1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to an emergency emergency episode of the 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:11,519 Crime Pace of Botany Doesn't Permaculture Podcast. Today we're talking 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:16,239 about like permaculture and like like food for us and stuff. 4 00:00:16,359 --> 00:00:20,199 And I have my friend Lily is here too. We're 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,000 going to talk about part Neither one of us is 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,480 an expert on permaculture. I just I don't need to 7 00:00:24,519 --> 00:00:26,280 fucking talk. I don't know why I talk like that. 8 00:00:26,359 --> 00:00:30,000 I think I just I've been traumatized, but I uh, 9 00:00:30,519 --> 00:00:32,880 I anyway, this is a this is an emergency episode. 10 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,079 It'll be a short one, but I'm just curious. I 11 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:41,280 keep encountering and encountering invasion biology deniers in the field 12 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,280 of permaculture, and it is a it's a trend as 13 00:00:45,079 --> 00:00:48,560 as ready as like you know, no one like somebody's racist, 14 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,560 the Caucasian uncle is going to be a climate denier. 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,600 It's like the same thing which which we don't need 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:55,280 to get into it. You can agree to disagree, but 17 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,600 you know, it's just a trade. It's just a commonality 18 00:00:57,679 --> 00:01:01,960 that you keep keep encountering. It's it's a very predictable stereotype. 19 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,400 So I and maybe you, Lily, maybe this is just me, 20 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,159 But I've been. I've been just so desperate to understand 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:15,000 where this comes from and understand what permaculture is. And 22 00:01:15,079 --> 00:01:17,799 so I looked into it a little bit. And neither 23 00:01:17,799 --> 00:01:19,439 one of us is an expert in this at all. 24 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:21,480 I should mention this is just a conversation to get 25 00:01:21,519 --> 00:01:22,319 you think and so you. 26 00:01:22,519 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 2: But I do have I have a lot of knowledge 27 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,079 in growing food and farming, and I mean that was 28 00:01:29,159 --> 00:01:32,640 one of my core interests before I got into data plants. 29 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 3: So I have a lot of. 30 00:01:34,359 --> 00:01:38,519 Speaker 1: A lot of But now but now you like, you're 31 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,640 like working against the food forest and you work for Monsanto? 32 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,560 Is that? What is that? What's going on? Are you 33 00:01:46,599 --> 00:01:47,239 working for me? 34 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 2: The thing is that it doesn't have to be for 35 00:01:50,599 --> 00:01:54,079 or against. It's just the way that permaculture is being 36 00:01:54,359 --> 00:01:59,280 enacted currently. The trends in permaculture are not sustainable. 37 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:02,879 Speaker 1: That's okay, hold on, hold on, hold on, But okay, 38 00:02:02,959 --> 00:02:05,760 I'm not for against it. I just am noticing a 39 00:02:05,799 --> 00:02:11,680 correlation between yes, you know, uh, mostly dudes. It's mostly 40 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,319 men that pop up in a comments section talking shit. 41 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,439 When I mentioned invasion biology and then I had one, Yeah, 42 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,639 mostly Anglo man, mostly Caucasian. Mostly they're kind of pink. 43 00:02:23,199 --> 00:02:25,840 They're kind of pink. But but I but they I 44 00:02:25,879 --> 00:02:27,840 don't know why they get so salty about this though, 45 00:02:27,879 --> 00:02:29,800 And that's what And then today tell me I'm working 46 00:02:29,879 --> 00:02:31,719 I had someone tell me I was working for Bear, 47 00:02:31,759 --> 00:02:35,000 and I had someone else tell me that I'm just indoctrinated, 48 00:02:35,039 --> 00:02:39,520 like they think like native plant ecology and and understanding 49 00:02:39,599 --> 00:02:45,520 native plant functionality is just some like puritanical, like elitist, 50 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,599 you know, occult, which I guess I kind of did. 51 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,840 I thought that two fifteen years ago. I mean, in 52 00:02:52,879 --> 00:02:55,280 some cases, yeah, there's I mean there's a lot of 53 00:02:55,319 --> 00:02:58,240 like pasty vanilla fucking you know. A lot of them 54 00:02:58,319 --> 00:03:00,759 also hate this podcast, which I'm proud of. But there's 55 00:03:00,759 --> 00:03:02,560 a lot of people on that side who are you know, 56 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,120 who who do is? Who are always talking about well, 57 00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:07,439 it's got to be native you know, I get where 58 00:03:07,439 --> 00:03:09,960 it comes from. But but they're not looking at the 59 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,240 meat of the issue that I think they just kind 60 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,199 of get triggered by. And then there's all you really 61 00:03:15,199 --> 00:03:19,080 get stupid when you start comparing you know, xenophobia and 62 00:03:19,159 --> 00:03:21,639 all this other shit to it. But I'm just trying 63 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,599 to understand where this comes from. So so what you know, 64 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,639 when I looking into permaculture, what I could understand is 65 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,759 that first off, it's always like the same I hate 66 00:03:30,759 --> 00:03:32,960 to say, but the same like cliche of person. It's 67 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,000 like some kind of you know, some dudes you might 68 00:03:36,039 --> 00:03:38,400 see in like a crystal shop in Mount Shasta or 69 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,080 something explaining you know, like whole integrative system. Like they're 70 00:03:43,159 --> 00:03:46,680 using all the same words like holistic, integrative. Basically, what 71 00:03:46,719 --> 00:03:48,240 they're doing, what they seem to be doing, is like 72 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,360 describing how on ecosystem functions. 73 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,719 Speaker 2: Like they yes, they're trying to recreate ecosystems essentially. 74 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,599 Speaker 1: And which which seems like a cool idea if you're 75 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,879 gonna grow food, it's much better than a monoculture, sure, right. 76 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,159 Speaker 2: But their ecosystems functioning all around them, which they're ignoring, 77 00:04:05,759 --> 00:04:06,479 is a big issue. 78 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,759 Speaker 1: Well that's the thing is they function on they they 79 00:04:09,919 --> 00:04:16,040 they focus on functionality, uh, without really any clear understanding 80 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:18,439 of ecology. It's like it's like none of them ever 81 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,000 bothered the crack open a fucking Elder Leopold book, you know, 82 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,399 or or anything else. And and but. 83 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:31,319 Speaker 2: They also like there's a severe lack of ecological education 84 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,600 throughout the Western world, right right. 85 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and it's the symptom of I mean, the 86 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,000 anthropocentric society we live in, which is like the living 87 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,319 world's expendable. Just get it out of the way, you know, 88 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:44,959 you just got to clear it so you can put 89 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,800 some shit that really matters there, which is something that 90 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,680 that's you know, like a fucking big lots or a 91 00:04:51,399 --> 00:04:54,480 whether it's agriculture or whatever. It's just like, there's no purpose. 92 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,439 It's this beautiful living machine that took millions of years 93 00:04:57,439 --> 00:04:59,120 of co evolution. Let's just get rid of it so 94 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,639 we can put our own shit up. But an example 95 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,079 of like how the permaculturalists do this, from what I 96 00:05:04,079 --> 00:05:07,040 can understand, is like again, they just focus on function. 97 00:05:07,079 --> 00:05:11,160 They're like, well, acacia trees fixed nitrogen, So let's plant 98 00:05:11,199 --> 00:05:13,680 some acacias. It doesn't matter that they've you know, they're 99 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,519 all native and spent the last fifty million years evolving 100 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:21,360 on the Australian continent or thereabouts. Let's plant them in California. 101 00:05:21,439 --> 00:05:25,560 What could go wrong when, Yeah, the tragedy is that, well, 102 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,079 there's native California plants that also do that, and you 103 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:30,279 could just go and that. 104 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,439 Speaker 2: They could probably collect seed from for free rather than 105 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,560 purchasing a bunch of you know, expensive trees from somewhere. 106 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Where do you think this? Where where do 107 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,800 you think that comes from? And why are they so RESIVERI? 108 00:05:43,879 --> 00:05:47,959 Speaker 2: I think it comes from our cultural indoctrination, which tells 109 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,680 us that, you know, when we are looking for an 110 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,360 answer to or a solution of some kind, right, which is, 111 00:05:55,959 --> 00:06:00,759 we don't trust our food systems, and commercial foodsystems are 112 00:06:00,959 --> 00:06:06,240 incredibly harmful, unsustainable and dangerous to us as well to 113 00:06:06,439 --> 00:06:10,600 ingest like that's a reality. And so they're trying to 114 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,800 figure out a way to create sustainable food systems in 115 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,519 their own on their own land, which is also a 116 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,639 great seems like a great thing, it is great, But 117 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,319 then the way in which they go about it about 118 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,839 it is through that same system that created these sick 119 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,199 food systems, right, which is, they google edible plants and 120 00:06:32,199 --> 00:06:35,879 then they pick five plants from whatever thing they read 121 00:06:35,959 --> 00:06:39,879 online or they read some book, and then they go 122 00:06:39,959 --> 00:06:43,480 out and purchase these things from wherever. And they're completely 123 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,319 ignoring the functioning ecoisms around them and the cultural history 124 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:53,160 and knowledge of the ethnobotany of their region, like how 125 00:06:53,319 --> 00:06:57,600 humans used already the plants that existed around them for 126 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:02,639 you know, hundreds of thousands of years, and and in 127 00:07:02,759 --> 00:07:10,160 doing so, they're creating cascading harming to last for many, many, 128 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:11,759 many hundreds of years. 129 00:07:11,839 --> 00:07:14,519 Speaker 1: It is not thousands, right, because they're planting. They're basically, 130 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,120 in some cases directly planting. 131 00:07:16,199 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 2: Invasion is a form of colonialism and anthropocentrism, just like 132 00:07:24,839 --> 00:07:28,160 and it's it's so self centered, you know, it's like, oh, well, 133 00:07:28,199 --> 00:07:30,079 I want to eat this, so I'm going to take this, 134 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,519 ignore the function of the land around me and the 135 00:07:33,519 --> 00:07:36,160 function of the plants around me and animals and everything, 136 00:07:36,519 --> 00:07:39,560 and I'm going to plant this in my yard during 137 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,480 all of those things because I want to eat it. 138 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,519 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, colonialism or not, you know, I this time, 139 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,120 I get what you mean. But it's you know, the 140 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:49,040 terminology makes it sound like a college case, like you know, 141 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,560 like that. Okay, that is side. I'm sure I'm probably 142 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,240 just pissed some people off and saying that, but I 143 00:07:55,319 --> 00:07:58,519 just you know that I lived on the West Coast 144 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,480 too long. I heard people using that word for fucking 145 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,680 everything ship that had no connection to. 146 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,959 Speaker 3: It, to it. 147 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: It was just with these lecturing rich kids. But I 148 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,040 get what you mean. But the point is. I think 149 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,759 it's just anthrop it's just anthropostentrist. It's just I don't 150 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,439 understand when you tell them, like, look, there's fucking native 151 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,920 plants that do this too. There's native plants that are medicinal, 152 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:27,759 like fuck mullen. There's native plant like Urba Santa Aero Dictiana, California. 153 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:32,759 There's a wealth of ethno botanical knowledge from Native American 154 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:36,279 communities that many plants that do these same things that 155 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,919 have but they evolved there, and they co evolved there 156 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,000 with a wealth of other organisms, and they're not harmful 157 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:45,200 to the ecology. When you tell these permaculture people this ship, 158 00:08:45,639 --> 00:08:47,679 they get mad and they just ignore it. I mean, 159 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:48,639 that's what I don't care. 160 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't had that experience, but it does seem 161 00:08:53,519 --> 00:08:56,360 to be the crux of the problem is like that 162 00:08:56,639 --> 00:09:01,039 information is not quite readily available, like and has been 163 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,440 systematically suppressed and destroyed. 164 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,639 Speaker 1: In Yeah, I just destroyed by the death cult, by 165 00:09:06,639 --> 00:09:09,000 the same death cult they created this fucking mentality in 166 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:12,240 the first place. But yeah, but it's funny though. 167 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 3: I Mean, I also think it's laziness in a way. 168 00:09:14,399 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 2: It's just easier to like go out in the store 169 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,559 and buy you know, it's a cheap, easy way to 170 00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:25,000 go about things, you know, which is you know what 171 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,919 our culture is pushes us to do. 172 00:09:28,399 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I think I fucked up my algorithm. 173 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,200 Now I'm going to get like permaculture recommendations for you know, 174 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,759 because it's like youtubing this, I'm like, I want to 175 00:09:36,759 --> 00:09:39,759 hear what some of these goofballs have to say. And 176 00:09:39,759 --> 00:09:42,519 this little like frail frail ball guy that looks like 177 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:45,720 he's sexually overcharged and putting crystals in his rectum, you know, 178 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,120 I want to hear what he's got to say. And 179 00:09:47,159 --> 00:09:50,080 so But anyway, but the thing that I've I've noticed 180 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,799 that they keep repeating is they're talking about like, oh, 181 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,679 they use all these words. It's it's holistic, it's integrative, 182 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,399 it's blah blah. But to me, it's like there's someone 183 00:09:58,399 --> 00:10:02,320 who travels around the world looking at plant ecosystems. It's like, man, 184 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,519 that's just ecology. You're just describing the way a natural 185 00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:09,600 ecosystem functions, and you're that's good, that's good, you got everything. 186 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,600 But you're missing the functionality of native plants and that 187 00:10:13,759 --> 00:10:14,039 you know. 188 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and trying to recreate ecosystems. One, you're like trying 189 00:10:18,279 --> 00:10:20,320 to recreate the wheel and you're never going to do 190 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,440 it the way millions of years of evolution did it, right. 191 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,440 It's like finger painting versus Michelangelo. 192 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: Well, no, they don't understand, but they don't understand how 193 00:10:30,639 --> 00:10:33,279 that works. So that's the thing. They don't understand natural selection. 194 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,840 They don't understand population genetics. They don't understand how a landscape, 195 00:10:38,279 --> 00:10:41,399 whether it's you know, a lowland coastal you know, dry 196 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,000 deciduous forest, or whether it's an alpine mountain zone, how 197 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,879 those you know, have shaped. They've literally the fucking landscape 198 00:10:49,919 --> 00:10:54,000 itself is literally bred the species or the ecotype that 199 00:10:54,039 --> 00:10:58,399 you're encountering there just the same way a human would select. 200 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,039 Speaker 2: And people have bred them as well, like they've been 201 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,200 selected for over thousands of years as well. 202 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,159 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but that's a much shorter time span than 203 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,519 a lot of species. I mean, but either way, but yeah, 204 00:11:10,519 --> 00:11:14,159 oh yeah, or like you know, ground sloths inadvertently bred them, 205 00:11:14,159 --> 00:11:18,519 are hummingbirds inadvertently bread you know, plants with red tubular flowers. 206 00:11:18,519 --> 00:11:20,919 They don't understand that. And that's okay to I understand. 207 00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:24,080 I get that. It's the fucking it's how like rabid. 208 00:11:24,279 --> 00:11:27,080 Some of them turn yeah, and then they accuse you 209 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,559 of working for Bear and just start saying dumb shit. 210 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,759 And at that level, I'm like Jesus christ Man, like 211 00:11:31,799 --> 00:11:34,440 come on, like this is this is over? Like you're 212 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,600 not you don't think I've heard this before, Like you're 213 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,159 just parroting stuff now, you know. Yeah, but I want 214 00:11:41,159 --> 00:11:42,840 to I guess I want to understand it more. And 215 00:11:42,879 --> 00:11:45,679 I want to understand because it seems like, with a 216 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,360 few tweaks, this could be something that's not even worth 217 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,440 making fun of anymore, Like it could be a cool. 218 00:11:50,279 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely, And I think there are people out 219 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,200 there doing it in a in a much more sustainable way. 220 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,840 They're just uncommon and it's a bit more of a 221 00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:05,679 focus on foraging rather than trying to create an entire 222 00:12:05,879 --> 00:12:08,759 new ecosystem in your own yard or on your own land, 223 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,440 like learning how to work with the seasons and work 224 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,679 with the species that occur already in your region. You know, 225 00:12:15,759 --> 00:12:18,679 we have native bay trees, you can use those for herbs. 226 00:12:18,759 --> 00:12:22,799 We have native xanthoxylon, you can use those for schuan peppers. 227 00:12:23,159 --> 00:12:27,399 We have so many different native existing sumac berries, so 228 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:32,639 many different native existing foods that are abundantly available. You 229 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,120 don't even have to try planting. You just have to 230 00:12:35,279 --> 00:12:38,440 figure out areas that you can sustainably harvest them. 231 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,279 Speaker 1: And I think people this is another reason. Like with 232 00:12:41,399 --> 00:12:43,559 kill your lawn, it's like you can turn your your 233 00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:49,279 yard into an experimental ground for you know the usefulness 234 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,600 of native plants by growing them, and then they're right 235 00:12:52,639 --> 00:12:55,039 outside your door and now you can see, Okay, maybe 236 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,759 I'll use this for this. Or maybe that lukena that's 237 00:12:57,799 --> 00:13:00,960 growing outside the native one, not the one I can 238 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,840 you know, it grows really fast, it produces straight timber. 239 00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:06,399 Maybe I can use those as like in place of 240 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,240 bamboo poles. Yeah, maybe the xanthoslam I got that my 241 00:13:09,279 --> 00:13:12,000 friend yard too. Maybe I can use that. It's got 242 00:13:12,039 --> 00:13:15,320 a peppery taste. Maybe I can use that instead. I 243 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,000 guess that's I don't know, man. I just I hope 244 00:13:18,039 --> 00:13:22,000 this stops being a thing it's as common in a 245 00:13:22,039 --> 00:13:24,000 decade or two, because I get tired of fucking arguing 246 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:24,799 with these people, you know. 247 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the big issue is just the consumerist, 248 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,759 you know, capitalist consumerist mindset, and that's how we understand 249 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,080 and interact with the world. And until you kind of 250 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,720 change that, you're going to be key. You're going to 251 00:13:40,759 --> 00:13:44,759 continue to fall victim to the same issues. And that's 252 00:13:44,799 --> 00:13:48,039 what really has irked me with when I see a 253 00:13:48,039 --> 00:13:54,440 lot of permaculturalist is there's this constant trend. There are 254 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:59,360 trends and like hot new plants because it's all based 255 00:13:59,399 --> 00:14:03,320 still on capitalism, right, and so they have to somebody 256 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,919 who is you know, selling, someone has to sell your product, 257 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,519 and they because they need to survive, and so they're 258 00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:13,840 going to go out and find a new spinach substitute 259 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:19,240 plant from Southeast Asia. And it's it's always like new, new, new, 260 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,399 some new thing, and everybody has to go out and 261 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,240 buy it and then it and then they're onto the 262 00:14:25,279 --> 00:14:28,639 next thing. Meanwhile that plant is creeping out into their neighborhood. 263 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, but it's okay because it's like medicinal. 264 00:14:34,639 --> 00:14:37,639 But that that's the the thing that I guess it's 265 00:14:37,639 --> 00:14:40,879 what I'm hoping that that maybe, like you know, native 266 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:45,919 plant gardening inspires people to do, is like every instead 267 00:14:45,919 --> 00:14:52,399 of making this you know, homogenous, homogeneous, homogenized plant list, 268 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,679 you know, experiment with what's what evolved in your area 269 00:14:55,759 --> 00:14:58,879 and what actually has millions of years of ties of evolution. 270 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and research poganical uses of native plants. Pretty much 271 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:08,360 every single native plant out there has been used in 272 00:15:08,399 --> 00:15:10,039 some way by humans. 273 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,399 Speaker 1: And embrace the difference. To embrace, embrace what's different. Well, 274 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,240 this region has a different plant list than this one, 275 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,600 and that's fucking cool. Let's try this instead of trying 276 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,759 to just homogenize everything, like yeah, all this plant, well, 277 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,480 plant dot Comfrey European Comfrey cause you know it's good 278 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,919 for blah blah blah. Or you know, we'll plant Asian 279 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,960 bamboo because it's good as a timber for biodynamic whatever 280 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:33,919 the fuck and they put all these words on there. 281 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,919 Just yeah, man, I just again just going. 282 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,919 Speaker 3: A little bit deeper too. 283 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 2: If you know you need nitrogen fixing, then look up 284 00:15:43,519 --> 00:15:46,559 native nitrogen fixing plants in your area, how to identify 285 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,200 them and how to collect seeds from them. 286 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: Right, what collades are nitrogen fixing, Like some of. 287 00:15:50,919 --> 00:15:56,919 Speaker 2: The specific alkaloid in this comfory that is the you know, 288 00:15:57,039 --> 00:16:00,720 the active ingredient that you're using it for. Than google 289 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,799 and figure out which native plants also contain that active ingredient. 290 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, And in doing so you're also preserving pieces of 291 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,840 the living world specific to that place, which you know, 292 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,799 up until then may have been unappreciated and unused, and 293 00:16:13,879 --> 00:16:16,720 also getting cleared the makeway for a fucking raw stress 294 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,440 for less or some other depressing shit AutoZone dollars or whatever. 295 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,639 Speaker 2: And most importantly, you're continuing to support all of the 296 00:16:24,879 --> 00:16:30,399 insects and wildlife that depend upon those native species instead 297 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,960 of bringing in this non native version of it and 298 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,679 which they have not evolved with and are not capable 299 00:16:37,679 --> 00:16:38,360 of using. 300 00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: So so permaculture is kind of from what I gather, 301 00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:44,960 it's just it's about functionality, and it's about kind of, yeah, 302 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:50,360 mimicking an ecosystem with an emphasis on functioning functionality, but 303 00:16:50,559 --> 00:16:53,080 all of the all of the emphasis is on humans 304 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,399 and how it benefits us, with little to no regard 305 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,759 for how an actual native ecosystem functions, what checks and 306 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:03,759 bet bolences in an ecosystem are, why invasive plants are invasive, 307 00:17:04,559 --> 00:17:08,039 et cetera. If they could just instead of like kicking 308 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:11,480 and screaming and doing mental gymnastics to ignore all of that, 309 00:17:11,559 --> 00:17:13,400 if they could just try to embrace it a little 310 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,359 bit and study it and understand it native plant functionality 311 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,440 and why native is you know, how it differs from 312 00:17:20,519 --> 00:17:24,880 invasive and et cetera. And why plants like kudzho are 313 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,519 invasive here but not in Asia, and why plants like 314 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:31,160 prickly pair are invasive in Australia but not here. If 315 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,440 they could just get that down, it might be it 316 00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:37,079 might be a pretty cool system. But they're resistant to 317 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,519 change right now, and that's what kind of blows my mind. 318 00:17:40,839 --> 00:17:44,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they're defensive, which is normal and you know, 319 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:50,880 but also also you know, prevents you from actually learning 320 00:17:51,279 --> 00:17:54,079 and growing. When you're just defensive, you got to like 321 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,119 try try to open up and listen and consider maybe 322 00:17:57,319 --> 00:17:59,839 maybe what I am doing is causing harm because the 323 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,200 problem is that people have good intentions, right, They always 324 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,920 have good intentions, and then they get defensive when someone 325 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,200 says what you're doing is actually causing harm, when. 326 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,640 Speaker 3: In reality it's like it's oh, you know there. 327 00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:15,279 Speaker 2: It is inevitable that you will do things with good 328 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:19,119 intentions and an accidentally cause harm. That happens, and it 329 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,240 doesn't mean you're a bad person. 330 00:18:23,079 --> 00:18:23,799 Speaker 3: Pay to do that. 331 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 2: We've all done shit like that, We've all made made mistakes. 332 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:33,559 You can just accept that you know new knowledge and say, oh, well, 333 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,640 now that I know, I can do differently. But when 334 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,119 you just drag your put your heels in and you know, 335 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:46,839 refuse to listen or gain new information, it's a real 336 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,480 it's a it's a real toxic situation. 337 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,039 Speaker 1: I just for me and I guess we could wrap 338 00:18:53,079 --> 00:18:54,599 this up in like ten minutes or so. I want 339 00:18:54,599 --> 00:18:56,680 to talk about that Dowall Ryan book because that's some 340 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,000 of the silliest shit I've encountered. And I know you 341 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,000 actually read read pretty far, like. 342 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,839 Speaker 2: The first couple chapters because a friend of mine who 343 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,680 I care about in respect and he was in joke permaculture, 344 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,319 gave it to me and wanted me to read it. 345 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,039 And so you know, I'm like, I know this is 346 00:19:14,079 --> 00:19:17,759 gonna be bullshits really quick. 347 00:19:17,799 --> 00:19:20,599 Speaker 1: It's the book is called Beyond the War on Invasive 348 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:25,240 Species and it's about by dow O'Ryan, which is was 349 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,160 a unit. Someone asked me like, oh, is that an 350 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:28,880 Asian lady? And I was like, no, it's like a 351 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,599 white woman from Portland. No, no offense. I'm just saying 352 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,240 it fits again. All this ship fits the bill. It's 353 00:19:34,279 --> 00:19:38,680 like se predictable. It's like you just stereotypes anyway, So 354 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,000 so you read the book, so what what what. 355 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,599 Speaker 3: Are I did read the whole book. I read the 356 00:19:42,599 --> 00:19:43,200 first couple. 357 00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: Of Yeah, that's a tall order, and immediately. 358 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,039 Speaker 2: The first example that she used was like this anecdote. 359 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,119 You know, again, this is not based on science. You know, 360 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,359 these are based on kind of anecdotes. And she was 361 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,640 antidote is like a spiritual antidote, like would make me 362 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:07,759 not want to puke. She she was talking about Spartana alternifolio, 363 00:20:07,799 --> 00:20:11,920 which is a coastal marsh grass that you know, had 364 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,480 invaded this area I can't remember, in the coastal northeast, 365 00:20:15,559 --> 00:20:20,440 and how it eventually ended up kind of you know, 366 00:20:20,519 --> 00:20:24,119 balancing itself out and stopped being invasive. But what she 367 00:20:24,319 --> 00:20:28,480 didn't say is that Spartana alternifolia is native to the 368 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,279 US and native just you know, a couple few hundred 369 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,920 miles south of where it was introduced. So this is 370 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,519 just nearly a range expansion. It's still interacting with all 371 00:20:40,559 --> 00:20:45,839 of the same checks and balances. And so when I read, 372 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,799 as soon as I saw her using Spartina plerofolio as 373 00:20:49,839 --> 00:20:52,319 an example, I was like, this is a native plant, 374 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,079 this is not an invasive plant. This would be considered 375 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,359 like an you know as range expansion or an introduction. 376 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,839 But it misses the whole concept of what a native 377 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:05,799 ecosystem is. 378 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: And it was it was probably and when you zoom out, 379 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,480 you know enough, you see, Okay, this thing was probably native. 380 00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:15,599 It's probably occurred there five hundred thousand years ago before 381 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,839 climate change and the you know drying of the plesisine, 382 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,920 the cooling and drying on the placing whatever. But that's 383 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,000 another thing that people say, like, well, how far back 384 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,519 do you have to go a tie until tough native. 385 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,000 It's well, it's not about time, it's about functionality, and 386 00:21:31,079 --> 00:21:33,240 it's not just about a certain species. It's about the 387 00:21:33,279 --> 00:21:36,720 whole lineage, like the clade. And of course there's exceptions 388 00:21:36,759 --> 00:21:38,960 to it, but you know, like in the in concrete body, 389 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,640 that's what I talk about. It's talking about the ecosystems 390 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,039 for the most part. And there are exceptions like coast 391 00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:46,920 to coast, uh, you know, invasion like something on the 392 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,920 west coast might behave invasive on the east like some 393 00:21:49,039 --> 00:21:52,960 loop and species or vice versa for rabiniusu to Acasia. 394 00:21:53,319 --> 00:21:56,160 But for the most part, these ecosystems it's it's isolation, 395 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,640 and that's like a key understanding of how speciation works, isolation. 396 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:02,920 But there's none of that, like none of the perma 397 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,000 culture people seem to have any of that, Like what 398 00:22:05,079 --> 00:22:05,599 causes news. 399 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,799 Speaker 2: Nobody's taught that, which is a huge issue, you know, 400 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,000 And so they're taught like a very kind of dumbed 401 00:22:15,039 --> 00:22:18,960 down version of how ecosystems function, and you don't get 402 00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:23,640 the full understanding of how these things work. And to 403 00:22:23,759 --> 00:22:28,359 compare spartana to like an invasive to you know, Emperada, 404 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,319 Cylindrica coh and grass, you know, like which is also 405 00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:36,240 which is invasive, And I would never see I would 406 00:22:36,279 --> 00:22:39,440 never call spartana altern fully invasive, although it might have 407 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:44,000 invaded that area in this range expansion, right, or it 408 00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:47,720 might have been introduced or whatever, but it's still functionally 409 00:22:47,759 --> 00:22:51,960 within the same host of species. It has still many 410 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,960 of the same relationships that keep it in check, whereas Emperada, 411 00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:00,160 which is introduced from a tire entirely different continent, has 412 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,519 none of those existing relationships, and so spreads completely unchecked. 413 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,279 Speaker 1: Right, rather than being separated by when was the last 414 00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:08,920 time sportina occurred there? What fifty thousand years ago hundred 415 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,400 who knows, but it's recent, it's not the lineage is 416 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,279 on the continent and not that far away versus you know, 417 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,960 ten to forty million years of separation, you know, I mean, 418 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,559 why do you think there's you know, why do you 419 00:23:20,599 --> 00:23:23,440 think Australia is so bad with invasive species because it's 420 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,279 been separated from the rest of the world for fifty 421 00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:29,160 million fucking years. It's it's it's a direct correlation between 422 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,640 time and distance. There's multiple factors, and not every non 423 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,319 native is an invasive, but every invasive is a non native. 424 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,440 It's crazy to me. I mean, go ahead. 425 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 2: And that's the thing is that each invasive speces has 426 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,039 to be dealt with on a case by case basis, 427 00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:49,799 because each invasive species or even non native species introduced 428 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,119 and spreading in wild areas is not going to become 429 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,440 an issue in the same way that something like cog 430 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:02,200 and grass becomes. Right, So there's so much complexity to 431 00:24:02,319 --> 00:24:07,599 it and it gets simplified on both sides of the spectrum. 432 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,160 Right there are native plant purists that are like, no 433 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:17,480 non native plant. You know, you can't plant Spartana alternifolia 434 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:19,000 over here because it's native. 435 00:24:19,039 --> 00:24:20,279 Speaker 3: Fifty miles south of here. 436 00:24:20,839 --> 00:24:23,519 Speaker 1: You know, it's only want local ecotype. 437 00:24:24,039 --> 00:24:26,759 Speaker 2: And then there are people on the other side of 438 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:29,720 the spectrum which is like, no, no, plant is invasive. 439 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:35,720 You know, all plants have this right to exist. No, no, 440 00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:40,160 and when in reality it's this in between right, and 441 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,160 it's a case by case basis, you know, it's I mean, 442 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,319 I work with Terrea texafolia, and there have been all 443 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:52,799 of these restoration conservation projects which are moving this plant 444 00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:58,039 further north because they think it will do better further north, 445 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,240 when in reality, the reason that it's declined down here 446 00:25:02,279 --> 00:25:05,799 in its native habitat is because of an introduced fungal pathogen. 447 00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:09,599 And when they're moving that tree to try to save it, 448 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,119 they're spreading this introduced fungal pathogen too other grin or 449 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,880 a further north. And so it's like even trying to 450 00:25:17,079 --> 00:25:20,640 save one species of plant. You know, every time you 451 00:25:20,759 --> 00:25:24,680 move a plant, you're moving other things with it. 452 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 3: It's it's so complex. 453 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 2: It's just so much more complex than we can even 454 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,359 begin to comprehend, like our understanding. 455 00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:34,839 Speaker 1: The other thing that you hear people say though, the 456 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,759 other thing. And I when I was and this all 457 00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:38,880 came up because I was in Nuevo Leone, and these 458 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,880 beautiful oak forests at like six thousand feet and there's 459 00:25:42,079 --> 00:25:45,880 s photolists everywhere, as photous fistulosis, which is a Mediterranean 460 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,559 member of the alo family. And I was down in 461 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,960 twenty nineteen. My friend Carlos mentioned it. He's like, this 462 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,039 is a fucking horrible invasive plant for us, but I 463 00:25:54,039 --> 00:25:56,319 didn't see that much. And then just where I was now, 464 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,480 it was fucking everywhere. Like it wasn't just hitting pasture 465 00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:03,519 land or like abandoned pasture lands. It was hitting like 466 00:26:03,799 --> 00:26:07,160 fucking pinion forest, you know, or like it wasn't as 467 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,680 dominant because there wasn't as much sunlight, but it was 468 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,559 still there. It was clearly everywhere. It's you know, and 469 00:26:13,839 --> 00:26:16,839 so they you meet these invasion biology deniers, you're like, wow, 470 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,119 at all lay attacks disturbed areas well, every ecosystem has, 471 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,440 Disturbance is a part of every fucking ecosystem. And not 472 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,440 only that, but you know what also hits disturbed areas 473 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,599 is native pioneer species. And you know what also tends 474 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:33,839 to be a lot more diverse and beneficial to the 475 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,200 life around it. Disturbed areas that have been hit or 476 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,880 been you know, colonized by native pioneer species. So to 477 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,279 say that it's just disturbance, it's well, duh, it's a 478 00:26:44,279 --> 00:26:47,039 part of any ecosystem you clear, you clear land away 479 00:26:47,079 --> 00:26:49,880 for something, it's a blank canvas. New shit's gonna move in. 480 00:26:50,319 --> 00:26:53,480 That doesn't mean anything, like you'd rather you prefer to 481 00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:57,640 have native plant species there rather than ones that have 482 00:26:57,799 --> 00:27:00,279 cheat codes, because there's no insect or fung in this 483 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,359 ecosystem that takes them down, you know, whereas like they 484 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,519 might behave over there. And of course, you know, then 485 00:27:05,519 --> 00:27:08,759 they say the xenophobia thing. They're like, oh, it's xenophobia, 486 00:27:08,799 --> 00:27:12,400 it's eugenics. Shit, got it's just the fucking arguments, just 487 00:27:12,519 --> 00:27:16,200 the dumb shit. That's That's like a maddeningly stupid take. 488 00:27:16,559 --> 00:27:18,880 You're like, well, that's not xenophobia because some of our 489 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,559 some of my favorite native plants are invasive as hell 490 00:27:21,599 --> 00:27:25,240 in Europe, you know, Like I've been to blue gum 491 00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:28,720 eucalyptus forests in Tasmania. They're fucking incredible, But when I 492 00:27:28,799 --> 00:27:34,039 see it forming monocultures in California, they're boring and depressing 493 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,559 and there's nothing there. Like I saw a redwood forest 494 00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:39,799 in New Zealand, and it was so bizarre because it 495 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,759 was it wasn't a redwood forest. It was there was 496 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,359 nothing else growing there. There wasn't like all the cool 497 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,400 shit you see in a redwood forest in California. None 498 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,079 of that was there. It was just a monoculture and 499 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,680 it was dead. It's like, you know, it wasn't the 500 00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:55,839 cool potocarp temperate rainforest you see in New Zealand. So 501 00:27:56,599 --> 00:27:59,319 but yeah, I mean I had this, go go ahead, 502 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:00,000 go ahead, I'll. 503 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,799 Speaker 2: One of the things I really just want to impress 504 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,559 is that a lot of people defend invasive plants because 505 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,279 they see some type of animal or something using it, 506 00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:15,960 and they think, well, see, look at this. This is 507 00:28:16,039 --> 00:28:19,000 being used and this or it's doing the same thing 508 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,559 that some other native plant does, and so it is 509 00:28:23,799 --> 00:28:26,279 performing the same functions and we can just let it 510 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:27,880 be and it will fill that role. 511 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 3: And maybe in some cases that does happen, but not 512 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,559 most of the time, And because. 513 00:28:36,279 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: We don't unders fully understand the complexity of these interacting organisms. 514 00:28:42,519 --> 00:28:46,039 And one of the cases in Florida is hydrilla, which 515 00:28:46,119 --> 00:28:52,400 is an emerg submerged aquatic plant that occurs in many 516 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,880 of our waterways now, and it grows excessively fast, like 517 00:28:56,079 --> 00:29:01,920 unbelievably fast. And yet when our you know, when the 518 00:29:02,039 --> 00:29:06,519 Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission treats this plant, you know, 519 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:12,200 with herbicides in our waterways, the best fishermen and the 520 00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:16,480 doug hunters get all up in arms because the ducks 521 00:29:16,599 --> 00:29:20,839 and the bas use that plant, and they think, well, 522 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:26,400 see the not the native submerged aquatic plants are gone now, 523 00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:29,680 and so why don't we let this hydrilla occur here 524 00:29:30,359 --> 00:29:34,200 and play the role that it plays for providing protection 525 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,079 and food for fish and for ducks. But what they 526 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,440 don't understand is that it doesn't stop growing, and it 527 00:29:42,599 --> 00:29:46,640 keeps growing until it grows so densely that it becomes 528 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,839 an anaerobic matte rotting mass and kills everything. And so 529 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,480 if you don't treat it, it literally becomes like a 530 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:01,599 death site, like a dead lake. Can't it's myopia, Yeah, 531 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,839 it's short sightedness and lack of ecological understanding, and. 532 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: That's and that's excusable. But again the ignorant that the 533 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,359 arrogance though, like when you tell someone and they're like, no, 534 00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:15,480 like I just like this guy I got into an 535 00:30:15,559 --> 00:30:17,559 argument with the fucking common seconds, stay out of it. 536 00:30:17,599 --> 00:30:20,079 But anyway, and you know, he's like, cite a paper 537 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,799 for me on on how s photalist fistulosis is invasive. 538 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,160 So okay, fucking it was easy. I went on Google scholar, 539 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,440 I found one and this was in South Africa. There's 540 00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:32,559 members of the AlOH family in South Africa. That means 541 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,920 there's probably checks and balances for s photalists too, or 542 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,240 there should be. But guess what. It's listed as a 543 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,759 like horribly invasive weed down there too. So I mean 544 00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:45,359 that's just test it's just testament to how bad this is. 545 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,640 And certainly I haven't seen an invasion like this, like 546 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,799 a species behaving like this, an invasive species behaving like 547 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,880 this in a while. I mean, it is, it's comparable 548 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,680 to kudzu. It's fucking horrible the way it is in 549 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,839 northern you know, mid elevation Mexico. It's fucking insane. And 550 00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:04,440 so I sent them the pay. I posted the paper 551 00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:07,119 and then I you know, took direct quotes from it 552 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,960 and like, yes, we recommend this species for you know, 553 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,799 list one a of like top invasive plant species in 554 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,160 South Africa. And then he's like, well that just says 555 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,400 it's invasive. That doesn't say how it's detrimental to the ecosystem. 556 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,839 And I It's like, what the fuck. What the fuck 557 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,400 do you think invasive means? 558 00:31:25,519 --> 00:31:28,279 Speaker 2: Man, Like, it's yeah, to be invasive, it has to 559 00:31:28,359 --> 00:31:32,839 be categorized as causing harm in in natural areas. 560 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:35,319 Speaker 1: It's well, it says that in the description. I mean, 561 00:31:35,559 --> 00:31:37,799 but he wanted like, well, what exactly does it do? 562 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,359 It's like Jesus Christ, man like, don't you're just being 563 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,240 fucking You're just being a dick. Now, you're just being 564 00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:46,039 like it's it out compete, Like what what about limited resource? 565 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:46,359 Speaker 2: Mind? 566 00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: Yeah? I just well, well, yeah, an ego probably too 567 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,200 competing for limited resources in a closed ecosystem, Like what 568 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,799 the fuck? What don't you get like out competing, you know, 569 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,640 there's only like so much food, you know, light, whatever, 570 00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:07,440 nutrients available, you know, root space available, Like what doesn't 571 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,000 every every spot you see an invasive like mullin or 572 00:32:11,119 --> 00:32:13,319 s photolist, this is a place where there could be 573 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,160 something else, but there's not because they outcompete. There's the 574 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,240 roots overtake. They don't know, there's no insects that keep 575 00:32:21,319 --> 00:32:23,200 these things in check. There's no fundy to keep these 576 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,759 things in check, and all that logic checks out. When 577 00:32:25,759 --> 00:32:27,480 you think about it, you're like, oh, that makes sense. 578 00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:29,240 I get it. It's the same way you think about 579 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,640 like the way a machine functions. I get it. So 580 00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:33,400 what what is so hard? 581 00:32:33,559 --> 00:32:33,599 Speaker 2: Like? 582 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,599 Speaker 1: Why is why the staunching? 583 00:32:35,759 --> 00:32:38,599 Speaker 2: Do you think One of the issues too, is that 584 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:45,960 people don't understand evolution and evolutionary interactions within ecosystems, and 585 00:32:46,039 --> 00:32:49,599 so they think that, you know, one hundred two hundred years, 586 00:32:50,119 --> 00:32:52,799 that things will balance out and that this plant will 587 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,720 now become essentially native, right, that's I think most people 588 00:32:57,839 --> 00:33:00,920 really do think that. They're like, oh, well then the 589 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,640 bees and the and the plants will all adapt to 590 00:33:04,839 --> 00:33:06,680 it in a few hundred years. 591 00:33:06,839 --> 00:33:08,119 Speaker 1: Wish it only took that long. 592 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, But they don't understand that that's like a 593 00:33:11,759 --> 00:33:14,880 teeny tiny drop in the bucket of a pollutionary time, 594 00:33:15,079 --> 00:33:16,920 and it means it's worthless. 595 00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: And I always like making the comparison to when they're like, well, 596 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,559 you're never going to get it all, so why try it. 597 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,640 It's like, Okay, well, let's take the cancer analogy, Like 598 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,079 there are leukemias that are completely manageable if you take 599 00:33:28,119 --> 00:33:30,279 a pill once a day, but if you don't, they're 600 00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:32,720 going to fucking kill you within a few years. Whereas 601 00:33:32,759 --> 00:33:34,319 if you take a pill once a day, you can 602 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,440 live for thirty or forty years. Would you tell that 603 00:33:36,559 --> 00:33:38,720 person you're never You're never gonna be able to get 604 00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:40,680 it all out of your system. Would you tell that person, 605 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,599 fuck it, don't bother? Like, that's that's eradication is not 606 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,920 the point, genius. It's it's minimizing biodiversity loss and extinction. 607 00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:52,599 And like, why why are you advocating for the homogenization 608 00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:55,079 of nature? It's fucking one. 609 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 2: Because at some point in you know, thousands, hundreds of 610 00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:06,240 thousands of years, things will adapt to this, you know, eventually, right, 611 00:34:06,519 --> 00:34:10,880 But in the meantime, what you end up with is extinctions, 612 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,559 is extinctions of plants, other plants and animals and butterflies 613 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:20,360 and bees and all sorts of things start to go extinctly. 614 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 3: We are seeing that happening now, you know. 615 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 2: Songbird populations are drastically declining, Insect populations are drastically declining, 616 00:34:30,559 --> 00:34:35,039 and people don't realize that a lot of the that 617 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:38,199 the role of invasive plants has a major part to 618 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,000 play in those species to college. 619 00:34:40,039 --> 00:34:43,119 Speaker 1: Oh yes, smothering an ecosystem and preventing a bird's food 620 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:45,679 source from growing, or an insects food source for growing, 621 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,400 and then that insect goes on the feed. How are 622 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,599 many bird species? I mean, I see you could see 623 00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,280 that in South Texas with buffalograss. I've literally seen this 624 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,599 every fucking ecosystem I've gone to. I've seen invasive species 625 00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:59,800 doing the same thing, different casts of species, some of 626 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,840 which I like, doing the same thing. 627 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,760 Speaker 2: And there are things happening that we aren't seen too. 628 00:35:06,039 --> 00:35:10,679 Like a bird is eating the berries of some new 629 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,400 plant that you planted in your yard, and they might 630 00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:16,400 like it, and they you know, generations of these birds. 631 00:35:16,199 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 3: Might be eating it. 632 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 2: But we don't know the effects of the chemicals of 633 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,440 those berries on this plant on this bird, and how 634 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,079 that could be harming the bird over periods of time. 635 00:35:29,639 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 3: You know, we don't know what. 636 00:35:31,039 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 2: Types of complex cascades happened because you introduce one new 637 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,960 plant to your yard. That's why I always say, like 638 00:35:40,119 --> 00:35:43,159 it's always safest to just plant a native plant if 639 00:35:43,159 --> 00:35:45,840 you care about plants and animals and ecosystems and your 640 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,559 own and own who you know, human survival and at 641 00:35:49,599 --> 00:35:53,320 all all, Like planting native is really the safest bed 642 00:35:53,639 --> 00:35:54,079 there are. 643 00:35:55,559 --> 00:35:57,280 Speaker 1: In there for so long. It's so if there's something 644 00:35:57,559 --> 00:35:59,800 wrong could have if something detrimental could have happen, it 645 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,000 would have happened already. And maybe it did years ago. 646 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,039 You know what, the water has settled now and now 647 00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:07,760 it's like an equilibrium. 648 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 2: And yeah, and there are and I'm not like a 649 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,000 native plant purist, like there are non native edible plants 650 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,360 that you know, have been planted and grown for a 651 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,239 long time here and they you know, originate from from 652 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,679 regions that have very different climates, and so they are 653 00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:32,079 they don't spread as a great you know, aggressively or invasively, 654 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:36,639 Like citrus in Florida is a pretty safe plant to plant. 655 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,119 You can eat it and enjoy it. It's not going 656 00:36:40,199 --> 00:36:43,960 to be useful really to most of our flora and fauna, 657 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,480 but you can eat it and know that most of 658 00:36:47,559 --> 00:36:50,599 it is not going to spread invasively, although some of 659 00:36:50,679 --> 00:36:52,039 them do spread it also. 660 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,039 Speaker 1: Like I'm not trying to make a fucking religion out 661 00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:56,519 of it, Like any dogma is faulty. If you're one 662 00:36:56,559 --> 00:37:00,199 hundred percent like extremist about anything, it's faulty I was 663 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,800 planting fucking sausage trees ka Gellia africana down here in 664 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,559 South Texas. They die back in a freeze, but you know, 665 00:37:06,679 --> 00:37:09,519 and they're native to fucking equatorial Africa. But they're fucking 666 00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:12,559 dope plants and they get a really cool inflorescence and 667 00:37:13,039 --> 00:37:15,920 they're not invasive. If it was an invasive plant, I wouldn't, 668 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,559 you know, I'd say I love that. But yeah, I 669 00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:19,159 can't really plant that here. It's going to fuck up 670 00:37:19,159 --> 00:37:21,280 the ecosystem, you know. But it's not a religion. It's 671 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,119 not like that. It's not you know, I just there's again, 672 00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:26,480 it's functionality and reason with all this, and I can 673 00:37:26,599 --> 00:37:29,920 forgive people for not for not knowing this stuff. We're 674 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,719 all severed from the world, the living world, you know. 675 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,559 We all grow up in the same shitty circumstances of 676 00:37:35,639 --> 00:37:39,679 fucking asphalt and consumerism and lack of identity and just 677 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,239 everyone being fucking miserable all the time and trapping their cars. 678 00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:45,800 But when you when you show people, when you show people, 679 00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:48,079 you know, oh, this is the way you show them 680 00:37:48,119 --> 00:37:50,639 the logic, and they still they can refuse to look 681 00:37:50,679 --> 00:37:52,760 at it and cling to what they're goods that's when 682 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,280 I'm like, man, forget you. I don't have time for 683 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:56,840 this shit, you know, and a. 684 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,159 Speaker 2: Perma culture is coming in and like clear, I mean 685 00:38:00,519 --> 00:38:05,000 they're fifteen acres of like hickory and oak, and you know, 686 00:38:05,119 --> 00:38:10,360 all of these edible plants to plant what they call 687 00:38:10,679 --> 00:38:15,199 a permaculture, edible landscape food for esteta. 688 00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:18,079 Speaker 1: Oh that's the thing that's like, you know, I was 689 00:38:18,159 --> 00:38:21,079 knocking you for making a colonialism markment for but it 690 00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:23,360 reminds me of like some fucking yuppie moving to a 691 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,960 neighborhood that's exactly and being like, hey, data'd be cool. 692 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,519 It's like an avocado toast, like coffee beistro here that 693 00:38:30,639 --> 00:38:32,840 no one in the neighborhood can afford. Fuck you guys, 694 00:38:33,119 --> 00:38:35,760 I like this stuff. It's pretty cool. It's my neighborhood now. 695 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,360 And then just being like, whatever the fuck I want 696 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,559 is what's important. Fuck you guys. You know, oh, you 697 00:38:41,639 --> 00:38:44,039 can't afford to live here anymore, like five ten years 698 00:38:44,119 --> 00:38:46,320 down the line. Not my problem. Go fucking move the 699 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,519 you know, the bleak suburbs or whatever. I like this rustic, 700 00:38:50,679 --> 00:38:53,400 you know, urban neighborhood. It's the same shit. It's the 701 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,679 same shit. I saw have in American cities fifteen to 702 00:38:55,679 --> 00:38:57,320 twenty years ago. It's crazy. 703 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:03,039 Speaker 2: And as humans, you know, we evolved eating plants seasonally, 704 00:39:03,559 --> 00:39:06,920 we evolved eating a lot of you know, native plants 705 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,960 that have that don't have that do do have a 706 00:39:11,039 --> 00:39:15,360 lot of the chemicals that they're you know, cultivated hybridized 707 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,440 versions no longer have because they've been cultivated out of them. 708 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,800 So like we are likely missing a lot, you know, 709 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,840 in our diet that we could be getting from native 710 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:33,000 edible wild plants that would be beneficial to us. Like 711 00:39:33,159 --> 00:39:35,719 a lot of those bitter compounds that might not make 712 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,239 them not as tasty, can actually be very. 713 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,599 Speaker 1: Bad, right well, but also some of them can be 714 00:39:41,679 --> 00:39:43,679 bread out. I mean that's why, like you know, well. 715 00:39:43,559 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 3: There definitely can be bred out. But I don't know, 716 00:39:47,079 --> 00:39:48,320 I just it's like. 717 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,079 Speaker 2: I don't want to put oak trees all over Florida, 718 00:39:54,199 --> 00:39:58,440 and if so few people recognize that those acorns are 719 00:39:58,599 --> 00:40:01,199 edible and can make delish as flour and bread. 720 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,199 Speaker 1: You know, you know, you'll go to the Korean grocery store, 721 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:05,719 you'll see acorn flower in there. 722 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 3: Exactly. 723 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:14,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, they sell quirks Virginiana flower in Japan, and we 724 00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:15,280 have it growing all over. 725 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,199 Speaker 3: The place, and we fucking don't you know, don't get. 726 00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 1: Well, that's a huge that's a huge opportunity too. That's 727 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,559 being missed out on with all this, with with the 728 00:40:23,599 --> 00:40:27,440 way permaculture is now, is like developing and breeding local 729 00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:31,039 native plants, you know. For again, it's like the same thing. 730 00:40:31,079 --> 00:40:33,840 You grow a thousand ceilings phenotypic variation, A couple come 731 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,599 out differently, You pick those, you breed those few generations 732 00:40:36,639 --> 00:40:38,760 of that. You could probably make some fucking I mean, 733 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,039 that's how all modern crops were invented to begin with. 734 00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:44,320 You know, you do that with some native plants, you 735 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,239 could create some dope shit. But no one's doing it 736 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,039 because they're trying to grow ship that they bought in 737 00:40:48,119 --> 00:40:52,519 a fucking you know, online from nine thousand miles away. 738 00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:54,920 That's that evolved nine thousand miles away, but it's being 739 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,800 grown in like the whatever, the permaculture nursery, what the fuck? 740 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 2: I don't know, man, I just but it has shut 741 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,920 down when I hear it's sustainably sourced label and then 742 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,400 they feel good about themselves. 743 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,039 Speaker 1: I just shut down when I hear that, like when 744 00:41:09,079 --> 00:41:11,079 I hear the words food force, because of all this 745 00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:12,960 ship and I when I hear the words food forest, 746 00:41:13,039 --> 00:41:15,079 I'm just like, oh God, it's like a funk. 747 00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 2: When I hear the word food forest, I think about 748 00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:19,719 the forests that naturally are all around me. 749 00:41:20,159 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 3: These are food forest. 750 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: Being flaked. 751 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:25,679 Speaker 3: Ecosystems are permaculture. 752 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,559 Speaker 1: Someone sticks like a fucking sewing needle that's been held 753 00:41:28,599 --> 00:41:30,800 over a flame into my urethra. And I'm listening to 754 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,960 like Michael Bolton blaring on the speakers, and there's like 755 00:41:34,039 --> 00:41:38,920 a fucking some like clean cut like dude, like food forests, 756 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:41,599 Like that's what I fucking am. I go, I go deep. 757 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:48,400 You know, I really like, dude, a food forest, like integrative, holistic, biodynamic, dude, Like, God, 758 00:41:48,519 --> 00:41:49,440 shut the f off. 759 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 2: All of these things are what our native ecosystems are already. 760 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 3: We don't have to recreate that exactly exactly. 761 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,360 Speaker 1: You're trying to fix thing this. 762 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 3: Night, a permaculture food forest out in the national forest. 763 00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:06,159 Speaker 1: So that's what the perma culture lists I do. Rather 764 00:42:06,159 --> 00:42:10,159 than studying education, rather than studying, rather than studying the 765 00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,159 living machine that's that occurs in their region and was 766 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,039 built there over eons, they're trying to fucking fix something 767 00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:19,559 that's not broken to begin with, you know. So anyway, 768 00:42:19,599 --> 00:42:21,199 all right, well thanks for dad. I hopefully you guys 769 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,800 got some monte. That's all forty minutes. It's not too bad, 770 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,760 but uh, you know, I'm gonna get a bunch of 771 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,760 angry letters like fuck, you know, like perma culture, dude, 772 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,360 my food forest. Anyway, all right, well thanks, I appreciate 773 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,400 that everyone else have a grocery day. Go fuck yourself 774 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:36,559 by