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<v Speaker 1>Hey, everyone, Welcome to the episode four hundred and eleven of

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<v Speaker 1>The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here with tonight's guest

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<v Speaker 1>Alma Katsu. She served as a analyst at NSA and CIA.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm also delving into the technical side as well, some

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<v Speaker 1>of the technological development work that they do. And she

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<v Speaker 1>is the author of ten books, including some spy novels,

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<v Speaker 1>the bigger one being Black Vault, which is being made

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<v Speaker 1>into a television show, and an upcoming novel about Havana syndrome.

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<v Speaker 1>So a thank you for joining us on the show tonight.

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<v Speaker 1>Your name has been circulating around for a while. I

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<v Speaker 1>think I've had you on our list for a while. Actually,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm glad this is finally happening.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thanks for having me here. I'm really looking forward

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<v Speaker 2>to this. I know it's kind of confusing because I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not really known for my spies stories, but then when

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<v Speaker 2>people find out my background, they're like really surprised. That's

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<v Speaker 2>not all I write.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think it's always enjoyable

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<v Speaker 1>when somebody kind of brings their personal experience into the novel,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever kind of novel. You know, if you were a

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<v Speaker 1>police officer or a CIA officer or whatever the case

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<v Speaker 1>may be, and kind of lend that sort of like

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<v Speaker 1>that insider baseball is what I think, kind of like,

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<v Speaker 1>at least for me, kind of makes the book what

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<v Speaker 1>it is.

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<v Speaker 2>It was really interesting. I never thought that I would

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<v Speaker 2>actually write a spy novel. I tried early on when

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<v Speaker 2>I was you know, my very first book was It

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<v Speaker 2>came out in twenty eleven, and it took me ten

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<v Speaker 2>years to write that book. And while I was writing it,

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<v Speaker 2>I would jump in and try to write, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like a spy thriller, and I was terrible at it.

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<v Speaker 2>So I just figured I'd never write one. And then

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<v Speaker 2>after the first three books came out and I was

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<v Speaker 2>retiring from NSSA actually it was twenty seventeen, and my

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<v Speaker 2>editor at Putnam and I'd done a couple books with her,

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<v Speaker 2>and she said, you know, I know you've always wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to write a spy novel. Why don't you get to try?

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<v Speaker 2>Because she knew I wanted to write one about the

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<v Speaker 2>female experience in the spy business and a CIA. So

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I was really lucky. I was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>gifted that experience and I knew what I was going

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<v Speaker 2>to write about because when I was there, there was

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<v Speaker 2>a really horrible thing that happened that if I told you,

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<v Speaker 2>you would recognize it because it was in the news

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<v Speaker 2>for years, but it was never publicly associated with CIA.

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<v Speaker 2>And I always knew i'd write a story and incorporate

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<v Speaker 2>a version of what happened there in it, so I

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<v Speaker 2>got the chance to do it. But you know, it

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<v Speaker 2>was really an eye opener. I don't know what your

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<v Speaker 2>experience has been, but you know, you go into this thinking,

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<v Speaker 2>just like you said, I'm going to tell I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to be a truth teller. I'm going to give the

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<v Speaker 2>inside baseball, you know, and it feels like it's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be cathartic for you. And then once you get

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<v Speaker 2>into it, you realize that that's not necessarily what the

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<v Speaker 2>public wants. You know, they're kind of conditioned more for

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Jason Bohn and Jack Reacher and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>James Bond, and that's not what the job is really like.

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<v Speaker 2>And so as a writer, you're sort of torn between

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<v Speaker 2>these two things. You you want to be true to

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<v Speaker 2>your to the profession and the wonderful people that you

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<v Speaker 2>work with, who you want to honor, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>not make them into characters or you know that sort

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<v Speaker 2>of thing. But you're also an entertainer and you have

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<v Speaker 2>this obligation to try to entertain your readers. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>that's made it not what I thought it would be in.

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<v Speaker 1>My mind, you know, when when I'm writing like mostly

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<v Speaker 1>like special ops stuff, I kind of picture that this

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<v Speaker 1>guy is having like such a singular career, like every

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<v Speaker 1>amazing thing that could possibly happen is happening to this

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<v Speaker 1>one person. It's like, no one has a career like that,

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<v Speaker 1>like just to be clear, like nobody has a like

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<v Speaker 1>something out of a video game. So yeah, it becomes

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<v Speaker 1>like this you know, combination of of all these other

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<v Speaker 1>experiences packed into like one protagonist.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but you know, in your in your business though

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<v Speaker 2>at least is full of action in real life for

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<v Speaker 2>most even case officers, right, it's not like they're running

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<v Speaker 2>down the streets waving again for people, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>which is unfortunately kind of the expectation of a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the public, especially if they don't really read spy novels.

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<v Speaker 2>If really they're they're understanding of the profession is based

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<v Speaker 2>on movies and TV shows, you know, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>visual medium. There's certainly a lot of great spy novels

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<v Speaker 2>that are more realistic. You know, I'm thinking jehan Lecery

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, Charles Cummings and those kind of guys.

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<v Speaker 2>But but you know, it's really hard, you know, even

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<v Speaker 2>Mheron for instance. You know, I got to be on

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<v Speaker 2>a panel with Mchern and I asked him, I said,

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<v Speaker 2>how did you know that there actually are offices like

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<v Speaker 2>the slow Horses? And he looked at me and he said,

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't, but there are. And I accidentally got to

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<v Speaker 2>the boss of one of them once. When I was

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<v Speaker 2>at NSA. One of my last jobs was I was

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<v Speaker 2>made the director of one of the research labs. And

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<v Speaker 2>I only got the job because the person who had

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<v Speaker 2>been the director for six years was horrible and had

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<v Speaker 2>run it into the ground. And what they had done

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<v Speaker 2>was they put all these deadwood, all the people they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't want to deal with in the S and T

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<v Speaker 2>back in NSA. They sent them down to my lab

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<v Speaker 2>twenty miles away so they wouldn't have to deal with them.

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<v Speaker 2>So I just felt like Jackson Lamb. I just had

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<v Speaker 2>this team of you know, useless, argumentative, you know people. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>I could not get the work out of them that

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<v Speaker 2>Jackson Lamb gets out of his people.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, no disrespect at all to anybody, any

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<v Speaker 1>of the case officers out there, but like, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>not just like an aberration, but I think it's like

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<v Speaker 1>almost intentional. A lot of these guys look like insurance

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<v Speaker 1>claims adjusters. They don't look they don't look like uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, James Bond. And they shouldn't, right, because they

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<v Speaker 1>got to blend in in different places, you know, they

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<v Speaker 1>shouldn't look like a CrossFit athlete, right, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Mean, that's what what's his name? Colby said? Right, the

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<v Speaker 2>little gray man, the man that can just blend into

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<v Speaker 2>the background. And that's the most successful case officers. But

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<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you a funny thing. On the analytics side,

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<v Speaker 2>you do get some very attractive people.

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<v Speaker 1>There was Yeah, we noticed, Alma, thank you not.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of the people I worked with were like, one

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<v Speaker 2>of them looked just like Gwyneth Paltrow. I am not kidding.

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<v Speaker 2>And we were thinking this particular office chief kind of

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<v Speaker 2>went out of his way to hire really leggy, attractive blondes.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, well, well that's well, we'll get into that

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<v Speaker 1>when we start talking about the female experience of the

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<v Speaker 1>Cia and some of the dubious characters that you cross

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<v Speaker 1>paths with. But well, let's uh, before we get too

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<v Speaker 1>deep into the into the I want to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>start at the beginning with you and ask a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit about kind of your upbringing and how that took

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<v Speaker 1>you towards governmental service. You know, what was your first

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<v Speaker 1>stop at the NSSA or did you have something in

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<v Speaker 1>between there? And you just walk us through it.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, when I started out, when I was a kid,

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to be a writer. I mean, I think,

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<v Speaker 2>like with most writers, I was a little introvert, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>was more comfortable with a book than with people, and

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<v Speaker 2>pretty much spent all my time in the library, so

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<v Speaker 2>much so that the librarians gave me a job as

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<v Speaker 2>a page when I was fifteen, so kind, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>And so I thought I would be a writer. And

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<v Speaker 2>I actually started out as a reporter while I was

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<v Speaker 2>still in high school and while I was in college.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, back then, this was pre internet years.

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<v Speaker 2>Most people didn't know any you know, like a novelist.

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<v Speaker 2>I had no idea how you would become a novelist.

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<v Speaker 2>The only thing I could see was newspaper work where

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<v Speaker 2>people were really making a living and writing. So I

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<v Speaker 2>sort of figured i'd go in the newspaper work. But then,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the job market crashed. This was in the

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<v Speaker 2>late seventies early eighties, and my dad, who'd been in

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<v Speaker 2>the military, you know, he was really after me to

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<v Speaker 2>get a government job, that security, that sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>And so just just on a whim, I applied to NSA.

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<v Speaker 2>My sister, who was a wild child, she went to

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<v Speaker 2>Woodstock and she hitch hyped across the country during the

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<v Speaker 2>Summer of Love. Right. She told me all these crazy

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<v Speaker 2>stories she'd heard about the place that it was. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it just made us sound insane, and so I thought, well,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, even the application process was an experience, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>go down to the corner, knock three times kind of thing. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>So I applied, and I never thought I would get

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<v Speaker 2>a job with them, and I never thought I would go,

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<v Speaker 2>but they offered me a job, and at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>my job where I was working, which had only been

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<v Speaker 2>for about a year, I was working at a college,

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<v Speaker 2>was looking pretty shaky. So I went ahead and took

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<v Speaker 2>the job. And when I went I told them, look,

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<v Speaker 2>I have no interest in national security. You know, this

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<v Speaker 2>is not my thing. I'm just coming here for the experience.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll stay a few years and I'm going to leave.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what I told them, and they were like, sure, sure,

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<v Speaker 2>come on down, you know, reel me in. And I stayed.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I had a thirty five year career and

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<v Speaker 2>then some so I stayed because, as you know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>such a singular profession and you get opportunities. I got

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<v Speaker 2>opportunities that if I had stayed in Boston and followed

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<v Speaker 2>what I thought was my you know, path, I never

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<v Speaker 2>would have gotten. And when we talk about the career

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit more, you'll see so, you know, while

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<v Speaker 2>it wasn't perfect, and there were a lot of things that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, were disappointments. Everyone has disappointments in their career,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. I have to say it made me into

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<v Speaker 2>a person, you know, I never never dreamed I would be.

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<v Speaker 2>And that includes the science and technology part because when

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<v Speaker 2>I was a little kid growing up. Even though I

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<v Speaker 2>grew up in a town that was home to one

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<v Speaker 2>of the first computer companies, so all of us were

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<v Speaker 2>exposed to computers way before most people were, they still

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<v Speaker 2>kind of treated girls like, you don't know math, and

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<v Speaker 2>you're not going to be good at science. So I

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<v Speaker 2>thought I wasn't good at math and science, And it

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't until I got to NSA and they know how

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<v Speaker 2>to train you from what you need to know, I

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<v Speaker 2>found out that I was actually good at it. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it really opened up a lot of doors

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<v Speaker 2>for me.

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<v Speaker 1>What was the position they hired you for?

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<v Speaker 2>So I got hired into what was then their intern program,

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<v Speaker 2>which was a little bit like the PMI program, but

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<v Speaker 2>I was hired as what they called a reporter, which

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<v Speaker 2>is a kind of analyst at NSA. I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>changed now, But when I started, and this was decades ago,

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<v Speaker 2>reporting and I mean, as I should say, was sort

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<v Speaker 2>of a hybrid. It was you were working with linguists,

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<v Speaker 2>but a lot of times the linguists were not so

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<v Speaker 2>good at stepping away from the content of what they

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<v Speaker 2>were translating and really understanding the so out of it.

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<v Speaker 2>So a lot of times a reporter, someone who was

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<v Speaker 2>better at writing, would then step in and kind of

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<v Speaker 2>take it to the final you know, take it to

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<v Speaker 2>a finished product. That changed for me, of course when

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<v Speaker 2>I went to CIA. They have a very different view

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<v Speaker 2>on what an analyst is and when an analyst would

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<v Speaker 2>be able to produce. So but that's how I started out.

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<v Speaker 2>I started out as a reporter, did that for about

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<v Speaker 2>I can't remember how long, fifteen years or so, made

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<v Speaker 2>it all the way up to a sigate national intelligence

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<v Speaker 2>officer in my field, so very fulfilling job. That got

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<v Speaker 2>to look kind of my and IO. So when you're

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<v Speaker 2>a national intelligence officer, generally that's associated with CIA, the NICK,

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<v Speaker 2>the National Intelligence Council, but other intelligence agencies often have

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<v Speaker 2>their equivalent to sort of lead in that particular area,

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<v Speaker 2>and for me it was multilateral affairs. I ended up

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<v Speaker 2>becoming a specialist in like Phase four operations and operations

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<v Speaker 2>other than combat. In the nineties, there was a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of that going on, especially genocides and atrocities. That's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of what I'm famous for. Not the thing you want

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<v Speaker 2>to be famous for, but because my NIO, who was

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<v Speaker 2>wonderful David Gordon, brilliant man, but he came from outside

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<v Speaker 2>the intelligence community, so he didn't really understand how intelligence

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<v Speaker 2>supported his work. So I ended up working very closely

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<v Speaker 2>with him, and yeah, it was an amazing time. But

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<v Speaker 2>it all ended when nine to eleven happened, and I

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<v Speaker 2>ended up going down to do two policy years to

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<v Speaker 2>try to support the Bush administration in their objectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's take a second to talk about those first

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen years at NSA. I think the people that listen

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<v Speaker 1>to this podcast generally understand what NSA does that they're

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<v Speaker 1>sort of the big ears listening to the interceptions and

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<v Speaker 1>everything else. But it sounds like you got there probably

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<v Speaker 1>in the nineteen eighties and worked there into the nineteen nineties.

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<v Speaker 1>What was it like at that time? I mean technology

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<v Speaker 1>was kind of analog transitioning to digital. What was it

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<v Speaker 1>like working at NSA at that time frame and what

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<v Speaker 1>were the kind of technological constraints you know?

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<v Speaker 2>So it is interesting. I came to NSA like a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of my peers, you know, we came from all

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<v Speaker 2>over the country. I had come from a very sort

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<v Speaker 2>of protected, unworldly family, right, so getting there just trying

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<v Speaker 2>to sort of get my feet on the ground was

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<v Speaker 2>about all I could wrap my head around and trying

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<v Speaker 2>to learn the job because it was so different from

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<v Speaker 2>anything i'd been exposed to. As you can imagine, because

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<v Speaker 2>you're not only having to say, learn a target, you're

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00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:13.159
<v Speaker 2>also having to absorb the culture. When you work in intelligence,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to learn a lot of stuff like how

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<v Speaker 2>to handle classification. There's just all these components that are

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<v Speaker 2>more than what your average job is asking of you.

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<v Speaker 2>The technology was incredibly analog. We did not even have computers.

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<v Speaker 2>There was one computer, a Delta Data at the end

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<v Speaker 2>of the aisle, and you kind of sorted through your

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<v Speaker 2>papers and looked at things and trying to draw your

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<v Speaker 2>little confute conclusions, and then you would run down to

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<v Speaker 2>the computer, you know, to try to access the data.

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<v Speaker 2>It was just insane when I look back on it.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of analysts did their work on index cards,

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<v Speaker 2>kept notes on everything. Right, if you try to tell

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<v Speaker 2>the kids about it today, they won't be right. But

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<v Speaker 2>I was there. I was starting to get in the

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<v Speaker 2>upper echelons by the time the transition what they called

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<v Speaker 2>the transition at NSA, and that was the transition, the

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<v Speaker 2>world's transition from analog to digital, and that was huge.

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<v Speaker 2>That was so eye opening and it really made an

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<v Speaker 2>impression on me for the rest of my career. So

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<v Speaker 2>later when I went into technology forecasting, I drew a

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<v Speaker 2>lot on that experience, what the agency went through to

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you hear the expression you're building the plane

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<v Speaker 2>as you're flying it. They were building the plane as

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<v Speaker 2>because we knew if we did not change in five years,

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<v Speaker 2>we were going to go blind. We would not be

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<v Speaker 2>the communications we're going to move on. How you process them,

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<v Speaker 2>how you make sense of them, everything is completely different

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<v Speaker 2>from analog, and so it was a huge investment. They

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<v Speaker 2>had to stop working on certain targets that were bringing

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<v Speaker 2>that were our bread butter that you know, we're answering

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<v Speaker 2>policy makers needs today. But the management had to make

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<v Speaker 2>this very difficult and very brave decision to do that

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<v Speaker 2>and put up with a lot of flack. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>you can imagine people were so upset, right this is

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<v Speaker 2>the it's rights bullism. This is their job. What are

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<v Speaker 2>they going to do if they can't make that transition,

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<v Speaker 2>if they can't understand how to deal with this new technology,

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<v Speaker 2>especially as analysts. It was frightening. And we'll talk about

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<v Speaker 2>that more because we were going through that right now.

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<v Speaker 2>The intelligence community continues to go through a second digital

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<v Speaker 2>age right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Bye.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, so that was very interesting. I mentioned to

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00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:22.640
<v Speaker 2>you before the show, and I guess I need to

335
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:26.079
<v Speaker 2>shove this in there somewhere. Early on in my analytic career,

336
00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:27.720
<v Speaker 2>I got to be on the team that was the

337
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<v Speaker 2>first hackers at NSA.

338
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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>That was well crazy because the technology then is not

340
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<v Speaker 2>the technology now. So we were chasing entities around the

341
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<v Speaker 2>Internet in a method that does not exist now. And

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<v Speaker 2>the funniest thing, well, the weirdest thing is I'm still

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<v Speaker 2>friends with one of the you know, I was one

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<v Speaker 2>of the analysts. So we supported the programmers trying to

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<v Speaker 2>find it was entirely a research endeavor, right, it was

346
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<v Speaker 2>not operational We were the team that had to prove

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<v Speaker 2>that you could do this. We had to figure out

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<v Speaker 2>how to do the back end processing, all that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of stuff. So we had programmers who were just I

350
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<v Speaker 2>mean excellent hackers, right. They were the best of the best, really,

351
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<v Speaker 2>these kids. And then they had a team of reporters

352
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<v Speaker 2>like me, analysts who supported them and we'd shift through

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of data and look for patterns and say, okay,

354
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<v Speaker 2>I think there's something here, let's reverse engineer or whatever.

355
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<v Speaker 2>So you know, got to sit in the room with

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<v Speaker 2>them while they were doing the very first intrusions and

357
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<v Speaker 2>things like that. It was it was something, I mean,

358
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<v Speaker 2>made a big impression on me, so much so that

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<v Speaker 2>years later, for now, I was asked to write what

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<v Speaker 2>we call design fiction for CIA. It's fiction. It's like

361
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<v Speaker 2>science fiction, right, but it shows up for particular outcomeing

362
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<v Speaker 2>or objective and in it I had to do something

363
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<v Speaker 2>that was very much akin to hacking. But I haven't

364
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<v Speaker 2>done it in twenty years, so I'm like, I'll just

365
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<v Speaker 2>write what I think might be going on. And I

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<v Speaker 2>got a friend of mine who had been one of

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<v Speaker 2>the programmers, and he stayed in the career field. He

368
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<v Speaker 2>stayed in computer security information operations his whole career, and

369
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<v Speaker 2>I asked him to read it before I handed it

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<v Speaker 2>in to see IA, and he said, yep, that's pretty

371
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<v Speaker 2>much what we're still doing. He made a couple suggestions,

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<v Speaker 2>so that was pretty eye opening.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, so this is again the kids may

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<v Speaker 1>not understand what we're talking about, but this was the

375
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<v Speaker 1>days of dial up modems. The Internet was in a

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<v Speaker 1>nascent sort of form, to say the least. It wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>exactly what people see on the Internet today. What was

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<v Speaker 1>kind of I understand this was sort of a proof

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<v Speaker 1>of concept at the time, but sort of what was

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<v Speaker 1>going on in NSA's had at this time, like because

381
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<v Speaker 1>mostly it was just like universities really that were on

382
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<v Speaker 1>the internet. Was it sort of like trying to project forward,

383
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<v Speaker 1>like governmental institutions are going to be on this platform eventually,

384
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<v Speaker 1>so we need to be there.

385
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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean I was just a little peon on

386
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:21.880
<v Speaker 2>the team they you know, I didn't hear what was

387
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:24.920
<v Speaker 2>happening at the higher levels, the direction that was being

388
00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:27.559
<v Speaker 2>given to our management. And it was a very small

389
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:32.599
<v Speaker 2>office and this was quite a few years before the transformation,

390
00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:36.279
<v Speaker 2>so I think at that point there were probably knowing

391
00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:41.039
<v Speaker 2>what I know now for technology forecasting. There was probably

392
00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:44.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of naysayers who were like, this is never

393
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.079
<v Speaker 2>going to change, You're wasting our time, blah blah blah.

394
00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:51.519
<v Speaker 2>What you were saying is so true. It was so

395
00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:56.559
<v Speaker 2>unlike the Internet today. For instance, back then you got

396
00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:59.640
<v Speaker 2>what was known as a DNI, a dial number indicator.

397
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.640
<v Speaker 2>It was like a telephone number that you used on

398
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<v Speaker 2>the internet, so you had to know the person's telephone number.

399
00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:10.200
<v Speaker 2>There was no you know it was. It was just

400
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:13.680
<v Speaker 2>so completely different. Yeah, and you could I can understand

401
00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:15.160
<v Speaker 2>why it didn't take off.

402
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Oh, so at the time, the NSA was kind

403
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:22.559
<v Speaker 1>of like, we don't really know what to do with this, I.

404
00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.880
<v Speaker 2>Would say, because when I started out, I was an

405
00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:28.480
<v Speaker 2>intern for three years and then I was pulled into

406
00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:33.559
<v Speaker 2>an office that ended up being the beginning of something

407
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:35.799
<v Speaker 2>that ended up being really big for an essay, and

408
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:39.240
<v Speaker 2>it was their interface really with the commercial sector in

409
00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:44.119
<v Speaker 2>technologies of interest, and so I was exposed. I was

410
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.759
<v Speaker 2>actually on standards committees for I'm actually one of the

411
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:52.319
<v Speaker 2>drafters of an old American national standard for encryption for

412
00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:58.440
<v Speaker 2>key encryption. I'm sure it's been superseded many times by now,

413
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:01.759
<v Speaker 2>But so I was exposed to that world, and then

414
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<v Speaker 2>I had the opportunity to go work on this in

415
00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:08.920
<v Speaker 2>this hacking cell, just because I'd already had that sort

416
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:15.039
<v Speaker 2>of technical exposure. So I'm sure there were people who

417
00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:19.920
<v Speaker 2>were skeptical of it. That's just the nature of emerging

418
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:21.839
<v Speaker 2>technologies and it's a little.

419
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:26.559
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, anything new, there's always going to be some skepticism.

420
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's always a town of naysayers. I'd say, like

421
00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:34.480
<v Speaker 2>eighty twenty eighty percent are people who just think things

422
00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:37.319
<v Speaker 2>are going to continue the way they are. And you know,

423
00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:40.839
<v Speaker 2>so you know, I really kind of made my name

424
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:44.559
<v Speaker 2>in this area with social media. I was at CIA

425
00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:49.039
<v Speaker 2>at the time, and the center they have that is

426
00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:52.880
<v Speaker 2>the lead on open source was supposed to be taking

427
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:56.680
<v Speaker 2>the lead and developing an approach to social media. But

428
00:23:56.720 --> 00:23:58.480
<v Speaker 2>the question at the time, I mean this was two

429
00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:02.400
<v Speaker 2>thousand and seven. You know, none of the platforms are

430
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:06.079
<v Speaker 2>anywhere near what they are today, and you know, people

431
00:24:06.119 --> 00:24:08.720
<v Speaker 2>were just saying, this is for kids, this is not

432
00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:13.279
<v Speaker 2>gonna this is not a serious thing, and this is

433
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:15.880
<v Speaker 2>and they needed somebody who had a technical background because

434
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:17.839
<v Speaker 2>they were kind of looking at and then what I

435
00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:19.640
<v Speaker 2>call the hunt and Peck method. You know, they were

436
00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:21.880
<v Speaker 2>just looking, but they had no plan, like how you

437
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:27.039
<v Speaker 2>systematically figure out what's out there? And then there are

438
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:29.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of associated intelligence questions with that, like how

439
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:32.119
<v Speaker 2>do we know this person is who they say they are?

440
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:35.079
<v Speaker 2>You know, how do we know when information is authentic?

441
00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:37.839
<v Speaker 2>Just all of these sort of validation issues that as

442
00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:40.440
<v Speaker 2>an analyst you have to be able to answer. So

443
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:44.039
<v Speaker 2>they hired me to be the first senior analysts for

444
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:47.119
<v Speaker 2>social media and I spent three years in that program

445
00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:50.519
<v Speaker 2>and I approached it like I would as an NIO, right.

446
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:55.079
<v Speaker 2>I reached out to like the best researchers in the country,

447
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:59.839
<v Speaker 2>you know, working with them to try to develop methodologies.

448
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:05.440
<v Speaker 2>I took nssa's approach, where you have systematic sort of

449
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:10.039
<v Speaker 2>a systematic look at the environment, the communications environment. NSA

450
00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:12.799
<v Speaker 2>does it through frequencies. We had to figure out a

451
00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:17.279
<v Speaker 2>way to replicate that in an environment without frequencies, which

452
00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:20.279
<v Speaker 2>we made some headway towards. So anyway, a fair amount

453
00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:22.119
<v Speaker 2>of people ended up knowing me for that work, and

454
00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:24.519
<v Speaker 2>when I went to RAND, it was based on that work.

455
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:26.960
<v Speaker 2>But ooh, I kind of lost the track.

456
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.359
<v Speaker 1>What was the Yeah, you jumped right onto the social

457
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.200
<v Speaker 1>media thing. But I mean, we can dwell on that

458
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:38.319
<v Speaker 1>for a minute. So two thousand and seven. Facebook came

459
00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:42.240
<v Speaker 1>around two thousand and four, I believe, and my Space

460
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:46.079
<v Speaker 1>was around back in those days. Also, yeah, a.

461
00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:51.359
<v Speaker 2>Few years before Facebook took up Twitter. I can't remember

462
00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:54.640
<v Speaker 2>the exact year. Two thousand and six was Miracle on

463
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:58.400
<v Speaker 2>the Hudson, which was you know, when Sully landed the plane,

464
00:25:58.759 --> 00:26:02.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, outside of New York, and it was the

465
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:07.400
<v Speaker 2>first time that we had seen the news break on

466
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Twitter faster than we were seeing it break in the

467
00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:12.000
<v Speaker 2>news media, you know. So and.

468
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.319
<v Speaker 1>How did you already see how did you already seen

469
00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:19.200
<v Speaker 1>that phenomena take place once already in your career with

470
00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:23.720
<v Speaker 1>the advent of satellite live news from CNN and so

471
00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:25.960
<v Speaker 1>on starting to come online.

472
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:32.839
<v Speaker 2>Well, so that I wasn't in a technical position during

473
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:37.359
<v Speaker 2>that time. I was working you know, operations other than combat,

474
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:39.680
<v Speaker 2>and so I was running a lot of war rooms,

475
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:44.160
<v Speaker 2>and we were having to deal with that because you'd

476
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:48.599
<v Speaker 2>have your policy makers, you know, listening to CNN, and

477
00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:51.440
<v Speaker 2>you're trying to do your keep on top of the

478
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:54.599
<v Speaker 2>intelligence and at the same time you've got to constantly

479
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:58.200
<v Speaker 2>bounce it against this never ending stream of open source

480
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:04.119
<v Speaker 2>information to try to, you know, not cross wires. If

481
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:07.119
<v Speaker 2>you have something that is contradicting what the media says,

482
00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:09.200
<v Speaker 2>you've got to deal with that. So I had to

483
00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:13.279
<v Speaker 2>deal with it more on that in that regard, rather

484
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:19.440
<v Speaker 2>than trying to figure out its role was. When I

485
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:22.599
<v Speaker 2>took over as the senior analyst, it really was the

486
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:25.920
<v Speaker 2>question that was posed to me is is there intelligence

487
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:29.720
<v Speaker 2>value in social media? So that's what we had to answer,

488
00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:32.039
<v Speaker 2>and to do that, we had to have a good

489
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:37.039
<v Speaker 2>sense of what was out there, who's talking, you know,

490
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:40.559
<v Speaker 2>what are the conversations. I could go on for hours

491
00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:44.759
<v Speaker 2>about how this is done. But it's what folks who

492
00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:47.200
<v Speaker 2>aren't exposed to but don't understand, is it's all that

493
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:53.079
<v Speaker 2>measurement is done with highly sophisticated physics models. It's highly technical.

494
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.079
<v Speaker 2>It's not just oh I looked at Twitter today and

495
00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:58.559
<v Speaker 2>I saw these things, or these are the top ten

496
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:04.079
<v Speaker 2>trending topics on whatever. You know, when you're answering the president,

497
00:28:05.079 --> 00:28:08.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, you have a very high bar. You really

498
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:10.400
<v Speaker 2>need to know what you're talking about, and in order

499
00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:13.720
<v Speaker 2>to do that, you have to run all these complex

500
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:17.359
<v Speaker 2>analytics so that you understand, you can validate what you're

501
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.680
<v Speaker 2>seeing out there on social media, which is pretty much

502
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:22.160
<v Speaker 2>an invisible platform to most people.

503
00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:27.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I mean, well, nowadays our policy makers are

504
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:30.480
<v Speaker 1>definitely taking cues off of Twitter on a daily basis,

505
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:36.160
<v Speaker 1>for better or worse. But what was the question I

506
00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:41.759
<v Speaker 1>wanted to ask? Oh, I'm surprised that the intelligence community

507
00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:47.559
<v Speaker 1>didn't jump on social media sooner for targeting, that all

508
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:50.000
<v Speaker 1>of these people, just the very nature that somebody is

509
00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:54.759
<v Speaker 1>uploading their profile onto a social media platform must be

510
00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:57.000
<v Speaker 1>a bonanza for targeters.

511
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:01.480
<v Speaker 2>I think targeting was probably one of the first fields

512
00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:07.039
<v Speaker 2>that actually did take advantage of social media the early years,

513
00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:10.079
<v Speaker 2>though for me at least, it was just so much

514
00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:15.200
<v Speaker 2>pushback against you know, the rank and file. And I'll

515
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:18.240
<v Speaker 2>just talk about this one organization, for instance, that was

516
00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:20.079
<v Speaker 2>supposed to have the lead, and that was the Open

517
00:29:20.119 --> 00:29:21.960
<v Speaker 2>Source Center. I don't think it's called the Open Source

518
00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:24.160
<v Speaker 2>Center anymore. It might be called the Open Source Enterprise.

519
00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:28.920
<v Speaker 2>But you know, there were just like it at CIA

520
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:32.160
<v Speaker 2>in the DA. You know, you have all these offices

521
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:35.920
<v Speaker 2>that have a regional focus or they have a topical focus,

522
00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:40.039
<v Speaker 2>right the Office of Transnational Issues or counter Terrorism or

523
00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:43.880
<v Speaker 2>the Office of Russia, the Office of South America and

524
00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:47.920
<v Speaker 2>those people at the Open Source Center. It was really

525
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:52.960
<v Speaker 2>run like a wire service. They were responsible for understanding

526
00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:57.119
<v Speaker 2>what the foreign media was talking about in their area, right,

527
00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:59.839
<v Speaker 2>so it was very language based. There was a lot

528
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:04.359
<v Speaker 2>of translation of you know, traditional media. And what they

529
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:07.240
<v Speaker 2>didn't appreciate at the time is that this was all

530
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:10.920
<v Speaker 2>going to be challenged and eventually done away with. That

531
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:13.680
<v Speaker 2>the digital revolution was going to come and it was

532
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:17.240
<v Speaker 2>going to make all those sources that were so important

533
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:21.839
<v Speaker 2>to them less meaningful in some cases meaningless. And so

534
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:25.240
<v Speaker 2>they fought us tooth and nail for the three every

535
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:28.359
<v Speaker 2>day in three years. And I was there. It was

536
00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:32.359
<v Speaker 2>just a battle, and the management did not want to

537
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:35.720
<v Speaker 2>side with us because you know, what happens is was

538
00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:38.920
<v Speaker 2>the same thing as as with n Essay during the transition.

539
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:45.279
<v Speaker 2>As a manager, you have responsibility to look forward and

540
00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:48.759
<v Speaker 2>to put your agency in the best position to deal

541
00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:51.519
<v Speaker 2>with what's coming over the horizon. But knowing what's coming

542
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:54.400
<v Speaker 2>over the rising is very hard. And at the same time,

543
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:57.680
<v Speaker 2>you still got to deliver the mail every day, and

544
00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:00.519
<v Speaker 2>the stuff that's coming in on your legacy syss is

545
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:02.759
<v Speaker 2>your bread and butter, and you don't want to upset

546
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:05.319
<v Speaker 2>the people who are making your bread and buttering it

547
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:08.559
<v Speaker 2>by telling them I'm going to take twenty or twenty

548
00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:11.599
<v Speaker 2>five percent of your resources and turn it towards this

549
00:31:12.039 --> 00:31:15.599
<v Speaker 2>news source which may or may not, you know, come

550
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:20.960
<v Speaker 2>to fruition. And so they at NSAY they made the

551
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:24.079
<v Speaker 2>tough decision to take that twenty percent of the workforce

552
00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:27.720
<v Speaker 2>and give it over to the transition so we could

553
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:30.079
<v Speaker 2>figure out how to do the processing and we could

554
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.720
<v Speaker 2>see where we were going, and we made a successful transition.

555
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:36.319
<v Speaker 2>At the Open Source Center. They did not do that,

556
00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:40.279
<v Speaker 2>and I kind of got off the social media wagon.

557
00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:42.799
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I was working as a consultant for companies

558
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:44.799
<v Speaker 2>for a while on this, but I stopped a while ago.

559
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:49.680
<v Speaker 2>When I did, I estimated that the intelligence community was

560
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:53.319
<v Speaker 2>almost ten years behind what the commercial sector can do

561
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:58.279
<v Speaker 2>in evaluating social medium. That was the upshot of that,

562
00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:02.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, I understand and the attitude of my peers

563
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:05.279
<v Speaker 2>not wanting to give up what they were doing, but

564
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:07.039
<v Speaker 2>it came at a great cost.

565
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, it's another tangent, but I think a

566
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:15.240
<v Speaker 1>lot of intelligence professionals have had sort of this criticism

567
00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:18.799
<v Speaker 1>that there are these open source investigators that are able

568
00:32:18.839 --> 00:32:21.920
<v Speaker 1>to put things together and connect things that even the

569
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:25.279
<v Speaker 1>intelligence community hasn't been able to do, or at least

570
00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:28.480
<v Speaker 1>not able to do very well. But then there's also

571
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:32.119
<v Speaker 1>some thought now that because of AI, that the golden

572
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:36.359
<v Speaker 1>era of open source intelligence is basically over, that that

573
00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:41.400
<v Speaker 1>the information environment's becoming so polluted with artificial intelligence content

574
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:45.960
<v Speaker 1>and so on, that even those types of that type

575
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:48.680
<v Speaker 1>of intelligence isn't going to be as fruitful as maybe

576
00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:49.240
<v Speaker 1>it used to be.

577
00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:52.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I can't imagine it would be. We are sitting

578
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:56.799
<v Speaker 2>seeing the inditientification of the Internet. As Cory Doctoro says,

579
00:32:56.839 --> 00:33:02.240
<v Speaker 2>he's absolutely true. AI is already messing shit up and

580
00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:06.119
<v Speaker 2>plowing it back into the you know, like the septic

581
00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:10.839
<v Speaker 2>field that is our Internet. Yeah, I don't know what's

582
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:13.880
<v Speaker 2>going to happen in the future. I did a lot

583
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:17.400
<v Speaker 2>of work recently before I finally gave up consulting work

584
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:21.640
<v Speaker 2>on generative AI and artificial intelligence. So, but I jumped

585
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:24.039
<v Speaker 2>off it about a year and a half ago, so

586
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:27.319
<v Speaker 2>I'm not up to speed on the on what's happening

587
00:33:27.319 --> 00:33:30.039
<v Speaker 2>now in the last year and a half is orders

588
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:35.160
<v Speaker 2>of magnitude and sophistication. Yeah, I don't know what's going

589
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:35.599
<v Speaker 2>to happen.

590
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:38.839
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So we've been jumping around a little bit, which

591
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:41.759
<v Speaker 1>is totally fine. I just don't want to blow over

592
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:44.640
<v Speaker 1>a few things. One of them was your work on

593
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Phase four operations, and it sounds like you were kind

594
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:51.519
<v Speaker 1>of knee deep maybe in like the West Africa stuff,

595
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:56.160
<v Speaker 1>the Balkans and things like that back in those days. Yeah, yeah,

596
00:33:56.440 --> 00:33:59.680
<v Speaker 1>could you explain to the listeners what Phase four operations

597
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:01.799
<v Speaker 1>are sort of what your role was there.

598
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:07.480
<v Speaker 2>So the nineties, which we sometimes called the Golden Age

599
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:12.400
<v Speaker 2>of genocide, there were many many civil conflicts, internal conflicts

600
00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:15.079
<v Speaker 2>in countries, a lot of them in Africa, but not

601
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:20.119
<v Speaker 2>solely in Africa, and at that time it was less,

602
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:23.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, American boots on the ground than multinational forces.

603
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:29.760
<v Speaker 2>So the US was being called to, you know, put

604
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:32.880
<v Speaker 2>forces on the ground. Sometimes it was NATO, sometimes it

605
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:35.760
<v Speaker 2>would be combination of things. And so whenever that happens,

606
00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:39.159
<v Speaker 2>the intelligence community has to support those. You know, NSA

607
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:43.760
<v Speaker 2>is a defense department institution. You are supporting the warfighter

608
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:48.000
<v Speaker 2>in addition to supporting policymakers. So we would have to

609
00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:51.960
<v Speaker 2>spin up these war rooms to try to help support

610
00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:57.719
<v Speaker 2>these things. Also, just sort of the approach that intelligence

611
00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:00.920
<v Speaker 2>community agencies have, which I sort of mentioned a little bit,

612
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:04.480
<v Speaker 2>It tends to be sort of split up between the offices,

613
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:08.920
<v Speaker 2>get divided up geographically, so you know regions you'll have,

614
00:35:09.159 --> 00:35:13.280
<v Speaker 2>so you'll have the right resources to support whatever you're

615
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:16.239
<v Speaker 2>doing in that particular area, language, et cetera, et cetera.

616
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:20.119
<v Speaker 2>And at that time, there weren't a lot of people

617
00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:23.880
<v Speaker 2>that were used to dealing with these kinds of operations.

618
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:27.840
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't strictly combat. There would be other components to

619
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:32.800
<v Speaker 2>what usually had humanitarian component. That's why they were called

620
00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:36.000
<v Speaker 2>operations other than combat. It wasn't just war fighting. And

621
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:39.119
<v Speaker 2>so it became useful to have people like me to

622
00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:44.079
<v Speaker 2>go from one to the next because we carried this

623
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:48.119
<v Speaker 2>knowledge of what you could expect, how the multinational forces

624
00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:50.280
<v Speaker 2>were going to work, how they were going to interact

625
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:53.239
<v Speaker 2>with international organizations, what was going to be called upon

626
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:56.719
<v Speaker 2>in the event of humanitarian relief. That ended up being

627
00:35:56.719 --> 00:35:59.960
<v Speaker 2>a huge part of my job was following a humanitarian

628
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:03.239
<v Speaker 2>in operations, and that's what I did for Rumsfeld's office.

629
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:06.559
<v Speaker 2>When I ended up going down to OSD after nine

630
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:09.559
<v Speaker 2>to eleven so yeah, it was sort of a hybrid thing,

631
00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:12.599
<v Speaker 2>and it was always, always, always, always a war room

632
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:17.360
<v Speaker 2>component whenever there were US forces there. When something happened,

633
00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:20.840
<v Speaker 2>often you had to be twenty four hours with a

634
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:24.960
<v Speaker 2>small staff. So yeah, there was a lot of watchstanding

635
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:28.719
<v Speaker 2>for instance. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Two

636
00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:32.239
<v Speaker 2>and a half years on the Balkans, I had Somalia,

637
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:37.360
<v Speaker 2>Sierra Leone, They're all fading in the midst of time.

638
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:45.239
<v Speaker 2>I think it started with Rwanda, d Rock, Yeah, East Liberia,

639
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:46.480
<v Speaker 2>how can I forget Liberia?

640
00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:50.320
<v Speaker 1>Did you do North Iraq? Also with the Kurds.

641
00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:58.559
<v Speaker 2>Not so much prior to the Iraq War? I do

642
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:00.039
<v Speaker 2>you think there was something.

643
00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:03.480
<v Speaker 1>Else they had? There's the military did a big humanitarian

644
00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:08.400
<v Speaker 1>operation to head off a famine in the Kurdish areas

645
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:12.639
<v Speaker 1>of Iraq after the Gulf War, I believe, so maybe

646
00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:15.400
<v Speaker 1>like ninety four, ninety three or something like that.

647
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:22.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was doing Africa. Then we did have a

648
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:28.440
<v Speaker 2>team that looked at Iraq, but they were focused on WMD.

649
00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:35.760
<v Speaker 1>So you had a pretty broad experience doing that in

650
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:41.000
<v Speaker 1>these different theaters. I'd be interested to ask you what

651
00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:43.360
<v Speaker 1>kind of grade would you give the United States? Did

652
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:46.360
<v Speaker 1>we do better in some areas than others. What made

653
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:49.000
<v Speaker 1>the difference between success and failure? I mean, just from

654
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:52.480
<v Speaker 1>your unique perspective, I'm really interested, like what kind of

655
00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:55.800
<v Speaker 1>like lessons learned you may have pulled out of that experience.

656
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:01.719
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I mean just from my my little

657
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:04.639
<v Speaker 2>corner of it is the intelligence community, and it was

658
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:07.800
<v Speaker 2>sort of the same experience as when I was finding

659
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:10.800
<v Speaker 2>I would later find in the technical area, and that

660
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:13.719
<v Speaker 2>is you know, when you're doing something that is not

661
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:19.360
<v Speaker 2>the standard, it's it's rough because you're not going to

662
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:22.559
<v Speaker 2>get the resources you need. So for instance, and I

663
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:25.360
<v Speaker 2>laugh at myself today, but I remember when I was

664
00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:28.719
<v Speaker 2>going through this in the nineties and we were watching

665
00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:33.920
<v Speaker 2>Russia implode and they were complaining because you know, there

666
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:37.199
<v Speaker 2>was a lot of call to draw down the incredible

667
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:39.719
<v Speaker 2>amount of resources we threw. You know, Russia was target

668
00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:43.559
<v Speaker 2>number one. And then with the Cold War seemingly dissolving,

669
00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:47.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, did we really need six hundred Russian linguists now?

670
00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:51.000
<v Speaker 2>You know? Could I have a few of them to work?

671
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:55.360
<v Speaker 2>You know, I'll give you an example. When I worked

672
00:38:55.400 --> 00:38:57.880
<v Speaker 2>on the Balkans, for instance, the team I had, which

673
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:02.360
<v Speaker 2>was the Multilateral team, we had maybe twenty people, and

674
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:07.000
<v Speaker 2>that's to do round the clock operations, whereas the Balkans

675
00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:11.159
<v Speaker 2>office itself had one hundred and fifty people, and they

676
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:14.800
<v Speaker 2>NATO had blown up their communications, so they weren't even

677
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:17.760
<v Speaker 2>as busy right as we were. And yet I could

678
00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:21.320
<v Speaker 2>not convince them to hive off a handful of people

679
00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:25.679
<v Speaker 2>and give them to us. So, you know, it was

680
00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:28.960
<v Speaker 2>hard to keep the wheels on the train and to

681
00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:32.639
<v Speaker 2>meet the high demand from customers when you were not

682
00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:36.599
<v Speaker 2>being given the resources, which from my perspective, you know,

683
00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:39.599
<v Speaker 2>I thought that was bad management. Then after I became

684
00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:42.039
<v Speaker 2>a manager, I realized how hard it is to make

685
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:45.239
<v Speaker 2>people do something against their will. You know, if they

686
00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:48.400
<v Speaker 2>studied Russia and got their advanced degree in it, they're

687
00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:50.360
<v Speaker 2>really not going to want you to tell them to

688
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:52.400
<v Speaker 2>just go over there for a year and do this

689
00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:53.079
<v Speaker 2>other job.

690
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:57.360
<v Speaker 1>And what year was it that you made the jump

691
00:39:57.400 --> 00:40:00.400
<v Speaker 1>from NSA to CIA.

692
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:04.880
<v Speaker 2>Well it was two thousand and three. After nine to eleven,

693
00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:08.199
<v Speaker 2>I went downtown for two years, so and I was

694
00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:10.559
<v Speaker 2>still an nsay or at that time, but I was

695
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:15.000
<v Speaker 2>sent to State Department and I worked on policy there

696
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:18.719
<v Speaker 2>in the multinational arena. Because of my background in multi nationalism,

697
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:24.800
<v Speaker 2>and it was to work on the team that helped

698
00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:31.760
<v Speaker 2>prevent the people that we thought were responsible from fleeing

699
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:35.920
<v Speaker 2>to other countries, mostly North Africa. So we worked on

700
00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:40.320
<v Speaker 2>the National Security Council trying to get them, you know,

701
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:44.440
<v Speaker 2>member states to support us in preventing this. It was

702
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:46.880
<v Speaker 2>the what did we call it, I forget, you know,

703
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:50.760
<v Speaker 2>the Flea States. So I did that for a year,

704
00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:55.320
<v Speaker 2>and then I ended up going to the what used

705
00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:59.679
<v Speaker 2>to be called the Office of Humanitarian Assistance until Bush's

706
00:40:59.719 --> 00:41:02.480
<v Speaker 2>people decided we didn't do that, and then it became

707
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:06.679
<v Speaker 2>the Office of Reconstruction and something else I forget now.

708
00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:11.639
<v Speaker 2>So I worked on the Iraq war planning for a year.

709
00:41:12.199 --> 00:41:14.320
<v Speaker 2>That was the most eye opening.

710
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:15.480
<v Speaker 1>Experience tell us about that.

711
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:18.920
<v Speaker 2>So I was one of the few people in there

712
00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:23.360
<v Speaker 2>who actually had ever worked Phase four combat operations, and

713
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:25.679
<v Speaker 2>I was brought in to help advise on what would

714
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:28.480
<v Speaker 2>happen in Phase four, which is what happens after combat

715
00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:31.199
<v Speaker 2>as your troops are moving through a country and you're

716
00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:34.639
<v Speaker 2>trying to secure the back area and make sure that

717
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:37.159
<v Speaker 2>the humanitarian stuff is in place and all that kind

718
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:41.760
<v Speaker 2>of stuff. Work with the civil affairs officers, and it

719
00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:46.159
<v Speaker 2>became quickly apparent that they had no interest in that

720
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:47.440
<v Speaker 2>that really.

721
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:51.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm not telling nation building was a bad word at

722
00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:51.960
<v Speaker 1>the time.

723
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:56.239
<v Speaker 2>Very much so, but also just their whole concept going

724
00:41:56.239 --> 00:42:00.920
<v Speaker 2>into that war was wrong, was wrong. I was at

725
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:04.159
<v Speaker 2>the Iraq Rock Drill, which is where you get together

726
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:07.119
<v Speaker 2>before operations, and everybody goes around the room so we

727
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.599
<v Speaker 2>are all on the same page. And it became very

728
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:12.519
<v Speaker 2>apparent listening to all the different components that were there,

729
00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:15.760
<v Speaker 2>that no one was on the same page. Some of

730
00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:18.679
<v Speaker 2>the offices were told we were there for WMD, and

731
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:22.000
<v Speaker 2>other offices were being told we were there for other purposes.

732
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:26.760
<v Speaker 2>And I remember General what is his name, the first

733
00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:33.440
<v Speaker 2>guy we sent in. General I want to see I'm sorry, no,

734
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:38.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry for humanitarian assistance. He was a retired general.

735
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:42.519
<v Speaker 2>I can picture space. And he realized at that moment

736
00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:45.920
<v Speaker 2>he was screwed that he was being sent in there

737
00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:47.920
<v Speaker 2>and he was going to take the blame. And I

738
00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:49.599
<v Speaker 2>told him, I said, you're going to be twisted in

739
00:42:49.639 --> 00:42:51.239
<v Speaker 2>the wind. And you know, he was sent back within

740
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:53.599
<v Speaker 2>six months because as soon as he got there, he

741
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:59.280
<v Speaker 2>realized that this was a setup. So yeah, and so

742
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:02.760
<v Speaker 2>at a certain point, you know, I was telling people.

743
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:05.360
<v Speaker 2>I was telling their generals, this is not how it's

744
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:06.960
<v Speaker 2>going to work. You're not going to go in and

745
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:09.239
<v Speaker 2>they're going to welcome you as saviors and everything's going

746
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:12.840
<v Speaker 2>to be great. I didn't see them ripping copper out

747
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.159
<v Speaker 2>of the walls by day three, but you know, that

748
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:18.559
<v Speaker 2>was what happened, destroying buildings and all this stuff. I mean,

749
00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:20.679
<v Speaker 2>I knew from everything I had seen we were going

750
00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:22.840
<v Speaker 2>to have a humanitarian crisis on our hands, and they

751
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:26.119
<v Speaker 2>butter put things in place, which of course they did not.

752
00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:29.639
<v Speaker 1>Why so I think there was such a disinterest in

753
00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:33.239
<v Speaker 1>planning for this when you know, for starters, it's a

754
00:43:33.239 --> 00:43:38.400
<v Speaker 1>part of military doctrine, the demobilization or transition process. But

755
00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:43.159
<v Speaker 1>also there's this sort of like real politic just bureaucratic incentive.

756
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:46.119
<v Speaker 1>If you're the Bush administration, you don't want to preside

757
00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:48.559
<v Speaker 1>over a failed war, and if you don't have some

758
00:43:48.599 --> 00:43:52.159
<v Speaker 1>sort of like legitimate reconstruction plan, you know, then you're

759
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:55.400
<v Speaker 1>condemning our forces to just like kind of camp out

760
00:43:55.400 --> 00:43:57.840
<v Speaker 1>there forever. I guess, which is sort of what happened.

761
00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:01.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I'm I wish I knew the answer.

762
00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:04.000
<v Speaker 2>I just know what I felt from the meetings I

763
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:06.800
<v Speaker 2>was in and talking to various officials, you know, I

764
00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:09.920
<v Speaker 2>was at the as D level, not the you know,

765
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:13.880
<v Speaker 2>under secretary level, So God only knows what went on

766
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:18.800
<v Speaker 2>in those meetings, But partly there was just a feel,

767
00:44:18.920 --> 00:44:22.199
<v Speaker 2>a feel I think that we had the most powerful

768
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:25.800
<v Speaker 2>war machine on earth. There was no way we were

769
00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:28.719
<v Speaker 2>going to fail. Sure, we were going to be able

770
00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:31.920
<v Speaker 2>to take the country pretty easily, and I don't know

771
00:44:31.960 --> 00:44:35.840
<v Speaker 2>why they didn't think that that it was going to

772
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:39.480
<v Speaker 2>be as hard as it was afterwards. But also going

773
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:42.599
<v Speaker 2>into it, you know, there was a big fight between

774
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:47.920
<v Speaker 2>the agencies. There were departments like State Department that did

775
00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:51.159
<v Speaker 2>not agree with what Bush wanted to well Bush, what

776
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:55.599
<v Speaker 2>Cheney and Rumsfeld wanted to do. And they actually started

777
00:44:55.599 --> 00:45:00.239
<v Speaker 2>their planning process first, and they held conferences and they

778
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:04.159
<v Speaker 2>brought in as many Iraq experts as they could, and

779
00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:08.360
<v Speaker 2>the Defense Department really wanted to get a hold on

780
00:45:09.159 --> 00:45:11.960
<v Speaker 2>their strategy, but State Department wouldn't give it to them.

781
00:45:12.039 --> 00:45:14.400
<v Speaker 2>And I was one person who really knew the guy

782
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:16.800
<v Speaker 2>at State Department who was running that really well, and

783
00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:19.360
<v Speaker 2>so I was kind of caught in the middle for

784
00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:22.960
<v Speaker 2>a little while, and we tried to hold our own conferences.

785
00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:27.039
<v Speaker 2>But when the experts told the defense officials the same thing,

786
00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:29.440
<v Speaker 2>this is a horrible mistake and you're not looking at

787
00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:33.400
<v Speaker 2>this correctly. They basically just told us to pound sand

788
00:45:33.400 --> 00:45:36.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I was called a trader to my face, right,

789
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:40.199
<v Speaker 2>twenty yes, after twenty years working in intelligence, being an

790
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:41.440
<v Speaker 2>athal time like that.

791
00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:45.199
<v Speaker 1>You like lacked sufficient patriotism to support the war, that kind.

792
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Of thing, right, right, So we tried our best to

793
00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:57.599
<v Speaker 2>advise and they didn't want to listen to us. We

794
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:01.119
<v Speaker 2>tried our best to try to manage the case us afterwards,

795
00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:05.719
<v Speaker 2>but it just could not be held. I mean, it's

796
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:09.559
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's a crime, really, what they did.

797
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:13.599
<v Speaker 1>It's the saddest thing for me is that we have

798
00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:18.480
<v Speaker 1>learned basically or we have learned absolutely nothing from the experience.

799
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:21.400
<v Speaker 1>If you look at what we're doing in Iran right now,

800
00:46:21.719 --> 00:46:25.199
<v Speaker 1>there's no plan. There's no plan for this. You know.

801
00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:27.400
<v Speaker 1>The plan is, hey, we're going to drop some bombs

802
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:29.239
<v Speaker 1>and if that doesn't work, we're going to drop some

803
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:31.960
<v Speaker 1>more bombs. And no one's thought beyond that.

804
00:46:33.039 --> 00:46:36.280
<v Speaker 2>It's absolutely ludicrous. But the only way, of course that

805
00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:38.800
<v Speaker 2>this administration can get away with this is that they

806
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:43.880
<v Speaker 2>have people with absolutely zero experience leading these departments, and

807
00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:47.360
<v Speaker 2>it's such a disservice to the professional people who have

808
00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:50.360
<v Speaker 2>run this government and the people in the military, and

809
00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:53.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, the government workforce who work so hard to

810
00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:56.480
<v Speaker 2>develop this expertise so we understand how to do these things.

811
00:46:57.320 --> 00:47:00.400
<v Speaker 2>It's like it all over again, but worse, like having

812
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:02.920
<v Speaker 2>clown tell you, you know, to shut up and sit

813
00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:06.880
<v Speaker 2>in the corner, and you're absolutely right. There's no plan.

814
00:47:07.119 --> 00:47:09.639
<v Speaker 2>I have been through war planning for something like this.

815
00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:14.719
<v Speaker 2>There's nothing even remotely like it. So the American people,

816
00:47:14.760 --> 00:47:18.599
<v Speaker 2>I don't understand. I just don't understand what they want.

817
00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:21.840
<v Speaker 1>Well, well, the American people have this weird thing. And

818
00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:25.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, they've been conditioned also for twenty five years

819
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:30.199
<v Speaker 1>at least now maybe more, that airstrikes in special ops

820
00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:33.400
<v Speaker 1>is not war in their mind. I don't know why

821
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:36.320
<v Speaker 1>that is. They think that, like if we're blowing the

822
00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:38.840
<v Speaker 1>shit out of like a girls' school in a foreign country,

823
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:42.000
<v Speaker 1>in their mind, that's not war. I don't get it,

824
00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:45.760
<v Speaker 1>but they've been conditioned to believe that that's true.

825
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:48.559
<v Speaker 2>That's true. And yeah, I don't understand either. Is it

826
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:50.719
<v Speaker 2>the movies? Is it because they see it on a

827
00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:54.519
<v Speaker 2>movie and they think, well, that's different. It's not real

828
00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:54.920
<v Speaker 2>to them.

829
00:47:55.039 --> 00:47:56.840
<v Speaker 1>I know, I think that's I think that's a big

830
00:47:56.880 --> 00:47:59.719
<v Speaker 1>part of it. And I think also there is a

831
00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:03.840
<v Speaker 1>such thing is you know, the Fortress America and just

832
00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:07.360
<v Speaker 1>the distance we have from it, that politics doesn't have

833
00:48:07.400 --> 00:48:10.079
<v Speaker 1>the immediacy for us that it has for people who

834
00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:13.519
<v Speaker 1>live in contentious parts of the world where you know,

835
00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:15.880
<v Speaker 1>the politics go hey wire in your country's being invaded.

836
00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:18.480
<v Speaker 1>You know, we don't really have that sort of experience here.

837
00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:21.760
<v Speaker 2>That's true. But you know, even in the nineties, you know,

838
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:24.719
<v Speaker 2>where I was closer to this, there were other things

839
00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:29.519
<v Speaker 2>that the American people cared about and that registered with them, right, so,

840
00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:33.360
<v Speaker 2>and yet none of that seems to have the same

841
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:38.360
<v Speaker 2>impact anymore on Americans where what is important to us?

842
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:41.679
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I actually blame technology for a lot

843
00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:46.440
<v Speaker 2>of this. I do feel that, you know, especially social media.

844
00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:50.400
<v Speaker 2>Social media is how people around the world communicate now, right,

845
00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:53.599
<v Speaker 2>used to be telephones and letters, not anymore. It's all

846
00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:57.400
<v Speaker 2>the social media, and it's different, right, It's asynchronous, and

847
00:48:57.920 --> 00:49:00.599
<v Speaker 2>it's also all propaganda. That was a big part of

848
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:03.639
<v Speaker 2>my work. My first teams. We're the ones who started

849
00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:07.039
<v Speaker 2>looking at how do you measure disinformation? How can you,

850
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:10.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, authenticate information, how can you authenticate users? What

851
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:13.360
<v Speaker 2>the hell's going on out there? And we are just

852
00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:17.440
<v Speaker 2>totally in an age of propaganda now. You really can't

853
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:20.639
<v Speaker 2>believe anything you hear from people. And you know, when

854
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:23.199
<v Speaker 2>I say that to people, especially kids, they're like, yeah, yeah,

855
00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:25.079
<v Speaker 2>we know, and yet they don't.

856
00:49:25.239 --> 00:49:29.719
<v Speaker 1>Right, right, but they go along believing it anyway, right, right,

857
00:49:30.039 --> 00:49:30.880
<v Speaker 1>what's the answer.

858
00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:33.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I've been yelling for years that really

859
00:49:33.320 --> 00:49:39.280
<v Speaker 2>what we need in this country is strong regulation of technology,

860
00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:42.679
<v Speaker 2>especially social media, and we need it for AI too.

861
00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:47.480
<v Speaker 2>It's from what I saw working with these companies when

862
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:51.440
<v Speaker 2>we first started doing the disinformation work, and I had

863
00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:54.440
<v Speaker 2>ended up retiring and was working with one of these

864
00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:59.119
<v Speaker 2>companies helping them in their outreach, especially to government. So

865
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:00.800
<v Speaker 2>we did a lot of cases, studies and that sort

866
00:50:00.800 --> 00:50:06.280
<v Speaker 2>of thing, and at that time Congress got it, but

867
00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:09.760
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately Trump was on the horizon and they knew he

868
00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:14.239
<v Speaker 2>did not want any policies looking into He did not want,

869
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:18.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, regulation of the technology interesting and didn't believe

870
00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:22.920
<v Speaker 2>said he didn't believe it that disinformation. So you know

871
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:25.039
<v Speaker 2>that kind of closed the door. Then there was a

872
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:27.960
<v Speaker 2>time when Congress kind of looked at whether or not

873
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.320
<v Speaker 2>we should do this. So a lot of the people

874
00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:33.559
<v Speaker 2>I knew and I still worked with on the outside researchers,

875
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:38.039
<v Speaker 2>they were working on projects for the big platforms. They

876
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:41.920
<v Speaker 2>worked with Google, they worked with Facebook, they worked with Twitter,

877
00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:45.400
<v Speaker 2>and you know, and then they told me and we

878
00:50:45.440 --> 00:50:50.000
<v Speaker 2>would just what we needed was like a quasi governmental organization.

879
00:50:50.519 --> 00:50:53.360
<v Speaker 2>Because the platforms won't talk to each other, they see

880
00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:58.000
<v Speaker 2>each other as competitors, and you can't shut down disinformation

881
00:50:59.360 --> 00:51:03.239
<v Speaker 2>platform by platform because the actors jump around, they move,

882
00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:06.440
<v Speaker 2>they're very fluid. There has to be coordination and the

883
00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:08.599
<v Speaker 2>only way that we could see that working was through

884
00:51:08.599 --> 00:51:13.159
<v Speaker 2>a quasi government governmental organization. We actually came close to

885
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:17.760
<v Speaker 2>having some Congress support that, but it passed because you know,

886
00:51:17.800 --> 00:51:20.079
<v Speaker 2>went away because of Trump and we're in this mess

887
00:51:20.119 --> 00:51:20.760
<v Speaker 2>word today.

888
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:25.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it does seem that our government has been so

889
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:28.519
<v Speaker 1>captured by these companies at this point that they're they're

890
00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:33.800
<v Speaker 1>the possibility of regulation just seems so far away. It's

891
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:38.039
<v Speaker 1>almost inconceivable, even though I think everyone knows exactly what

892
00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:40.719
<v Speaker 1>you said, that kind of we desperately need some type

893
00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:44.639
<v Speaker 1>of regulation that also protects people's you know, right to

894
00:51:44.679 --> 00:51:47.320
<v Speaker 1>express themselves and so on.

895
00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:51.000
<v Speaker 2>But it can be done, but it would shut down

896
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:59.039
<v Speaker 2>this open season onling right. But obviously there are some,

897
00:51:59.559 --> 00:52:03.840
<v Speaker 2>especially politicians, who have a vested interest that this, yeah,

898
00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:05.079
<v Speaker 2>remain well.

899
00:52:05.119 --> 00:52:09.280
<v Speaker 1>And also the companies themselves bounce around to They're very

900
00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:12.760
<v Speaker 1>nimble in how they're able to court the government. You know,

901
00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:15.920
<v Speaker 1>whether it's some Democrats or Republicans. They'll go and tell

902
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:18.119
<v Speaker 1>them what they want to hear it, and you know,

903
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.559
<v Speaker 1>walk away with goodies from the government. It seems that

904
00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:22.760
<v Speaker 1>it's not a big deal for them.

905
00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:25.559
<v Speaker 2>It's not. I mean in early on though, I will

906
00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:29.079
<v Speaker 2>say that they were it wasn't even handed. They were

907
00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:34.360
<v Speaker 2>courting conservatives because the conservatives were so critical of the

908
00:52:34.360 --> 00:52:38.199
<v Speaker 2>social platforms. Right around the time I retired and I

909
00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:40.679
<v Speaker 2>was looking for my next job, I was looking at

910
00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:43.800
<v Speaker 2>what was available at places like Google or whatever in

911
00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:47.039
<v Speaker 2>the policy areas, and they were looking for policy people

912
00:52:47.639 --> 00:52:51.079
<v Speaker 2>government to be liaisms with the government. But they only

913
00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:54.400
<v Speaker 2>wanted them for right wing organizations. They weren't doing anything

914
00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:56.920
<v Speaker 2>for the left leaning organizations.

915
00:52:57.320 --> 00:53:01.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean definitely there's this sort of like

916
00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:04.360
<v Speaker 1>bouncing back and forth, and you know, I think we

917
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:07.480
<v Speaker 1>can all remember like the rhetoric about big tech and

918
00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:10.239
<v Speaker 1>they wanted to get big tech under control. And then

919
00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:13.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, after the election, Zuckerberg and Elon or they're

920
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:16.840
<v Speaker 1>at the inauguration. It's like all that just went away apparently.

921
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:23.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, that is that's a big tragedy

922
00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:26.840
<v Speaker 2>really for this country. And maybe it'll swing back. I

923
00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:31.599
<v Speaker 2>mean there was the finding against Meta recently that they

924
00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:33.360
<v Speaker 2>did contribute.

925
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:36.679
<v Speaker 1>To mental health addictas behaviors, Yeah.

926
00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:40.519
<v Speaker 2>Which they certainly did. You know, it's it's just insane

927
00:53:40.760 --> 00:53:43.679
<v Speaker 2>that you can see these behaviors out there. You know

928
00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:47.239
<v Speaker 2>they're doing it, they're lying about doing it. You know,

929
00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:51.039
<v Speaker 2>it's gaslighting, to use a popular word. I guess maybe

930
00:53:51.039 --> 00:53:51.960
<v Speaker 2>that'll make a difference.

931
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:55.000
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's really depressing,

932
00:53:55.719 --> 00:53:59.480
<v Speaker 1>you know how our government has sort of abdicated its

933
00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:03.559
<v Speaker 1>responsible ability to protect the public, even like the FBI

934
00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:07.199
<v Speaker 1>saying recently that you should use Signal or another encrypted

935
00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:11.559
<v Speaker 1>app to protect your communications because we can't and won't

936
00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:15.840
<v Speaker 1>protect them. How does that work? I don't know.

937
00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:19.760
<v Speaker 2>Hopefully the people a Signal are overjoyed. Of course, they

938
00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:23.119
<v Speaker 2>started because they didn't trust the government, So yeah, that's

939
00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:26.400
<v Speaker 2>kind of interesting. Well, you know, we did put ourselves

940
00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:28.719
<v Speaker 2>in this fix. One of the technologies that we have

941
00:54:29.159 --> 00:54:33.639
<v Speaker 2>that I've watched my whole career is computer security, and

942
00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:39.119
<v Speaker 2>the companies know, everybody knows we need more computer security

943
00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:42.960
<v Speaker 2>baked into our products, but companies have said, we're not

944
00:54:43.039 --> 00:54:46.800
<v Speaker 2>going to put it in there unless consumers want it,

945
00:54:46.840 --> 00:54:50.559
<v Speaker 2>and consumers don't want it enough to make it, you know,

946
00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:53.480
<v Speaker 2>worth the investment for them. We do this to ourselves.

947
00:54:56.639 --> 00:55:00.440
<v Speaker 1>So to get us back on the time mine a

948
00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:05.320
<v Speaker 1>bit after the Iraq War planning, what was sort of

949
00:55:05.320 --> 00:55:06.519
<v Speaker 1>the next step in your career.

950
00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:15.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, I was at the Pentagon when who was it Hayden.

951
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:18.360
<v Speaker 2>Now I love Hayden, General Hayden. He was the chief

952
00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:21.519
<v Speaker 2>of NSA for the transformation, and like I said, he

953
00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:25.480
<v Speaker 2>did a tremendous job. But I was there when he

954
00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:28.280
<v Speaker 2>came to talk to the workforce about the Patriot Act

955
00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:30.840
<v Speaker 2>because of course it had a big impact for NSA, right,

956
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:35.760
<v Speaker 2>and it really ran against the policies that singand analysts

957
00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:40.599
<v Speaker 2>are trained to go by. And I was it just

958
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:43.679
<v Speaker 2>shocked me how much he was in Rumsfeldt's pocket. And

959
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:46.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, that there was no pushback on this. So

960
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:49.199
<v Speaker 2>I was complaining to David Gordon, my friend who was

961
00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:52.639
<v Speaker 2>the NIO and at the time he was a office

962
00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:55.840
<v Speaker 2>manager at CIA, and I said, I really don't want

963
00:55:55.880 --> 00:55:58.079
<v Speaker 2>to go back to the Defense Department, and he said,

964
00:55:58.119 --> 00:56:01.800
<v Speaker 2>come work for me. So I went to CIA. At

965
00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:03.760
<v Speaker 2>that point they hired me and I went and I

966
00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:08.960
<v Speaker 2>was the senior humanitarian analyst for five years. Cool so

967
00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:11.079
<v Speaker 2>I had to become an all source analyst, had to

968
00:56:11.159 --> 00:56:13.280
<v Speaker 2>learn how to do that. It was a really eye

969
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:16.480
<v Speaker 2>opening experience because I was coming in as a mid careerist.

970
00:56:17.079 --> 00:56:22.079
<v Speaker 2>As you know, probably most agencies, government agencies like you

971
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:24.519
<v Speaker 2>to come in as a young person, and so you

972
00:56:24.679 --> 00:56:27.079
<v Speaker 2>come up through the ranks and you really are just

973
00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:31.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, immersed in the culture and all those things

974
00:56:31.039 --> 00:56:33.519
<v Speaker 2>that I talked about, you know, like learning, classification and all.

975
00:56:33.679 --> 00:56:37.280
<v Speaker 2>You learn their ways and it just seeps into your pores, right.

976
00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:40.960
<v Speaker 2>So everyone has the same experiences, and so it's hard

977
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:44.679
<v Speaker 2>when you come in mid career. It's very hard bringing

978
00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:48.079
<v Speaker 2>in people from industry, you know, from outside the government.

979
00:56:48.280 --> 00:56:51.079
<v Speaker 2>You bring them in for their expertise in a particular domain,

980
00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:54.559
<v Speaker 2>but they didn't come up through the ranks and so

981
00:56:54.599 --> 00:56:57.400
<v Speaker 2>they don't have the same experiences and the same understanding

982
00:56:57.480 --> 00:57:01.920
<v Speaker 2>and all that. It was very hard, and David brought

983
00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:06.719
<v Speaker 2>several folks in from other agencies as mid careers, and

984
00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:10.000
<v Speaker 2>it was hard for all of us. Yeah, so at

985
00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:12.559
<v Speaker 2>the end of five years, he ended up becoming assistant

986
00:57:12.599 --> 00:57:17.159
<v Speaker 2>secretary for Condoleeza Rice. He left left me high and dry,

987
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:20.920
<v Speaker 2>and then I had to fight off the wolves because

988
00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:26.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, I was an outsider. But after five years,

989
00:57:27.639 --> 00:57:30.360
<v Speaker 2>that's when I got the gig. Basically, I did a

990
00:57:30.440 --> 00:57:34.199
<v Speaker 2>year of recruiting and during that time Open Source Center

991
00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:36.199
<v Speaker 2>came to me and said, we need someone who has

992
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:38.440
<v Speaker 2>a technical background to work on social media.

993
00:57:38.559 --> 00:57:45.079
<v Speaker 1>So and what was this horrible story that got turned

994
00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:46.159
<v Speaker 1>into a novel.

995
00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:52.599
<v Speaker 2>It happened in when I was in the Office of

996
00:57:52.599 --> 00:57:59.760
<v Speaker 2>Transnational Issues. The new office director, who had been my

997
00:57:59.800 --> 00:58:05.320
<v Speaker 2>friend David's deputy, did a really stupid, stupid thing and

998
00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:10.960
<v Speaker 2>he he basically dabbled in operations without telling the Directorate

999
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:15.599
<v Speaker 2>of Operations he was doing this. And it was a disaster,

1000
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:21.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean like a really bad disaster, and they frog

1001
00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:26.719
<v Speaker 2>marched all the analysts into the bubble and said, you're

1002
00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:29.599
<v Speaker 2>never going to do this again, and they put down

1003
00:58:29.679 --> 00:58:33.639
<v Speaker 2>all these new coordination rules, you know, so no one

1004
00:58:33.679 --> 00:58:38.719
<v Speaker 2>would ever make this horrible mistake again. And yeah, that's

1005
00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:40.840
<v Speaker 2>the most I can tell you about it, sorry, because

1006
00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:43.800
<v Speaker 2>if I say anything more, you'll know what the incident was.

1007
00:58:45.199 --> 00:58:49.480
<v Speaker 1>Uh well, how did how did that get fictionalized in

1008
00:58:49.519 --> 00:58:50.920
<v Speaker 1>the book?

1009
00:58:52.000 --> 00:59:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, so somebody died during this operation that this guy authorized,

1010
00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:08.880
<v Speaker 2>and in a denied territory, and so I just how

1011
00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:12.519
<v Speaker 2>to put this? I thought it was interesting that a

1012
00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:17.639
<v Speaker 2>manager could well he didn't survive, he got thrown out,

1013
00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:21.920
<v Speaker 2>but he should have gone to jail. Somebody died. But

1014
00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:26.599
<v Speaker 2>you know that's not what happens in the intelligence, especially CIA, right,

1015
00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:32.119
<v Speaker 2>their mandate is to do these impossible things, you know,

1016
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:37.199
<v Speaker 2>for a policy objective. Basically, you know, he wanted the

1017
00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:40.039
<v Speaker 2>right outcome. He just went about it the wrong way

1018
00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:43.159
<v Speaker 2>and so his punishment was to be banished from the kingdom.

1019
00:59:43.400 --> 00:59:46.159
<v Speaker 2>But I just thought that was so weird. And I'll

1020
00:59:46.199 --> 00:59:48.760
<v Speaker 2>tell you in publishing, when I talked to my editors

1021
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:51.760
<v Speaker 2>and agents and I told them the story as much

1022
00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:56.199
<v Speaker 2>as I could, they were flabbergasted that all he got

1023
00:59:56.480 --> 01:00:01.280
<v Speaker 2>was fired, that he didn't go to jail. I think

1024
01:00:01.320 --> 01:00:05.280
<v Speaker 2>it kind of showed that the public doesn't really understand

1025
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:10.320
<v Speaker 2>what intelligence does, what you know, the rules that apply

1026
01:00:10.440 --> 01:00:12.519
<v Speaker 2>to it, and that sort of thing. I can't I

1027
01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:15.079
<v Speaker 2>really can't tell you more, even though it's been quite

1028
01:00:15.079 --> 01:00:15.559
<v Speaker 2>a while.

1029
01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:20.519
<v Speaker 1>The uh was I mean, that's like one of those

1030
01:00:20.599 --> 01:00:23.440
<v Speaker 1>kind of like hard lines, right that analysts aren't supposed

1031
01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:24.679
<v Speaker 1>to be running operations.

1032
01:00:25.280 --> 01:00:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh, absolutely absolutely. But this guy you knew dealing with them,

1033
01:00:31.199 --> 01:00:35.639
<v Speaker 2>that he thought too much of himself, and he was

1034
01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:40.400
<v Speaker 2>always he prided himself on thinking outside the box, and

1035
01:00:40.480 --> 01:00:44.880
<v Speaker 2>you had to be prepared to tell him, no, I

1036
01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:48.719
<v Speaker 2>won't do that, Amy, you'll do that. You have to

1037
01:00:48.719 --> 01:00:51.599
<v Speaker 2>find another person to do that for you. And a

1038
01:00:51.639 --> 01:00:52.960
<v Speaker 2>couple of people didn't tell him that.

1039
01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:55.880
<v Speaker 1>It reminds me, as you're telling me this story, it

1040
01:00:55.920 --> 01:00:59.760
<v Speaker 1>reminds me about you know, what's been said about Oliver

1041
01:01:00.079 --> 01:01:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Worth in the nineteen eighties, that he was going to

1042
01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:05.320
<v Speaker 1>these embassies and saying, hey, I'm a direct representative from

1043
01:01:05.360 --> 01:01:07.800
<v Speaker 1>the White House. I have this letter from President Reagan

1044
01:01:08.039 --> 01:01:10.519
<v Speaker 1>saying this to the station chiefs, you're going to do,

1045
01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:16.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, parallel unilateral operations for me, and all the

1046
01:01:16.159 --> 01:01:19.280
<v Speaker 1>station chiefs reported back to the CIA even though they

1047
01:01:19.480 --> 01:01:22.320
<v Speaker 1>Oliver North said, you cannot to tell anyone. All of

1048
01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:24.760
<v Speaker 1>them reported back. I believe the one that didn't was

1049
01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:27.119
<v Speaker 1>the station chief in Honduras, and he was the one

1050
01:01:27.119 --> 01:01:27.920
<v Speaker 1>that cut canned.

1051
01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:33.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. See, they were smart. They were smart. Now, the

1052
01:01:33.320 --> 01:01:36.639
<v Speaker 2>Havana syndrome story has something in it. That was another

1053
01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:40.159
<v Speaker 2>thing that happened in my career. Happened when I was

1054
01:01:40.199 --> 01:01:44.480
<v Speaker 2>at NSA, and it has to do with an official

1055
01:01:44.840 --> 01:01:48.960
<v Speaker 2>on the policy side getting caught making a secret deal

1056
01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:53.639
<v Speaker 2>with the enemy. So that was fun. I got to

1057
01:01:53.679 --> 01:01:56.719
<v Speaker 2>go back, and I mean it wasn't fun at the time.

1058
01:01:57.079 --> 01:02:00.360
<v Speaker 2>We felt very bad for this person. This person his

1059
01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:03.199
<v Speaker 2>heart was actually in the right place. He was trying

1060
01:02:03.239 --> 01:02:06.159
<v Speaker 2>to do the right thing. It's just that he believed

1061
01:02:06.280 --> 01:02:09.440
<v Speaker 2>the adversary when the adversary puffed up his ego and

1062
01:02:09.519 --> 01:02:11.639
<v Speaker 2>told him, you know, you're the only one and you're

1063
01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:12.400
<v Speaker 2>going to be our man.

1064
01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Piece is going to break out if you work.

1065
01:02:14.800 --> 01:02:22.360
<v Speaker 2>With us, right, uh, yeah, something like that. And he

1066
01:02:22.400 --> 01:02:25.920
<v Speaker 2>couldn't see that he was he was doing a treason

1067
01:02:25.960 --> 01:02:29.440
<v Speaker 2>this thing, right, But we caught him on intercept and

1068
01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:33.079
<v Speaker 2>we had to tell his secretary and that was not

1069
01:02:33.199 --> 01:02:38.719
<v Speaker 2>a pleasant thing. Yeah, But I It was another one

1070
01:02:38.719 --> 01:02:41.039
<v Speaker 2>of those instances that I thought, if I ever write

1071
01:02:41.079 --> 01:02:42.599
<v Speaker 2>a story, I'm going to stick this in there.

1072
01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, so while we're talking about that, this

1073
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:49.519
<v Speaker 1>is the uh the well. First off, tell us what's

1074
01:02:49.599 --> 01:02:54.760
<v Speaker 1>the title of the novel about the analysts that was

1075
01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:59.360
<v Speaker 1>you know that you fictionalized the the analysts dabbling in operations.

1076
01:02:59.400 --> 01:03:01.039
<v Speaker 1>What was the name of that book.

1077
01:03:01.599 --> 01:03:04.920
<v Speaker 2>That was my first spy novel. It is called Red Widow.

1078
01:03:05.199 --> 01:03:09.239
<v Speaker 2>Came out five years ago, I think, and there was

1079
01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:13.800
<v Speaker 2>a second book in the series, Read London, came out

1080
01:03:13.920 --> 01:03:17.039
<v Speaker 2>three years ago, and unfortunately those are the only two

1081
01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:19.679
<v Speaker 2>books in the series. We will not be getting any

1082
01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:24.480
<v Speaker 2>more read books. I'm very proud of the books. They

1083
01:03:24.519 --> 01:03:29.519
<v Speaker 2>did well critically, Like Red Widow was the New York

1084
01:03:29.559 --> 01:03:32.360
<v Speaker 2>Times book editors picked it as an editor's choice, and

1085
01:03:32.400 --> 01:03:36.239
<v Speaker 2>it was nominated by International Thriller Writers for Best Novel

1086
01:03:36.320 --> 01:03:38.920
<v Speaker 2>of the Year, and it got optioned a couple times,

1087
01:03:38.960 --> 01:03:44.400
<v Speaker 2>but it ended up not being picked up. And then

1088
01:03:44.440 --> 01:03:48.639
<v Speaker 2>I did a couple like novella length pieces for Amazon

1089
01:03:48.719 --> 01:03:52.880
<v Speaker 2>Original Stories. So one is Black Vault, and that is

1090
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:59.360
<v Speaker 2>actually a UFO story because you probably maybe had the

1091
01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:03.119
<v Speaker 2>same idea when the sixteen minutes piece came out about

1092
01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:06.320
<v Speaker 2>the Navy, you know, and everybody was talking about it,

1093
01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:07.840
<v Speaker 2>and I was like, Oh, here's going to be a

1094
01:04:07.840 --> 01:04:11.039
<v Speaker 2>congressional directive, which means every agency is going to be

1095
01:04:11.119 --> 01:04:14.000
<v Speaker 2>told to do a report or you know what your

1096
01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:17.280
<v Speaker 2>experience is, and I know exactly how the CIA one's

1097
01:04:17.320 --> 01:04:19.880
<v Speaker 2>going to go. So I wrote a story about that,

1098
01:04:20.039 --> 01:04:25.679
<v Speaker 2>and it's basically this case officer fifteen years ago. He

1099
01:04:25.960 --> 01:04:29.039
<v Speaker 2>has what seems to be like a close encounter with

1100
01:04:29.079 --> 01:04:32.679
<v Speaker 2>the UFO, and like an idiot, he insists on writing

1101
01:04:32.719 --> 01:04:35.599
<v Speaker 2>a cable about it, and he's told by his deepestation,

1102
01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:39.840
<v Speaker 2>don't do that. You're going to destroy your career. You're

1103
01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:41.880
<v Speaker 2>gonna make us look like idiots. They're going to think

1104
01:04:41.920 --> 01:04:45.000
<v Speaker 2>we're smoking something out here. But it falls through the

1105
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:48.039
<v Speaker 2>cracks and it gets released and it ruins his career.

1106
01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Fast forward fifteen years the sixty minutes piece comes out,

1107
01:04:53.519 --> 01:04:57.400
<v Speaker 2>the congressional directive comes through, So what a CIA do?

1108
01:04:57.519 --> 01:05:01.079
<v Speaker 2>It sets up a task force to write report, and

1109
01:05:01.199 --> 01:05:04.119
<v Speaker 2>he is assigned to the task force. He is six

1110
01:05:04.159 --> 01:05:07.800
<v Speaker 2>months away from retirement. He thinks somebody is yanking his

1111
01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:10.599
<v Speaker 2>chain and trying to get him to quit by putting

1112
01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:12.920
<v Speaker 2>him on this task force. And you know what these

1113
01:05:12.920 --> 01:05:16.079
<v Speaker 2>task forces are, it's dead wood. That's where you send

1114
01:05:16.079 --> 01:05:18.440
<v Speaker 2>the people who are not doing a liquor work anyway.

1115
01:05:18.480 --> 01:05:20.039
<v Speaker 2>You just don't want to look at them for a year.

1116
01:05:20.599 --> 01:05:23.280
<v Speaker 2>So it just gets filled up with all these useless,

1117
01:05:23.639 --> 01:05:27.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, slow horses characters. And he goes down there

1118
01:05:27.960 --> 01:05:30.920
<v Speaker 2>and he's just furious, and he ends up mouthing off

1119
01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:33.800
<v Speaker 2>to somebody, somebody who's high up who used to be

1120
01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:37.800
<v Speaker 2>a friend of his, and he says, you can't put

1121
01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:40.760
<v Speaker 2>people who know that the last thing you can do

1122
01:05:40.800 --> 01:05:44.519
<v Speaker 2>with CIA is fail. They're not going to write a

1123
01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:47.079
<v Speaker 2>truthful report. You've got to put young people on it

1124
01:05:47.360 --> 01:05:49.800
<v Speaker 2>who don't know to be afraid to fail yet. And

1125
01:05:49.880 --> 01:05:52.519
<v Speaker 2>so the guy does and they end up finding out

1126
01:05:52.559 --> 01:05:56.639
<v Speaker 2>what actually happened fifteen years ago, and they uncover this

1127
01:05:57.000 --> 01:06:00.960
<v Speaker 2>massive there was a massive mole problem. Minute blows the

1128
01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:05.000
<v Speaker 2>doors open that maybe there are aliens out there. So

1129
01:06:06.119 --> 01:06:09.360
<v Speaker 2>that's the story that it got picked up by for

1130
01:06:09.480 --> 01:06:14.679
<v Speaker 2>TV by AMC, and the producers of Breaking Bad and

1131
01:06:14.760 --> 01:06:18.079
<v Speaker 2>the producers of The Walking Dead are my producers on it.

1132
01:06:18.920 --> 01:06:22.119
<v Speaker 2>And right now we're looking for a star to attach

1133
01:06:22.159 --> 01:06:24.960
<v Speaker 2>to it. It has been. It was such a fun

1134
01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:28.800
<v Speaker 2>story to write, and the reaction from Hollywood has been

1135
01:06:28.960 --> 01:06:33.039
<v Speaker 2>very gratifying. I really like the story, so fingers crossed,

1136
01:06:33.119 --> 01:06:35.639
<v Speaker 2>we'll see something before too long.

1137
01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:37.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I'm glad to hear that that. You know,

1138
01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:41.000
<v Speaker 1>it got the attention after the two Spine novels. It

1139
01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:45.280
<v Speaker 1>sounded like they really resonated with people, but for whatever reason,

1140
01:06:45.320 --> 01:06:47.760
<v Speaker 1>didn't get you know, maybe the traction that you'd hoped for.

1141
01:06:49.000 --> 01:06:51.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, my experience with Hollywood has been interesting,

1142
01:06:52.480 --> 01:06:57.159
<v Speaker 2>Hollywood versus the books. Sorry, I'm looking at myself here,

1143
01:06:57.280 --> 01:07:03.000
<v Speaker 2>my hair looks terrible. Readers seem to like books that

1144
01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:08.480
<v Speaker 2>follow sort of a predictive, a familiar pattern, right, whereas

1145
01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:14.199
<v Speaker 2>Hollywood likes stories that are grounded, very truthful. So there's

1146
01:07:14.199 --> 01:07:18.159
<v Speaker 2>some of that, but it takes you beyond them. So Unfortunately,

1147
01:07:18.280 --> 01:07:22.000
<v Speaker 2>the read books because they're women protagonists and even the

1148
01:07:22.079 --> 01:07:26.039
<v Speaker 2>antagonist is usually a woman, it really is written from

1149
01:07:26.559 --> 01:07:29.960
<v Speaker 2>that point of view. But the readership of spine novels

1150
01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:33.480
<v Speaker 2>tends to be a male. It's one of the few

1151
01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:37.719
<v Speaker 2>categories in in fiction that is more male readers.

1152
01:07:38.159 --> 01:07:40.079
<v Speaker 1>Science is the only other one.

1153
01:07:40.840 --> 01:07:44.960
<v Speaker 2>Maybe, Yeah, And you know, they find that men tend

1154
01:07:44.960 --> 01:07:47.480
<v Speaker 2>to not want to read a story from a woman's

1155
01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:50.559
<v Speaker 2>point of view. So the main character, you know, like

1156
01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:53.440
<v Speaker 2>putting themselves in the head of a woman and seeing

1157
01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:55.800
<v Speaker 2>how she sees the world, and they tend not to

1158
01:07:55.840 --> 01:07:58.719
<v Speaker 2>want to read books by women too, So that that

1159
01:07:58.920 --> 01:08:02.000
<v Speaker 2>has been sort of a double whammy for the Red Books.

1160
01:08:02.679 --> 01:08:07.480
<v Speaker 2>But oddly enough, Hollywood loved the idea. Unfortunately, the movies

1161
01:08:07.519 --> 01:08:10.480
<v Speaker 2>from a woman's perspective tend to do as well either.

1162
01:08:11.159 --> 01:08:14.920
<v Speaker 2>So that's the lesson I took away from all that.

1163
01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:19.319
<v Speaker 1>So I'm surprised for one. I mean, I would rather

1164
01:08:19.359 --> 01:08:23.159
<v Speaker 1>watch a movie with Charlie's then than Gerard Butler or

1165
01:08:23.159 --> 01:08:26.560
<v Speaker 1>somebody just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

1166
01:08:27.399 --> 01:08:29.560
<v Speaker 2>I agree. I love The Atomic Blonde.

1167
01:08:29.800 --> 01:08:34.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and so the Havannah book, you have a working

1168
01:08:34.199 --> 01:08:34.880
<v Speaker 1>title for that.

1169
01:08:36.119 --> 01:08:37.199
<v Speaker 2>The Invisible Enemy.

1170
01:08:38.199 --> 01:08:41.520
<v Speaker 1>And so I've done a lot of like journalistic work

1171
01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:44.279
<v Speaker 1>on Havana syndrome, and I've had folks tell me, and

1172
01:08:44.319 --> 01:08:47.920
<v Speaker 1>this has been reported publicly now too, that it's suspected

1173
01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:51.920
<v Speaker 1>that the first Havana syndrome victim was actually an NSA

1174
01:08:52.079 --> 01:08:55.159
<v Speaker 1>employee in the nineteen nineties. I was wondering if you

1175
01:08:55.199 --> 01:08:57.640
<v Speaker 1>ever crossed paths with any of that back in those days.

1176
01:08:58.880 --> 01:09:03.239
<v Speaker 2>So here's a crazy story and it'll lead to the

1177
01:09:03.239 --> 01:09:10.760
<v Speaker 2>book I swear In two thousand, I was a National

1178
01:09:10.840 --> 01:09:13.800
<v Speaker 2>Colligence officer. At the time. I was supposed to go

1179
01:09:14.319 --> 01:09:16.920
<v Speaker 2>a participate in a war game for a friend of mine.

1180
01:09:17.039 --> 01:09:22.640
<v Speaker 2>I woke up and I had complete vertigo, spin, spin, spin,

1181
01:09:23.479 --> 01:09:28.000
<v Speaker 2>and the worst head pain of my life. I thought

1182
01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:34.079
<v Speaker 2>my skull was splitting open. This went on for nine months. Now.

1183
01:09:34.439 --> 01:09:37.479
<v Speaker 2>It didn't come out of the blue. There had been

1184
01:09:37.960 --> 01:09:41.680
<v Speaker 2>I'd had a couple of years of continuous problems with

1185
01:09:41.920 --> 01:09:44.880
<v Speaker 2>my head and pressures and ear and all that kind

1186
01:09:44.880 --> 01:09:47.640
<v Speaker 2>of stuff, But of course NSA didn't want to talk

1187
01:09:47.680 --> 01:09:51.479
<v Speaker 2>to me about it. If you had been in the

1188
01:09:51.479 --> 01:09:54.079
<v Speaker 2>building at the time, you would have thought there's got

1189
01:09:54.119 --> 01:09:56.840
<v Speaker 2>to be environmental issues here because the building was not

1190
01:09:56.960 --> 01:10:00.800
<v Speaker 2>kept up well. But the main thing was the roof.

1191
01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:04.239
<v Speaker 2>And this was I was always in the main headquarters building.

1192
01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:09.600
<v Speaker 2>The roof was completely covered with microwave antennas. The walls

1193
01:10:09.680 --> 01:10:13.960
<v Speaker 2>were riddled with cabling where transmissions are going around you

1194
01:10:14.119 --> 01:10:18.159
<v Speaker 2>and underfoot. You were just and occasionally you would get

1195
01:10:18.159 --> 01:10:22.159
<v Speaker 2>somebody else complaining of the same issues that their heads

1196
01:10:22.199 --> 01:10:26.279
<v Speaker 2>felt funny and whatever, but they would do nothing for you.

1197
01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:30.159
<v Speaker 2>So long story is short. I thought I was going

1198
01:10:30.199 --> 01:10:34.000
<v Speaker 2>to have to retire. We didn't know what it was.

1199
01:10:34.279 --> 01:10:37.239
<v Speaker 2>It took nine months to get to Hopkins. They have

1200
01:10:37.279 --> 01:10:43.479
<v Speaker 2>a special program, and they gave me a diagnosis and

1201
01:10:43.560 --> 01:10:46.680
<v Speaker 2>I stayed under their care for six years. To this day.

1202
01:10:46.800 --> 01:10:50.399
<v Speaker 2>I still take daily medicine to try to suppress a migraine.

1203
01:10:51.199 --> 01:10:52.800
<v Speaker 2>That's how it is, right.

1204
01:10:53.079 --> 01:10:55.720
<v Speaker 1>What was the diagnosis that Hopkins gave you for that?

1205
01:10:56.880 --> 01:11:01.119
<v Speaker 2>So twenty five years ago the I diagnosed this is

1206
01:11:01.159 --> 01:11:05.119
<v Speaker 2>this rare form of migraine called vestibular migraine where its

1207
01:11:05.119 --> 01:11:11.199
<v Speaker 2>actu vestibular system. So it was twenty twenty one. I

1208
01:11:11.319 --> 01:11:14.279
<v Speaker 2>think that I ran into Oh I should explain a

1209
01:11:14.319 --> 01:11:17.840
<v Speaker 2>few things. One is they got it under control enough

1210
01:11:18.479 --> 01:11:20.600
<v Speaker 2>so that by the time nine to eleven came around.

1211
01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:23.960
<v Speaker 2>I could just go from the frying pan into the fire.

1212
01:11:24.119 --> 01:11:25.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, I was in the office of the Secretary

1213
01:11:25.560 --> 01:11:26.640
<v Speaker 2>of Defense for the Iraq War.

1214
01:11:27.279 --> 01:11:27.479
<v Speaker 1>Right.

1215
01:11:27.600 --> 01:11:30.079
<v Speaker 2>If pressure was going to make my head erupt, that

1216
01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:32.800
<v Speaker 2>would have been it. I was literally working like sixteen

1217
01:11:32.840 --> 01:11:37.279
<v Speaker 2>hours days in commuting three so it didn't come back.

1218
01:11:38.279 --> 01:11:42.960
<v Speaker 2>I went back to NSA in twenty fourteen, and it

1219
01:11:43.079 --> 01:11:46.119
<v Speaker 2>wasn't until that day I thought, Ooh, I haven't had

1220
01:11:46.159 --> 01:11:49.920
<v Speaker 2>those problems since I left that building. I wonder if

1221
01:11:49.960 --> 01:11:51.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to have those problems if I have to

1222
01:11:51.520 --> 01:11:53.600
<v Speaker 2>go back to that building. Luckily I did not have

1223
01:11:53.640 --> 01:11:55.439
<v Speaker 2>to go back to that building. I ended up being

1224
01:11:55.479 --> 01:11:58.359
<v Speaker 2>in the out buildings. But also they cleaned up their act.

1225
01:11:58.359 --> 01:12:01.960
<v Speaker 2>There's not an army of microwave antenna's on the roof anymore,

1226
01:12:03.399 --> 01:12:06.880
<v Speaker 2>so didn't have any problems. Twenty twenty one, I think

1227
01:12:07.039 --> 01:12:09.520
<v Speaker 2>I was at a speaker at a conference when a

1228
01:12:09.600 --> 01:12:15.840
<v Speaker 2>Valerie Plames conferences, and she had Mark Polyoff I scrap name, Polly,

1229
01:12:16.760 --> 01:12:21.239
<v Speaker 2>thank you. He talked about his experiences with Havannah syndrome,

1230
01:12:22.079 --> 01:12:24.680
<v Speaker 2>and you could have knocked me over with a feather.

1231
01:12:25.359 --> 01:12:28.920
<v Speaker 2>It was exactly the same what he went through, the feelings,

1232
01:12:28.960 --> 01:12:34.399
<v Speaker 2>the headaches, that just crazy. When he finished, I sat

1233
01:12:34.479 --> 01:12:36.800
<v Speaker 2>down with him and I said, look, I'm not saying

1234
01:12:36.920 --> 01:12:39.079
<v Speaker 2>I had what you had. I'm not saying you had

1235
01:12:39.079 --> 01:12:44.560
<v Speaker 2>what I have, but this is weird, and he agreed

1236
01:12:44.720 --> 01:12:47.720
<v Speaker 2>it was weird. That's actually how the book that I

1237
01:12:47.760 --> 01:12:52.359
<v Speaker 2>worked on, The Invisible Enemy, came about because when Cia

1238
01:12:52.520 --> 01:12:56.039
<v Speaker 2>came out a little while after that with there they said,

1239
01:12:56.239 --> 01:13:00.880
<v Speaker 2>we don't believe it's a directed energy weapon. He contacted

1240
01:13:00.920 --> 01:13:03.039
<v Speaker 2>me and he said, you know, he was doing a

1241
01:13:03.079 --> 01:13:06.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of interviews at the time and telling them his

1242
01:13:06.119 --> 01:13:09.600
<v Speaker 2>experience and how he felt betrayed and that the agency,

1243
01:13:09.880 --> 01:13:13.399
<v Speaker 2>you know, was doing a disservice to his fellow officers

1244
01:13:13.399 --> 01:13:16.279
<v Speaker 2>who'd also been struck. And he said, we need to

1245
01:13:16.279 --> 01:13:18.760
<v Speaker 2>write a story about it. And he said, a story

1246
01:13:18.840 --> 01:13:22.199
<v Speaker 2>is not going to get what you want. You know,

1247
01:13:22.319 --> 01:13:24.479
<v Speaker 2>it's not going to do it any better than your nonfiction.

1248
01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:26.399
<v Speaker 2>He said, I don't care. I want a story. So

1249
01:13:26.560 --> 01:13:29.520
<v Speaker 2>that's why I ended up writing the story. At the time,

1250
01:13:30.199 --> 01:13:32.479
<v Speaker 2>I was doing a lot with Amazon, and I thought

1251
01:13:32.479 --> 01:13:35.920
<v Speaker 2>for sure they would publish it, and so I wrote

1252
01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:40.399
<v Speaker 2>it to a novella length and long story short. It

1253
01:13:40.399 --> 01:13:42.720
<v Speaker 2>took a year and a half to actually get them

1254
01:13:42.760 --> 01:13:45.920
<v Speaker 2>to give me a contract on it, and they wanted

1255
01:13:45.960 --> 01:13:48.000
<v Speaker 2>it a novel length by then, so I had to

1256
01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:50.720
<v Speaker 2>take extra time to write it. And in that time

1257
01:13:50.840 --> 01:13:54.880
<v Speaker 2>some of the more recent developments came out. But a

1258
01:13:54.880 --> 01:13:56.880
<v Speaker 2>couple of years ago I had a relapse. It was

1259
01:13:56.920 --> 01:14:00.840
<v Speaker 2>the first time, and Hopkins took me back and I

1260
01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:02.840
<v Speaker 2>was talking to one of the doctors in the special

1261
01:14:02.880 --> 01:14:04.720
<v Speaker 2>program and they said, you know, we've learned a lot

1262
01:14:04.760 --> 01:14:10.399
<v Speaker 2>about brains and heads since you were here before, and

1263
01:14:10.439 --> 01:14:14.439
<v Speaker 2>they were telling me that they think this condition is

1264
01:14:14.800 --> 01:14:17.800
<v Speaker 2>you have to it's like congenital you have, like a

1265
01:14:17.840 --> 01:14:21.960
<v Speaker 2>malformation or a deformity in your head that makes you

1266
01:14:22.079 --> 01:14:27.720
<v Speaker 2>more susceptible to these kinds of vestibular disturbances. And it

1267
01:14:27.880 --> 01:14:30.399
<v Speaker 2>just all clicked into place when they told me that, because,

1268
01:14:30.439 --> 01:14:33.640
<v Speaker 2>like I said, there were other people at NSA who

1269
01:14:34.439 --> 01:14:37.960
<v Speaker 2>had some of the same physical symptoms that I did.

1270
01:14:38.479 --> 01:14:40.600
<v Speaker 2>But NSA would always push back and say, well, why

1271
01:14:40.600 --> 01:14:43.239
<v Speaker 2>aren't the other people next to you having the same problems.

1272
01:14:43.239 --> 01:14:46.439
<v Speaker 2>It can't be real. I think it's a combination of

1273
01:14:48.279 --> 01:14:51.840
<v Speaker 2>the effect of the emanations and whether or not you

1274
01:14:51.920 --> 01:14:55.159
<v Speaker 2>have these congenital problems, whether or not you have malformations

1275
01:14:55.199 --> 01:14:56.640
<v Speaker 2>that predispose.

1276
01:14:56.079 --> 01:15:01.680
<v Speaker 1>You to you here's an interesting parallel. So most of

1277
01:15:01.720 --> 01:15:04.399
<v Speaker 1>the people out there have probably heard of Gulf War syndrome,

1278
01:15:04.720 --> 01:15:07.760
<v Speaker 1>which was also something that our government denied, you know,

1279
01:15:07.920 --> 01:15:10.600
<v Speaker 1>like agent Orange. And then it was Golf War syndrome

1280
01:15:10.840 --> 01:15:12.960
<v Speaker 1>that we had got Golf War veterans coming back and

1281
01:15:13.000 --> 01:15:18.119
<v Speaker 1>they were kind of like bedridden, depressive, like they were

1282
01:15:18.159 --> 01:15:22.159
<v Speaker 1>experiencing strange symptoms that no one could really explain why

1283
01:15:22.159 --> 01:15:25.079
<v Speaker 1>they were having them, and the government said it doesn't exist.

1284
01:15:25.359 --> 01:15:28.920
<v Speaker 1>There's actually some science out now, like credible science, showing

1285
01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:34.199
<v Speaker 1>that what happened was Saddam Hussein did not deploy chemical

1286
01:15:34.279 --> 01:15:37.560
<v Speaker 1>or biological weapons, but we did blow up some bunkers

1287
01:15:37.680 --> 01:15:40.159
<v Speaker 1>during the Golf War where those weapons were, so there

1288
01:15:40.159 --> 01:15:43.279
<v Speaker 1>were very low levels of some of that stuff in

1289
01:15:43.319 --> 01:15:46.920
<v Speaker 1>the air in certain places. And again, why did some

1290
01:15:47.000 --> 01:15:51.439
<v Speaker 1>people have gol syndrome and some don't. Well, they saw

1291
01:15:51.560 --> 01:15:54.920
<v Speaker 1>that it has to do with a genetic receptor that

1292
01:15:54.960 --> 01:15:58.039
<v Speaker 1>certain people have, not everyone has it, So some people

1293
01:15:58.039 --> 01:16:00.920
<v Speaker 1>are uniquely susceptible to those low lefs of like sarin

1294
01:16:01.000 --> 01:16:05.319
<v Speaker 1>gas that gives them these symptoms. So I think that

1295
01:16:05.720 --> 01:16:09.399
<v Speaker 1>you know what you're describing, exposure to microwaves, Why does

1296
01:16:09.439 --> 01:16:12.119
<v Speaker 1>it affect some people and not others? I think it

1297
01:16:12.159 --> 01:16:14.920
<v Speaker 1>makes a lot of sense. But then when we talk

1298
01:16:14.960 --> 01:16:18.199
<v Speaker 1>about actual Havana syndrome, now we're talking about a system

1299
01:16:18.199 --> 01:16:22.760
<v Speaker 1>that is weaponized and designed to hurt you. So I

1300
01:16:22.760 --> 01:16:25.720
<v Speaker 1>don't know if that would hold true when you start

1301
01:16:25.720 --> 01:16:28.279
<v Speaker 1>talking about people who are specifically targeted with the weapon.

1302
01:16:28.359 --> 01:16:31.079
<v Speaker 1>Probably at that point it doesn't matter, you know, what

1303
01:16:31.159 --> 01:16:33.840
<v Speaker 1>the genetic receptor is or the shape of your brain.

1304
01:16:34.439 --> 01:16:37.560
<v Speaker 1>Probably you're going to get you know, microwavety regardless.

1305
01:16:38.920 --> 01:16:41.199
<v Speaker 2>Possibly. But let me ask you about this because you've

1306
01:16:41.199 --> 01:16:46.039
<v Speaker 2>probably looked into this part more than I have. You know,

1307
01:16:46.119 --> 01:16:48.640
<v Speaker 2>if you think back to the fifties and sixties when

1308
01:16:48.720 --> 01:16:52.399
<v Speaker 2>the Russians were bombarding the US embassy, right, yeah, it

1309
01:16:52.640 --> 01:16:56.439
<v Speaker 2>wasn't It was a collection attempt, right, They were trying

1310
01:16:56.479 --> 01:17:00.880
<v Speaker 2>to collect information, and it was just pulsed microwave. That's

1311
01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:05.359
<v Speaker 2>just a band of the radio spectrum, radio frequency spectrum,

1312
01:17:05.960 --> 01:17:09.680
<v Speaker 2>and that's used for a lot of different technologies, not

1313
01:17:09.760 --> 01:17:12.399
<v Speaker 2>ones that most people run into every day, like radar

1314
01:17:12.479 --> 01:17:16.439
<v Speaker 2>systems or something like that. But it's there, and I know,

1315
01:17:16.600 --> 01:17:19.600
<v Speaker 2>of god, it must have been thirty years ago, seeing

1316
01:17:20.319 --> 01:17:23.520
<v Speaker 2>NESSA knew about these types of collection systems right where

1317
01:17:23.560 --> 01:17:28.399
<v Speaker 2>you collected the emanations and you could pull information out

1318
01:17:28.439 --> 01:17:30.680
<v Speaker 2>of them. So I do think in a lot of

1319
01:17:30.720 --> 01:17:34.119
<v Speaker 2>these cases, it's not that they're trying to intentionally hurt

1320
01:17:34.199 --> 01:17:38.520
<v Speaker 2>an individual, but they're aiming a collection device against them,

1321
01:17:39.039 --> 01:17:42.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, And this comes up in my story but now,

1322
01:17:42.960 --> 01:17:46.079
<v Speaker 2>of course, we are seeing the age of using these

1323
01:17:46.159 --> 01:17:53.199
<v Speaker 2>kind of disruptive technologies that the prohibition, the moral prohibition

1324
01:17:53.479 --> 01:17:57.800
<v Speaker 2>is off, and we're seeing more development of these kind

1325
01:17:57.840 --> 01:17:59.199
<v Speaker 2>of pulse weapon systems.

1326
01:18:00.800 --> 01:18:03.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know that some of the doctors I've spoken

1327
01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:09.039
<v Speaker 1>to they think that, And apparently the military is testing

1328
01:18:09.079 --> 01:18:12.800
<v Speaker 1>some captured device, so maybe they'll have better information. But

1329
01:18:13.920 --> 01:18:16.000
<v Speaker 1>the best, to the best of my knowledge, the theory

1330
01:18:16.199 --> 01:18:20.640
<v Speaker 1>is that it is pulsed microwaves. But when I say pulsed,

1331
01:18:20.680 --> 01:18:23.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean like hundreds of pulses a second, and that's

1332
01:18:23.880 --> 01:18:28.359
<v Speaker 1>creating some sort of like cumulative effect inside the human cranium.

1333
01:18:28.479 --> 01:18:32.279
<v Speaker 1>That that's the prevailing theory about how it works right now.

1334
01:18:32.319 --> 01:18:35.159
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, I certainly would not preclude that there

1335
01:18:35.159 --> 01:18:38.359
<v Speaker 1>are people that you know, the Moscow signal and others,

1336
01:18:38.399 --> 01:18:40.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, people who are harmed by uh, you know,

1337
01:18:41.159 --> 01:18:46.399
<v Speaker 1>attempts at collecting intelligence. But I would I would assert

1338
01:18:46.479 --> 01:18:48.800
<v Speaker 1>that there are quite a few people who are deliberately

1339
01:18:48.840 --> 01:18:50.960
<v Speaker 1>targeted with a weaponized version of this.

1340
01:18:53.479 --> 01:18:56.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean there's research programs now even in the

1341
01:18:56.479 --> 01:19:00.359
<v Speaker 2>United States, Yeah, that are looking at you know, what's

1342
01:19:00.359 --> 01:19:03.439
<v Speaker 2>his name, what's his name? The president when they did

1343
01:19:03.479 --> 01:19:06.800
<v Speaker 2>the Venezuela hit, right, he was talking about a disruptors.

1344
01:19:07.600 --> 01:19:12.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that's BS myself, the discombobulator ray, and

1345
01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:16.720
<v Speaker 1>then more recently in Iran we got the ghost murmur h.

1346
01:19:17.279 --> 01:19:19.880
<v Speaker 1>You know, we can read a heartbeat from ten kilometers

1347
01:19:20.159 --> 01:19:23.520
<v Speaker 1>like they're they're kind of like inflating themselves up. I

1348
01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:24.399
<v Speaker 1>think a little bit here.

1349
01:19:25.600 --> 01:19:28.319
<v Speaker 2>Well, I do think some of that technology, the descriptions

1350
01:19:28.319 --> 01:19:32.079
<v Speaker 2>are overblown, but that is some of the applications, at

1351
01:19:32.159 --> 01:19:35.439
<v Speaker 2>least in the research stage for these types of weapons,

1352
01:19:35.479 --> 01:19:38.840
<v Speaker 2>that you can use them to disrupt, you know, a

1353
01:19:38.880 --> 01:19:41.640
<v Speaker 2>computer system or something like that, or take down you know,

1354
01:19:41.680 --> 01:19:44.880
<v Speaker 2>in movies they always make EMPs is like this world

1355
01:19:45.039 --> 01:19:48.920
<v Speaker 2>ending thing, but actually in real life you can design

1356
01:19:48.960 --> 01:19:52.600
<v Speaker 2>EMP attacks, you know, that can be very localized, like

1357
01:19:52.680 --> 01:19:56.600
<v Speaker 2>against the room or against the campus. You know, it'll

1358
01:19:56.600 --> 01:20:00.039
<v Speaker 2>be less effective of course across the campus. But I

1359
01:20:00.039 --> 01:20:02.920
<v Speaker 2>I think you know, that's the class of the next

1360
01:20:02.960 --> 01:20:05.439
<v Speaker 2>generation non kinetic weapons we're talking about.

1361
01:20:05.840 --> 01:20:10.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, it's it's fascinating stuff. And your book is

1362
01:20:10.640 --> 01:20:13.479
<v Speaker 1>about a Is it a CIA officer that gets hit

1363
01:20:13.479 --> 01:20:14.359
<v Speaker 1>in Central Asia?

1364
01:20:16.159 --> 01:20:21.039
<v Speaker 2>Yes, he's he's in Baku. He's there meeting an asset.

1365
01:20:21.399 --> 01:20:25.600
<v Speaker 2>He runs into just by chance, an old adversary who

1366
01:20:25.840 --> 01:20:29.800
<v Speaker 2>a Russian who happens to be there. He does the

1367
01:20:29.800 --> 01:20:32.199
<v Speaker 2>best SDR of his life. He feels like he can

1368
01:20:32.199 --> 01:20:34.840
<v Speaker 2>go ahead and meet his asset. He comes back to

1369
01:20:34.880 --> 01:20:38.479
<v Speaker 2>the hotel, he knows there's a watcher on him downstairs,

1370
01:20:38.880 --> 01:20:41.279
<v Speaker 2>and then he's hit that night and doesn't know what

1371
01:20:41.439 --> 01:20:43.880
<v Speaker 2>hit him and it ruins his life.

1372
01:20:44.359 --> 01:20:48.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, that part is uh not fictional.

1373
01:20:49.359 --> 01:20:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sadly true. But then a White House staffer is

1374
01:20:55.720 --> 01:21:01.520
<v Speaker 2>hit in the parking garage are the White House, and

1375
01:21:01.800 --> 01:21:05.000
<v Speaker 2>it just insenses him. And the President at the time,

1376
01:21:05.079 --> 01:21:07.359
<v Speaker 2>of course, is talking about how the Russians are going

1377
01:21:07.439 --> 01:21:09.560
<v Speaker 2>to be our new best buddies, and so nothing is

1378
01:21:09.600 --> 01:21:12.479
<v Speaker 2>being done about this, and you know, everything at the

1379
01:21:12.520 --> 01:21:16.800
<v Speaker 2>agency about for himana syndrome is being smothered and he

1380
01:21:17.079 --> 01:21:20.640
<v Speaker 2>just is furious, and so he decides he's going to

1381
01:21:20.680 --> 01:21:22.079
<v Speaker 2>conduct his own investigation.

1382
01:21:23.199 --> 01:21:27.279
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, so they're going off book, yes, cool.

1383
01:21:27.359 --> 01:21:29.880
<v Speaker 2>So there's a lot of Mark in it, it's not

1384
01:21:29.960 --> 01:21:30.399
<v Speaker 2>all mark.

1385
01:21:31.479 --> 01:21:33.039
<v Speaker 1>When when is the book do out?

1386
01:21:34.199 --> 01:21:37.399
<v Speaker 2>It's going to be spring of next year, looking like March.

1387
01:21:37.600 --> 01:21:43.000
<v Speaker 4>At this point, as we get back to your story,

1388
01:21:43.880 --> 01:21:47.359
<v Speaker 4>where did we leave off going to work with S

1389
01:21:47.399 --> 01:21:47.640
<v Speaker 4>and T.

1390
01:21:49.840 --> 01:21:54.399
<v Speaker 2>Let's see what happened. I was the lead analyst for

1391
01:21:56.640 --> 01:22:01.000
<v Speaker 2>social media. I sold my first book in twenty ten,

1392
01:22:01.800 --> 01:22:04.800
<v Speaker 2>and in twenty eleven, when the book was coming out,

1393
01:22:05.039 --> 01:22:08.359
<v Speaker 2>CIA started giving me a lot of hassle. They were

1394
01:22:08.399 --> 01:22:10.800
<v Speaker 2>hassling me and the book has nothing to do with intelligence.

1395
01:22:10.840 --> 01:22:14.560
<v Speaker 2>It was like a fantasy book, right, And I told

1396
01:22:14.600 --> 01:22:17.560
<v Speaker 2>them there's no reason why you should need to review

1397
01:22:17.600 --> 01:22:20.079
<v Speaker 2>it or anything like that, and they didn't believe me.

1398
01:22:20.640 --> 01:22:23.720
<v Speaker 2>But then it came down to press being able to

1399
01:22:23.760 --> 01:22:26.680
<v Speaker 2>interact with the press, and my publisher at the time,

1400
01:22:26.800 --> 01:22:28.560
<v Speaker 2>Simon and Schuster, decided it was going to be a

1401
01:22:28.600 --> 01:22:31.239
<v Speaker 2>big book, so they were sending me on tour. And

1402
01:22:31.279 --> 01:22:33.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, you go to a festival and you sit

1403
01:22:33.840 --> 01:22:35.920
<v Speaker 2>in a tent, so any press person can come up

1404
01:22:35.920 --> 01:22:39.319
<v Speaker 2>to you and ask you questions. And CIA said, no,

1405
01:22:39.399 --> 01:22:42.079
<v Speaker 2>you have to give us four days to approve any

1406
01:22:42.119 --> 01:22:45.680
<v Speaker 2>contact with the press. You don't get the golden ticket

1407
01:22:45.680 --> 01:22:50.000
<v Speaker 2>and publishing every day. So I quit and I went

1408
01:22:50.000 --> 01:22:52.359
<v Speaker 2>to work for RAND for a few years, and then

1409
01:22:53.000 --> 01:22:55.920
<v Speaker 2>n Essay hired me back and I was working in

1410
01:22:55.920 --> 01:22:59.439
<v Speaker 2>science and technology. At that point. Did the office director

1411
01:22:59.479 --> 01:23:04.039
<v Speaker 2>thing them set up an office to do technology forecasting,

1412
01:23:04.039 --> 01:23:06.159
<v Speaker 2>which I had done at RAND and done for CIA

1413
01:23:06.239 --> 01:23:07.159
<v Speaker 2>as a contractor.

1414
01:23:07.920 --> 01:23:11.399
<v Speaker 1>It's unfortunate sometimes the way the CIA makes it difficult

1415
01:23:11.399 --> 01:23:15.039
<v Speaker 1>for employees to you know, be a human being. You know,

1416
01:23:15.079 --> 01:23:17.880
<v Speaker 1>I've heard all kinds of stories over the years about

1417
01:23:17.920 --> 01:23:22.399
<v Speaker 1>somebody who works at the CIA falls in love with

1418
01:23:22.439 --> 01:23:25.800
<v Speaker 1>a British citizen. They want to get married, and the CIA,

1419
01:23:25.960 --> 01:23:29.000
<v Speaker 1>even though it's a brit and there's not an intelligence

1420
01:23:29.039 --> 01:23:32.920
<v Speaker 1>threat there, they're like, no, you can't marry this person. Well,

1421
01:23:32.920 --> 01:23:35.119
<v Speaker 1>like they can actually put the kaibash on it, like

1422
01:23:35.159 --> 01:23:37.720
<v Speaker 1>that's wild.

1423
01:23:37.720 --> 01:23:40.279
<v Speaker 2>It is crazy, and I want to feel like they're

1424
01:23:40.319 --> 01:23:43.520
<v Speaker 2>getting better over time. I put NSA in a separate

1425
01:23:43.560 --> 01:23:48.439
<v Speaker 2>box because it is incredible management issues and always has. Now,

1426
01:23:48.720 --> 01:23:52.279
<v Speaker 2>my experience at CIA was different, right, Like I said,

1427
01:23:52.319 --> 01:23:55.720
<v Speaker 2>I came in as a mid careerst so maybe I

1428
01:23:55.760 --> 01:23:58.079
<v Speaker 2>didn't see the things that people who came up through

1429
01:23:58.159 --> 01:24:01.680
<v Speaker 2>the ranks would see. Or maybe it's just the comparison

1430
01:24:01.720 --> 01:24:05.359
<v Speaker 2>to NSA. But CIA didn't say it as bad. You

1431
01:24:05.520 --> 01:24:11.319
<v Speaker 2>just had to remember that it was. You know, they

1432
01:24:11.399 --> 01:24:14.239
<v Speaker 2>couldn't They could sometimes come up with the right answer.

1433
01:24:14.279 --> 01:24:16.000
<v Speaker 2>You just had to figure out a way to get

1434
01:24:16.000 --> 01:24:19.199
<v Speaker 2>them there, whereas at NSSAY a lot of times it

1435
01:24:19.239 --> 01:24:22.079
<v Speaker 2>was like a bad parent. There was just no way

1436
01:24:22.920 --> 01:24:28.199
<v Speaker 2>to get them to be reasonable. Yeah, so I don't

1437
01:24:28.239 --> 01:24:31.680
<v Speaker 2>doubt that some people have had very unreasonable experiences with CIA.

1438
01:24:32.239 --> 01:24:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean the four I don't think they would probably

1439
01:24:35.039 --> 01:24:37.960
<v Speaker 2>do that now to people. You got to remember too,

1440
01:24:38.000 --> 01:24:41.239
<v Speaker 2>this was right around the time that Mike go what's

1441
01:24:41.279 --> 01:24:45.439
<v Speaker 2>his name he wrote Imperial Rubris and he really pissed off. Yeah,

1442
01:24:45.520 --> 01:24:49.680
<v Speaker 2>the Bush administration and Cheney was furious, and he didn't

1443
01:24:49.720 --> 01:24:54.600
<v Speaker 2>want any more CIA people to get publishing contracts after that,

1444
01:24:55.119 --> 01:24:57.560
<v Speaker 2>and so they were really clamping down on everyone. And

1445
01:24:57.560 --> 01:24:59.560
<v Speaker 2>they couldn't really clamped on me because it was a

1446
01:24:59.560 --> 01:25:02.279
<v Speaker 2>fantasy book, right, so they needed some other way to

1447
01:25:02.279 --> 01:25:02.840
<v Speaker 2>control me.

1448
01:25:02.960 --> 01:25:08.079
<v Speaker 1>So funny, Yeah, I was I heard a gentleman speak.

1449
01:25:08.079 --> 01:25:11.319
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to speak out of turn, but he

1450
01:25:11.479 --> 01:25:14.880
<v Speaker 1>was a former CIA case officer and he was talking

1451
01:25:14.880 --> 01:25:18.840
<v Speaker 1>about he wrote a non fiction book about his experiences

1452
01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:22.800
<v Speaker 1>early in the Afghan Afghanistan war working with special forces

1453
01:25:23.039 --> 01:25:26.960
<v Speaker 1>and fighting out Kaeda, and this story or other people's

1454
01:25:27.000 --> 01:25:30.800
<v Speaker 1>similar stories has been written many times from the CIA perspective,

1455
01:25:30.840 --> 01:25:34.560
<v Speaker 1>the special forces perspective, and the CIA came back to him.

1456
01:25:34.560 --> 01:25:37.439
<v Speaker 1>They're like, now you can't publish this because we don't.

1457
01:25:37.479 --> 01:25:40.359
<v Speaker 1>We won't let you publish anything about CIA and Special

1458
01:25:40.399 --> 01:25:43.840
<v Speaker 1>Forces working together. And it's like they made a movie

1459
01:25:43.920 --> 01:25:46.479
<v Speaker 1>about I mean, well, what what what are we doing

1460
01:25:46.479 --> 01:25:50.640
<v Speaker 1>here and this? You know, it's probably about the current

1461
01:25:50.680 --> 01:25:54.279
<v Speaker 1>administration and the current political appointees at the agency are

1462
01:25:54.279 --> 01:25:55.439
<v Speaker 1>just like, we're not doing books.

1463
01:25:56.199 --> 01:25:58.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean it was very much in my space,

1464
01:25:58.960 --> 01:26:02.119
<v Speaker 2>like a pendulum switch, right, So when they were getting

1465
01:26:02.159 --> 01:26:05.560
<v Speaker 2>political pressure, they would really lamp down on things. Other

1466
01:26:05.680 --> 01:26:07.800
<v Speaker 2>times they could be very reasonable. I mean when I

1467
01:26:07.920 --> 01:26:11.640
<v Speaker 2>started vetting books through them, which was in the mid

1468
01:26:11.680 --> 01:26:14.560
<v Speaker 2>two thousands, you know, they would not let you use

1469
01:26:14.600 --> 01:26:18.279
<v Speaker 2>the expression chief of station in a book, even though

1470
01:26:18.319 --> 01:26:20.800
<v Speaker 2>of course it had been published and was in movies

1471
01:26:20.840 --> 01:26:24.800
<v Speaker 2>and all this stuff. And their argument back to you was, well,

1472
01:26:25.079 --> 01:26:28.439
<v Speaker 2>you're you know, you work here, so you're validating this.

1473
01:26:29.600 --> 01:26:31.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, now they'll let you use chief of station.

1474
01:26:32.079 --> 01:26:34.439
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's I think they do. I'm trying to

1475
01:26:35.319 --> 01:26:37.880
<v Speaker 2>know to me, but I imagine if you're in the building,

1476
01:26:37.880 --> 01:26:38.520
<v Speaker 2>they would.

1477
01:26:38.800 --> 01:26:44.239
<v Speaker 1>Some of my favorites. Oddly enough, they would let guys

1478
01:26:44.399 --> 01:26:48.640
<v Speaker 1>use the term special forces, but not the term special operations.

1479
01:26:52.039 --> 01:26:54.640
<v Speaker 1>One of my favorites. I spoke to this gentleman many

1480
01:26:54.720 --> 01:26:57.359
<v Speaker 1>years ago. Now I should try to go and find him.

1481
01:26:57.920 --> 01:27:00.640
<v Speaker 1>He wrote a book, put it through the PRB, and

1482
01:27:00.680 --> 01:27:04.840
<v Speaker 1>there's a scene I believe it's a memoir. He goes

1483
01:27:04.840 --> 01:27:07.880
<v Speaker 1>and meets with his source at night in a field

1484
01:27:07.960 --> 01:27:10.920
<v Speaker 1>and he says, the field has a bunch of rocks,

1485
01:27:10.920 --> 01:27:14.960
<v Speaker 1>football sized rocks in the field where he meets his asset.

1486
01:27:16.039 --> 01:27:18.680
<v Speaker 1>And the CIA is like, now, you can't say that

1487
01:27:18.840 --> 01:27:21.760
<v Speaker 1>because it could identify, you know, what field that you

1488
01:27:21.840 --> 01:27:24.159
<v Speaker 1>met the person in. And he had to have his

1489
01:27:24.239 --> 01:27:27.079
<v Speaker 1>lawyer go back and forth with the CIA people and

1490
01:27:27.119 --> 01:27:30.520
<v Speaker 1>like they confabulated with themselves and came back and they're like, okay,

1491
01:27:30.520 --> 01:27:32.319
<v Speaker 1>we'll give you rocks. You can have rocks.

1492
01:27:33.760 --> 01:27:36.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. You know, you hear those kinds of stories and

1493
01:27:36.239 --> 01:27:39.199
<v Speaker 2>you think it's run by crazy people, But you know,

1494
01:27:39.359 --> 01:27:43.479
<v Speaker 2>part of it sometimes depends on the situation, just the

1495
01:27:43.479 --> 01:27:48.880
<v Speaker 2>threat of the legal you know, problems they think might

1496
01:27:48.920 --> 01:27:49.720
<v Speaker 2>deter you, or.

1497
01:27:49.760 --> 01:27:52.239
<v Speaker 1>Just exactly that's exactly what it is. It's the same

1498
01:27:52.279 --> 01:27:55.039
<v Speaker 1>with the family members and everything else. The CIA is

1499
01:27:55.079 --> 01:27:57.640
<v Speaker 1>not going to press charges. And can you imagine the

1500
01:27:57.680 --> 01:28:01.039
<v Speaker 1>discovery on some of these cases, like it's never ever

1501
01:28:01.119 --> 01:28:01.760
<v Speaker 1>going to happen.

1502
01:28:03.399 --> 01:28:06.439
<v Speaker 2>I have a friend who's a talking head on the

1503
01:28:06.479 --> 01:28:09.720
<v Speaker 2>news and stuff a lot. We were both interns together

1504
01:28:10.000 --> 01:28:14.239
<v Speaker 2>at NSA many many years ago, and we've stayed friends.

1505
01:28:14.439 --> 01:28:17.600
<v Speaker 2>As a matter of fact, I fictionalized him for a

1506
01:28:17.720 --> 01:28:22.520
<v Speaker 2>character in Red Widow, and you know, so I was

1507
01:28:22.560 --> 01:28:25.039
<v Speaker 2>asking him at one point, what do you do? You know,

1508
01:28:25.560 --> 01:28:28.119
<v Speaker 2>sometimes I'll get these questions and I don't feel comfortable,

1509
01:28:28.399 --> 01:28:30.319
<v Speaker 2>just you know, I don't need to go and tell

1510
01:28:30.439 --> 01:28:32.960
<v Speaker 2>NSA in advance or CIA in advance, I'm going to

1511
01:28:32.960 --> 01:28:34.920
<v Speaker 2>be talking about this. And he said, you know, I

1512
01:28:35.000 --> 01:28:37.079
<v Speaker 2>used to worry about that, but I don't anymore. They

1513
01:28:37.079 --> 01:28:42.159
<v Speaker 2>can just catch me and they never have got back

1514
01:28:42.199 --> 01:28:44.720
<v Speaker 2>to him. Can you imagine they can't keep an eye

1515
01:28:44.720 --> 01:28:45.399
<v Speaker 2>on all of us?

1516
01:28:46.199 --> 01:28:50.399
<v Speaker 1>The only thing? And this is reasonable. I understand they

1517
01:28:50.399 --> 01:28:53.840
<v Speaker 1>get pissy when you start naming names people who are

1518
01:28:53.880 --> 01:28:56.399
<v Speaker 1>still under a cover. Certainly you don't want to be

1519
01:28:56.439 --> 01:28:59.760
<v Speaker 1>talking about sources and assets and that kind of stuff,

1520
01:29:00.319 --> 01:29:03.279
<v Speaker 1>and I get that. I understand that. But there's a

1521
01:29:03.279 --> 01:29:05.960
<v Speaker 1>lot of other stuff, anecdotal stories that can be told

1522
01:29:06.039 --> 01:29:09.960
<v Speaker 1>in more vague terms, and sometimes it's funny what they

1523
01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:13.039
<v Speaker 1>won't let you say, yeah.

1524
01:29:12.800 --> 01:29:15.039
<v Speaker 2>Well, maybe I shouldn't have admitted this, maybe somebody will

1525
01:29:15.079 --> 01:29:17.720
<v Speaker 2>be watching. But I generally don't go back to them

1526
01:29:17.760 --> 01:29:19.399
<v Speaker 2>for anything. But mostly what.

1527
01:29:19.479 --> 01:29:22.479
<v Speaker 1>I'm asking you also learned over time, like what you

1528
01:29:22.520 --> 01:29:24.600
<v Speaker 1>would need to and whatnot. Yeah.

1529
01:29:24.880 --> 01:29:27.640
<v Speaker 2>Right, And I'll tell you what was really helpful in

1530
01:29:27.680 --> 01:29:30.840
<v Speaker 2>that is working and recruiting because you would be going

1531
01:29:30.840 --> 01:29:34.239
<v Speaker 2>out and you're speaking at comies constantly, and you really

1532
01:29:34.319 --> 01:29:37.479
<v Speaker 2>have a sense of what's allowable to and what people need.

1533
01:29:37.279 --> 01:29:39.399
<v Speaker 1>To hear, and the kids are asking you questions all

1534
01:29:39.439 --> 01:29:39.760
<v Speaker 1>the time.

1535
01:29:40.920 --> 01:29:44.439
<v Speaker 2>You stay away from sources and methods. And mostly because

1536
01:29:44.439 --> 01:29:47.479
<v Speaker 2>the last part of my career was in technology, I

1537
01:29:47.600 --> 01:29:51.079
<v Speaker 2>ended up talking a lot about you know, how technology

1538
01:29:51.159 --> 01:29:53.640
<v Speaker 2>is used in intelligence, et cetera, et cetera, and you

1539
01:29:53.680 --> 01:29:56.119
<v Speaker 2>know it's all it's all open source information.

1540
01:29:58.880 --> 01:30:02.800
<v Speaker 1>Uh, And so I mean that's really interesting. I didn't

1541
01:30:02.840 --> 01:30:04.840
<v Speaker 1>know that you retired from the government so that you

1542
01:30:04.840 --> 01:30:06.479
<v Speaker 1>could become a writer. That's awesome.

1543
01:30:08.840 --> 01:30:11.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was not maybe the best decision of my life,

1544
01:30:11.680 --> 01:30:11.960
<v Speaker 2>but I.

1545
01:30:11.960 --> 01:30:17.079
<v Speaker 1>Was so mad. Well, you you did your thirty five years.

1546
01:30:17.119 --> 01:30:19.079
<v Speaker 1>I think that's great, and you were ready to transition

1547
01:30:19.199 --> 01:30:22.600
<v Speaker 1>into something new and you know, it sounds like the

1548
01:30:22.680 --> 01:30:26.880
<v Speaker 1>time was right. So you started off in fantasy novels

1549
01:30:27.560 --> 01:30:31.680
<v Speaker 1>and uh, there's and then later the spy novels. I mean,

1550
01:30:31.720 --> 01:30:33.600
<v Speaker 1>what are the other ones? I mean, is it you know,

1551
01:30:33.720 --> 01:30:35.560
<v Speaker 1>you do some saucy romances.

1552
01:30:37.880 --> 01:30:41.079
<v Speaker 2>I'm not good at saucy romances. But the so the

1553
01:30:41.119 --> 01:30:44.840
<v Speaker 2>fantasy novels came at a time when those kinds of

1554
01:30:44.840 --> 01:30:49.439
<v Speaker 2>books were very popular. Well, no, not Harry Potter, more

1555
01:30:49.560 --> 01:30:52.279
<v Speaker 2>like I hate to say it, but like Twilight. Okay,

1556
01:30:52.520 --> 01:30:58.199
<v Speaker 2>so these dark, you know, kind of tempestuous romances. But

1557
01:30:58.279 --> 01:31:01.279
<v Speaker 2>I did not write why yeah, and I did not

1558
01:31:01.359 --> 01:31:05.479
<v Speaker 2>write romances. They were very dark. And also it took

1559
01:31:05.479 --> 01:31:07.319
<v Speaker 2>me ten years to write it. So by the time

1560
01:31:07.359 --> 01:31:09.359
<v Speaker 2>I got it to the point where it was saleable,

1561
01:31:11.279 --> 01:31:15.439
<v Speaker 2>that genre was kind of on the downhill slide. So

1562
01:31:15.680 --> 01:31:19.039
<v Speaker 2>by the time the third book came out, the market

1563
01:31:19.079 --> 01:31:23.880
<v Speaker 2>had really fallen away. And so at that time my

1564
01:31:24.000 --> 01:31:27.039
<v Speaker 2>agent came to me he had actually been approached by

1565
01:31:27.960 --> 01:31:32.439
<v Speaker 2>these people who needed a writer. Now, normally this is

1566
01:31:32.439 --> 01:31:34.680
<v Speaker 2>what we call work for hire. If you're a writer

1567
01:31:34.760 --> 01:31:38.720
<v Speaker 2>and you're hired to do an idea, companies called book

1568
01:31:38.760 --> 01:31:41.880
<v Speaker 2>packagers will come up with the idea. They'll put the

1569
01:31:41.920 --> 01:31:45.199
<v Speaker 2>deal together. They'll hire a writer. And this company was

1570
01:31:45.439 --> 01:31:48.840
<v Speaker 2>very successful with their film rights. They hadn't been around

1571
01:31:48.960 --> 01:31:52.560
<v Speaker 2>very long, but like ninety percent of their books got

1572
01:31:52.560 --> 01:31:55.399
<v Speaker 2>the film rights option. And I was having a really

1573
01:31:55.479 --> 01:31:57.920
<v Speaker 2>hard time making that jump. So I said, I tell

1574
01:31:57.920 --> 01:31:59.960
<v Speaker 2>you what, all this was going to be their first

1575
01:32:00.199 --> 01:32:02.800
<v Speaker 2>adult book. They only had done young adult up till then.

1576
01:32:03.239 --> 01:32:06.399
<v Speaker 2>I said, we'll be partners. I am not work for hire,

1577
01:32:06.560 --> 01:32:09.800
<v Speaker 2>but if we go partners on this, I'll give it

1578
01:32:09.840 --> 01:32:13.720
<v Speaker 2>a shot. So that first book was The Hunger, which

1579
01:32:13.800 --> 01:32:18.439
<v Speaker 2>is considered horror, but really it's more mainstream fiction. It's

1580
01:32:18.479 --> 01:32:21.640
<v Speaker 2>a reimagining of the story of the Donner Party with

1581
01:32:22.199 --> 01:32:26.119
<v Speaker 2>just this little twist what if there was something following

1582
01:32:26.159 --> 01:32:29.840
<v Speaker 2>the Donner Party. That is my most successful book ever.

1583
01:32:29.960 --> 01:32:32.279
<v Speaker 2>It has sold hundreds of thousands of copies. It was

1584
01:32:32.319 --> 01:32:36.319
<v Speaker 2>translated in twenty languages. Ridley Scott optioned the film rights.

1585
01:32:36.359 --> 01:32:41.359
<v Speaker 2>He's about to option him again. It was very, very

1586
01:32:41.439 --> 01:32:45.279
<v Speaker 2>lucky with that book. So then I wrote two more

1587
01:32:45.399 --> 01:32:51.119
<v Speaker 2>historical horror novels and got the opportunity to do the

1588
01:32:51.159 --> 01:32:56.319
<v Speaker 2>spy novels. They kind of inner wove like that, and

1589
01:32:56.920 --> 01:33:00.960
<v Speaker 2>now I'm probably known for the horror novels more. Yeah,

1590
01:33:01.359 --> 01:33:03.560
<v Speaker 2>the next one that's coming out is a horror novel.

1591
01:33:03.600 --> 01:33:08.960
<v Speaker 2>It's Incarnate, but it's actually sort of based on how

1592
01:33:09.000 --> 01:33:12.039
<v Speaker 2>I view technology now. It's about technology, it's about social

1593
01:33:12.079 --> 01:33:16.479
<v Speaker 2>media and deep faith. Yeah, and it's going to be

1594
01:33:16.479 --> 01:33:17.760
<v Speaker 2>interesting promoting that one.

1595
01:33:18.960 --> 01:33:21.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, No, I mean that is like, that's definitely

1596
01:33:21.760 --> 01:33:24.239
<v Speaker 1>the modern horror novel, right, it kind of has to

1597
01:33:24.279 --> 01:33:25.279
<v Speaker 1>be about that almost.

1598
01:33:25.960 --> 01:33:28.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I went to Hollywood to talk to some of

1599
01:33:28.760 --> 01:33:32.119
<v Speaker 2>the producers I deal with and asked them. I said,

1600
01:33:32.119 --> 01:33:36.560
<v Speaker 2>I can't imagine that you're really interested in like artificial

1601
01:33:36.600 --> 01:33:40.000
<v Speaker 2>intelligence horror and they said, no, we're really getting slammed

1602
01:33:40.520 --> 01:33:43.600
<v Speaker 2>with kind of the same pitch over and over again.

1603
01:33:43.960 --> 01:33:46.199
<v Speaker 2>So we're just about to go out with this book

1604
01:33:46.800 --> 01:33:49.720
<v Speaker 2>to pitch it to studios. Incarnate. I'll let you know,

1605
01:33:50.039 --> 01:33:52.800
<v Speaker 2>it's not quite what you think the book's going to

1606
01:33:52.880 --> 01:33:58.119
<v Speaker 2>be about, but it is about influencers and what we

1607
01:33:58.279 --> 01:34:01.760
<v Speaker 2>used to call fake personas avatars. Cool, you know how

1608
01:34:01.840 --> 01:34:05.039
<v Speaker 2>you can now now it's you know, in the news constantly.

1609
01:34:05.800 --> 01:34:07.600
<v Speaker 2>As a matter of fact, I just did a Substack

1610
01:34:07.800 --> 01:34:12.960
<v Speaker 2>newsletter on this, But you know, fake influencers and how

1611
01:34:13.039 --> 01:34:15.520
<v Speaker 2>it's that's going to be the norm pretty soon.

1612
01:34:15.720 --> 01:34:19.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, no, that's a very topical subject.

1613
01:34:20.880 --> 01:34:21.399
<v Speaker 2>Let's hope.

1614
01:34:23.000 --> 01:34:24.800
<v Speaker 1>And so is this what you do full time? Now?

1615
01:34:24.840 --> 01:34:25.920
<v Speaker 1>You're full time writer.

1616
01:34:27.279 --> 01:34:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Full time writer, and trying to get the media side

1617
01:34:30.640 --> 01:34:35.920
<v Speaker 2>of things up. So we have about four or five

1618
01:34:36.039 --> 01:34:39.800
<v Speaker 2>projects in development right now. And like screen port, I

1619
01:34:39.840 --> 01:34:46.119
<v Speaker 2>knew nothing. I'm sorry, what like screenplays? And yeah, I

1620
01:34:46.159 --> 01:34:49.119
<v Speaker 2>don't write I don't write screenplays. They don't like novelists

1621
01:34:49.159 --> 01:34:52.399
<v Speaker 2>to be anywhere near a script. Apparently you really have

1622
01:34:52.439 --> 01:34:55.479
<v Speaker 2>to convince them that you can do it. So I'm

1623
01:34:55.479 --> 01:34:59.359
<v Speaker 2>going to be working on a script. But usually we

1624
01:34:59.399 --> 01:35:01.720
<v Speaker 2>try to get the as a producer of some kind.

1625
01:35:01.880 --> 01:35:04.439
<v Speaker 2>So I'm trying to learn the business. It's tough. It's

1626
01:35:04.520 --> 01:35:06.399
<v Speaker 2>really tough to get something made these days.

1627
01:35:06.760 --> 01:35:11.399
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I mean this has been super cool. Is

1628
01:35:11.399 --> 01:35:13.720
<v Speaker 1>there anything else that I haven't asked or anything else

1629
01:35:13.720 --> 01:35:16.439
<v Speaker 1>you'd like to talk about?

1630
01:35:17.560 --> 01:35:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Not really, I guess I could bitch.

1631
01:35:20.000 --> 01:35:24.680
<v Speaker 1>But uh, but airing the grievances.

1632
01:35:24.840 --> 01:35:27.560
<v Speaker 2>The airing of the grievances, I guess the one thing.

1633
01:35:28.199 --> 01:35:30.439
<v Speaker 2>You know, you've heard me talk and maybe some people

1634
01:35:30.640 --> 01:35:33.000
<v Speaker 2>just don't believe I did all these crazy things that

1635
01:35:33.079 --> 01:35:37.199
<v Speaker 2>I did over my career I did, believing no one's

1636
01:35:37.239 --> 01:35:41.600
<v Speaker 2>more amazed than me, especially the technical stuff, which was

1637
01:35:41.680 --> 01:35:46.880
<v Speaker 2>so rewarding. But it's very frustrating trying to get people

1638
01:35:47.680 --> 01:35:49.920
<v Speaker 2>to pay attention to you when you're a woman and

1639
01:35:49.960 --> 01:35:53.880
<v Speaker 2>you're old. You know, I've also been a critic. I

1640
01:35:53.960 --> 01:35:56.159
<v Speaker 2>was a book reviewer for the Washington Post. I have

1641
01:35:56.239 --> 01:35:59.520
<v Speaker 2>a master's degree in fiction. I'm an analyst, so I'm

1642
01:35:59.600 --> 01:36:04.399
<v Speaker 2>highly analytical when it comes to evaluating things. And I

1643
01:36:04.520 --> 01:36:06.600
<v Speaker 2>know my writing's good. I mean, I won a bunch

1644
01:36:06.600 --> 01:36:12.359
<v Speaker 2>of awards too. I end up. You know, it comes

1645
01:36:12.439 --> 01:36:16.199
<v Speaker 2>down to our society especially, but many societies around the

1646
01:36:16.199 --> 01:36:19.319
<v Speaker 2>world do not value women, and they especially do not

1647
01:36:19.560 --> 01:36:22.960
<v Speaker 2>value older women. But I do think I have interesting

1648
01:36:23.000 --> 01:36:25.439
<v Speaker 2>things to say and that I could say them in

1649
01:36:25.640 --> 01:36:28.800
<v Speaker 2>very interesting ways, and Hollywood agrees. I'd just like to

1650
01:36:28.840 --> 01:36:30.720
<v Speaker 2>get more readers to give me a troney.

1651
01:36:31.840 --> 01:36:34.760
<v Speaker 1>You know, if you need a pen name, you know,

1652
01:36:34.920 --> 01:36:37.439
<v Speaker 1>you feel free to use Jack Murphy and see if

1653
01:36:37.479 --> 01:36:40.640
<v Speaker 1>that gets you some traction. It hasn't worked out so

1654
01:36:40.720 --> 01:36:42.920
<v Speaker 1>great for me at all times, but you know, maybe

1655
01:36:42.960 --> 01:36:44.399
<v Speaker 1>you have better luck. You never know.

1656
01:36:45.079 --> 01:36:50.920
<v Speaker 2>I'll keep that in mind, Thank you, Yo, No, I.

1657
01:36:51.399 --> 01:36:53.359
<v Speaker 1>Can see that for sure. That's got to be very

1658
01:36:53.399 --> 01:36:59.279
<v Speaker 1>frustrating that I don't know it's a novel. It's like,

1659
01:36:59.560 --> 01:37:03.199
<v Speaker 1>why would why would I necessarily even care if it's

1660
01:37:03.239 --> 01:37:05.439
<v Speaker 1>a man or a woman writing it? I mean, I

1661
01:37:05.439 --> 01:37:07.239
<v Speaker 1>think the only time that it would make a difference

1662
01:37:07.279 --> 01:37:11.199
<v Speaker 1>is there's certain types of like literary genres where you know,

1663
01:37:11.359 --> 01:37:14.359
<v Speaker 1>if it's the female author talking about you know, how

1664
01:37:14.359 --> 01:37:16.760
<v Speaker 1>she has her hair highlighted and her nails done, like,

1665
01:37:17.439 --> 01:37:20.039
<v Speaker 1>I only have so much patience for that. But it's

1666
01:37:20.159 --> 01:37:24.319
<v Speaker 1>a woman writing a spy novel or political thriller, it's

1667
01:37:24.399 --> 01:37:25.920
<v Speaker 1>kind of who cares? You know?

1668
01:37:27.000 --> 01:37:29.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, I'm glad to hear that. I know

1669
01:37:29.600 --> 01:37:32.319
<v Speaker 2>there are men like you out there that are more

1670
01:37:32.359 --> 01:37:35.000
<v Speaker 2>open minded or maybe don't even give it a thought.

1671
01:37:35.199 --> 01:37:37.479
<v Speaker 2>But you'd be surprised how many times I'll be doing

1672
01:37:37.520 --> 01:37:40.840
<v Speaker 2>a book event or something and some white haired man

1673
01:37:40.880 --> 01:37:43.720
<v Speaker 2>will come up to me and kind of imply that

1674
01:37:43.800 --> 01:37:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I should be writing romance novels or children's books. You

1675
01:37:48.039 --> 01:37:50.600
<v Speaker 2>know that what makes me think I can write an

1676
01:37:50.600 --> 01:37:54.239
<v Speaker 2>adult book? And it's all I can do to not

1677
01:37:54.359 --> 01:37:55.399
<v Speaker 2>just slap the shit.

1678
01:37:57.800 --> 01:37:58.720
<v Speaker 1>You're a little missy.

1679
01:38:00.600 --> 01:38:01.640
<v Speaker 2>Really, it's just.

1680
01:38:01.640 --> 01:38:07.600
<v Speaker 1>Like, h where can people go to find you do

1681
01:38:07.640 --> 01:38:09.880
<v Speaker 1>you have a website. I think you mentioned a substack.

1682
01:38:11.119 --> 01:38:15.600
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the subset took over my newsletter because it just

1683
01:38:15.640 --> 01:38:17.720
<v Speaker 2>it's such a great platform for that sort of thing.

1684
01:38:17.840 --> 01:38:20.800
<v Speaker 2>So you can find me at Alma Katsu my name

1685
01:38:20.960 --> 01:38:24.800
<v Speaker 2>and books Almacatsu books dot com, or just look for

1686
01:38:24.880 --> 01:38:28.680
<v Speaker 2>me on substack. I would love it if your listeners

1687
01:38:28.880 --> 01:38:35.880
<v Speaker 2>would subscribe. I kind of rotate between writing about writing,

1688
01:38:36.039 --> 01:38:38.560
<v Speaker 2>like the craft of writing, or talking about the business

1689
01:38:38.600 --> 01:38:41.159
<v Speaker 2>of writing for those who want to break into writing.

1690
01:38:41.760 --> 01:38:45.600
<v Speaker 2>I write occasionally about technology. I have a whole series

1691
01:38:45.640 --> 01:38:48.880
<v Speaker 2>on jen Ai. Hey, I spoke at MIT. I know

1692
01:38:48.960 --> 01:38:52.560
<v Speaker 2>what I'm talking about. And then I also just kind

1693
01:38:52.560 --> 01:38:54.840
<v Speaker 2>of give personal things because some people like to hear

1694
01:38:54.880 --> 01:38:56.279
<v Speaker 2>about my crazy life.

1695
01:38:57.800 --> 01:39:00.600
<v Speaker 1>And will have some links down the description for folks

1696
01:39:00.680 --> 01:39:03.479
<v Speaker 1>that can go subscribe to the sub stack check all

1697
01:39:03.560 --> 01:39:06.960
<v Speaker 1>that out. And I believe we have a viewer question

1698
01:39:07.119 --> 01:39:07.880
<v Speaker 1>for you, Alma.

1699
01:39:08.960 --> 01:39:13.079
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we have multiple actually from Alexander. He asked, what's

1700
01:39:13.119 --> 01:39:16.159
<v Speaker 3>the best slash worst part of working for the NSA

1701
01:39:16.279 --> 01:39:17.680
<v Speaker 3>and CIA, respectively.

1702
01:39:20.199 --> 01:39:25.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, the worst part of working at NSA, which you

1703
01:39:25.239 --> 01:39:28.039
<v Speaker 2>got to understand, you know, I grew up there, right,

1704
01:39:28.239 --> 01:39:29.880
<v Speaker 2>so as a matter of fact, when I left the

1705
01:39:29.920 --> 01:39:33.920
<v Speaker 2>first time and I did my exit interview. The woman

1706
01:39:33.960 --> 01:39:38.079
<v Speaker 2>who interviewed me had also been a second National Intelligence officer,

1707
01:39:38.239 --> 01:39:40.479
<v Speaker 2>and she said to me, ohma, why do you think

1708
01:39:40.520 --> 01:39:45.039
<v Speaker 2>it's going to be any better at CIA? And I said, Maureen,

1709
01:39:45.720 --> 01:39:50.000
<v Speaker 2>it's like this, This is like my first marriage, and

1710
01:39:50.199 --> 01:39:54.119
<v Speaker 2>NSA broke my heart. I'm going into my second marriage

1711
01:39:54.159 --> 01:40:01.720
<v Speaker 2>a little wiser, so NSA is. It's real, really misogynistic,

1712
01:40:02.239 --> 01:40:05.000
<v Speaker 2>even to this day. I mean the stories I could

1713
01:40:05.000 --> 01:40:07.560
<v Speaker 2>tell you from my last three years, and I was

1714
01:40:07.640 --> 01:40:10.640
<v Speaker 2>fairly senior at that point, and still the way I

1715
01:40:10.680 --> 01:40:13.199
<v Speaker 2>saw them, the way they treat women, and how it's

1716
01:40:13.279 --> 01:40:18.000
<v Speaker 2>baked into the culture, which is terrible because, especially as

1717
01:40:18.039 --> 01:40:21.880
<v Speaker 2>you move more and more into emerging technologies, new technologies,

1718
01:40:22.279 --> 01:40:24.880
<v Speaker 2>you need every brain you can get your hands on.

1719
01:40:25.239 --> 01:40:30.560
<v Speaker 2>You cannot afford to put, you know, a whole class

1720
01:40:30.560 --> 01:40:33.920
<v Speaker 2>of people off to the side and not value their input.

1721
01:40:34.079 --> 01:40:37.279
<v Speaker 2>You need them. So that was the worst thing. The

1722
01:40:37.319 --> 01:40:41.319
<v Speaker 2>best thing. I don't know. They had good cookies at

1723
01:40:41.319 --> 01:40:44.840
<v Speaker 2>one point. I don't think they have those cookies anymore. CIA.

1724
01:40:46.079 --> 01:40:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, there's so much there, so much I

1725
01:40:50.000 --> 01:40:53.479
<v Speaker 2>saw that as a recruiter, that you could go into

1726
01:40:53.520 --> 01:40:57.800
<v Speaker 2>that database, and you could hire a locksmith, someone who

1727
01:40:57.840 --> 01:41:01.520
<v Speaker 2>was in prison for being able to you know, break

1728
01:41:01.520 --> 01:41:04.960
<v Speaker 2>and enter. You needed those skills as much as you needed,

1729
01:41:05.319 --> 01:41:10.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, the postdoc in artificial intelligence. Just the range

1730
01:41:10.640 --> 01:41:14.880
<v Speaker 2>of things you needed was mind boggling, and you could

1731
01:41:14.960 --> 01:41:17.359
<v Speaker 2>end up working in any of those areas. You know,

1732
01:41:17.600 --> 01:41:21.239
<v Speaker 2>it was really something. It's very elitist though, that is

1733
01:41:21.279 --> 01:41:23.279
<v Speaker 2>the bad part.

1734
01:41:24.760 --> 01:41:27.000
<v Speaker 3>All right, we got one from the kind of answer

1735
01:41:27.000 --> 01:41:30.199
<v Speaker 3>this slightly. What could CIA slash NSA do to improve

1736
01:41:30.239 --> 01:41:31.479
<v Speaker 3>working conditions for women?

1737
01:41:32.800 --> 01:41:38.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Oh, my goodness, so much. You know, I can't

1738
01:41:38.840 --> 01:41:41.560
<v Speaker 2>even imagine it. At NSA. It would be like a

1739
01:41:42.199 --> 01:41:45.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, like a fantasy, just one you know, how

1740
01:41:45.840 --> 01:41:49.079
<v Speaker 2>to tell you. It's like it's baked into the culture

1741
01:41:50.079 --> 01:41:54.000
<v Speaker 2>that they're just not going to see women as whole

1742
01:41:54.039 --> 01:42:00.479
<v Speaker 2>human beings. It's insane CIA. So my perspective is different.

1743
01:42:00.520 --> 01:42:05.479
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I do think that operations is still tough

1744
01:42:05.520 --> 01:42:09.199
<v Speaker 2>for women to crack. I would imagine some of it

1745
01:42:09.239 --> 01:42:12.960
<v Speaker 2>comes down to the types of characteristics and skills that

1746
01:42:13.000 --> 01:42:16.199
<v Speaker 2>they value that maybe is hard for a woman, a

1747
01:42:16.279 --> 01:42:21.079
<v Speaker 2>woman to embody without not being a woman anymore. On

1748
01:42:21.119 --> 01:42:24.720
<v Speaker 2>the analytics side and science and technology, I think it

1749
01:42:24.800 --> 01:42:28.920
<v Speaker 2>was a little fairer. Believe it or not, it's more

1750
01:42:29.079 --> 01:42:34.840
<v Speaker 2>just dog eat dog. On the analytics side, it's incredibly combative.

1751
01:42:34.920 --> 01:42:37.359
<v Speaker 2>You have to be able, but it's all, you know,

1752
01:42:37.560 --> 01:42:41.479
<v Speaker 2>brain power. You have to brainstorm constantly. And so like

1753
01:42:41.560 --> 01:42:43.800
<v Speaker 2>the thing I described with the Open Source Center, where

1754
01:42:43.840 --> 01:42:46.159
<v Speaker 2>you would have the senior analysts of say the Russia

1755
01:42:46.239 --> 01:42:49.760
<v Speaker 2>Shop argue with me about the value of social media

1756
01:42:49.880 --> 01:42:53.760
<v Speaker 2>in the Russian population. You know you were doing that

1757
01:42:54.319 --> 01:42:57.119
<v Speaker 2>every time you turned around. You were just but that

1758
01:42:57.439 --> 01:43:01.239
<v Speaker 2>was so that you were coming to the right conclusions.

1759
01:43:01.279 --> 01:43:03.640
<v Speaker 2>You had to sort of fight it out to make

1760
01:43:03.680 --> 01:43:07.079
<v Speaker 2>sure that the best thought, you know, raised to the top.

1761
01:43:09.520 --> 01:43:11.319
<v Speaker 2>No one's going to want to work for CIA or

1762
01:43:11.399 --> 01:43:14.439
<v Speaker 2>especially NSA if they After this interview.

1763
01:43:17.079 --> 01:43:18.039
<v Speaker 1>We have one more from you.

1764
01:43:18.479 --> 01:43:21.439
<v Speaker 3>What are your thoughts on media consolidation in the Paramount

1765
01:43:21.920 --> 01:43:23.960
<v Speaker 3>Warner Brothers Discovery deal in particular.

1766
01:43:25.359 --> 01:43:31.439
<v Speaker 2>Well, I haven't watched that super closely. So one thing,

1767
01:43:31.479 --> 01:43:33.920
<v Speaker 2>and you've probably experienced this with other analysts on the show,

1768
01:43:33.960 --> 01:43:36.399
<v Speaker 2>is we don't really like to talk about things unless

1769
01:43:36.399 --> 01:43:38.920
<v Speaker 2>we really know what we're talking about. We tend not

1770
01:43:39.000 --> 01:43:42.000
<v Speaker 2>to be bullshitters. So I don't really have much to

1771
01:43:42.039 --> 01:43:46.359
<v Speaker 2>say on that. Also, you know people in intelligence. I

1772
01:43:46.399 --> 01:43:48.279
<v Speaker 2>don't know about now, but when I was coming up,

1773
01:43:48.560 --> 01:43:51.000
<v Speaker 2>we really tend not to focus on domestic things. We

1774
01:43:51.119 --> 01:43:54.359
<v Speaker 2>really focus on moreign intelligence. So I just have this

1775
01:43:54.520 --> 01:43:58.720
<v Speaker 2>bad habit of not following domestic situations very well. All

1776
01:43:58.720 --> 01:44:01.159
<v Speaker 2>I know is for me as now, someone who's trying

1777
01:44:01.199 --> 01:44:03.119
<v Speaker 2>to break into that side of media is probably a

1778
01:44:03.159 --> 01:44:04.119
<v Speaker 2>really bad thing.

1779
01:44:07.760 --> 01:44:10.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, Alma, thank you for taking some time out of

1780
01:44:10.640 --> 01:44:14.800
<v Speaker 1>your evening to do this interview. Really appreciate it. Any

1781
01:44:14.880 --> 01:44:15.960
<v Speaker 1>final thoughts before we.

1782
01:44:15.920 --> 01:44:19.199
<v Speaker 2>Go tonight, Well, thank you. I hope I didn't sound

1783
01:44:19.239 --> 01:44:22.800
<v Speaker 2>like too much of a jerk. And it's not often

1784
01:44:22.800 --> 01:44:25.680
<v Speaker 2>where you just get to pontificate about yourself for way

1785
01:44:25.880 --> 01:44:28.560
<v Speaker 2>too long. So thank you very much for putting up

1786
01:44:28.560 --> 01:44:30.880
<v Speaker 2>with me. This was so much fun. You are so

1787
01:44:31.079 --> 01:44:33.880
<v Speaker 2>sweet and really appreciate it.

1788
01:44:34.159 --> 01:44:38.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, thank you and everyone else out there. Thank you

1789
01:44:38.600 --> 01:44:45.640
<v Speaker 1>for joining us tonight and we'll see you guys next time. Hey, guys,

1790
01:44:45.680 --> 01:44:47.520
<v Speaker 1>I want to take a moment to tell you about

1791
01:44:47.520 --> 01:44:51.319
<v Speaker 1>the Team House podcast newsletter. If you go and subscribe,

1792
01:44:51.479 --> 01:44:54.760
<v Speaker 1>it's totally free, and what it will do is aggregate

1793
01:44:54.920 --> 01:44:57.600
<v Speaker 1>all of our data, all of our content that we

1794
01:44:57.680 --> 01:45:01.439
<v Speaker 1>put out the things that are on the Teamhouse on

1795
01:45:01.479 --> 01:45:06.640
<v Speaker 1>our geopolitics podcast, Eyes On, things that I write journalistically

1796
01:45:06.680 --> 01:45:10.079
<v Speaker 1>with Sean Naylor on the high Side, anything else that

1797
01:45:10.119 --> 01:45:14.760
<v Speaker 1>we have going on, books, we recommend upcoming guests that

1798
01:45:14.800 --> 01:45:17.680
<v Speaker 1>we have coming on the show, and also you know,

1799
01:45:17.720 --> 01:45:20.920
<v Speaker 1>filtering in some fun stuff in there as well, if

1800
01:45:20.960 --> 01:45:22.600
<v Speaker 1>you'll go and check it out. We send it out

1801
01:45:22.640 --> 01:45:24.840
<v Speaker 1>just once a week. We don't want to spam you guys.

1802
01:45:25.000 --> 01:45:27.079
<v Speaker 1>It's just a kind of roll up of all of

1803
01:45:27.119 --> 01:45:30.560
<v Speaker 1>our content on a weekly basis. You can find our

1804
01:45:30.600 --> 01:45:36.359
<v Speaker 1>newsletter at Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com slash join again.

1805
01:45:36.560 --> 01:45:40.439
<v Speaker 1>The website for that is Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com,

1806
01:45:40.439 --> 01:45:43.640
<v Speaker 1>slash join So we hope to see you there. The

1807
01:45:43.680 --> 01:45:44.920
<v Speaker 1>link will be down the description