Speaker 1: What is up, FELLOWSI goos. I am dan fa Valley
coming at you once again from the future because I
just talked to Jason Patt, the editorial director at Clunch
Points and also the co host of the Cash Considerations
podcast with Ricky O'Donnell. We just talked about the Chicago Bulls.
It's their turn to go under the look ahead microscope
for this coming season very quickly. Just be sure to
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bu Lls Underscore Jay. It'll also be on screen and
in the podcast and YouTube descriptions. Conversation was great. We
get into all things Bulls, individual players, the way that
they're going to look into play, their direction, the whole nine.
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Knocks out there. But that's enough out of me. Let's
get to talking about the twenty twenty four twenty twenty
five Chicago Bulls with Jason Pat Jason, welcome back to
the Hardware Knocks podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.
I believe I don't know if you know this. It's
your fourth year coming on for the Bulls look Ahead,
So this us running it back is almost a half
decade old. You how are you feeling, knowing with that
knowledge in your in your basket?
Speaker 2: I mean, basically running it back kind of like the
Bulls did for three years. I guess they didn't make
it to the fourth year. Now that we're talking about
them actually kind of rebuilding, making moves. I don't know,
they've obviously made some moves. They're obviously going in a
somewhat different direction. But yeah, I mean that's crazy. Always
love joining you, so thanks for having me again.
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate your time. Don't want to take up
to too much of it. So we need to dive
right in here. And I have to start with this
before even getting into just the individual moves that happened.
What in the actual hell do we make of this
off season? Because I think on its face, it's you
got rid of de Rosen and Cruso, so it's oh,
are you taking a longer view but your asset management
of both and the returns or just I think confusing
would be like the you know, the best way to
frame it's like, what does this off season say about
what the Bulls are trying to do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean I was hoping that they would pivot,
I mean finally again, running it back again and again
these last couple of years mediocrity basically against since Lonzo
Ball got hurt and he still is not back, although
he says he's gonna come back this year. We'll see,
but I mean running it back, they did it, they waited,
They did it at least one too many times this
past season. There was no reason to run it back
basically again with the same core, so like they needed to.
They needed to do this. Of course, the fact that
they waited so long to do it is how the
asset management gets bungled. Before last trade deadline, Alex Crusoe,
tons of rumors out there about teams wanting him. I
think the Warriors wanted him. They were rumblings about there
being like I mean, first round picks on the table.
I don't know about two, but like I know, there
was a rumor about like a Warriors offer that was
like pretty substantial and they turned it down. I mean,
and also like we even go to as Andre Drummond
two is gone, there were rumors that they had two
second round picks at least on the table from the Sixers.
They didn't take that and ends up signing with the
Sixers anyways, which is hilarious and like the Damar situation too. Obviously,
Damarrow was great for the Bulls this past season. I
mean again, he was really good. He saved their ass
in a bunch of games, and they still only won
thirty nine games of course, and couldn't even get out
of the Plane tournament. But like tomorrow, I mean, they
could have tried selling him at the deadline they could have.
I mean, honestly, I've mentioned this on our podcast before
Cash Considerations that a couple of year and a half ago,
basically two deadlines ago, the Bulls were like seven games
under five hundred like that or something like that. They
were going nowhere. They could have They could have kind
of just pivoted. Then I'm sure Damar with like a
year and a half left, he's still playing good, Like
get something for him, then get something of value, then
maybe a trade crew so then too, they could have
gotten something great for Cruiser at the deadline at this
passed to mine either way, like they had multiple outs
to pivot, they didn't do it. The reasoning behind it,
the front office has said this year like, oh, like
we owed it to DeMar to like keep him more
on him, like go for the playoffs. What stupid, very dumb.
And that's obviously why they kept Cruso too. And then
with the actual moves that happened Caruso for Giddy, I know,
like when that trade happened, I was like, oh, let's
wait to see the draft pick compensation none zero. Of course,
there's a straight up the Bulls clearly targeted Josh Giddy
at like his lowest point of value after he got
benched by the Thunder in the playoffs, and but they
really like him. He'll probably put up good stats. Well,
I know, we'll talk more about him later. And then
with Damarrow, like at this point again he's as a
hitting a free agency. They got what Chris Duarte and
like a second round pick whatever it was, one second
pick two, I don't even remember how many pick picks,
but the actual like first round asset went to the
Spurs because the Bulls didn't want to tick on Harrison
Barnes's contract because the luxury attack stuff. So like you
could argue the Spurs basically got like the best asset
out of that deal when they probably could have gotten
I mean, maybe they could have gotten the first for
tomorrow again off two deadlines ago. Maybe they could have
gotten something better for him the last deadline, but no,
I mean they owed it to Tomar to go for it,
and what did that? What did they have the show
for it? Not even making the playoffs the last two years,
losing in that second playing game, and not a whole
lot of assets because you're going in this rebuild now,
but you're like not really getting you have like no,
like now real plus assets like maybe Josh Giddy turns
into one again. We'll talk about him later.
Speaker 1: Pretty down assets, right because of that pick that probably
won't convey to the Spurs, but could, Like don't they
still owe that twenty twenty five pick?
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and that too, And that's that's gonna be
a big part of this upcoming season is they owe
a top ten protected pick to the San Antonio Spurs
for when they got tomorrow in twenty twenty one. Uh
So they do have incentive to be bad this year.
So like the pivot I think is a good direction,
but they waited so long to do it. They kind
of screwed themselves with their asset management. And now you're
kind of playing from behind with this rebuild, and the
front office has said like, oh, like we're not really rebuilding,
like we're kind of rebuilding, but like we're getting experien
against young players in here to rebuild. Like they've said
they don't really want to play through the draft, which
is troubling. So like it is kind of confusing what
they're what they're actually trying to do. Again, I do
like that they moved on from Damar bring Damar back
with it a single single, the same thing. Again, Damar
was great. He was so much better than I would
expected him when they signed him to that deal. So
many people mocked that signing three years eighty one, like, oh,
that's way too much for Damar, And he outplayed that deal.
He earned the contract he got from the Kings. It's
just the Bulls were right to not give that to him,
but again they waited so long. At least they got
something instead of him straight walking, but it still wasn't
that much. And now they're still trying to trade Zach Lavine,
They're still trying to trade Nikola Gucevich, and it's just
kind of like a weird place with the team right now.
But yeah, long way of saying, I'm not really sure
what's gonna happen and what like their actual goals are
for the next year or two, but they do have
incentive to be bad again with that top ten productive picky.
I want them to be bad this year. And if
they can be fun bad this year and they keep
that pick and it stays in the top ten, I
would be totally happy with that.
Speaker 1: So when you look at this team, then what is
the storyline or whatever that you're gonna be following the
biggest story that you're gonna following most closely throughout the season.
Speaker 2: It's a good question. I mean, I think that people
will be tracking the draft pick. That's gonna be a
big one. Like if you're like you're you're I mean
they're rebuilding. They want to say, oh, they're not like
rebuilding rebuilding, You're rebuilding like Damar's gone, You're trying to
drade Zeclavine. You're trying to get rid of the Kolvu
switch even though they're still here, Like they clearly don't
want Zach doesn't want to be here. He doesn't want
it to be for a long time. Vouch is thirty four,
he's on the decline. Like those guys are gonna be
on their way out too, Like the rebuilding, So like
losing the pick this year would be really hard to swallow,
Like the only way that that would be good is
so I guess this kind of plays into the other storyline.
Are there the young guys they do have? Like are
they gonna take a big leave? Is like Josh s
Gitty gonna they're gonna make in the starting point guard?
Like is he gonna find his game again, is Patrick
William's gonna take the actually weighted leap? Is Kobe White
canna take another step forward after finishing second and most
Improved Player voting. I would assume another good young player
like those guys gonna step forward and like, can they
make the bulls? Would they make the bulls? Good enough
to lose that pig like cod that happen? Like you
could maybe stomach like them if they were good enough
to finish outside the top ten? Uh? Maybe? And then
I get I mean, of course, like the vuochin Zac
stuff will be something to follow all year two, Zach Again,
We'll talk about those situations individually in a bit, but yeah, pick,
keeping the pick while developing young guys is basically story
of the season for me.
Speaker 1: I want to ask this just because this has the
potential to become most dated, if anything we're gonna talk about.
Speaker 2: Do you think the.
Speaker 1: Perception we talked about this a little bit last year too,
has veered a little bit too far away from Zach
Lavine being a excuse me, useful player because I get
the reputation, I get the defensive stuff, I get never
making like a quote unquote leap as a pass or
even though the assist numbers can be there. I get
that you've just never been a part of a good team,
but I still just maybe naive, but I just want
to see. I look at his contract and I don't care.
That's one, like I just don't care. And then two
and my naive just be like I love to just
see what he looks like outside of the incompetent version
of Minnesota. And then whatever the fuck this Bulls team was,
like organization was while he was there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I do think it has like on
swung the other way because there was like the stuff
for this offseason, they're like all the Bulls they're gonna
like have to include a first round pick or like
even multiple It's like, get off his deal, Like I
get the deal is not good, but like as the
whatever the cap is gonna be rising with this new
media rights agreements that are coming in, like there's that's
gonna take big jumps, so then the future max contracts
are gonna be much bigger. And then like a year
or two like his Agay, yeah, he's got what three years,
one hundred and forty million or whatever it is left,
Like that's a lot for a guy who's has not
said healthy the last couple of years or he's had
some surgeries. Uh, he's obviously wanted out. And like last
year he just did not look good because he didn't
really want to be there and he was also hurt.
So like I get like his value was certainly like
not looking good. But like if he comes back and
like I've seen some videos of him this summer, like
he's looking pretty good. Great, and uh but if it
went healthy like two years ago, he ended the year
really really strong. If you I mean, if you look
at like the last couple of months of two seasons ago,
I mean he was putting up I think twenty five,
twenty six, twenty seven a game pretty efficiently. He basically
won them that Raptors playing game. Don't look at the
stats from the Heat playing game, but uh well those.
Speaker 1: Things just who even tracks. I've never even looked at
playing stats.
Speaker 2: Who track? It was funny because yah that like Raptors
playing there, I think he had like thirty some points,
sayd the big comeback, and then the Heat game he
was like three or fifteen from the fielders. Something that
was almost like quintessentials act, just like consistency not always there,
but I mean still he was mostly consistent that second
half of the year, and then last year were just
some masks, Like again he was the team started terribly.
He didn't want to be there. I mean he'd been here.
He's been there like seven eight years now, and for
a guy to be on a team this bad for
this long and be like an ulstar caliber players like
kind of crazy that he's still on the teams, Like
you understand why he wanted out. And then he like
came back from his the injury and then it was
like kind of was whatever, and then whatever he had
foot surgery. I know people were like, oh, like he
already was gonna go to the Pistons and he's like,
I'm just gonna get surgery. I don't think that's actually true,
but I know people have their conspiracies. But long way
of saying, I do think he's kind of underrated at
this point. Like there's no way it should take like
multiple picks to like get off of him. He's still useful.
You send him to a lot of these teams, Like
he still can really help you as a really good
shooter and a guy who can drive and score efficiently.
I understand second Apron and all the new CBA rules
and like the team building stuff is a bit more
difficult to take a guy who's making forty five million
a year and if he's like your third best player,
I know that can be kind of tough, but I
would still think you could at least make make a
value neutral trade for him. So like, ultimately, like I
do think some of the negativity towards Zach is over
the time. I know you've also and there's also been
the stuff that's all, he's like hard to play with.
Like I know there were rumors about him and Demart
not meshing that grade, and like there was some stuff
about him and Billy Donovan, like just that I think
he was kind of I know, we got upset a
couple of years ago about he got him getting benched
and crunch time. I was at that game and it
was one of the worst games he's ever played. The
absolutely just be benched. But like there have been rumors
that he's like kind of held back grudge against Billy,
So like whatever, the stuff about all, maybe not the
best teammate, not the most coachable, but I don't know,
I mean from whatever, for most of the things you see,
like he's have a pretty good uh face and a
lot during a lot of losing. He's been through a
lot of losing in his career. Some of that is
his fault. He is not an alpha guy, like you're not.
He's not a guy that's gonna like raise your floor
really high, like I feel, I think he could raise
the ceiling of some contenders. So like, so I was hoping, like, oh,
maybe something. If the team's missed out on maybe their
top targets, they could turn to Zach Lavine. Clearly that
hasn't happened yet. It's gonna have to come back and
show that he can still play this season. It will
be interesting how he kind of fits into the roster.
But yeah, we will see. It's definitely something to watch.
Speaker 1: Would you do You mentioned like a net neutral trade
where it's like if the Warriors the Lakers are coming
calling with just basically shorter term contracts or some expiring contracts,
and maybe Moses Moody is in there in the Lakers case,
like maybe nobody's I don't even know if they put
don't Connect in there. But are you at the point
where because of I don't view Zach Lavine is like
someone who can sabotage the development of others because he
can do so much off the ball. But like, just
to ensure that the Bulls are kind of all in
on the players that matter more to them long term,
would you consider making them like where you're just not
getting a pick or the equivalent of the pick.
Speaker 2: Right, Like I would love to get a first, but
I mean just I mean, based on how the league
apparently views him, like, it just doesn't seem like that
might be realistic. I mean, maybe some team gets desperate.
I mean I would take Yeah. I mean, Moody's kind
of like a young guy who maybe hasn't gotten the
best opportunity. Maybe he can in a rebuilding situation, maybe
he can flourish. I got an absolutely yeah if it was.
I know, what was the rumor that was out there,
like the Bulls it was like zen for like CP
three and Wiggins, I think, and I think the Warriors
turned it down. Was I think the rumor that.
Speaker 1: Was honestly, maybe the Warriors still thought they were gonna
get like Paul Georgie or Lowry Market. The Bulls said,
we'll take let's say GP two, Kevon Looney Wiggins and
like if you had to include Moody in there, I
think the Warriors are bonkers for not doing that personally,
one because I'm a Moses Moody like die Hard, and
the fact that they haven't really given him enough run.
I just want to see him free. But yeah, if
they said no to that, I think that's stupid too.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so yeah, But like to answer the question
of the value neutral, yes, I think that just at
this point, they just need need to part ways again.
He's been on the team now seven eight years and
like he seven years Oh my god, I mean how
older we had Jimmy Baller trade twenty seventeen, Like that's
it's absolutely crazy. So like I think they just both
sides just need to split again. Zach, he's been a
pretty good soldier throughout all this time and all this losing,
but it clearly doesn't want to be here anymore. And
I get it, like the team has not been good
almost every year he's been here. Wants to go to
a better situation. I mean he's twenty nine thirty now
at this point, and he's had these knee surgeries. I get,
I get it. So like I don't be gard him
at all for wanting out, And there was reporting out
there that like Ak was not happy that Zach kind
of went to them and said I want out. It's like,
well why not? Like whatever? Man Like he's trying to
take his future in his own hands. He's been through
a lot of losing, Like it's totally fine. It's not
like he's causing a scene or anything. So like, if
there's a value neutral trade where you don't have to
give up bassets to do it, why yes, I think
this need to kind of part ways and kind of
break this thing off finally. So again, if you can
play well enough I guess to start the season, maybe
it'll happen. Maybe it'll take another season to where he's
only got two years left on that deal. I believe
he doesn't think he's got a player option that last year.
Maybe maybe it will take another full season of showing
that he's healthy. But if something comes to the table
where again they're not giving up something like important for him,
I think he's kind of got to move on.
Speaker 1: I don't have any strong thoughts about Vooch really, so
I very simplanter, who is more likely to be on
this team past the trade deadline, Zach Lavine or Vouch, that's.
Speaker 2: Kind of tough. I my strong thought it I just
need vooch gongs. I can't stand watching him on the
bulls anymore. And just like I feel like he's gonna
he's kinda kind of get in the way, like you
talk about like Zach won't kind of like sabotage anything.
Like I think Zach can theoretically fit in with what
they I think they kind of want to play fast
and oh, here's Josh Giddy. We're gonna have him just
get out on the break and like pass the ball
over the place to Zach to Kobe and do all that. Vuch.
We know he's he's a plotter, wants his post touches.
He hasn't shot well at all in the last few years,
so like just does not seem like he's a fit
at all for what they're what they're going for at
this point, Like I just need him out of here.
I'm like, I'm sick of watching him play. Like he's
obviously bad at defense. Do you like he can still
put up numbers? So ultimately, with again back to your question,
like with Zach's contract, I do want wonder if he's
still gonna make it through the season, and they do
find Booch was he still I Meanch is making twenty
million a year, he's still got he's got that third
guaranteed year, which there's no hindsight at how bad that
contract was when they signed it. I said when I
saw it was three years sixty million for Buch, absolutely
terrible when they signed it. Proving to be true, especially
this offseason when we see Jonas Valentunez who's around the
same age, uh, probably around the same quality player he
signed for basically half of that, uh, giving like why
you gave Ooch three years sixty million fully guaranteed when
they were clearly could have like pivoted away from this roster,
absolutely insane, but for twenty million for again, if they
could or a year and a half of Booch with
somebody who needs a big man, maybe trade for him.
I could see maybe that over someone again taking Zach's
condact to so big. So I guess I would guess
Wooch could be traded first, or like Zach would make
it through the year. It just seems like and just
pasting all the reporting like people I can say Zack's
underrated based only just like what people around the league
seem to think of him. It just seems like everyone
does not want any part of Zach Levine, and just
like I do, one of the Bulls, just one of
the Bulls will not take a neutral trade. I mean
maybe they would, but like if they're not gonna be
holding out for all, we need at least like one
first round pick, like one good young player, like and
if no one just gives it to him, like he
might have to play the full season. So I guess
I would. I I kind of think both will end
up being gone by this deadline, but I kind of
think that Zach would have a better chance of making
it there. I'll probably be totally wrong about that, but
just the the big just how big that contract is
and how how people around the league just seem to
feel about him. It's just tough.
Speaker 1: I guess I just view it as, yeah, the view
is not great of him, But it does feel like
just because there have been teams that have been mentioned
that they're at least suitors who are waiting for the
best they're asking price, whereas I don't have a suitor
for Vouch. Like this is just I'm not saying he's
a terrible player, but like I don't, I don't have
the team like I just like you're not if you're
New Orleans who needs a big Like sure, but like,
why not have just kept Yona Valentunas on the money
that he got rather than go out and trade for Vouch.
Speaker 2: And with and with the Vuci something we've talked about,
like looking at the roster the Pelicans like one to one,
there's just no trade the Pelicans and the Bulls can
make like they have a bunch of high uh salary
guys and then there's like the one like mid level
contract that would like kind of match up the Booch
is like Herb Jones and like obviously think they're not
trading Herb Jones for Nikola Vucevic. Like the other idea
is like if they do end up trading Ingram, like
can the Bulls get in on a three way trade
and get Vouch to New Orleans so like he'd be
their big man and whatever Ingram goes somewhere else? Uh
and there's some other salary involved like maybe that, but yeah,
why wouldn't they just resign Jonas for whatever level? Basically yeah,
basically the middle of a three years, thirty some million
whatever was half of Vouch's annual salary, Like why not
just keep him so? Like yeah, and then like otherwise
where is the I mean I've thought about the Warriors
of Booch too, like theoretically, like it's still a good
passing big man. He could still rebound, like he'd be
better than Kevan Looney. Uh probably a Looney kind of.
I feel like it's kind of fallen off a bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like twenty years in one yea, I don't
know what happened.
Speaker 2: So like there might be all to be a match
there because that the Warriors do have. I mean obviously
they got some of these young salaries they have. They
have Looney, I can't remember what his salary is. They
have him that they could throw in Peyton I think
is making with a eight nine million like there are
there might be I know, both teams that the Warriors
are right up against the hard cap, the Bulls are
right au against the attack. So like, I know there's
like some salaries stuff that would have to like fit
up just like perfectly to make it work. But I
mean maybe again maybe the Warriors, because I mean the
Warriors situation is just so interesting because of what Steph
is still playing at a pretty high level. But they
and they strike out on Paul George and Lowry Markten
like they feel like they need to do something. Not
that Nicole Vucevich would be that exciting, but again I
think like fitting in her system would make like as
a good passing big man, a strong rebounder, just a
guy with size, and they could another guy who can
at least I guess, kind of give the ball to
and score not that efficiently, but maybe take a little
pressure off stuff. But so like maybe then, but yeah,
you look at anywhere else and for like I think I
considered the Thunder at some point, but like they got
Isai Hartenstein, so like that's off the table. Yeah, I
don't know who else would want food, So that that
does is a problem when it comes to I thought
about the Spur.
Speaker 1: It is like a backup big behind Wemby if the
Bulls would take back Zach Collins or someone. But that's
just a weird. I wouldn't trust Pop to not try
and play him with Wemby, and I just have no
desire to see like Weny just needs to be the
lone big.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, which is still like a useful player,
but he really should be a backup at this point. Again,
he sput thirty four to thirty five and he can't
defend worth of lick. His efficiency has never been that
high because he doesn't get to the line, and now
his three point shooting is fallen off. He puts up
the great box score stats, so like kind of masks
the ineffectiveness of him overall, like he should not be
playing thirty to thirty five minutes a game anymore. That's
without questions, like he could help someone as a backup.
But again he's making twenty million this year and twenty
million guaranteed next year, so that also does make it tough.
So it's so this question is just like no one
wants really either of these guys. So like I was just,
I'm Zach is clearly the better player and has a
better chance. He's what three or four years younger, has
the better chance of helping a team, but the contract
is twice as big, So it's it's just tough. It's
just tough to find something that matches up right now.
But again, there's a long time between now and the deadline,
and maybe they maybe Zach looks good. Maybe Booch helps
his numbers. Josh Gitty's gonna get booed. Maybe some Josh
Kitty Booch pick and roll well do some damage on
the Josh Gitty front.
Speaker 1: It like Booch almost feels a little bit important because
you need spacing around Giddy as of right now, like
I just to make the most of him. So do
you think that the Bulls have, like I mean, even
signing Jalen Smith helps, Like it seems like the theory
was we're very much gonna try and taylor this team
to Josh Getty strengths and weaknesses, which you know that's
a choice, but like you think that they have assembled
like enough spacing to put Josh Guiney in his optimal
situation to be all right, let's really see what Josh
Guiney looks like when he has the keys of an offense.
Speaker 2: I mean theoretically sure, I mean, especially if you do
have SEG and Booch should not be considered a space
or anymore. Again, I think the last couple of years
he's been sub thirty percent from three and like.
Speaker 1: He takes back to a game two or three game though, So.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he actually takes like four and it's
really ugly, maybe three or four either way. I don't
know if at this point like teams considered one that's
still like Jalen Smith Jala Smith. I'm also not totally
sure if he can actually shoot, Like if you look
at like his career stats, like it's kind of up
and down. He was obviously I think he was definitely
a tyrese Haliburton merchant last season. He did shoot well though,
and if that is for real, like that should theoretically help.
And you got Kobe and Patrick Williams has been a
good percentage three point shooter. Again, he's sometimes been hesit
the volumes out really there, but percentage wise he's like
always over forty percent. If you got Kobe, Zach Pat
if can get back over thirty percent, I guess. And
you have Jalen Smith who showell last year, and like
you got Iow off the bench who shot really well
from like I wouldn't consider him like a shooter either,
but he's at least pretty capable. Do they have like
enough shooting I mean probably not like they would. They
don't have like a guy. I guess with Zach coming
back that does help. And Kobe is pretty good too,
but I wish they just had like some guy off
the bench, or a couple guys off the bench. Jesus, sure,
why not If Lonzo plays like a minute the year,
I would consider that a win. He I mean, he
says he's gonna do it, but who knows. It's like,
is there really enough? I don't know. I mean, Josh
Gitty and me if we don't just like use this
to talk about Josh Kitty in general, Like tailoring a
team around Josh Kitty probably not a great idea, Like
is he gonna put up some stats this year? Absolutely,
Like we saw him run Australia, Like he's gonna he's
gonna put up like seventeen seven and seven or something
like that, and like he'll have some fun triple doubles
and make some cool passes and like, oh, it's all great,
but like, is that gonna actually impact winning? Again? I
don't care about winning this year, but like long term,
they viewed Josh Gitty as like foundational piece of the rebuild,
like he's gonna be the starting point guard for this
rebuld moving forward, Like he still just has so many
flaws that is it worth it to tailor a team
around Josh Kitty. I mean, you can't really doesn't get
to the line. We know he can't shoot very well
and he's gotten a little better, but he's still no
one don't care.
Speaker 1: That's the thing. There's like, and I talk to people
about this all the time. There's a difference between like
floor spacing and your shooting percentage because it's just like
defense don't and we saw it happen in the postseason.
It's he shot well from three for much of last year,
but was like defenses don't care. They don't view him
as a threat. So even if he's like beyond the arc,
like he's not spacing the floor.
Speaker 2: For right, Yeah, and so you're not spacing the floor,
it's not a good defensive player. Doesn't really get to
the paint again, doesn't get to the line like he's
he's he's got like the funky in between game and
it's like floaters and his runners and shit like that,
which great, like you can hit some shots like that,
but like that's not like a sustainable way to like
run a high level offense as like the starting point guard.
So it's just like that's very skeptic about Josh Gitty.
Am I gonna say like he is a finished product, like, oh,
he's like a terrible no, no, no, I mean some
people will say, like he's just a terrible player, and like,
I mean he was pretty terrible in some of those
playoff minutes. I mean, it's definitely not a good sign
when the team gets better around you and then you
just fade and ultimately get benched. A player.
Speaker 1: Says a lot about your ability to adapt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's not a good sign that when you
have Shay and you have Jalen Williams taking a step
forward at check plays last year, that that basically you
need the ball in your hands to be any type
of effective. And even with the ball in his hands,
like he's not that good like a couple of years
ago when the Thunder obviously took a step forward a
couple years ago and they're like five hundred, and that's
when like everyone wants to point, oh, Josh Kitty second season,
he put up these big stats, but like I'm pretty
sure you looked at his impact numbers, like some of
the on off stuff, like it wasn't very good and
like the team was still mediocre, and that was with
Shay like turning into like Shay of now, uh.
Speaker 1: They were at one point that year like they were
trusting Jay Dubb to run the non Shaye units. More
like you were more likely to see Jay Dub play
without both Giddy and uh shit Shay than you were
likely to see Giddy play without Jay Dubb.
Speaker 2: And right, So, like again, I'm not gonna just be
totally I'm not gonna be totally out on him. I
do question like what it seems like they want to
or it seems like they really believe in him. And
if you're gonna trade Alex Crusoe is arguably your best
trade hip, you target Josh Gitty at basically like his
lowest value. For what happened, Like that they clearly they
wanted him, Like they could have probably shopped CRUs around
for some a better package of draft picks, they wanted
Josh Gitty. So like they clearly believe in Josh, they
can think they can get the most of him. I
can have major questions about that thought process, but I'm
not gonna say that Josh Gitty at what is he
twenty two only still a very young player. There's still
probably some room to grow there. He's gonna put up
numbers obviously. The other question Marke there is the contract
he is, Yeah, look he's gonna contract year. You gotta
pay him soon. I really hope they do not extend
him this like now would be.
Speaker 1: They did, though I'm not I'm not even trolling, but
like if I would target him.
Speaker 2: I would be surprised. I would. Yeah, I mean I
think like because I think like he's not. I think
he like why would he sign a contract right now
when he's coming off the year that he did, Like
the Bulls would have to offer him a lot. The
Bulls have no even if they targeted him and like him,
there's no reason to offer him a lot right now,
Like you haven't seen him play on your team yet,
like you like if he comes out and it's just
like not that good this year, but you locked him
into this long term contract, Like what are you doing?
Like why would you do that? It's like I just
it's hard to see them, like the sides matching up,
like he's gonna get me an approve it year. Like
so then he figures, oh, they're gonna make me the
starting point guard. I'm gonna put up some big numbers
this year. I'm gonna inflate my my, my value, and
then they'll pay me a big money as a shooted
free in a row, or they signed him before he
hits for shooted preec. That seems like the most likely outcome,
and I hope it is. I do have concerns that
if he does put up just big numbers but on
a shitty team and like that they pay him too
much just because again question marks about his actual impact
on winning down the line. But if he actually has
like an actual good season and the Bulls are better
than expected, then maybe he'll have actually deserved a big concience.
But I just hope they don't do that this offseason.
Speaker 1: As you already mentioned, Kobe White, second and most improved player,
I actually think he ended up being my pick because
I had Scottie Barnes and Jalen Johnson ahead of him,
and neither of them qualified because of the games played,
so he might I think I think I ended up
picking him. I can't remember, But do you worry at all?
Just based off like, Okay, Zach Levine's coming back and
now we're gonna put the ball in Josh Getty's hands
about the Bulls adversely impacting the strides he made last year.
Do you just look at it as he's so good
off the catch, he knows that also just catch and go,
not just shoot that it really shouldn't matter.
Speaker 2: So I don't know about like adverse, like him going
like backwards in a big way. I think he's good
enough now, he's developed his game enough now off the dribble,
he's he's tightened up his handle so much and he's
just gotten way more crafty with the ball. We know
we can shoot and he's kind of streaky still, but
he I mean, he had a really long stretch last
season where he was just on fire. I think he's
kind of petered off by the end of the year
beause he was playing forty minutes a night for like
three or four more. Shit, He's just never played that much.
So like theoretically, if he doesn't have quite as much
responsibility and he still gets a lot of minutes, like,
I don't think he'll go backwards, Like will he take
the next step? That could be a question mark with
Giddy playing point with Zach back and they I mean
they still have I had assumo there. We'll see if
Loonzo plays at all. We'll see if Patrick Williams gets
more opportunities with the ball. So like I'm there with
that word, yeah, Kobe taking a step back. I am
curious if he can take another step forward or if
like what we saw last season was his peak, which
would be totally fine, because a couple of years ago
I was calling for the trade Kobe White. I thought
he was like nothing is Oh, he's nothing more than
like an ok bench guy. The fact the development he
made last season I think was crazy considering it was
his fifth season, he had just signed a three year,
like thirty six million dollars deal. Never really thought he'd
amount to much more. And again, the development he showed
in his game with just his again his point guard skills,
his ability to finish her on the basket, just the craftiness,
a lot of stuff that he's developed just kind of
over the last year. What he showed was really impressive
and very surprising to me. So even if he never
gets any better, still a great player on a great
contract for now. Of course, he's gonna be a free
agent in a couple of years now, which is can
bring a whole new set of problems because he's gonna
want big money. We'll see how that goes. But I think,
I mean, Kobe will be one of the reasons to
watch the team this year. I think he's just a
fun player to watch, especially when he gets going. So
I expect an another good season on him again. Do
I question if he's going to take another step? Yes,
but if is it a problem? No, I mean he's
still good again, good player value contract. If he doesn't
get any better, he's still really good.
Speaker 1: Another player who I thought was really good last year.
In a personal favorite of mine, iow to Sumu. I've
always loved the defense. I thought they were like the
basic offensive stuff was good, but I had questions about him,
like mainly as a scorer. And it seems when Kobe
White was dealing with that shoulder injury, they started using
Iyow in like kind of different ways and they were
forcing him to do different stuff, and I kind of
liked it, Like when you were looking at his decisions
out of the pick and roller just as a score,
How do you feel about sort of him long term
or like, what does the next area of development need
to look like for him to become maybe a mainstay
on this team or someone who's even better than he
was last season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So as an Illinois guy love Io. I have
an Iopowls jersey. I of an Io Illinois jersey, so
like I'm a big IO guy. But two years ago
when they signed or was it two offseasons ago when
they gave him that contract, I was like, hmmm, I
think it was three years twenty one million. But he
was not good going into that contract. Year he was
the first couple of years he really really solid. I
can't even remember what year he is and at this
point in his career, but started his career was really promising.
Speaker 1: He was in the second round, right, so I think
he created me after two so I think.
Speaker 2: That sounds right. The year four, yeah, so like his
rookie year was like a really nice surprise. And then
year two, like just as that year went on, it
was not good. And I feel like by the end
of that second season he was almost unplayable, which was
very disappointing, and they gave him this three year like
why did they give him three guaranteed years? Like blah
blah blah. And then he came out he was much
better last year. He shot much better, just showed a
lot more offensive juice. Again, do I think he's got
that much more left developed positive on the left. I
don't know I would he was a little on the
older side coming out of Illinois. Uh so, he's a
little on the older side. Now again, development's not always linear,
so like, could he take it, take his game into
the level. He's a hard worker. Uh So, I don't
want to say absolutely not. Again, do I think he's
like much more than like a really good bench player
who can spots start, Like absolutely can throw him as
a starter and he's capable for you. Probably not, but
again seven million dollars contract. And if you're a really
good bench player and you can you can defend, you
could hit a three pointer, you could run a little
point guard. That's great. So yeah, I like him. It
was really nice to see him bounce back. He provide
a lot of great moments. He has some games, so
I mean, he just totally goes off, like I feel
like that he like for someone who I like, don't
consider like the best shooter, Like he has these I
feel like these random games. He just goes like nine
to ten and he does it like every like every
couple of weeks. He just has one of those games
where he cannot miss. Uh A fan favorite from Chicago
and went to University of Illinois, so what I love him.
It will be just going to see where he fits
into this rotation now with Giddy here, with Zach back,
with baby Alonzo back. But yeah, so like it will
be an interesting situation for him, especially I mean with
that contract, Like I don't know if they'll ever look
to move him or if they want to keep him around.
Like as I on that deal, like I said, there
should be teams interested in him. You could probably get
something pretty good. I'm not saying go out to trade
him right now, don't necessarily want to, and no rush
to trade a really solid young player like that. But
we'll see, like what kind of opportunities he gets to
the season with some of these other guys on the roster.
Speaker 1: You yeah, you kind of touched on this a little
bit already, but throwing it into like the Kobe White
arena as well, is there a chance just because of
how short the deals are for de Souonmu and then
Kobe White and then you're gonna have to reconcile with oh,
we have to pay the little bit, specifically White, a
boatload more money in two years after maybe paying Josh
Giddy a boatload of money the year before. Is there
a chance like again to soon? I think would just
be available if the right off wars there. But yeah,
theres that we hear some like Kobe White buzz this season,
given the direction in which the Bulls are headed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, something we have talked about, like, oh, like we
should you like like right now, should they like take
off ors for Kobe White? Like? I think it's I
don't think they're not going to trade Kobe White this obviously.
I feel like the fan base would actually revolt if
they traded Kobe just after.
Speaker 1: Especially after what they priority in the Caruso trade. It's like, well,
might we're probably just better off not trading Kobe we exactly?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't think they have any
interest in trading Kobe for like a bowload of draft picks.
But I think that would probably be what you're looking
to do if you're kind of just starting over. Is
getting like I like, I don't even like I We've
talked about this on our podcasting. I don't even know
like what a good Kobe trade would look like. At
this point, he's making twelve million. I would need a
bunch of draft picks two were two or three first, Like,
I don't I don't know if anyone's paying that, but
like for a good young player who made the leak
that he did last year, it would need to be
a lot, and I just doubt that. Again, it's not
gonna happen this off season. But this Yeah, so like
this season, like if he does like stagnate, maybe like
if the seasons just like going really badly because he
the question is he's great, I'm the great deal now,
but if he gets a contract, that's what similar maybe
not quite like he's not. I don't think he's I
don't know if he'll ever be like to what Zach's
level is. But uh, with the cap going up, like
his next contract, what is it gonna I mean, is
he gonna make thirty million a year? Is he gonna
make forty million a year? Is it worth paying Kobe
that when I don't know how this team is gonna
look in the next couple of years. I don't know.
Obviously they have time to make these decisions. So yeah,
it's tough, like it'd be really it'd be a tough
pall to swallow, like take this much time with Kobe
and then he has this big season and then he
just train and right away. But again, their problem here
with this last iteration of the team was waiting too
long to make moves, So like you don't want to
wait too long where okay, like now Kobe is kind
of what he is, and then you give him this
massive contract and then it turns into like a bad deal,
and like if your team still isn't any good, obviously,
ideally it'd be great to pay Kobe and then the
team is good and then he's just a really good
player on a good Bulls team. But is that going
to happen with what they have right now and kind
of where things are going, I don't know, Like maybe
maybe they'll get lucky and they'll get look in the
draft and they get the Cooper flag or something and
everything turns around really quickly and they resigned Kobe and
everything's really fun and great in the next couple of years.
But it is something that should absolutely consider. Everything should
be on the table with where this roster is, Like
nobody should be untouchable, Like that's let's be serious here,
Like with where they've been the last couple of years,
everything should be they should be open to anything, but
I'd be pretty surprised if Kobe's traded at anytime in
the next season two years. But with that short contract, again,
you have to think about it.
Speaker 1: They drafted Madus Buzzellis. Do you have any early impressions
of won his game? But two of what type of
role he could have for a Bulls team that might
be rebuilding but might also not.
Speaker 2: I mean summer league Matas showed a ton of fun
shit and just thought he tries to dunk everything, which
is awesome and it's really.
Speaker 1: You know who I compared him to before he came
into the league. When we were doing this exercise on
this podcast, do tell me, I said that I think
he has the potential to be a better shooting version
of Pascal Siakam. That's what I see. I know the
jumper percentages aren't there right now.
Speaker 2: They're not when I watch him, and.
Speaker 1: The Cadence said when he which he plays, and like,
I still see it. So I actually liked that pick.
I feel like we've shit on the Bulls this entire podcast.
I really did like the Buzzellis pick.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, considering most people thought he was going
top five, top six, I think a lot of people
thought he was gonna go to the Pistons that I
think that was five, and they took Ron Holland instead,
and then he just kind of kept falling and falling.
And he is a Chicago area guy. He was at
Hinsdale Central I think for like a year or two
before he moved, and he's Lithuanian. Just like just kind
of show this so kind of it was a perfect
perfect fit there for the Bulls to take, an easy
pick to make. But all jokes aside, like, yeah, I
love how he just likes to dunk everything. Love how
he shit talks like. He just real cocky attitude. And
obviously you can say, oh like if you're too cocky,
like you could get put in your place and you
get humbled a bit. But the bulls need I feel
like it just some swag and just some attitude like
that a dog he's got that seems like he's got
that dog in him. He likes to dunk on. Everybody
loves the trash shuck. The jumper is gonna be I
think a big The big swing with him as a
guy is whatever, six whatever. He's six nine, six ten
and he loves dunk he's got a decent handle with
that size. But if he can, if he can get
the jumper down the start. If you look back at
the summer league shooting percentages very bad. It was like
the thirties.
Speaker 1: The stats weren't pretty high.
Speaker 2: No, the three that for the Ignite stats were good.
And I know the Ignite stats, I think you might
want to take with some grain of salt there, but
some league stats were also. The percentages were not good.
He put up a lot of numbers. Again, he had
a ton of dunks, but the shooting is gonna is
gonna be a big question mark if that shooting comes around.
Given just like his skill set at that size, his aggressiveness,
and if you tighten the handle up a little bit,
I think he could be really really good. He does
not not the best passer either, it seems like so
like the thing like, I guess I can kind of
see that the jumper is a bit if he uh
but I mean he loves driving. We know he's got
the spin move very aggressive.
Speaker 1: And he went on, yeah, he's.
Speaker 2: Gotten a bit better there. So like it's an interesting comment.
I feel like if people a Carolinko, some people have
talked about too, Like obviously Carolinka is great legends, not
not defensively, I don't like. He made some nice defensive
plays in summer League, a lot of blocks, getting his
hands on the ball. I don't know if he can
do that, but it was pretty I mean, just pretty
aggressive player. He's obviously got to put on some weight too,
he's so dang skinny. But I mean if he does
get stronger and and with that aggressiveness, that should really
help him on both ends of the court. So I
like what I saw again, you gotta we'll have to
see the jumper come around, because I mean, ultimately he
the the whatever, like the bad I want to say
bad version of him, but like the lower end is
like he can do all this and he's aggressive and
all that, but if he still can't shoot and he's
like putting up junk shots and his efficiencies crap, then
he's not gonna be that good. So hopefully that'll come around.
He's obviously very very young, plenty of time and not
as team that is that they are rebuilding, even though
they don't want to necessarily say it, they are like,
you should have time, and in terms of his role
of this season, like I would love to see him
get twenty minutes a game. I don't know if Billy
Donovan is gonna play him that not much. We'll see
how long Billy dimonds. I'm not a surprise Billy Donovan
still work every day. Yeah, Like I know, like whatever
I think his son was like made. I think that
the G league coach or he got some promotion. I
think it was a summer league coach too. This year,
the Bulls probably don't want to fire him and pay
him and then pay somebody else. But I'm honestly, I'm
kind of surprised that he kind of wants to stick
around for a rebuild maybe clear yeah exactly so that
there was there the rumors about oh, is he gonna
go back to Kentucky and all that, and I was like, sure,
go ahead, Billy, like we'll bring it. They could bring it, honestly,
Like with the rebuilding, they could bring in like a
young up and cover and he'd be and he'd be
a cheap option, like it'd be perfect for Jerry. But
he's still here. We'll see how long Billy's still here.
So with that, like, I am curious if he's going
to make modest a big part of the rotation to
start the year. I would guess maybe not, because they
still do have some other young guys and I've even
mentioned like Daleen Terry and Julian Phillips yet as young
players like on the wing who might get some minutes
this season.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't need to know what they see in Julian
Phillips that they decided to give up two first round
picks last year to get him.
Speaker 2: Two seconds they give first that's what they gave him
for and that you see all that that one for him.
But I mean Julian Phillips can really jump and he
can play defense, but that offense is not pretty. The jumper,
it's looked a little better. But like in Summer League
when he when I saw him trouble the ball and
was not pretty much I mean him, I mean, the
Bulls love there. There's lanky, rangey, athletic wings who just
cannot shoot the ball at whatever. Daleen and Julian Phillips,
I mean, Iowa was kind of like that. Again, he's
gotten a lot better than the shooter. Patrick Williams was
kind of like that. They just like love these like
raw project wings and hope that they can develop them
and hasn't really worked out for the most part with
some of these guys, so like Dale and Terror, Like,
how much is he gonna play this year? I don't know,
Julian Phillips, how much is he gonna play? Modest? How
much is he gonna play? Like I would? I mean,
I'll play all these guys. I'd rather play those guys
than play like Tory Craig and Javon Carter At this point,
I don't care about those guys. Those are veterans that
they can be like vets on the team and park
their ass on the bench in that play. I want
to see the young guys play. Does that mean a
lot of a lot of losses? Probably, Yes, That's totally fine.
I'm good with it. I want to see these young
guys play and get some development developmental minutes.
Speaker 1: You mentioned before, because we asked this question every year,
but I feel like it needs to be reframed reach
before that Kobe White just might be as good as
Kobe White is ever gonna get. Are we at that
point with Patrick Williams or is there? And look, it
comes down to just like will he broaden his offensive horizons?
And it's just you You still see flashes of it
when he's comfortable getting too the mid range. You mentioned
that three point percentages, are they whatever gonna expand his usage?
And too is even capable of doing it? Like if
we're headed into year five to ask the question.
Speaker 2: Right, we've been waiting. We've been waiting for it, and
I mean we just saw it happen with Kobe White
year five, he took a huge jump. Maybe we'll get
that jump out of Patrick Williams. I don't know if
he has that dog in him like Kobe and like
Modest seems to have. And I don't know if the
handle's gonna be good enough. But again, I mean we
I did not think Kobe was gonna be this good,
So I'm I don't want to rule it out. I mean,
even going back to lowry market and like the jump
that he took in basically year six, year seven and
to become an all star level player, like sometimes it happens,
so like I think there it could happen for Patrick Williams.
I know a lot of people Bulls fans have been like, oh,
like Tomor's gone, that's what they needed, so that Patrick
Williams will get the opportunities but of course now Josh
Giddy's there and they have exactly been back, so we'll
see if Pat ever gets those opportunities. I am skeptical.
I think it's very fair to be skeptical that Pat's
gonna be ever more than I mean, he's had four
scens now and like his his averages have been almost
like the same every year. It's basically ten and four,
ten and five, and that's it. Like, so like, if
that that's what he is, it's totally fine. The contract
he got is fine. You can probably argue was that
last year was a player option? Like that, Hey, maybe
shouldn't have gotten that.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I need to understand that because Tyres Maxi
and the Edwards Tyre's Helbert no player options, but Patrick
Wiams gets a player option.
Speaker 2: I don't know the bolls love just like giving this
losing contract negotiations. Like the average annual value on I
think Pat Steel is totally fair. He's still an effective player. Again,
he's three and D guy. He's gotten better defensively. He's
a good three point shooter, a little unwilling sometimes, but
still pretty good. So like, average annual value totally fine,
especially with the cap going up. Yeah, the player option
thing because then like if he does develop, then he
can opt out early and then obviously he'll get a
big contract way down the road. Whatever, do I ever
think like Pat's gonna turn into a guy where he's
gonna need a max contract down the road? Probably not.
I just gotta there's We've seen him for four years
on there's just been like no real hints or steps
forward of like at least stats West again. He has
got better, like with some of the subtle stuff defensively
and all that kind of things. But it's like, is
there a room for Patrick Owiams get better? Yes, well
I think he should get some more opportunities this year.
Is it actually going to happen? I mean, my god,
just give me fifteen points a game, my man, Like
I feel like me and Ricky have said this on
cash considerations several years in a round. Now, like Pat,
just give us twelve to fifteen points a game. Just
get us there. And at the end of the year
it comes down and others. Patrick Williams at like ten
or eleven points a game, so hopefully he can raise
that a few points again if he turns into a
guy who can average fifteen to five and like a
couple stocks a game. Great, you'll be worth that contract,
totally fine. Whatever. If you have to trade him down
the line, that's all good. But I think it will
have a nice long career. Is it gonna be the
one people were hoping for as the number four pick?
And with like the tools. I mean, he looks like
a guy who should be like who could have star
potentially a six seven, six ' eight. He's got his
three trunk thighs and like he's when he does like
go hard he can. He has sick dunks sometimes like
st'll have the occasional put back or like drive the
baskets like buddy, where's this been on my life? And
then like and then the rest of the game he'll
take like one shot and totally disappear. So it's been
a it's been a frustrating up and down experience with them. Hope.
I would love to see him break out again. Do
I think it's gonna happen. Maybe a little bit, but
I'd be surprised it's like full blown like Kobe breakout.
But again, don't want to say one hundred percent will
not happen.
Speaker 1: My uh hot I don't know if it's the hot take,
but I think by the end of next season, Patrick
Williams is going to be on the Indiana Pacers. That
is my that's my spicy take. Not not necessarily this
coming season, but by the end of twenty five twenty six.
I'll throw that out there, all right, we can revisit it.
You sound skeptical that Lonzo Ball will play, even though
he says he will play, even though we know he's
back to not just five on five but five on
five with contact, which is like an important distinction. Let's
just say he can, like, well, the team give him
a chance to play, or they terrified of what might
happen to his knees, or you just inherently the fall
things he's not playing. I'll believe it when I see it.
Speaker 2: So I think he'll get on the court this year.
That does not mean he can actually like play effective
NBA minutes and in a team on a season again
rebuilding season. I don't really caro wins and losses. I
would guess Lonzo all theas gets a chance here and there,
but again, like he comes back, like there's the expectations
should be so low. He hasn't played in two and
a half seasons. The surgery he had is like some
funky like it.
Speaker 1: Never happened to an NBA, like the Cartlage replacement, whatever
it was.
Speaker 2: It is super rare, Like I don't know if it's
like the first time, but it's very something, very very rare.
At the very least, there's just no reason to expect
him to be able to play extended minutes too. I
mean certainly like not back to backs. So just like
he there's no way he can play that much to
like really make an impact. Again, do I think he'll
get at least, like, will he's step on a court
in a regular season game this year? I think that
will happen. I have no expectations. But besides that of
him like actually being effective that I'll have to believe
it when I see it. But honestly, stepping on the
court once, I think it's a win, just given what
he's gone through two and a half seasons. They didn't
know what the hell was going on for a year
or two basically, like there were reports about how he
was like having pain walking up the stairs. Still like
you had no idea what was going on? You had
do this really rare surgery. So I think even just
getting back on the court at all, whether it's with
the Bulls, whether it's this year, whether it's down the
line sometime, I think that's a win of itself. And
it seems like the fact that he's able to do
these scrimmages too, like without pain, that's good for just
like on a personal level, for him, he was such
a fun player to watch. Uh, he was not the
best point guard in the league before Covid, like he
liked to claim that. He claimed that he did on
his podcast the other day. But he was awesome and
like he was such a key part of the Bulls
being fun for four or five months, uh, in the
middle of seven years of gone garbage. But so yeah,
just like on a personal level, it'd be awesome to
see Lon so just even against up on the court,
get a huge ovation. It'd be fun to be great,
be a really nice moment. I will believe it when
I see it, if he can be a good NBA
player again, because there's just like no precedent for this,
like at all. So like it's hard to say, like, oh, yeah,
he's gonna come back and be great again. There's no
reason to expect that, but it'd be awesome if that
was the case.
Speaker 1: While they still have some solid individual defenders on this team,
what is the pathway to the Bulls actually being good
on defense? Like I think they've lost now with Caruso gone,
Like you've lost a cue like you have Ioh, Tory
Craig is fine, you have Patrick Williams of course, but
like it feels like they've lost like even that super
aggressive flip switch elements. Like they had some core line
I'll thling it this way. What were they twenty third
or twenty whatever it was in point slot per possession
last year? But they had some core lineups that were
pretty good defensively. I feel like those are gonna be
much tougher to find this year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Cruso is just such an important part
of all that. I mean, you look at all the
advanced numbers, Cruso is basically you can argue he's the
best being defender in the league. Obviously, Threw Holliday or Jones,
Marcus Smart, some of those other Derek White, some of
those other guys are right up there too, But Crusoe's
impact on their defense just so much crunch time too,
the Bulls are won the best crunch time teams in
the NBA last season, absolutely insane. They outplayed their like
actual talent level and in the clutch by so much,
and some of that was a lot of that was
because Cruso just blowing shit up defensively. They were also
pretty lucky if you look at some of their opponent
three point shooting in those crunch time situations. But I mean,
some of these games that they pulled out is because
like Crusoe would just mad Man all over the place,
like swapping him out for Josh Guiney and massive downgrade defensively, Like, yeah,
Io was pretty good. Patrick Williams is pretty good, but
he just I mean, maybe Dale and Terry will turn
into like Lot. He'll take Crusoe's spot and be a
lockdown defender. Of course he's not gonna be as good
as Alex Cruis, but it is hard to see how
they are really a good defensive team when you lost
your best defensive player and you didn't sound like you
really replaced him with with with anybody. I mean, Jalen's
the guys they brought him to SHEW. I mean, Modess
is not gonna be a good defensive player. Jalen Smith
is not is not that good of a defensive player.
You lost a ton of rebound against Boch is an
awful rim protector. There's I don't see anyway. They're a
defensive team that you're like you asked, like, what's the path?
I don't see it. I mean, and Zach's coming back,
and I mean, we know he's not gonna be that
good of a defender, especially if he's more kind of
just focusing on getting numbers, I guess, but maybe he'll
buy in and he'll we'll see like the Olympics, Zach Lylvine,
and he'll be a good defender. But even then, just
like they were a bad defensive team with Crusoe playing
so many minutes and like having a huge impact. You
look at some of the on off stuff and just
again the impact stats. So then like him not being
there and they didn't really replace him, Like I just
see other good defensive at all.
Speaker 1: Are you ready to enter the cookie cutter portion of
the podcast?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Does this team have any because it just feels like
this has been such a negative podcast. Does this team
have any hidden strengths or just something that could turn
into a strength that you think is flying under the
radar that we haven't talked about.
Speaker 2: I don't know if strengths right. I think they could
be kind of fun, like I said, fun bad a
team that I think with giddy. If they commit to
playing fast and they just are running up and down
the court. You play fast, Hopefully you shoot more threes,
Hopefully you get boots out of here because I don't
want to see them pounding it in the post him anymore.
And maybe they'll just play a bunch of high scoring games.
And if they lose a bunch of games like one
hundred and thirty to one hundred and twenty, maybe not
that high, but like great, sounds great. I'll have a
fun season where they probably showal to win thirty games.
But if they, like say, look good doing it and
they look kind of fun and we see the young
guys develop, I think that would be great. Again. I
don't know if that's necessarily strength, but I think I
would guess that they will want to play fast and
just fast breaks. Get giddy because you don't want Josh
Giddy running your offense in the half corps all the time.
But that's just not gonna go. Probably not gonna go
very well for you.
Speaker 1: So like, honestly, if he doesn't look for his own
shot more get all the way of the basket in transition,
you probably don't want him running your offense on the
break either. Some of his transition numbers are just ghastly.
Speaker 2: So well, that's I definitely didn't did not know of
that statistic. I just figure, you know what, if they
get him out run fast, they'll pass the guys will
be better at finishing and stuff like that. But I mean,
he definitely does need to finish better in general. So uh,
this is my hope. Again, maybe it's just totally wrong.
Speaker 1: And just like turning, I think bad as a really
like they have they still have a lot of interesting
players on this roster, like for either or worse or
worser than worse, Like they still have a lot of
interesting players. So I think fun bad is a like
I think you're setting the expectations like correctly, like that's
not lofty. And if they're not fun, then like do
you get to the coach like what is going what
is going on here? They do have the thing I
think to at least be bad fun if.
Speaker 2: They're just bad bad, and like Giddy is like not
any good. I mean, that's when you have to clean
house like AKA should not and their front office should
be I mean I would have fired their front office
already because of how long.
Speaker 1: Unconvinced they're not trying to get fired, just looking at
what happened with the asset, I guess.
Speaker 2: Said I as you mentioned, like, we've been very negative
and it's like, I mean, I don't think they're gonna
be in AO good this year. They do have some
interesting players and some interesting young players who I think
can get better. Still, I think they'll be worth watching,
So I don't think they're a team that's just gonna
be like totally miserable to watch, at least again, that
is my hope. Maybe that's just gonna be totally wrong,
but I think they have enough interesting young guys it'll
be at least worth watching them, and I think they'll
have their moments again. Giddy will probably put up stats.
Kobe's gonna have some fun games IO hopefully we see
Pat take some type of leap, and maybe zachly Bean will.
I mean, they'll have some big games here, and then
Zach is still fun to watch when he's got to
go and so there are always enough reasons to watch for.
I think it's gonna be at least semi fun.
Speaker 1: So at full strength, I have their starting lineup as Giddy,
Kobe White, Zach Lavine, Patrick Williams, and Vouch. Do you
want to agree with that? And then too, like, how
do you flesh out We'll call it the final five
spots of the top ten rotation again when everybody's available.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that starting lineup sounds about right. I
mean you, I mean maybe they would think about moving
Kobe to the bench again, but I mean that they
feel like he would he earned a starting spot. They
clearly are giving Giddy the starting point guard spot. Zach,
you wanted to rebuild that value, He'll be there, Patrick Williams,
Sure he'll. I mean he started for the most part
in his career. And then yeah, Booch will they're not
gonna bring off the bench for Jalen Smith. So like,
that starting lineup makes sense, and then you look past that.
This is where I am very curious to see how
Billy fills out their nation. Does he play the veterans,
does he go with Shavon Carter and Tory Craig, or
does he play Dale and Terry, Julian Phillips, Madus Bizellis,
Jalen Smith as like their main signing is going to
be a backup five. I mentioned I mentioned Io yet
I mean I Io is gonna probably be their sixth man.
So then once you get past ioh uh. And again
there's Lonzo there too. Uh, we'll see about that, but
I don't think Lonzo really can be penciled in for
a rotation spot at the very least, So Io definitely,
Jalen Smith definitely, yeah, And then it's the question mark
is it? And then I think I would love to
see modest play. But then is it Tory Craig and
Jovon Carter or is it Dale and Terry or Julian Phillips.
Maybe Billy chooses one of Dale and Terry and Julian Phillips,
like in training camp, if one of those guys stands
out over the other, they get the rotation spot, and
then maybe you just play. Tory Craig is like the
other wings they like don't really don't have that many
like bigger wings. Javon Carter really shouldn't probably shouldn't play
at all. Like if you have I as your backup
point guard. You have enough guys who can handle the ball,
or I mean, Javon Carter was so such a disappointment
last year. He was so bad. He was probably a
Giannis merchant a couple of years ago where he had
the big season where he shot really from three. Last
year he did not shoot well. He didn't do anything well.
He was brutal, and they gave him that three year contract.
I was a fan of that signing. I mean that
was and he was not good. So like, I don't
think he should be in the rotation again, I wouldn't
really play Tory Craig either. I would rather play the
young guys. But it would not surprise me if Craig
is part of the rotation at least start the year.
Speaker 1: You can you can go about that's wherever you want.
But it's crunch time now. If you want to build
a lineup, that is a sure fireway to lose.
Speaker 2: But like, if they're trying to.
Speaker 1: Win the game, Like, what do you think ends up
being their their most used crunch time cup? Is it
just the starting five?
Speaker 2: Honestly, it probably is with maybe you work Io in
there instead of I mean, Billy loves playing like a
bunch of small lineups with a lot of guards, Like
maybe sometimes you pull Patrick Williams for Io, or I
mean pull Giddy like in crunch time when the game
is slowing down, like I don't necessarily Josh Giddy out there,
so like I'd probably rather play Io, Kobe, Zach Williams
and Booch or like I've always want, like I guess
we could. I know we're like talking about the funky
lineups too, Like I don't need to do chat there,
Like if you want to go and maybe play Pat
and like four guards in some matchups, like maybe you
do that, but it wouldn't surprise me if their crunch
time lineup is just the starting five. But again it's
like Giddy's like playing like shit, like teams aren't gonna
like respect him as a as a shooter or like
even like in crunch time the game slowing down in
a half court situation, like if you're just sagging off
Giddy and like that's hurting the rest of the guys.
And like it's like here, Josh Giddy shoot like threes
in crunch time, like like maybe you have to do
you maybe have to pull them and iow is more
of a threat. We'll see, so I again, coming back
to it, probably the starting lineup with maybe Io mixed
in there somewhere, still a situation where, like I know,
like last year, they definitely had a bit more few
more options. I feel like when they had the Cruso
around we had tomorrow of course was those those two
guys drove their crunch time success and you had some
other players you can include too, But that will be
interesting to see. I am very curious because like the
other guys, I just like, I mean off the bench,
like Dale and Terry Note and Jalen Smith. Probably not.
I mean maybe some sometimes Jalen's gonna be out there
over Booch, but I doubt it. Craig Carter modis probably not.
So we'll see.
Speaker 1: Is there a funky lineup you would like to see
them try this year?
Speaker 2: I feel like I've mentioned I think I've said this
last couple of years, like going with like Patrick Williams
at the five playing super small, Like if you're gonna play,
if they want to play fast, play fast and small.
Maybe you go with the all win like all rangy
wing lineup that can't shoot. Get Dalen Julian Patrick Williams
Giddy and someone else out there. I don't know, Like
it's just it's just like a weird mix of players
that I think, like a lot of lineups that are
gonna throw out there will probably be super weird anyway.
Like so like I don't even know, like I don't
have one them, like really like I always I think
I always DeVault the pad at the five and just
going like super small because they have so many just
like smaller players just go like all guard slash wing
and see how that goes. So I know it's not
that's not that exciting, but I think they could throw
out a lot of this kind of really weird goofy
like or Madus at the five, like.
Speaker 1: That was mine, what was kind of mine? I want
to see Modus with Patrick Williams. Give me Kobe White
into Summu and I'm just trying to manifest that he's
going to be healthy, Like let's throw a Lonzo in there.
I don't know what. I don't know what that lineup
is good at, but like I feel like it would
be fun as hell. So I got the lineup. I
just want to see and if they're serious about being
a tank commander, they need to throw it out there
and say, honestly, it might be too good. They might
not be able to play it because they find out
that that they're winning those minutes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, give me the modus the five. I can't believe
it took me that long to get there. Absolutely, let
me see it. Why not the Lonzo inclusion? I love it.
Just this, this is the This should be a year
for experimentation. Let's get funky with it. We'll see how
these guys can handle these different lineups and rotations and
situations and see where it goes. And if they if
they suck, give me the pick, get me Cooper flag,
or give me one of those other studs. And if
there's somehow, if somehow, it becomes fun and good. I
can live with that too.
Speaker 1: Okay, as we record this, and we're recording this on
August the twenty third, they're over under a set at
twenty seven and a half. So my two questions to that,
are you smashing the over the under? And how many
teams are you confident that they'll be better than in
the Eastern Conference this year?
Speaker 2: Oh? God, So me and Ricky just did with the
schedule being released last week, we did our annual annual
go through the UH schedule and pick wins. Obviously it's
eighty games only because of the two whatever NBA Cup
games that are not scheduled. I got to twenty five
wins out of eighty. Ricky get nineteen out of eighty.
So like, if they're twenty five out of eighty, you
give them two more, maybe they win one or two.
Like that's twenty six twenty seven, So that's like right
at twenty seven and a half. I don't know if
I could smash either one of them here twenty seven.
I do think they're gonna end up in like high twenties. Okay,
So like I could see a pathway to get to
like thirty wins, but like again I always go back
to last year. They won thirty nine games while being
the best or maybe second best clutch team in the league.
They won twenty seven clutch games last year, and now
like their two best clutch players, Damar and Caruso's.
Speaker 1: Gonna be haved like that.
Speaker 2: So that I would assume that clutch record, I know,
because I know that's kind of funky. Year over year.
You can't really rely on that kind of stuff. There's
a lot of small sample size and a lot of
funky stuff that happens. But I would assume they're gonna
be a bad clutch team. They're gonna be so much younger.
They have Josh Kady playing point guard. They don't have
Damar and Cruz, So like I would assume that clutch
record is gonna flip and be pretty bad, and they're
just not gonna be as good in general as Damor
was really really good. So like at least ten more
losses or ten fewer wins, however you want to put it,
So like that's get that goes down to twenty nine.
It's like I do think that's where they gonna end up,
Like right that twenty seven half number is perfect because
like twenty seven and fifty five like sounds like a
good number to me. Could I see them winning a
few more? Maybe? It's like I don't know, do not
know if I can bet like I usually do bet
the over runner, Like I bet the over last year
and they I think it was like thirty seven and
a half and they they barely eked it out there.
I was very worried about that coming down the stretch.
So I don't know if I can make the bet
that she like, I think they're gonna be right around it,
Like twenty seven and fifty five makes sense, Like that
would be just under if they went again ten more
or ten fewer wins, twenty nine and fifty three like
also would make some sense. Like I think they're gonna
be right in that range, right around that twenty seven
and a half.
Speaker 1: How many teams would you team?
Speaker 2: Right? Oh god, it's like, I mean the Pistons then,
like the Hornets and the Wizards. Like the Pistons theoretically
should be better. I mean, they signed Tobias Harris, like
they have all these interesting young players, but MANI Williams
became like the worst coach coach in the league last season. Like,
I don't know what they're actually doing. I know they
want to take a step forward, but like I would
guess the Bulls will still be better than them, and
then like the Wizards know and the Bulls will be
better than the Wizards. I feel very confident in that.
I'm sure the Wizards, I mean, they have a bunch
of really you raw young players, so Jordan Poole, I
would guess they trade Kyle Kuzma at some point, I
would get I would bet the Bulls are better than them,
and like the Hornets, like.
Speaker 1: I think they're gonna be a lot better than people expect.
Like I think, actually the only two teams I'm prepared
to say I'm guaranteed. I don't know what the Pistons
will look like under JB. Bickers staff. They have so
many young guys, But they.
Speaker 2: Say, I totally forgot that they fired Manchu Williams the
one season that they hired because last year Manti turned
into like the worst coach in the league, Like, what
the hell happened?
Speaker 1: From the well he didn't that whole thing was set up.
We grated it very highly on this podcast by saying, oh,
you gave up the money to get the guy you wanted,
but like you just kept throwing money at someone who
didn't want the job until they probably not the best decision.
But the Nets and Wizards for like the only two
I'd be prepared to guarantee with like one team from
the Hornets, Raptors or Pistons sort of group, Like, Okay,
they'll probably be better than one of those teams.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So like yeah, and that's yeah, good point in
the Nets trading. MIKEL Bridges of course, like Nets are
gonna be awful now they have incentive to be awful again,
so that's probably gonna be awful. And yeah, the Wizards,
I think the Nets, Yeah, those two are that's absolutely true.
The Pistons, I think they'll probably end up being bad
because they're the Pistons. Like even Kide is good, but
like I see that good ye I like? But again
like just the fit there, I don't know. They have
all these interesting young guys. I just like don't know
if it actually works. Maybe JB will and still an
actual culture there and they'll actually play to their talent
level a little better. Will it be enough to get
to like in the high twenties like where I think
the Bulls will be. I don't know. And again you
got Tobias veteran Tobias Harris. He'll come back and they'll
level the ship there as the veteran team. I don't know,
but Bulls being like eleventh or twelfth in the East
does sound right, right. I do think the Raptors should
be better. I think the Hawks should probably be better.
Uh just they still Trey young there obviously, and like
they still have some other decent players.
Speaker 1: They also have speaking of no reasons to tank their
next three picture right, So.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so like yeah, yeah, what is that eleventh twelfth
the Hornets? If LaMelo actually says healthy, which again you
cannot rely on he's heard every year, like they're probably
knocking on the door of playing, which is basically what
they were when Lameolo Momello was mostly healthy. They still
do have a Miles.
Speaker 1: Bridges, right, Brandon Miller was really good.
Speaker 2: Brandon Miller did good. Better sign on.
Speaker 1: The Cody Martin hill Mark Williams might be healthy this year.
They feel like they'll be in the thirties if they
stay relatively.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if Lamello plays most of the year, they should.
I could see them getting to the thirties, even if
it's not like high thirties. So yeah, that sounds eleventh
or twelveth sounds about right in the east. If if
the Bulls be brutal, like the Bulls got they won
like twenty seven, twenty eight games, but that was still
like somehow good enough to get ten and then they
like snuck into the well.
Speaker 1: When you look at the landscape of the ash really quickly,
someone's gonna make the play in by accident, right, because
there's not that many teams like the Pistons, the Wizards,
the Hornets, the Bulls, even the Raptors on top of
the Wizards. And then I think might have said that,
but like all those teams are playing the longer games,
like somebody's gonna end up being in the play in
that isn't necessarily invested.
Speaker 2: The worst case scenario is the Bulls are not good,
like and they win again like they win like high twenties,
but that somehow is enough to get the ten and
then they make it through the plan, they lose the pick, well,
they're still not any good and then they get smashed
in the first round and that would just be the
absolute worst.
Speaker 1: Well, so it took thirty six wins to get ten
last year. I don't see the Bulls getting thirty six.
Speaker 2: I do not, But we'll Seeah, we'll see how it
shakes out with some of these teams. It was there
were there were a lot of bad teams, like really
bad teams last year. I don't know if that's gonna
be the case akin this year, but I mean, you know,
and these are conference I feel like, you know, it's
some of these teams.
Speaker 1: Uh, this was great as always, but are there any
one or anything about this team. I didn't ask you
about that. You think we need to discuss I.
Speaker 2: Don't think so. I think we touched about just about
everything up and down the roshaw. So I was gonna
go look at the roster and see if I missed
any interesting players, and I don't think I did. We'll
see if do you very quickly?
Speaker 1: Do you think, cause you mentioned this before, that Billy
Donovan is less likely to finish the season in Chicago
than either Booch or Levine.
Speaker 2: U.
Speaker 1: I just don't know personally, I don't know what you
would gain by making that move in the middle of
the season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I could see him coaching out the year
and then just parting ways like mutually. I don't. I
think they have to be like going really bad and
like things are just looking really ugly. I think to
fire him, And I don't necessarily think that's gonna be
the case. So they're gonna lose a lot, I would
guess so, But like it's gonna be a case. Why're
like embarrassingly like Jim Boyling level bad, I would guess not. So, Yeah,
I don't really I don't really have anything else. I'm
I did mention his name once Christ, like is he
gonna is he gonna getting the rotation at all? Like
there's another guard for you, Like they got him in
the in this Demarch trade. I'm wondering if he's gonna
get any minutes. Probably not. He's not any good he
he what he came into the year as or into
the league as like a what twenty five year old
Brookie or something like that. So like he had like
one kind of okay season and he's just regressed.
Speaker 1: And I would guess yea if he couldn't get on
the floor with his buddy Domos last year and sap,
I don't see it happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so maybe maybe I haven't mentioned I don't I
forgot how to say his name. I don't rep the
team bit him. I always feel how to say his name.
Showed some interesting, kind of interesting things at the end
of last season. He's I think he's Turkish or something
like that, kind of uh can shoot condunk a bit.
Showed some interesting things. Maybe he'll get again. I will.
I'm totally fine if they Billy just plays a super
deep rotation, try out all these guys experiment. That's just
kind of what I want to see and lose enough
games to keep that pick and capture the flag. Baby,
that's the that is my my I'm trying to get.
Speaker 1: Into Cooper for Cooper going, and no one likes it,
I'm gonna push it.
Speaker 2: I like that too. Uh, capture the flag, there's I
think there's a good names.
Speaker 1: I mean, capture the flags is objectively more clever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it makes perfect sense. So we'll see, and
there will be plenty of teams going. There probably will
be a lot of tanking teams the second half the
year to get Cooper. But there's I mean, there's other
good players in this draft too. So again, if the
Bulls are bad but are fun and they show some
development and they keep that pick and they get a
high draftick to add to this core, they'll make things
so much more interesting moving forward. Uh where they go
from there, who the hell knows, Like if they want
to be good again anytime soon, but it'll be an
interesting season, honest again, Like, even if they're not good,
that's just if they would have run it back again
like I was. Some people were worried that they were
gonna run it back one more time, they were gonna
re sign tomorrow, and like it was just all, well,
trade Zach labein, well, but we're gonna bring Tamar back,
and we're we'll bring Cruisie back, and we're just gonna run
this thing back again. It would just been like, I
can't watch this again. So at least it's somewhat fresh.
Is it gonna be good at anytime soon in the
next few years? I have no idea, But I mean
I've been used to a lot of bad basketball and
I know for a long time now, so what's a
little more. At least it's something new.
Speaker 1: Bill, you heard it here first that we're on owner
op but team Watch, that's the mill we'll be looking for.
Speaker 2: Jay.
Speaker 1: This was great as usual. You're just able to tell
our listeners and watchers where they can find you and
all the great content that you put.
Speaker 2: Out of course cash considerations. As I mentioned podcast, my
guy Rookie O'Donnell uh basically do a pod every week.
I know, like now are the dog days of summer.
It's always tough to come up with stuff to talk about.
It was very glad that I was coming on your
podcast today. Was basically took taking the place of me
and Rookie having to come up with some bulleshit to
talk about. We might just turn into a Bears pod
for the next like month or a couple of months,
because the Bears seem kind of interesting. They're on hard knocks,
let's talk about them. But Cash Considerations Day, Schaiboles podcast, that, that,
and then clutch Points dot Com. I work out. I
don't really do much content there myself anymore in part
of more of the administration, but go read clutch Points
dot Com too. We cover the league and again obviously
with the NBA. Uh, it's all it's like silly season
now with just dumb viral stuff.
Speaker 1: But what is player X saying on player wise podcast?
Speaker 2: Exactly right? God, there's so many I mean, as someone
who has as you have a podcast, I have a podcast,
there are way too many damn podcasts, and all these
X players saying just the most asinine things on these
pod It's like you always kind of the Gilbert Reenas
pod to have something stupid to say with him, Rashard
and mccantz always gonna give you something stupid. Uh. Rashid
Wallace is saying something goofy like recently to like all
these guys just and their takes. It's crazy, but long
way of saying, go to clutch points dot com and
follow the clutch points dot com as well. So yeah,
that's basically about it.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, Jason, and I'm sure you
know right now I will be pestering you again down
my line, so I'll speak of you soon
Speaker 2: Mhm