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Dogmanencounters dot com forward slash podcast. Hey everyone, thanks so
much for tuning in to another livestream episode of Dogman
Encounters Radio. Really appreciate you listening. One of tonight's two
guests is probably one of the youngest guests we've ever
had on the show. He's thirteen years old. But kids
have encounters with dogmen two that goes that's saying, and
so that you know, both he and his mother, who's
also joining us tonight, they both want to remain anonymous.
So with that in mind, I'm just gonna call them
Kay and Jack. Let's bring them in here now, Kay
and Jack, thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 4: Hi Vick, thanks for having us, Thanks for having us.
Speaker 3: Well, it's great having you here. We appreciate your time.
Please give us a brief bio on yourself, Jack, and
then after you do that, then I'll have Kay do
the same.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 2: I'm originally from southeastern Michigan around the Detroit area. I
have always grown up hearing stories of dog men but
I'm thirteen years old and I I'm in middle school
and I'm living a good life right now.
Speaker 3: Well that's great. I can't ask any more than that.
How about you, k.
Speaker 5: So, yes, I've grown up and lived in Michigan my
whole life, except for six months of my life, I've
shortly lived in South Carolina. So i have two children,
thirteen and five, both boys. And I'm sorry, no.
Speaker 3: You're fine, take your time, but yeah, I.
Speaker 5: So I have two different child's fathers they call Jack's
dad lives in North Dakota, which is where our story
is going to lead us and our journey and leading
to that way. And I've so I've been all over
the eastern side of the United States, but during this
journey that the story is going to lead us to,
this was the first time I've actually gone west in
the United States. So it's going to least story.
Speaker 3: I'm glad you're able to make it out west. Yeah,
somebody who lives out east, I've been all over, and
I get jealous sometimes because the West has so much
to offer as far as sites and if you love
the outdoors, this seems to me like there's so much
more to do. But yeah, I mean, some people out
west fuel the opposite. So I guess it just depends
how you are when it comes to that.
Speaker 4: Jack.
Speaker 3: Before you and your dad had your first encounter together,
the two of you used to listen to the show.
How long had you two been listening, Well.
Speaker 2: We probably began listening back and I'd say late twenty
nineteen or early or sorry, late twenty eighteen or early nineteen.
Speaker 4: Yeah, around that time.
Speaker 3: Wow, you were young man, Yes, you were really young
back then. Did he introduce you to the show? Where
did you introduce it to him?
Speaker 2: Well, my dad had always heard of Bigfoot, and he
was looking up like Cryptids with his brother one day
and he came across your show and he showed it
to me, and ever since then we'd fallen in love
and listened to it every time I was with him.
Speaker 3: Wow, I'm glad you found out about it for more
reasons than one, because obviously you two went on to
have more than one encounter with one of these things.
So thank goodness you knew about it. Kay, Did you
know that your son, at that young of an age
was listening to a show like this, like Dog Mean Encounters?
Speaker 5: That's interesting that you asked that, so, yes, as much
as I may have discouraged it at a young age,
he's actually always had a curiosity toward I don't want
to say, like the supernatural, but like definitely toward big Foot.
And I didn't really know that dog Man existed actually
until his encounter happened. Like I really didn't honestly consider
those things to be real. And obviously, now that I
know that his encounter happened, like, I truly am a
believer and I've looked into it more. But I always
knew that he kind of had an interest in like Bigfoot,
and he was a kind of interest in like the
outdoors perspective of things.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I just kind.
Speaker 5: Of thought that it was I guess you can say
that I wasn't really a believer up until this really
experience happened.
Speaker 4: I am definitely, like without a doubt.
Speaker 5: I know one hundred percent that this is absolutely the
truth and there's no denying their existence. And yeah, I
can say that I actually am new to learning about
all of these experiences, and I'm trying to help him
deal with his experience through everything, because just going through
something like this, I mean, anybody having to experience anything
like this It can be terrifying, and you just I
guess you just do it day by day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's all you can do. And of course he's
so lucky to have you, and the fact that you're
so supportive, that's huge. That means so much, it really does.
One thing I'm wondering about, though, Jack, is if you
and your dad used to listen to the show for
all that time, why didn't she were your dad contact
me right after you had that first encounter together.
Speaker 2: Well, at the time, I went to visit my father
who was living in North Dakota, but when it happened,
I was only visiting him for about a month there
because I hadn't seen him in around two years. So
after the encounter occurred, I I was focusing on spending
time with him. I was planning on making a report,
but I didn't know if I had to be a
certain age, So we were planning on waiting until excuse me,
we were planning on waiting until I had gone back
to Michigan, and I was gonna wait maybe until I
was a little older. But since then I decided I
wanted to.
Speaker 3: Well that's understandable, and it still blows my mind. There's
so many little kids who listen to the show. Dog
Me and Encounters is not for kids. It never has been,
never will be. But at the same time, I do
try to keep it in mind that so many little
kids and I mean small listen to the show we
can week out with their parents like a ritual. So
considering what we're talking about here, there's only so much
you can do as far as precautions would go, and
I can only go to certain extremes to try to
make it so it's not too harsh on them. But yeah,
there are kids who were younger than you were when
you started listening that listen regularly. It just blows my mind,
it really does. Did your dad ever seem to have
any concerns about you listening to some of the more
frightening episodes of the show?
Speaker 4: Uh?
Speaker 2: Well, he kind of mostly listened to them with me,
but I think he was he made sure that I
sticked on like the more friendlier side at the time
when he listened, But when I listened to him alone,
I don't think he really knew that that I kind
of listened by myself sometimes, but yeah, he got he
made sure that I stayed on the more positive side.
Speaker 3: Huh, that's funny. You listening alone. I'll bet you he knew.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't be surprised listen to every single one of them.
Just don't tell your mom, that's what he would say.
Speaker 3: That's funny. All right, Jack, Please tell us about your encounters. Now,
give us every last detail that comes to mind.
Speaker 2: Well, the initial events that took place prior to the encounter,
Me and my family were planning on going on a
road trip from Michigan all the way to North Dakota
to visit my dad for the month of July, and
the encounter took place from.
Speaker 4: It was the night of the fourteenth and.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm trying to think it was the night of
the fourteenth the encounter happened, and then it kind of
led into August. But the events, we had drove from
Michigan all the way up from the Mackinaw Bridge across
and when we hit a deer along the way, which
is frightening. And after that we drove into Wisconsin, Minnesota,
and we reached North Dakota and through the first day
we were there. It was the fourth of July when
we arrived, which is actually a year today, ironically, after
that we kind of let off fireworks.
Speaker 4: The night I saw my dad.
Speaker 2: And we rested after a long trip, and I caught
up with him and I learned the place where he
was staying.
Speaker 4: What a landscape is The landscape, yeah, describe would have
set up.
Speaker 2: The town which what the event took place was a
very small town. It had around a population as seventy
five people. But most of the houses there are abandoned
and around are a lot of grass, plains and lakes everywhere.
It is the most beautiful state I've ever seen in
my entire life. I'd love to visit visit it again.
After the first night, settled in and my mom and
my grandmother stayed for a couple hours in the morning,
but they parted ways and drove back, and I planned
the month that I was going.
Speaker 4: To stay with my father.
Speaker 6: So what should I say next? Okay, Well, the day
that it happened to it, the days went.
Speaker 4: By out there.
Speaker 2: I was enjoying the summer with my dad and nothing
seemed out of the ordinary.
Speaker 4: Uh. He took me shooting.
Speaker 2: He bought me my own was it twenty two caliber
one shot rifle? He bought me that, So we went
shooting up there, enjoyed that, and then we had a
very close relationship to the neighbors next to our house
out there.
Speaker 4: So the night of the encounter, it was the fourteenth.
Speaker 2: Me and my father were walking home around nine thirty
ten o'clock at night from the neighbor's house and there's
this clearing between the bushes where we could walk through,
and our driveway had led right next to it. We
began walking and we were going home, and we were
going to go lie down since it was very late
out there, and we began hearing what I can only
describe as cats like howling, not as like an aggressive way,
but if they were being like attacked or being ripped
open or being eaten alive. And that may sound a
little graphic, but that's what it sounded like. And after
we heard that, my dad pulled out his hunting knife
and he had a pouch on and I kind of
stayed behind him, and we started to approach where the
sounds were coming from. And there was this old I
want to say it was abandoned, and the shack that
was overgrown, and there was a street light next to it.
I was shining over it barely worked but just illuminated
enough for the street to where you could see into
the brush a little bit. And this I will remember
for the rest of my life. A figure I want
to estimate about seven feet seven foot tall, dark, very dark,
and it had pointy ears. It was on its hind legs,
It was on standing on two legs, ran out from
behind the shack across this little dirt road and into
the other brush. It moved I estimate at speeds about
I can't even imagine.
Speaker 4: It was faster than I've ever seen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So after I saw that, I was frozen with fear,
and I could smell a lingering odor. It was very foul,
kind of reminded me of a skunk, but worse. I
was kind of frozen in place, and I looked at
my dad. But when the creature, which I believe now
obviously as a dog man, when after or when it ran,
my father was looking at me, so he didn't actually
see it run across the road. But after that happened,
I froze for about around I just six seconds.
Speaker 4: I started.
Speaker 2: I kind of turned towards my house, that my grandfather's house,
which we had been staying in, and I ran towards
the front door, but I didn't want to leave my
dad outside, so I was kind of peeking out the door,
asking him, what do you see?
Speaker 4: What do you see?
Speaker 2: And he responded to me, he said, I quote, it's
hopping towards me. It looks like it is a kangaroo,
And he didn't wasn't describing its appearance. He was describing
it was hopping at him towards the kangaroo, but it
was kind of behind the brush, so he couldn't just
see it that well, but he could tell it was hopping.
After that, he told me to go upstairs, so I
went upstairs. I was very frightful. I was worried that
he was going to get eaten or something. I was
worried about my dad. Well, he said that he went
inside and brought my little gun out and walked around
for about probably like three minutes, and he didn't see
it anymore, so it most likely darted away once it
saw him come back out.
Speaker 6: And the.
Speaker 4: Night ended.
Speaker 2: Fast forward a couple of days after the encounter happened. Yeah,
so I was after that had taken place, I had
been very fearful and I did not want to go
all alone out at night for that reason, but in particular,
there were also coyotes and snakes and all the other
things out there that I worried, But mostly the encounter
had shaken me up a lot, and my dad was
at the neighbor's next door. The second night we encountered,
and I was leaving my grandpa's house.
Speaker 4: I was shaking.
Speaker 2: It was dark already, probably around nine fifty ten o'clock.
I was walking to the neighbor's house to go get
my dad because I wanted him to come back to
my grandpa's house. So as I began walking, I didn't
want to turn around because I was I had a
weird feeling, and as that feeling began to set in,
I began hearing the cats howling again, and the cats.
The town is a very small town, so there's lots
of stray cats in the area, and the yeah, so
there's lots of stray cats. I'd seen a couple well
before the encounter happened, kind of crawling around the town,
and I knew those were the stray cats that were
being most likely attacked, so I began ran. After I
heard the cats being attacked, I began running towards the
neighbor's house, and I started to tear up because I
believed the creature could have been right behind me for
all I knew. So I started running towards the neighbor's
house and I heard loud, kind of I heard a
loud door opening, and it was my dad and the
neighbor peeking out sing what I was kind of crying about.
And he heard the cats and he immediately knew what
it was, so he told me get in the house now.
And my dad ran over to where the sound was
coming from. And I was scared, and the neighbor was
comforting me. We can call her miss A for her
initial So miss A was comforting me, and I was
calming down, and I was peeking out the window and
I'd slided the window open just to where I could
call out to my dad. And it was a very kind,
I want to say, foggy night that night. It was
kind of foggy, it was dark out, it was very quiet,
and I called to my dad and I asked him,
what do you see? And he told me, call your
grandfather and tell him to get his infant and get
his gun. So I did that, And this next part
I personally didn't witness, but this is what my dad
described to me, so uh.
Speaker 4: Who he said?
Speaker 2: He described that when he went over to the brush,
he had well, he and before I described this, he
had this little shack which was his workshop back there.
So he ran towards the brush, towards the shack kind
of and apparently he said he saw next to this
telephone poll this very tall set of eyes that were glowing,
and I believe yeah. He said they were red eyes,
like kind of amber orange reddish eyes. And the he
also said he saw the very sharp teeth that were
being reflected from the or the light was reflecting on
them from the telephone or the light pole. And the
thing the eyes he saw, he said they were close
to a telephone pole, so that he used for reference.
And he said that he estimated it was probably around
six to eight feet off the ground.
Speaker 4: And he told me that he had frozen with fear.
Speaker 2: He was terrified, and after the encounter took place, and
so he yelled me and I called my grandfather on
my cell phone. He fetched his gun and apparently they
went out and looked for it.
Speaker 4: And I don't know what.
Speaker 2: My dad was hesitant to tell me what happened afterwards.
Speaker 5: So if I may pipe in here, so, like, I
spoke to his dad, and he told me that he
called me actually and like in the middle of the night,
like terrified in this situation. And I've never heard such
fear come out of his voice before, but he was
absolutely terrified.
Speaker 4: And he told me that when him and his.
Speaker 5: Father went to go out to investigate that not only
did they find actual like they couldn't actually find it
when they were looking for it. It was like they
could not see it anywhere. But they actually found several
ripped apart carcasses of some animals like that they couldn't
really identify, but I would assume that they were probably
the cats. And he also said that they found some
like prints, some like prints in the mud that were
absolutely huge for any He said, it was not a
coyote print, it was not a wolf print, It wasn't
any sort of print that he's been able to identify.
But they they looked everywhere. But I mean, the fear
in his voice was absolutely true, and it scared me
because my son was with him, you know, and I
felt a little helpless because I'm halfway across the country
at this point, and he was actually scared and I've
never here heard him show fear to me before and
without any doubt, like there was no there. It wasn't
a joke, they weren't, you know. He called me in
the middle of the night to tell me that he
was scared, and that scared me a little bit because
I'm like, well, is my child safe with you? Like
is this gonna come back? Like did you find it?
And so it was just a little terrifying and a
little unsettling, and not to mention, you know, to find
some you know, leftover body parts of something that was eaten,
it's just a little unsettling to say the least.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, after that had happened, I was not gonna
walk back, even if I was with my dad. Yeah,
I trusted him, but I was scared. So I spent
the night at the neighbor's house that night, and the
next morning.
Speaker 4: I woke up and.
Speaker 2: I was scared, but my dad kind of calmed me
down in the morning. And about afternoon that day, we
went out there where he had seen the eye and
all that, and we began looking around and I had
actually seen like these prints.
Speaker 4: I thought from a glimpse that they might have been
like coyote or wolf.
Speaker 2: But they were very large and they were kind of
like I wouldn't say they were perfect, like they were
older than probably the night before, but they were strange.
Speaker 4: So I photographed them on my phone.
Speaker 2: And also the fear my dad showed recircling back to that.
Speaker 4: I had known my dad my.
Speaker 2: Whole life and I had never seen him scared at all.
So the fact that that he had shown fear scared
me that night because I could tell he was shaken
up when he got back. After they were looking around
for the creature. But I knew that I would be
safe if he was in the house with me either way,
because I trusted him. I trusted him with anything. But
we looked around some afternoon. We didn't find anything other
than some prince and kind of some cat what I
believe are cats. They were still mangled. They were small,
I want to say they were about the size of cats,
but they.
Speaker 4: Were mangled.
Speaker 2: Remains from I assume cats, you know. But that was
a little disturbing. So we left that area alone and
we walked back to.
Speaker 4: My grandpa's house.
Speaker 2: After that night, the encounters kind of died down, but
they picked back up a little bit shortly after.
Speaker 4: They well the remainder of the month that I was there.
Speaker 2: I left North Dakota on July twenty fifth, and I
came back to Michigan. But the after I'd left to
kind of die down. But my father, I had been
keeping a good contact with him, and he one night
he had sent me a video of the stars from
where his shack was.
Speaker 4: He was having a bonfire, and.
Speaker 2: I believed in the video he sent me his phone
was not the best quality, but it looked like a
figure was outlined where I initially had seen it the
first night when it ran across.
Speaker 4: It looked like a figure on two legs.
Speaker 2: But I wasn't one hundred percent sure, so I didn't
exactly put it off for nothing. I sent him a screenshot.
My dad will he he's out there, And shortly after
I sent him that screenshot, he began sending me voice recordings,
like he said, I and I twelve, there's something walking
around the barn right now, and he apologize to the
background noise or fireworks, but he told me he had
seen him or was it heard like branches snapping, and.
Speaker 5: That he had like an unsettling fear, like I'm over him.
Like sometimes, he said, he would be walking and like,
you know, you have to understand the landscape of where
this was, like it's desolate, there's nothing, it's planes, and
there's like there's like a town with just a couple
of houses and there's like nothing in between. It's very,
very very you don't remote.
Speaker 4: And so.
Speaker 5: He told me like he would always you know, he
had a dirt bike. He would always be out and about,
like going out and about. But like he said that
there was a couple of times that he would just
be walking or you know, on his dirt bike and
so forth, and he just felt like something was like strong,
he got the sense that something was strongly watching him.
And he said, like a couple of times, like I
got goosebumps, like the hair is on the back of
my neck rose, and I just knew, he said, it
just was a very unsettling feeling. And going back to
the odor, like he said, like I knew a couple
of times that there was something without a doubt, like
I thought that like I couldn't even move, I was
frozen in fear, he said, a couple of times like
and and I knew that there was something watching me
from the Woods. He said, like, I couldn't see it.
I looked, but I knew it. He said, I just
had that feeling. The hair is on the back of
my neck rose, then he said, and then a couple
of times that he said, he just the smell. He
would get this like it was like almost like rotting
flash or rotting me, like just or a wet dog.
Speaker 4: And he's like and.
Speaker 5: At that point he would tell me that he would
just immediately, you know, go back to his house and
so forth. But there was definitely a presence there that
I know that it was very unsettling to the people there.
I'm not exactly sure because I'm not from that town
in that area about how many other people in that
area had experiences, but I absolutely know that he.
Speaker 4: Had one.
Speaker 5: And even so it affected my son when he came
back to Michigan. I can say that, like even now
we he doesn't realize that it affected him as much
as it did. But I can say from being his mom, like,
you know, we have a separated garage from our house
and so forth, and I will tell him, hey, go
get an extension court or go get this side of
the garage, and and it'll be like I don't want
to go outside right now. And I know that it's
from that fear, from that because he never had that
fear before. And so that's a little bit hard to
deal with. Like that's something that we're working on, you know.
And all you can do is just you know, try
to be supportive, like you know, speaking with you know
you and hearing about other people's experiences on your show.
That has actually helped tremendously because you know, you're not
alone in it, you know that, And some people just
straight up dismiss you in these situations. But I can
sit here and a test you know, I am a
thirty three year old woman that has two children, and
I can attest that this happened.
Speaker 4: To him, and it it's.
Speaker 5: A little to know that they're out there and they're real,
and just you never know when you're going to come
across it. Like I grew up actually in Michigan, where
I guess now I've learned that a lot of the
counters have actually happened in my area.
Speaker 4: But I mean I grew up going.
Speaker 5: On the boat, you know, in the woods, boating, camping,
doing all the things that you can do. And you know,
I as a child never came across something like this before.
I mean, I may may have had a couple like
strange experiences in my life, but I can't say that
I've actually experienced seeing something or experiencing it personally. But
I know that my son did and that's something that
I try to help him deal with every single day.
And it's hard because, I mean, even though you know
he is here, he hasn't been her. He's walking and
he's alive. But you know, how would you feel with
a seven foot creature with sharp teeth on hind legs
standing in front of you that's not supposed to exist?
Then it's just I guess, like, what do you do?
Where do you go from here? How do you feel
with that? So that's where we're at right now, and
that's what we're trying to do. Is you know, a
year later, here we are, you know, we're finally talking
about it. It took us a year to come out
and share our experience or his experience about what happened.
Speaker 4: And it's been a little bit of a ride.
Speaker 5: But it's just I guess, you know, talking about it
and taking it day by day helps us deal with it.
And I want to help him be able to heal
from this so that you know, as he grows and
gets older, he can go camping and you know, do
things without being in fear of, you know, coming across
one of these creatures again, I ad anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, getting back to the night, it was probably midnight
or one in the morning, I was up having texting
with my dad and he was sending me voice recordings
of things he was hearing. And it's kind of hard
to make out because he was kind of not really
like focusing on talking and.
Speaker 4: The audio is very difficult to hear.
Speaker 2: But yeah, for what he sent me, I could hear
like branches snapping, not the best, but when he was
sending it to me, I was kind of out of
it since it was around midnight one in the morning.
Speaker 4: But after that.
Speaker 2: I hadn't really heard anything else about that, and that
was it kind of one of the last times that
I had heard any strange activity out there. I don't
know if I had mentioned this yet, but unfortunately my
father passed away come August, so it's been a hard
deal with that. If he was I wish he was here,
but you know, he's Sometimes these things are hard.
Speaker 4: They got to deal with them and what else did I.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so him losing his father has also, like so
we're trying to deal with an experience like this when
he gets home and then immediately after that his father
passed away.
Speaker 4: And so I guess I don't want to say.
Speaker 5: That it overshadowed the experience, but I mean the grief
that he is going through and still goes through and everything,
it's been hard. And and it's also you know, you
have these things that plague is nightmares, and so it's
a little bit because I'm not there, I wasn't exactly
there to help him to say, hey, you know, I experienced.
Speaker 4: This like I seen it. It's gonna be okay.
Speaker 5: But you know, we just start doing the best that
we can day by day, and I can that's really
all that you can do.
Speaker 4: But yes, it has been hard.
Speaker 5: So I guess another reason if you can wonder why
you know, we didn't come forward or he didn't come
forward before this with his experiences, Yeah, that that was
something that kind of overshadowed it at the time, was
with the loss of him, and but we just started
trying to, you know, remain positive and just I really
want to help him. I'm hoping that the show and
being able to speak about it, and this is the
first time that he's actually come out and fully told
his story other than to me and to you, that
this is going to help him move forward and that
we can go camping again and we can't experience the
finer things, you know, without having the fear of it
because it's been it has been hard, and I know
other people have experienced it. But one thing that has
helped me is communicating with other people that have had experiences,
knowing that he's not alone in this situation, like he's
not the only one that's done this, like you know,
I mean, he's one hundred person on imagining it that
I can attest to, Like, I know that this is real,
And that's a little bit unsettling to know too, that
you know there's a reality to this that you know
a lot of people, I guess unless you experience it,
or go through or have somebody that went through this experience,
it's really hard to acknowledge these things because who would
want to acknowledge something like this, that these creatures are
real and exist. I mean I know that I didn't
before this happened.
Speaker 3: Well, the world's much friendlier safer place when dog men
don't exist. But as you know now, unfortunately they do.
Speaker 5: Absolutely they do, and whether we want them to be
real or not, they absolutely are. And that's something that
I feel is important that you're doing here, Vic, is
you're doing something really special in this world by making
people aware of it, because whether they're harming us or not,
it's really important that people know that it is true,
because I mean, I can't imagine if it was me
in this situation coming across something that's seven foot tall
that has razor sharp things with red eyes, I probably
would have dropped dead right then and there.
Speaker 4: I think. I don't know, but I guess, you know,
I'm just.
Speaker 5: I think it's a good thing that people know, and
being aware of things can help you to you know.
I don't know if it makes it easier. I don't
know if anything encountering something a dog man would ever
be easy. But I think that what you're doing is
very important, and I think that people need to know
the truth because the reality is as these creatures are
real and they do live, and it doesn't matter who
you are, how old you are, you can come across them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, isn't that the truth? Unfortunately, and that's one of
the biggest problems. That's one of the things that gives
eye witnesses so much trouble coming to terms with their experiences.
The fact that ever since they learn how to comprehend
the spoken word, it's hammered into their heads that things
like this don't exist. So when they do have an
encounter with one, that's one of the biggest reasons why
they get so thrown for a loop because they just
can't wrap their minds around what they're looking at. So, yeah,
it's just great to have a platform where we can
get this word out, the fact that these things are real,
they're definitely out there, and that anyone could have a
dog mean an encounter unfortunately, Jack, I'll tell you what,
when they're passing out moms, you sure hit the line,
do you know that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I always tell her that she's the best mom
in the world.
Speaker 3: He is to me, Yeah, she's definitely a keeper. Sounds
like your dad was too.
Speaker 4: He was he was quite the guy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he sure sounds like it. Those candid prints that
you found, how big would you say they were?
Speaker 2: Well, if I had to estimate, I kind of put
my hand up to them.
Speaker 4: And it was just about, if not bigger as my hand.
Speaker 2: It was like wider than my hand, and it was
about the size of my hand, so very very large.
Speaker 5: What his dad described it to me as like because
he actually sent me a picture of one of the prints,
like you and you, and he said that they were
not only were they large, but he said they were deep.
What was alarming about it, he said, I've never seen
a print that went that deep, almost like like it
had I don't want to, I don't want to speculate,
but like if it had talents or something that curved down,
he said, the prince went deep. He's like, I've seen
big prints before, I've seen moose, I've seen whatever. But
not only was the print extremely large, but what was
alarming about it was how deep the print was, almost
like something had pressed deeply, like whether it be tailans,
claws or whatever, it had made an imprint, you know,
a couple of inches into the earth. And It's like,
I've never known anything like that, maybe to make a
print like that before, even bears. I've seen bear prints before.
I've been in the up and I've you know, been
in the most remote areas of the Up and so forth.
Speaker 4: And even so they don't go that deep.
Speaker 5: There's still you know, you can still tell what a
bear print is, but there also aren't bears in the
specific area of the region of North Dakota that we
were actually located in. But it was definitely not a
print that I had ever recognized before. And I've seen
a lot of different prints and creatures I've gone hunting,
I've seen a lot of different things before, and it
was not one that I had recognized. And not only that,
but I would say that it was at least two
a handprints of a large I would say, a large
person's hand wide and it was a very deep print,
and it was a little unsettling to say the least.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sure it was. And if those prints were
that big, then that precludes the chance that could have
been left by a normal canid, because the biggest canid
prints that have ever been found by a timberwolf for
six inches long but five inches wide. Of course, a wolf,
any wild kine, it is going to have more of
an elongated print versus a dog's print's gonna tend to
be more round. But yeah, that biggest print that's ever
been found again, it was only six inches long and
five inches wide. What you're describing is quite a bit
bigger than that, so that really narrows down what it
could have been what we're talking about here.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then going back to the remains that were
found like that, you know, and I'm a cat person,
so this is a little hard for me to talk about.
But he when I spoke to his dad, he had
called me, like I said, in like other than the
fear and panic in his voice, he said like, just
like I think Jack did a good job describing it.
But you know, when something is like being hurt or
being attacked, like that screeching noise that an animal can
let off, like well hearing that, and then after the
situation happened, like it was very unsettling, like they couldn't
even identify what was left of whatever. There was just
some small remains, let's just say, like for maybe something
I don't want to get too grotesque, like some intestines,
and it was kind of scattered, and it's like, uh, yeah,
it's just a little unsettling to think about.
Speaker 4: I guess, yeah, that is unsettling.
Speaker 3: Kay. I can only imagine being as far from him
as you were when he started having these encounters had
to be so frustrating and difficult to deal with. How
did you deal with that?
Speaker 5: So I actually was so close that like I actually
tried to jump on a plane. I was. I actually
was like, oh, I'm done with this. You know, you're
coming home. And actually something I don't know if you
remember back to was it July or August that you
came back.
Speaker 4: I came on July. Okay, so back in July, like
right when he was supposed to.
Speaker 5: So what had happened was I was supposed to drive
him to North Dakota and he was supposed to fly
home on the unaccompanied minor thing where you pay for
a plane ticket for them to be unaccompanied and then
they you know, they can fly by themselves. And so
that that day came and gone, and what what had
happened was I don't know if everybody remembers this happening,
but there was some sort of bio hack in Texas
or something that shut Delta airlines down for like two days.
They had no flights at all, Like actually was probably
closer to five days. And I had actually gone to
war with the airline over it. But I couldn't get
a flight there and he couldn't get a flight back.
So I actually I felt very helpless because I was
half a country away and I couldn't do anything about it.
There was actually like they delayed his flight like three
or four times before he was actually able to even
return back home. But like I couldn't get a plane
ride there, and there was no and it's a very desolate,
remote area, so there's not a lot of flights, Like
there's only like one or two airlines that I think
flies into this airport in North Dakota.
Speaker 4: We flew it Bismarck Airport.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was Bismarck, and there's only about two airlines,
major airlines that fly there. It's not like you can
get a spirit airlines there. They don't even go there,
so you really only have the option of their air
lines that you have to go there. So I really,
as much as I wanted to go there, I was
ready to get in my car and start driving another
twenty four hours there, but somehow I didn't, so we
made it through. But it was very tempting, especially after
hearing about what happened. All you want to do is
protect your you know, your loved ones and your child,
and yeah, it was really hard for me.
Speaker 4: I can honestly say that I.
Speaker 5: Was a wreck for a few days after I heard
about this and not being able to get there. It
was a little I was a wreck. I won't put
it any other way. So I was not put together.
Speaker 3: I'll bet you were a racked. Had to be so
hard to deal with. I can only imagine when you
and your dad had that first encounter, Jack, did you
get the impression that it bolted behind that shack because
of you two being there, or do you think I
might have done that for some other reason.
Speaker 2: I think it it obviously knew we were there, otherwise
it wouldn't have shown itself. I do truly believe that
it ran across from behind a shack and brush, and
like the trees, I think it ran there. I think
it was trying to make give us fear and scare
us away because it was probably having a.
Speaker 4: Meal on the cats.
Speaker 2: It was probably having its dinner basically, and we interrupted
it and it was not happy, so it wanted to
scare us the way.
Speaker 4: That's what I personally think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're probably right, You're probably spot on. How about
the second encounter when you were alone, how far did
you have to run to get to your neighbor's house.
Speaker 2: Well, basically the house that my grandpa and my dad
and me lived in. It was this small, old farming
house and it was on this gravel driveway and alongside,
if you're facing the front of the house, on the
right side, there's this like a big like I don't
want to say hedge, but it's like a bunch of
trees lined up to where like you can't really squeeze
darrel on the corner where to the front and the
side intersect of the hedge, it's cut open, like so
you get someone to walk through. And it was a
very used path and it led into like a little
ditch or whatever and you could jump over, And so
I had. I walked out down the steps onto the
gravel driveway probably about.
Speaker 4: I want to say, like.
Speaker 2: Maybe like ten feet to the opening, and then I
as I just passed through the opening, I began hearing
the cat, the cat's powling or whatever sound it was.
Speaker 4: I can't really put it into words, but.
Speaker 2: After I heard that, I began bolting like as fast
as I could, and I probably ran from the opening
to the back door of the neighbor's house which everyone used.
It was probably maybe like twenty five to thirty feet,
maybe a little longer, maybe a little less.
Speaker 3: I'll bet that seemed like it must have been two
hundred yards or two miles.
Speaker 2: It felt like I was running for like twenty minutes.
It was a nightmare.
Speaker 5: I feel like your heart was beating out of your chest. Yeah,
giving me imagine I probably like would have just frozen.
If it was me, I probably would have just frozen
and died right there. I don't know, out of fear.
So I got to give you credit.
Speaker 4: You no one.
Speaker 2: I watched a couple of years back. The reason I
didn't freeze at that moment. I watched a couple of
years back. It was some dog man interview on a show.
Some words the person said. They said, if you freeze,
you died. I didn't know if this thing was trying
to hurt me at the time or whatever, and I
don't know where it was, so I just bolted. I
knew if I freezed, I probably would be honor. So
I just ran and the I was so happy that
like the when I saw my dad and the neighbor
peak their face out the back door and like they said,
get in the house.
Speaker 4: He's like, what is that? Dude? He said like that,
He said, dude, what is that?
Speaker 2: And I got in to the back door and I
went up from the kitchen and watched out the window.
Like I said earlier, but it was very fearful, and
I'm just glad that I made it safely.
Speaker 4: And yeah, well.
Speaker 3: I'm glad you did too, Thank Goodness for that. Did
you have any concerns for your dad and grandpa's safety though,
when they headed out to look for the dog man?
Speaker 4: Very much?
Speaker 2: I said, Dad, I don't want you going out there,
or something along those lines.
Speaker 4: I was very worried for him and my grandpa.
Speaker 2: I knew my grandpa had a very large gun, but
I was still very worried about them.
Speaker 4: Even if you have a gun, it.
Speaker 2: Could still get hurt or possibly killed if that thing,
if you really make it angry. So I was worried
about him, but he insisted and he went to check
it out. And then I called my grandpa because my
grandpa still had no idea. He was playing like he
was playing yachtzi with his friend. I was playing with
them before I actually left the house. But yeah, so
I called my grandpa. He got his gun. I was
very worried for the safety. But they were okay luckily,
So yeah, I was worried though.
Speaker 3: I'll bet you were. He was rattled by his encounters obviously,
But how did your husband seem to handle his encounters
after all the dust settled from each one?
Speaker 5: Kay?
Speaker 3: Oh, can you hear me? Okay, now I can? Did
you hear that question?
Speaker 4: Yes? I did, so, I would honestly say.
Speaker 5: One thing I can say about him is he was
always kind of a fearless person. Like I'd never really
seen him afraid of too many things. So like after
it happened, and like for him to actually call me
and tell me that he was scared, like that scared me.
And and after that, I think it I want to
say that it definitely affected him his mental health. He
I don't think he let on because you don't want
to let on how much you know something. You don't
want to show fear to your kids, and you know,
you don't want them to know really what you're going through.
And that's your job as a parent is to try
to you know, be the strong one, and did not
show fear and this and that. But like he led
on to me how much it affected him and how
much has scared him. And I think that he I
know that he had trouble sleeping at night, like I
know that Jack has trouble sleeping at night. It's I
know that he was afraid to go outside alone after that,
like without a weapon. And but he I mean, I
think it affected him a little bit more than he
tried to let on because for him to be so
unsettled for because he wouldn't want me to be afraid of,
you know, the well being of our son at the time.
And for him to let on that there was a
security threat or or in any sort of threat had
to have been a real, real, bothersome situation for him
to tell me, because otherwise he wouldn't have half the
half the time they do that, they do things they
don't want to tell me about it or whatever, like
we're going to go. You know, I wasn't exactly sure
about Jack going on and letting off shooting off guns
in this young of.
Speaker 4: Age and this and that.
Speaker 5: And he's like, well, I got him, you know, you know,
a shotgun, and we're gonna go and do this. And
he didn't want to let me know about it. But
and I'm like well, you know, being you know, I'm
not really sure about that and so forth.
Speaker 4: But you know, for the.
Speaker 5: Most part, he didn't really want to tell me when
they were doing things and so forth, especially anything that
would be remotely considered dangerous. But for him to let
on that he was scared and for what he's seen absolutely,
I know affected him mentally. And I know that he
had a hard time sleeping. I know after that he
was plagued, just some nightmares. I know that be a fact.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm sure he was. That doesn't come as a
surprise either. Your mom told us about how you used
to love to ride your dirt bike in the woods
before you have these experiences, but present day, I know
you're not doing it right now, but do you see
a time down the road when you're going to be
able to do that again?
Speaker 2: Well, right now kind of live like a suburb area,
and uh, it was actually my cousins that was out there,
and I was only able to use it for the
time being. But I did own previous ones here in
Michigan when my dad lived like kind of towards in
the countryside. But I am looking to buying a dirt
bike or four wheelers sometime in the future, and I
will take it on a trail, probably not that remote,
but somewhere, you know, where I could still ride, be closer.
Speaker 3: To Oh we lost you can hear me? Hello, Okay,
now I hear you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we actually talked about taking a trip up to
the up and you know, either going on a store
like we used to go stomopiling and so forth, or
dirt bikes, four wheelers and so forth.
Speaker 4: Then that was.
Speaker 5: Something that he was like, are you sure, Mom, Like
that is probably a good area where you know they reside.
And we also hit a deer in our It was
actually my mom's brand new car. She had it for
less than a month. Like on the way to North Dakota.
We actually went from Michigan to North Dakota, and we
drove and we went through the Upper Peninsula. And I
don't know if anybody's familiar with the Upper Peninsula of Michigan,
but that's about as remote and desolate as you can get.
There is nothing but pretty much what's up there. And yeah, well,
right after we crossed over the Macadab Bridge, we actually are.
It was on the fourth of July a year ago.
Speaker 4: Today.
Speaker 5: It's kind of weird. It's the anniversary of it that
we're speaking of it. But we actually we were driving
and it was very it was a very foggy, foggy
night and it was yeah, about one point thirty in
the morning on a holiday, and we actually like we
got our GPS signal died out and we were in
the middle of nowhere, and so like I added up
on this dirt road and I mean we're talking like
if you were ever driving on it, you have to
picture it from a horror scene. It was just it
was foggy, like so you could only see about an
inch in front of your face, and there's woods just
on like there's you know, and the grass isn't cut.
And so I'm I'm looking and I'm looking, and you know,
there was a deer and it jumped out in front
of me and and we hit it. And my mom's
brand new car that she had for less than a
month actually, and after we hit the this was on
our way to North Dakota, before this experience happened, and
that I had my five year old and you know,
my Jack in the car and my mom and I
got out of the car and I'm like, please, God,
please let it still run. Please let it still run,
because I knew being where I was, I said, oh
my goodness, like, there's we can't get a toe company here.
It's a holiday. For one, we have no cell phone service,
and pretty much I knew that when you have roadkill also,
when you have a dead deer on the side of
the road, it also draws other creatures, you know, to
where you are. So I was actually fearful at that
point in time before we even got there. I'm like, Okay,
this is going to attract bigger predators. So we were
lucky to get out of that situation. But going back
to your question about like the trip to the up
and so forth, it's like, well, after this experience happened,
Jack was like, I'm not really sure that we should
go there, Mom, I'm not really sure.
Speaker 4: Like so he has like it has been.
Speaker 5: I don't even think he fully acknowledges it, but it's
subconsciously there his fear over it. I'll ask him to
so I'll get an extension cord out of the garage
or something in the middle of the night and he'll
be like, oh no, like I don't want to go
outside right now. And I know that that wasn't like
this before his experience happened.
Speaker 3: Well, that's natural fallout. In time, I think that's going
to get better. Also, the fact that he's so young too,
I mean, he's only got so many experiences in his
life to fall back on. But I mean that's not
to say that people with quite a few years under
their belts don't have a lot of struggles too. But yeah,
I think it's going to get better in time. It
just takes time to wrap your mind around this. Really,
it's how it normally goes. Well, i'll tell you what.
Let's ask some questions from the listeners in the live
chat now. The first one is from ann Console and
An wants to know did you believe in Dogman before
your experience? Well, at the top of the show, Jack
told us about how he and his dad used to
listen to the show. I think since he was so
the answer to that is a resounding yes. And then
the next question is from Christy. Christy wants to know
what was the scariest part of your encounters.
Speaker 2: The scariest part of the encounters It was probably not
knowing if I was going to encounter again, if I
was alone, or if it was going to come back
when I was not expecting it, or if who was
watching us that it was probably not knowing where it
resided and when it could appear.
Speaker 4: That was most likely it, believe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one of those pick'em type questions here. I'm
sure there are so many things that were so frightening
about those encounters that you can almost take your pick.
And there's something I want you to never lose sight
of here, Jack, and that is that thing. It outclassed
you physically in so many ways. It's weapons of destruction.
It had you so outclassed that way also that if
it wanted to get you and your dad it would have.
You never could have gotten away from those things when
you had multiple encounters there. So the reason why you
two got out of those encounters without a scratch is
because of what it did or didn't want to do,
not what you did. It wasn't a matter of you
guys saving yourselves. You didn't do anything to save yourselves.
Not to say that you had that mindset that that's
how it was. But I just want to make sure
you understand that the reason why you weren't harmed is
everything to do with has everything to do with the
fact that the dogmen you encountered did not want to
harm you, So yeah, please try to keep that in mind.
The next question is from ann Console and she wants
to know could you tell if it was a girl
or a.
Speaker 2: Boy from how fast I could or well, how fast
it ran. I'm sorry I could not tell.
Speaker 4: It was dark.
Speaker 2: It ran across the road within a split of a second.
It could have than anything. There's no telling. But yeah,
unfortunately I don't have the answer to that.
Speaker 3: Oh sure, I mean, it all happens so fast. It
sounds like that. Yeah, you're doing good to see any
details at all. I'm impressed that you noticed what you did,
so you deserve credit for that, you really do. This
next question is from angel Wake and she wants to know, Jack,
now that you've encountered the dog man or dog men,
do you think you feel more equipped if you have
another experience with one.
Speaker 4: Oh, definitely. If I do go, I'm going to.
Speaker 2: But when I do go into the outdoors or the forest,
no matter where, I will always bring.
Speaker 4: At least a pocket knife on me.
Speaker 2: At least I will not go into the woods without
a little pack at least of like a survival pack,
or at least without any sort of small knife.
Speaker 4: But I will always go.
Speaker 2: When I'm old enough to get my firearms license, I
will go into the woods and I will a firearm
with me, so I will always go equipped.
Speaker 3: Well, you're not going to do any good trying to
let the wind out of a dog mean that you
have an encounter with. So yeah, you'd probably cause more
harm than good if you tried to do that. And
almost every gun you're going to take out there isn't
going to get the job done when it comes to
one of these things if it really needed to protect you.
So please keep that in mind. Also, But I think
it's good.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I think it's just for more like it comforts
me knowing I have it better would probably just help
my mind be at ease.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense, as long as you don't allow
that to cause you to do something that you don't
have any business doing. I say, and I've said it
for a long time now, if you carry a gun
into dog meing country and you do have a dog
mean encounter, you're actually more likely to be harmed or
killed than if you don't have a gun in your
hands or in your possession, because in a lot of
cases having that gun, it makes you think that, Okay,
well I can use this gun to protect myself. It's
almost full proof. And in a lot of cases, if
you shoot these guys, they've got a sense of vengeance
like you wouldn't believe. So, I mean a bluff charge
that was just a bluff charge. It never intended to
actually follow through. Well, if you shoot one of these things,
and there's every possibility they will follow through, So just
something to keep in mind. This next question for you
is from Bang Bang and she wants to know do
you think you're being stalked?
Speaker 2: H Personally, I don't believe we're being stalked. I think
it was just maybe the wrong place at the wrong time.
But when we had that first encounter, I do think
the dog men are whatever knew that we were there
and it wanted to provoke a reaction and possibly just
let us know that it was there.
Speaker 4: But I do not believe we're being stalked.
Speaker 3: Personally, Yeah, I mean, if you were being stalked, I
think they would have followed through a lot more than
what they did. So I think that answers that question
pretty well. The next one up on deck is from
blood VIPA, and he wants to know, did you sense
them before you saw them?
Speaker 2: Well, I've always grown up and my dad has always
told me, if the woods or wilderness ever goes quiet,
there's a large predator nearby. And it was kind of quiet,
But I wasn't really paying attention to that because I
knew me and my dad we having a conversation on
our way back. But before I heard the cats howling
and we actually saw the thing, I didn't really have
a sense that anything was wrong other than it was
kind of eerie out. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I wondered about that. From the way you explained everything
panned out, it sounded like you didn't have any feeling
that they're even around until you saw them. So that
answer is that. The next one up is from Christy.
Christy wants to know, did a good quiet right before
you saw it?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 2: Like with oh, uh the wood's going quiet? Is that
what you think?
Speaker 4: Uh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it?
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was kind of quiet because there wasn't really
that much wildlife out there. There were like some patches
of trees, but it mostly fields.
Speaker 4: It was already quiet, but I think it was like
really quiet.
Speaker 2: The only thing I could uh, hear was kind of
my dad's voice, but it was pretty quiet, and then
the cats started howling.
Speaker 3: Huh. You know that's how it goes Sometimes sometimes it
gets quiet. Other times you have an encounter and the
ambient noises don't drop off, so you never really know.
There is no rhyme nor reason to that. This next
one is from Scott Baker, and Scott wants to know
did the dog man have a tail?
Speaker 2: It was hard to see, but I do believe it
did have a tail. It wasn't on its hind legs.
It moves so fast I really couldn't tell, but it
did look like it had something behind it, kind.
Speaker 4: Of on his rear.
Speaker 2: I just couldn't tell. I do believe it did have
a tail, though it's not one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: Well, like I said, I mean, it moves so fast.
On both occasions, you're doing good to make out any details,
so I think you did a good job noticing what
you did. This next one up is from blood Vite,
but he wants to know did you smell anything from them?
Speaker 2: Yes, there was a rank odor. I didn't smell it
right before it appeared, but after it had ran through
I did smell it and then the second night, I
had also smelled it, but it was kind I wanted
It's really hard to describe it. It was kind of it's
like a skunk and like wet dog and kind of
just like is something rotting?
Speaker 4: And that was kind of a way to describe it.
But yes, there was a smell from it.
Speaker 3: That's another thing. Sometimes you smell or rancid odor, and
other times eyewitnesses don't smell anything, So there's no rhyme
or reason to that either. This next one, the second
to last question of the night, is from Angela. It's
a good question. She wants to know when the dog
man ran, did it bob up and down or did
it glide like on a skateboard.
Speaker 4: It kind of.
Speaker 2: It kind of like bobbed up and down, like it
was like kind of like jumping or like running and
jumping across, like it moved very fast on its two legs.
But yeah, I kind of bobbed up and down while
I was running.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like a sasquatch, they normally don't just glide.
They do tend to bob when they ambulate like that.
Got one more question for you, and this one is.
Speaker 1: From Grave Dank and they want to know have there
been any stories or reports in the town or surrounding area,
of course about dog men.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: After Well, while I was there, I didn't really get
a chance to ask anyone. Also, I was a little
bit shaken up since it happened recently, and Plus is
the town of the very small populations, about seventy five people.
But I didn't hear anything from any of the residents there.
But after I had left, I had searched up online
strange occurrences around the town, and it said there were
some weird sightings a couple of years back, but I
didn't really say exactly what it was.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's all right. It's hard to dig up infiel
like that on any particular area. So I think you
did a good job finding out what you did well.
Before we get out of here, I want to get
closing comments from both of you. Want at a time, Jack,
you please go first.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, Can you repeat what you asked? Sure?
Speaker 3: Please give us any closing comments that you have. You
go first.
Speaker 2: Jack. Okay, if you do happen to believe that you're
gonna see a dog man, I'd just say that, just
keep calm, And.
Speaker 4: I don't know I'm not good at speeches.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but have a night and happy forth of July.
Speaker 3: Well, a lot of people weren't good speeches, so it's
not just you now.
Speaker 5: I think you get it grows up in the beginning
of it during my bio, so I apologize about that,
but you know, I thought I was good to go.
So my my comments here is if you are a
parent and you have a child or anybody that you
know that has an experience like this, then please don't
just dismiss it because you know it really can affect them,
and you need to also whether you've seen it with
your own eyes or not, Like I think people can
tell when people are telling the truth and are going
through certain situations. So just don't if you think that
all these things aren't real, and you know that's what
I used to believe. It's just you know, keep an
open mind to things because you know, you never know
who in your life, whether it be your child or
other people that may go through an experience like this,
and just remember just to try to be as supportive
as you can and try to be there for them
because it is a truly terrifying situation and you never
know what you would do when you were in it,
So just try not to be judgmental of others as well.
Speaker 3: That's all, very well said, very well said. It sure
would be nice if more eyewitnesses had supporting people behind
them in their lives like you. I'll tell you what, kay,
I'm awfully impressed. And Jack, I told you before several times.
I'm so impressed by how you're handling all this. I mean,
only being thirteen years old, you deserve a lot of credit,
you really do.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Vick, Oh, you're welcome. Just don't it like it is though.
But having said that, both of you, thanks so much
for coming on sharing the details of those experiences with us.
Really appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having us. Thank you.
Speaker 3: Oh, you're welcome. You are welcome. Well. Having said that,
thanks again so much for coming on, and have a
great night you too. Thanks, we'll see you all right.
That's another one in the books. Was that a shotgun
one of these yah hues is shooting off out here?
Speaker 4: Anyway?
Speaker 3: Thanks against so much for listening everybody. I really appreciate
you listening on this challenging July fourth episode of the show.
I really do. But before I get out of here
If you've had a dogman encounter that you either need
help dealing with, or maybe you want to come on
the show and share your experience with the listeners, please
go to dogmandancounters dot com submit a report, and if
you do that then I'll be happy to contact you
to schedule a phone consultation. But having said that, thanks
against so much for listening and have a great night.
Speaker 2: Years English