WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:09.240 Hi, I'm your host, doctor Lori, and welcome to Universally Unique, 2 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:13.800 Exploring the neurodiverse world of the extraordinary. This podcast foster's 3 00:00:13.880 --> 00:00:20.120 curiosity and understanding about neurodiversity while empowering individuals with tools 4 00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:24.800 for acceptance and inclusion in classrooms, the workplace, and communities. 5 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:29.640 Featuring shared stories of neurodiverse life experiences, it sheds light 6 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:34.240 on navigating a world not designed for diversity. Universally Unique 7 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:43.640 starts now. Hi, this is doctor Lori. Welcome to Universally Unique. 8 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:47.920 My guest today is doctor Ethan Margolis, and he is 9 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:51.320 going to take us through his journey as an individual 10 00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:55.640 who is neurodiverse and probably a little mixed in with 11 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:59.600 some of his professional experiences, and I think kind of 12 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:02.880 bounce off of that. But before we get started, we're 13 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:07.640 going to take three box breaths. I'll count us through those, 14 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:12.840 and then we'll hear Ethan's story. So we'll start. We'll 15 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:16.159 breathe in for four, hold for four, breathe out for four, 16 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:20.959 hold for four, and start again. So breathe inn two 17 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:32.319 three four, hold two three four. Breathe out two three four, 18 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:43.599 hold two three four. Breathe in two three four hold 19 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:54.480 two three four, breathe out two three four, Hold two 20 00:01:55.159 --> 00:02:07.200 three four, breathe in two three four, hold two three four, 21 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:17.960 breathe out two three four, hold two three four, and 22 00:02:18.039 --> 00:02:24.759 a nice side at the end. All right, So, doctor Marcolis, 23 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:25.199 is it okay? 24 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:28.759 If I call you Ethan, I'd prefer that, Yes, okay. 25 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:34.520 So if you would maybe give us a little overview 26 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:40.599 of your journey as an individual who is neurodiverse. I 27 00:02:42.120 --> 00:02:47.800 think pieces of it are probably shorter and longer than others. 28 00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:51.479 But if you would take us through kind of when 29 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:54.159 you got a diagnosis, how that worked out, and where 30 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:55.439 that's kind of brought you to. 31 00:02:56.439 --> 00:03:00.960 Sure. First things first, I began my career in a 32 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:06.439 small private elementary school KA eight. It was called Buckingham 33 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:09.759 Friends' School, so it was the whole school had Mike 34 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:13.719 graduating class from eighth grade, had fifteen students in it. 35 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:17.199 It was one of those places where we learned Latin, 36 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:22.319 we learned Greek, we learned French. We had a whole day. 37 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:28.919 Thursdays were spent cleaning the property. It was when we 38 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:32.800 did science classes. We went down to the creek when 39 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:36.800 we wanted geography. There was always somebody in the community 40 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.479 who had lived in a particular place or knew somebody 41 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:42.599 in a particular place, and they would come in and 42 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:45.719 we would learn through them. So it was a lot 43 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:49.680 of hands on exploration. Every single morning started out with 44 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:54.000 a journaling exercise, and it was what we had done 45 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:56.439 the previous day, what we'd learned from it, and what 46 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:02.719 our goals were for today. I was a unique experience 47 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:06.159 because I didn't realize that I had any anything that 48 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:09.159 was different than anybody else, because the whole place was 49 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:11.919 geared around the idea that everybody was a unique thinker 50 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.280 and learner and a lot of there was no rote 51 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:19.399 memory involved in the whole process. It was all a 52 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:24.199 lot of questions, and so everything always started out with 53 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:29.319 a question and everything usually went from there. So that 54 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:33.759 was I spent my first eight years in school there, 55 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:35.920 and I knew everybody in the school, and everybody knew 56 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:41.000 me because it was a small school. When I reached 57 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:44.519 high school age, my parents were starting to save for 58 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:47.839 my sister gone off the cop was going off to college. 59 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:50.800 I was going to be next in a few years, 60 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:53.120 and then my brother. So they decided it was time 61 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:55.279 for me to go to public school. So I went 62 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:58.240 from a school where there were fifteen kids in my 63 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.720 graduating class to my to a regional high school where 64 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:04.800 there are three hundred kids in my freshman class. 65 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:06.040 It's a bit of a shock. 66 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:09.160 It was. To say it was a culture shock was 67 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:13.639 the understatement of the week. It was. I mean people 68 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:17.519 were moving from We didn't move from. We moved when 69 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:20.680 I was in elementary school. We moved to different buildings 70 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:23.079 where things were going on, but we didn't really change 71 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:28.319 classes in the formal sense of changing classes. Suddenly I 72 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:30.800 was changing classes. I was using a locker, I was 73 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:35.240 doing stuff that I had never done before, and I 74 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:38.120 didn't get it. I didn't understand the culture. I didn't 75 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:41.839 understand the process. I suddenly went from a place where 76 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:44.759 everything started out with every morning started out with journaling, 77 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:48.240 every day ended up with journaling, to a place where 78 00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:52.600 it was all wrote memory. So every single teacher would 79 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:56.480 ask you'd have to memorize all these things. I had 80 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:01.279 never done that because in the past, but didn't make connections. 81 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:05.120 We didn't learn it. So everything was designed to make connections, 82 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:07.839 and so I would ask questions like why are we 83 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:10.959 learning this, and they would say, you've got a problem. 84 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.120 It generally cheapers don't like students like that. 85 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:17.720 Yeah, it was. It was so very and why why 86 00:06:17.720 --> 00:06:20.079 did you just fail this test? Don't you? Aren't you studying? 87 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:21.920 I didn't know how to study because I had never 88 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:26.519 had to study it, just learned. So it was a 89 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:29.879 unique experience in the sense that so my freshman year, 90 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:35.120 my mother was absolutely beside herself. She didn't know what 91 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:38.199 to do. So she took me and I had They 92 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:42.079 evaluated me, and they decided I had ADHD, which I 93 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:44.879 knew I had a d D, you know, DHD most 94 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:46.839 of my life because it was one of those people 95 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:49.600 who just never sat anywhere, always was moving and finding 96 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.759 things and fought in a different way than most people did. 97 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:55.399 And I didn't realize that until I got to high 98 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:58.680 school and I would see connections that other people didn't see, 99 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:01.519 and they would question and why I'd made that connection, 100 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:04.199 and it wasn't in the books, so therefore it wasn't right. 101 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:08.319 So it took a while for me to realize that. 102 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:12.040 I mean, four years of high school were probably the 103 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:14.519 most stressful time in my life. I mean, it's stressful 104 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:16.800 for any kid to go through puberty and go through 105 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:19.120 all that. For me, it was doubly stressful because I 106 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:22.600 just didn't figure it all out. I finally started getting it, 107 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:26.720 like my senior year, you know, I would get things like, well, 108 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:28.279 he did well in the test, but he didn't do it. 109 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:31.800 He hasn't turned into any homework well, because I didn't 110 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:33.600 see any sense in doing the homework because I already 111 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:35.720 understood what was going on, So why should I be 112 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:37.759 doing something that I didn't need to do. So I 113 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:40.360 would have arguments with the teacher and they would explain 114 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:41.800 to me that that's the way it worked here, that 115 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:45.000 you do your homework and then and homework is part 116 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:47.560 of your grade. And I would ask, why is it 117 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:50.160 part of my grade? If I if you're going to 118 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:53.079 evaluate me on a test, just let me learn this 119 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:56.600 stuff and I'll come back and tell you. So I 120 00:07:56.759 --> 00:07:59.959 was probably going to spend another year as a senior, 121 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:04.399 except I went in and my mother came in and 122 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:06.959 she had a conversation with the with the with my 123 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:10.120 physics teacher who was going to fail me, and she said, 124 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:14.480 what happens if let's he learns differently than other people do? 125 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:17.560 What happens if you if I if you give me 126 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:21.800 him the book, let him go home? And not turn 127 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:24.000 in your homework and take the test. If he takes 128 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:26.399 the test and he fails it, then you can fail him. 129 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:29.120 If he takes a test and he passes it, then 130 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:33.080 you then you'll agree to give him a passing grade. 131 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:36.759 And he said, in no way and whatever that he's 132 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:38.600 going to pass it. Sure, why not? What I got 133 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:40.879 to lose? So I went home, I took the book, 134 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.000 I read it. I came back. I got the second 135 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:48.039 highest grade on the test. This was the final, so 136 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:49.879 he had to give me. He said, well, I'm going 137 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:52.720 to give you a D. And I said, wait a minute. 138 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:55.960 Everybody else who got this grade got and a Oh come, 139 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:58.480 I'm getting a D. Well, you never turned into any homework, 140 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:02.559 I said, you already, So I said you He said, 141 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:06.879 you are You can't possibly get an I said, but 142 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:09.519 I passed the test. And that's how you said you 143 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:12.759 determined it because it was you know, I was in 144 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:14.919 New Jersey, so they weren't region's tests. They were, but 145 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:17.000 it was a state test. So I said, I did 146 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:19.799 really well on it, and he said, so we we 147 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:22.720 negotiated to a BEE. So I got. I graduated high 148 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:25.399 school anyway. 149 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:27.720 But your mother was so smart though. 150 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.919 That was not It was was how do I inscribe her. 151 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:40.480 She was not a nurturing individual, but she was tiger 152 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:43.200 mother for her kids. So she went to bat for 153 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:47.559 all of our kids. But don't expect. Always expected you're 154 00:09:47.559 --> 00:09:48.960 going to get a kind word out of her, but 155 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:51.080 you're going to get support where you need it. Both 156 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:53.759 of my parents were that way. I mean they were 157 00:09:54.759 --> 00:09:58.200 they were care They loved their children, but they didn't 158 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:02.600 know they It wasn't a huggy relationship. It was you know, 159 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:05.200 you can do it. And my father was a farmer, 160 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:07.559 so I mean it was just like, you do the 161 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:09.159 stuff you need to do. When you get it done, 162 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:12.679 you get the job done. So if somebody's showing up 163 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:16.120 at ten o'clock, you're there at nine forty two, so 164 00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:19.080 there's no question. So there were skills that he gave 165 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:23.879 me that really helped me because normally what I would 166 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:26.080 do is wait till the last minute and score around 167 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:29.559 with it and then get it done. That only works 168 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:32.879 a little bit of the time. It didn't work, and 169 00:10:32.919 --> 00:10:34.799 I didn't realize until I went to college. So I 170 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:36.320 went off to college and went to the Regity of 171 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:40.440 Pittsburgh for my freshman year, and I just abot failed out. 172 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:43.559 And why I did was because they said you don't 173 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:45.279 have to go to class, so I didn't go to class. 174 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:47.399 They said you can read this stuff and you can 175 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:51.600 come and take the test. I did that, and it 176 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:53.679 didn't work for me because I did need to be 177 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:56.879 a class and I didn't realize it. So while I 178 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.320 was there, I realized the first thing I was going 179 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:02.399 in to be an engineer, and there's no way in 180 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:04.360 God's green earth I was going to be an engineer. 181 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:06.600 But I liked the stuff and I thought, Okay, this 182 00:11:06.679 --> 00:11:09.799 is interesting. I can do this. And I came away 183 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:16.200 realizing that wasn't me. So I transferred to schools. I 184 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:19.679 went to Fairley Dickinson, which is in New Jersey, and 185 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:25.720 I became a triple major. I had Latin American studies, history, 186 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.960 and hotel and restaurant management. 187 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:30.360 It's quite a combo. 188 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:33.320 Well you didn't quite know what to do with it 189 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:37.399 because it was so diverse, but I figured I sat 190 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:40.720 down they were College was a lot different. I mean, 191 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:42.240 I went out of high school thinking I was a 192 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:45.039 total idiot. I'll be honest, I did because I didn't. 193 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:47.639 I didn't get it. I didn't get the grades. I 194 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:50.759 didn't know the answers in the class because they were 195 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:53.159 wanting me to stand up and say, you know, fourteen 196 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:57.480 ninety two thirty thirty. You know, it didn't make any 197 00:11:57.519 --> 00:11:59.320 sense to be so I didn't bother learning it. I 198 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:01.360 go to college and I'm sitting in classes in there. 199 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:04.919 It's really interesting. These guys know a lot about this stuff, 200 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:07.080 and their show say, well, you know what, if you 201 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:09.960 read the footnotes on the bottom, then you could even 202 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:17.759 get more information. And I went, oh, and that's so. 203 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:21.919 I It's like I would go off on these aroundous 204 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.200 tangents and I'd go to class and somebody would say, 205 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:27.399 you know something about Galileo and I'd say, well, it's 206 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:30.039 not quite there. If if you read the footnotes he 207 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:34.240 did you have. So I would take books that it 208 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:36.759 was like, oh my god, somebody opened up the whole 209 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:39.720 world to me that I didn't know existed. So I 210 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:42.120 loved college. I absolutely loved it. I loved it because 211 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:45.840 I picked my classes. I had one of those screwy majors. 212 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:49.600 I go off to the work world and I realized 213 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:51.840 as I'm graduating that firstly, I don't want to most 214 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:54.440 of the people who were like, you know history Latin 215 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:56.759 American were going to law school or become in the 216 00:12:56.759 --> 00:12:59.200 farm service. That wasn't of interest to me. So and 217 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:01.960 I had this program in you know, hotel and restaurant management. 218 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:05.759 I'd worked in restaurants through college, so I said, I 219 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:07.440 think I want to go do that. So I got 220 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.519 a job working for AR Food Services, which is a 221 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.919 large food service corporation and they ran hotels and programs 222 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:20.639 throughout the whole world. So I went to work for them, 223 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:26.240 and I worked in Venezuela in Macuto, and they sent 224 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:30.080 us there because the the hotel had been owned by 225 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:36.120 Hilton originally and the company the country had nationalized it 226 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:38.879 and suddenly bus boys became managers and they ran it 227 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:41.519 right into the ground. So they went so they went 228 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:43.919 out and looked for bids. So Aar said, sure, we'll 229 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:46.159 come and run the hotel. We want all the money 230 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:49.799 up front, and we'll send our team. Well, our team 231 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:56.039 was eight young guys and ladies who this was our 232 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:59.440 first job. So we went there and we were there 233 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:02.039 to suppose to help to train them so that they 234 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:05.600 could become run the thing themselves. Well, they weren't really 235 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:09.720 interested in training. They were interested in other stuff, so 236 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:11.559 we ended up having to run the hotel. So I 237 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:16.720 spent a year there living in the hotel, not seeing 238 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:19.200 a heck of a lot of Venezuela or Columbia. So 239 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:23.519 a little bit on some breaks, but basically I just 240 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:26.679 worked there and put the money aside because I was 241 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:28.759 not spending any money because I wasn't going anywhere and 242 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:30.279 I was living in an hotel for free and eating 243 00:14:30.279 --> 00:14:34.559 for free. So after a year that the contract was 244 00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:37.120 ready to end, it had not worked out well. The 245 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:40.200 company was ready to just the contract ran out. They 246 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:42.360 were having trouble collecting the rest of their money from 247 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.559 the government, and they said, come on home, we're going 248 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:48.879 to well reassign you all. And I came home. I 249 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:50.759 had to set down. I had a conversation with my 250 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:57.639 father and I said, I effing hate this job. I 251 00:14:57.639 --> 00:15:00.519 have no life. A lot of the people I'm working 252 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:04.519 with our total jerks. It's not something I want to 253 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:06.399 do for the rest of my life. He said, well, 254 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:08.919 you've got a lot of money because you've been banking it. 255 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:11.039 You haven't done anything with it. Take some time off 256 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:12.360 and figure out what you want to do. At the time, 257 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:16.080 I had a girlfriend who was this who who is 258 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:19.279 a special ed teacher teaching At the time, they called 259 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:23.080 them rehearted individuals. No, we don't use that term. Yeah, 260 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:25.919 we don't use Yeah. Well I went into work with 261 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:27.879 her because I had plenty of time I was hanging out, 262 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:30.519 and I really loved it. I loved working with the kids. 263 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.120 I loved explaining to the kids how things work. I said, 264 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:34.440 this is something I ever think I want to do, 265 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:39.559 So I got a job. I did that for a 266 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.519 couple about two or three months, and I got a 267 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:49.279 job working teaching special education and running a program. They 268 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:51.600 called it resource room, but it was not a resource room. 269 00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:54.440 It was basically a self contained program for high school 270 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:58.639 students in Wildwood, New Jersey. Now wild Wood in the 271 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:00.759 winter is not We used to call it dead Wood. 272 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:03.279 It's not a place you really want to spend time. 273 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:05.519 But it was a great learning experience for me because 274 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:08.240 number one, I hadn't gotten through any I hadn't taken 275 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:10.440 any coursework. Yet they hired me because I was big 276 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:14.720 and the kids were emotionally disturbed, and I said, I 277 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:15.960 really want to do this and I want to do 278 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:18.159 it right. So I was I went back to school 279 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.559 and went nights and the state of New Jersey at 280 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.240 the time where they were paying for the for you 281 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:26.159 to go and get certified because they really need a 282 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:29.799 special ed teachers. So I went and got certified. At 283 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:33.879 the end of the year, I realized that there's something 284 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:35.759 I really wanted to do, and I moved to a 285 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:40.840 different job. That led to a whole bunch of may 286 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:43.559 b I think I was in that was in middle 287 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:47.679 school job, and I was working with kids who had 288 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.759 learning issues. In those days, it was they weren't as 289 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:54.559 well defined as they are now, but so it was 290 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:58.320 a conglamoration of everybody under the sun. It was kids 291 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:01.000 who had social emotional problems. It was kids who had 292 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:05.119 severe learning issues, it was kids who had led a 293 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:07.839 capability to learn specific task. So it was all that 294 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.839 stuff thrown into one place. But it was really fun 295 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:14.640 and it was exciting. So that led to me saying, 296 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:16.400 you know what, I want to go and do more 297 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:19.640 and I so I went on and went to graduate 298 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.759 school and I went to the University of Florida in Gainesville. 299 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:26.960 While I was in Florida, and it was there were 300 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:29.559 so many different opportunities to learn and grow, So it 301 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:32.440 led to a lot of other I got it. I 302 00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:38.359 was in a program for training special administrators and and 303 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:42.960 also learning disabilities at the time, so it was a 304 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:46.160 it was a good program. I went from there my 305 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:48.960 first when I completed my first internship, which was at 306 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:55.240 the Latchua County because in Florida all of the school 307 00:17:55.240 --> 00:18:00.759 systems are county based, Wachua County school System and I 308 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:03.599 was worked with the director of Special Heed at the time, 309 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:07.519 and that was cool, but it wasn't It didn't require 310 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:10.119 a lot of my thought process. That required a lot 311 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:12.079 of just make sure you cross all the t's and 312 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:12.960 dot all the eyes. 313 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:15.319 That's the part that I mean, you can do. 314 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:18.319 That, but it was something I learned how to do that, 315 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:20.319 but I never liked it, so I said, this is 316 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:22.079 not something I want to do. So I went back 317 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:24.880 and met with Chuck Forgnan, who was my advisor at 318 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:27.599 the time, and he had worked for the federal government 319 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:30.680 for a lot of years and came to Florida and 320 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.400 he got me a job in the in the Department 321 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:38.599 of Education. So I went to Washington to work on 322 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:44.400 it with a in a program called Aid to the States. 323 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:46.079 And what aids to the States was. It was a 324 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:50.000 program to help school states, not school districts, but states 325 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:54.640 implement PL ninety four, which was prior to IDA and 326 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.759 prior to the special head laws. So I learned a 327 00:18:57.799 --> 00:18:59.720 lot there for just. 328 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:02.119 A second, and for folks who are not coming from 329 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:05.519 the same background that Ethan and I do, those are 330 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:09.720 the original laws that got students with disabilities a guaranteed 331 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:11.319 public school education right. 332 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.079 And my job really when I first began, my job 333 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:18.039 was basically I was on the phone, calling and talking 334 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:20.920 to parents and people who were trying to figure out 335 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.920 how to manipulate the system. More work through the system, 336 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:29.839 but more negotiate the system. And I heard horrendous stories. 337 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:35.680 I heard stories about kids literally being locked handcuffed to 338 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:41.720 a radiators and locked in rooms, and I mean the 339 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:43.359 schools didn't know what to do with the kids, so 340 00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:46.400 they were doing everything they could and rubber rooms, the 341 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.880 whole routine. But it was a real eye of when 342 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:53.519 I realized how much that particular program was needed, and 343 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.079 it gave me an opportunity. I watched Tom Irban, who 344 00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:00.319 was the director and had been the original author, along 345 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:05.960 with with Noel who was who was a state center 346 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:10.720 from Connecticut, and so I had a chance to talk 347 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:12.960 to all those people who were involved in that and 348 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:16.720 watch it, and it was just amazing. It was amazing 349 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:20.440 to watch them. It was amazing to watch people get 350 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:23.400 involved in things that they always knew were wrong. We 351 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:26.640 didn't know how to fix. This provided them the opportunity. 352 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.720 And Jimmy Carter was I mean, I've heard lots of 353 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.359 nasty things about him as a president, but I have 354 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:37.079 to say he was probably one of the smartest, nicest 355 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:39.000 people I ever met. And while I was there, I 356 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:41.920 mean he would come through ever regularly and just talk 357 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:44.240 to us and say, you know, ask us how it 358 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:46.400 was going and what we needed to do differently. So 359 00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:48.160 it was a real life when it for me. So 360 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.200 I was there for two years a half a year 361 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:55.200 as an intern, and then I spent a year and 362 00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:00.680 a half providing services for students who were in US 363 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:07.640 protectorates and helping and working with the Department Defense in 364 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:10.720 their schools helping them implement it. So it was a 365 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.000 great job, but there was a lot of traveling and 366 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.559 it was real I was not making any connections I 367 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:19.920 was making. It was an amazing job, but it wasn't 368 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:21.240 something I knew I wanted to do. For the rest 369 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:22.640 of my life. And most people who went to there 370 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:25.599 didn't stay forever years. 371 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.079 It's a person that's a job for a single person, 372 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:31.799 a person who doesn't really want to settle down, doesn't 373 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:34.759 want to get to know people, doesn't want to have I. 374 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:37.000 Know, I think there were there were family people there, 375 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:39.880 but their families were all in DC and they made 376 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:42.160 it work. And plus I met my wife at the 377 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:44.920 time too, which sort of added to the excitement. 378 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:50.359 But it reminds us though, how immensely disenfranchised individuals and 379 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:54.319 disabilities were. You know, people didn't know what to do. 380 00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:57.519 Sometimes people were afraid of these folks, but the reality 381 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:02.119 was is they were treated horrifically and in ways that 382 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:08.799 were so massively incredibly inhumane. And you know, one of 383 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:12.160 my one of my current worries, quite honestly at this point, 384 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:15.119 is that we may be going backwards instead of forwards 385 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:18.839 in the services that that we have the potential to provide. 386 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.960 Hopefully there are enough people who have been on the 387 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:26.000 front lines doing the work who understand how this needs 388 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:27.720 to happen that we're not going to We're not going 389 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:29.319 to reverse ourselves back to something. 390 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:31.839 Yeah, I agree with you, and I think it's it's hard, 391 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.920 but there's some things I learned along the process. And 392 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:39.000 for that, I mean I watched the institutionalization, which never 393 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:43.200 worked out correctly, but which basically, just for people who 394 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:47.559 don't know it was really removing. For many years, people 395 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:52.680 with severe disabilities were housed in large institutional settings and 396 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.559 they thought that, I mean, they had workshops and they 397 00:22:56.559 --> 00:22:58.440 had things going on, but they thought that was the 398 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:01.759 best method. And we realized it was not the best method. 399 00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:03.640 But it took a lot of work to figure that 400 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.279 all out. But so I left there and I went 401 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:11.640