Speaker 1: Last episode, we talked about part one of Leonard Lake
Speaker 1: and Charles ng. Today we continue that case with part two,
Speaker 1: So please check out part one and get ready for
Speaker 1: the rest of this case.
Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
Speaker 2: and Grim, a true crime podcast.
Speaker 1: The following podcast.
Speaker 2: Material intend for a mature audience listener discretion.
Speaker 3: Ad.
Speaker 1: We just got wine. We've been wine all day, well
Speaker 1: not all. We're on bottle number two, Okay, I've.
Speaker 2: Am freaking like, Oh no, I guess I've had two
Speaker 2: glasses of wine.
Speaker 1: Yeah you have.
Speaker 2: I haven't moved on to the white like you have, though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm halfway through the bottle of white. I
Speaker 1: guess apparently. Good God, it's been a good lubricant for
Speaker 1: the research on this case. I'm not gonna lie, all right,
Speaker 1: lubercint eh, It's yes, it's a lubricant. Huh of the emotions,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: That's one way to describe it. I am going to
Speaker 2: just say we are, well, Ben is drinking. I haven't
Speaker 2: got there.
Speaker 1: Yet, have a wine glass right there.
Speaker 2: But I was going to talk about the little straw
Speaker 2: or is this little straw?
Speaker 1: I don't know shit, I think this.
Speaker 2: Is Little Straw too. So Little Straw is in Kolonna.
Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite freakin' wineries. It's so damn good.
Speaker 1: No, this isn't sponsored. Nicole just actually likes their wine.
Speaker 2: I actually just I don't know. I like little, kind
Speaker 2: of smaller wineries and they're a little bit smaller. You're
Speaker 2: drinking Tapestry and it's really good.
Speaker 1: A little bit sweet for me, but it is pretty good.
Speaker 1: I usually like a bit of a dryer wine.
Speaker 2: But I guess it technically is in West Colonna. Yeah,
Speaker 2: West Colonna, the Okanagan.
Speaker 1: So this is a true Crown podcast, not a wine podcast.
Speaker 1: We should probably stop talking wine. We're not wine connoisseurs,
Speaker 1: at least I'm not.
Speaker 2: All I know is enjoy it touche.
Speaker 1: All I know is if it goes down good and
Speaker 1: it helps me research a case, which it definitely did
Speaker 1: on this one, because oh god, it's a doozy. Do
Speaker 1: you remember what happened in this case?
Speaker 2: To be brutally honest, I have no idea because since
Speaker 2: then I have shot two weddings, god knows what else.
Speaker 2: I've done lots of work and I barely remember.
Speaker 1: So your recap I got you back. I got a
Speaker 1: good recap. We're going to go over it. But before
Speaker 1: we do the recap, we of course have to thank
Speaker 1: our patroots. So we had two amazing people sign up
Speaker 1: over on Patreon this week. We have Stacey Ray Daniels
Speaker 1: and Sophia Shinn. Thank you very much. We're going to
Speaker 1: be doing a lot on Patreon this week with getting
Speaker 1: some input and we're prepping for a live over there
Speaker 1: at the end of the month too, so very cool. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So let's dive into this. Are you ready because I'm
Speaker 1: sure many people are listening to part one and diving
Speaker 1: right into part two. Oh yeah, let's keep it short.
Speaker 1: Let's get into this.
Speaker 2: Okay, we need to recap though.
Speaker 1: Okay, so the recap in part one of the case
Speaker 1: of Leonard Lake and Charles Saying, we discussed several things
Speaker 1: and amongst them, we started with Charles and the shoplifting
Speaker 1: from a lumber store, and that lumber store was South
Speaker 1: City Lumber and Supply. Now, being a kleptomaniac, Charles couldn't
Speaker 1: resist the urge to try and steal a table vice
Speaker 1: that was valued at about seventy five dollars. Now, unfortunately
Speaker 1: for him, he didn't get away with it. He was
Speaker 1: approached about the shoplifting at the car and took off running,
Speaker 1: while his friend Leonard Lake was left trying to talk
Speaker 1: with police and resolve the issue.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Leonard though, was arrested when they found an illegally modified
Speaker 1: rifle in the car, and Leonard, however, had an ace
Speaker 1: up as sleeve for being arrested for just such an occasion.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's coming back a little.
Speaker 1: While being held for questioning, officers return to the room, yeah,
Speaker 1: for him to be found on the floor convulsing and
Speaker 1: was later pronounced.
Speaker 2: Dead and he had left a note.
Speaker 1: He did leave a note. Yes, Now, it was discovered
Speaker 1: that Leonard had sewn cyanide tablets into the hem of
Speaker 1: his clothes and took his own life. This was the
Speaker 1: beginning of the officers diving into a rabbit hole of
Speaker 1: these two men, and along the way they found several
Speaker 1: connections between them and missing individuals, and the evidence just
Speaker 1: keeps piling up. Officers performed a search of Leonard's cabin
Speaker 1: in northern California with consent from his ex wife. They
Speaker 1: did not have a warrant, so it was a consent search,
Speaker 1: but when they found video equipment that belonged to a
Speaker 1: family who had been missing for the past eleven months.
Speaker 1: She immediately ended the consent search, kicking authorities off the property.
Speaker 1: And that's where we left off.
Speaker 2: Shit, And there was like a back shed or something,
Speaker 2: right there was ominous but back shed that they were Well, it's.
Speaker 1: Been described as many things. I'm going to continue calling
Speaker 1: it a shed, most likely in this I think I've
Speaker 1: described it a few different ways. But it's like a
Speaker 1: like a bunker, a shed, like another little cat, it's
Speaker 1: like a cinder block out building. Okay, so it's yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's because he was a bit of like a
Speaker 1: they call it a prepper, which I touch on in
Speaker 1: here a bit, and he like prepared for things like
Speaker 1: survivalists and stuff like that. So we had this like
Speaker 1: bunker for that sort of stuff too.
Speaker 2: So honestly, like not a terrible idea.
Speaker 1: No, it's not, especially giving today's world and how the
Speaker 1: economy is going. Yeah, like man, anyway, that's a whole
Speaker 1: other topic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is very much topic.
Speaker 1: Trust me, I can go especially given the lubricants I've
Speaker 1: been consuming today in this wine, I can go on
Speaker 1: for a long time. Both that.
Speaker 2: That's only I feel like it's a slight downfall of
Speaker 2: tiny home living ish because you're kind of like you
Speaker 2: can't really stalk up on food and stuff.
Speaker 1: You can pick up and go at any time kind
Speaker 1: of so long as you have a vehicle to tow it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but let's get onto this. You ready for part two?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I am. It's not going to be good, Okay,
Speaker 2: I remember, I'm remembering things, that's all right.
Speaker 1: So authorities were walking off the property and they eyed
Speaker 1: up that that outbuilding, the shed, the bunker, and they're
Speaker 1: wondering what was inside there was padlocked. They couldn't search
Speaker 1: anything else because the ex wife is like, hey, sorry,
Speaker 1: you got to get out of here now. Given the
Speaker 1: evidence that they had already obtained regarding Leonard and now
Speaker 1: discovering this stolen video equipment within the property if you
Speaker 1: remember that from last episode, because that's when you know
Speaker 1: they found this.
Speaker 2: And they phoned it in and stuff, right, yeah, match.
Speaker 1: The serial numbers everything. Given this connection with the video equipment,
Speaker 1: the police were able to obtain a search warrant and
Speaker 1: return back to the cabin only a few hours later.
Speaker 2: Nice, yeah, right on.
Speaker 1: This time, they didn't need permission from anyone. With a
Speaker 1: warrant in hand, they were able to search the property
Speaker 1: to the fullest extend. Okay, one of the first things
Speaker 1: they did was focus on the cinder block outbuilding that's shed.
Speaker 2: They did like a spider sense about this shed head.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's a little bit ominous. It's like, okay,
Speaker 1: what's in there? Right, So they didn't know what they
Speaker 1: would find inside, and they worked their magic getting the
Speaker 1: padlocks off because it was heavily locked. But once they
Speaker 1: managed to get their way in and they opened it,
Speaker 1: each investigator was holding their breath with the nerves of anticipation.
Speaker 1: The inside didn't seem anything out of the ordinary at first. Leonard,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, was a bit of a prepper, meaning
Speaker 1: someone who prepares for disasters, dire situations and of the world, etc.
Speaker 1: And everyone has their own thing that they're prepping for,
Speaker 1: so it prepping has different definitions within that. It could
Speaker 1: be food, it could be gas. You could be prepping
Speaker 1: they call it bug out bags, which is just a
Speaker 1: bag to get up and leave in the case of
Speaker 1: like a forest fire in our area, for example. So
Speaker 1: it all depends on what you're quote prepping for. So
Speaker 1: with him. Though, the inside didn't have many things that
Speaker 1: was too out of the ordinary, outside of course a
Speaker 1: little bit of prepping stuff, but there was also tools
Speaker 1: and stuff that you would actually generally find in a
Speaker 1: shed like structure as well. However, the first thing that
Speaker 1: they actually spotted out of the ordinary were twenty one
Speaker 1: photos that were adorning the wall. Now, the photos were
Speaker 1: of young women, some dressed some not. They didn't know
Speaker 1: who they were or who the pictures were taken from,
Speaker 1: like who took the pictures, but the investigators to them
Speaker 1: it seemed like it could possibly be a trophy wall.
Speaker 2: Oh jeez, that's disgusting.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They also found a journal inside this shed, a
Speaker 1: journal that was written by Leonard himself. Now, inside he
Speaker 1: talked about many different things, and he obsessedly talked about
Speaker 1: the book that he was really reading NonStop and basically
Speaker 1: held like a bible to him the collector remember that
Speaker 1: from last time, yeap. So he also had inserts in
Speaker 1: here where he talked about something called quote Project Moran,
Speaker 1: which was named after the woman in the book who
Speaker 1: was captured. So Miranda was the woman in the book
Speaker 1: who the individual was like obsessing with and wanted to
Speaker 1: make her part of his butterfly collection.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, so he named this his project Project Miranda,
Speaker 3: after Miranda from the book Oh Man. Okay, Now, I
Speaker 3: didn't allude a lot to a project Miranda really wrote.
Speaker 1: It really entailed. So authorities did keep searching, and they
Speaker 1: searched not only of course, through the shed, but the
Speaker 1: cabin as well though, and they were also spreading their
Speaker 1: their search across the property, and I believe it was
Speaker 1: about a third of an acre at this cabin was on. Now,
Speaker 1: on this property they found two different cars, both belonging
Speaker 1: to missing persons. Holy shit, it seemed all too easy
Speaker 1: to make the assumptions that killings were taking place and
Speaker 1: occurring at the hand of Leonard Lake. And if that
Speaker 1: was the case, it wouldn't be far fetched to think
Speaker 1: that bodies might be buried on this property as well.
Speaker 2: Well. Honestly, when they opened the shed, I was thinking
Speaker 2: that they were either was they're going to find someone
Speaker 2: alive in there or bodies a body of sort or something. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I was surprised that they that they didn't.
Speaker 1: Well, cadaver dogs were brought onto the scene because of
Speaker 1: the assumption that, you know what, there could be bodies buried.
Speaker 1: There could be someone here that we don't know of,
Speaker 1: And so dogs are brought on the scene and they roamed,
Speaker 1: they sniffed the property, you know, doing their job. It's dogs, right,
Speaker 1: and they found several different sites where various fires had
Speaker 1: been lit, which seemed to interest the dogs greatly. Now,
Speaker 1: one of the dogs in particular also found a bone,
Speaker 1: a bone that investigators immediately knew was not animal and
Speaker 1: identified as a human bone.
Speaker 2: Holy shit, I mean not surprising.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this was officially no longer an execution of a
Speaker 1: search warrant. Only three days later, after Leonard had actually
Speaker 1: committed suicide, the cabin property was officially a crime.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And he knew that, he knew his time was here, hey, like, oh,
Speaker 2: he knew he was done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why he had that backup plan. Doublets.
Speaker 2: That is just so interesting to just be living your
Speaker 2: life doing something so terrible that you have to just
Speaker 2: have this backup plan like this in case you get found.
Speaker 1: I know, like that, just like fuck him for not
Speaker 1: even facing what he did, you know, Yeah, like holy shit,
Speaker 1: what a fucking coward.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, actually yeah, that's yeah.
Speaker 1: So large crews of investigators in all different fields of expertise,
Speaker 1: of course, came to the site to begin to process
Speaker 1: the property. They sectioned it all off. They did, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if it's like a grid
Speaker 1: pattern or what exactly, most likely to my assumption, but
Speaker 1: they sectioned it off and designated different areas for different
Speaker 1: teams to begin their work. Now in the cinderblock shed,
Speaker 1: they continued the investigation and it led them to uncover
Speaker 1: some alarming things. They discovered a hidden door inside, not
Speaker 1: noticeable at first if you didn't know it was there.
Speaker 1: But after a while of searching and you know, due diligence,
Speaker 1: it was discovered the door was located behind some wall
Speaker 1: mounted shelves and once you kind of wiggled the shelves
Speaker 1: a bit, the door began to pull free with the
Speaker 1: shelves and it revealed a small room with a cot
Speaker 1: behind it.
Speaker 2: Whoa, okay, I was like, there has to be more
Speaker 2: to this frickin shed. Holy shit.
Speaker 1: And after further investigation on the hinges on this door
Speaker 1: as well, it seemed that they were buckling and bending
Speaker 1: a little bit, most likely from force from the inside.
Speaker 2: No yeah, oh man, okay, well I just can only
Speaker 2: I can only imagine like the chilling feeling that you
Speaker 2: would just get when you discover like this shit, I.
Speaker 1: Don't even know where my head would be, like I
Speaker 1: like trying to put myself in the shoes of an investigator,
Speaker 1: like discovering the door as one thing, but then the
Speaker 1: second you open it up and see firsthand what the
Speaker 1: fuck is back there, like holy.
Speaker 2: Fuck, I don't I feel like you almost wouldn't even
Speaker 2: be react like I mean, you would react emotionally, but
Speaker 2: like you wouldn't because you're just there like trying to
Speaker 2: solve this, you know, and you almost, like I don't know,
Speaker 2: take your emotions out of the picture, and it's just
Speaker 2: like fax facts, right, because fair.
Speaker 1: But I like for me, like my I don't know
Speaker 1: if you will, like anxiety takes form and like you know,
Speaker 1: when you get cold, you have the shivers. I have
Speaker 1: like a ball of that like shivers, but it's like
Speaker 1: so like so much smaller than shivers. It's like jitters.
Speaker 1: It's like a ball of it in my chest and
Speaker 1: I can just like trying to do my job, but
Speaker 1: I know that would be fucking going nuts.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean maybe you would have coping mechanisms
Speaker 2: of dealing with that, right, I guess or you do it.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that's why we see like old school detectives,
Speaker 1: just like drunks, never sleeping like you know, just obsessing.
Speaker 1: And I guess that's probably why. So Within behind this door, though,
Speaker 1: there was another door that led to a small closet area.
Speaker 1: So this closet area seemed as if it were almost
Speaker 1: a makeshift makeshift bathroom with toilet paper hanging in the wall.
Speaker 1: But the thing that stood out the most within these
Speaker 1: two rooms was a single piece of paper that was
Speaker 1: fixed to the wall. It was a list of rules,
Speaker 1: and the rules raid read as such. Number one, I
Speaker 1: must always be ready to service my master. I must
Speaker 1: be clean, brushed, and made up with my cell neat.
Speaker 1: Number two, I must never speak unless spoken to, unless
Speaker 1: in bed. I must never look my master in the eye,
Speaker 1: but must keep my eyes downcast. Number three, I must
Speaker 1: never show my disrespect, either verbally or silent. I must
Speaker 1: never cross my arms or legs in front of my body,
Speaker 1: or clench my fists, and unless eating, must always keep
Speaker 1: my lips parted. Four I must be obedient completely and
Speaker 1: at all things I must obey immediately and without question
Speaker 1: or comment. Number five. I must always be quiet when
Speaker 1: locked in my cell. Number six. I must remember and
Speaker 1: obey any additional rules told to me. I must understand
Speaker 1: that any disobedience, any pain, trouble, or annoyance caused by
Speaker 1: me to my master will be grounds for punishment.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm feeling my glass of wine here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, rightfully, So see why I said it was good
Speaker 1: lubricant for research on this, Because holy.
Speaker 2: Fat person is a nasty motherfucker. Yeah, that is like
Speaker 2: a I cannot even fathom someone being able to just
Speaker 2: come up with this list, like you are literally out
Speaker 2: of your mind. I'm sorry, but like you are, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and be to just be in that position and be
Speaker 2: having someone like doing, Oh my god, I just can't.
Speaker 2: I can't even like that. I just yeah, I'm about
Speaker 2: to say things.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't if you want to say it, well.
Speaker 2: I'm just like I don't even know, Like I would
Speaker 2: almost just want to die.
Speaker 1: To be honest, I can't blame you in that situation.
Speaker 1: I really can't. Yeah, Like the list of demands, they're
Speaker 1: brutal to read. I like, don't get me wrong, it
Speaker 1: took me two takes to get through that, and it
Speaker 1: was clear that Leonard was holding these individuals hostage here,
Speaker 1: there's no doubt about that, right, But the questions are
Speaker 1: who for how long? And what was their fate in
Speaker 1: the end, because they're not in there now, all of
Speaker 1: this is still unclear.
Speaker 2: Gosh, what a disgusting piece of shit.
Speaker 1: Now, Unfortunately, further processing and forensic analysis of this room
Speaker 1: in this shed yielded no evidence as far as fingerprints
Speaker 1: or DNA really had been meticulously cleaned top two bottom.
Speaker 2: That's like, really, like, how would you even do that?
Speaker 2: You think you'd miss something?
Speaker 1: I know, But no, there's nothing.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: Now, the search of the cabin also because we're in
Speaker 1: the shed here right now, we're going back to the
Speaker 1: cabin itself. The cabin also revealed some disturbing new evidence.
Speaker 1: Among all the possessions, items, and clutter inside, the investigators
Speaker 1: found a spew series of videotapes. Now, noting back to
Speaker 1: last episode, we discussed the bed in the cabin having
Speaker 1: holes in the posts floor seeming like they were used
Speaker 1: to tie or hold a person down there on the bed,
Speaker 1: and there was also a video camera that was set
Speaker 1: up pointed to the bed, So investigators were curious what
Speaker 1: they might actually find on these videotapes. Were they used
Speaker 1: in the camera, Were they potentially used in a crime,
Speaker 1: or they just you know, someone's harmless sex tape. Who knows.
Speaker 1: We don't know, right, but the investigators are like, there
Speaker 1: could potentially be some damning evidence on this.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think we know at this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So they played them and none of them were
Speaker 1: prepared for what they found.
Speaker 2: Oh no.
Speaker 1: On these tapes, it showed women being held and bound.
Speaker 1: They were often sitting in a chair with Leonard explaining
Speaker 1: to them that they are going to be held and
Speaker 1: that they are going to do as he pleases. He
Speaker 1: isn't the only one, though, man quickly identified as Charles
Speaker 1: ng is also present on these tapes. Now, Charles is
Speaker 1: the man who ran in the very first episode from
Speaker 1: after those shoplifting charges and he took off.
Speaker 2: And so they don't have him at this point, right.
Speaker 1: They currently don't. He's on the run. This is only
Speaker 1: three days later after that he took off, he got away.
Speaker 1: They had Leonard, he gave them Charles his name, wrote
Speaker 1: that suicide letter to his ex wife, took the cyanide tablet.
Speaker 1: And now they're investigating the cabin and they found proof
Speaker 1: to tie Charles to this cabin as well. Now on
Speaker 1: these tapes. Wow, because before Charles was just a shot
Speaker 1: uplifting friend, right, you know, it.
Speaker 2: Just doesn't even seem real. It doesn't even seem real
Speaker 2: that someone would be could like even do something like
Speaker 2: this to another humor.
Speaker 1: Oh well, I haven't even really described what they're actually
Speaker 1: doing on these tapes.
Speaker 2: Well, I know, but my mind is obviously going. But
Speaker 2: even just to capture someone, to sit them down and
Speaker 2: to tell them this is what they're doing now, and
Speaker 2: it's just like shit.
Speaker 1: These women are being told to obey and do as
Speaker 1: they're told, things like they're going to cook, they're going
Speaker 1: to clean, and they're going to fuck when called upon. Wow,
Speaker 1: they do not wish to do these things, then they
Speaker 1: will swiftly be killed and that You can watch some
Speaker 1: of these tapes. There's not a whole lot of it
Speaker 1: out there, but there are some clips and it's fucking it.
Speaker 1: Got this, I know, But I think that they were
Speaker 1: released probably to the public and like for case purposes
Speaker 1: or evidence purposes, I don't know, but this leads me
Speaker 1: to tie this case in a similar fashion to the
Speaker 1: toy box skin.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was I think I did the toy box killer. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've never been the same since that day that I
Speaker 2: researched that. Holy shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, continuing in these videos, their clothes that these
Speaker 1: women are being worn, that they're wearing, they're being cut
Speaker 1: off from their bodies with a knife. So the women
Speaker 1: are sitting there, they're tied, the cameras rolling on them.
Speaker 1: They're being told you will do these things or you
Speaker 1: will die. And then one of them walks up and
Speaker 1: begins cutting their clothes off with a knife, leaving them nude,
Speaker 1: or at least mostly nude, and at the mercy of
Speaker 1: their captors. Now, one woman is seen asking for her
Speaker 1: baby repeatedly.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, are you kidding me?
Speaker 1: But Leonard tells her it's not her baby anymore and
Speaker 1: he has given it away.
Speaker 2: Holy shit, so like a new mom. Yeah, that is
Speaker 2: a new level of evil.
Speaker 1: It is well, I mean, the fucking psychological torture alone
Speaker 1: in this is unfathomable. So yeah. Now. Processing of the
Speaker 1: property outside the buildings, too, brought up more overwhelming amounts
Speaker 1: of concerning evidence. There were several burial sites found where
Speaker 1: possessions from missing individuals were stashed and buried, all of
Speaker 1: which were of course taken into evidence. So many of
Speaker 1: them were like, hey, you know, there's some like loose
Speaker 1: kind of dirt here. It's obviously something's been buried. And
Speaker 1: there's things like you know, clothing or whatever being buried,
Speaker 1: possessions from like people's homes buried, whatever it was. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of shit being buried in several different sites
Speaker 1: of property, Like I can I can't even get into
Speaker 1: the amount of shit that was found. It's just it's overwhelming.
Speaker 2: So like they went about hiding or going about hiding things,
Speaker 2: but not really too. I mean, I guess if they
Speaker 2: knew people were going to be on the property, like
Speaker 2: they aren't police or whatever, they'd end up finding this thing.
Speaker 2: So they hit it, but not very well really.
Speaker 1: They hit it. Whereas if no one knows, no one's
Speaker 1: going to know. Yeah, but is for someone to stumble
Speaker 1: upon one little thing and the whole the gas up,
Speaker 1: which is exactly why Leonard had the backup of the
Speaker 1: Cyanide tablet, because all it takes is one fucking piece
Speaker 1: to fall out of place, yea, the whole thing comes
Speaker 1: crumbling down, and that one fucking thing was then being
Speaker 1: stopped in a shoplifting.
Speaker 2: Event well, yeah, and he knew. I feel like you
Speaker 2: can only be a monster for so long. Like these
Speaker 2: people do generally end up getting caught. Like it's just
Speaker 2: it's not something that they get away with most people,
Speaker 2: I don't think, right like you do get caught eventually.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, these guys are definitely about to get caught.
Speaker 1: So on the property outside Buried there was also the
Speaker 1: discovery of two bodies that were wrapped in sleeping bags
Speaker 1: and found. They both seem to be gagged and handcuffed
Speaker 1: and were later identified as Lonnie Bond Junior and Robin
Speaker 1: Scott Stapley now Robin or sorry Lonnie was the boyfriend
Speaker 1: of Brenda O'Connor. Together they lived lived in a cabin
Speaker 1: nearby Leonard's cabin. They along with their two year old son,
Speaker 1: had been missing for about two months. Oh man, now
Speaker 1: Robin Scott Stapeley who went by the name Scott, so
Speaker 1: I'll be referring to him as as Scott. Now Scott
Speaker 1: was also a neighbor of Leonards and a friend of his,
Speaker 1: and he had been missing for about two months as well.
Speaker 1: Now Scott's ID was found in Leonard's possession already. In fact,
Speaker 1: while he was still alive because when he first talked
Speaker 1: to the officers and he tried to identify himself and
Speaker 1: gave the ID that he did not match. That was
Speaker 1: the ID he gave. Okay, I remember from first.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, it's surprising that there they're like people that
Speaker 2: are like neighbors and close by and stuff.
Speaker 1: Well, and that's the thing too, it's you have like
Speaker 1: you can you only have so many neighbors, right, Neighbors
Speaker 1: are missing here, neighbors are missing there. How did he
Speaker 1: not get questioned about this yet or any search come, like,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, really that's like too close to home.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the whole grounds on this property were being
Speaker 1: combed for more remains. With the discovery of two bodies, Like, okay,
Speaker 1: we have two grave sites here, two people who are buried,
Speaker 1: two people who are killed and buried. There's got to
Speaker 1: be some more, Like what are the odds of it
Speaker 1: just being these two that we'veore stumbled across. There's got
Speaker 1: to be some more remains. Though no intact bodies were uncovered,
Speaker 1: the amount of remains that did come to the surface
Speaker 1: was staggering. Now, as I already mentioned, there were burned
Speaker 1: sights in the property. It was obvious that remains were
Speaker 1: being disposed of in other ways other than just burials. Now,
Speaker 1: especially since cadaver dogs had also uncovered a single solo bone,
Speaker 1: they knew the chances of them finding more bone fragments.
Speaker 1: It was basically a shot in the dark. But it's like,
Speaker 1: hit that wall with this dart in the dark, you're
Speaker 1: going to right, It's like, yes, it's just there's no
Speaker 1: doubt in their mind, and they were, of course right.
Speaker 1: So many people were scouring every inch of this property
Speaker 1: on their hands and knees during the investigation, raaking through
Speaker 1: the grass and dirts with their bare hands looking for
Speaker 1: bone fragments. As a result, hundreds and I mean hundreds
Speaker 1: of bone fragments were discovered in various sizes, from the
Speaker 1: size of a nickel or dime to that of like
Speaker 1: a chicken bone or even a little bit bigger. And
Speaker 1: it all added up to over ten pounds of bone
Speaker 1: fragments that were collected.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: Hey, they believed would just have discovered around five different victims,
Speaker 1: but estimates and how many there actually were on the
Speaker 1: property ran as high as a potential count of twenty
Speaker 1: to twenty five.
Speaker 2: Oh man, okay, I knew it was going to be high,
Speaker 2: but that's high.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is that just.
Speaker 2: Like the way you described that too. Just like so,
Speaker 2: I mean, I know it's like done an organized fashion
Speaker 2: and stuff, but just like so frantic, right, like just
Speaker 2: searching for whatever pieces and bones and stuff that you
Speaker 2: can find, Like, oh.
Speaker 1: My, well, that's what they're doing. And I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: in something like this, like they're quite literally doing like
Speaker 1: an excavation, right, Like it's think like Jurassic Park, they
Speaker 1: do a grid fashion and it's like here's your grid
Speaker 1: like search, and I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they
Speaker 1: were doing because they were they were going through it
Speaker 1: with their hands.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So and you feel like there could even be
Speaker 2: things deeper or something too or write.
Speaker 1: Oh very possible. I mean, how can you fully excavate
Speaker 1: like a third of an acre to like you don't
Speaker 1: know how deep and where what?
Speaker 2: I don't even know if you can really.
Speaker 1: No, And even if you do, it's going to take
Speaker 1: so long unless you're using equipment, which is just going
Speaker 1: to ruin the site and you're not going to find
Speaker 1: anything anyways. Right, you have to do it by hand,
Speaker 1: you have to do it carefully, you have to do
Speaker 1: it slowly. Now investigators knew that they had to find Charles.
Speaker 1: At this point, he was no longer just a shoplifter.
Speaker 1: There was video proof that tied him to the disappearance
Speaker 1: of several individuals, and he was quickly put at the
Speaker 1: top of the I'm sorry, I put on the top
Speaker 1: ten FBI's most wanted list. Now. Thankfully because of this,
Speaker 1: there was quite a bit of news and media coverage
Speaker 1: on the case, specifically around his name of course, right,
Speaker 1: but there was a lot spreading both nationwide and worldwide,
Speaker 1: and authorities were able to rely in the public's help
Speaker 1: in locating him. Soon, a witness reported seeing Charles get
Speaker 1: on a bus and headed for Toronto, Canada. Now, as
Speaker 1: I mentioned in last one, he did have a citizenship
Speaker 1: in Canada, which made it very easy for him to
Speaker 1: flee the country.
Speaker 2: Right. I was just like, go away, we don't want
Speaker 2: you here.
Speaker 1: So authorities were able to learn that Charles had a
Speaker 1: sister who lived in Toronto, Okay, and they believe that,
Speaker 1: of course he's probably going to head there seek some
Speaker 1: refuge with his family hide out, right, But after watching
Speaker 1: outside her house for several days and nights, it was
Speaker 1: clear that he did not intend heading there because he
Speaker 1: never showed up.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, yeah, I don't get her involved in this, Shita.
Speaker 1: So after trying to find him, tracking him down, the
Speaker 1: trail went cold and it left investigators wondering where he went.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, they knew it was only
Speaker 1: a matter of time until he resurfaced.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Well yeah, when you're at the point where
Speaker 2: you have this many people looking for you, you know
Speaker 2: it's going to happen exactly.
Speaker 1: Like, you can't stay hidden forever, and the only way
Speaker 1: to do so is like you're going to like a
Speaker 1: third world country or something like that. And like if
Speaker 1: you're on FBI's most wanted list right now, like good
Speaker 1: luck flying or you know, totally now. Approximately one month later,
Speaker 1: oh that long one month?
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I don't even know what's in one month.
Speaker 2: I'm assuming he's found, but geez, that's a long time.
Speaker 1: That's a long time, you think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought he would have been found like a
Speaker 2: couple of days.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well it was one month later in Calgary, Alberta.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, he's close a well close to us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you need a point of reference for anyone listening
Speaker 1: out there used to wear Edmonton.
Speaker 2: Yeah, close to where we live. We don't live in Edmonton,
Speaker 2: but like the province next to this, Alberta.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're about an eight nine hour drive away from Calgary, Alberta.
Speaker 1: But anyways, in Calgary. About a month later, a young
Speaker 1: boy was riding his bike through a park. He was
Speaker 1: playing and enjoying the great outdoors like any kid in
Speaker 1: the eighties would right now, As he explored the area,
Speaker 1: he came across a tent shelter set up in a
Speaker 1: forested section of the park, and there amongst it, the
Speaker 1: boy spotted a man. Now he recognized this man from
Speaker 1: wanted posters that he had seen.
Speaker 2: Whoa what an observant little boy, it was Charles Ing.
Speaker 2: Huh Yeah, how old was this kid? Sorry? Ten or so?
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly. He was just a young boy.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, for some reason I was ink in ten,
Speaker 2: but like, gosh, he could have.
Speaker 1: Been ten, he could have been thirteen. I'm not a
Speaker 1: certain age like a.
Speaker 2: Kid would even you know know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but after seeing this guy and recognizing him, the
Speaker 1: boy quickly hopped back on his bike and took and
Speaker 1: he reported what he seen to officers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, get the fuck out of there, man, No kidding, right.
Speaker 1: So officers then had the boy lead him back to
Speaker 1: where he spotted Charles, and so he did. But by
Speaker 1: the time they arrived back in the park and he
Speaker 1: showed them where this little tent setup was, Charles was gone.
Speaker 1: He had bandoned his setup and fled. Unfortunately, he slipped
Speaker 1: through their fingers.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Okay, still hey, they were that damn close.
Speaker 1: But as I mentioned earlier, in this case, Charles was
Speaker 1: a kleptomaniac, meaning he could not help but steal, and
Speaker 1: his downfall came when he attempted to shoplift once again.
Speaker 1: It was the exact same day that that young boy
Speaker 1: had spotted him. Charles entered the department store in Calgary, Alberta.
Speaker 1: On July sixth, nineteen eighty five, Charles was caught stealing
Speaker 1: a can of salmon and some few other items, reportedly
Speaker 1: from a Hudson Bay store in Calgary.
Speaker 2: He needed supplies and food, I'm sure exactly.
Speaker 1: A security guard confronted him about what he was stealing,
Speaker 1: and Charles didn't like this, right of course, he tried
Speaker 1: to do as he did before, tried to run, but
Speaker 1: the guards stopped him, and during this confrontation, Charles pulled
Speaker 1: out a gun in an attempt to gain his freedom
Speaker 1: and the upper hand. The guard, though, wasn't gonna let
Speaker 1: this happen. Wow, Yeah, he didn't let him get away,
Speaker 1: and in the struggle, Charles managed to shoot the guard
Speaker 1: in the hand, but despite the injury, the guards still
Speaker 1: continued to put up a fight and managed to subdue
Speaker 1: Charles with the help of other store employees and bystanders
Speaker 1: on scene until police arrived.
Speaker 2: That is just like a one of a kind security guard,
Speaker 2: like kid, badass of the day, Like really just went
Speaker 2: above and beyond there.
Speaker 1: Right shot in the hand and he's like you motherfucker.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, because I feel like i'd be like, oh
Speaker 2: my gosh, mynd and he's just like, yeah, go time you.
Speaker 1: Get done fucked up now boy. So yeah, badass of
Speaker 1: the day right there to that security No kidding now.
Speaker 1: Once Calgary police arrived at the scene, they arrested Charles,
Speaker 1: who provided a false name, of course, but the authority
Speaker 1: soon realized who he actually was, so he was now
Speaker 1: held in custody in Canada. But before he was sent
Speaker 1: to the US to face a courtroom, he first had
Speaker 1: to serve time in Canadian jail for shoplifting and also
Speaker 1: assault charges, which would eventually us be four and a
Speaker 1: half years that he would be imprisoned in Canada. Okay,
Speaker 1: now before you was extradited to the US. This time,
Speaker 1: this four and a half years allowed prosecutors to build
Speaker 1: an intense case against Charles. They meticulously scoured their evidence
Speaker 1: and reports. Talk about the amount of evidence that there were.
Speaker 1: It was ridiculous at one point the I'll talk later,
Speaker 1: when the case had actually had to move from a
Speaker 1: court house to different court house and they had to
Speaker 1: actually hire like a like a semi truck to like
Speaker 1: move all the files and really like it was in
Speaker 1: fucking tense.
Speaker 2: Huh. So I was almost half thinking too that he
Speaker 2: would have committed suicide as well. So it's a bit
Speaker 2: surprising that he is like about facing all this stuff.
Speaker 1: No, he's spineless in a completely different way. And trust me,
Speaker 1: we'll touch on it. Okay, Yeah, No, Leonard is spineless
Speaker 1: in the fact that he doesn't want to face it.
Speaker 1: But Charles is spineless.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1: So the prosecutor prosecution team scoured the evidence, they built
Speaker 1: the team, they readied themselves for the day that Charles
Speaker 1: would be extradited back to the US and beyond US
Speaker 1: US soil. But four and a half years is a
Speaker 1: long time, and Charles did the same. He educated himself
Speaker 1: on everything he could do to evade the legal justice system.
Speaker 1: Now there is a little bit going on. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to dive into the issues on being extradited from
Speaker 1: Canada to USA because Canada actually held them. They didn't
Speaker 1: want to give him up because certain certain charges and
Speaker 1: certain what results the conviction and stuff. But long story short,
Speaker 1: both sides were ready for a war in this courtroom
Speaker 1: when he was finally extradited and a series of intense
Speaker 1: legal battles was about to commence, resulting in one of
Speaker 1: the most extensive and prolonged criminal proceedings in Californian history.
Speaker 2: That just makes me angry right there, though, because it's
Speaker 2: just such a waste of money.
Speaker 1: And you'll see why Charles is fucking cowardly and spineless
Speaker 1: in his own way, because he played dirty and he
Speaker 1: did whatever he could to delay his trial. Of course,
Speaker 1: Now why though, is fairly important, as I was just
Speaker 1: mentioning earlier with the extradition process, is he Charles facing
Speaker 1: these charges? It meant that if convicted, he would be
Speaker 1: given the death sentence. Okay, those were because of the
Speaker 1: charges were so much. Yeah, that was going to be
Speaker 1: the conviction. It was no doubt about it, which is
Speaker 1: why Canada was hesitant to give them back to the
Speaker 1: United States because there was a law prohibiting it unless
Speaker 1: the crime exceeded a certain amounts. There were some legal
Speaker 1: stuff going on back and forth, but it was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: yeah he did exceed it, so go for it sort
Speaker 1: of Thingeah. So, yeah, he played dirty because he knew
Speaker 1: he was facing the death sentence. So delaying the trial
Speaker 1: could literally mean life or death for this man, right,
Speaker 1: so he did everything in his power to drag it
Speaker 1: the fuck on. He employed a variety of tactics, but
Speaker 1: one of his primary strategies was to frequently change his
Speaker 1: legal counsel just as the trial was about to occur.
Speaker 2: Seriously, he would.
Speaker 1: Fire his attorneys and then he'd have to get new ones,
Speaker 1: and then the new attorneys would have to learn the case,
Speaker 1: and as I mentioned, there was like truckloads of case files,
Speaker 1: so it'd be up to two two and a half
Speaker 1: years that they would have to prepare themselves for the
Speaker 1: new trial again.
Speaker 2: WHOA seriously and.
Speaker 1: Simply firing his attorneys, he would buy himself two to
Speaker 1: two and a half years of life.
Speaker 2: Yes, holy free, free.
Speaker 1: And he did this multiple times. He cycled through multiple
Speaker 1: attorneys and lots of times he's like, yeah, they're not
Speaker 1: representing me well enough, so I need to get rid
Speaker 1: of them.
Speaker 2: You know. Okay, that doesn't make that's not fair though,
Speaker 2: because I could see maybe once, but if that happens again,
Speaker 2: it's like, no, well it's not allowed.
Speaker 1: It happened a few times.
Speaker 2: That's not okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, like I said, they had to develop
Speaker 1: new strategy, familiarizers themselves with the case before they're ready
Speaker 1: to go again. Now, another tactic he used to delay
Speaker 1: his tryout was filing an extensive number of legal motions.
Speaker 1: His defense team submitted numerous pre trial motions, including requests
Speaker 1: to suppress evidence, challenges to the admissibility of certain pieces
Speaker 1: of evidence, and motions for the change of venue. So
Speaker 1: one of the things of change of venue, because I said,
Speaker 1: I had to change venue and load up and like
Speaker 1: freaking trucks, right, So he would say, like, you know,
Speaker 1: many people, because of the media coverage, this is a
Speaker 1: bias jury. So we need to go somewhere else, which
Speaker 1: again worked and delayed the trial.
Speaker 2: Wow, this is mind blowing. I'm actually like, like I
Speaker 2: don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but a
Speaker 2: little bit like surprise for his will to live, I know,
Speaker 2: because like he no matter what, like he is going
Speaker 2: to just be spending the rest of his life in jail, right,
Speaker 2: I know. And it's so different than like his partner
Speaker 2: and crime there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I know he was not facing Both of
Speaker 1: them did not want to face the justice that would
Speaker 1: come down on them. In their own way, yeah, they
Speaker 1: did not want to face the consequences of their actions. No,
Speaker 1: all plead opposite ways, but in the they're doing the
Speaker 1: same thing. Now. Each of these motions required court hearings,
Speaker 1: legal arguments, significance along the process of the case. Like
Speaker 1: these combined efforts by Charles to manipulate the legal system contributed, sorry,
Speaker 1: contributed to an extraordinary length of time it took to
Speaker 1: bring this case trial and ultimately to verdict. So finally, though,
Speaker 1: enough was enough and a judge wasn't letting him get
Speaker 1: new attorneys or anything anymore. Just as you mentioned, the
Speaker 1: trial had to begin and in October of nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: eight in Orange County, California, thirty eighteen, let me say
Speaker 1: it again, thirteen years after his initial arrest, Charles was
Speaker 1: finally or sitting in the court facing justice. Thirteen years
Speaker 1: he managed to delay it.
Speaker 2: Oh man, I can't, I can't even that is just now.
Speaker 1: During the trial, the prosecution presented an overwhelming amount of
Speaker 1: evidence against him, including the chilling videotapes that showed him
Speaker 1: actively participating in the torture and abuse of the victims.
Speaker 1: These tapes were crucial in demonstrating his direct involvement in
Speaker 1: these crimes. Now they told of how he and Leonard
Speaker 1: would capture people and of course families as well. They
Speaker 1: would kill the men and the children, but leave the
Speaker 1: women alive to use them in the dubbed Project Miranda.
Speaker 1: They abused, raped, tortured, and eventually killed each and every
Speaker 1: one of them, humiliating them until they had their fill,
Speaker 1: their sick fill of fun, only to kill them and
Speaker 1: dispose of them on the cabin property. His defense, of course,
Speaker 1: shifted the blame onto Leonard Lake, saying that Charles was
Speaker 1: a follower who had been manipulated and dominated by Leonard,
Speaker 1: arguing that he had participated in the crimes only under
Speaker 1: the influence of coercion. They painted Leonard as the mastermind
Speaker 1: behind the gruesome Axe, which I mean, he very well
Speaker 1: seemed to be by all accounts if you ask me.
Speaker 1: In my opinion, Leonard seemed to be the one who
Speaker 1: put this all together. It's his property. He built this cabin,
Speaker 1: he had this project. Miranda was obsessed with book. Sure,
Speaker 1: he might be the mastermind.
Speaker 2: But this is too bad to to care really who
Speaker 2: the mastermind was.
Speaker 1: No, it doesn't matter. He's still involved.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to be involved in something this brutal is yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So.
Speaker 1: They also suggested that Charles was merely an unwilling participant
Speaker 1: caught up in Leonard's horrific schemes. Right now. The prosecution, however,
Speaker 1: effectively countered these claims by pointing to the evidence, particularly
Speaker 1: the video proof that showed Charles not only participated willingly,
Speaker 1: but also took sadistic pleasure from the acts he committed
Speaker 1: on tape.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's very clear this guy is also a
Speaker 2: ginormous piece of shit.
Speaker 1: Oh he is.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So.
Speaker 1: Luckily, the jury was not swayed by the defense arguments
Speaker 1: at all, and they rejected the attempt to minimize his
Speaker 1: responsibility by pinning the Blaine solely on Leonard. That was
Speaker 1: not the case. It's not just Leonard. You two are
Speaker 1: at fault and as a result, on February twenty fourth,
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, Charles NG was convicted of eleven counts
Speaker 1: of murder as well as charges of kidnapping, conspiracy, and burglary.
Speaker 1: Charles NG was sentenced to death in March of nineteen
Speaker 1: ninety nine. Since his conviction, Charles has done everything he
Speaker 1: can still to appeal that conviction.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, has this person not wasted enough time
Speaker 2: and money? I am getting just pissed sitting here listening
Speaker 2: to this.
Speaker 1: Thankfully, none of his appeals have succeeded. As far as
Speaker 1: I'm aware, Charles NG is still alive. He remains on
Speaker 1: death row in San Quentin State Prison in California.
Speaker 2: Huh. You know this is very interesting because also one
Speaker 2: of our plans is very upset about this too, because
Speaker 2: we have a vine that's like this whole time, been
Speaker 2: like looking like it's alive as it's trying to like
Speaker 2: vine onto something else. It's quite creepy. Actually, I've been
Speaker 2: watching and this is I've been getting upset.
Speaker 1: It's just feeding off the emotions.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it's creeping me out, and this
Speaker 2: whole case is creeping me out. And damn well that
Speaker 2: pretty well is the case. Okay, Well, I do have
Speaker 2: a question, and this is me really I should in
Speaker 2: all this, but like places in the States still do
Speaker 2: actively do the death penalty.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if they still convict of
Speaker 1: the death penalty, but I mean, if someone has the sentence,
Speaker 1: I think they can they can still follow it out.
Speaker 1: I would have to do the research on that, which
Speaker 1: I haven't, so I can't speak.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, because I feel like at this point
Speaker 2: he's probably he's probably going to just die of like
Speaker 2: natural causes I guess.
Speaker 1: Most likely of old age or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant, Like, yeah, well.
Speaker 1: The last thing to do on this case, because that
Speaker 1: is that's the case, But the last thing to do.
Speaker 1: Here is the confirmed list of victims of Leonard Lake
Speaker 1: and Charles ng and the confirmed list is as follows.
Speaker 1: The Ubbs family who met Leonard, threw an ad to
Speaker 1: rent out their video equipment, and never was seen from again.
Speaker 2: Seriously, so that is.
Speaker 1: Harvey Dubbs twenty nine years old, Deborah Dubbs thirty three
Speaker 1: years old and their son Sean Dubbs, who was one
Speaker 1: year old.
Speaker 2: Wow, just to rent out their equipment.
Speaker 1: Eh. Yeah. There was the Bond and O'Connor family who
Speaker 1: were neighbors of Leonard Lake. There was Lonnie Bond Junior,
Speaker 1: who was twenty seven years old, Brenda O'Connor who was
Speaker 1: nineteen years old, and their son, Lonnie Bond the Third,
Speaker 1: who was two years old. There was the couple Michael
Speaker 1: Carroll who was twenty three years old and a friend
Speaker 1: of Charles Ing and his girlfriend Kathleen Allen, who was
Speaker 1: eighteen years old. There was Paul Kostner who was thirty
Speaker 1: nine years old who was selling his car. Oh no,
Speaker 1: Robin Scott Stapley twenty six years old who was a
Speaker 1: friend and neighbor of Leonard Lake. Randy Johnson thirty four
Speaker 1: years old who was a former co worker of Charles Ing,
Speaker 1: Donald Lake thirty two years old. Who is who is
Speaker 1: Leonard Lake's younger brother, Clifford Pertineu who is twenty four
Speaker 1: years old, who's a former coworker of Charles Ng.
Speaker 2: Okay, sorry, did you see one of these is a
Speaker 2: brother related?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Like Leonard Lake's younger brother Donald Lake.
Speaker 2: Holy shit. Okay, yep, so that's a list. That's a list,
Speaker 2: huh that we know of that I almost like guarantee
Speaker 2: you there's more.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, luckily, some of those photos of the twenty
Speaker 1: one individuals that was found, those women who were found
Speaker 1: inside the cabin, some of them have been identified and
Speaker 1: are safe and alive thankfully.
Speaker 2: Holy shit, no kidding.
Speaker 1: I don't know the names of who. I just I
Speaker 1: was watching a documentary that was actually a good resource
Speaker 1: for my case, so thank you. Shout out to that documentary.
Speaker 1: But it's they talked about how yes, some of the
Speaker 1: women were identified and they were found safe, though I
Speaker 1: don't know how many, and I don't know who, huh.
Speaker 2: And they didn't they just like didn't discriminate too. It
Speaker 2: was just like kids whatever, Like they just didn't give
Speaker 2: a fuck who they were killing.
Speaker 1: Yep. But when they had a woman, they held them
Speaker 1: and they did what they wanted.
Speaker 2: And then and they did so they did what they
Speaker 2: wanted with this this lady, thinking that they would probably
Speaker 2: like let her go right Oh no, well that was
Speaker 2: the threat though, like you do what you want or
Speaker 2: you let us do what you want, we want, or
Speaker 2: you get killed. So then she would let them do that,
Speaker 2: but then she'd get killed anyway.
Speaker 1: As I don't know some of the video that I watched,
Speaker 1: the ultimatum was, we will treat you as nicely as
Speaker 1: we can within the threshold of being a prisoner, or
Speaker 1: you die.
Speaker 2: Oh man, Okay, that.
Speaker 1: Was the ultimatum, and I think I might have quoted
Speaker 1: them actually pretty pretty close on that. Within the threshold
Speaker 1: of being a prisoner, I think is exactly how they
Speaker 1: put it. Geez or yeah, death.
Speaker 2: Kind of sick bastard you have to be to do
Speaker 2: this to somebody.
Speaker 1: Well, and even worse too. Leonard had plans to expand
Speaker 1: his bunker and everything he wanted to do, like an
Speaker 1: underground system. Because there is a video that I watched
Speaker 1: of him. I think it's about fifteen minutes long, just
Speaker 1: like a vlog of him kind of talking, and he
Speaker 1: talks about how he wants to expand this and stuff
Speaker 1: and have this underground like network and just nasty. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I wonder if his ex knew.
Speaker 1: I kind of feel like, oh, she fucking knew.
Speaker 2: You think she did?
Speaker 1: She knew? Why would she kick them off? After the
Speaker 1: videotapes Wow.
Speaker 2: She was like, shit's getting real here and I don't
Speaker 2: really know what the fuck's going on, So like, you
Speaker 2: guys need to leave.
Speaker 1: Why would he have written that fucking letter.
Speaker 2: I can't even remember what the hell of letter had said.
Speaker 1: I got to go back to my other document here
Speaker 1: and pull.
Speaker 2: I don't know if she would have known to this extent.
Speaker 1: Oh, she fucking knew you. I know she knew. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, but like I cannot see
Speaker 1: her not knowing. It doesn't make sense to me that
Speaker 1: she would not fucking know.
Speaker 2: Huh, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Okay. So the suicide note or the letter he wrote
Speaker 1: to her, goes as quote, Dear Lynn, I love you,
Speaker 1: I forgive you. Freedom is better all sorry, freedom is
Speaker 1: better than all else. I leave it up to you
Speaker 1: to tell the law about the horrors of this house.
Speaker 1: She fucking knew?
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, huh. I mean anyone that I feel
Speaker 2: like knew anything about any of this shit is slightly
Speaker 2: guilty here.
Speaker 1: Oh no kidding, I agree, But it's.
Speaker 2: Like, how could you know something? Like there's just I
Speaker 2: don't care, like who the fuck that you are? Like
Speaker 2: you could be, like you could be you my best friend,
Speaker 2: I would if I knew something this extent, I don't
Speaker 2: think I could physically keep that in and like let
Speaker 2: that be happening. There's just no way. I don't think.
Speaker 2: I don't care who the fuck is Huh, I don't know.
Speaker 1: But yeah, she was not charged or convicted.
Speaker 2: Wow, no, interesting, No, she.
Speaker 1: Got away she I mean, there's no no evidence that
Speaker 1: she did anything.
Speaker 2: But what did he have to forgive her for?
Speaker 1: Hey, I don't know, leaving him? Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 1: It could be some mundane, stupid thing like that, or
Speaker 1: maybe they were just recently arguing over who fucking ate
Speaker 1: the last twinkie? And he's like, I forgive you it, socin,
Speaker 1: who knows, I.
Speaker 2: Would never forgive you for that. I actually haven't end
Speaker 2: a twinkie and I can't even remember the last I
Speaker 2: made a twinkie.
Speaker 1: That's probably a good thing.
Speaker 2: But anyway, my blood is just like boiling, and now
Speaker 2: we have to go to bed. Yeah, it's good luck
Speaker 2: to us.
Speaker 1: That's one way to end a night.
Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, no kidding, I gotta.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna polish off this bottle of wine before bed,
Speaker 1: because god dang, I need it.
Speaker 2: Hmmm. I mean sometimes I sometimes think this keeps you
Speaker 2: up at night? How can we end podcast on like
Speaker 2: a more fun note? But fuck, there's just no way.
Speaker 1: Man, No, how do you and like, how do you
Speaker 1: end a true crime pod podcast on a positive note?
Speaker 3: Me?
Speaker 2: I can't know, well because I almost am like gosh,
Speaker 2: like good luck to all you out there, like it's
Speaker 2: just like scary what kind of people are here? And
Speaker 2: also I think I'm keeping my vehicle for life because
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm going to be able to
Speaker 2: sell a used vehicle ever. Again, you can't.
Speaker 1: Wash your car, you can't sell your car.
Speaker 2: Like, I'm just like literally me, when I'm eighty years old,
Speaker 2: I'm going to be living in a fucking bubble. Probably hopefully,
Speaker 2: we can only hope.
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, I'd be down for that, You and me
Speaker 1: in a bubble with huskies and chickens and a cat.
Speaker 2: Oh, that sounds lovely. Would have to also have like
Speaker 2: a vegetable garden and stuff for like food and stuff.
Speaker 1: Right, we got to start in apiary too, so we
Speaker 1: can make need.
Speaker 2: Oh man, yes, sounds like the life. We're gonna be
Speaker 2: like little hermits.
Speaker 1: Man, Oh, I'm.
Speaker 2: Still releasing podcasts or.
Speaker 1: No, probably we're gonna be fun eighty years old, little
Speaker 1: hermits in the bush and just talking about some fucking
Speaker 1: horrific shit that people are doing out there in the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, we always at the end of this podcast,
Speaker 2: we always just go off here. But because we were
Speaker 2: talking the other day, I was like, well, how long
Speaker 2: can you be like a wedding photographer? Like how old
Speaker 2: can you be? Kind of thing? And then we were
Speaker 2: talking how old can you be like a true crime
Speaker 2: podcaster and stuff, and like physically probably quite some time.
Speaker 2: Your voice would probably change a bit, but not like,
Speaker 2: not until you're probably like your seventies. I'm thinking, yeah,
Speaker 2: but then you were almost like that, it's probably really cool.
Speaker 2: People might really like that.
Speaker 1: I mean picture just old Ben and Nicole just sipping
Speaker 1: some wine, sipping some drinks and just talking about true crime.
Speaker 1: I think that'd be awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it might be.
Speaker 1: My name's Ben and you're listening to wickeding Grim true
Speaker 1: crime podcast.
Speaker 2: Like, well, I feel like too, say, when we're eighty,
Speaker 2: shit's probably gonna be way worse in the world, to Matt,
Speaker 2: and then we'll be like back in our day, they
Speaker 2: did they only did this, you know, like, gosh, that
Speaker 2: is that's a dark thought right there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we thought John Wayne Casey was bad.
Speaker 2: Now this bullshit, Oh Lord help us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're really going off today apparently, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: end this here. We're gonna stop rambling. We appreciate you
Speaker 1: guys listening, especially if you got through all this this
Speaker 1: at the end. We hopefully you guys enjoy this though,
Speaker 1: Like I do want to take a quick moment to
Speaker 1: note these these rants at the end, like I enjoy
Speaker 1: just sitting here and yapping with you about this case.
Speaker 1: Hopefully you guys enjoy it too, because it's almost it
Speaker 1: is kind of like the way the way we unravel
Speaker 1: after it all, we vent a bit, we get some
Speaker 1: more laughs in, and it's it's that unravel moment.
Speaker 2: So maybe we do kind of end it sometimes in
Speaker 2: a positive way, and we do. Right, people are now
Speaker 2: picturing us in our eighties talking about you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's actually kind of a nice thought.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so hopefully you guys like it. We really enjoyed
Speaker 1: doing this, so thank you for being here, Thank you
Speaker 1: for supporting our show. We are an indie podcast. It's
Speaker 1: us who do everything. We don't have any overarching person
Speaker 1: overseeing it. It's us. I was gonna say it's just us,
Speaker 1: but Nicle gave me crap last time.
Speaker 2: For and some people agreed. I'm very behind on the
Speaker 2: Spotify comments, and some people agree when you say just
Speaker 2: like it's not always like a good.
Speaker 1: Thing, well it's not always a good thing. But I'm
Speaker 1: not saying in a negative context.
Speaker 2: Though, I know, but we're going to change that language,
Speaker 2: I think a bit.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, put it in this way. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: it's just us. I'm saying it's just us. There's no
Speaker 1: one else. It's us. To get that, but let's just
Speaker 1: not catch Okay, Well, it's Nicole and I only doing this.
Speaker 1: We've got this. There's no one else, and you guys
Speaker 1: are here supporting us, and because of that, we appreciate it.
Speaker 1: So thank you very much. If you'd like, don't forget
Speaker 1: to follow all the good.
Speaker 2: Stuff, you know, Yeah, you know, I like how you're
Speaker 2: talking to the camera that's not on. But anyway, until Friday,
Speaker 2: Until Friday, stay wicked.