WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Last episode, we talked about part one of Leonard Lake

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<v Speaker 1>and Charles ng. Today we continue that case with part two,

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<v Speaker 1>So please check out part one and get ready for

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<v Speaker 1>the rest of this case.

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<v Speaker 2>My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked

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<v Speaker 2>and Grim, a true crime podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>The following podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Material intend for a mature audience listener discretion.

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<v Speaker 3>Ad.

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<v Speaker 1>We just got wine. We've been wine all day, well

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<v Speaker 1>not all. We're on bottle number two, Okay, I've.

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<v Speaker 2>Am freaking like, Oh no, I guess I've had two

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<v Speaker 2>glasses of wine.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah you have.

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't moved on to the white like you have, though.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I'm halfway through the bottle of white. I

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<v Speaker 1>guess apparently. Good God, it's been a good lubricant for

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<v Speaker 1>the research on this case. I'm not gonna lie, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>lubercint eh, It's yes, it's a lubricant. Huh of the emotions,

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<v Speaker 1>you know.

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<v Speaker 2>That's one way to describe it. I am going to

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<v Speaker 2>just say we are, well, Ben is drinking. I haven't

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<v Speaker 2>got there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yet, have a wine glass right there.

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<v Speaker 2>But I was going to talk about the little straw

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<v Speaker 2>or is this little straw?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know shit, I think this.

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<v Speaker 2>Is Little Straw too. So Little Straw is in Kolonna.

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<v Speaker 2>It's one of my favorite freakin' wineries. It's so damn good.

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<v Speaker 1>No, this isn't sponsored. Nicole just actually likes their wine.

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<v Speaker 2>I actually just I don't know. I like little, kind

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<v Speaker 2>of smaller wineries and they're a little bit smaller. You're

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<v Speaker 2>drinking Tapestry and it's really good.

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<v Speaker 1>A little bit sweet for me, but it is pretty good.

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<v Speaker 1>I usually like a bit of a dryer wine.

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<v Speaker 2>But I guess it technically is in West Colonna. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>West Colonna, the Okanagan.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is a true Crown podcast, not a wine podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>We should probably stop talking wine. We're not wine connoisseurs,

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<v Speaker 1>at least I'm not.

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<v Speaker 2>All I know is enjoy it touche.

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<v Speaker 1>All I know is if it goes down good and

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<v Speaker 1>it helps me research a case, which it definitely did

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<v Speaker 1>on this one, because oh god, it's a doozy. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you remember what happened in this case?

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<v Speaker 2>To be brutally honest, I have no idea because since

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<v Speaker 2>then I have shot two weddings, god knows what else.

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<v Speaker 2>I've done lots of work and I barely remember.

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<v Speaker 1>So your recap I got you back. I got a

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<v Speaker 1>good recap. We're going to go over it. But before

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<v Speaker 1>we do the recap, we of course have to thank

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<v Speaker 1>our patroots. So we had two amazing people sign up

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<v Speaker 1>over on Patreon this week. We have Stacey Ray Daniels

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<v Speaker 1>and Sophia Shinn. Thank you very much. We're going to

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<v Speaker 1>be doing a lot on Patreon this week with getting

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<v Speaker 1>some input and we're prepping for a live over there

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<v Speaker 1>at the end of the month too, so very cool. Yeah. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>So let's dive into this. Are you ready because I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sure many people are listening to part one and diving

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<v Speaker 1>right into part two. Oh yeah, let's keep it short.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's get into this.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, we need to recap though.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so the recap in part one of the case

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<v Speaker 1>of Leonard Lake and Charles Saying, we discussed several things

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<v Speaker 1>and amongst them, we started with Charles and the shoplifting

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<v Speaker 1>from a lumber store, and that lumber store was South

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<v Speaker 1>City Lumber and Supply. Now, being a kleptomaniac, Charles couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>resist the urge to try and steal a table vice

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<v Speaker 1>that was valued at about seventy five dollars. Now, unfortunately

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<v Speaker 1>for him, he didn't get away with it. He was

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<v Speaker 1>approached about the shoplifting at the car and took off running,

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<v Speaker 1>while his friend Leonard Lake was left trying to talk

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<v Speaker 1>with police and resolve the issue.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Leonard though, was arrested when they found an illegally modified

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<v Speaker 1>rifle in the car, and Leonard, however, had an ace

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<v Speaker 1>up as sleeve for being arrested for just such an occasion.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, it's coming back a little.

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<v Speaker 1>While being held for questioning, officers return to the room, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>for him to be found on the floor convulsing and

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<v Speaker 1>was later pronounced.

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<v Speaker 2>Dead and he had left a note.

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<v Speaker 1>He did leave a note. Yes, Now, it was discovered

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<v Speaker 1>that Leonard had sewn cyanide tablets into the hem of

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<v Speaker 1>his clothes and took his own life. This was the

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<v Speaker 1>beginning of the officers diving into a rabbit hole of

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<v Speaker 1>these two men, and along the way they found several

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<v Speaker 1>connections between them and missing individuals, and the evidence just

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<v Speaker 1>keeps piling up. Officers performed a search of Leonard's cabin

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<v Speaker 1>in northern California with consent from his ex wife. They

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<v Speaker 1>did not have a warrant, so it was a consent search,

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<v Speaker 1>but when they found video equipment that belonged to a

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<v Speaker 1>family who had been missing for the past eleven months.

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<v Speaker 1>She immediately ended the consent search, kicking authorities off the property.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's where we left off.

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<v Speaker 2>Shit, And there was like a back shed or something,

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<v Speaker 2>right there was ominous but back shed that they were Well, it's.

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<v Speaker 1>Been described as many things. I'm going to continue calling

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<v Speaker 1>it a shed, most likely in this I think I've

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<v Speaker 1>described it a few different ways. But it's like a

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<v Speaker 1>like a bunker, a shed, like another little cat, it's

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<v Speaker 1>like a cinder block out building. Okay, so it's yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's because he was a bit of like a

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<v Speaker 1>they call it a prepper, which I touch on in

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<v Speaker 1>here a bit, and he like prepared for things like

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<v Speaker 1>survivalists and stuff like that. So we had this like

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<v Speaker 1>bunker for that sort of stuff too.

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<v Speaker 2>So honestly, like not a terrible idea.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's not, especially giving today's world and how the

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<v Speaker 1>economy is going. Yeah, like man, anyway, that's a whole

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<v Speaker 1>other topic.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is very much topic.

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<v Speaker 1>Trust me, I can go especially given the lubricants I've

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<v Speaker 1>been consuming today in this wine, I can go on

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<v Speaker 1>for a long time. Both that.

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<v Speaker 2>That's only I feel like it's a slight downfall of

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<v Speaker 2>tiny home living ish because you're kind of like you

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<v Speaker 2>can't really stalk up on food and stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>You can pick up and go at any time kind

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<v Speaker 1>of so long as you have a vehicle to tow it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>but let's get onto this. You ready for part two?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I am. It's not going to be good, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I remember, I'm remembering things, that's all right.

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<v Speaker 1>So authorities were walking off the property and they eyed

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<v Speaker 1>up that that outbuilding, the shed, the bunker, and they're

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<v Speaker 1>wondering what was inside there was padlocked. They couldn't search

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<v Speaker 1>anything else because the ex wife is like, hey, sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>you got to get out of here now. Given the

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<v Speaker 1>evidence that they had already obtained regarding Leonard and now

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<v Speaker 1>discovering this stolen video equipment within the property if you

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<v Speaker 1>remember that from last episode, because that's when you know

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<v Speaker 1>they found this.

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<v Speaker 2>And they phoned it in and stuff, right, yeah, match.

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<v Speaker 1>The serial numbers everything. Given this connection with the video equipment,

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<v Speaker 1>the police were able to obtain a search warrant and

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<v Speaker 1>return back to the cabin only a few hours later.

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<v Speaker 2>Nice, yeah, right on.

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<v Speaker 1>This time, they didn't need permission from anyone. With a

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<v Speaker 1>warrant in hand, they were able to search the property

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<v Speaker 1>to the fullest extend. Okay, one of the first things

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<v Speaker 1>they did was focus on the cinder block outbuilding that's shed.

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<v Speaker 2>They did like a spider sense about this shed head.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean it's a little bit ominous. It's like, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>what's in there? Right, So they didn't know what they

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<v Speaker 1>would find inside, and they worked their magic getting the

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<v Speaker 1>padlocks off because it was heavily locked. But once they

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<v Speaker 1>managed to get their way in and they opened it,

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<v Speaker 1>each investigator was holding their breath with the nerves of anticipation.

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<v Speaker 1>The inside didn't seem anything out of the ordinary at first. Leonard,

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<v Speaker 1>as I mentioned, was a bit of a prepper, meaning

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<v Speaker 1>someone who prepares for disasters, dire situations and of the world, etc.

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<v Speaker 1>And everyone has their own thing that they're prepping for,

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<v Speaker 1>so it prepping has different definitions within that. It could

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<v Speaker 1>be food, it could be gas. You could be prepping

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<v Speaker 1>they call it bug out bags, which is just a

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<v Speaker 1>bag to get up and leave in the case of

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<v Speaker 1>like a forest fire in our area, for example. So

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<v Speaker 1>it all depends on what you're quote prepping for. So

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<v Speaker 1>with him. Though, the inside didn't have many things that

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<v Speaker 1>was too out of the ordinary, outside of course a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of prepping stuff, but there was also tools

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<v Speaker 1>and stuff that you would actually generally find in a

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<v Speaker 1>shed like structure as well. However, the first thing that

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<v Speaker 1>they actually spotted out of the ordinary were twenty one

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<v Speaker 1>photos that were adorning the wall. Now, the photos were

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<v Speaker 1>of young women, some dressed some not. They didn't know

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<v Speaker 1>who they were or who the pictures were taken from,

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<v Speaker 1>like who took the pictures, but the investigators to them

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<v Speaker 1>it seemed like it could possibly be a trophy wall.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh jeez, that's disgusting.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. They also found a journal inside this shed, a

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<v Speaker 1>journal that was written by Leonard himself. Now, inside he

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<v Speaker 1>talked about many different things, and he obsessedly talked about

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<v Speaker 1>the book that he was really reading NonStop and basically

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<v Speaker 1>held like a bible to him the collector remember that

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<v Speaker 1>from last time, yeap. So he also had inserts in

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<v Speaker 1>here where he talked about something called quote Project Moran,

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<v Speaker 1>which was named after the woman in the book who

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<v Speaker 1>was captured. So Miranda was the woman in the book

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<v Speaker 1>who the individual was like obsessing with and wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>make her part of his butterfly collection.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, yeah, so he named this his project Project Miranda,

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<v Speaker 3>after Miranda from the book Oh Man. Okay, Now, I

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<v Speaker 3>didn't allude a lot to a project Miranda really wrote.

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<v Speaker 1>It really entailed. So authorities did keep searching, and they

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<v Speaker 1>searched not only of course, through the shed, but the

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<v Speaker 1>cabin as well though, and they were also spreading their

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<v Speaker 1>their search across the property, and I believe it was

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<v Speaker 1>about a third of an acre at this cabin was on. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>on this property they found two different cars, both belonging

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<v Speaker 1>to missing persons. Holy shit, it seemed all too easy

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<v Speaker 1>to make the assumptions that killings were taking place and

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<v Speaker 1>occurring at the hand of Leonard Lake. And if that

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<v Speaker 1>was the case, it wouldn't be far fetched to think

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<v Speaker 1>that bodies might be buried on this property as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Well. Honestly, when they opened the shed, I was thinking

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<v Speaker 2>that they were either was they're going to find someone

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<v Speaker 2>alive in there or bodies a body of sort or something. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>so I was surprised that they that they didn't.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, cadaver dogs were brought onto the scene because of

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<v Speaker 1>the assumption that, you know what, there could be bodies buried.

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<v Speaker 1>There could be someone here that we don't know of,

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<v Speaker 1>And so dogs are brought on the scene and they roamed,

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<v Speaker 1>they sniffed the property, you know, doing their job. It's dogs, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and they found several different sites where various fires had

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<v Speaker 1>been lit, which seemed to interest the dogs greatly. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the dogs in particular also found a bone,

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<v Speaker 1>a bone that investigators immediately knew was not animal and

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<v Speaker 1>identified as a human bone.

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<v Speaker 2>Holy shit, I mean not surprising.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this was officially no longer an execution of a

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<v Speaker 1>search warrant. Only three days later, after Leonard had actually

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<v Speaker 1>committed suicide, the cabin property was officially a crime.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And he knew that, he knew his time was here, hey, like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>he knew he was done.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's why he had that backup plan. Doublets.

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<v Speaker 2>That is just so interesting to just be living your

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<v Speaker 2>life doing something so terrible that you have to just

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<v Speaker 2>have this backup plan like this in case you get found.

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<v Speaker 1>I know, like that, just like fuck him for not

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<v Speaker 1>even facing what he did, you know, Yeah, like holy shit,

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<v Speaker 1>what a fucking coward.

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<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, actually yeah, that's yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So large crews of investigators in all different fields of expertise,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, came to the site to begin to process

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<v Speaker 1>the property. They sectioned it all off. They did, like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I don't know if it's like a grid

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<v Speaker 1>pattern or what exactly, most likely to my assumption, but

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<v Speaker 1>they sectioned it off and designated different areas for different

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<v Speaker 1>teams to begin their work. Now in the cinderblock shed,

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<v Speaker 1>they continued the investigation and it led them to uncover

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<v Speaker 1>some alarming things. They discovered a hidden door inside, not

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<v Speaker 1>noticeable at first if you didn't know it was there.

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<v Speaker 1>But after a while of searching and you know, due diligence,

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<v Speaker 1>it was discovered the door was located behind some wall

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<v Speaker 1>mounted shelves and once you kind of wiggled the shelves

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<v Speaker 1>a bit, the door began to pull free with the

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<v Speaker 1>shelves and it revealed a small room with a cot

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<v Speaker 1>behind it.

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<v Speaker 2>Whoa, okay, I was like, there has to be more

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<v Speaker 2>to this frickin shed. Holy shit.

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<v Speaker 1>And after further investigation on the hinges on this door

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<v Speaker 1>as well, it seemed that they were buckling and bending

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit, most likely from force from the inside.

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<v Speaker 2>No yeah, oh man, okay, well I just can only

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<v Speaker 2>I can only imagine like the chilling feeling that you

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<v Speaker 2>would just get when you discover like this shit, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't even know where my head would be, like I

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<v Speaker 1>like trying to put myself in the shoes of an investigator,

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<v Speaker 1>like discovering the door as one thing, but then the

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<v Speaker 1>second you open it up and see firsthand what the

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<v Speaker 1>fuck is back there, like holy.

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<v Speaker 2>Fuck, I don't I feel like you almost wouldn't even

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<v Speaker 2>be react like I mean, you would react emotionally, but

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<v Speaker 2>like you wouldn't because you're just there like trying to

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<v Speaker 2>solve this, you know, and you almost, like I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>take your emotions out of the picture, and it's just

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<v Speaker 2>like fax facts, right, because fair.

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<v Speaker 1>But I like for me, like my I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>if you will, like anxiety takes form and like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>when you get cold, you have the shivers. I have

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<v Speaker 1>like a ball of that like shivers, but it's like

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<v Speaker 1>so like so much smaller than shivers. It's like jitters.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like a ball of it in my chest and

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<v Speaker 1>I can just like trying to do my job, but

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<v Speaker 1>I know that would be fucking going nuts.

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<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, I mean maybe you would have coping mechanisms

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<v Speaker 2>of dealing with that, right, I guess or you do it.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty sure that's why we see like old school detectives,

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<v Speaker 1>just like drunks, never sleeping like you know, just obsessing.

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<v Speaker 1>And I guess that's probably why. So Within behind this door, though,

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<v Speaker 1>there was another door that led to a small closet area.

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<v Speaker 1>So this closet area seemed as if it were almost

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<v Speaker 1>a makeshift makeshift bathroom with toilet paper hanging in the wall.

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<v Speaker 1>But the thing that stood out the most within these

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<v Speaker 1>two rooms was a single piece of paper that was

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<v Speaker 1>fixed to the wall. It was a list of rules,

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<v Speaker 1>and the rules raid read as such. Number one, I

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<v Speaker 1>must always be ready to service my master. I must

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<v Speaker 1>be clean, brushed, and made up with my cell neat.

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<v Speaker 1>Number two, I must never speak unless spoken to, unless

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<v Speaker 1>in bed. I must never look my master in the eye,

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<v Speaker 1>but must keep my eyes downcast. Number three, I must

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<v Speaker 1>never show my disrespect, either verbally or silent. I must

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<v Speaker 1>never cross my arms or legs in front of my body,

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<v Speaker 1>or clench my fists, and unless eating, must always keep

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<v Speaker 1>my lips parted. Four I must be obedient completely and

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<v Speaker 1>at all things I must obey immediately and without question

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<v Speaker 1>or comment. Number five. I must always be quiet when

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<v Speaker 1>locked in my cell. Number six. I must remember and

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<v Speaker 1>obey any additional rules told to me. I must understand

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<v Speaker 1>that any disobedience, any pain, trouble, or annoyance caused by

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<v Speaker 1>me to my master will be grounds for punishment.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I'm feeling my glass of wine here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, rightfully, So see why I said it was good

297
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:39.879
<v Speaker 1>lubricant for research on this, Because holy.

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<v Speaker 2>Fat person is a nasty motherfucker. Yeah, that is like

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<v Speaker 2>a I cannot even fathom someone being able to just

300
00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.200
<v Speaker 2>come up with this list, like you are literally out

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<v Speaker 2>of your mind. I'm sorry, but like you are, Yeah,

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00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:58.320
<v Speaker 2>and be to just be in that position and be

303
00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:02.799
<v Speaker 2>having someone like doing, Oh my god, I just can't.

304
00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:06.960
<v Speaker 2>I can't even like that. I just yeah, I'm about

305
00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:07.679
<v Speaker 2>to say things.

306
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:10.200
<v Speaker 1>I shouldn't if you want to say it, well.

307
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:13.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm just like I don't even know, Like I would

308
00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:14.159
<v Speaker 2>almost just want to die.

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00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:16.679
<v Speaker 1>To be honest, I can't blame you in that situation.

310
00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:20.919
<v Speaker 1>I really can't. Yeah, Like the list of demands, they're

311
00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:24.039
<v Speaker 1>brutal to read. I like, don't get me wrong, it

312
00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:26.879
<v Speaker 1>took me two takes to get through that, and it

313
00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.679
<v Speaker 1>was clear that Leonard was holding these individuals hostage here,

314
00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:33.200
<v Speaker 1>there's no doubt about that, right, But the questions are

315
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:36.360
<v Speaker 1>who for how long? And what was their fate in

316
00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:39.320
<v Speaker 1>the end, because they're not in there now, all of

317
00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:40.440
<v Speaker 1>this is still unclear.

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<v Speaker 2>Gosh, what a disgusting piece of shit.

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00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:48.159
<v Speaker 1>Now, Unfortunately, further processing and forensic analysis of this room

320
00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:52.000
<v Speaker 1>in this shed yielded no evidence as far as fingerprints

321
00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:57.759
<v Speaker 1>or DNA really had been meticulously cleaned top two bottom.

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00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:01.279
<v Speaker 2>That's like, really, like, how would you even do that?

323
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:02.679
<v Speaker 2>You think you'd miss something?

324
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.000
<v Speaker 1>I know, But no, there's nothing.

325
00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:07.279
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

326
00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:10.559
<v Speaker 1>Now, the search of the cabin also because we're in

327
00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:12.319
<v Speaker 1>the shed here right now, we're going back to the

328
00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:16.680
<v Speaker 1>cabin itself. The cabin also revealed some disturbing new evidence.

329
00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:21.519
<v Speaker 1>Among all the possessions, items, and clutter inside, the investigators

330
00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:25.559
<v Speaker 1>found a spew series of videotapes. Now, noting back to

331
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.319
<v Speaker 1>last episode, we discussed the bed in the cabin having

332
00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:31.480
<v Speaker 1>holes in the posts floor seeming like they were used

333
00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:33.799
<v Speaker 1>to tie or hold a person down there on the bed,

334
00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:36.240
<v Speaker 1>and there was also a video camera that was set

335
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:40.440
<v Speaker 1>up pointed to the bed, So investigators were curious what

336
00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.680
<v Speaker 1>they might actually find on these videotapes. Were they used

337
00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.400
<v Speaker 1>in the camera, Were they potentially used in a crime,

338
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:49.039
<v Speaker 1>or they just you know, someone's harmless sex tape. Who knows.

339
00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:51.400
<v Speaker 1>We don't know, right, but the investigators are like, there

340
00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:53.519
<v Speaker 1>could potentially be some damning evidence on this.

341
00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:56.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I think we know at this point.

342
00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:59.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So they played them and none of them were

343
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:01.519
<v Speaker 1>prepared for what they found.

344
00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:02.519
<v Speaker 2>Oh no.

345
00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:07.839
<v Speaker 1>On these tapes, it showed women being held and bound.

346
00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:11.599
<v Speaker 1>They were often sitting in a chair with Leonard explaining

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<v Speaker 1>to them that they are going to be held and

348
00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.920
<v Speaker 1>that they are going to do as he pleases. He

349
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:23.559
<v Speaker 1>isn't the only one, though, man quickly identified as Charles

350
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:27.559
<v Speaker 1>ng is also present on these tapes. Now, Charles is

351
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:30.000
<v Speaker 1>the man who ran in the very first episode from

352
00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:32.960
<v Speaker 1>after those shoplifting charges and he took off.

353
00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:35.319
<v Speaker 2>And so they don't have him at this point, right.

354
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.559
<v Speaker 1>They currently don't. He's on the run. This is only

355
00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:41.119
<v Speaker 1>three days later after that he took off, he got away.

356
00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:46.319
<v Speaker 1>They had Leonard, he gave them Charles his name, wrote

357
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<v Speaker 1>that suicide letter to his ex wife, took the cyanide tablet.

358
00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.599
<v Speaker 1>And now they're investigating the cabin and they found proof

359
00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:55.759
<v Speaker 1>to tie Charles to this cabin as well. Now on

360
00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:59.960
<v Speaker 1>these tapes. Wow, because before Charles was just a shot

361
00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.079
<v Speaker 1>uplifting friend, right, you know, it.

362
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:06.279
<v Speaker 2>Just doesn't even seem real. It doesn't even seem real

363
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.240
<v Speaker 2>that someone would be could like even do something like

364
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:10.160
<v Speaker 2>this to another humor.

365
00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:12.519
<v Speaker 1>Oh well, I haven't even really described what they're actually

366
00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:13.200
<v Speaker 1>doing on these tapes.

367
00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:15.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, I know, but my mind is obviously going. But

368
00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:18.119
<v Speaker 2>even just to capture someone, to sit them down and

369
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:20.240
<v Speaker 2>to tell them this is what they're doing now, and

370
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:21.640
<v Speaker 2>it's just like shit.

371
00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:24.799
<v Speaker 1>These women are being told to obey and do as

372
00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:27.759
<v Speaker 1>they're told, things like they're going to cook, they're going

373
00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:30.799
<v Speaker 1>to clean, and they're going to fuck when called upon. Wow,

374
00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:33.079
<v Speaker 1>they do not wish to do these things, then they

375
00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:36.559
<v Speaker 1>will swiftly be killed and that You can watch some

376
00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:38.200
<v Speaker 1>of these tapes. There's not a whole lot of it

377
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.480
<v Speaker 1>out there, but there are some clips and it's fucking it.

378
00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:45.839
<v Speaker 1>Got this, I know, But I think that they were

379
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:49.599
<v Speaker 1>released probably to the public and like for case purposes

380
00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:54.279
<v Speaker 1>or evidence purposes, I don't know, but this leads me

381
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:56.359
<v Speaker 1>to tie this case in a similar fashion to the

382
00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:57.000
<v Speaker 1>toy box skin.

383
00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was I think I did the toy box killer. Yeah,

384
00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:06.680
<v Speaker 2>I've never been the same since that day that I

385
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:08.039
<v Speaker 2>researched that. Holy shit.

386
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:12.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now, continuing in these videos, their clothes that these

387
00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:15.000
<v Speaker 1>women are being worn, that they're wearing, they're being cut

388
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:17.160
<v Speaker 1>off from their bodies with a knife. So the women

389
00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.279
<v Speaker 1>are sitting there, they're tied, the cameras rolling on them.

390
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:22.359
<v Speaker 1>They're being told you will do these things or you

391
00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:25.240
<v Speaker 1>will die. And then one of them walks up and

392
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:29.440
<v Speaker 1>begins cutting their clothes off with a knife, leaving them nude,

393
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.599
<v Speaker 1>or at least mostly nude, and at the mercy of

394
00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:36.799
<v Speaker 1>their captors. Now, one woman is seen asking for her

395
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:38.279
<v Speaker 1>baby repeatedly.

396
00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, are you kidding me?

397
00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:43.720
<v Speaker 1>But Leonard tells her it's not her baby anymore and

398
00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:44.759
<v Speaker 1>he has given it away.

399
00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:52.680
<v Speaker 2>Holy shit, so like a new mom. Yeah, that is

400
00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:53.880
<v Speaker 2>a new level of evil.

401
00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:57.440
<v Speaker 1>It is well, I mean, the fucking psychological torture alone

402
00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:03.880
<v Speaker 1>in this is unfathomable. So yeah. Now. Processing of the

403
00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:08.480
<v Speaker 1>property outside the buildings, too, brought up more overwhelming amounts

404
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:12.640
<v Speaker 1>of concerning evidence. There were several burial sites found where

405
00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:16.960
<v Speaker 1>possessions from missing individuals were stashed and buried, all of

406
00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:19.519
<v Speaker 1>which were of course taken into evidence. So many of

407
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:21.559
<v Speaker 1>them were like, hey, you know, there's some like loose

408
00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:24.279
<v Speaker 1>kind of dirt here. It's obviously something's been buried. And

409
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:27.920
<v Speaker 1>there's things like you know, clothing or whatever being buried,

410
00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:31.880
<v Speaker 1>possessions from like people's homes buried, whatever it was. There's

411
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:34.160
<v Speaker 1>a lot of shit being buried in several different sites

412
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:36.240
<v Speaker 1>of property, Like I can I can't even get into

413
00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:41.400
<v Speaker 1>the amount of shit that was found. It's just it's overwhelming.

414
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:45.119
<v Speaker 2>So like they went about hiding or going about hiding things,

415
00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:48.519
<v Speaker 2>but not really too. I mean, I guess if they

416
00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:50.319
<v Speaker 2>knew people were going to be on the property, like

417
00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:53.000
<v Speaker 2>they aren't police or whatever, they'd end up finding this thing.

418
00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:56.039
<v Speaker 2>So they hit it, but not very well really.

419
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:58.640
<v Speaker 1>They hit it. Whereas if no one knows, no one's

420
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:02.559
<v Speaker 1>going to know. Yeah, but is for someone to stumble

421
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.119
<v Speaker 1>upon one little thing and the whole the gas up,

422
00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:09.720
<v Speaker 1>which is exactly why Leonard had the backup of the

423
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:12.359
<v Speaker 1>Cyanide tablet, because all it takes is one fucking piece

424
00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:14.559
<v Speaker 1>to fall out of place, yea, the whole thing comes

425
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:18.240
<v Speaker 1>crumbling down, and that one fucking thing was then being

426
00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:19.880
<v Speaker 1>stopped in a shoplifting.

427
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:22.279
<v Speaker 2>Event well, yeah, and he knew. I feel like you

428
00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:24.559
<v Speaker 2>can only be a monster for so long. Like these

429
00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:28.160
<v Speaker 2>people do generally end up getting caught. Like it's just

430
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.240
<v Speaker 2>it's not something that they get away with most people,

431
00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:33.599
<v Speaker 2>I don't think, right like you do get caught eventually.

432
00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:37.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, these guys are definitely about to get caught.

433
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:42.440
<v Speaker 1>So on the property outside Buried there was also the

434
00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:46.599
<v Speaker 1>discovery of two bodies that were wrapped in sleeping bags

435
00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:50.759
<v Speaker 1>and found. They both seem to be gagged and handcuffed

436
00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:54.559
<v Speaker 1>and were later identified as Lonnie Bond Junior and Robin

437
00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Scott Stapley now Robin or sorry Lonnie was the boyfriend

438
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:02.240
<v Speaker 1>of Brenda O'Connor. Together they lived lived in a cabin

439
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:07.079
<v Speaker 1>nearby Leonard's cabin. They along with their two year old son,

440
00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:12.480
<v Speaker 1>had been missing for about two months. Oh man, now

441
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:16.759
<v Speaker 1>Robin Scott Stapeley who went by the name Scott, so

442
00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:19.839
<v Speaker 1>I'll be referring to him as as Scott. Now Scott

443
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:21.960
<v Speaker 1>was also a neighbor of Leonards and a friend of his,

444
00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:24.799
<v Speaker 1>and he had been missing for about two months as well.

445
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:29.680
<v Speaker 1>Now Scott's ID was found in Leonard's possession already. In fact,

446
00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:31.759
<v Speaker 1>while he was still alive because when he first talked

447
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:34.200
<v Speaker 1>to the officers and he tried to identify himself and

448
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.960
<v Speaker 1>gave the ID that he did not match. That was

449
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:42.400
<v Speaker 1>the ID he gave. Okay, I remember from first.

450
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:47.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, wow, it's surprising that there they're like people that

451
00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:49.319
<v Speaker 2>are like neighbors and close by and stuff.

452
00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:52.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, and that's the thing too, it's you have like

453
00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:55.039
<v Speaker 1>you can you only have so many neighbors, right, Neighbors

454
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:57.880
<v Speaker 1>are missing here, neighbors are missing there. How did he

455
00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:00.480
<v Speaker 1>not get questioned about this yet or any search come, like,

456
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:00.920
<v Speaker 1>you know.

457
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:04.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, really that's like too close to home.

458
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:09.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So the whole grounds on this property were being

459
00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:12.240
<v Speaker 1>combed for more remains. With the discovery of two bodies, Like, okay,

460
00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:15.359
<v Speaker 1>we have two grave sites here, two people who are buried,

461
00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:17.400
<v Speaker 1>two people who are killed and buried. There's got to

462
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:19.240
<v Speaker 1>be some more, Like what are the odds of it

463
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:21.440
<v Speaker 1>just being these two that we'veore stumbled across. There's got

464
00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:28.759
<v Speaker 1>to be some more remains. Though no intact bodies were uncovered,

465
00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:31.960
<v Speaker 1>the amount of remains that did come to the surface

466
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:35.960
<v Speaker 1>was staggering. Now, as I already mentioned, there were burned

467
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.640
<v Speaker 1>sights in the property. It was obvious that remains were

468
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:43.119
<v Speaker 1>being disposed of in other ways other than just burials. Now,

469
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:46.400
<v Speaker 1>especially since cadaver dogs had also uncovered a single solo bone,

470
00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:49.720
<v Speaker 1>they knew the chances of them finding more bone fragments.

471
00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:53.960
<v Speaker 1>It was basically a shot in the dark. But it's like,

472
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:56.160
<v Speaker 1>hit that wall with this dart in the dark, you're

473
00:24:56.200 --> 00:24:58.720
<v Speaker 1>going to right, It's like, yes, it's just there's no

474
00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:01.240
<v Speaker 1>doubt in their mind, and they were, of course right.

475
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:04.720
<v Speaker 1>So many people were scouring every inch of this property

476
00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:07.400
<v Speaker 1>on their hands and knees during the investigation, raaking through

477
00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:10.519
<v Speaker 1>the grass and dirts with their bare hands looking for

478
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:16.200
<v Speaker 1>bone fragments. As a result, hundreds and I mean hundreds

479
00:25:16.359 --> 00:25:20.200
<v Speaker 1>of bone fragments were discovered in various sizes, from the

480
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:21.960
<v Speaker 1>size of a nickel or dime to that of like

481
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:24.480
<v Speaker 1>a chicken bone or even a little bit bigger. And

482
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:27.319
<v Speaker 1>it all added up to over ten pounds of bone

483
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:28.920
<v Speaker 1>fragments that were collected.

484
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:30.279
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

485
00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:35.319
<v Speaker 1>Hey, they believed would just have discovered around five different victims,

486
00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:38.519
<v Speaker 1>but estimates and how many there actually were on the

487
00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:41.720
<v Speaker 1>property ran as high as a potential count of twenty

488
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:42.559
<v Speaker 1>to twenty five.

489
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:45.839
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, okay, I knew it was going to be high,

490
00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:47.319
<v Speaker 2>but that's high.

491
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:48.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it is that just.

492
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:50.559
<v Speaker 2>Like the way you described that too. Just like so,

493
00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:53.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I know it's like done an organized fashion

494
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:56.400
<v Speaker 2>and stuff, but just like so frantic, right, like just

495
00:25:56.440 --> 00:25:59.599
<v Speaker 2>searching for whatever pieces and bones and stuff that you

496
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:00.759
<v Speaker 2>can find, Like, oh.

497
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:02.240
<v Speaker 1>My, well, that's what they're doing. And I'm pretty sure

498
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:04.240
<v Speaker 1>in something like this, like they're quite literally doing like

499
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:08.200
<v Speaker 1>an excavation, right, Like it's think like Jurassic Park, they

500
00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:10.279
<v Speaker 1>do a grid fashion and it's like here's your grid

501
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:12.839
<v Speaker 1>like search, and I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they

502
00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:14.799
<v Speaker 1>were doing because they were they were going through it

503
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:15.519
<v Speaker 1>with their hands.

504
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So and you feel like there could even be

505
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:21.839
<v Speaker 2>things deeper or something too or write.

506
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:25.960
<v Speaker 1>Oh very possible. I mean, how can you fully excavate

507
00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:29.000
<v Speaker 1>like a third of an acre to like you don't

508
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:30.960
<v Speaker 1>know how deep and where what?

509
00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:33.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't even know if you can really.

510
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:35.279
<v Speaker 1>No, And even if you do, it's going to take

511
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:39.000
<v Speaker 1>so long unless you're using equipment, which is just going

512
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:40.559
<v Speaker 1>to ruin the site and you're not going to find

513
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:42.799
<v Speaker 1>anything anyways. Right, you have to do it by hand,

514
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:44.000
<v Speaker 1>you have to do it carefully, you have to do

515
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:49.319
<v Speaker 1>it slowly. Now investigators knew that they had to find Charles.

516
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:52.519
<v Speaker 1>At this point, he was no longer just a shoplifter.

517
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:54.880
<v Speaker 1>There was video proof that tied him to the disappearance

518
00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:57.960
<v Speaker 1>of several individuals, and he was quickly put at the

519
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:01.119
<v Speaker 1>top of the I'm sorry, I put on the top

520
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:05.720
<v Speaker 1>ten FBI's most wanted list. Now. Thankfully because of this,

521
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:09.039
<v Speaker 1>there was quite a bit of news and media coverage

522
00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:12.440
<v Speaker 1>on the case, specifically around his name of course, right,

523
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:16.039
<v Speaker 1>but there was a lot spreading both nationwide and worldwide,

524
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:18.279
<v Speaker 1>and authorities were able to rely in the public's help

525
00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:23.480
<v Speaker 1>in locating him. Soon, a witness reported seeing Charles get

526
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:27.599
<v Speaker 1>on a bus and headed for Toronto, Canada. Now, as

527
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:30.920
<v Speaker 1>I mentioned in last one, he did have a citizenship

528
00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:33.480
<v Speaker 1>in Canada, which made it very easy for him to

529
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:34.200
<v Speaker 1>flee the country.

530
00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Right. I was just like, go away, we don't want

531
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:37.359
<v Speaker 2>you here.

532
00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:41.319
<v Speaker 1>So authorities were able to learn that Charles had a

533
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:44.480
<v Speaker 1>sister who lived in Toronto, Okay, and they believe that,

534
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:47.200
<v Speaker 1>of course he's probably going to head there seek some

535
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:50.559
<v Speaker 1>refuge with his family hide out, right, But after watching

536
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:53.240
<v Speaker 1>outside her house for several days and nights, it was

537
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:55.920
<v Speaker 1>clear that he did not intend heading there because he

538
00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:57.000
<v Speaker 1>never showed up.

539
00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:59.960
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, yeah, I don't get her involved in this, Shita.

540
00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:03.319
<v Speaker 1>So after trying to find him, tracking him down, the

541
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:07.079
<v Speaker 1>trail went cold and it left investigators wondering where he went.

542
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:09.359
<v Speaker 1>But at the same time, they knew it was only

543
00:28:09.400 --> 00:28:12.200
<v Speaker 1>a matter of time until he resurfaced.

544
00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. Well yeah, when you're at the point where

545
00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:16.960
<v Speaker 2>you have this many people looking for you, you know

546
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:18.599
<v Speaker 2>it's going to happen exactly.

547
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:21.480
<v Speaker 1>Like, you can't stay hidden forever, and the only way

548
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:23.559
<v Speaker 1>to do so is like you're going to like a

549
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:26.279
<v Speaker 1>third world country or something like that. And like if

550
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:28.799
<v Speaker 1>you're on FBI's most wanted list right now, like good

551
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:33.799
<v Speaker 1>luck flying or you know, totally now. Approximately one month later,

552
00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:36.359
<v Speaker 1>oh that long one month?

553
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:39.240
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, I don't even know what's in one month.

554
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:41.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm assuming he's found, but geez, that's a long time.

555
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:43.680
<v Speaker 1>That's a long time, you think.

556
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:46.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I thought he would have been found like a

557
00:28:46.400 --> 00:28:47.079
<v Speaker 2>couple of days.

558
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:50.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well it was one month later in Calgary, Alberta.

559
00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:53.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, he's close a well close to us.

560
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:54.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's what I mean.

561
00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:58.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you need a point of reference for anyone listening

562
00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:01.440
<v Speaker 1>out there used to wear Edmonton.

563
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:05.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, close to where we live. We don't live in Edmonton,

564
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:07.440
<v Speaker 2>but like the province next to this, Alberta.

565
00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:11.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're about an eight nine hour drive away from Calgary, Alberta.

566
00:29:12.119 --> 00:29:14.640
<v Speaker 1>But anyways, in Calgary. About a month later, a young

567
00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:17.240
<v Speaker 1>boy was riding his bike through a park. He was

568
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:19.400
<v Speaker 1>playing and enjoying the great outdoors like any kid in

569
00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:22.319
<v Speaker 1>the eighties would right now, As he explored the area,

570
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:25.720
<v Speaker 1>he came across a tent shelter set up in a

571
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:30.160
<v Speaker 1>forested section of the park, and there amongst it, the

572
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:35.039
<v Speaker 1>boy spotted a man. Now he recognized this man from

573
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:36.559
<v Speaker 1>wanted posters that he had seen.

574
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:40.279
<v Speaker 2>Whoa what an observant little boy, it was Charles Ing.

575
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.039
<v Speaker 2>Huh Yeah, how old was this kid? Sorry? Ten or so?

576
00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:46.039
<v Speaker 1>I don't know exactly. He was just a young boy.

577
00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:47.640
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, for some reason I was ink in ten,

578
00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:48.839
<v Speaker 2>but like, gosh, he could have.

579
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:50.279
<v Speaker 1>Been ten, he could have been thirteen. I'm not a

580
00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:51.759
<v Speaker 1>certain age like a.

581
00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:53.000
<v Speaker 2>Kid would even you know know.

582
00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:57.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but after seeing this guy and recognizing him, the

583
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:01.000
<v Speaker 1>boy quickly hopped back on his bike and took and

584
00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:02.880
<v Speaker 1>he reported what he seen to officers.

585
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:06.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, get the fuck out of there, man, No kidding, right.

586
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:08.559
<v Speaker 1>So officers then had the boy lead him back to

587
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:11.200
<v Speaker 1>where he spotted Charles, and so he did. But by

588
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:13.119
<v Speaker 1>the time they arrived back in the park and he

589
00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:17.079
<v Speaker 1>showed them where this little tent setup was, Charles was gone.

590
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:23.559
<v Speaker 1>He had bandoned his setup and fled. Unfortunately, he slipped

591
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:24.640
<v Speaker 1>through their fingers.

592
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:29.240
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh. Okay, still hey, they were that damn close.

593
00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:33.759
<v Speaker 1>But as I mentioned earlier, in this case, Charles was

594
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:39.160
<v Speaker 1>a kleptomaniac, meaning he could not help but steal, and

595
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:42.880
<v Speaker 1>his downfall came when he attempted to shoplift once again.

596
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.319
<v Speaker 1>It was the exact same day that that young boy

597
00:30:46.359 --> 00:30:50.000
<v Speaker 1>had spotted him. Charles entered the department store in Calgary, Alberta.

598
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:54.599
<v Speaker 1>On July sixth, nineteen eighty five, Charles was caught stealing

599
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:57.680
<v Speaker 1>a can of salmon and some few other items, reportedly

600
00:30:57.880 --> 00:30:59.680
<v Speaker 1>from a Hudson Bay store in Calgary.

601
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:02.599
<v Speaker 2>He needed supplies and food, I'm sure exactly.

602
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:05.759
<v Speaker 1>A security guard confronted him about what he was stealing,

603
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:10.640
<v Speaker 1>and Charles didn't like this, right of course, he tried

604
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:13.079
<v Speaker 1>to do as he did before, tried to run, but

605
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:16.559
<v Speaker 1>the guards stopped him, and during this confrontation, Charles pulled

606
00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:19.160
<v Speaker 1>out a gun in an attempt to gain his freedom

607
00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:23.799
<v Speaker 1>and the upper hand. The guard, though, wasn't gonna let

608
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.720
<v Speaker 1>this happen. Wow, Yeah, he didn't let him get away,

609
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:30.000
<v Speaker 1>and in the struggle, Charles managed to shoot the guard

610
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.039
<v Speaker 1>in the hand, but despite the injury, the guards still

611
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:35.880
<v Speaker 1>continued to put up a fight and managed to subdue

612
00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:39.319
<v Speaker 1>Charles with the help of other store employees and bystanders

613
00:31:39.319 --> 00:31:42.640
<v Speaker 1>on scene until police arrived.

614
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:45.640
<v Speaker 2>That is just like a one of a kind security guard,

615
00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:48.359
<v Speaker 2>like kid, badass of the day, Like really just went

616
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:49.559
<v Speaker 2>above and beyond there.

617
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:52.200
<v Speaker 1>Right shot in the hand and he's like you motherfucker.

618
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:54.119
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, because I feel like i'd be like, oh

619
00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:58.039
<v Speaker 2>my gosh, mynd and he's just like, yeah, go time you.

620
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:02.599
<v Speaker 1>Get done fucked up now boy. So yeah, badass of

621
00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:05.680
<v Speaker 1>the day right there to that security No kidding now.

622
00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:09.079
<v Speaker 1>Once Calgary police arrived at the scene, they arrested Charles,

623
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:12.319
<v Speaker 1>who provided a false name, of course, but the authority

624
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:17.079
<v Speaker 1>soon realized who he actually was, so he was now

625
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:20.440
<v Speaker 1>held in custody in Canada. But before he was sent

626
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:23.640
<v Speaker 1>to the US to face a courtroom, he first had

627
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:26.759
<v Speaker 1>to serve time in Canadian jail for shoplifting and also

628
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:31.640
<v Speaker 1>assault charges, which would eventually us be four and a

629
00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:34.240
<v Speaker 1>half years that he would be imprisoned in Canada. Okay,

630
00:32:35.079 --> 00:32:40.240
<v Speaker 1>now before you was extradited to the US. This time,

631
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:42.880
<v Speaker 1>this four and a half years allowed prosecutors to build

632
00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:47.960
<v Speaker 1>an intense case against Charles. They meticulously scoured their evidence

633
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:51.599
<v Speaker 1>and reports. Talk about the amount of evidence that there were.

634
00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:56.279
<v Speaker 1>It was ridiculous at one point the I'll talk later,

635
00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:58.720
<v Speaker 1>when the case had actually had to move from a

636
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:01.880
<v Speaker 1>court house to different court house and they had to

637
00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:03.839
<v Speaker 1>actually hire like a like a semi truck to like

638
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:07.640
<v Speaker 1>move all the files and really like it was in

639
00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:08.599
<v Speaker 1>fucking tense.

640
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:11.880
<v Speaker 2>Huh. So I was almost half thinking too that he

641
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:15.960
<v Speaker 2>would have committed suicide as well. So it's a bit

642
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:19.279
<v Speaker 2>surprising that he is like about facing all this stuff.

643
00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:22.119
<v Speaker 1>No, he's spineless in a completely different way. And trust me,

644
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:25.279
<v Speaker 1>we'll touch on it. Okay, Yeah, No, Leonard is spineless

645
00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:27.240
<v Speaker 1>in the fact that he doesn't want to face it.

646
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:28.839
<v Speaker 1>But Charles is spineless.

647
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Okay.

648
00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:34.559
<v Speaker 1>So the prosecutor prosecution team scoured the evidence, they built

649
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:36.680
<v Speaker 1>the team, they readied themselves for the day that Charles

650
00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:39.640
<v Speaker 1>would be extradited back to the US and beyond US

651
00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:42.960
<v Speaker 1>US soil. But four and a half years is a

652
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:47.440
<v Speaker 1>long time, and Charles did the same. He educated himself

653
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:51.200
<v Speaker 1>on everything he could do to evade the legal justice system.

654
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:54.640
<v Speaker 1>Now there is a little bit going on. I'm not

655
00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:57.480
<v Speaker 1>going to dive into the issues on being extradited from

656
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Canada to USA because Canada actually held them. They didn't

657
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:05.319
<v Speaker 1>want to give him up because certain certain charges and

658
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:09.360
<v Speaker 1>certain what results the conviction and stuff. But long story short,

659
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:12.039
<v Speaker 1>both sides were ready for a war in this courtroom

660
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:15.039
<v Speaker 1>when he was finally extradited and a series of intense

661
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:17.639
<v Speaker 1>legal battles was about to commence, resulting in one of

662
00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:24.519
<v Speaker 1>the most extensive and prolonged criminal proceedings in Californian history.

663
00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:29.000
<v Speaker 2>That just makes me angry right there, though, because it's

664
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:30.360
<v Speaker 2>just such a waste of money.

665
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:36.519
<v Speaker 1>And you'll see why Charles is fucking cowardly and spineless

666
00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:39.119
<v Speaker 1>in his own way, because he played dirty and he

667
00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:43.039
<v Speaker 1>did whatever he could to delay his trial. Of course,

668
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.400
<v Speaker 1>Now why though, is fairly important, as I was just

669
00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:51.639
<v Speaker 1>mentioning earlier with the extradition process, is he Charles facing

670
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:55.679
<v Speaker 1>these charges? It meant that if convicted, he would be

671
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:59.360
<v Speaker 1>given the death sentence. Okay, those were because of the

672
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:02.000
<v Speaker 1>charges were so much. Yeah, that was going to be

673
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:04.360
<v Speaker 1>the conviction. It was no doubt about it, which is

674
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:08.679
<v Speaker 1>why Canada was hesitant to give them back to the

675
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:11.880
<v Speaker 1>United States because there was a law prohibiting it unless

676
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:14.679
<v Speaker 1>the crime exceeded a certain amounts. There were some legal

677
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:17.159
<v Speaker 1>stuff going on back and forth, but it was like, Okay,

678
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:19.559
<v Speaker 1>yeah he did exceed it, so go for it sort

679
00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:22.760
<v Speaker 1>of Thingeah. So, yeah, he played dirty because he knew

680
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:27.039
<v Speaker 1>he was facing the death sentence. So delaying the trial

681
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:31.599
<v Speaker 1>could literally mean life or death for this man, right,

682
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:34.840
<v Speaker 1>so he did everything in his power to drag it

683
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:39.159
<v Speaker 1>the fuck on. He employed a variety of tactics, but

684
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:42.000
<v Speaker 1>one of his primary strategies was to frequently change his

685
00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:47.280
<v Speaker 1>legal counsel just as the trial was about to occur.

686
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:49.719
<v Speaker 2>Seriously, he would.

687
00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:52.159
<v Speaker 1>Fire his attorneys and then he'd have to get new ones,

688
00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:55.199
<v Speaker 1>and then the new attorneys would have to learn the case,

689
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:58.480
<v Speaker 1>and as I mentioned, there was like truckloads of case files,

690
00:35:58.719 --> 00:36:00.679
<v Speaker 1>so it'd be up to two two and a half

691
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:04.400
<v Speaker 1>years that they would have to prepare themselves for the

692
00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:05.400
<v Speaker 1>new trial again.

693
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:08.320
<v Speaker 2>WHOA seriously and.

694
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:10.519
<v Speaker 1>Simply firing his attorneys, he would buy himself two to

695
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:12.000
<v Speaker 1>two and a half years of life.

696
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:15.639
<v Speaker 2>Yes, holy free, free.

697
00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:19.199
<v Speaker 1>And he did this multiple times. He cycled through multiple

698
00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:21.639
<v Speaker 1>attorneys and lots of times he's like, yeah, they're not

699
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:23.199
<v Speaker 1>representing me well enough, so I need to get rid

700
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:23.480
<v Speaker 1>of them.

701
00:36:23.559 --> 00:36:25.840
<v Speaker 2>You know. Okay, that doesn't make that's not fair though,

702
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:29.159
<v Speaker 2>because I could see maybe once, but if that happens again,

703
00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:30.719
<v Speaker 2>it's like, no, well it's not allowed.

704
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:31.920
<v Speaker 1>It happened a few times.

705
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:32.840
<v Speaker 2>That's not okay.

706
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:35.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and yeah, like I said, they had to develop

707
00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:38.920
<v Speaker 1>new strategy, familiarizers themselves with the case before they're ready

708
00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:41.559
<v Speaker 1>to go again. Now, another tactic he used to delay

709
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:45.440
<v Speaker 1>his tryout was filing an extensive number of legal motions.

710
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:49.519
<v Speaker 1>His defense team submitted numerous pre trial motions, including requests

711
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:54.480
<v Speaker 1>to suppress evidence, challenges to the admissibility of certain pieces

712
00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:57.559
<v Speaker 1>of evidence, and motions for the change of venue. So

713
00:36:57.559 --> 00:36:59.440
<v Speaker 1>one of the things of change of venue, because I said,

714
00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:01.800
<v Speaker 1>I had to change venue and load up and like

715
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.639
<v Speaker 1>freaking trucks, right, So he would say, like, you know,

716
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:08.599
<v Speaker 1>many people, because of the media coverage, this is a

717
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:12.079
<v Speaker 1>bias jury. So we need to go somewhere else, which

718
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:14.360
<v Speaker 1>again worked and delayed the trial.

719
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:19.320
<v Speaker 2>Wow, this is mind blowing. I'm actually like, like I

720
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:20.760
<v Speaker 2>don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but a

721
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.880
<v Speaker 2>little bit like surprise for his will to live, I know,

722
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:26.440
<v Speaker 2>because like he no matter what, like he is going

723
00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:28.880
<v Speaker 2>to just be spending the rest of his life in jail, right,

724
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:32.320
<v Speaker 2>I know. And it's so different than like his partner

725
00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:33.039
<v Speaker 2>and crime there.

726
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:37.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I know he was not facing Both of

727
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:40.960
<v Speaker 1>them did not want to face the justice that would

728
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.280
<v Speaker 1>come down on them. In their own way, yeah, they

729
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:46.719
<v Speaker 1>did not want to face the consequences of their actions. No,

730
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:49.920
<v Speaker 1>all plead opposite ways, but in the they're doing the

731
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:54.320
<v Speaker 1>same thing. Now. Each of these motions required court hearings,

732
00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:58.000
<v Speaker 1>legal arguments, significance along the process of the case. Like

733
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:02.639
<v Speaker 1>these combined efforts by Charles to manipulate the legal system contributed, sorry,

734
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:06.239
<v Speaker 1>contributed to an extraordinary length of time it took to

735
00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:10.320
<v Speaker 1>bring this case trial and ultimately to verdict. So finally, though,

736
00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:12.639
<v Speaker 1>enough was enough and a judge wasn't letting him get

737
00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:16.320
<v Speaker 1>new attorneys or anything anymore. Just as you mentioned, the

738
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:19.599
<v Speaker 1>trial had to begin and in October of nineteen ninety

739
00:38:19.639 --> 00:38:24.119
<v Speaker 1>eight in Orange County, California, thirty eighteen, let me say

740
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:28.400
<v Speaker 1>it again, thirteen years after his initial arrest, Charles was

741
00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:34.519
<v Speaker 1>finally or sitting in the court facing justice. Thirteen years

742
00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:35.679
<v Speaker 1>he managed to delay it.

743
00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, I can't, I can't even that is just now.

744
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:46.239
<v Speaker 1>During the trial, the prosecution presented an overwhelming amount of

745
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:49.480
<v Speaker 1>evidence against him, including the chilling videotapes that showed him

746
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:52.239
<v Speaker 1>actively participating in the torture and abuse of the victims.

747
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:56.199
<v Speaker 1>These tapes were crucial in demonstrating his direct involvement in

748
00:38:56.239 --> 00:39:00.800
<v Speaker 1>these crimes. Now they told of how he and Leonard

749
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:06.440
<v Speaker 1>would capture people and of course families as well. They

750
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:09.679
<v Speaker 1>would kill the men and the children, but leave the

751
00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:14.480
<v Speaker 1>women alive to use them in the dubbed Project Miranda.

752
00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:19.960
<v Speaker 1>They abused, raped, tortured, and eventually killed each and every

753
00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:23.400
<v Speaker 1>one of them, humiliating them until they had their fill,

754
00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:26.840
<v Speaker 1>their sick fill of fun, only to kill them and

755
00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:31.000
<v Speaker 1>dispose of them on the cabin property. His defense, of course,

756
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:35.599
<v Speaker 1>shifted the blame onto Leonard Lake, saying that Charles was

757
00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:39.119
<v Speaker 1>a follower who had been manipulated and dominated by Leonard,

758
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:42.199
<v Speaker 1>arguing that he had participated in the crimes only under

759
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:46.519
<v Speaker 1>the influence of coercion. They painted Leonard as the mastermind

760
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:48.840
<v Speaker 1>behind the gruesome Axe, which I mean, he very well

761
00:39:49.039 --> 00:39:51.119
<v Speaker 1>seemed to be by all accounts if you ask me.

762
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:53.320
<v Speaker 1>In my opinion, Leonard seemed to be the one who

763
00:39:53.639 --> 00:39:56.719
<v Speaker 1>put this all together. It's his property. He built this cabin,

764
00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:00.639
<v Speaker 1>he had this project. Miranda was obsessed with book. Sure,

765
00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:02.679
<v Speaker 1>he might be the mastermind.

766
00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:06.679
<v Speaker 2>But this is too bad to to care really who

767
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:07.719
<v Speaker 2>the mastermind was.

768
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:09.880
<v Speaker 1>No, it doesn't matter. He's still involved.

769
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, to be involved in something this brutal is yeah. Yeah.

770
00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:13.599
<v Speaker 3>So.

771
00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:16.960
<v Speaker 1>They also suggested that Charles was merely an unwilling participant

772
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:22.440
<v Speaker 1>caught up in Leonard's horrific schemes. Right now. The prosecution, however,

773
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:27.000
<v Speaker 1>effectively countered these claims by pointing to the evidence, particularly

774
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:31.360
<v Speaker 1>the video proof that showed Charles not only participated willingly,

775
00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:35.440
<v Speaker 1>but also took sadistic pleasure from the acts he committed

776
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:36.480
<v Speaker 1>on tape.

777
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:39.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, it's very clear this guy is also a

778
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:40.760
<v Speaker 2>ginormous piece of shit.

779
00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:42.280
<v Speaker 1>Oh he is.

780
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:43.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So.

781
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:46.840
<v Speaker 1>Luckily, the jury was not swayed by the defense arguments

782
00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:50.199
<v Speaker 1>at all, and they rejected the attempt to minimize his

783
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:53.320
<v Speaker 1>responsibility by pinning the Blaine solely on Leonard. That was

784
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:56.239
<v Speaker 1>not the case. It's not just Leonard. You two are

785
00:40:56.320 --> 00:40:59.559
<v Speaker 1>at fault and as a result, on February twenty fourth,

786
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:04.400
<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety nine, Charles NG was convicted of eleven counts

787
00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:08.840
<v Speaker 1>of murder as well as charges of kidnapping, conspiracy, and burglary.

788
00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Charles NG was sentenced to death in March of nineteen

789
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:19.239
<v Speaker 1>ninety nine. Since his conviction, Charles has done everything he

790
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:22.599
<v Speaker 1>can still to appeal that conviction.

791
00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:26.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh, has this person not wasted enough time

792
00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:29.480
<v Speaker 2>and money? I am getting just pissed sitting here listening

793
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:29.719
<v Speaker 2>to this.

794
00:41:31.159 --> 00:41:36.679
<v Speaker 1>Thankfully, none of his appeals have succeeded. As far as

795
00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:40.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm aware, Charles NG is still alive. He remains on

796
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:43.320
<v Speaker 1>death row in San Quentin State Prison in California.

797
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:48.559
<v Speaker 2>Huh. You know this is very interesting because also one

798
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:51.599
<v Speaker 2>of our plans is very upset about this too, because

799
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:53.760
<v Speaker 2>we have a vine that's like this whole time, been

800
00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:56.280
<v Speaker 2>like looking like it's alive as it's trying to like

801
00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:59.480
<v Speaker 2>vine onto something else. It's quite creepy. Actually, I've been

802
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:01.280
<v Speaker 2>watching and this is I've been getting upset.

803
00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:03.639
<v Speaker 1>It's just feeding off the emotions.

804
00:42:03.719 --> 00:42:05.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, but it's creeping me out, and this

805
00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:08.679
<v Speaker 2>whole case is creeping me out. And damn well that

806
00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:14.159
<v Speaker 2>pretty well is the case. Okay, Well, I do have

807
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:17.159
<v Speaker 2>a question, and this is me really I should in

808
00:42:17.239 --> 00:42:20.280
<v Speaker 2>all this, but like places in the States still do

809
00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:22.679
<v Speaker 2>actively do the death penalty.

810
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:25.960
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I don't know if they still convict of

811
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:28.400
<v Speaker 1>the death penalty, but I mean, if someone has the sentence,

812
00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:30.079
<v Speaker 1>I think they can they can still follow it out.

813
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:32.039
<v Speaker 1>I would have to do the research on that, which

814
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:33.400
<v Speaker 1>I haven't, so I can't speak.

815
00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:35.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know, because I feel like at this point

816
00:42:35.639 --> 00:42:38.800
<v Speaker 2>he's probably he's probably going to just die of like

817
00:42:39.719 --> 00:42:42.280
<v Speaker 2>natural causes I guess.

818
00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Most likely of old age or whatever it is.

819
00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:47.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant, Like, yeah, well.

820
00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:49.280
<v Speaker 1>The last thing to do on this case, because that

821
00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:51.159
<v Speaker 1>is that's the case, But the last thing to do.

822
00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:54.679
<v Speaker 1>Here is the confirmed list of victims of Leonard Lake

823
00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:59.000
<v Speaker 1>and Charles ng and the confirmed list is as follows.

824
00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:03.400
<v Speaker 1>The Ubbs family who met Leonard, threw an ad to

825
00:43:03.639 --> 00:43:07.760
<v Speaker 1>rent out their video equipment, and never was seen from again.

826
00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:10.320
<v Speaker 2>Seriously, so that is.

827
00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:13.599
<v Speaker 1>Harvey Dubbs twenty nine years old, Deborah Dubbs thirty three

828
00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:17.599
<v Speaker 1>years old and their son Sean Dubbs, who was one

829
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:18.079
<v Speaker 1>year old.

830
00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Wow, just to rent out their equipment.

831
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:25.239
<v Speaker 1>Eh. Yeah. There was the Bond and O'Connor family who

832
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:28.920
<v Speaker 1>were neighbors of Leonard Lake. There was Lonnie Bond Junior,

833
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:31.960
<v Speaker 1>who was twenty seven years old, Brenda O'Connor who was

834
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:34.719
<v Speaker 1>nineteen years old, and their son, Lonnie Bond the Third,

835
00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:41.039
<v Speaker 1>who was two years old. There was the couple Michael

836
00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:43.360
<v Speaker 1>Carroll who was twenty three years old and a friend

837
00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:47.280
<v Speaker 1>of Charles Ing and his girlfriend Kathleen Allen, who was

838
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:51.960
<v Speaker 1>eighteen years old. There was Paul Kostner who was thirty

839
00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:57.079
<v Speaker 1>nine years old who was selling his car. Oh no,

840
00:43:57.639 --> 00:44:00.280
<v Speaker 1>Robin Scott Stapley twenty six years old who was a

841
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:03.920
<v Speaker 1>friend and neighbor of Leonard Lake. Randy Johnson thirty four

842
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:06.239
<v Speaker 1>years old who was a former co worker of Charles Ing,

843
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.920
<v Speaker 1>Donald Lake thirty two years old. Who is who is

844
00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:14.760
<v Speaker 1>Leonard Lake's younger brother, Clifford Pertineu who is twenty four

845
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:17.440
<v Speaker 1>years old, who's a former coworker of Charles Ng.

846
00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:19.599
<v Speaker 2>Okay, sorry, did you see one of these is a

847
00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:21.039
<v Speaker 2>brother related?

848
00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:23.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Like Leonard Lake's younger brother Donald Lake.

849
00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:32.119
<v Speaker 2>Holy shit. Okay, yep, so that's a list. That's a list,

850
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:37.159
<v Speaker 2>huh that we know of that I almost like guarantee

851
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:37.840
<v Speaker 2>you there's more.

852
00:44:38.119 --> 00:44:41.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now, luckily, some of those photos of the twenty

853
00:44:41.559 --> 00:44:44.360
<v Speaker 1>one individuals that was found, those women who were found

854
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:46.599
<v Speaker 1>inside the cabin, some of them have been identified and

855
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:48.719
<v Speaker 1>are safe and alive thankfully.

856
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:50.280
<v Speaker 2>Holy shit, no kidding.

857
00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:52.679
<v Speaker 1>I don't know the names of who. I just I

858
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:55.880
<v Speaker 1>was watching a documentary that was actually a good resource

859
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:58.360
<v Speaker 1>for my case, so thank you. Shout out to that documentary.

860
00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:01.400
<v Speaker 1>But it's they talked about how yes, some of the

861
00:45:01.440 --> 00:45:03.800
<v Speaker 1>women were identified and they were found safe, though I

862
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:06.800
<v Speaker 1>don't know how many, and I don't know who, huh.

863
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:09.039
<v Speaker 2>And they didn't they just like didn't discriminate too. It

864
00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:11.440
<v Speaker 2>was just like kids whatever, Like they just didn't give

865
00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:12.480
<v Speaker 2>a fuck who they were killing.

866
00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:15.760
<v Speaker 1>Yep. But when they had a woman, they held them

867
00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:18.519
<v Speaker 1>and they did what they wanted.

868
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:22.679
<v Speaker 2>And then and they did so they did what they

869
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:26.760
<v Speaker 2>wanted with this this lady, thinking that they would probably

870
00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:29.760
<v Speaker 2>like let her go right Oh no, well that was

871
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:31.920
<v Speaker 2>the threat though, like you do what you want or

872
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:34.320
<v Speaker 2>you let us do what you want, we want, or

873
00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:37.039
<v Speaker 2>you get killed. So then she would let them do that,

874
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:38.519
<v Speaker 2>but then she'd get killed anyway.

875
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:42.079
<v Speaker 1>As I don't know some of the video that I watched,

876
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:46.800
<v Speaker 1>the ultimatum was, we will treat you as nicely as

877
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:50.000
<v Speaker 1>we can within the threshold of being a prisoner, or

878
00:45:50.039 --> 00:45:50.480
<v Speaker 1>you die.

879
00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:54.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, Okay, that.

880
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:56.559
<v Speaker 1>Was the ultimatum, and I think I might have quoted

881
00:45:56.599 --> 00:45:59.719
<v Speaker 1>them actually pretty pretty close on that. Within the threshold

882
00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:01.760
<v Speaker 1>of being a prisoner, I think is exactly how they

883
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:04.679
<v Speaker 1>put it. Geez or yeah, death.

884
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:07.559
<v Speaker 2>Kind of sick bastard you have to be to do

885
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:08.400
<v Speaker 2>this to somebody.

886
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:11.559
<v Speaker 1>Well, and even worse too. Leonard had plans to expand

887
00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:14.199
<v Speaker 1>his bunker and everything he wanted to do, like an

888
00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:17.519
<v Speaker 1>underground system. Because there is a video that I watched

889
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:19.760
<v Speaker 1>of him. I think it's about fifteen minutes long, just

890
00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:22.039
<v Speaker 1>like a vlog of him kind of talking, and he

891
00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:24.920
<v Speaker 1>talks about how he wants to expand this and stuff

892
00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:31.400
<v Speaker 1>and have this underground like network and just nasty. Yeah.

893
00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:33.159
<v Speaker 2>I wonder if his ex knew.

894
00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:35.320
<v Speaker 1>I kind of feel like, oh, she fucking knew.

895
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:36.760
<v Speaker 2>You think she did?

896
00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:39.039
<v Speaker 1>She knew? Why would she kick them off? After the

897
00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:40.360
<v Speaker 1>videotapes Wow.

898
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:42.400
<v Speaker 2>She was like, shit's getting real here and I don't

899
00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:43.880
<v Speaker 2>really know what the fuck's going on, So like, you

900
00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:44.639
<v Speaker 2>guys need to leave.

901
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:46.679
<v Speaker 1>Why would he have written that fucking letter.

902
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:48.920
<v Speaker 2>I can't even remember what the hell of letter had said.

903
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:51.000
<v Speaker 1>I got to go back to my other document here

904
00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:51.960
<v Speaker 1>and pull.

905
00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:54.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if she would have known to this extent.

906
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:58.159
<v Speaker 1>Oh, she fucking knew you. I know she knew. Well,

907
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:00.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I don't know, but like I cannot see

908
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:03.400
<v Speaker 1>her not knowing. It doesn't make sense to me that

909
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:04.559
<v Speaker 1>she would not fucking know.

910
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:07.280
<v Speaker 2>Huh, I don't know.

911
00:47:07.719 --> 00:47:11.199
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So the suicide note or the letter he wrote

912
00:47:11.199 --> 00:47:14.119
<v Speaker 1>to her, goes as quote, Dear Lynn, I love you,

913
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:17.960
<v Speaker 1>I forgive you. Freedom is better all sorry, freedom is

914
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:21.079
<v Speaker 1>better than all else. I leave it up to you

915
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:24.039
<v Speaker 1>to tell the law about the horrors of this house.

916
00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:27.159
<v Speaker 1>She fucking knew?

917
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:32.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, okay, huh. I mean anyone that I feel

918
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:37.079
<v Speaker 2>like knew anything about any of this shit is slightly

919
00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:37.800
<v Speaker 2>guilty here.

920
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Oh no kidding, I agree, But it's.

921
00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Like, how could you know something? Like there's just I

922
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:45.079
<v Speaker 2>don't care, like who the fuck that you are? Like

923
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:48.199
<v Speaker 2>you could be, like you could be you my best friend,

924
00:47:48.679 --> 00:47:52.559
<v Speaker 2>I would if I knew something this extent, I don't

925
00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:55.639
<v Speaker 2>think I could physically keep that in and like let

926
00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:58.039
<v Speaker 2>that be happening. There's just no way. I don't think.

927
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:02.199
<v Speaker 2>I don't care who the fuck is Huh, I don't know.

928
00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:04.800
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, she was not charged or convicted.

929
00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:08.320
<v Speaker 2>Wow, no, interesting, No, she.

930
00:48:08.320 --> 00:48:11.519
<v Speaker 1>Got away she I mean, there's no no evidence that

931
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:12.559
<v Speaker 1>she did anything.

932
00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:15.599
<v Speaker 2>But what did he have to forgive her for?

933
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:19.840
<v Speaker 1>Hey, I don't know, leaving him? Maybe I don't know.

934
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:22.719
<v Speaker 1>It could be some mundane, stupid thing like that, or

935
00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:26.119
<v Speaker 1>maybe they were just recently arguing over who fucking ate

936
00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:28.760
<v Speaker 1>the last twinkie? And he's like, I forgive you it, socin,

937
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:29.719
<v Speaker 1>who knows, I.

938
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:33.000
<v Speaker 2>Would never forgive you for that. I actually haven't end

939
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:35.039
<v Speaker 2>a twinkie and I can't even remember the last I

940
00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:35.880
<v Speaker 2>made a twinkie.

941
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:37.079
<v Speaker 1>That's probably a good thing.

942
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:40.599
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, my blood is just like boiling, and now

943
00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:43.199
<v Speaker 2>we have to go to bed. Yeah, it's good luck

944
00:48:43.239 --> 00:48:43.559
<v Speaker 2>to us.

945
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:46.000
<v Speaker 1>That's one way to end a night.

946
00:48:46.119 --> 00:48:48.280
<v Speaker 2>Hey, yeah, no kidding, I gotta.

947
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:50.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna polish off this bottle of wine before bed,

948
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:52.559
<v Speaker 1>because god dang, I need it.

949
00:48:53.199 --> 00:48:58.800
<v Speaker 2>Hmmm. I mean sometimes I sometimes think this keeps you

950
00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:00.800
<v Speaker 2>up at night? How can we end podcast on like

951
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:03.920
<v Speaker 2>a more fun note? But fuck, there's just no way.

952
00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:07.400
<v Speaker 1>Man, No, how do you and like, how do you

953
00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:10.920
<v Speaker 1>end a true crime pod podcast on a positive note?

954
00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:11.159
<v Speaker 3>Me?

955
00:49:11.320 --> 00:49:13.360
<v Speaker 2>I can't know, well because I almost am like gosh,

956
00:49:13.519 --> 00:49:15.880
<v Speaker 2>like good luck to all you out there, like it's

957
00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:18.039
<v Speaker 2>just like scary what kind of people are here? And

958
00:49:18.159 --> 00:49:20.599
<v Speaker 2>also I think I'm keeping my vehicle for life because

959
00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:21.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if I'm going to be able to

960
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:24.519
<v Speaker 2>sell a used vehicle ever. Again, you can't.

961
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:26.519
<v Speaker 1>Wash your car, you can't sell your car.

962
00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:29.480
<v Speaker 2>Like, I'm just like literally me, when I'm eighty years old,

963
00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:33.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be living in a fucking bubble. Probably hopefully,

964
00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:35.559
<v Speaker 2>we can only hope.

965
00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:38.760
<v Speaker 1>Really, yeah, I'd be down for that, You and me

966
00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:41.719
<v Speaker 1>in a bubble with huskies and chickens and a cat.

967
00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:43.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that sounds lovely. Would have to also have like

968
00:49:44.039 --> 00:49:47.239
<v Speaker 2>a vegetable garden and stuff for like food and stuff.

969
00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:49.039
<v Speaker 1>Right, we got to start in apiary too, so we

970
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:49.639
<v Speaker 1>can make need.

971
00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, yes, sounds like the life. We're gonna be

972
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:54.360
<v Speaker 2>like little hermits.

973
00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:55.559
<v Speaker 1>Man, Oh, I'm.

974
00:49:55.480 --> 00:49:57.159
<v Speaker 2>Still releasing podcasts or.

975
00:49:57.119 --> 00:50:01.239
<v Speaker 1>No, probably we're gonna be fun eighty years old, little

976
00:50:01.280 --> 00:50:03.639
<v Speaker 1>hermits in the bush and just talking about some fucking

977
00:50:03.639 --> 00:50:06.280
<v Speaker 1>horrific shit that people are doing out there in the world.

978
00:50:06.679 --> 00:50:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, we always at the end of this podcast,

979
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:10.840
<v Speaker 2>we always just go off here. But because we were

980
00:50:10.840 --> 00:50:13.159
<v Speaker 2>talking the other day, I was like, well, how long

981
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:15.119
<v Speaker 2>can you be like a wedding photographer? Like how old

982
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:17.079
<v Speaker 2>can you be? Kind of thing? And then we were

983
00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:19.000
<v Speaker 2>talking how old can you be like a true crime

984
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:23.840
<v Speaker 2>podcaster and stuff, and like physically probably quite some time.

985
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:26.400
<v Speaker 2>Your voice would probably change a bit, but not like,

986
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:31.360
<v Speaker 2>not until you're probably like your seventies. I'm thinking, yeah,

987
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:33.639
<v Speaker 2>but then you were almost like that, it's probably really cool.

988
00:50:33.639 --> 00:50:34.760
<v Speaker 2>People might really like that.

989
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:39.239
<v Speaker 1>I mean picture just old Ben and Nicole just sipping

990
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:42.440
<v Speaker 1>some wine, sipping some drinks and just talking about true crime.

991
00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:43.639
<v Speaker 1>I think that'd be awesome.

992
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:44.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it might be.

993
00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:49.840
<v Speaker 1>My name's Ben and you're listening to wickeding Grim true

994
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:50.920
<v Speaker 1>crime podcast.

995
00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:53.920
<v Speaker 2>Like, well, I feel like too, say, when we're eighty,

996
00:50:54.239 --> 00:50:56.719
<v Speaker 2>shit's probably gonna be way worse in the world, to Matt,

997
00:50:56.800 --> 00:50:58.559
<v Speaker 2>and then we'll be like back in our day, they

998
00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:03.800
<v Speaker 2>did they only did this, you know, like, gosh, that

999
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:06.079
<v Speaker 2>is that's a dark thought right there.

1000
00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:09.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we thought John Wayne Casey was bad.

1001
00:51:09.239 --> 00:51:13.159
<v Speaker 2>Now this bullshit, Oh Lord help us.

1002
00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:19.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're really going off today apparently, and we're gonna

1003
00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:21.920
<v Speaker 1>end this here. We're gonna stop rambling. We appreciate you

1004
00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:24.480
<v Speaker 1>guys listening, especially if you got through all this this

1005
00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:27.880
<v Speaker 1>at the end. We hopefully you guys enjoy this though,

1006
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:30.079
<v Speaker 1>Like I do want to take a quick moment to

1007
00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:33.960
<v Speaker 1>note these these rants at the end, like I enjoy

1008
00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:36.199
<v Speaker 1>just sitting here and yapping with you about this case.

1009
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:39.440
<v Speaker 1>Hopefully you guys enjoy it too, because it's almost it

1010
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:42.920
<v Speaker 1>is kind of like the way the way we unravel

1011
00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:45.800
<v Speaker 1>after it all, we vent a bit, we get some

1012
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:48.320
<v Speaker 1>more laughs in, and it's it's that unravel moment.

1013
00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:50.400
<v Speaker 2>So maybe we do kind of end it sometimes in

1014
00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:53.159
<v Speaker 2>a positive way, and we do. Right, people are now

1015
00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:56.519
<v Speaker 2>picturing us in our eighties talking about you know, yeah,

1016
00:51:57.320 --> 00:51:58.760
<v Speaker 2>that's actually kind of a nice thought.

1017
00:51:58.840 --> 00:52:01.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so hopefully you guys like it. We really enjoyed

1018
00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:03.639
<v Speaker 1>doing this, so thank you for being here, Thank you

1019
00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:06.480
<v Speaker 1>for supporting our show. We are an indie podcast. It's

1020
00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:10.719
<v Speaker 1>us who do everything. We don't have any overarching person

1021
00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:13.360
<v Speaker 1>overseeing it. It's us. I was gonna say it's just us,

1022
00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:15.079
<v Speaker 1>but Nicle gave me crap last time.

1023
00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:18.159
<v Speaker 2>For and some people agreed. I'm very behind on the

1024
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Spotify comments, and some people agree when you say just

1025
00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:22.320
<v Speaker 2>like it's not always like a good.

1026
00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:24.360
<v Speaker 1>Thing, well it's not always a good thing. But I'm

1027
00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:26.519
<v Speaker 1>not saying in a negative context.

1028
00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:29.199
<v Speaker 2>Though, I know, but we're going to change that language,

1029
00:52:29.239 --> 00:52:29.760
<v Speaker 2>I think a bit.

1030
00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, okay, put it in this way. I'm not saying

1031
00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:34.320
<v Speaker 1>it's just us. I'm saying it's just us. There's no

1032
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:36.719
<v Speaker 1>one else. It's us. To get that, but let's just

1033
00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:42.079
<v Speaker 1>not catch Okay, Well, it's Nicole and I only doing this.

1034
00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:45.400
<v Speaker 1>We've got this. There's no one else, and you guys

1035
00:52:45.400 --> 00:52:48.239
<v Speaker 1>are here supporting us, and because of that, we appreciate it.

1036
00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:51.039
<v Speaker 1>So thank you very much. If you'd like, don't forget

1037
00:52:51.039 --> 00:52:52.920
<v Speaker 1>to follow all the good.

1038
00:52:52.840 --> 00:52:55.800
<v Speaker 2>Stuff, you know, Yeah, you know, I like how you're

1039
00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:59.480
<v Speaker 2>talking to the camera that's not on. But anyway, until Friday,

1040
00:52:59.719 --> 00:53:02.599
<v Speaker 2>Until Friday, stay wicked.