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Daily bonuses are waiting, no 26 00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:58.479 purchase necessary, boid. We're prohibited by lock eighteen plus terms 27 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:00.439 and conditions APPLAK see website for details. 28 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:11.640 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 29 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:14.760 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 30 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:22.120 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 31 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:25.840 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 32 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:30.480 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 33 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:33.319 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 34 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:45.239 In the past thirty years alone, more than twenty eight 35 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:50.359 hundred innocent American prisoners, their combined sentences surpassing twenty five 36 00:01:50.439 --> 00:01:54.799 thousand years, have been exonerated and freed after being condemned 37 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:59.640 for crimes they did not commit. Terrifyingly, this number represents 38 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:03.200 only a fraction of the actual number of persons wrongfully 39 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:07.719 accused and convicted over the same period. Renowned criminal defense 40 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:11.520 and civil rights attorney David Rudolph has spent decades defending 41 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:15.199 the wrongfully accused in American injustice. He draws from his 42 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:18.719 years of experience in the American criminal legal system to 43 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:22.120 shed light on the misconduct that exists at all levels 44 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:25.840 of law enforcement and the tragic consequences that follow in 45 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:29.599 its wake. Tracing these themes through the lens of some 46 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:33.520 of his most important cases, including new details from the 47 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:38.479 Michael Peterson trial made famous in the Staircase. Rudolph takes 48 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:42.919 the reader inside crime scenes to examine forensic evidence left 49 00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:48.039 by perpetrators, revisits unsolved murders to detail how and why 50 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:53.000 the true culprits were never prosecuted, reveals how confirmation biased 51 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:58.000 leads police and prosecutors to employ tactics that make wrongful 52 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:02.719 arrests and prosecutions more likely, and exposes how poverty and 53 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:09.800 racism fundamentally distort the system. In American Injustice, Rudolph gives 54 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:11.599 a voice to those who have been the victim of 55 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:15.960 wrongful accusations, and shows in the starkest terms the human 56 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:21.400 impact of legal wrongdoing. Effortlessly blending, gripping true crime reporting, 57 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:26.240 and searing observations on civil rights in America, American Injustice 58 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:30.039 takes readers behind the scenes of a justice system in 59 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:34.840 desperate need of reform. The book that we're featuring this 60 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:40.360 evening is American Injustice, Inside Stories from the underbelly of 61 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:44.439 the criminal justice system. With my special guests, civil rights 62 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:48.319 attorney and author David S. Rudolph. Welcome to the program, 63 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:51.520 and thank you so much for this interview. David Rudolph. 64 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:53.639 Thank you, Dan, I really appreciate being on. 65 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:58.520 Thank you so much. Congratulations on this book, American Injustice. 66 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:00.080 By the way, I appreciate that. 67 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:03.919 Let's talk about a little bit about what this book 68 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:07.000 is really about, what you are exploring in this book. 69 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.319 But first let's talk about some of the changes that 70 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:13.680 you chronicle in the sixties and seventies. And you call 71 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:16.959 the war in court that made some of these rights 72 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:22.279 that we take for granted now their origins. Tell us 73 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:23.160 a little bit about that. 74 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:27.560 Yeah, you know, it's interesting, Dan, because I think all 75 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:31.040 of us, me included, over the course of my career, 76 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:33.800 sort of became in order to the fact that we 77 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.959 have these rights. So, you know, the right to counsel, 78 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:40.399 for one, you know, I always just assume that that 79 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:44.199 was something that was fundamental in our system. Simerainly, things 80 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:47.199 like you know, the right to be warned that you 81 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:52.000 don't have to make a statement, Fourth Amendment, protections against 82 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:56.600 unreasonable searches and seizures. All of these rights that I 83 00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:59.959 think we all sort of take for granted now didn't 84 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:04.839 not exist really prior to the nineteen forties or nineteen fifties, 85 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:08.240 and it was really the Warren Court. You know, Earl 86 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:12.560 Warren was a Republican. He was appointed by President Eisenhower, 87 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:17.160 and it was his court that included some giants that 88 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:22.839 set the course for civil rights and criminal againstess rates 89 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:27.519 in the United States. And all of those rights really 90 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:32.439 began to be formed in the nineteen sixties. And they're 91 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:36.160 really new rights in a sense. You know, they're only 92 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:39.839 fifty or sixty years old, and therefore they're you know, 93 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:45.240 perhaps fragile, vulnerable, and as we see with Roe versus Wade, 94 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:47.839 for example, the fact that we have those rights now 95 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:49.519 does not mean that they're there forever. 96 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.319 Tell us a little bit about your own decision when 97 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:56.439 you left law school. Tell us where you got that degree, 98 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:59.800 but tell us what your decision was and why after 99 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:01.000 law school. 100 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:04.720 Well, you know, I grew up in the sixties and seventies, 101 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.839 and so you know, when I was in college, Kent 102 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:11.079 State happened. You know, you had all the uproar about 103 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:15.519 the Vietnam War and then Kent State and students being 104 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:19.160 shot to death on their college campus protesting, and that 105 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:22.759 had a dramatic impact on me. And then, you know, 106 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:26.639 in the seventies I was in law school and Watergate happened, 107 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:30.600 and the Attorney General of the United States was prosecuted, 108 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:36.600 convicted of obstruction of justice. And so I think all 109 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:40.279 of those helped to form my skepticism, if you will, 110 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:44.399 of government. And so when it came time to graduate 111 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:49.480 from law school, I was interested in trying to help people. 112 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:55.079 I really wasn't interested in money. Particularly Money's never really 113 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:59.199 been a large motivator for me. And it was just 114 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:02.199 a natural evolution for me to want to go and 115 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:06.600 represent people and protect them against what I saw as 116 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:11.720 the sometime arbitrary exercise of power by the government. And 117 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:14.040 so that's what I did. I went to work for 118 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:17.360 the Legal Age Society in the South Bronx in the 119 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:20.319 Criminal Defense Division. I was on one hundred and sixty 120 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:24.519 first Street and the third Avenue in the Bronx, the 121 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:28.279 heart of Ford Apache and it was a great experience 122 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:32.240 for me. You know, Barry Sheck was my roommate, along 123 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:34.800 with about five other people. We were in a big office, 124 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:39.000 one phone that we passed around among us, and it 125 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:42.759 was a time of pushing back against, you know, the 126 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:47.680 forces that were sometimes abusing people in that community, and 127 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:49.639 that was very formative for me. 128 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:52.959 You write about the misconduct and abuses of power by 129 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:56.519 police and prosecutors, and that's what some of these stories 130 00:07:56.560 --> 00:08:00.399 definitely demonstrate and illustrate. You talk about a person name 131 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:04.319 Ray Finch, and you first met him in twenty and thirteen. 132 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:06.040 Tell us a little bit about this. 133 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:08.959 Meeting and why, and about a little more about the 134 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:10.439 Ray Finch debacle. 135 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:14.079 Well, you know, it's interesting because in some ways, and 136 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:17.600 this is sort of set forth in the book, Ray's 137 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:21.519 journey through life and my journey sort of paralleled in 138 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:24.439 it paralleled each other in some ways. You know, in 139 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.680 the sixties and seventies, Ray was growing up in a small, 140 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:32.320 rural county in North Carolina, while I was growing up 141 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:36.639 in a suburban community on Long Island in New York, 142 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:40.159 and so our paths were very different. And what I 143 00:08:40.279 --> 00:08:42.799 try to do during the book is sort of contrast 144 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:46.120 and compare where he was at certain points in his 145 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:49.519 life with where I was at the same time in 146 00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:53.120 my life. But then our path sort of came together 147 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:57.559 in twenty thirteen when Ray was being represented by the 148 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:00.919 Duke Innocence Project and they asked me to help them 149 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:05.000 conduct a hearing to show that he had been wrongfully convicted, 150 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.600 and I did that, and unfortunately we lost that hearing, 151 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:14.000 but the Duke Innocence Project persevered. They appealed that and 152 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:20.120 eventually in twenty eighteen they prevailed and the Fourth Circuit 153 00:09:20.120 --> 00:09:24.879 Court of Appeals overturned raised conviction freed him. The prosecutor 154 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:30.159 declined to pursue the case anymore, and then most recently, 155 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:33.440 the governor of North Carolina pardoned Ray. He gave him 156 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:37.759 a pardon of innocence. Ray ended up spending forty two 157 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.120 years of his life from the age of forty to 158 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:44.440 the age of eighty two, in prison for a murder 159 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.600 that he did not commit and for which I have 160 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:51.240 to say he was framed, and he was framed to 161 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:56.679 protect the law enforcement in Wilson County, North Carolina. He 162 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:00.799 fought for his innocence for the entire time. He got out, 163 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:05.279 you know, after forty two years, and then yesterday he 164 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:11.360 passed away and never really got to enjoy any portion 165 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:14.440 of his life after the age of forty. And it's 166 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.879 a sad, sad story, but it's also a very important 167 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:21.120 story for people to understand how these things happen. 168 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:26.720 You talk about prosecutors and judges showing remarkable hostility to 169 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:31.440 overturn turning new scientific evidence or proof of misconduct by 170 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:32.679 police or prosecutors. 171 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:33.600 Just tell us. 172 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:36.200 I mean, we could spend a whole hour on this, 173 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:39.639 But how on earth did he spend forty two years 174 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:40.240 in prison? 175 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:45.440 Well, first of all, when he first started challenging his conviction, 176 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:49.960 the judge who was ruling on his motions was the 177 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:54.000 prosecutor who had prosecuted him. Incredible, So you know here 178 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:57.600 he is, he's he's filing these motions for appropriate relief, 179 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:02.200 challenging his conviction, and they're being denied by the same 180 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:06.559 person who prosecuted him five or six years earlier. Then, 181 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:11.360 when the sheriff in that county was convicted for operating 182 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:15.559 his Sheriff's department as a racketeer, influenced and corrupt organization 183 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:20.240 by the federal government, he again asked for the State 184 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:25.200 bure of Investigation to come in and investigate and explain 185 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:28.639 that his conviction was the result of those people trying 186 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:32.759 to protect themselves because the real perpetrator knew about their corruption. 187 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:36.440 The state Bueer of Investigation, I think, in my view, 188 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:40.039 conducted a cover up, and so he remained in prison 189 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:43.440 after that, and then you know, of course it's very 190 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:46.480 difficult for anybody in prison to get a lawyer to 191 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.720 actually represent them, and when you're representing yourself, you're at 192 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:56.000 great disadvantage. Obviously. Finally, in two thousand and one, the 193 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:58.600 Duke Innocence Project took him on as one of their 194 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:02.559 first cases. But even then the State your investigation claimed 195 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:08.320 that they couldn't find evidence that was critical to his 196 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:12.960 being exonerated, and it took him another thirteen years to 197 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:16.600 Duke Innoson's Project, thirteen years to finally get the evidence 198 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:21.200 that was relied upon to overturn his conviction. During the 199 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:25.399 hearing that I helped him with, the judge after hearing 200 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:30.440 some really dramatic evidence, decided to recuse himself because he 201 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:35.200 had represented people during the course of that corruption inquiry. 202 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:39.759 That put everything on hold. A new judge was appointed, 203 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:44.759 he denied the petition, and it took us another eight 204 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:49.679 years essentially to get him out. So it's the nature 205 00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:53.240 of the system, and in a large part it's because 206 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:57.840 finality in our system of justice and the importance of 207 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:02.639 finality Trump's justice and truth, and I think that's a 208 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:05.879 real problem in our in our review of these cases. 209 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:10.600 You say that something that's well known, but only defense 210 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:16.159 attorneys discuss concerning the death of trial. So you say 211 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:19.639 it more eloquently, tell us what your idea about this? 212 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:22.960 Well, and it's not. It's not my idea, you know, 213 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:24.759 this is this is not this is not anything that 214 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:31.080 I've I've invented or labeled. And it's really it's known 215 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.639 among us defense lawyers as the trial penalty. And you know, 216 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:39.080 back in the day when I first started, there wasn't 217 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:43.200 much of a penalty for someone exercise or right to 218 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.200 trial as opposed to pleading guilty. I can remember when 219 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:49.639 I was starting out, uh, and I would tell people, listen, 220 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:53.200 you know, you can go to trial, but if you lose, 221 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:56.720 the judge is going to understand that you that you 222 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:00.879 you know, cause the exercise of resource is if you 223 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:04.600 are guilty and you plead guilty, the judge is likely 224 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:08.080 to take that into account when he senses you. But 225 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:11.799 that's the best you could say. And prosecutors back then, 226 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:16.799 at least in the federal system, took no position on sentencing. 227 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:21.159 Their view was sentencing is up to the court. They're 228 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:24.720 there to present the facts. Then the court decides on 229 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:29.440 sentenced over the last really thirty years, since nineteen eighty seven, 230 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:34.320 when Senator Kennedy introduced legislation to create the United States 231 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:38.639 Sentencing Commission with the hope that that would equalize sentencing 232 00:14:38.679 --> 00:14:42.000 across the United States. What it in fact did was 233 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:47.480 made the system draconian. And so now, first of all, 234 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:52.200 prosecutors are in complete control of the charging decisions, but 235 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.639 they're also in complete control of the sensing options. So 236 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:01.200 you know, if you are indicted for a certain crime 237 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:03.600 and you have to plead guilty to that or you're 238 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:09.440 convicted of that, the sentencing guidelines create enormous penalties. Whereas 239 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:13.039 if a prosecutor agrees, as a result of plea bargaining 240 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:16.879 or your cooperation with the government, to indict you for 241 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:20.519 a lesser charge, then that controls the penalty and it's 242 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.080 a much less onerous penalty. So what does that set up. 243 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:29.039 It sets up a circumstance where the prosecutors, who are 244 00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:33.120 your adversaries in this system, are in total control of 245 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:39.399 the mechanism of both charging and sentencing. The judges are 246 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.720 limited to a certain extent by the sentencing guidelines that 247 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:46.759 are in place. And so what the charge is what 248 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:51.480 you're indicted for. What you're convicted for, that has a 249 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:55.480 direct impact on your sentencing. And so what does that mean. 250 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.360 It means that when I talk to a client now, 251 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:01.679 I say to them, listen, they're offering you a plea 252 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:07.399 to a conspiracy, and the maximum on that conspiracy is 253 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:10.320 five years. That's the most you can do. But if 254 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:13.279 we go to trial and they're charging you with money 255 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:18.559 laundering and bank fraud and all kinds of other things, 256 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:22.440 now the penalties are up in the twenty thirty forty 257 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:28.120 fifty year range, right, So what is the average person 258 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:31.519 going to do, regardless of whether he's guilty or not. 259 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:35.000 He's not going to risk fifty years in federal prison 260 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:37.519 when he can walk out after three or four or five. 261 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.759 So it creates an enormous penalty. You can't go to 262 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:47.279 trial anymore without taking an enormous risk. And that means 263 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:51.559 that plea bargains become the currency of the system much 264 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:55.480 more than they ever were before. And so it's an 265 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:59.600 enormous problem for those of us who are trying to 266 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:04.119 be the advocates as opposed to greasing the wheels of 267 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:06.720 the federal criminal justice system. 268 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:12.519 People talk about and you discussed this about false confessions again, 269 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:18.119 how possibly anyone could agree and confess the crimes that 270 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:22.319 they didn't commit. You have some shocking examples of how 271 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.839 that can happen. Tell us about this phenomena. 272 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:28.839 Well, you know all of us, I think think in 273 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:34.599 our in our early days. Well, no, I would never 274 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.599 I would never confess to something I didn't do, or 275 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:40.920 I would never plead guilty to something I didn't do. Sure, 276 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:46.240 and I understand that that's an understandable feeling. But what 277 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:49.200 you have to do is put yourself in the place 278 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:52.960 of a particular person. And let me give you an example. 279 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:56.279 In the book, we discussed an example of a young 280 00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:59.640 man from Detroit who moved to a rural county in 281 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:04.519 North Carolina and was wrongfully accused of murder. And the 282 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:08.400 police put enormous pressure on his co defendants in the 283 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:12.960 way that I just described, to cooperate against him and 284 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.359 each other, sort of like the Central Park five case. 285 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:20.720 All of these people started making statements against each other. 286 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:25.160 This young man absolutely insisted on his innocence and he 287 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:29.559 refused to make any statements incriminating himself or anyone else, 288 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:34.039 despite the pressure. But now he's sitting at his other 289 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:37.640 All of his co defendants have pled They've all agreed 290 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:41.079 to testify against him. He's sitting in a jail in 291 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:43.880 a rural county, a black man in a white county 292 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:46.960 who is facing an all white jury. All of his 293 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:50.400 co defenders are going to testify against him. He's twenty 294 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:52.559 one years old. He has a two year old daughter 295 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:57.720 in Detroit. And they offer him a plea to manslaughter 296 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:02.119 with a maximum sentence of ten years. And he's told 297 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:04.640 that if he doesn't take that, they're going to tryumph 298 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:07.839 for first degree murder. He'll be facing the death penalty, 299 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:10.440 and he'll be facing it in a county with an 300 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:13.160 all white jury. And he is a young black guy 301 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:17.559 from Detroit in a rural North Carolina county. So you 302 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:21.000 know what does he does? He doesn't, you know, flip 303 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:24.119 on these other people. He says, I'm gonna plead guilty 304 00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:31.720 because he cannot risk the possibility of being sentenced to death. Right, 305 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:35.640 So is it surprising that he would enter a plea 306 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:39.680 of guilty even though he completely insisted on his innocence. No. 307 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:44.240 We flash forward ten years and in North Carolina there's 308 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:48.799 something called the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission that reviews 309 00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:54.319 cases like his on request, and they unanimously find three 310 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:58.759 judges of the North Carolina Superior Court unanimously fined despite 311 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:02.519 his plea of guilty, that he's absolutely innocent, and he 312 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:08.400 is exonerated. So there's no doubt that he pled guilty 313 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:12.680 to something he didn't do because of the pressures that 314 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:16.359 were exerted on him. I'll give you a less dramatic example. 315 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:21.200 Somebody is arrested for a misdemeanor and his bond is 316 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:24.640 set at one thousand dollars, which he can't make, and 317 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:28.440 he sits in jail for a week, a month, two months, 318 00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:32.759 three months. He loses his job, his apartment is at risk, 319 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:37.839 his custody of his children is at risk. He has 320 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:39.839 no control of when his case is going to be 321 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.880 called for trial. And his lawyer comes to and says, listen, 322 00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:46.839 the prosecutor is offering you a deal. If you plead guilty, 323 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:51.119 he'll agree to time served. In other words, plead guilty 324 00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:53.400 and it's a get out of jail free card. On 325 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.400 the other hand, if you want to insist on your trial, 326 00:20:57.079 --> 00:20:58.720 we don't know when we're going to get to that. 327 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:01.079 And you're going to sit in prison on one thousand 328 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:04.119 dollars bond or jail. So what does the person do 329 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:08.119 in that circumstance. You know, the choice is really not 330 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:12.079 a choice. And so those are the kinds of pressures 331 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:17.599 that are brought to bear on people every single day 332 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:18.359 in our system. 333 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:23.359 You talk about a confirmation bias, and we've heard about that, 334 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:26.319 but tell us how that works in the case that 335 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:30.400 you chronicle in your book with Ed Friedlan and the 336 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:31.559 murder of his wife. 337 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:35.200 Well, you know, and that's that's a good example, Dan, 338 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:40.519 because Ed was a prominent doctor. He wasn't a marginal citizen, 339 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:45.160 he wasn't a drug addict, he had no criminal record. 340 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.400 He was he was a good Jewish boy from New 341 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:51.839 York and moved to the South with his wife and 342 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:57.599 established a very successful medical practice. And he had an 343 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:02.160 absolute alibi on the day his wife was murdered. He 344 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:05.960 was at the hospital in Charlotte, North Carolina all day 345 00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:09.240 that day, right, you know, every moment of his time 346 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:15.640 was accounted for, and his wife was brutally, brutally murdered. 347 00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:20.119 And the police began their investigation by focusing on a 348 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:23.559 handyman who had worked at his house, who had a 349 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:29.119 criminal record, and who his wife's friend said, you know, 350 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:30.880 we think this is the guy who did it. He 351 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:35.559 was just acting suspiciously around the house, and the police 352 00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:38.480 had all kinds of evidence that this guy was in 353 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:43.640 and around the neighborhood that night acting suspiciously. So it 354 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:47.319 was really a pretty strong, circumstantial case against this fella. 355 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:51.319 And then the police found out that Ed Freeland had 356 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:56.880 had an affair with a nurse, right and everything changed. 357 00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:02.599 At that point. It was, aha, he's the guy. He 358 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:07.799 did this because of the affair. And then of course 359 00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:11.599 the police decided, you know, he really wasn't acting right 360 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:14.400 when we came upon the scene. You know, he hadn't 361 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:17.559 rushed over to the body the way we would expect 362 00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:20.640 a husband to rush over to the body, and he 363 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:25.880 wasn't hysterically crying the way we would expect a husband 364 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:29.240 to be crying. You know, they didn't bother to consider 365 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:31.519 whether he might be in shock. Sure, and that the 366 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:34.640 fact that people react differently the situations is sort of 367 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:38.640 well known. So all of a sudden, this narrative began 368 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:43.279 to form, and the investigation went on for four years, 369 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:47.559 and the district attorney kept saying no, we don't have 370 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:50.720 enough to indict him. You know, he has this alibi. 371 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:53.160 How are we going to indict him? And so the 372 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.039 police decided, well, we need to establish that his wife 373 00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:00.640 died before he left for the hospital. So they got 374 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:06.000 a hold of a well known pathologist who agreed out 375 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:09.039 of state, you know, first time ever that they went 376 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:13.839 outside of North Carolina to a New York pathologist medical examiner, 377 00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:16.319 and got this fellow to say that in his opinion, 378 00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:19.279 that time of death was prior to eight am in 379 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:22.720 the morning, and based on that they got an indictment. 380 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:26.480 I represented ed and I was fortunate enough to be 381 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:34.000 able to find the expert who undermined this doctor's opinion, 382 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:38.519 this medical examiner's opinion. But more importantly, the police had 383 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:43.000 taped an interview with this expert and in that tape 384 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:47.319 they clearly sort of fed him facts and he said, 385 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.680 I don't really think I can give you what you need. 386 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:53.440 This was before he agreed to help them, And they 387 00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:57.720 had turned that tape over in a dui case because 388 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:01.920 they were giving the public defender the dui call ins. 389 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:06.039 And what they didn't realize what they hadn't erased the 390 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:10.400 prior discussion and so I got a hold of that tape. 391 00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:14.400 The public defender realized what it was, called me, gave 392 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:18.200 me the tape, and so now I could totally undermine 393 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:23.559 that medical examiner's testimony. And then we were able to get, 394 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:27.119 because the judge ordered it, all of the evidence that 395 00:25:27.160 --> 00:25:32.279 the police had hidden from the prosecutor about this handyman 396 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:35.960 that the prosecutor had never heard of. And at that point, 397 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:39.799 after four years of being under suspicion and a year 398 00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:44.599 of being under indictment, the charges were dismissed. So that's 399 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:50.640 the really good example of how tunnel vision, how confirmation bias, 400 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:54.319 can take the police away from where they should have 401 00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:58.839