Speaker 1: What is up, fellow Sicco's the post mortem train rolls
on the Atlanta Hawks.
Speaker 2: Grant, I'll take them. I'll take us.
Speaker 1: Through their off season finals over thirty five million.
Speaker 2: Below the tack if they renounce the rights to.
Speaker 1: Plain Papella, Larry Dan Junior, and Karris Forvert closer to
like ten to fifteen million below the tax. If they
carry the Verts hold, which is almost twenty five million dollars,
I would assume he ends up costing less, so like
they'll have more flexibility if he's signing for less than
twenty five million dollars a year and staying the moral
of this story is they should be able to access
the full non tax payer mid level if they want to.
But they're also a team that we know is not
going to pay the tax, so their room. It's not
just oh, how much room do they have beneath the
first apron, which are hard capped at if you use
the non tax payer mid level, it's more so can
they stay under the tax and have access to that tool?
They probably can, but that'll be fascinating, also fascinating. Trey
Young extension eligible four years, two hundred and twenty eight
twenty nine points six million, whatever the number is, he
can sign also Dyson Daniels rookie scale extension eligible. And finally,
and most importantly, well the one they're still looking for
a lead basketball executive as we record this, but two,
they can trade up to it and think it'll end
up being five first round picks, even with the way
the San Antonio commitments shake out. They have that twenty
twenty seventh selection coming over from it's gonna be the
that's the Pelicans or the Bucks that it'll come from.
So they have that, and they can trade their own
first in twenty nine and twenty thirty one, though I
certainly would not advocate in favor of them doing So.
Speaker 2: How do you feeling about these Hawks entering the off season? Well,
I think the.
Speaker 3: Rise of some of their youth leaves me a little
conflicted because, yeah, and certainly, like I've been team, it's
time to trade Trey Young for like probably way to
craft it. Yeah, yeah, like for most of his career,
I guess, And now it's kind of like, well, part
of it is just the trade landscape in general. But
I'm not, I'm less, I'm less glued to that idea.
But to get to the younger player's point. It's like,
I mean, resa sche was as advertised or slightly better.
I think Daniels had had a breakthrough year in Daniels right,
and a kong Wu took over the starting job. He's
a little he's twenty four, so he's not like the
full on youth brigade, but he's like young enough and
he's just on his second contract that he's part of that.
And Jalen Johnson, who knows how big this year's leap
would have been if he'd stayed healthy. Like signs were
looking pretty good. So like, I don't know, Like I
weirdly for the more so than in any of the
last handful of offseasons for the Hawks, I'm kind of like,
I think I kind of like what they have for
the most part, and I don't don't love a big swing,
And if they can just kind of trust the youth
to develop, I think they're a playoff team next year.
So like, I don't know that we certainly we can
get into like what their options are, what they should do,
how they should operate relatives to the cap and the
tax line and all that stuff, but like, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Do you feel that way?
Speaker 3: Or are you does Trey sort of now stick out
like a sore thumb more than he used to? Or
like where are you?
Speaker 1: In general, I think I mostly agree with you. He
doesn't stick out like a sore thumb to me. If
he was, I would say, if he's willing to sign
the extension, I might just offer it to him.
Speaker 2: But I've also given a lot of thought to is
he Could it be him?
Speaker 1: I think Jaron Jackson Junior will be a good case
study of this of our team's going to start being
more selective with who they're giving these MAX extensions to.
And it's different because Trey Young's isn't going to be
a super max. But like the MAVs didn't want to
pay Luca the regular max, it seemed like basically so
how the new front office regime, given the direction that
they're going in, are do you actually want to max
out Trey Young and have him continue to be the
focal point. I think they need to figure that out independent,
because we know they're not going to get their own
picks back from San Antonio for him. But I would
agree with you that with what we saw from Reesa,
say Resa Schet this year and Daniels and j Allen
Johnson before he got injured again, which's a big can
he finished the season healthy. Well, there's a team that
can make some real noise in the East, but you.
Speaker 2: Do get caught.
Speaker 1: I think I'm with you in this sense that if
you're gonna decide that you want to sit on Tree Young,
I'm kind of sitting on the.
Speaker 2: Rest of the roster too and letting it go.
Speaker 1: I would like to see them get different at the
five spot. I like on Yekka kung Wu, but you
need someone who's either a younger version of Clint Capella
or maybe just a more like even more of a
versatile version where he has size but can make more
decisions with the ball, maybe operate a little bit from
the perimeter and addition to setting screens and you know,
being a target for Young on the pick and roll.
If they were gonna be aggressive or if I had
to identify, oh, this is what I want to see
them do, they could use some shooting. But I kind
of look at the five spot again. As much as
I like a Kung Wu, I am with you in
the sense that I'm not doing anything major here, and personally,
I don't even know, if I'm trading Trey Young if
there's someone there's a godfather offer out there. But part
of the problem for me is you don't trade a
guy just because.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like if you do sign him to that extension,
Let's say let's say he goes the full for two
twenty nine ish, is he more tradable, you know, with
that level of security or is that like just too
scary of a commitment and a team might rather have
him for like this year next year and then who
knows what happens with the twenty six twenty seven player option.
Do you think do you think it's could the Hawks
just sign the deal because they're like, this is like
it's an extreme example of like if the Rockets pick
up Van Vliet's team option, it might just mean they
intend to trade him.
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting. I yeah, because I would. And also
couldn't you look at it as how poorly could that
deal really age?
Speaker 3: I don't know, I mean you just think. I think
I think it's implied that Young is going to be
like pretty close to what he's been the last couple
of years going forward, right, Like he's not going to
fall off a cliff. He should shoot it better. That
should be the expectation. So yeah, it should age should
age fairly. Well, it's not like he's he's a small guard,
so there's that concern, but it's not like he's super
dependent on like Russell Westbrook athleticism or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Is there even a team that you think, I guess
Houston could theoretically be one of them, but that just
seems antithetical to what they're kind of thinking right now.
Is there even a team that you think could use
Trey Young and then would also be interested him to
wear Maybe that gets the Hawks thinking, or if he bristles,
maybe they offer me the extension, doesn't want to sign it.
Now that's when you have to look at moving Trey Young.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean in Orlando has to be thrown out
there with if you're gonna mention Houston, I mean, like
the thing is onboarding Trey Young is is like he
changes the way that you play on both ends like that.
Just now, you might say that a team like Houston
or Orlando can certainly get away like insulate him better defensively,
but you are just going to become I mean, even
if you want to credit him for being off the
ball a little more this past year, like you're gonna
be pretty heliocentric, like because he's out there to have
the ball a lot and make the pass shoot decision,
which is like it's not that long ago that we
were all just like yeah, I mean, if you have
Trey Young your top you're a top seven offense or whatever.
That's just he's that good. I don't see a reason
he can't get back to that. So so like I
I would be cognizant of the fact as a Houston
for example, that like this will change a lot if
you bring in someone like this. But I don't know
if I don't know if you want to overthink it
because I like he will address your issue like that's
that will happen for them.
Speaker 2: I don't know if he would be the target for me.
Speaker 1: I want Tom Houston, but he makes more sense in
Houston than Orlando to where you don't want to displace
Palo and Franz too much in the ball and then
pretty much everyone in Houston, with the exception of maybe
Opera and Shanggud it's like yeah, like no.
Speaker 3: We're fine, or if you yeah, or if you really
think amn, Thompson just has like three extra levels to
jump as like an on ball playmaking type guy. And
and he makes shots like I'm or actually, I don't
know how you didn't mention this. Do you really want
to bring someone in that's gonna play over read Shepherd.
Speaker 1: Trey Young wouldn't be my trade target, Like if it's
Devin Booker, there's still a pathway if you don't give up,
reed Shepherd to him pass theming into the role that
he was born to assume, the Dice and Daniels extension eligibility.
Speaker 2: What are you what are you paying?
Speaker 1: He's not getting the max. We don't need to go
into what the max number is gonna be. But where
do you pay this guy?
Speaker 3: Would Caruso get four for eighty? Is the number around there?
I'm not going over that. I mean maybe you could
make the youth argument and like the possible offensive development
continuing argument, but like he's just not a better defender
than Caruso, and that's what you have him out there
for more than anything.
Speaker 1: I would say he has a ton of leverage after
winning Most Improved Player if he get If you get
him for twenty million dollars annually, I think you probably
have to pounce on I don't know that the number
is gonna get better. Now if I'm the team and
he says I want four for one hundred or something
or whatever, like four for one twenty whatever it ends
up being, then it's that's why.
Speaker 2: Restricted free agency exists.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you get into it and see if the market
would And maybe that's the case for what's the team
when he still doesn't really like he's he has that floater.
We know what he does defensively, he's a pretty good passer, Like,
what is the team that's gonna come out of the
woodwork in twenty twenty six with this monster offer?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: And and like he as as much as he did
improve and as good as he was on defense, Like
you know, Trey Jung is one of a handful of
guys that's like, all right, we have him, so we
can accommodate Daniels, you know what I mean? Like that
his limitations still are there. Uh, maybe maybe they disappear
next year if he's if this trajectory continues, but like
he's not the cleanest fit everywhere, so you can't I
don't think you can pay him as if he's a
surefire starter on a random team on any team, right,
because I just don't know if that's I'm not sold
on that yet.
Speaker 1: I think in terms of rookie scale extensions, I don't
know if he's the most interesting one for me, but
I'm gonna I'm be so fast I see where the
number comes in at or he does, feel like because
of kind of the ambiguity of what is our what
is Atlanta doing here? And whoever comes in, They're like,
that's this isn't like they didn't value Dyson Daniels the
way the Hawks did in the Pelicanstrait. That was someone
out whether it was Fields or somebody else in the
front office, that was somebody else. So it does feel
like I would expect him to sign it a extension.
But I also I am like I could also see that
one leaking into restricted free agency because of the circumstances.
Speaker 3: Right, and the and the Hawks just like aversion to
paying more than they have to and trying to duct
the tax and all that stuff, like they're I'm sure
they're okay with with I think everybody's gonna operate this way.
I really think teams are just gonna squeeze guys because
there's just no money out there. And I think the
landscape's changing.
Speaker 1: I agree with you, but I always feel like, for
some reason, there appears to be an exception when it's
even when it's a non star and they're your own
free agent, kind of like Nicholas Claxton who was giving
him four and one hundred last year, or even this
year with Josh Giddy, like who is coming in with
There's one team that has a shit ton of cap
space and we don't think they're gonna use it on
the free agency market. So I I am curious to
see if we start to see the higher profile squeezes
where I don't. I used the Cavs did it with
Isaaca Korro a little bit with how.
Speaker 2: Long it took him to sign it.
Speaker 1: Yeah that was a while, So I'm interesting does that
become more commonplace? Yeah, that's a good question. What do
you This changes a great deal depending on what happens
with Young But if we assume that just the base
of this team is what they kind of plan on
moving forward, do you agree that you want to see
something different at centers? They're a bigger need that you're identifying,
and is there or even maybe I'll ask this question,
what is the not It doesn't even have to be
like this player is a target, Like what is the
ideal big for this roster?
Speaker 3: Well, so I was that's what I want to focus on.
So like a Kongo was making an average of what
like sixteen over the next four years, maybe a little
less than that, and I actually really like him. I
think he's improved a lot. I do think the three
point shooting is going to become increasingly a thing for him.
But at the same time, I do I guess like
if he's not your starter and you go out and
you're gonna spend money on someone to start ahead of him,
I think you're going like you almost because Kong was good,
Like I don't know where he ranks and starting centers
in the league, Like he's not in the top ten
or anything, or top fifteen probably, but like he's a
legit starter to me, if you go out and get
somebody to play over him, like how much are you
paying that guy? And then how comfortable are you with
that guy's salary at center? Plus a Kong Wu making
like high high end backup center money, which is like
a cardinal sin of like you just can't pay backup centers.
You know, anything close to the mid level or what
unless your needs are super specific and you have cheap
stuff elsewhere, you know, so like I almost think they
I think a Kong was just gonna have to be
the guy. And then if that's the way it is
going forward, you can spend a minimum on a backup
and that's fine, and maybe play Jalen Johnson at some
five against certain lineups. But then it's like, if you
don't bring Lavert back, then you just need a Lavert type,
because I do still think if you know, it's Bogdanovich
held it down for a long time. They tried it
with the Jeante Murray, Lavert was pretty you know, I
think you need that type of guy, and it might
just be Lvert and you're gonna be able to get
him at less than his cap hold, as you alluded to.
But I like their wings, I like their forwards. If
you believe in a Kong Wu, then that really does
just leave like the offense first combo guard or or
offense first kind of wing type.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 1: I guess the center stuff though, I'm just wondering, what
does the rebounding look like if it's Jalen Johnson and
Okungu in the front court, which is why it could
be concerning. But maybe to your point, then it's a
change of pace big that's coming off the bench behind
a Kungou.
Speaker 2: It's not we need or five because the Congu is
really good. I do agree with you.
Speaker 1: And he's super versatile, can make stuff as a playmaker
on offense, moves really well on defense. I think WaveRT
is kind of like you don't want to overpay him,
but for the role that it feels like they need,
Like he's almost kind of maybe you want something just
a little bit better of a passer, but like the
way he's for the most part improved, he's like a
shooter and a defender over the past two or three years,
it kind of feels like he's just like, yeah, you
should resign that guy.
Speaker 3: Right like, and if you don't, and you try to
get cheaper and go find like maybe there's another tie
Jerome out there, like somebody like that that you could
realistically give a rotation role to. I think you'd have
to be pretty confident that like Daniels is gonna improve
as a playmaker, that Jalen Johnson will continue to improve
as a playmaker that uh reesa Cha adds more layers
to his game. Like, so you could get away with that,
but that would feel like a gamble, I think, Lavert.
I think you just kind of at this point you
understand what you're getting from him, and maybe you want
somebody with a little more upside. But like you're I
think you're taking a pretty big risk if you think
you're gonna go just find that guy and be able
to get him like below market.
Speaker 1: You know, what is what? What if they did decide
to move Trey Young?
Speaker 2: Like what is that? What becomes of this ausse?
Speaker 1: I guess they've kind of done a lot of their
Bogdanovitch is gone, DeAndre Hunter is gone. I guess aside
from Trey Young, it's you wouldn't look at well, like
this guy needs to go. The only thing would be,
are you how the person who's coming in and running
here front office do they give any thought to Well,
would san Antonio give us our picks back for Jalen Johnson?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I mean if Trey Young, that'd be something
to consider.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if Young, if Young is gonna go, then like
normally you would have said, well Capella has gone too,
But they just never could trade him, and now he's
coming off the books. Everybody else is young enough that
you could conceivably just be like, yeah, we'll try to
grow it around these guys, except like Johnson's already making
thirty a kongs on his second deal, like you're probably
gonna It's just it would be hard, I feel like,
because then don't you still unless it's this massive bet
on like Daniels and Johnson and recently, don't you need
someone to like run the offense again, like you aren't
you just looking for someone who can do some of
what Trey used to do.
Speaker 1: Well all of what Trey used to do, and maybe
can play off the ball or like bigger and.
Speaker 2: Right all of it and more.
Speaker 3: That's a bit that's like when you fire a coach
and you have no idea if there's a better coach
out there, You just like, we can't do it with
this guy. That feels risky.
Speaker 1: I will say, maybe we already talked about this, but
of that like Ja Morant Trey Young challenge trade that
I've seen floating around, I loathe it for Atlanta. If
that's like the direct in their head hit, it's no
you stick with and just based off where they're at
with their picks, and I kind of see the vision
of what they're trying to do around Trey Young. I'm
probably keeping Tray Young because it's just like there's no
as of right now, there's no real upside to not
competing in the East next year. I think they have
a good enough roster to where some futzing and fiddling.
Like you said, bring back Laverder if you think you
can upgrade from him, And I would like to see
like a different type of big on this roster, maybe
like Thlink Capella, but Younger would make a lot of
sense or can like do better on like catching or
decision making.
Speaker 2: With the ball.
Speaker 1: I think that you could be like if you told
me they were six in the top six in the
East last year, there's maybe what two or three teams
that are I guess more than that, like three four
that are guaranteed to still be in like that top
four mix.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like it would feel unambitious because like, no
matter what they did, if they brought back this whole group,
we wouldn't say, like I think they're a top three
team in the East, like they just can't get there.
But like I think they have enough young, interesting players
and Johnson still fits into this and Reese Chay certainly does.
Where it's like it it is unambitious, but it's okay
because like from a fan perspective, you still have the
growth of these young, like exciting guys to watch, and
it's just easier to deal with a forty three win
team if there's like, if there's a perception of upside
because you have young players that are getting better, I
don't know.
Speaker 1: I would say if you do, if you did get
rid of Trey Young, the benefit would be, oh, we
could really stress test Zachary Reiche's offensive armory. But then
I'm also like, I think zacharyche looked really good on
offense this year because he didn't have to do like
by the end of it, because he do that stuff.
Speaker 2: So you're like, you're making a really big dice roll.
Speaker 1: There's I think a lot of the times, I'm sure
I'm guilty of it where it's we conflate just like
this player makes a lot there at this point in
their career, it's gonna hurt the development of the youngsters.
I actually really think, like I've become a big believer
in like no, like some of these dudes can streamline the.
Speaker 2: Development of players.
Speaker 1: Really have no business shouldering that type of role even
as their development.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is an The Hawks are an example
of that. All Right, that's gonna do it. Thanks everybody
for listening, for watching. If you have not already, please
remember to rate for you and subscribe. If you're watching
this on YouTube because the thumbs up, leave as a
comment there. Join our discord links for that or in
the YouTube podcast description. Tell your friends, Tell your enemies
shouts franklo Kine apologies, Jared Allen