Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Nonprofits the weekly recorded show
Speaker 1: that addresses current events and news items from an atheist
Speaker 1: and a secular humanist perspective. Guess What Summer is here
Speaker 1: and Fay Albernos is out on Miami Beach for Pride.
Speaker 1: She is self proclaimed very loud and fast talking and
Speaker 1: the lesbian host of the Fay What Show. While out
Speaker 1: on Miami Beach, she talks about the struggles of the
Speaker 1: LGBTQ community in the current political landscape, especially in Florida.
Speaker 1: What is striking to me, though, is the contrast between
Speaker 1: her loud and call colorful outfit and the topics that
Speaker 1: she discusses, like the funding of HIV and AIDS research
Speaker 1: and threats to trans kids. It's a strange combination. However,
Speaker 1: she seems to be genuinely interested in everyone's well being
Speaker 1: and honestly, we need more good natured people in the world.
Speaker 1: This story is from GBTQ Nation by Greg Owen on
Speaker 1: May nineteenth, twenty twenty five, so with that, though within
Speaker 1: the article it does say that she was out as
Speaker 1: part of her congregation, and I am immediately questioned, we
Speaker 1: see active, active persecution of trans people as well as
Speaker 1: we did in the past and still ongoing, but less
Speaker 1: so of gays and lesbians is least, is just not
Speaker 1: as in much of the spotlight from churches and religious establishments.
Speaker 1: How can an LGBT person be part of anything religious
Speaker 1: a church? Isn't this counterproductive?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Is that? Does that even make sense, Cynthia? Why would
Speaker 1: they do that?
Speaker 3: Well? I think that one of the things that we
Speaker 3: have to see in the article. It highlights this intersection
Speaker 3: between faith and the lgbtqia plus identity and how they
Speaker 3: use that identity through activism, especially through Abernus's you know,
Speaker 3: involvement such and with Unity on the Bay, the non
Speaker 3: denominational church that she embraces, it supports LGBTQ people, even
Speaker 3: though at large that's not a traditional position that religious
Speaker 3: institutions take. So even with her participation in the Miami
Speaker 3: Beach Pride, it actually underlines the importance of visibility and
Speaker 3: boldness and claiming her spiritual and also her social place,
Speaker 3: even though I have no idea what spiritual means. But hey,
Speaker 3: if you like it, I love it overlist. I'm just
Speaker 3: saying that. I mean, like you know, I'm just saying
Speaker 3: but also like reading her story, it's really like a
Speaker 3: reminder that you know, faith and the LGBTQ identity are
Speaker 3: not necessarily mutual excuse exclusive, despite this long standing narrative
Speaker 3: that has sought to separate or oppose them. And I
Speaker 3: think that with her involvement with the Unity on the
Speaker 3: Bay reveals a hopeful path forward that you can still
Speaker 3: be a church organization and still support a marginalized community,
Speaker 3: even though that is not necessary the traditional stance that
Speaker 3: the church actually takes. Now, if you ask me personally,
Speaker 3: does that make sense? Yes, you did. You did ask
Speaker 3: me personally, know Cynthia, that is my name. Thank you
Speaker 3: for reminding me. I personally don't necessarily necessarily see how
Speaker 3: the two can meet because so for so long we've
Speaker 3: seen the church being actively opposed to the lgbt Q
Speaker 3: y A plus community. And I know that I personally
Speaker 3: say like, I don't understand like how one can be
Speaker 3: queer and also be a Christian. But I've met several
Speaker 3: people who happen to be part of that community that
Speaker 3: also have some type of religious or spiritual identity within that.
Speaker 3: You know, they believe in a god, they go to
Speaker 3: a church, they they practice, you know, some type of ritual.
Speaker 3: When it comes to you know, their their belief systems
Speaker 3: in within the church, and for some reason they feel
Speaker 3: that it affirms them. So I think that even though
Speaker 3: like personally, I may not necessarily see how that's reasonable
Speaker 3: because you do have scripture that supports the marginalization of
Speaker 3: especially gay people. But at the but on the other end,
Speaker 3: I am pro what makes you feel good?
Speaker 1: Do so sure? Because I apparently did not realize that
Speaker 1: I am in a relatively unique perspective within the atheist community,
Speaker 1: that I was never religious. Most people have deconverted to
Speaker 1: some degree, and that was never the case for me.
Speaker 1: So therefore I find it in many ways alien and
Speaker 1: baffling to really even try to have some of these
Speaker 1: discussions or ideas. So then that makes me say something like, hey, Eli,
Speaker 1: you brought this up in your notes, so I'm just
Speaker 1: going to use it. It's a great AMMO. We're all
Speaker 1: sis head people. Can we even have a conversation about
Speaker 1: this because we're not part of the LGBT community. I'm
Speaker 1: an atheist who did not deconvert. I am a little
Speaker 1: alien within my own community. Are we even allowed to
Speaker 1: talk about this?
Speaker 2: And that's actually for a moment, there was a brief
Speaker 2: moment where I thought it would just be you and
Speaker 2: I Rob blah blah on the show, and so I
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, respect.
Speaker 4: So at first I was like, oh, yes, I know
Speaker 4: people love hearing straight cis white dudes talk about the
Speaker 4: experience of anybody other than them or even like.
Speaker 3: This conversation not just about you know, straight guys.
Speaker 2: We joke all the time too that when you and
Speaker 2: I work together, you have when when you're you know,
Speaker 2: you have me discussed experiences that I haven't had and
Speaker 2: can't have.
Speaker 4: But to your point, Rob, to answer your question because
Speaker 4: it's fun, and.
Speaker 2: That's and I want to clarify too that like I'm
Speaker 2: I'm grateful for that opportunity because I have to learn
Speaker 2: when when you know when, that's when I'm presented with that,
Speaker 2: and it just it's it's one more instance of being
Speaker 2: presented with it.
Speaker 4: So I'm grateful for it.
Speaker 2: And to that point, I think that, I mean, everybody
Speaker 2: is entitled to an opinion on everything. I guess I
Speaker 2: mean to a certain extent, like I can think whatever
Speaker 2: I think about any given thing. Like if I'm wrong,
Speaker 2: anybody has the right to tell me, like, no, you're wrong,
Speaker 2: and you sound like an asshole with how wrong you are,
Speaker 2: how confidently you are.
Speaker 4: So it's just sort of the way that it is.
Speaker 2: I think, do I need to be a part of
Speaker 2: a group to articulate an opinion on it? I would
Speaker 2: argue that no, But I personally strive to make sure
Speaker 2: that what I am saying is based on what I
Speaker 2: am hearing and learning from people who are living that
Speaker 2: experience and what they are telling me that that experience
Speaker 2: is like, because I know it's not my place to
Speaker 2: speak for anybody else, you know, I can only say
Speaker 2: this is what I'm being told, and that's why I care.
Speaker 1: I think to use an extreme example because extremes are
Speaker 1: useful in just trying to create some form of argumentation
Speaker 1: so we can understand whether something may be valid in
Speaker 1: the outset if we take it to an extreme position.
Speaker 1: I think I agree. Ultimately, everyone can have an opinion.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean it's informed, but you can have an
Speaker 1: opinion and maybe even speak intelligibly on this situation. In
Speaker 1: this case, if you're not part of the group, like
Speaker 1: for example, I'm not part of the KKK, and I
Speaker 1: could probably talk about how that's a bad thing right there,
Speaker 1: they suck. I don't like them, and I don't need
Speaker 1: to be a part of them to go. You know,
Speaker 1: I think the structure is a little bad. Yeah, I agree, Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course. I mean I was going to go for Nazi,
Speaker 1: but at least I'm white, so that was the problem
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, but you were talking about but we're
Speaker 1: talking about the marginalization of LGT people LGBTQ, And what
Speaker 1: I find from fay Wat especially or fay Fay Aubernas
Speaker 1: is her outfits. And I know this is going to
Speaker 1: sound really silly, but I genuinely find a really simolic,
Speaker 1: interesting contradiction and distinction about how loud she dresses compared
Speaker 1: to the severity of the things that she's talking about.
Speaker 1: So when we go to Pride events, I've only been
Speaker 1: to one, and even then, like kind of it is
Speaker 1: my understanding that Pride events are like really big parties.
Speaker 1: They're in large part of celebration. So how is it
Speaker 1: possible for a very large party to be an active
Speaker 1: defiance Because I see in your notes, Cynthia that used
Speaker 1: to talking about just meeting at all is an active defiance.
Speaker 1: I don't get it.
Speaker 4: Help me out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, Pride events are not just a party.
Speaker 3: I mean like I have been fortunate to participate in
Speaker 3: a couple especially within my work in the past. I
Speaker 3: specifically was a case manager that worked with you know,
Speaker 3: LGBTQI plus people. So when we had the opportunity to
Speaker 3: participate in Pride in my city, I was absolutely saying, yes,
Speaker 3: I will walk all those miles and get my feet
Speaker 3: hurting because I because I consider myself an ally even
Speaker 3: though I may you know, identifies as a as a
Speaker 3: assist head person heterosexual, but I do I find myself
Speaker 3: you know, allied with the lgbt q I plus community
Speaker 3: because there is an intersection with race and also gender
Speaker 3: identification there and also marginalization. So I get it right,
Speaker 3: And I think that most of the the opportunity that
Speaker 3: we see within a Pride event is visibility, which and
Speaker 3: visibility is an act of defiance because what we're seeing
Speaker 3: right now is an overt active policies coming from the
Speaker 3: top down to marginalize specifically that group.
Speaker 1: Yeah they're not discreet, No they're not, they're not.
Speaker 3: They are overt with it, right, and they are really
Speaker 3: trying to sweep under the rug that you know, gay
Speaker 3: people exist, trans people exist, you know, intersects people exist right,
Speaker 3: and and you even have people within our community that
Speaker 3: we have looked up to for years to be like
Speaker 3: our thought leaders on atheism and reason and free thought,
Speaker 3: starting to devolve themselves in within that conversation to marginalize
Speaker 3: even further and even weaponizing their so called knowledge against
Speaker 3: trans people. We've covered this before, and so since people
Speaker 3: are saying, oh, well, you're a evolution biologist, so do
Speaker 3: you should know what you're talking about? So yes, I'm
Speaker 3: going to take your word instead of like people who
Speaker 3: are actually living this life, right, So I think that
Speaker 3: it's important. It's kind of like how we, you know,
Speaker 3: in African American community celebrate Juneteenth. A lot of people
Speaker 3: don't know what Juneteenth is. Juneteenth is when the Union
Speaker 3: Army went to Galveston, Texas to let the last of
Speaker 3: the slaves knows who they were free because of the
Speaker 3: Civil War, and ever since then, before it became a
Speaker 3: national hou day that within the African community, African American community,
Speaker 3: June Teams were celebrated is June nineteenth. We consider that
Speaker 3: our independence day. But you know, there has been like
Speaker 3: efforts to shut it down, not necessarily really acknowledge it,
Speaker 3: et cetera. Et cetera. And we even also see like
Speaker 3: an overt attack on even talking about slavery, even in
Speaker 3: an academic sense. Yeah, and I would say that this
Speaker 3: is also what's happening with the LGBTQ people. You have
Speaker 3: you know, senators and representatives who I actively speak against
Speaker 3: you know, same sex marriage. And you also have you know,
Speaker 3: bills coming out of different states and even on the
Speaker 3: like the federal level to you know, not acknowledge that
Speaker 3: trans people exist and even trying to keep away proper
Speaker 3: medical care for transforming people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're bringing up like really good examples of marginalization
Speaker 1: of many different types of people, and it just kind
Speaker 1: of seems like trans people are the target nowadays. I
Speaker 1: don't want to like call it the fad, but it's
Speaker 1: definitely the thing that.
Speaker 3: They are, you know. And I mean and I don't
Speaker 3: think that. And and so if we give a chance
Speaker 3: to have like events like Pride to say that hey,
Speaker 3: this is who I am, this is who I was born,
Speaker 3: I was born this way, shout out to Lady Gaga,
Speaker 3: in order for us to you know, really say that
Speaker 3: this is a this is a thing, then you know,
Speaker 3: I think that that's going to be the defiance against
Speaker 3: the ones who want to erase their identity.
Speaker 1: So then short question, very eli, I think we might
Speaker 1: be using the word marginalized differently in the way that
Speaker 1: we're talking internally, and I just want to first ask,
Speaker 1: is it what is marginalization? Does that require an act
Speaker 1: of aggression against that group or is it simply you
Speaker 1: are the mind.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's simply And I think you're right.
Speaker 2: I think a lot well not quite what you said,
Speaker 2: but related to what you said, I think there's just
Speaker 2: a misunderstanding about what it like, what marginalization is. It's
Speaker 2: when you think about like the paper that you would
Speaker 2: write on when you were in high school, the whole
Speaker 2: body everything that you would write was in between those
Speaker 2: two lines, and on the outside of those lines the margins,
Speaker 2: the things that you only use for the three hole
Speaker 2: punch to put it in your binder. That's the concept
Speaker 2: of marginalized groups. Is that the group that perceives themselves
Speaker 2: as a majority, typically at least in the United statesis
Speaker 2: white men, Christian primarily, but I mean, I guess not
Speaker 2: all anymore. But see themselves as the body of the paper,
Speaker 2: the body of the homework, and then the margins outside
Speaker 2: of those two lines, that's what's left for everybody else
Speaker 2: to exist in. And it's intended to be separate from us.
Speaker 1: Well that's okay, So ask my question it's intended? Does
Speaker 1: does marginalization exist simply because there are groups that are
Speaker 1: smaller than others? Or does it require malice?
Speaker 3: If it's possible, can I answer it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Please?
Speaker 3: I think that what we have to understand specifically when
Speaker 3: it comes to like marginalization is that it comes. It
Speaker 3: comes more because you It's not necessarily because you're the minority.
Speaker 3: It's because the people that are in power decide that
Speaker 3: they're going to create policies to keep you existing in
Speaker 3: a certain area and you cannot exist outside of.
Speaker 4: That, and it comes.
Speaker 3: And I know that we can see that specifically when
Speaker 3: it comes to the laws of the land, that is,
Speaker 3: you know, created specifically for a specific group on how
Speaker 3: we are going to govern you. You know, I mean,
Speaker 3: perfect example, I can think of as Jim Crow during
Speaker 3: those one hundred years in the South, you had Jim
Speaker 3: Crow laws that govern how black people are supposed to move,
Speaker 3: where they're supposed to live, what bathrooms they can use,
Speaker 3: what sinks they can use, what lunch counters that they
Speaker 3: can eat at et cetera, et cetera. Right, and now
Speaker 3: we're seeing the same thing with trans people saying, oh, well,
Speaker 3: I know that you identify as a woman, but you know,
Speaker 3: within this particular state, you can't use the woman's bathroom
Speaker 3: even though you identify as such. You can't get you know,
Speaker 3: your home roown treatment when you're a certain age, you
Speaker 3: can't get this covered under your insurance because the government
Speaker 3: said so. And that's specifically what we are we are
Speaker 3: experiencing when it comes to like the the laws that
Speaker 3: are created in order for the people to be governed
Speaker 3: in this area. Now, now, if you now to your
Speaker 3: point about malice, you know.
Speaker 1: I well, the way that you're talking about it, the
Speaker 1: way that makes me started thinking is that malice has
Speaker 1: not required just power because it is how it is
Speaker 1: affecting people. It doesn't necessarily need be malicious, but something
Speaker 1: has to be enacted.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that one of the things that we
Speaker 3: have to acknowledge is that whether if malice is intended
Speaker 3: or not, the people empower when they put these particular
Speaker 3: rules upon a group, maliciousness still happens, you know, we yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, saying like back in the day during during
Speaker 3: before the United States became the United States, and you
Speaker 3: had these flew of laws coming down for the Virginia
Speaker 3: Burgess government, Burgess government in that area. You know, they
Speaker 3: decided because the Bacon's rebellion and you had Africans that
Speaker 3: actually sided with you know, white indentureds that you know,
Speaker 3: we're going to create a system where we're going to
Speaker 3: separate the two of these people in order for them
Speaker 3: not to hook up again, in order to overthrow the
Speaker 3: people who happened to be elite. Now, their thing was,
Speaker 3: we just want to protect ourselves and our interests. But
Speaker 3: what they ended up doing was creating an entire labor
Speaker 3: force that was like based on chattel slavery that actually
Speaker 3: ended up bleeding into the United States and even in
Speaker 3: the United States Constitution. And even though they were saying, no,
Speaker 3: we're just protecting our interests because we don't want to,
Speaker 3: you know, have anything come against like you know, our
Speaker 3: you know, capitalistic desires.
Speaker 1: It's nothing against you personally, it's just the effect of
Speaker 1: what we've done. Therefore, like like Malison I would say,
Speaker 1: requires intent, but in this case, malicious or not, the
Speaker 1: damage is done. So but you're talking about how people
Speaker 1: are governed and maintained, how power structures are set over them.
Speaker 1: And this is UH and fay Fay Alberanovs is in
Speaker 1: UH Pride at Miami. So, Eli, do you think there's
Speaker 1: anything special about pride specifically in Florida.
Speaker 2: I think kind of kind of to what Cynthia was
Speaker 2: saying earlier about calling it sort of an active defiance.
Speaker 2: And I think I sort of understood at least a
Speaker 2: version of what you know you meant right away by that, Cynthia.
Speaker 1: Is that with the recent.
Speaker 2: And across the country, there's recent you know, increased recent
Speaker 2: I guess hate we could call it towards LGBTQ people.
Speaker 2: I feel like in the past like decade or so,
Speaker 2: maybe there's been some some improvement to the public image
Speaker 2: or the public acceptance of at least gay and lesbian people,
Speaker 2: if not trans people. And and somebody who has lived
Speaker 2: that experience might correct me, and I hope that they
Speaker 2: do if I'm wrong, But recently in the past i'd
Speaker 2: say year and a half to two years that it's
Speaker 2: just yeah, it's just sort of swung back in the
Speaker 2: other direction, and it's I think perhaps it was said
Speaker 2: in this article but it's it's safe for trans people,
Speaker 2: especially trans kids, and the.
Speaker 1: Main place run by DeSantis exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I wanted to avoid using anyone's name, but
Speaker 2: like it. Yeah, especially in Florida. UH.
Speaker 4: With with the UH, I guess sort of.
Speaker 2: The leanings of of the people that are empower there
Speaker 2: and their views and how they view gay and trans
Speaker 2: people and groups that are already marginalized. It's the I
Speaker 2: think the fact that fey Watt is, you know, making
Speaker 2: a public statement saying like, hey, you know, remember that
Speaker 2: we are not alone. I'm sure it can feel very
Speaker 2: isolating when everything you're hearing in the news is just
Speaker 2: anti you rhetoric, Like everything is about how like you
Speaker 2: need to be cured or you're bad or broken or whatever.
Speaker 4: It is so for someone.
Speaker 2: To like have a loud reminder even like hey, you're
Speaker 2: not alone, you're not bad, you're not broken. Let's unite,
Speaker 2: you belong here, we want you here. I think that's
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, good on her, I think for
Speaker 2: that's an.
Speaker 1: Incredible message from her because she is so open and welcoming.
Speaker 1: Even just a little bit that I have seen from
Speaker 1: her as well,