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Speaker 1: Be careful. Snico and his friend pulled a fast one

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on Andrew when they changed the agreements of the debate. Uh, well,

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I don't. I haven't agreed to anything other than to

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come into this room. So I don't know what the

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topics are. I'm not debating this age of Aisha stuff.

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That's not I'm a I debate the philosophy stuff. I

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don't know who Muslim lantern is. So I have no

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idea what what's going on here. But number one, I'm

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not afraid of doing these debates obviously, So Sneako's debate.

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Stop ducking. They're telling me I'm ducking. I literally just

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he can hear. Yeah, what's up? Nice? Hey, how you guys.

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Speaker 2: Doing doing good?

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Speaker 3: Doing good?

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Speaker 4: So this is Muhammad Ali and then we also have

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a fellow Christian, Jacolsi here, a representative of the love

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speech community. So we just had I'll keep you up

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to just bring you up to speed. We just had

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a half debate kind of Andrew Wilson versus Muslim lancer.

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Speaker 1: And this Muhammad live here, and we.

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Speaker 4: Weren't able to agree with to the terms of the

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Age of concent But we do really want to hear

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about the trinity. If we could do a trinity abant.

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I don't know if you're if you're ready or if

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you want to.

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Speaker 5: Do that right now.

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Speaker 4: But me and Jocosa, because he's a Christian, I would

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be unbiased. We can moderate it right now, you versus

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the musclem lantern.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not opposed to debating trinity. I have just

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debated for the last four hours, so I'm a little

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bit tired, but I'm not opposed to doing it.

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Speaker 4: Okay, we can keep it short.

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Speaker 1: I want to keep it.

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Speaker 4: How's forty five minutes. Let's we can start five? Well,

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I mean you don't have an opening statement prepared?

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Speaker 1: I do everything extemporaneous. I would, I mean I would,

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I can do an opening statement extemporaneous, doesn't matter. I mean,

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did you want to do timed or conversation or what

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style debates?

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Speaker 5: So listen to now.

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Speaker 4: Ideally, Okay, so I'll do the same terms that we

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have for the last debate, but it went south. So

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I think having an opening statement for both sides would

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be fair around five minutes. Cap. We'll cap in a

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five minutes and then we can go free flowing back

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and work. But if there's too many interruptions, then we'll

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have to do tim and things, and then that's when

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the moderators.

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Speaker 1: Will have to stuppen. Yeah, that's a good idea. I

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can do that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. So the thing is, like Andrew, I was having

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a discussion with him. He was wanted to talk about

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the age of Manager, of the age of concent right

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versus the Trinity. So I don't know if you want

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to mention something about Islam as well, to be fair,

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because talking just about the Trinity is just a Christian thing.

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Speaker 1: Well no, I mean usually Trinity versus tweed is what

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we debate.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, if you have that, So if you want to

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debate that, that's fine, and you already debated that, so

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you should already have your notes ready, I believe, right,

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because your last debate was kind of.

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Speaker 1: I don't do nuts, man, I just I just do

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everything exceptes.

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Speaker 5: I no know. I'm just making that point clear. They've

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already had a debate on this topic just recently, so

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if you did have notes, you would have them prepared

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so you can say that, but something they've already done. Right,

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So we were having a discussion me and Andrew. We

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can do that if we allow each other to speak,

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finish the points and ask questions.

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Speaker 2: I think that can work between me you.

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Speaker 5: If the moderators not to stage, just becoming interrupting and

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stuff like that, and someone's trying to take over, then

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what we can do is just turn it into timing.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's fair.

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Speaker 1: All right?

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Speaker 5: So, and I made this and I don't think you will,

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but I made this point before in the previous discussion,

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is like, no insulting of the profit directly by mentioning,

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calling him names and stuff like that. I don't think

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you will do that, but I'm just highlighting that because

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that's I guess my faith. So I cannot be in

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the call if this, If this is happening, if that's fair,

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you can let me know.

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Speaker 2: If not, you can also in me a position.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, do you have a camera. I mean

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we're live on YouTube, so my camera as active for

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YouTube right now?

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Speaker 4: Oh okay, okay, you can activate it on on discord two. Yeah,

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hold on, okay, this is a Trinity versus to heat debate.

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Let's get an opening statement from I'll sell with Jay.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, So the doctor in trinity is a doctrine

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that is not derived from philosophy. It's not derived from

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Saint Paul primarily is not derived from the Council of Nicia.

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The doctri the Trinity is taught in the Law and

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the Prophets. In fact, if you go back to my

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Daniel Hikikachu debate, in the first ten minutes, I hold

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up a whiteboard that shows all the passages from the

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Torah and then the prophets that we derived the doctrine

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the Trinity from, mainly from Jewish Extrajesus of the Old Testament.

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This might sound surprising because people think that the doctor

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in Trinity is something that's unique to Christianity, or that

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Jews don't believe in this nowadays, so therefore Jews could

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not have taught it back then. In fact, many Jewish

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scholars today I referenced many of those in that opening

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statement of the Daniel debate. I can refer to them now.

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This would be Benjamin Summer, Alan Siegel, Schaeffer, etc. Boyar,

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and all of those scholars admit that the early Church's

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view is not that distinct from the Judaism of the

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time of Christ in recognizing more than one person in

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the tree. Note, I am not saying that the Jews

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at that time were all Trinitarians. I'm not saying that

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so okay, I'm not saying that Jews necessarily accept trinitarianism.

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I'm saying that these scholars prove that in the time

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of Christ, there was not a generic unitarianism that characterized

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what it is to be quote monotheists. They didn't see

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a contradiction or a problem between the idea of quote

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monotheism and the recognition of the Father as the archae

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cause and fount, the Angel of the Lord as his messenger,

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which we see through all throughout the Old Testament, who

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is called God, who is called Divine, who is called

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the Messenger of the Covenant, who is called Yahweh in

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Exodus three, Exodus twenty three, throughout the Psalms, in the

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Mini Theophanes passages, and many times in the Prophets. Jesus predicted,

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especially in latter Isaiah, to be a divine Nosiah that

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would be worshiped. So a lot of these references to

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the Trinity are primarily grounded rooted in the Torah and

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the Prophets. Islam. However, when it argues against the Trinity,

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he does so on the basis of it not being

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aware of or not being informed typically on what the

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actual texts teach in terms of the Jewish texts that

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we as Christians also refer to also when it comes

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to the text of the Gospel and of the texts

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of the New Testament, they're not aware of the fact

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that Jesus, throughout the Gospel John and every chapter refers

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to himself as both divine and or a member of

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the triad. John one talks about Jesus being the Logos.

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John one talks about him being eternally begotten monogene staeos,

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so the eternal beginning. All of that is already at

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the beginning of the Gospel John and again every chapter,

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whether it's John five through nine, where Jesus identifies himself

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as the one at Mount Sinai talking to Moses, the

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one that gave the law. Jesusirs to himself as the

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Son of God many times over, which means that his

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God is not Allah, because Allah has no sons. So

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Jesus many many times over throughout the Gospel says he

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is the son of God and that he makes us

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by grace sons of God. This proves that there is

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not the same God of Muhammad and the same God

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of Jesus. Jesus is not referring to Allah, as his

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father has no sons. So when we come to the

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time of the early church fathers, they unanimously teach the

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deedy of Christ, the triad, as well the deed of

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the Holy Spirit. This becomes codified by the time of Nicia.

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It's not invented at the time of Nicia. You can

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read the church fathers from Irenaeus to Ignatius to Clement.

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You can read Cyril, sip Schimi, Cyprian, you can read Athanasius,

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all these church fathers, Alexander writing prior to the time.

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And I see that teach the deed of Christ and

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what would become the doctionn or known as the doction

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of Trinity. So the Trinity is not something foreign to

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the scriptures. It's rooted in the Torret's rooted in the

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Prophet's rooting the New Testament, root in the teaching of

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Christ himself. And I would add that when we compare

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it to what's in the Quran, the Koran makes many stakes.

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First of all about what the Christians teach. They say

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that we take our monks as lords. We do not.

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They take They think that the Koran thinks that we

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take Mary as part of the trinity. We do not.

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The Koran also is itself confused in two areas that

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I always like to highlight, which is that it claims

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that prior revelation confirms it and backs it up and

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many times over, like in a so five, that you

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can look to the previous revelation to confirm the new revelation,

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but the old revelation contradicts it. And when Muslims see

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the contradictions, they do the same move of Ejaws and

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the debate to say, well, we reject all the times

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that it contradicts, but we accept all the time that

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it is with our revelation. Well, that is a circle

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that's arguing for the thing that's in question. We want

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to know, how does the prior revelation confirm the new revelation,

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which the Quran says it can do if the prior

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revelations are corrupt, And how a foolish it would be

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to look to a corrupt book to supposedly prove an

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incorrupt book. So it makes no sense on the face

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of it. I would also then argue that the doctrine

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of Tanzi that's derived from the passages that talk about

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all of being nothing like creation forty two and I

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think around one ten Somewhere in there it says that

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Allah is absolutely nothing like creation. And yet Muslims many

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times over will utilize terminology, language, and so forth to

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liken Allah to a created thing, to say that Allah

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is merciful, that he is just, he has all these things.

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Allah has a hand, has a shen, and so forth.

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Things that come up in the accepted hadiths, Well, all

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of those things are contradictory to the notion of Talhed

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that God is a pure unity or pure oneness. This

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is why Muslims for centuries have debated amongst themselves whether

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the attributes are really distinct. And you have people like

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Jake Slafis and others who say, no, oh, yes, Allah

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has a foot, has a shin, and we don't know

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the modality, but he really has these things. They're real attributes.

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And yet we're said to be only a religion of

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perfect unity and perfect oneness. Yet he's many Well, the

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same problem that you have with the attributes and the

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dependence relationship of the attributes on allah essence and amongst

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themselves is no different than the question that we have

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about the persons of the trinity. It's just simply that

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you say that we have a problem that you don't

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have to answer when you have the exact same problem

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in relationship to the attributes in Allah's essence and their

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dependent's relationship. And if you don't think there's a dependence relationship,

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then I will just simply say, do you believe that

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they are then assay or self existent? If they're self existent,

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then you have what ninety nine gods. So you have

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the same problem, but a double standard as to how

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you answer that, not saying note that you believe that

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the attributes of persons. I know you don't believe that.

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But the same problem of the one in the many

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and the dependence status between the attributes and the essence

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is a problem that you cannot answer because within Islam

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there are countless multiple contradictions. How much time do I have?

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Speaker 5: You're good. I don't think I can give you a

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specific time.

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Speaker 1: I thought he said five minute opening or whatever.

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Speaker 5: That was good.

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Speaker 4: That was decisive. I think that's fine. You want to

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respond with some answern.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 5: During my response, I want to ask you questions, if

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that's fine, right, I just want to ask the first

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question is what is the trinity in your belief? What

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is the trinity? Just because we're talking about the trinity,

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so I think defining terms is important because you said

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you found it present in the old systance.

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Speaker 2: So why is the trinity?

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Speaker 1: So doctrine that God is first and foremost identified with

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the person of the Father. The Father is what we

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call the ArKade, the fount, the source, the cause, the

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supreme beginning of the other two persons, and that that's

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revealed to be the person of his eternally begotten son,

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who identify as the Lord Jesus Christ, and with his

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eternal Holy Spirit. So they are three in one. They

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share a common essence or nature in that they come

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from the Father, and they derive the same nature from

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the Father, as Jesus says in John five and six.

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But they're also really and truly distinct, which is why

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we see Jesus, for example, praying to the Father, asking

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things of the Father and so forth. So the Bible,

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we believe, teaches both of those things that he is

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one and three. And it's not a problem for monotheism

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because Actually, the word monotheism is a really late term

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that you don't see until the sixteen hundreds.

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Speaker 5: So I'm sorry I didn't get a definition, but I'll

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give a definition and then you can confirm with me.

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You said few things. I understand them, but I wanted

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like a concise definition. Right, you tell me whether this

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is like represented as the Trinity or not. You have God,

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the Father, God, the Son, God, the Holy Spirit. Okay,

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Father's not the Son's son is not the Holy Spirit.

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Three persons in one being. So there's one being, but

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there's three persons that are within that one being, and

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they are co equal, cote eternal, so they share, they

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are equal in everything, and they're eternal the same way.

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Is that a good representation of for the.

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Speaker 1: Trendy, Well, some of that terminology is a little ambiguous,

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which is why I gave you a specific monarchical trinitarian definition.

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So the model that I gave you was a definition.

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It's called monarchical trinitarianism, and it's distinct from a lot

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of Western trinitarian theology that you might find in Romatholicism.

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So I was being very precise in the response that

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I gave no.

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Speaker 2: No, but do you agree. You have not told me.

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Do you agree that if you say something is ambiguous.

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Speaker 5: You can tell me that this specific part is I

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don't agree with it is ambiguous, and then you can

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clarify what I've said. Is that the definition of the

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trinity or not. I just want a concise definition. Is

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it that there are three persons in one being the

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coote equal quote eternal and they're not the same, like

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the Father's not the sun sents on the horstrait, but

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they won't God.

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Speaker 2: Sure, very simple way. Do you agree with that?

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Speaker 5: Okay? So, because this is how I see people, anyone

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who've seen de fine the trinity define it that way.

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So I just wanted agreement to that. Okay. So that's

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the Trinity. Now you quoted John one and you try

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to say that the scripture shows the trinity, et cetera.

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Quoting Joan one is not an evidence for the trinity.

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The trinity says three persons in one b person is

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separate from the being. John One doesn't say that, says

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in the beginning was the word, the word was with God,

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and the word was with God was God? The word

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became flush of mangolama. If this is what you're referring to.

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That's not three persons in one big there. It does

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not talk about the fact that they're distinct persons.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't say that.

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Speaker 5: I didn't say it's my it's my time.

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Speaker 1: You said you wanted a conversation. You didn't say you.

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Speaker 5: Want no, no, no, no no. I said, I'll ask

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you a question within my time. Because you've made many points,

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I have to respond to the well.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't say that the trinity is three persons

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in John one.

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Speaker 5: I said that, Okay, you said many things that I

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disagreed with as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but what you're saying is a strong man. That

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wasn't what I said.

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Speaker 2: No, No, we'll we'll have it back and forth after I'm done.

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Speaker 5: But I did allowed to speak for like five minutes

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and make so many points.

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Speaker 1: So the back and forth is only when you ask

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the question. I'm confused, you don't want to five minute.

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I thought you want to.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I have an opening statement. I'm saying within my

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opening statement, I'll ask you questions for clarification.

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Speaker 2: That's it.

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Speaker 5: So you responded to the question, and the question was

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what is a trinity? Because it's the debate of a

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topic that's it. So I needed the clarification of that.

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But but other than that, I wanted to finish as well,

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responding to all the points that you made, right, and

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then we can get into back and forth.

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Speaker 2: I'm problem.

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Speaker 5: I don't mind, but I got to respond because you

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made so many points right before you continue?

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Speaker 4: Is does that on? Okay?

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Speaker 3: For both sides?

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Speaker 5: Okay, I would say that you know with your with

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your question there.

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Speaker 4: Why you were speaking and kind of gave the impression

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that you were looking for back and forth, right, because

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if he's.

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Speaker 5: Going to clarify, you know, a question, he had to

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fully clarify.

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Speaker 4: You understand that he wasn't really done with the clarification, is.

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Speaker 5: What I no, no, no, we passed from the point of

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the trinity. He nodded, his hit his head, this is

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a trinity, and then I went to something else and

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then he said I did.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm supposed to know when yeah, okay.

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Speaker 5: No, no, just question I'll ask for example, is the trinity?

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You give response? And that's it. Like that's all I wanted.

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I didn't want like everything Ell mentioned and then you

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will come up. Then it's not going to be an

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opening statement, right, So you said that church fathers were

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unified on the idea of the trinity. That's that is false.

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I have got many examples.

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Speaker 1: There's another strow Man.

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Speaker 5: Okay, but I'm not going to be able to talk

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if you everything I say that.

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Speaker 1: You're okay, so I can't rec can when we get.

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Speaker 5: Can, when we get can we we can. You write

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down what you believe on strongmanning you end, and then

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we can have an open discussion about that once some

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time with opening.

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Speaker 1: Say that fine, sure.

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Speaker 5: Okay, clarify what you meant you said about the church fathers.

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What did you say about the Church fathers?

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Speaker 1: Right, So it's a fallacy of ambiguity to say that

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I mean that they don't have debate. I said that

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they're unified on teaching the three persons and that there

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is the deuty of Christ. They do teach those things.

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They also have debates on these topics too.

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Speaker 5: They have a unified agreement on what the trinity is,

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not what I said. Okay, good, so we have that

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established that agree, no.

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Speaker 1: Agree twisting what okay, I'm asking is there a unified

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teaching of unity in a law? No, so there's debate

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over it. You know that. So you're trying to pin

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me into saying something I'm not saying.

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Speaker 2: That's not my questions.

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Speaker 1: It's called a fallacy. Then it's a fallacy. Then good,

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do you know what that is? Okay, that's what the

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fallacy is, making a simple question for a complex response.

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Speaker 5: That's that's the problem. Always questions like we allow that

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we know fallacy. The problem I'm asking, I'm asking a

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simple question.

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Speaker 1: That's the fallacy position. That's the fallacy is that it

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requires a questions.

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Speaker 2: That fallacy, I asked, it.

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Speaker 3: Is a fallacy.

385
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Speaker 1: You don't even know that this is a fallacy.

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Speaker 5: You finished the question and stopting. I asked the simple question.

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You can say yes or no. You can say that's

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a fallacy, that is a fallacy, can make can make

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a judgment. I asked the simple question. Did the church

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agreed these.

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Speaker 1: Trips might work on your audience? They don't work over here?

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Speaker 5: Okay, So you're just this is how Christians are always

393
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we try to have these questions.

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Speaker 1: You you create a complex question fallacy and make it

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an either or. That's why you keep saying it's a

396
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,920
simple question, not a simple question. It's a difficult question. Look,

397
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:20,759
is it a simple question? About Allah and his attributes.

398
00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:21,680
Is that a simple question?

399
00:17:22,279 --> 00:17:23,559
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, it's simple.

400
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Speaker 1: So there's not debates amongst the aqdas on that.

401
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:28,880
Speaker 2: It is a simple question and I'm going to respond

402
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:29,119
to it.

403
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,000
Speaker 1: But it's not a simple question, you know.

404
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:34,799
Speaker 3: Okay, So what's the relationship apologization?

405
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,160
Speaker 5: It's not going to work. Okay, you're interrupting, and this

406
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is not how discussions.

407
00:17:38,599 --> 00:17:45,039
Speaker 1: Because you're playing, You're you're erecting false is a false

408
00:17:45,079 --> 00:17:48,880
either or a fallacy? Is that a fallacy? Is a

409
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,200
false either or fallacy?

410
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:52,640
Speaker 2: If the mother is, I'm not going to enjoy it.

411
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Speaker 1: So you won't answer.

412
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Speaker 5: No, I can speak of my opening statement about you

413
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,119
asking me questions. It's my opening statement, not yours.

414
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,200
Speaker 1: But you you opened your statement asking questions playing games.

415
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Speaker 3: Dude, Come on, okay, how about this?

416
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Speaker 5: How can you ask the question?

417
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,200
Speaker 4: And because Jay is saying that it's a complicated question,

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00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:13,759
can you respond to it? And under a minute you

419
00:18:13,799 --> 00:18:15,880
can ask the question again it's complicated. You can have

420
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a minute to respond to the question.

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Speaker 1: That's fair.

422
00:18:18,039 --> 00:18:19,839
Speaker 5: No. Look, look, I'm not going to ask him any

423
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,920
questions because what he's trying to do is just waste time.

424
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He I was making a point. Then he said, you

425
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misrepresented me. I said, okay, go ahead, represent yourself. He

426
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doesn't want to represent himself.

427
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Speaker 1: I'm saying, I already gave you. I gave you a

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super precise Well, I don't want to represent myself when

429
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I gave you a super precise definition of the turner.

430
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Speaker 2: Come on, you didn't the question I didn't get.

431
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,799
Speaker 1: I gave you a five minute, super precise monarchical trinity.

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Speaker 5: And here's my argument. Anyways.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah, I'm not gonna ask you questions.

434
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Speaker 5: I'm gonna I'm gonna say my opening statements like you did,

435
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like I love to speak with the interruption.

436
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Speaker 1: No, you don't get another five minutes. It's your fault

437
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,319
that you asked me questions. A stupid thing to ask

438
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me questions in your opening statement. That was dumb of you.

439
00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:01,119
Speaker 5: Okay, okay, I'm gonna continue you with my opening statement.

440
00:19:03,799 --> 00:19:04,799
Speaker 1: How many how many minutes?

441
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Speaker 5: No, No, at the same time that you had, I'm

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going to be equal.

443
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Speaker 1: You've already gone for what four or five minutes. It's

444
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not much. You asked a question. That's you.

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Speaker 5: You've been talking to me. It's it's a waste of time.

446
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I'm not gonna waste my time allowing you to if

447
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,680
you asked the question, and I'm going to continue. I'm

448
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,000
going to continue with my proposition, and you can You're

449
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:22,839
not going to keep jumping by saying you misrepresenting me

450
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that a strong man you're going to like. I listened

451
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to you, and then we can have a discussion and

452
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,359
you can have one to one back and forth and

453
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you can say whatever you want.

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Speaker 4: We'll give you two minutes to.

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Speaker 5: Finish your statement now at least three minutes. Two minutes

456
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:41,119
is nine First, he made multiple points. Okay, okay, without interruption,

457
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,640
I'm gonna continue now withever opening statement is okay. Church

458
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,240
fathers were in complete disagreement on their beliefs and what

459
00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:50,720
constitutes the trinity. There's many quot quotes that I have

460
00:19:50,799 --> 00:19:53,799
over here I can demonstrate that. To try and come

461
00:19:53,839 --> 00:19:55,799
and say there's kind of a unified agreement or whatever

462
00:19:55,799 --> 00:19:59,119
it is, that's completely not true. They had complete different

463
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,599
beliefs for one another. I'm going to read just quickly.

464
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Maybe some of these positions so ignacious. For example, had

465
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,839
a position of subordinism. You can lead in his Letter

466
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,720
to Magnesians, chapter thirteen, be subject to the bishop and

467
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to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father. So

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he believes that Jesus Christ was subject to the Father.

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00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,599
You have scholars who say these positions, so it's not

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be taking a quotation after quontext, like some people who

471
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try to come and pretend. For example, Virginia Crowd says

472
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,079
in st Ignacious and Christianity in Antioch in page one

473
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,960
hundred and forty three, none of these passages after she's

474
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,240
mentioning some passages of the beliefs that Ignatius had as

475
00:20:38,319 --> 00:20:41,039
to the understanding of the Trinity meant to Ignitians, we

476
00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:45,640
are forced to conclude there was a very undefined belief indeed,

477
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,640
so he didn't have a defined belief. William Shaddel says

478
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:53,160
in Ignacious Commentary, page twenty, Ignatius casually uses to Etherian

479
00:20:53,279 --> 00:20:55,680
formula he makes, he does not He makes little of

480
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,279
them theologically, so he does not make theological arguments and

481
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,640
recause to the Trinity. So this is not a specific

482
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,720
person believe. I can do the same thing with arenas

483
00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:05,519
now with the Trutulian. I don't have much time, but

484
00:21:05,559 --> 00:21:07,680
I can do that. He is welcome to ask and

485
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,160
I can give the quotations of every single one of them.

486
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,839
Some of them would believe that the son was created

487
00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:14,720
by the father. Some of them would believe that the

488
00:21:14,759 --> 00:21:18,640
Father is superior to the son. They're not co equal.

489
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,519
As a doctor of the Trinity says, now, he says

490
00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:24,559
for ances that it confirms the previous scriptures. Yeah, well,

491
00:21:24,559 --> 00:21:26,440
you know what it means. But confirms the previous scriptures.

492
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,559
You can open the brand chapter five, verse forty seven,

493
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,279
forty eight, where it says that it's a criterion over it,

494
00:21:31,279 --> 00:21:33,880
which means whatever disagrees. That's not a Jazz position, as

495
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,720
he tried to make it as a Muslim position. And

496
00:21:35,759 --> 00:21:38,880
it is mentioned by scholars that the scripture is changed,

497
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,359
and if it is changed, they know what ever would

498
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,839
disagree with that, then we completely disagree with it. And

499
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,240
what does confirm mean? It means it confirms that there

500
00:21:45,279 --> 00:21:47,880
was previous revelations that was revealed to the previous profits,

501
00:21:48,079 --> 00:21:50,400
and it confirms the existence of previous prophits. That's what

502
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,839
confirms means, doesn't mean that we say that everything in

503
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,720
there is completely okay. You said proven a corrupted scripture

504
00:21:57,759 --> 00:21:59,839
and not corrupted scripture is a corupted scripture. We don't

505
00:21:59,839 --> 00:22:00,200
try to.

506
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,920
Speaker 2: Prove Islam using the Bible. Let we never try to

507
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:03,200
do that.

508
00:22:03,279 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 5: He said the ze doctrine that you made so many

509
00:22:05,279 --> 00:22:09,440
fallacies trying to equate an attribute to a part, which

510
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:10,480
is something that we don't believe.

511
00:22:10,799 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 1: Where is the fallacy? So you got one more minute.

512
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, So we don't believe attributes are parts. We don't

513
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,400
use that terminology when it comes to attributes of alasta Ya.

514
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,440
To say that just because God has attributes that therefore

515
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,920
God has many parts is ridiculous. To say that. We

516
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:28,839
say that all is not like anyone, and we have

517
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:30,799
an attribute, has an attribute before he's like us. No,

518
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,319
we believe, for instance, our knowledge is limited, is dependent

519
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,440
on all law. We don't know the future. We forget

520
00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:39,839
the knowledge of all lies ultimately knows the past president

521
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,400
of the future. He knows a hypothetical situation. So it's

522
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,279
not the same. So do we say it's not like it,

523
00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:46,079
and it is not like it? Because God's knowledge is

524
00:22:46,079 --> 00:22:48,160
perfect and hon knowledge is limited. And that is the

525
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,000
same with all the attributes of God. The way a

526
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,359
lot of possesses them is perfect, the way you posist them,

527
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,920
and not. An attribute is something that does not exist

528
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,720
an abstract exist within something, and that something remains one.

529
00:22:57,839 --> 00:23:00,119
Nobody says that having attributes makes you more than one.

530
00:23:00,279 --> 00:23:02,720
I have love, compassion, hate, year, all of that once

531
00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:03,599
is therefore.

532
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,880
Speaker 2: A hundred or two hundred because they have different attributes.

533
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 5: Ridiculous. Yeah, so it just to put it in. They

534
00:23:09,039 --> 00:23:10,920
like to say black cannot exist whether it self has

535
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,240
to exist in a shirt or an object. Attributes do

536
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:14,799
not exist in vacuum.

537
00:23:14,839 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 4: Okay, Jane, we'll give you three minutes to respond.

538
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was foolish. Cotue foolishness because now my time.

539
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,440
Shut up the foolishness because he admitted that the analogy

540
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,000
that he gave to parts of a shirt like attributes

541
00:23:28,079 --> 00:23:30,759
like color, the color black, those are parts. And by

542
00:23:30,839 --> 00:23:32,839
the way, I didn't argue that you thought all I

543
00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:34,559
had parts. I know that you don't think he does.

544
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,119
My argument is that you contradict when you say that

545
00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:41,079
he has attributes that are dependent. Do you believe that

546
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,680
the attributes are self existent or they do they depend

547
00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:48,440
upon all his essence and amongst themselves in a dependence relationship.

548
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:52,359
That's the question.

549
00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 4: Sure, Okay, but then the three minutes forfeit.

550
00:23:58,319 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 1: It's not forfeited. He asked me a question opening statement,

551
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,799
I can ask him a question, and then.

552
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,039
Speaker 4: We decided to go three minutes back and forth. I mean,

553
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,799
if we're going to do questions, then we can't do

554
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,440
the three minutes un interrupted again. So okay, ull, lets

555
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,559
you respond to this muscile answer question thirty seconds to respond.

556
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

557
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,079
Speaker 5: He mentioned something about the color being apart. I mentioned

558
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:21,839
many attributes like love and age and this and that's

559
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,279
that's that is a strong man.

560
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,559
Speaker 1: I said, are they dependent? Is a relationship? Now?

561
00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 5: To respond to the dependence or not dependence? We don't

562
00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:30,920
use the terminology A lot of us and uses, so

563
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,319
therefore I don't use it. I believe it's an attribute,

564
00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:37,640
and an attribute exists within the creator. We don't use

565
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:38,880
the term dependent depended.

566
00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 1: And by the way, you do, do you do use

567
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,279
that terminology and debates because Jake used that terminology in

568
00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:50,480
many of his debates. I'm not Jake, I know, but

569
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,599
what you're saying, you know, you guys don't use that terminology.

570
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:52,920
He did.

571
00:24:53,799 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: I'm talking about from an Islamic position.

572
00:24:56,759 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: So are they dependent on himself? Okay? So in other words,

573
00:24:59,519 --> 00:25:00,960
you have a double that you have a double standard.

574
00:25:01,599 --> 00:25:03,599
Notice that he has a double standard to where in

575
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,720
his position he's allowed to say, I don't have to

576
00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:07,680
answer these questions. I don't know the relationship of all

577
00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:10,039
the attributes. That is what you said. You said, we

578
00:25:10,039 --> 00:25:12,319
don't have to answer that. That's what you said.

579
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:13,319
Speaker 5: Dependent.

580
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: I asked you, what are they all saying? Are they

581
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,680
all say you are? They are saying? Are they self existent?

582
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,440
Are they self existing? I'm sorry, you don't know the terms.

583
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:25,359
Are they self existent?

584
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:27,839
Speaker 2: What do you mean by self existence?

585
00:25:28,039 --> 00:25:29,799
Speaker 1: Do they exist of themselves? You don't know that word.

586
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 5: They exist within the create as I said to you,

587
00:25:33,319 --> 00:25:36,880
So they're dependent Allah, they exist with a law and

588
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,000
there's nothing that exists separate.

589
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 2: From his attributes.

590
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: Are the attributes?

591
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,039
Speaker 3: It it's a classic debate within your aquitas.

592
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:46,319
Speaker 1: You raquita's debate this and.

593
00:25:46,279 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 5: You know that I don't know what you don't know.

594
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: What a school is in your system. Now he's lying

595
00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:53,319
like he's playing like he doesn't This is what they do.

596
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,599
They pretend that they don't know. These are classic debates

597
00:25:55,599 --> 00:25:57,920
that they killed each other over the relationship of like

598
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,359
like the Multazila, the multi calaim them, the Salafi you

599
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,480
all do this does all, I have an uncreated foot.

600
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 5: Okay, so you talk about what do they believe? The

601
00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:10,039
give me the four principles.

602
00:26:09,559 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: Of principles and the neo platon is the neol So

603
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,480
here's what he's do. So he's deflecting away because he

604
00:26:18,519 --> 00:26:21,440
won't answer these questions. Notice, he won't answer their question.

605
00:26:22,079 --> 00:26:24,119
So whether it's the people who believe in the body

606
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,680
parts of all or whether it's the neo platon is,

607
00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:30,720
he won't answer. They have the same position as the

608
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:31,759
neoplaton as I do.

609
00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 5: That's what you said to present. You're not.

610
00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: No, I don't have to define your schools for you.

611
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,359
You tell me what so you don't have it. It

612
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,960
doesn't matter the four principles. When you can't answer the question,

613
00:26:43,559 --> 00:26:45,920
you can't notice he won't answer the question of Allah

614
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,400
and the attributes because he doesn't know what the word

615
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:49,039
self existed.

616
00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:51,319
Speaker 2: And I mean, you're incorrectly.

617
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: What's your position? I don't care about them. What's your position?

618
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:55,799
What's your position?

619
00:26:56,839 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 5: My position?

620
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 3: Which is what?

621
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,039
Speaker 1: So you're obfuscation.

622
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 2: You got to give me a question.

623
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,319
Speaker 1: And then what is the relationship of Allah to his attributes?

624
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,279
Are they? Are they say or not? I know you'd

625
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:11,160
know you're doing it.

626
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 3: You're deflecting, and you're you're collapsing.

627
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 5: The attribute is.

628
00:27:14,559 --> 00:27:16,559
Speaker 1: Everyone knows this, No they don't. You're saying that you're

629
00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:18,359
you're saying your schools don't debate.

630
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,039
Speaker 5: This is you don't even know.

631
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: What It doesn't matter what you do, It doesn't matter.

632
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,519
Maybe I don't know anything. Maybe I don't know anything.

633
00:27:27,519 --> 00:27:31,160
That's a fallacy that doesn't prove your position. Okay, so

634
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,400
your fallacy machine. So you can't answer this basic question,

635
00:27:35,519 --> 00:27:38,160
can you? You don't know the relationship of all his

636
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,880
attributes for the fourth time, but you didn't answer. I

637
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,039
told you deflected.

638
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,599
Speaker 5: I told you the attributes of Allah are not something

639
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,759
that we say is a part or separated from a lot.

640
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 2: Believe that.

641
00:27:51,759 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 1: How does that solve the question? So are they? Are? They?

642
00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:56,920
Speaker 2: Just like you cannot separate my love and hate from me.

643
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 1: But those are parts of you that I thought all

644
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,519
that was nothing like preatures. I thought he's nothing like creatures.

645
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,319
I thought he's nothing like creatures.

646
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 5: You said parts. So it shows that you are saying,

647
00:28:07,559 --> 00:28:08,960
have you said the parts?

648
00:28:08,599 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: You can't understand that I'm putting you into a.

649
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 2: Putzel bar like a kid, like a child. You're just

650
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,000
exposing your ignorant attribute parts.

651
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:22,279
Speaker 1: That's your position. You contradicted yourself when you compared it

652
00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:25,759
to parts of your shirt. Dude, does your shirt have parts?

653
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,920
Does your shirt have parts? Now I go back to

654
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,599
the Dollar's script. Now, let me go back to the

655
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,240
dollar script. You you have nine or nine gods?

656
00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:37,599
Speaker 5: Independent existence is independent?

657
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: Wells, oh, so now you know the word I'll say.

658
00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:43,039
Now you know what I say mean. So this guy's

659
00:28:43,079 --> 00:28:45,000
just snake. Look, he knows what the word I say means.

660
00:28:45,039 --> 00:28:47,039
He pretended like you didn't know earlier, because now he

661
00:28:47,119 --> 00:28:50,319
says the Trinity is that they're not independent. We don't

662
00:28:50,319 --> 00:28:54,559
believe in independent existence. They're not independent. That's not our position.

663
00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 5: I'm prostrating to him. That's not attribute.

664
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,559
Speaker 1: You don't even know. You don't even know what I

665
00:28:58,559 --> 00:29:01,160
already refuted. That's when I gave you my archical trinitarianism.

666
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,200
All he does, that's monarchical trinitarianism. That's the position I gave.

667
00:29:08,079 --> 00:29:10,559
Speaker 5: You the outset losing it and acting like a child,

668
00:29:10,599 --> 00:29:12,000
And I think you got because.

669
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: You're saying this, because you literally didn't answer any of

670
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,359
the questions I asked you about the attributes you said

671
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,079
parts like shirts. Shirts have parts. Dude, that's your analogy.

672
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 3: I said, black I think that's part of you.

673
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: You don't think shirt. You know, so blackness is not

674
00:29:24,519 --> 00:29:25,359
part of your shirt.

675
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 5: It showed me the existence of.

676
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: What does that have to do. It's a part. Say

677
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,000
it's accidental. I don't care.

678
00:29:32,319 --> 00:29:33,359
Speaker 5: It's not attribute.

679
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,519
Speaker 1: So it's an attribute of a shirt which is made

680
00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:38,160
up of parts.

681
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,799
Speaker 5: Okay, okay, Well.

682
00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:43,559
Speaker 1: So you use the analogy to a creature when all

683
00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:45,240
has nothing like creatures.

684
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:47,559
Speaker 5: I'll give it an energy. So well, like you said,

685
00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:49,680
they can't understand we can't have attributes on a look.

686
00:29:49,519 --> 00:29:51,599
Speaker 3: At but all is nothing like creatures, so it doesn't

687
00:29:51,599 --> 00:29:52,599
work attributes.

688
00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 5: That does not what we mean. No Muslims called in

689
00:29:54,759 --> 00:29:57,240
Isamic history. He said that there's nothing like. It means

690
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:58,160
he doesn't have attributes.

691
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,759
Speaker 1: No, it says he's nothing like creatures life. So it's

692
00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:03,519
a contradiction.

693
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,359
Speaker 5: The attributes of a lot are maxically perfect. We can

694
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,640
have attribute, but a limited attribute. The creator can have

695
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:09,319
mexic perfectly.

696
00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: I know you believe that, but you don't even understand

697
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,279
the contradiction. I'm pointing out, how is there a comparison

698
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,039
of all its creatures. When he's nothing like creatures? You

699
00:30:18,119 --> 00:30:20,279
compared him to your shirt and the parts of your shirt.

700
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,119
Speaker 2: What do you mean? What do you mean by nothing like?

701
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,000
What do you mean by that?

702
00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:25,359
Speaker 3: Like?

703
00:30:25,839 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 5: Honestly such a child's thing? What do you mean by it?

704
00:30:28,279 --> 00:30:30,240
There's nothing like a love? What we mean by I mean?

705
00:30:30,319 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: When it says that in the car in forty two,

706
00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:34,799
it says all is nothing like creatures?

707
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,279
Speaker 5: Okay? And I responded to.

708
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: And you gave an analogy of a created shirt and

709
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:41,400
its parts?

710
00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: No, No, I didn't do that.

711
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,599
Speaker 3: Yes, you did, as I said. You just said that.

712
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: Look, he says, no, I did not do that. Term

713
00:30:47,799 --> 00:30:50,839
you said, the black on my shirt is an attribute?

714
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,759
Speaker 5: I said, colors don't exist at abstract.

715
00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: What does that have to do?

716
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 2: That has to exists to exist?

717
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: It's so, is your shirt a created analogy? Is it

718
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:00,000
a created analogy?

719
00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 5: It?

720
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: Is it a created analogy?

721
00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:04,799
Speaker 2: The color black is an.

722
00:31:05,519 --> 00:31:09,839
Speaker 1: Is it an analogy? Creative things analogous to law? That's

723
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,519
the point. No, you're just not answering, you're avoiding it.

724
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,720
So you're using creative things with parts that are composite

725
00:31:17,119 --> 00:31:19,640
as an analogy to Allah, who's nothing like creatures?

726
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 2: All right, let's do timing because as you can see, it's.

727
00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: Just because he's running over me. Let's do the timing

728
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:27,480
because I can't do.

729
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,039
Speaker 5: It other people.

730
00:31:31,839 --> 00:31:34,119
Speaker 4: We'll go, we'll resume from Jay's question, and then we'll

731
00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:35,920
do thirty seconds back and forth each time. I'm going

732
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,400
to be specific with the time or so, Jay, can

733
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:38,079
you repeat your question?

734
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,319
Speaker 1: And the other question was very explicitly, you made an

735
00:31:41,319 --> 00:31:46,720
analogy to Allah and his attributes to a shirt with

736
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,480
parts and accidental things like colors, when the Quran says

737
00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:55,119
twice that Allah is nothing like creatures. So your analogy

738
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:56,880
doesn't work and it doesn't tell us anything. How do

739
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,279
you resolve that thirty seconds?

740
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 5: Okay, I never made that. He doesn't understand what he's

741
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,920
talking about. I made an analogy for him about the

742
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,839
idea of an attribute the attributes. Now the analogy to

743
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,640
do the attributes, not to do with all lies conflicting

744
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,640
the two. It's the idea is that attributes do not exist.

745
00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:14,799
Speaker 2: Come on, yeah, he.

746
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 5: Can't do it right. The attributes do not exist, and

747
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,640
abstract they have to exist to them something.

748
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,359
Speaker 2: They're not saparable, they're parts.

749
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,799
Speaker 5: And that's how we look at that it's not like

750
00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:25,640
anything that attributes are maximally perfect. They're not like ours simple.

751
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,599
It's very very simple, and people listening.

752
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:28,799
Speaker 1: He doesn't even understand the critique.

753
00:32:32,279 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: Okay, do you want to do the question thing? So

754
00:32:34,559 --> 00:32:35,799
I should give.

755
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: It up again because okay, okay, okay.

756
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,279
Speaker 4: So now let's let's let answer respond with the question.

757
00:32:41,319 --> 00:32:42,880
But we have to do uninterrupted or else this is

758
00:32:43,079 --> 00:32:45,119
this is waste of time. So I'll let answer pose

759
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,599
a question here. You could also respond to where you

760
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,680
wanted the last one, but the three seconds back and

761
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,319
forth answer and go ahead.

762
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:51,799
Speaker 1: All right?

763
00:32:51,839 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 5: So he agreed that the trinity means that the three

764
00:32:54,759 --> 00:32:57,319
persons are quote equal quotes. We look at Jesus and

765
00:32:57,359 --> 00:33:00,960
Mark thirteen thirty two, who explicitly mentions and says that

766
00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:03,079
he does not know the hour. Well, the father knows

767
00:33:03,359 --> 00:33:04,680
the hour. And I can bring a quote from a

768
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,039
church father right now, who is explaining that this superiority

769
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,519
of the father over the son did not equal because

770
00:33:10,559 --> 00:33:12,160
one of them knows when the hour is going to happen,

771
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,599
the other doesn't know. She is going to say that

772
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,839
his human nature, it's irrelevant because he have both natures

773
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,000
divine and human natures. You cannot come and say does

774
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,920
the human nature? So how does Jesus not know something?

775
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,319
And you clear that he's equal to the Father and

776
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,440
the Holy Spirit doesn't know as well, because the verse

777
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,799
says only the Father knows Mark thirteen thirty two.

778
00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: Okay, do you have a question to follow up?

779
00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 5: I know is he is supposed to answer? Right question?

780
00:33:34,079 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: Answer? Did you well?

781
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:36,759
Speaker 1: Was the question?

782
00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: The question is how.

783
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: It's about Jesus. Yeah, so I agree he understands. Yeah.

784
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,359
And no, I don't answer it the way he thought

785
00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:45,799
I was going to answer. I answered it according to

786
00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:48,200
the way Saint Basil does in Letter to thirty five

787
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,240
and six, where he says that the limitation there is

788
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,680
a form of rhetoric or exaggeration, which Jesus does in

789
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,920
many places where he says, for example, that there's none

790
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,480
good but the Father. Does that mean that no one

791
00:33:58,519 --> 00:34:00,920
else is good? No, it's rhetoric because in other places

792
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,079
he also qualifies that and says that the Son also

793
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,400
is good. He says that people are good, the Holy

794
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,159
Spirit is good, A good man will do this or that.

795
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,599
So no, when he says things like that, we have

796
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:15,159
a consistent exegetical pattern as to how we explain those passages,

797
00:34:15,519 --> 00:34:17,639
and we don't believe the Bible contradicts. So there are

798
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:21,280
passages that talk about the subordination, which, if he understood

799
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,679
what monarchical trinitarianism is, we recognize a subordination of the

800
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:27,480
son to the father, but not according to essence. So

801
00:34:27,519 --> 00:34:30,639
he doesn't understand that that's different. That's a different theology

802
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:34,480
than he has. He thinks that distinction entails differences in

803
00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:37,480
terms of ontology. We believe that just as a son

804
00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:39,880
can show the same nature as his father, he can

805
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,239
be subject to the father. That doesn't mean the father

806
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,760
has more human nature than a son. That's an analogy.

807
00:34:45,079 --> 00:34:46,880
Your position, by the way, doesn't make sense in terms

808
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,519
of analogies, because you said you made an analogy to

809
00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:53,559
help me. But your very analogy doesn't work because Allah's

810
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,280
attributes and his existence are nothing like the thing things

811
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,440
in the created order, So your analogy doesn't work. That

812
00:34:59,599 --> 00:35:02,960
was the and you just keep over an That was.

813
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,679
Speaker 4: A bit over a minute, all lantern to figures fond

814
00:35:04,679 --> 00:35:05,320
in a minute.

815
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, I was puned very very simply. Let's have

816
00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:11,000
Christians tried to away from this cripture. I just said,

817
00:35:11,039 --> 00:35:14,920
I can present quotations that can present commentary if people

818
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,119
explicitly saying that this is an issue that one knows something, well,

819
00:35:19,159 --> 00:35:21,079
the other doesn't know something. But oh, this is a

820
00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:23,239
pyetric critric. Like Jesus says, there's no one good but

821
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,199
the Father. He means ultimately good. Yes, there is no

822
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,760
one perfect in his goodness except the Father. We agree

823
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,800
there's no issues there. So that verse that Jesus says

824
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,000
doesn't have an issue, we also agree when he says

825
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,159
he doesn't know that he doesn't know. And you cannot

826
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,280
be God and you don't know something because God knows

827
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,440
everything all the time, so you cannot run away from

828
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,119
the subject in something. And you said, by the way,

829
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:41,719
the son is subject to the father, we believe the

830
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,719
son is subject of exactly, so it's subject to the Father.

831
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,199
They're not quite equal in the sense that they are

832
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,960
equal in every position, every way, every shing. And that's

833
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,760
why we say that what you call the Father is

834
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,960
a true God. Jesus is someone who's subjected to him.

835
00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 2: There is not some belief.

836
00:35:55,159 --> 00:35:57,039
Speaker 4: Okay, Jay figures fond in a minute.

837
00:35:57,519 --> 00:36:00,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're missing the point that at the beginning

838
00:36:00,119 --> 00:36:02,440
I said that I wouldn't immediately commit to your understanding

839
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,679
of the words coequal, because in some ways they are

840
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,119
equal in terms of power and in terms of nature,

841
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,320
but that doesn't mean they're equal in every sense. So

842
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,400
that's why I was hesitant to agree to your tricks

843
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,679
of terminology there with making it simple and making it easy.

844
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:19,000
That's why I use monarchical trinitarianism, which again to use

845
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,760
the analogy of a father or a king and his son.

846
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,599
The king and the son the prince possessed the same natures.

847
00:36:25,639 --> 00:36:28,199
The king is not more human than the son, and

848
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,119
yet the son still is subject to the father. This

849
00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:34,039
is orthodox trinitarianism. I'm not a Roman Catholic. So this

850
00:36:34,159 --> 00:36:36,360
is our position, which I stated from the very outset

851
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,000
in the first five minutes. But you just didn't know

852
00:36:38,039 --> 00:36:40,559
about that. But when you gave your analogy again of

853
00:36:40,599 --> 00:36:43,519
the attributes, you didn't answer the question. You avoided it,

854
00:36:43,559 --> 00:36:45,199
you ignored it, and you wanted to switch over into

855
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,360
the question of Jesus' knowledge, which is fine. I don't

856
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,800
have a problem of mentioning the fact that Jesus uses

857
00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:52,679
rhetoric and exaggerated language all the time. He says, if

858
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,280
your hand caused you to cut it off. He's not

859
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,840
saying literally, cut your hand off. He's also not saying

860
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,719
that no one is good but the Father. It's rhetoric.

861
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,760
So in the same way, he can express that the

862
00:37:03,119 --> 00:37:06,920
Father is the sole source of all existence, goodness, knowledge,

863
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,400
et cetera. And yet at the same time, the other

864
00:37:09,519 --> 00:37:13,119
passages also confirm in John five and six that Jesus

865
00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:17,039
has all the same powers, knowledge, and u activities as

866
00:37:17,039 --> 00:37:19,000
the Father. Everything the Father has has been committed to

867
00:37:19,039 --> 00:37:22,400
the Son. So you selectively choose the passages, and I

868
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,159
want to go back to my question, then, how do

869
00:37:24,199 --> 00:37:27,760
you know which passages are the correct passages in the

870
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,039
Bible and which ones are the corrupted ones? When Allah's

871
00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:37,599
work cannot be corrupted. And I'm told in uh five four, all.

872
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 4: Over a minute. I'll if you can respond to that question,

873
00:37:40,159 --> 00:37:41,159
I'll give you ninety seconds.

874
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:41,760
Speaker 1: All right.

875
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,039
Speaker 5: I'm very happy that. Look he shows that he changes

876
00:37:44,079 --> 00:37:46,400
his position. He agreed, and I said, is that the Trinity?

877
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,320
He shakes his head and he said, yes. Now he

878
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,960
knows that this is going to be probmatic, so he

879
00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:52,239
admits that they're not equal. I'm happy. That's it. That's

880
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:53,280
what we will thats not what.

881
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 1: No, you're just you're just confused.

882
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,639
Speaker 5: On this interrupting. Don't interrupt. Shut up. Like you said

883
00:37:58,679 --> 00:38:01,639
to me, I'll say the same thing. They're not equal.

884
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,960
With your own statement, you said that they are not equally. Yes,

885
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,880
they are not equal. Exactly, that's what we believe is Muslims.

886
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,920
The Father, who you call the father, is superior to

887
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:09,519
what you call the son.

888
00:38:09,559 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 2: You give an analogy of king a son.

889
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 5: Exactly, the king came as the son is superior to

890
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:13,679
the son.

891
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:14,679
Speaker 2: It's not equal to him.

892
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: So ill nature. You're lying, I said in nature.

893
00:38:19,079 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 5: You're interrupting again, you're interrupting it.

894
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,559
Speaker 2: Thank you, Please don't interrupt.

895
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 5: When it comes to e retric and a retric they

896
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,440
run away from anything which is key. For example, I'll

897
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,679
bring him now John seventeen three, where Jesus is explicit

898
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,840
it is no true God. The only true God is

899
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,960
the Father, he says, the only true God addressing the

900
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:36,440
Father is.

901
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:37,039
Speaker 2: The only true God.

902
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,599
Speaker 5: And he doesn't get, which means that any other the

903
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,480
is false. We have all of the Bible, Jesus making

904
00:38:42,599 --> 00:38:44,400
statements that can be a pure divine I can say

905
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,400
it stretaker as well. Anyone can say, ari trick. Okay,

906
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,199
whatever verse you got to bring up is also a trick.

907
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,440
And we play this game. Whichever versity I all life.

908
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,159
We just call it a retric The game with playing

909
00:38:53,639 --> 00:38:55,199
with these things that don't agree with you is you

910
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,119
try to escape the position and the fact that Jesus

911
00:38:57,199 --> 00:38:59,679
subordinated submissive. So you have people arguing it in the

912
00:38:59,679 --> 00:39:01,920
counsel I see in other councils because they believe they

913
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:02,800
were supported in it.

914
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 2: Didn't didn't believe he was equal.

915
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 5: You have tons of harrisies due to that, because the

916
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,320
trinity makes no logical sense. Now you lie by the way,

917
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,119
and you said, there's a verse in John. This is

918
00:39:11,119 --> 00:39:12,880
that they have the same power, they have the same knowledge,

919
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,239
You have the same Waysdom whoever it is, I headn't

920
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,159
read that verse for us exactly what it says. Now

921
00:39:18,199 --> 00:39:19,880
you said in the Paranah. Responding to what you said,

922
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,960
the Koran, which versus, which verses are product to which

923
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,039
versus are not? Whatever agrees with the paran we believe

924
00:39:25,039 --> 00:39:27,000
that is therefore accepted untrue.

925
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:28,599
Speaker 2: Whatever it disagrees, we reject.

926
00:39:28,679 --> 00:39:31,079
Speaker 5: Whatever it doesn't agree or disagree, we are agnostic about it.

927
00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:32,760
That is the Islamic position given by the prophet, and

928
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:33,880
the now.

929
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,079
Speaker 1: Respond, Yeah, this guy's playing games because he knows that

930
00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:43,840
nobody interprets any text as if every single phrase or

931
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,079
idea that is expressed is in that single text. The

932
00:39:47,119 --> 00:39:49,760
trinity is a doctrine that's derived from all the texts

933
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,760
of the scriptures, not from this or that verse, And

934
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,599
so he's setting up a false criteria for me to

935
00:39:55,079 --> 00:39:58,559
use the exact terminology in any single verse. Jesus says

936
00:39:58,599 --> 00:40:01,920
in John sixteen fifteen that everything that the Father has

937
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,360
has been given to the Son. That means all of

938
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,360
his existence, all of his powers, all of his attributes.

939
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,639
The son also shares I answered his question when he asked,

940
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,880
what use that equal? Yeah, coequal in nature. Hence the

941
00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:18,079
example of the Father in the Son being distinct persons,

942
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,000
same in nature, equal in nature. Equal in nature means

943
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,480
that equal in the power that proceeds from that nature.

944
00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:28,760
So yes, throughout the Gospel of John, every chapter, every book,

945
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,559
excuse me, every chapter in the Book of John includes

946
00:40:31,559 --> 00:40:33,880
a reference to the deed of Christ and or a

947
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,159
reference to the triad. No goofus. That doesn't mean the

948
00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:39,920
word trinity is in the book. It means the concept

949
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,639
the teaching of the Trinity is in the book, just

950
00:40:41,679 --> 00:40:43,880
like it's throughout the Old Testament, not the words. It

951
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,360
doesn't have to have the words. That's your criteria that

952
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,960
you made up for me. Now, I asked you a

953
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,679
specific question about you going to the text and the

954
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,880
prior revelation of what your criteria was. You ignored it.

955
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,159
You didn't answer it. I want to know what is

956
00:40:59,199 --> 00:41:02,639
your criteria for knowing when in the Old Testament it's

957
00:41:02,639 --> 00:41:04,639
true and when it's false? Is it not the Quran

958
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:05,760
the very thing in question.

959
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,079
Speaker 4: Ninety ponds for Lancern.

960
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 5: All right, so clearly he said it is not from

961
00:41:12,039 --> 00:41:14,000
a part of the things is derived from everything. It

962
00:41:14,079 --> 00:41:16,360
is not. He's essentially saying it's not clear, which is

963
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,719
what we love to hear, is that the doctrine of

964
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,599
the Trinity is not clear in the Bible.

965
00:41:20,599 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 2: That sual.

966
00:41:21,039 --> 00:41:23,199
Speaker 5: That's why I said, I can present many quotes from

967
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,519
church Father in which they disagree with one another and

968
00:41:25,519 --> 00:41:27,480
what they believe the Son was and the Father was.

969
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,360
You had all of these counsels, You had all of

970
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,239
these disagreements. The heretical people who were killed because the

971
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:34,519
idea of the trinity is not there. I never asked

972
00:41:34,559 --> 00:41:36,639
him for the word. He tried to strow man as

973
00:41:36,639 --> 00:41:38,119
if I ask him, where is the word trinity? I never

974
00:41:38,119 --> 00:41:39,840
said that. I said the concept. That's why I started

975
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,320
by defining. He didn't answer John seventeen three, because he

976
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,320
knows it's a thorn in his side. When I said,

977
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,039
Jesus said the only true God is the Father, he

978
00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:50,159
did not respond to that, or he completely ignored it.

979
00:41:50,199 --> 00:41:52,360
I responded to his question about the verses, which verses,

980
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,800
I said to you, I ever agrees with Islam generally

981
00:41:55,079 --> 00:41:57,440
Alan had it. We will accept that this statement is true.

982
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,880
So when it says in John and the Shrowmy sixty four,

983
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:01,480
there's one God, we scept that it's true.

984
00:42:01,519 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 2: No problem.

985
00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:04,559
Speaker 5: Anything which would disagree we were rejected. Like if something

986
00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:07,039
says Jesus died, we will say that it's as corrupted.

987
00:42:07,159 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 2: That is changed.

988
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 5: Now already the biblical scholars agree that the Bible has

989
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:12,840
been corupted. I don't need to do any a lot

990
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,440
of research regarding that. Now what you said, because words

991
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,800
doesn't change change. That verse you quote. It is talking

992
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,239
about a lost promise, and you're quoting him out of

993
00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:24,599
out of context. Like I said, I don't change my words.

994
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,880
I keep my words. We're talking about promises. We're not

995
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,760
talking about the revelation of the previous structures, because Pard

996
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,960
already explains that the revelation of the previous scriptures has

997
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,039
been changed. Now he said, whatever the Father has been

998
00:42:35,039 --> 00:42:37,079
given been given to me. That's clearly not the case,

999
00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:38,960
because Jesus did not know. And he said he didn't know,

1000
00:42:39,079 --> 00:42:40,519
and he said, only the Father knows. And what he

1001
00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:42,440
means by that is not talking about attributes.

1002
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 4: Perfect jade ninety seconds.

1003
00:42:45,119 --> 00:42:47,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, I notice he did not answer the exact challenge

1004
00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:49,960
I gave him. I asked him what the epistemic criteria was,

1005
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,639
and he said that the Quran backs up the promises

1006
00:42:53,679 --> 00:42:55,760
of prior revelation when it's worth so, in other words,

1007
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,159
the Qoran proves the Koran by citing the Koran passages

1008
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,840
in the Old test And yet we read in the

1009
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,039
Qoran that it actually says that you can go to

1010
00:43:05,079 --> 00:43:07,840
the prior revelation to see that the new revelation is

1011
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,599
consistent with it. We have revealed to you a prophet,

1012
00:43:10,599 --> 00:43:14,519
the book of truth, confirmation in the previous scriptures, and

1013
00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:17,880
a supreme authority upon them, So you judge between them

1014
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,119
what Allah has revealed. And now he's admitting what was

1015
00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:26,519
his source. Many scholars say the Bible's corrupted. Oh really,

1016
00:43:26,639 --> 00:43:29,880
so many scholars who are atheist unbelieving. Is what you

1017
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,599
go to, Not to your prophet Muhammad, who said that

1018
00:43:32,639 --> 00:43:35,320
you can go to the prior Jewish Torah scriptures and

1019
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,119
Christian scriptures. Those scriptures confirm, supposedly what's in the Qoran.

1020
00:43:40,519 --> 00:43:43,400
You just said, no, they're all corrupt. So Allah and

1021
00:43:43,639 --> 00:43:46,719
Muhammad are directing me to go to a corrupt book

1022
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:48,920
to prove your book. You don't see how silly that is.

1023
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:50,960
And then when I ask you for a standard, you said,

1024
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,199
the standard is the Koran. But the thing in question

1025
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,320
is the Koran. So you're in a circ goal, a

1026
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,360
circ goal, and it's a fallacy to appeal to authorities

1027
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,039
to say we all know the Bible's corupted. That's a fallacy.

1028
00:44:02,079 --> 00:44:03,440
I know you guys don't know what fallacies are. The

1029
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:09,840
horrem in Islam, logical faulcis right, Logic is Haram. So uh,

1030
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,760
what's the standard again? Okay?

1031
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,199
Speaker 5: Ninety seconds for muscle lantern, he said, I think give

1032
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,000
him act I clearly did I said it agree with

1033
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:23,320
there it is we accepted, disagree to reject it said proves.

1034
00:44:24,039 --> 00:44:27,039
Nobody here is talking about proving there. Nobody's also talking

1035
00:44:27,199 --> 00:44:29,840
about the m proving the Bible.

1036
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,199
Speaker 2: You just misunderstanding things.

1037
00:44:31,199 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 5: Here are you just completing terms and you're just going

1038
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,039
around in circle. Nobody's talking about anything proving anything. I

1039
00:44:36,039 --> 00:44:38,119
already explained to you what the word confirmed their means.

1040
00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:40,440
You clearly don't understand what you're saying. There's nothing there

1041
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:41,960
that says that it is proving it. The first you

1042
00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:44,960
that is refreating you mentioned refety was laughing. How could

1043
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,119
you read this verse I think is supporting you. First

1044
00:44:47,159 --> 00:44:49,079
of all, the chapter five of the Crevers forty eight,

1045
00:44:49,119 --> 00:44:51,679
which you were reading, is refuting you. It is literally saying,

1046
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,400
so judge between them with the Khoran, with allays revealed

1047
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,079
to you, and do not listen to their desires. And

1048
00:44:56,119 --> 00:44:58,400
the next versus the same thing, and you read yourself

1049
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,639
for this is a supreme authority over it, which means

1050
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,960
whatever the Horandic say dictates is a supreme authority over

1051
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,880
the Bible. That's exactly what I've been saying all this time.

1052
00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:07,039
Speaker 2: And I'm laughing.

1053
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:08,639
Speaker 5: How could you read that verse. I think that is

1054
00:45:08,639 --> 00:45:12,360
supporting you. Now this is just is completely ridiculous. So

1055
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,679
now the Koran says it's also corrupted. It's mentioned in

1056
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,239
multiple parts. For example, the Koran says in chapter two,

1057
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,199
verse seventy five, and mentioned chapter two, verse seventeen, how

1058
00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:24,360
they write the scripture of their own hand and declaim.

1059
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:24,559
Speaker 2: It is from God.

1060
00:45:24,599 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 5: You said logic is harm. Nobody said anything about logic

1061
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:26,960
is harm.

1062
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 2: Again, coming back to seventeen.

1063
00:45:30,599 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 5: John seventeen, verse three, what explicitly says the only true Again,

1064
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,400
you're avoiding the question. You're running away from the question. Also,

1065
00:45:37,599 --> 00:45:39,880
we haven't joined Chapter twenty, verse seventy. It says he

1066
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,800
has a god. He says, I'm going back to my

1067
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,320
God and your God. So how can you be god?

1068
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:43,880
And you have a god?

1069
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 2: He didn't say I have a person. I have a father.

1070
00:45:45,599 --> 00:45:46,599
He said father and God.

1071
00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:48,519
Speaker 5: So he has a god above him, and he believes

1072
00:45:48,519 --> 00:45:50,280
the only true God is the Father. And he doesn't

1073
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:51,840
have the knowledge of the hour. And this is what

1074
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,559
we mean by him not being equal to the Father.

1075
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 4: Great Ja ninety after this or ro Jay then lances

1076
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,679
ninety secretation or we could do closing statements finishing with

1077
00:46:00,679 --> 00:46:03,079
a Muslim wlantern because Jay Dyer start is so let's

1078
00:46:03,079 --> 00:46:03,760
go ninety seconds.

1079
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 1: Jay, Now yeah. The argument in both of those passages

1080
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,760
is not judge the prior revelation on the Quran. The

1081
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,840
argument is that they that you can go again to

1082
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,639
eighty five. The messenger believes in what has been revealed

1083
00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:17,400
to him is from his Lord, as so do all

1084
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,519
the believers, his angels, and his books, the books that

1085
00:46:20,559 --> 00:46:23,559
are referenced in many other passages as well. This includes

1086
00:46:23,599 --> 00:46:26,960
six one point fifteen eighteen twenty seven. These are the

1087
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,440
words of Allah previously in the Torah and the angel

1088
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,360
They cannot be corrupted and changed. He believes they're corupted

1089
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:38,199
and changed. Why because atheist scholars said so. And guess what,

1090
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,400
the same atheist scholars don't believe in his books and

1091
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,719
his Quran. They are all the time reject So it's

1092
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:45,800
a double standard. They always do this. They have a

1093
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,840
double standard of citing the atheist scholars who reject the

1094
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,159
Bible but also reject the Quran. And your Quran does

1095
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,800
say many times over that I can go and check

1096
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,719
the previous revelation to be consistent. And then when we

1097
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,280
find out that it's not consistent. You say, oh, that's

1098
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,360
because it's corrupted. So I'm supposed to look at a

1099
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,440
corrupted thing to confirm in a non corrupted thing. That

1100
00:47:06,599 --> 00:47:08,920
makes no sense. That's why when I said, what's the

1101
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,679
epistemic criteria to know the Koran is true? He said,

1102
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,920
the Koran that's a circle. You explicitly affirmed the very

1103
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,079
thing I wanted to affirm that it is a circle.

1104
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:19,760
You said, no one wants to know that. No one's

1105
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,719
asking what's true. I'm asking how do we know it's true?

1106
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,519
What do you mean no one's asking this question. I'm

1107
00:47:23,559 --> 00:47:25,760
asking you this question for the third time. How do

1108
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,320
we know it's true? And in regard to in regard

1109
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,599
to John seventeen three, I said, monarchical trinitarianism, Jesus does

1110
00:47:31,679 --> 00:47:33,480
submit to the Father. That doesn't mean he has a

1111
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,360
different nature than the Father, any more than a son

1112
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,280
sub mandy to a father means he has a different nature.

1113
00:47:39,159 --> 00:47:42,079
Speaker 2: Okay, for ninety seconds, amazing you, Sai.

1114
00:47:42,159 --> 00:47:44,199
Speaker 5: He took from another verse of look because he realized

1115
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:50,440
that I know he's interrupting because he knows he's.

1116
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,599
Speaker 2: Being, and the other verse that he also has nothing

1117
00:47:53,599 --> 00:47:54,400
to do with what you're saying.

1118
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 5: One of the bores this is the books to the

1119
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,639
books that are previous revelations that have been revised to

1120
00:47:59,639 --> 00:48:02,719
previously prophets. When we talk about in that versus, and

1121
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,960
you can you can read it in context, and everyone

1122
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,320
can read that versus and you will see it's talking.

1123
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:10,639
You can read it and you can see it's explicitly

1124
00:48:10,639 --> 00:48:12,440
talking about the problems. For you see how interrupting here

1125
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,760
is because he knows he's being destroyed. Now, it's if

1126
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,000
if the scholars, since the Bible is yes, so you agree,

1127
00:48:17,039 --> 00:48:19,719
I'm happy we agree that the scholars and academy agree

1128
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,199
that the Bible has been changed, corrupting, there's no original, etcetera.

1129
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,400
Now these same eighties scholars and in academy, you will

1130
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,440
see that they admit that I've made videws about this before.

1131
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:29,440
How the Kuran is preserved. You have doctor and Jeric

1132
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,360
and UITs is not almost have elticolage. You have many

1133
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,239
people I can mention now, general boy, I can mention

1134
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,320
many mini names of different people who do believe. Or

1135
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,920
if you's almost but academic that the Koran is preserved,

1136
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,079
there's a whole book strengthen on that. On the manuscripts

1137
00:48:41,119 --> 00:48:42,519
for examples, I'm a new script and how they show

1138
00:48:42,519 --> 00:48:45,320
the preservation of the Koran. Never said the Bible is consistent.

1139
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,960
You're saying, we've been talking about how to prove the Koran.

1140
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,000
We never talked about talking about the Bible is corrupt.

1141
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,880
Has nothing to do with proving the cra Proving the

1142
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:54,760
Kuran has a. I have a video of my channel.

1143
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,000
Everyone is welcome to watch. Is called competic evidence is

1144
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,599
for the truthful Isam. We see the prophecies in the Koran,

1145
00:48:59,599 --> 00:49:01,039
and how do you see all of these different things?

1146
00:49:01,039 --> 00:49:02,440
A little what you mean by proven? Maybe you're talking

1147
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,280
about different things now we are talking about the corruption

1148
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,280
of the Bible. The Bible has been changed. The Bible

1149
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,519
has been corrupted. Is accepted in academia. I'm happy you

1150
00:49:10,519 --> 00:49:12,880
through your whole religion under the puss Oh. I agree

1151
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,320
that the Son is subordinate to the Father, and I

1152
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,639
want Christians to listen to this. He's through everything other

1153
00:49:17,639 --> 00:49:19,280
of us is said. Yes, we agree is subordinate to

1154
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,760
the Father. Excellent. That's what we believe is Muslim Jesus

1155
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,880
is submitting to the Father, and that's what a Muslim is.

1156
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,679
A profect Mohammed was submitting to a lot, and that

1157
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,840
is with the Muslim is okay to Jay.

1158
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 4: Let's do uh five minutes each, five minutes for Jay

1159
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:32,920
and then five minutes for Muslims.

1160
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,679
Speaker 1: Whore wrapping up here? Yeah, six one fifteen. Again, neither

1161
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,599
of the passages that he's talking about confirm what he's saying.

1162
00:49:39,639 --> 00:49:42,280
Sixty one fifteen. The word of the Lord is perfected

1163
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,880
in truth and justice. None can change Allah's words. He

1164
00:49:46,039 --> 00:49:48,639
just admitted that the words of a law in the

1165
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,360
previous passages you heard him say in the last section

1166
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,280
there that no, those verses, those verses are the books

1167
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,000
the message that's talking about, the previous revelations of the prophets,

1168
00:49:57,159 --> 00:50:00,000
which he just said is corrupted when his own career

1169
00:50:00,159 --> 00:50:02,800
on says the word of a law right there cannot

1170
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,639
ever be corrupted. So he's smarter than a law and

1171
00:50:05,679 --> 00:50:10,239
the profit according to his attachment to unbelieving scholars, what

1172
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,360
I pointed out was his double standard and the fact

1173
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,360
that he's going to appeal to the same scholars. Oh,

1174
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,199
but there's a bunch of other scholars that like the Quran.

1175
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,039
This is a fallacy of authority. Appealing to scholars is

1176
00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:22,760
a fallacy of authority. If you think that proves a position,

1177
00:50:23,159 --> 00:50:25,559
you argue that there's a bunch of scholars that debate

1178
00:50:25,599 --> 00:50:27,840
the early Church, so what that has nothing to do

1179
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,159
with proving a position. You could bring in scholars to

1180
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,119
back up a position, but they don't prove anything. That's

1181
00:50:33,119 --> 00:50:36,800
called the fallacy of appeal to authority. So multiple times

1182
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,760
he's made countless fallacies. He doesn't even know what they are.

1183
00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:42,239
I point them out and he laughs and talks past it.

1184
00:50:42,599 --> 00:50:45,000
He appealed to He said that I made many fallacies

1185
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,039
talking about this problem of Allah's relationship to his attributes

1186
00:50:48,079 --> 00:50:49,920
a one in many, which, by the way, he believes

1187
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,480
in an uncreated foot and uncreated shin if he's a Salafi.

1188
00:50:52,639 --> 00:50:55,039
If he doesn't, then he has to metaphorically interpret those things.

1189
00:50:55,079 --> 00:50:58,000
Wait a minute, now, he's afforded the ability to metaphorically

1190
00:50:58,079 --> 00:51:01,480
interpretate interpret these texts, but he doesn't grant that to us.

1191
00:51:01,519 --> 00:51:04,559
When we talk about these passages where Jesus clearly uses rhetoric,

1192
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,559
clearly uses exaggeration. No, no, no, we're not allowed to do that.

1193
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,920
And by the way, he did try to say that

1194
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,559
I have to prove in John one because there's no

1195
00:51:12,639 --> 00:51:16,360
mention of three hypostaces. Hypostasis is mentioned in Hebrews One,

1196
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,280
where it's identified that the son is the eternal son

1197
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:23,480
of the Father and he's equally divine. He constantly misunderstood

1198
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,199
what monarchical trinitarianism is because he doesn't know what it is.

1199
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,559
Because it recognizes this distinction between the father and the

1200
00:51:29,559 --> 00:51:32,440
son in terms of monarchia. That doesn't mean that there's

1201
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,519
a difference in essence. So his whole argumentation this entire

1202
00:51:35,519 --> 00:51:38,920
time was assuming that distinction between the persons necessarily and

1203
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,119
tells a distinction of or a diminution of essence, which

1204
00:51:42,159 --> 00:51:45,039
I said from the very opening statement is not our position.

1205
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,360
So again, Allah's words are not corruptible. He believes they've

1206
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,280
been corrupted. Allah is one, But you heard him use

1207
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,320
analogies to the blackness of his shirt to help me.

1208
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,960
But his own Kuran says that Allah is nothing like

1209
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,159
things in creation. I'm pretty sure your shirt is a creature.

1210
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,199
I'm pretty sure black is a part or an attribute

1211
00:52:06,199 --> 00:52:09,760
of a shirt. So your own analogies refute you. And

1212
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,039
that's why I'm constantly calling you out on a double standard.

1213
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,159
I'm not saying you don't answer by stating your position.

1214
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,199
But like many people who are no good at debate,

1215
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,880
you think answering your position is refuting an argument, calling

1216
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:27,639
out a contradiction. I'm arguing your position contradicts. I'm not

1217
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,960
asking you to restate the position. I'm saying your position contradicts.

1218
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,840
In many ways. These things contradict. The word of Allah

1219
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,519
cannot be corrupted or changed. You just said the prior

1220
00:52:38,559 --> 00:52:40,159
revelations were corrupted and changed.

1221
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 4: Okay, I'll give a final statement to muscle lantern. He

1222
00:52:46,039 --> 00:52:48,000
went around three minutes, if you can keep it three

1223
00:52:48,039 --> 00:52:48,320
to four.

1224
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:49,039
Speaker 1: I thing to be fair.

1225
00:52:49,519 --> 00:52:51,039
Speaker 2: A good problem, all right?

1226
00:52:51,119 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 5: So you mentioned chapter six of La Pran, and as

1227
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,159
I said, already, there's two only two business lefronts about

1228
00:52:56,159 --> 00:52:59,039
doors of all life chapter six and another capt chapter

1229
00:52:59,039 --> 00:53:01,199
eighteen of La Pran. One explicitly talks about the Kuran,

1230
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,119
mentions that the verses of a lot, specifically referring to

1231
00:53:04,159 --> 00:53:07,280
the Qoran, and the other one which she quoted in Sexes,

1232
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,199
talks about it talks about the judgment and the promise

1233
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:10,800
of all. How do you know read the verse before

1234
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,639
a largely justices in the Koran? Is there any judge

1235
00:53:14,639 --> 00:53:16,079
I will take other than a lot? Talking about the

1236
00:53:16,119 --> 00:53:18,800
judgment of a lot, and then it says that that

1237
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,800
with and the promise of your lorder the world, the

1238
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:24,719
judgment of your word has been fulfilled. What he's not

1239
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:30,639
talking about, I'm talking about versus definitely talking about, because

1240
00:53:30,679 --> 00:53:41,079
I already says don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. By

1241
00:53:41,079 --> 00:53:46,199
the way, he's you should other than I let you.

1242
00:53:46,199 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 1: Speak, you should be book don't your time?

1243
00:53:52,559 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 5: Can you please mute him because he's trying. All right, Okay,

1244
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,079
so again we'll say this is very, very very simply

1245
00:53:59,599 --> 00:54:01,719
the verse of the Koran. I mentioned it. I mentioned

1246
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,800
the verse and opening excuse open extedues of the scholars.

1247
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,599
Nobody have said in Islamic history that this is referring

1248
00:54:07,599 --> 00:54:09,960
to the previous scriptures. And I give evidences why this

1249
00:54:10,039 --> 00:54:11,840
is not referring to the previous scriptures, that they are corrupted,

1250
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:13,800
and I give evidences. He give an evidence by himself.

1251
00:54:14,079 --> 00:54:16,519
It's the verse in chapter five. Also I gave chapter

1252
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,599
seventy five, which is clearly this guy doesn't know what

1253
00:54:20,599 --> 00:54:22,800
he's talking about. Now he said, oh, we do metaphours.

1254
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:23,760
Speaker 2: W did I do met before?

1255
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,760
Speaker 5: Or if you're this, if you you don't even know

1256
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,239
what I am. That's that's the problem. You come to

1257
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:27,559
argue with.

1258
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:29,599
Speaker 1: You don't stay where you are, You don't stay where

1259
00:54:29,599 --> 00:54:29,840
you are.

1260
00:54:31,119 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 2: I only state I'm a Muslim. I don't do other

1261
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:33,599
than that.

1262
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,519
Speaker 1: That's deception. You're not you're not. They do this as

1263
00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:41,360
why like us, he knows that's a deception.

1264
00:54:41,599 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 5: It is not like he doesn't understand this. He doesn't

1265
00:54:44,559 --> 00:54:45,039
understand that.

1266
00:54:45,599 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 1: He's freaking out because you got what we.

1267
00:54:47,519 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 5: Call UK waffle in the UK, just someone waffle's few words.

1268
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,000
He thinks he's making big worse. We can confuse the audience.

1269
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,559
Speaker 1: Never answer objection, and he's not allowed to. You have

1270
00:54:57,599 --> 00:55:06,199
to have a schools, no another he's actually he's actually having.

1271
00:55:05,519 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 5: So there's no contradictions. So I was refuting him. He

1272
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,159
came to the black and white shirt and all I

1273
00:55:09,159 --> 00:55:11,280
already told him an analogy to do with the attributes,

1274
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:12,079
not to do with a loss.

1275
00:55:12,079 --> 00:55:13,679
Speaker 2: So I'm not trying to say the shirt is a lot.

1276
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 3: It's an analogy to attributes, not all anything.

1277
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,079
Speaker 1: And the analogy doesn't do anything.

1278
00:55:19,119 --> 00:55:24,639
Speaker 5: That's look Jay left defending supported. He started, urefully, Oh,

1279
00:55:24,679 --> 00:55:26,920
the essence is not as as that. It doesn't matter

1280
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,199
what we can see scriptures, because before all of this

1281
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:34,679
philosophy have been introduced. Now it's philos is that clearly

1282
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:36,800
Jesus was supported, and that's why we have the earliest

1283
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:41,559
groups like the United and did not believe the traditary

1284
00:55:41,599 --> 00:55:43,400
and believes we have the Church Fathers. And I said,

1285
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,000
I can easily give more quotes that they didn't agree

1286
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,039
with the concept that Jay has in his mind. So

1287
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,320
simply Ja has put Jesus under the bus from a

1288
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,039
position that he believes in the trinity. And he clearly

1289
00:55:54,119 --> 00:55:56,159
admitted he doesn't know the hour. It is not the same.

1290
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,039
I think it's he's contradicting himself. This is he doesn't

1291
00:55:58,079 --> 00:55:59,519
know the hour, but at the same time they're not

1292
00:55:59,559 --> 00:56:01,920
equally but at the same time the same. But Heesus

1293
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,320
keeps contradicting himself and going in the same circuit. So

1294
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,239
is it before cold he doesn't really know the hour,

1295
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,440
and there's supported into one another. He doesn't know his

1296
00:56:08,519 --> 00:56:09,239
own positions.

1297
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: And with that I answered everything that he nobody's buying the.

1298
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 5: Lord of Jesus, who he said he's coming back to,

1299
00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:17,079
going back to my God. We asked you to worship

1300
00:56:17,119 --> 00:56:19,199
that Lord that Jesus came to and he said he's

1301
00:56:19,199 --> 00:56:20,719
going to worship. He's going to go back to That

1302
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:22,199
is the lord that we call you to worship, the

1303
00:56:22,199 --> 00:56:24,760
Lord of Jesus, Moses, no profect Muhammad, and peace be

1304
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,280
upon all of the prophet and messengers. And I'll conclude

1305
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,880
here with this cooking. And because it's burning in the kitchen, now, all.

1306
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 4: Right, person, hold on, Jay, I want to get because

1307
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:39,519
he we there was interruptions. I just said that it

1308
00:56:39,599 --> 00:56:41,199
was going to be the closer statements. But because it

1309
00:56:41,199 --> 00:56:43,079
seems like there's more, do you think we could do

1310
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:44,239
one more back and forth?

1311
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:44,639
Speaker 5: Two minutes?

1312
00:56:44,639 --> 00:56:44,880
Speaker 1: Teaches?

1313
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:46,760
Speaker 5: I don't care what both parties I No. I think

1314
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:48,840
that's it's good to edit here. I don't want to

1315
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:49,199
go more.

1316
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to go anymore.

1317
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 2: Right, He keeps repeating the same thing.

1318
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 1: No, I have a three seventy eight, says the book is,

1319
00:56:56,960 --> 00:56:59,639
not three seventy eight, says the book is. So he

1320
00:56:59,679 --> 00:57:02,000
doesn't want any more because he knows he got bodied.

1321
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,679
Speaker 5: We already had a debase. That's bringing up more.

1322
00:57:06,559 --> 00:57:10,559
Speaker 1: Of your problems. I'm not crying. You're the one snickering

1323
00:57:10,599 --> 00:57:13,840
with that because you got cooked. It's all rhetoric.

1324
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 4: Jay, it was nice to meet you, and I appreciate

1325
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,559
you coming on here. This is much more civil than

1326
00:57:19,719 --> 00:57:21,559
the earlier data. I hope to do this again.

1327
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:30,599
Speaker 1: I think this was anytime. Yeah, what a joke, dude.

1328
00:57:30,599 --> 00:57:34,440
That guy was pitiful, dude. Uh And yeah, I I

1329
00:57:34,519 --> 00:57:36,840
butted him many times because this whole thing was resting

1330
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,920
on miss misinterpreting and misunderstanding and ignoring. And uh, I

1331
00:57:41,039 --> 00:57:45,760
hope everybody heard him completely collapse on the attributes and

1332
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:50,559
no idea what monarchical trinitarianism is and what the position is.

1333
00:57:51,079 --> 00:57:53,320
The passages that we're talking about in the Koran. Do

1334
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,559
not say that they're only talking about the Koran. This

1335
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,280
is talking about the text of the Jews and the Christians.

1336
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:01,880
And it's here saying that do not say the book

1337
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,280
is corrupted. Is not corrupt. And on that last passage

1338
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,239
he said, this is talking about all those judgments, not

1339
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:15,039
a book. It set a book. Allah has revealed to you,

1340
00:58:15,239 --> 00:58:19,559
the Torah and the Gospel three three Alaw's words cannot

1341
00:58:19,599 --> 00:58:25,119
be corrupted anyway. I hope everybody clips the heck of

1342
00:58:25,199 --> 00:58:28,639
the heck out of that and shows the parts where

1343
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:33,519
he especially I felt like on the attributes like he

1344
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:37,079
was completely demolished, So everybody should clip that. I hope

1345
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:42,880
that goes viral. We got some super chats here Zalmonics five.

1346
00:58:43,039 --> 00:58:45,440
I'm a lawyer and a Christian I've been practicing. You're

1347
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:47,599
the best debater I've ever seen. This is even in litigation,

1348
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:52,320
thank you. I mean, I think debate and you know, law,

1349
00:58:52,519 --> 00:58:54,280
they overlap quite a bit. In fact, we were watching

1350
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,119
a movie last night that had a lot of courtroom

1351
00:58:56,159 --> 00:58:59,280
stuff going on, and Jamie was asking me we were

1352
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:04,719
talking about debate related issues. Yeah, it is interesting. You

1353
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:08,599
could probably find a lot of parallels with the way

1354
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,760
that I go about and do debate in the way

1355
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:16,320
that lawyers do stuff. I don't actually know a lot about,

1356
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,519
you know, law and litigation and all that, but again,

1357
00:59:18,559 --> 00:59:21,119
I do imagine that there's a lot of overlap there.

1358
00:59:21,159 --> 00:59:28,960
But you know, really it's I guess the comparison would

1359
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,400
be like a lawyer wants to probably trip somebody up

1360
00:59:32,519 --> 00:59:37,840
in their statements, and I'm kind of doing the same thing,

1361
00:59:38,679 --> 00:59:41,280
except that I'm also looking for not just will they

1362
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:44,280
trip up, but are they violating the laws of logic? Right?

1363
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:46,760
So that's a big part of it. You notice that

1364
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,920
guy never he didn't even understand any of the fallacies,

1365
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,320
what the fallacies are, why it's even wrong to make fallacies.

1366
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,079
This is the the death knell of anybody in a debate.

1367
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,840
Fallacies might not be that relevant in a litigation setting

1368
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,079
or in a courtroom, although they might be to some degree,

1369
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:12,719
but that's an interesting question. I imagine they have some

1370
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,800
overlap with a courtroom setting. Jeremiah James five dollars. Muslim

1371
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,320
lantern hasn't had any oil since Mohammed was with Aisha Oh.

1372
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,360
Rachel Wilson one hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Rachel,

1373
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:25,119
appreciate that. That's a big fat super chet. You didn't

1374
01:00:25,119 --> 01:00:27,079
have to give me that, but that's really sweet of

1375
01:00:27,119 --> 01:00:30,519
you appreciate it. And I didn't want. I hope Andrew

1376
01:00:30,559 --> 01:00:36,039
didn't think that I was like streaming over his debate.

1377
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,199
I actually forgot that he was doing that debate tonight.

1378
01:00:39,199 --> 01:00:41,480
I thought that was like several days in the future.

1379
01:00:42,639 --> 01:00:44,800
So anyway, I didn't mean to step over you know

1380
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,400
you guys in terms of streaming time. But thank you

1381
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:48,920
for that. But it sounds like it was kind of

1382
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,840
a it didn't go as planned there well at anual

1383
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,559
five dollars. Thank you for the extra time to patience. Yeah,

1384
01:00:54,599 --> 01:00:56,880
I mean again, I've already been debating for four hours straight.

1385
01:00:57,119 --> 01:00:59,880
So how long was this one? I don't even know,

1386
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:08,440
another hour and a half. It looks like, yeah, what

1387
01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:11,840
did you guys think about this? How do you guys think?

1388
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:16,039
Muslim lantern? Did? I really feel like he was collapsing

1389
01:01:16,079 --> 01:01:19,199
on the attributes part because everything he said about the

1390
01:01:19,239 --> 01:01:26,880
attributes was like, what do you mean that's embarrassing? Jay?

1391
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:29,119
Church fathers under the bus? What are you talking about?

1392
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:31,320
I did throw the church fathers on the bus. What

1393
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:35,880
I said was he was oversimplifying it by saying, do

1394
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,400
the church fathers teach the Trinity? And do they teach

1395
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,679
it without debate? And I said no, they teach that

1396
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,719
the persons are distinct and that there's the divinity of Christ,

1397
01:01:47,199 --> 01:01:50,159
but they do debate things. And so that's why I

1398
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:56,079
didn't agree to his oversimplified questions. So Muslims, you notice

1399
01:01:56,159 --> 01:01:58,719
Daniel did the exact same thing, didn't he. Daniel did

1400
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,239
the exact same thing where Daniel said, I want the

1401
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,840
simple answer. Look how simple Islam is? You guys have complex,

1402
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:09,360
difficult doctrines, but the reality is Muslims also have complex doctrines,

1403
01:02:09,559 --> 01:02:11,920
and so he lied when he said, what is this akida?

1404
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:13,760
I don't know. He knows what akida is. It's the

1405
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,440
different schools. He knows that there's different traditions and that

1406
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,880
they've killed each other over these things. And that's why

1407
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,639
he tried to deflect away from it. Tell me the

1408
01:02:22,679 --> 01:02:26,119
four principles of the kalm like as that that has

1409
01:02:26,159 --> 01:02:28,760
anything to do with the argument I'm making about his position.

1410
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:34,039
So that was all deflections Bryce. But you notice what

1411
01:02:34,199 --> 01:02:36,639
he did the same things as Daniel by arguing that

1412
01:02:37,719 --> 01:02:42,440
you set something up as an overly simple It's called

1413
01:02:42,519 --> 01:02:50,960
a complex fallacy of oversimplication. That's what it's called. Right,

1414
01:02:51,039 --> 01:02:54,239
So the trinity is a complex doctrine, and so you

1415
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:57,360
say something like, I give an example of this, where's

1416
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,480
the verse that proves the doctrine of the trinity is one?

1417
01:03:00,679 --> 01:03:04,159
You see, the trinity can't be proven from scripture. Well,

1418
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,840
the argument assumes that the trinity is a doctrine that

1419
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:11,760
would only come from a verse. So it's a fallacy, right,

1420
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:30,320
oversimplification fallacy is the fallacy of the single cause over

1421
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,599
simplifies a complex issue to imply that a single cause

1422
01:03:33,679 --> 01:03:35,760
produces the same effect. It doesn't have to be causal.

1423
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:38,599
It can also be a false either or right. Either

1424
01:03:38,679 --> 01:03:44,679
the church fathers taught the Trinity or they didn't. Well,

1425
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:46,719
the church fathers did teach the doctrin of Trinity, and

1426
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,079
there was a lot of debate. But he was trying

1427
01:03:49,119 --> 01:03:51,840
to make it like, if there's debate, they didn't teach it,

1428
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,639
and it wasn't clear. Remember, Daniel made this point. He

1429
01:03:54,679 --> 01:03:57,800
said there was debate, and if there's debate over it,

1430
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,559
it's not true. And then Daniel turnround said, Muslims have

1431
01:04:00,639 --> 01:04:03,440
debated this. Oh but wait a minute, Daniel, you said

1432
01:04:03,639 --> 01:04:06,039
that debate means that it's not true if people are

1433
01:04:06,079 --> 01:04:08,000
debating it. So you see how silly these people are.

1434
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,639
John Z one hundred dollars, Thank you so much, you

1435
01:04:10,679 --> 01:04:13,159
destroyed that clown. God Burss, thank you, God bless you

1436
01:04:13,239 --> 01:04:19,239
as well much. Appreciating those fat super chats cards. One

1437
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:22,679
dollar to confirm the Kuran. You go to the Koran? Yes,

1438
01:04:22,719 --> 01:04:25,559
he said that, didn't he He said, no one here

1439
01:04:25,679 --> 01:04:27,880
is asking about proof of the Kuran. I'm asking about

1440
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:29,639
proof of the Koran. What are you talking about? What

1441
01:04:29,679 --> 01:04:31,400
do you mean? Nobody's asking that's the very thing I

1442
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:34,280
asked you more than once you go through the Koran

1443
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:39,639
to prove the Koran exactly exactly, the logic is haram. Exactly,

1444
01:04:40,239 --> 01:04:43,800
logic is haram. Jake Bernitt's thirty three dollars, I recently

1445
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,440
had a debate with a Muslim. He made a similar point,

1446
01:04:46,519 --> 01:04:48,840
saying that the son is subordinate to the father, so

1447
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,719
they're not equal. So something can be subordinate and equal

1448
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:54,800
and distinct in different ways. And every analogy that I

1449
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:57,800
gave was to that effect. A father and a son

1450
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,840
are distinct. The son is co ordinate to the father,

1451
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:05,960
but they have equal nature. The king can invest the

1452
01:05:06,079 --> 01:05:10,800
prince with all the powers of the king. They're distinct persons,

1453
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:14,360
but the king can grant to the prince all the

1454
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:18,840
powers of the king. So they have the same nature,

1455
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,920
human nature, and all the same powers. Remember he said

1456
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:25,000
there is no verse word. Does Jesus say the father

1457
01:05:25,119 --> 01:05:27,599
have given all the power to his son? Yeah, there

1458
01:05:27,719 --> 01:05:31,239
is I read it John sixteen. And then he's like,

1459
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:35,880
this doesn't say trinity, doesn't say hypostasis. Yeah, hypostasis is

1460
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:41,239
using other passages. Dude, please go into more depth about

1461
01:05:41,239 --> 01:05:42,960
the train. So the people that are interested in this.

1462
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:47,159
All of the monarchical trinitarian talks of doctor bo Branson

1463
01:05:47,280 --> 01:06:01,599
cover this in great detail. So if you go to

1464
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,679
bo Branson dot com and you come over here to media,

1465
01:06:05,679 --> 01:06:08,840
I think it's media. Yeah, so bo Branson dot com

1466
01:06:09,039 --> 01:06:13,559
media appearances, and on this page is a five part

1467
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:27,239
lecture series and then other interviews on monarchical trinitarianism. You know,

1468
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:29,639
the funny thing is that the very first thing that

1469
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:34,199
I said answers half of his objections. I in the

1470
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:39,400
first five minutes mentioned monarchical trinitarianism, and then he spent

1471
01:06:39,679 --> 01:06:43,960
half of the damn debate arguing against texts that proved

1472
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:48,679
monarchical trinitarianism. Have you ever brought up First John five

1473
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:54,480
seven to a Muslim? I don't know. Let's see, I

1474
01:06:54,559 --> 01:06:57,039
don't usually because they don't care. On most of the time,

1475
01:06:57,039 --> 01:07:00,440
they don't care about the text. Oh that's the comma.

1476
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:03,159
I mean they're gonna just say, well, that's not in

1477
01:07:03,199 --> 01:07:06,480
all the old manuscripts. So but I mean, there's plenty

1478
01:07:06,519 --> 01:07:08,559
of passes that teacher Trinity. We don't it's not like

1479
01:07:08,599 --> 01:07:14,239
we have to have they in comma. So it looks

1480
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:16,079
like a lot of people are saying they think that

1481
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:21,079
he's one of the worst debaters. He was definitely pretty

1482
01:07:21,159 --> 01:07:27,559
sneaky slippery. Who's is he one of the worst? I

1483
01:07:27,599 --> 01:07:29,559
don't know. I mean that's my that's my only experience

1484
01:07:29,599 --> 01:07:32,800
of that dude. I've never heard or seen anything about him,

1485
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:38,440
So he's kind of sneaky hints sneak Oh but alulah

1486
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:45,519
three dollars crisis King, Yeah, absolutely, yeah, I know the

1487
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:49,639
the yawning comma is uh, I don't I mean, we

1488
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:54,960
call we covered that in the James Snap interview. Sneak

1489
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:58,760
o mods will block Christians in the chat? Well, yeah,

1490
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,440
I mean, look, it islam as not a position that

1491
01:08:02,039 --> 01:08:06,000
relies on logic. It's a position that relies on trickery,

1492
01:08:06,159 --> 01:08:13,519
tomfoolery and sneakery. So what do you expect so voting

1493
01:08:13,599 --> 01:08:20,399
the poll? There's a poll, So yeah, I mean he

1494
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:23,319
just basically went to all the classic dollars script stuff.

1495
01:08:23,359 --> 01:08:25,680
What's funny about all of that? I think that really,

1496
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:27,840
all the dollars script stuff and all of what they do,

1497
01:08:28,279 --> 01:08:31,560
it's really just meant to like try to capture the

1498
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:36,199
low tier, lowest common denominator audience to bring them in

1499
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:40,640
who are aren't interested in any kind of like distinctions

1500
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:44,039
or any kind of nuance. And it's just intended really

1501
01:08:44,119 --> 01:08:47,119
to be a way to capture low tier stuff. And

1502
01:08:47,239 --> 01:08:50,039
then when they deal with people who aren't low tier,

1503
01:08:50,880 --> 01:09:02,000
it becomes very obvious. I think, oh, that's the pull

1504
01:09:02,039 --> 01:09:07,039
from their stream. Oh they have a stream. Well, I'm

1505
01:09:07,079 --> 01:09:13,720
sure all the Muslims are in their stream. So so here,

1506
01:09:14,279 --> 01:09:17,159
let's see here you Yeah, definitely if you want to, Yeah,

1507
01:09:17,319 --> 01:09:21,079
definitely go debate. I mean, oops, there we go. I

1508
01:09:21,159 --> 01:09:29,479
mean vote, excuse me, not debate who won? I think

1509
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:34,239
I won, So I'm gonna say I won, But I

1510
01:09:34,279 --> 01:09:35,880
should do my own poll because I'm sure there's a

1511
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:39,600
bunch of Muslims silent one dollar. It's crazy how Lantern

1512
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:46,000
was using fallacies when he twists your words and just lies,

1513
01:09:46,319 --> 01:09:48,399
and the Muslims eat it up. They don't actually read

1514
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:56,920
their sources. Correct toy five dollars. I recently listened to

1515
01:09:56,960 --> 01:09:59,039
all the Bo Branson lectures on that page because you

1516
01:09:59,119 --> 01:10:02,479
recommended it. Blue my mind is very interesting. Yeah, exactly. Uh,

1517
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:09,079
doctor Branson's monarchical trinitarian talks are are essential.

1518
01:10:09,399 --> 01:10:09,479
Speaker 5: So.

1519
01:10:14,039 --> 01:10:23,479
Speaker 1: Definitely head on over here and watch these. But that's okay.

1520
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:25,119
I mean, the people that want to be idiots and

1521
01:10:25,159 --> 01:10:26,840
they want to be you know, low tier, and they

1522
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,000
want to believe stupid stuff. You're you're never going to

1523
01:10:29,119 --> 01:10:37,359
change people that are not open to what's true. Yeah,

1524
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:39,560
I'll be sure to vote so that these people don't

1525
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:43,479
just promote their own Muslim polls, which is I'm sure

1526
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:51,279
what they're going to do. But straw pole here, and

1527
01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:53,359
keep in mind, I had no idea what's going on.

1528
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:55,560
I didn't even I didn't even know what topic until

1529
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,279
I went in the room. I've already been debating for

1530
01:10:58,359 --> 01:11:05,479
four hours. So there we go. Timate. Oh, no, excuse me,

1531
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:09,039
Italian King ten dollars, good job, Jay, Crisis King, love

1532
01:11:09,079 --> 01:11:13,600
and forgiveness they're lacking nowadays. Yeah, I would agree with that,

1533
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:17,039
Hunter Tyler three fifty five one dollars. Muslims reject Paul.

1534
01:11:17,159 --> 01:11:21,000
Paul is a transgressior in Galatians won it absolutely rexs

1535
01:11:21,079 --> 01:11:23,920
Islam and shows Mohammed as a false prophet. Yeah, Doctor

1536
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:27,079
Feaddigan and Iyas and I have made this point many

1537
01:11:27,159 --> 01:11:33,880
times that the finality of revelation, which is taught very

1538
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,239
clearly even in the Old Testament, that when the Messiah comes,

1539
01:11:36,359 --> 01:11:39,840
the Messianic era. Well, there was an end of divine revelation. Okay,

1540
01:11:40,279 --> 01:11:42,840
there's no new revelations after the death of the Apostles.

1541
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:45,800
That's it. So that right there cuts off all of

1542
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:51,079
the future cults, Mormons, Mohammedan's it doesn't matter, Eric Ze

1543
01:11:51,159 --> 01:11:53,800
three dollars three thirty seven. You're very patient arguing with

1544
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:55,720
a wall like that. Well, they always play this game

1545
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:57,159
where they're like, oh, we want to have a conversation,

1546
01:11:57,239 --> 01:11:58,920
we want to have a conversation, and then they immediately

1547
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:02,880
start with all the tricks, because theirs is a system

1548
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,319
and a position that has to rely on a bunch

1549
01:12:05,359 --> 01:12:08,279
of tricks. So we don't rely on tricks over here.

1550
01:12:08,399 --> 01:12:10,640
I will interrupt people, and I'll call people out when

1551
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:13,359
they start lying and saying something I didn't say. Jake

1552
01:12:13,399 --> 01:12:15,439
Burnett's one dollar. What do you think the Muslims insist

1553
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:18,159
on everything being simple because they're appealing to simple people.

1554
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:22,159
The whole position is about making it simple as a

1555
01:12:22,319 --> 01:12:26,119
sales pitch for simple minded people. So the only people

1556
01:12:26,119 --> 01:12:29,000
who fall for this are people who are unfortunately not

1557
01:12:29,159 --> 01:12:30,800
very sophisticated. Now, I don't want to make it only

1558
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:34,039
an intellectual thing, because not only intellectual right. There's also

1559
01:12:34,079 --> 01:12:37,199
a spiritual delusion component of this too, but spiritual delusion

1560
01:12:37,279 --> 01:12:40,439
effects our intellect, you see, it can darken the intellect

1561
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:44,640
so that we don't have discernment. They always say that

1562
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:46,800
if you can explain the trinity to be simple, then

1563
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:48,680
it's proven, and if not, it's relacious. Yeah, this is

1564
01:12:49,159 --> 01:12:57,159
an oversimplification fallacy. It's also an arbitrary expectation, like I

1565
01:12:57,199 --> 01:13:00,640
could make the same point, make Allah and his relationship

1566
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:03,760
to his attribute it's simple, or else I won't believe it.

1567
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:10,880
You see how silly that is? Well, this that's funny.

1568
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:13,039
If I'm it's funny. Even if I'm two percent I

1569
01:13:13,119 --> 01:13:16,520
had on their pole, this is their Muslim pole and

1570
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:18,960
I'm two percent ahead. That's funny. So you can go debate,

1571
01:13:19,119 --> 01:13:22,960
Go bait up, debate, go vote. Right there, My mind

1572
01:13:23,039 --> 01:13:25,039
is beginning to turn the mush because we're like six

1573
01:13:25,159 --> 01:13:31,560
hours into debate now. But I do appreciate Sneako at

1574
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:35,640
least finally sort of coming around and addressing this because

1575
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:47,760
people have been vote uh calling out sneak oh and

1576
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:51,880
asking him to come debate for a long time. That's funny.

1577
01:13:54,039 --> 01:13:56,800
So they're gonna tell you quick go vote, quick vote

1578
01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:08,920
quick one one one. Yeah, I really, I really think

1579
01:14:09,039 --> 01:14:12,279
they think that if it's simple, it's got to be true.

1580
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:16,840
I mean, did you notice too that he lied, like

1581
01:14:17,079 --> 01:14:19,039
he said, we don't know what is akida?

1582
01:14:19,119 --> 01:14:19,399
Speaker 5: What is that?

1583
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:22,600
Speaker 1: He like, he doesn't know what akita is? And by

1584
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:28,279
the way, Muslims aren't allowed to ignore a school. You

1585
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:32,680
have to be in some school. But he was being disingenuous,

1586
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:36,319
right and acting like I don't know what this word is.

1587
01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:39,159
What are these what's what are the schools? And acting

1588
01:14:39,319 --> 01:14:43,840
like they don't disagree amongst themselves. Come on, I hope

1589
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:52,319
everybody saw how ridiculous that was. Right, Akda creed? Which creed?

1590
01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:54,520
Which school of Islamic theology? Are you a part of?

1591
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:56,760
What is akida? I don't know what is this world?

1592
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:57,720
I don't know his word?

1593
01:14:57,840 --> 01:14:59,039
Speaker 3: What is this work made up?

1594
01:14:59,119 --> 01:15:02,399
Speaker 1: What are you taking up words? Doesn't know what it mean?

1595
01:15:05,119 --> 01:15:07,520
And what have we done? But call out people like

1596
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:10,319
Jake and the others that change their akida depending upon

1597
01:15:10,359 --> 01:15:13,119
the debate that they're in, which you're not allowed to do,

1598
01:15:14,359 --> 01:15:16,359
but you are allowed to do it in a religion

1599
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:19,039
that's deceptive and allows you to lie and trick and

1600
01:15:19,159 --> 01:15:21,439
do all this to do this trickery. So I guess

1601
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:23,520
they are allowed to do it, even though technically they're

1602
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:26,520
not allowed to do it. What is this Adida? I

1603
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:29,039
don't know what Adidas? Are these shoes?

1604
01:15:29,159 --> 01:15:30,039
Speaker 5: What is the shoes?

1605
01:15:30,159 --> 01:15:33,399
Speaker 1: Looking a black shirt like a law has parts but

1606
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:35,840
he doesn't have parts. It's an analogy to help you

1607
01:15:36,039 --> 01:15:37,720
with my shirt, but it's done like a lot. You

1608
01:15:37,760 --> 01:15:41,800
see how silly this was. This was so bad. But

1609
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:46,680
even their own poles, they're having a hard time, even

1610
01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:50,800
even their own poles. Look at that ten percent above

1611
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:59,479
in their own pole. Oh man, Muslim take loss. Muslim

1612
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:07,680
take a big l Okay, I'm about totally exhausted now,

1613
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:09,479
so thank you guys for all of this.