
Speaker 3: in December of nineteen fifty three with an iconic cover
Speaker 3: featuring Marilyn Monroe. Playboy became just as famous for its articles, Dylan.
Speaker 3: They would get popular writers, journalists, celebrities to write pieces.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'd be big, big time review.
Speaker 3: I mean Playboy. You know, they interviewed Jimmy Carter. You
Speaker 3: would get all kinds of information.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they would in these articles, drop these big articles
Speaker 1: that would have people talking, you know, on various topics.
Speaker 3: Another popular magazine competing with Playboy in the nineteen fifties
Speaker 3: was Cavalier. It attracted many well known writers who became
Speaker 3: popular in the night eighteen sixties. So a lot of
Speaker 3: these writers got their start Cavalier magazine.
Speaker 1: I've never heard of this one, or perhaps.
Speaker 3: Playboy, and then they, you know, would move on to
Speaker 3: becoming published authors fiction that type of thing. Flint's publishing
Speaker 3: prospects were not good. After being passed around among several
Speaker 3: media like businessmen, he was introduced to a guy named
Speaker 3: Ron Fenton. Fenton published a magazine called Gallery, which was
Speaker 3: known as the Quote working Man's Esquire. Oh Fenton offered
Speaker 3: Larry a ten percent stake in Gallery Magazine in exchange
Speaker 3: for a fifty thousand dollars loan. Larry became co publisher
Speaker 3: of Gallery, but unfortunately, Gallery Magazine's finances were not great.
Speaker 3: It was shut down just a few months later, and
Speaker 3: by then Larry was in debt. However, Ron Finton saw
Speaker 3: a lucrative opportunity with Larry. They decided to start a
Speaker 3: new magazine. Larry purchased Playboys to see what these other
Speaker 3: men's matter magazines were doing. While coming through the pages,
Speaker 3: Larry saw these beautiful, like airbrushed women. And of course
Speaker 3: Larry likes TNA right, we all do, don't we. But
Speaker 3: he was like, you know, he needed a little something more.
Speaker 3: He was like, where's the badge?
Speaker 1: Well, he needed what he was looking for as a
Speaker 1: way to make his magazine stand out, I think, and
Speaker 1: he noticed, along with everyone else, I'm sure that Playboy
Speaker 1: was very artful. And how would you describe it?
Speaker 4: Clean, tasteful moods, tasteful moods, very highly polished, like you said,
Speaker 4: curated y yes, and well.
Speaker 3: These women look very much like fashion models. They're dressed,
Speaker 3: you know, loosely using the term dressed, but you know
Speaker 3: they might be dressed in you know, like an expensive
Speaker 3: pearl necklace and some sexy garter belts or something. Lighting
Speaker 3: and yeah, and they you know, very soft lighting and
Speaker 3: they look like a model. And Larry was like, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's great and all, but I see your bush, but
Speaker 3: I want to see, like what's under the bush. He
Speaker 3: wants to see under the hood. Larry is a man
Speaker 3: who needs to see some labia. He also felt that
Speaker 3: Playboy in Penthouse catered to a certain demographic of men,
Speaker 3: kind of upper crust and pretentious, and Larry, a man
Speaker 3: of the people, wanted something geared toward the working man,
Speaker 3: a magazine that blue collar guys would find interesting. Larry's
Speaker 3: gonna stay true to his roots, and you know, I
Speaker 3: love that about him. The working man needs a little
Speaker 3: something too, Dylan, and Larry thinks the working man needs
Speaker 3: to see some spread eagle shots in.
Speaker 1: Big, full color, honestly, you know.
Speaker 3: In centerfold, taking up the whole page.
Speaker 1: I was very shocked, almost shocked by the differences, you know,
Speaker 1: as a as a very young man being exposed to
Speaker 1: these magazines. Playboy was great. But then you see something
Speaker 1: like Hustler and you're just like, oh my god. Like
Speaker 1: I mean, they're certainly different styles, for sure.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I've ever seen a Hustler magazine.
Speaker 3: Maybe I don't know if I've ever actually seen a Hustler.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you see the way I'm sitting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh, you give me an eyeful every day.
Speaker 1: Take a picture of that. Imagine that with no shorts on.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I keep telling you to do an OnlyFans,
Speaker 3: but and do.
Speaker 1: A up close shot.
Speaker 3: Perfect for Balls magazine.
Speaker 1: It is. They're pushed forward right now.
Speaker 3: Just stop. No one cares. Doe.
Speaker 1: You're the one that keeps bringing up Balls magazine.
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to get a little something for the
Speaker 3: ladies and the gentleman now. The first this s issue
Speaker 3: of Hustler magazine dropped in July nineteen seventy four. Hustler
Speaker 3: was intentionally more provocative and blue collar if you will,
Speaker 3: Flint wanted to shock readers. The magazine featured explicit nude photography, satire, cartoons,
Speaker 3: opinion pieces, and advertisements. Claim sorry, advertisements aimed at working classmen.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure what that means. What kind of advertisements
Speaker 3: would be aimed at them. Maybe not Brooks Brothers.
Speaker 1: Hey, you want some shocks that don't fall down?
Speaker 3: How about some Walt tools in this magazine.
Speaker 1: We'll come down to the stand up sock store and
Speaker 1: get you a pair today. These stocks will never fall down,
Speaker 1: all right, the stand up sock store.
Speaker 3: No Brooks Brothers. Wow, yeah, Brooks who Larry employed OUTTHEA
Speaker 3: as the executive editor. She oversaw the content and she
Speaker 3: would approve the work before it got to Larry, who
Speaker 3: had final say. ALTHEA knew what Larry liked, but she
Speaker 3: also brought a woman's perspective, which he liked. That right,
Speaker 3: So even though like he wants it to be very explicit,
Speaker 3: ALTHEA is helping steer him toward Yeah, you can have that,
Speaker 3: but still have the women be tasteful.
Speaker 1: Somebody be sexy.
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be trashy. They can still be beautiful.
Speaker 1: And right without being grossed.
Speaker 3: Right. I guess that's what you could say. Larry is progressive,
Speaker 3: Like I said, at a time when women were still underestimated.
Speaker 3: I mean, he's got al THEA like running this magazine,
Speaker 3: which was unheard of, Like most of these men's magazines
Speaker 3: did not have a female on staff right right. The
Speaker 3: November nineteen seventy four issue featured a model spread eagle,
Speaker 3: revealing something more than other magazines were offering at the time.
Speaker 3: From then on, Larry wanted photos that were more explicit.
Speaker 3: The magazine sold one hundred and sixty thousand copies, which
Speaker 3: was respectable but no a spectacular debut. The early issues
Speaker 3: did not make Hustler and overnight success. The February nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy five issue was controversial and retailers refused to carry
Speaker 3: it because it was very explicit, and they were like, yeah,
Speaker 3: we can't sell this center our stores. Larry is struggling
Speaker 3: to hang on. He's failed to pay his taxes, trying
Speaker 3: to keep this magazine going. He's like putting all of
Speaker 3: his money into this magazine, and though he's making money
Speaker 3: from the clubs and whatnot, it's just going right out
Speaker 3: the door to keep the lights on and to keep
Speaker 3: this thing running.
Speaker 1: Well, it makes you wonder why he even went on
Speaker 1: this venture in the first place, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's had this string of clubs, sounds very successful,
Speaker 1: making plenty of money, and now he's pouring everything he
Speaker 1: has into this magazine.
Speaker 3: He had a vision. Dylan, Okay, he knew what the
Speaker 3: working man wanted.
Speaker 1: I tried to throw something on the floor.
Speaker 3: A workingman won't beaver shots, dyling.
Speaker 1: Make or picture them up off floor. But what she
Speaker 1: don't knows? You got camera, take a picture.
Speaker 3: Yeah, get a picture of that, butthole.
Speaker 1: I won't see that butthole.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, it's now.
Speaker 1: Maker pick it up, Larry making maker pick it up.
Speaker 3: You're gross, Larry, Now stop doing that voice to take
Speaker 3: a picture. You're making me sick. My camera stop, You're fired.
Speaker 3: The magazine's breakthrough came in August of nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 3: when Flint purchased and published unauthorized nude paparazzi photos of
Speaker 3: none other than Jackie Kennedy O Nassas Damn. The issue
Speaker 3: sold around one million copies and propelled the magazine into
Speaker 3: a major national publication. By now, Larry is a millionaire.
Speaker 3: He's managed to pay off those taxes, Dylan, It sold out.
Speaker 3: The Governor of Ohio was even seen buying a copy
Speaker 3: of the Jackie O edition, which you know is candalist.
Speaker 1: At the time, everybody's trying to see her.
Speaker 3: Everybody wants to see the first lady in the buff.
Speaker 3: You know, some other folks out there thought it was
Speaker 3: really tasteless, like how could you do that to our
Speaker 3: first lady. But Larry's like, you know, she wants to
Speaker 3: be naked on the French riviera. We're gonna publish it.
Speaker 3: We all want to see her naked.
Speaker 1: Oh that's where she was.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it was like vacation photos.
Speaker 1: It was like a nude beach or something. Okay, it
Speaker 1: wasn't like Taylor photo lends into her residence or anything.
Speaker 3: No, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: One thing about Hustler was that Larry wanted real women,
Speaker 3: not necessarily models, for the magazine. While Playboy offered a
Speaker 3: very glam version of the Girl next Door, Larry truly
Speaker 3: wanted the girl next door in his magazine. He said, quote,
Speaker 3: I wanted to offend everyone on an equal opportunity basis,
Speaker 3: but he really does kind of like the like the
Speaker 3: girl next door. Look, he does. You know, they don't
Speaker 3: necessarily have to have cosmetic surgery, they don't have to
Speaker 3: have breast implants, they don't have to be airbrushed. He
Speaker 3: likes real natural women, you know, if they've got a
Speaker 3: little bit of a stretch mark. He doesn't care well, and.
Speaker 1: Men don't care like that about things like that. Well,
Speaker 1: that's what I hear, and it is true. What are
Speaker 1: you talking about?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 1: I like a woman with a little bit of meat
Speaker 1: own her, maybe a stretch mark or two. Okay, we
Speaker 1: can our stretch marks together.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I like them.
Speaker 1: I lick stretch marks and scars. I don't care.
Speaker 3: You need to stop. This is a very explicit episode
Speaker 3: with Horny over there.
Speaker 1: I've turned myself in.
Speaker 3: Well that's not hard to do. I think the sound
Speaker 3: of your own voice turns you on. With the magazine
Speaker 3: selling in like high volume, Larry needs to find a press.
Speaker 3: The Dayton Press Incorporated agreed to print Hustler magazine. The
Speaker 3: Baptist Church in Dayton, Ohio was unhappy with this decision.
Speaker 3: Reverend Griffin of Dayton called the magazine quote pornographic in
Speaker 3: blewed the Great Dayton Association of Southern Baptists and an
Speaker 3: angry letter to the press. However, the Dayton Press was
Speaker 3: making a lot of money from Hustler. They wanted that
Speaker 3: money to keep rolling in. At the time, Hustler was
Speaker 3: the fastest growing magazine in the country, so they're like, well,
Speaker 3: you know, we get you're not happy, Preacher Griffin, but
Speaker 3: we're gonna we're gonna keep on making money.
Speaker 1: Well, And you see this a lot, especially when it
Speaker 1: comes to people's something they feel is morally wrong. Exactly,
Speaker 1: they just assume that everyone else should have those same
Speaker 1: morals that they do. And yeah, I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: you can't really blame the Dayton Press. It's a lucrative
Speaker 1: business relationship for them. And as long as it's you know,
Speaker 1: meeting the letter of the law, I guess of what
Speaker 1: can be published, then who are they to say anything
Speaker 1: about it?
Speaker 3: Larry and Althea moved into an affluent neighborhood in Columbus, Ohio.
Speaker 3: Larry's home featured six bedrooms, a library, a projection room,
Speaker 3: a wine cellar, two basement recreation rooms, a huge party
Speaker 3: room with a waterfall and a koy pond. Larry renovated
Speaker 3: the place, adding a sauna and a steam room. He
Speaker 3: also added my favorite, Dylan, a heart shaped tub for
Speaker 3: two in the master suite.
Speaker 1: Nice.
Speaker 3: I want a heart shaped tub and.
Speaker 1: A vibrating bed. Oh man, I.
Speaker 3: Wish we need to find one of those old hotels
Speaker 3: in the Poconos with the heart shaped bed or the
Speaker 3: heart shaped vibrating bed and the heart shaped tub. I've
Speaker 3: seen those heart shaped beds too, Yeah, some of those
Speaker 3: really romantic spots from the seventies.
Speaker 1: The themed rooms.
Speaker 3: Man, Why we've gotten away from this type of fun.
Speaker 3: We as a society, we're not fun anymore. We used
Speaker 3: to have a little bit of whimsy. Right, you would
Speaker 3: have a gas station shaped like a dinosaur.
Speaker 1: Right, everything's the same.
Speaker 3: Now you would go stay in like the you know,
Speaker 3: the Poseidon room where there's like, you know, a big
Speaker 3: mural and some clamshells painted on the.
Speaker 1: Walls or whatever. We've lost our way we have.
Speaker 3: We need to bring back fun again. We're all such
Speaker 3: stick in the MUDs nowadays. I just want to go
Speaker 3: stay in your white hotel room with the white sheets
Speaker 3: and the white comforter.
Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, that's so you can see, if you
Speaker 1: can see if something's on them.
Speaker 3: Not me. I want to stay in the like King
Speaker 3: Arthur suite where there might be a torture device in
Speaker 3: the corner.
Speaker 1: Oh, you want to be pulling on that sword all night,
Speaker 1: It's true, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: Release excalib Larry added bulletproof glass to all the windows.
Speaker 3: He even built a replica of what he called a
Speaker 3: hillbilly cabin. In the basement of the home, he installed
Speaker 3: a three foot chicken statue.
Speaker 1: In honor of his first law.
Speaker 3: In honor of his first love, Yes stillan. Larry's house
Speaker 3: was located at thirty one South Columbia Avenue in the
Speaker 3: suburb of Bexley. It was eight thousand square feet, so
Speaker 3: big ass house. But the neighbors are not pleased. They
Speaker 3: looked down on Larry as a smut peddler. And you know,
Speaker 3: new money, the new voreche, and new money isn't as
Speaker 3: good as old money, right, that's what they say. Larry
Speaker 3: had wealth, but he did not have these social status
Speaker 3: or like pedigree that often comes with old money. Right.
Speaker 3: The residents were Ruetilary and Athum. The Columbus Monthly's cover
Speaker 3: featured Larry with the headline Hustler goes to Bexley. Local
Speaker 3: residents were panicked that he would turn the historic mansion
Speaker 3: into a playboy like, playboy style party house. One of
Speaker 3: the biggest points of friction was that the home set
Speaker 3: across from the Columbus School for Girls, A never complained
Speaker 3: to Time magazine saying Flint might start handing out lollipops
Speaker 3: to young girls. So Flint responded with, I'll probably be
Speaker 3: out there on the first day of school giving them out.
Speaker 3: That's how I get my kicks end quote.
Speaker 1: So they're this is often done. They're equating consenting adults
Speaker 1: sex work with pedophilia. Yes, when they're two. They're not
Speaker 1: mutually exclusive. They're two separate things.
Speaker 3: Well, and they're they're basically saying, like, because you do
Speaker 3: this for a living, this is what you do at.
Speaker 1: Home, right, Like, yeah, I know, And just.
Speaker 3: Because he and Althia have this publication, they actually when
Speaker 3: they're home live a very quiet life. Ultimately, the neighbors
Speaker 3: spheres of orgies and NonStop parties were unfounded because again,
Speaker 3: Larry and Althea are quiet neighbors. They don't have big parties.
Speaker 3: They like staying at home. They're quiet, respectful neighbors, just
Speaker 3: doing their own thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I gotta imagine neighborhood like this. These you know,
Speaker 1: seven eight ten thousand square foot homes are probably on
Speaker 1: a fairly sizable lot, So it's not like you're right
Speaker 1: on top of your neighbor, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: They have to, and they oftentimes come with their own
Speaker 1: kind of building privacy the way they're designed, and for
Speaker 1: this very reason, you don't want to see your neighbors
Speaker 1: every time you walk out the door, so it would
Speaker 1: probably be hard to even bug somebody in a setting
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 3: In the summer of nineteen seventy six, Larry was charged
Speaker 3: with pandering, absent and organized crime in Cincinnati, Ohio. He
Speaker 3: was charged along with his brother Jimmy, and a guy
Speaker 3: named al Van shaik Now. At the time, Ohio treated
Speaker 3: corporations as people. Organized crime was defined as five or
Speaker 3: more people committing a crime together for profit. Cincinnati had
Speaker 3: developed a reputation during this period as one of the
Speaker 3: nation's most aggressive cities in prosecuting obscenity. Prosecutor Simon Lees
Speaker 3: made anti pornography enforcement a central part of his office's
Speaker 3: work in targeted magazines, bookstores, and adult movie theaters. Larry's
Speaker 3: trial lasted about five weeks. Prosecutors argued that multiple issues
Speaker 3: of Hustler published between July nineteen seventy five in May
Speaker 3: of nineteen seventy six met Ohio's definition of obscenity. The
Speaker 3: defense countered that the prosecution violated Larry's First Amendment rights
Speaker 3: and that the organized crime charge was an improper attempt
Speaker 3: to punish protected expression. In February of nineteen seventy seven,
Speaker 3: a jury convicted Flint. ALTHEA and Jimmy were acquitted, along
Speaker 3: with then Shake, the company executive. Larry was sentenced to
Speaker 3: seven to twenty five years in prison for the organized
Speaker 3: crime conviction. A concurrent six month prison sentence was imposed
Speaker 3: for obscenity. Flint served only six days in jail before
Speaker 3: being released on appeal. And in the end, the convictions
Speaker 3: did not stand well.
Speaker 1: No, because they were obviously just convicting him of being
Speaker 1: Larry Flint for the most part, and they don't like
Speaker 1: what he does, and that's never going to hold up.
Speaker 1: And I'm surprised it was resolved that quickly, though he
Speaker 1: could have been in jail a lot longer.
Speaker 3: The Cincinnati prosecution became a defining moment in Larry Flint's career.
Speaker 3: It transformed him from a controversial publisher into a national
Speaker 3: figure associated with First Amendment rights. And this is where
Speaker 3: we are going to end part one.
Speaker 1: Okay, for the day. Now, I've learned so much about
Speaker 1: Larry Flint.
Speaker 3: You have, Yeah, there were things you didn't know.
Speaker 1: Well, no, I didn't know very much about his humble
Speaker 1: beginnings and coming from that kind of poverty and stuff.
Speaker 1: So it's very interesting.
Speaker 3: It is very interesting. Did you ever watch the film
Speaker 3: The People Versus Larry Flint?
Speaker 1: I have not. Is that Woody Harrelson Larry Flint?
Speaker 3: You've never seen it? No, we have to screen this film, Dylan.
Speaker 3: It's a great movie. Okay, I think it's really well done.
Speaker 1: We can watch.
Speaker 3: Oh, we're gonna. I can't believe you've never seen The
Speaker 3: People Versus Larry Flint.
Speaker 1: No, but this is I did know that he was,
Speaker 1: you know, real big about First Amendment Amendment rights and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and that every time someone tried to,
Speaker 1: you know, go after him or pornography, he always steered
Speaker 1: it back to it being a first First Amendment protected
Speaker 1: right of his to do what he's doing. And he
Speaker 1: seems to always be right.
Speaker 3: All right, Dylan, we're gonna wrap things up. We will
Speaker 3: be back with part two next week, and we promise
Speaker 3: we've got a midweek coming out as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do. We are on the other side of
Speaker 1: the holiday fourth of July week.
Speaker 3: Thanks for letting us take a little break yes, and we.
Speaker 1: Hope you have enjoyed your Fourth of July weekend.
Speaker 3: We hope you're having an amazing summer.
Speaker 1: We do.
Speaker 3: I want it to be the summer of fun for everyone.
Speaker 1: May your drinks always be cold and your headphones always
Speaker 1: charged yeah.
Speaker 3: May your sunscreen bottle always be full, yeah and flowing.
Speaker 1: May your latter never run out of peyutane.
Speaker 3: There you go, Yes, exactly all right, sir Grill. Always
Speaker 3: have charcoal.
Speaker 1: Until next time. We will catch you later, I guess.
Speaker 1: By Dylan by