WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.759 Oh hey, it's the leg that's asleep and waking it 2 00:00:02.839 --> 00:00:04.839 up is only going to feel worse. Ali ward, and 3 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:08.080 we're deep into autumn. A few weeks ago we talked trash, 4 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:11.160 and today we're dishing dirt. We got a soil episode. 5 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:14.640 So what is soil made of? Why it's different colors, 6 00:00:14.919 --> 00:00:18.559 what it smells like, if you should rub it on yourself? 7 00:00:18.760 --> 00:00:21.160 What happens after you mind stuff out of soil? Do 8 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:23.559 you need a PhD to be a dirt expert? What 9 00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:27.120 is dirt versus soil? Is mud? Soil is clay? And 10 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:29.000 how long does it take a soil scientist to go 11 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:31.920 for a chalk So this indigenous pianologist is someone I've 12 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:34.000 wanted to shout with for years and is so deeply 13 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:38.119 revered and respected in her field. In her actual field 14 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:41.960 doing field work, they have an associate's degree in biology, 15 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:46.479 an undergrad degree in Environmental science, Technology and Policy in 16 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:50.000 a minor in chemistry from California State University, Monterey Bay, 17 00:00:50.399 --> 00:00:53.759 and just got a PhD from the University of Arizona 18 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:58.520 in soil microbiology with a minor in American Indian policy. 19 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:01.320 So this ologist is now to doing a postdoc in 20 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:05.239 community environment and policy, the University of Arizona and Tucson. 21 00:01:05.480 --> 00:01:09.280 And the most gruntable coincidence is that, after all these 22 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:13.120 years waiting and waiting and finally just recording remotely, I'll 23 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:16.200 be in Tucson this week visiting Jared's grandma. SOO so two. 24 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:18.319 Some people get at me. Also, thank you to everyone 25 00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:21.840 who's submitted questions for this via patreon dot com slash ologies. 26 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:24.840 A dollar a month gets you in that club. Thank 27 00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:27.719 you also to everyone who tells friends and subscribes and 28 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:30.959 rates and leaves reviews that has helped Ology stay at 29 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:32.799 the top of the science charts. And I appreciate it 30 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:35.480 so much that I read all the reviews and then 31 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:38.120 I pick one to whisper at you, like this fresh 32 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:40.920 one from the Zebra Emoji reviewer, who wrote, I feel 33 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:43.120 like if I randomly ran into Ali at a sketchy 34 00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:45.840 gas station, I would recognize her immediately and she would 35 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:47.799 probably give me some of her cheetohs she just bought. 36 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:51.079 And those are facts I would so thank you for those. 37 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:54.239 Let's get into the episode. Indigenous comes from the Latin 38 00:01:54.319 --> 00:01:58.159 meaning sprung from the land our native and peedology comes 39 00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:00.920 from the Greek word for ground or earth, and this 40 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:04.920 particular ologist is a perfect fit for this episode, which 41 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:08.080 coincidentally it is coming out during November, which is Native 42 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:11.960 American Heritage Month. So yes, let's listen, let's learn, celebrate, 43 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:18.280 and let's get dirty with soil microbiologist, researcher, data scientist, runner, filmmaker, 44 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:21.879 and indigenous pedologist Lydia Jennings PhD. 45 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:41.120 Hi. 46 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:44.639 Everyone, my name is Lydia Jennings and I go by 47 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:47.599 she her pronouns. I'm a serian of the Oswa, Yackey 48 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:51.639 and Mutual Nations. My dog is Salchica. She's right here 49 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:54.439 at my feet because she's my partner in crime. 50 00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:58.159 When I first met you, you're Lydia Jennings. You're now 51 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:01.240 doctor Jennings, very doctor Jennings. 52 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.199 Now, it's been a journey that it finally. 53 00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:07.719 Happened December twenty twenty, right. 54 00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:10.840 Yeah, December twenty twenty was supposed to be May twenty twenty. 55 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:15.319 The pandemic, you know, kind of took its toll. Oh. 56 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:17.520 I you know what, I can't believe that I didn't 57 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:20.840 have this teed up. But there is an ology for soil. 58 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:21.680 Are you aware of this? 59 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:22.159 Oh? 60 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:23.240 Yeah, pedology? 61 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:25.840 Yes, yes, A lot of people in soil science are 62 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:30.159 like pedologists. So soil science is like an interesting fact, 63 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:37.360 right because soils, like people, are very diverse, very ubiquitous, 64 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:41.120 like they're besides water, like soil and air, soil is 65 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:44.520 the most common thing you're going to interact with. Humans 66 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:48.120 have constructed all kinds of surfaces to not interact with soil, 67 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:51.840 but soil still makes its way in through dust right 68 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:54.759 the transports. And I'm saying all this because I think 69 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:57.680 as you talk about pedology, is this over encomassing field. 70 00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:00.280 There are a lot of different ways that people and 71 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:03.759 scientists interact with soils. You know, it's really interesting to 72 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:07.919 see and identify as a soil scientist because it's encompassed 73 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:11.800 in so many other types of environmental fields, and pedology 74 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:14.599 is one of those fields that soil science. That's really 75 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:17.560 like the root of how we talk about soil science today. 76 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:20.720 But like what I studied in my PhD work is 77 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:26.000 much more around soil health and in environmental contamination environmental 78 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:29.079 justice work, and it really took a process of like 79 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:31.519 am I soil scientists, like most of the analysis that 80 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:34.199 I do as soils, but I also could be seen 81 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:38.079 as a microbiologist who studies microbes in the soils. It 82 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:40.319 took me a long time to actually identify as a 83 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:43.879 soil scientist and something I wear really proudly today. But 84 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.720 it was actually on this when I hope we talk 85 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:49.040 about this, this one hundred and thirty five mile run 86 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:52.480 that I did with two other women's soil scientists, one's 87 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:55.560 a soil ecologist, one is a paedologist, and they were 88 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:57.959 able to identify the different layers of the soils, and 89 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:00.000 they do a whole thing called soil judging, which is 90 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:03.240 something my university didn't have a team in. And I 91 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:06.639 remember getting like, even though I have a PhD, getting 92 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:10.160 like anxious or having imposter syndrome about being a soil scientist. 93 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:12.759 And it led to this really beautiful conversation about who 94 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:16.120 we are as soil scientists. Has so diverse because soils 95 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:18.959 are so diverse, and we have to be more inclusive 96 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:21.360 on how we talk about soils because they are a 97 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:24.759 big part of climate science and of contaminant science, of 98 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:28.079 agricultural science right there. So there, soils are embedded in 99 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:31.519 so many different fields and really important and powerful ways. 100 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:34.279 We will indeed talk about that one hundred and thirty 101 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:37.279 five mile run because how could we not. My first 102 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:39.920 question about it is does she still have legs or 103 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:42.720 did she wear them down to nubs like pieces of chalk, 104 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:45.839 because one hundred and thirty five is so many miles. 105 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:47.839 But the best part about that run is that she 106 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:50.120 made it into a film and it's called Will Run 107 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:52.839 for Soil, and it features two other soil scientists and 108 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:56.160 it's not out yet as of November twenty twenty two. Again, 109 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:58.160 more on all of us in a bit, but for now, 110 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:00.480 let's get some questions out of the way that are 111 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:03.879 either brilliant or very very not smart. But I love 112 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:06.439 this next answer, And what is the difference between soil 113 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:06.879 and dirt? 114 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:09.360 So it depends when you ask. Okay, I like to 115 00:06:09.399 --> 00:06:13.480 think about it is like, so dirt is displaced soil. 116 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:17.439 Soil is naturally occurring in the ecosystem. It's really full 117 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:21.040 of life and microbes and you know, helps fulture water 118 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:23.800 and dirt has kind of been removed from its home, 119 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:27.040 and I think often it gets degraded as being called 120 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:29.319 dirt as opposed to recognizing the life force it is 121 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.160 in part because of it removal from its home. 122 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:35.160 Oh that's such a good answer. I wasn't sure if 123 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:37.199 it was like it's got to have a certain percentage 124 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:39.560 of rock or a certain percentage of dust, But it's 125 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:40.839 really more philosophical. 126 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:43.560 Yeah, it's just emoting it from its surface. And so 127 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:45.439 that's like I think the easiest place is to call 128 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.600 it like removed removed dirt soil. I think there are 129 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:51.240 so many like soil. Microbiologists will also think about the 130 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:53.720 microbes associated with soil. You have to hear people say 131 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:56.120 soil is alive, dirt is dead, which I don't think 132 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:59.959 is really true, especially as someone who studied mining issues. 133 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.439 Is like there's a lot of questions about like if 134 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:06.680 a reclaimed soil system or a mind soil is full 135 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:10.000 of life. And so I think dirt is displaced soil. 136 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:13.480 What about mud? Is mud just wet soil that's not but. 137 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:16.160 It's also mud is often displaced as well, right, but 138 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:19.120 it's highly saturated soil. So I'm in the Sonoran Desert, 139 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:22.959 our soils typically have like three percent saturation of water, 140 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:25.160 like they're really really dry soils. And then I went 141 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:28.600 into North Carolina and to me, the soils there are 142 00:07:28.759 --> 00:07:32.199 like mud. They have like thirty five percent saturation of water. 143 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:35.040 And I'm like, oh, my God. But also those soils, 144 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:37.439 you know, they hold so much more humidity and like 145 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:40.839 so much more organic matter decomposition, and so I think 146 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:43.319 it's all these kind of ecosystem dependent. 147 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:46.519 Well, let's talk about what is in a handful of soil, 148 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:47.519 What is in soil? 149 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:50.360 So within soil you often talk about in a single 150 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:54.000 tea spoon of soil, there's like over ten thousand microbes 151 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:57.199 in there, and there's all these nutrients in there that 152 00:07:57.279 --> 00:07:59.519 help make the soil, and that really speaks to the 153 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:03.439 parent material and the climate, so parent material being like 154 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:04.040 rocks right. 155 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:06.680 For more on that parent material, you can see the 156 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:11.000 recent two part Geology episode about rocks with Schmidty Thompson, 157 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:14.000 who is a treasure and a gem themselves. 158 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:17.360 And the climates that help make that soil color and texture, 159 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:20.120 and also the nutrients that are breaking down the soil. 160 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:22.959 We often can't see the sort of soiled particles themselves, 161 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:26.800 but they have little macropores where different microbes or chemical 162 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.439 interactions can happen. And so soils are so diverse in 163 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:35.039 part because our landscapes are so diverse, and soils are 164 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:38.799 affected by the climate and the temperature and the moisture regime, 165 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:41.759 even like the slopes and angles. When you want a mountain, 166 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:44.200 you can see one side of the area has really 167 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:46.080 dry soil, on the other side it has really wet 168 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:49.759 soil because of the important things of slope and different 169 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:52.919 aspect that can affect a soil system. And then you 170 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:55.480 have all the biological activity that's happening. So I think 171 00:08:55.519 --> 00:08:57.960 of the different plants and animals that are interacting with 172 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:00.240 that soil to help make it what it is is, 173 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:02.320 And so it really is kind of this embodiment of 174 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:05.879 our ecosystems and all the things that interact with our ecosystems, 175 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:06.720 including humans. 176 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:11.799 What was it about soil that drove you to get 177 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:14.519 a PhD? In it run one hundred and thirty five 178 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:17.960 miles with other soil scientists, Like, there's obviously you have 179 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:20.120 a passion for this. Where did that come from? 180 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.960 Yeah, I mean, I think in talking about my love 181 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.639 for soils today, it's really been a meandering river. I 182 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:28.840 started a community college as like a biology major, and 183 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:30.360 I thought at one point in time I wanted to 184 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:34.679 bring marine biologists. And my undergrad degree was environmental science, 185 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.480 Technology and Policy with a minor in chemistry, And so 186 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:40.440 I really liked the first soils plast I took. I 187 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:43.360 thought so cool to went with a catti and exchange capacity, 188 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:46.080 and just like all these chemical reactions that are happening 189 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:48.960 within soils themselves, and also just like their ability to 190 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:51.200 hold moisture let go of it. I just thought that 191 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:51.960 was really cool. 192 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:54.360 Ugh, if I had a dollar for every time I've 193 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:57.120 thought about cation exchange capacity, I could get it an 194 00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.200 arizona iced ty because I was like, what the fuck 195 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:01.399 is that? I looked it up. Let's break it down, 196 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:03.840 because it's cool, and soil is all about it. So 197 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:07.080 a cat ion has fewer electrons than it has protons, 198 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:10.240 so it's an ion with a positive charge. So think 199 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:13.480 of a happy positive cat that you're keeping an ion? 200 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:17.200 But what is an ion? Even it's an atom or 201 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:20.720 molecule with some kind of electrical charge, because either it's 202 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:23.399 gained or lost an electron. So a cat ion is 203 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:27.000 a positive one. A negative ion is an anion. But 204 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:29.759 not all atoms are ions. Some are just neutral and 205 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:32.399 not positive or negative. They're just sitting there knitting mining 206 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:35.720 their beeswax. But yes, a cat ion is a positively 207 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:41.000 charged ion. Cool. Now the cat ion exchange capacity CEC 208 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:44.200 is great for soil science, which is probably something you 209 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:47.279 never thought you think about, because that cat ion exchange 210 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:51.000 capacity is a metric of how many cat ions positive 211 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:56.000 ions like calcium and magnesium and potassium that plants need 212 00:10:56.279 --> 00:10:59.600 can stay in the soil. So clay in organic matter 213 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:02.960 tend be negatively charged, which means that they'll attract those 214 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:06.600 cat ions like magnesium and calcium and potassium, which you 215 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:09.840 now know are positively charged. So the cat ion exchange 216 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:11.960 capacity is a measure of the negative charge in the 217 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:15.320 soil to figure out how much good cat ion action 218 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:19.080 can stick around without leeching from the soil and getting 219 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:21.240 washed away before the plant can use it. Kind of 220 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:23.960 like if you needed to transport a bunch of weasels, 221 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:26.120 you got to figure out how big is your purse 222 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:29.000 to calculate how many weasels you can fit in your bag. 223 00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:32.679 So yes, Lydia was learning about this well, getting her 224 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:36.320 associates in biology at Cambrio Community College and an undergrad 225 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:39.720 but still soil didn't have her whole heart yet. 226 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:42.600 I was much more interested in marine systems and then 227 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:45.759 I worked for about three years before going to grad 228 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:48.720 school as an environmental toxicologist and I thought I'd be 229 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.039 doing a lot of like water testing, which I did, 230 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:53.960 but I also did a lot of sediment testing for toxicity, 231 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:55.799 and I began to think a lot more about texture. 232 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:58.519 Like we would owe and sample these river systems. We 233 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:00.759 sampled all the major rivers in Health, California, and we 234 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:03.440 would look at trying to get the fine grain sediment 235 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:06.200 versus like sandy sediment, so the fine grain sediment can 236 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:09.039 hold onto toxins in this case a lot of pesticides 237 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:14.399 and also like oils that were being sprayed. And it 238 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:17.639 was there like understanding how small particles can hold onto 239 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:20.279 so much toxins that have all these impacts to ecosystems, 240 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:23.440 into different marine organisms that are growing. So I thought 241 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:26.039 that part of it was really interesting, just the complexity 242 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:29.480 and power of these such small materials right the small 243 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:32.240 grains and find fine sediment. And I think as I 244 00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:35.080 came and pursued my graduate degree, I wanted to use 245 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:37.519 my love for science in a way that really served 246 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:40.279 my own cultural heritage and of my own tribal nation. 247 00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:44.480 Environmental injustices are really prevalent in Native committees for a 248 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:49.639 variety of like structural racism reasons, but as I was 249 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:53.879 studying all this environmental toxicology and sampling all these major 250 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:57.279 riverways in California. It was really clear to me just 251 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:01.000 in that three year time period of seeing how the 252 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:03.639 areas that were most polluted with pesticides were often in 253 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:07.960 close proximity to poor income and predominantly ground communities. And 254 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:10.720 then you'll also just seeing how the difference between northern 255 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.440 California and southern California, how they talked about the environment 256 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.679 so differently, was really interesting. And those are like all 257 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:19.000 big scale things, but it kind of comes down also 258 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:23.240 to how we concentrate environmental pollution, right, and so again 259 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:26.279 those low income areas really having a lot more environmental 260 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:29.200 contamination near them. So I wanted to understand how can 261 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:31.960 we learn about the soil systems in a way and 262 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:35.519 work with the biggest polluters to actually not just mark 263 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:39.440 that these areas are contaminated, but actually develop solutions. And 264 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.039 so as I pursued my PhD program, it was like 265 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:47.200 one of the biggest contaminators in Arizona's mining companies some 266 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:50.080 of the biggest ones, and there is so much mining 267 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:52.679 in close proximity to my tribal nation and other tribal 268 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:55.039 nations in Arizona. So how can I use this love 269 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:58.639 of science and this understanding of soil systems to be 270 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:01.399 able to work and so those environmental contamination. 271 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:04.559 So though doctor Lydia Jennings grew up in Santa Fe, 272 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:07.519 New Mexico, which are tilla lands, she is a citizen 273 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:11.679 of the Pascayaki and who's coal nations. And zoom into 274 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:15.000 those lands and you'll find tiny, tiny, itty bitty bits 275 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:20.080 of land and minerals and chemicals at animals, tiny plants. 276 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:24.360 It's like interesting because I love soils. I love their complexity. 277 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:27.600 They're really complex and dependent on the soil systems and 278 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.840 how they hold contaminants and all of their chemistry. But 279 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:34.240 also I think bringing in an indigenous perspective and recognizing 280 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:37.200 that relationship and reciprocity that we have with our environmental 281 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:41.320 ecosystems in a lot of ways, understanding what are the 282 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:44.759 soils tell us about their health that we can understand 283 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:50.639 using both indigenous epistemologies and our typical soil science metrics 284 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.879 to help improve these ecosystems health long term, and that's 285 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.279 helping humans and animals long term health as well. And 286 00:14:57.320 --> 00:14:59.080 so that's kind of where I see the work that 287 00:14:59.159 --> 00:14:59.799 I love to do. 288 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:04.279 To when you were doing these samples in northern and 289 00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:09.120 southern California, how did you even emotionally prepare to try 290 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:11.279 to get a sample from the La River? How did 291 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:14.320 that go? From someone who lives very close to the 292 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:18.039 La River. The La River, for people who've never seen it, 293 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.759 is wow. So for those who haven't ever seen it, 294 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:24.320 quick description. The La River is a fifty one mile 295 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:28.279 trickle of runoff that was concreted into a big, massive 296 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.600 gray ditch by the Army Corps of Engineers. And though 297 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.480 there are parts like there's this eleven mile stretch of 298 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:37.840 Glendale Narrows kind of near Silver Lake that have crumbled 299 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.000 on the bottom and allowed for plants and animals to 300 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:45.320 return amid the shopping carts and discarded gatorade bottles and such. 301 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:49.399 But before it became the saddest waterway in the West, 302 00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:53.240 one which the La Times reported was quote mostly industrial 303 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:56.799 and residential discharge, the La River used to be this 304 00:15:56.919 --> 00:16:00.639 thriving wetland, and the Tongba land that we now call 305 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:04.799 Los Angeles was like this giant waffle of ponds and swamps. 306 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:06.919 If you've ever been in La have you ever taken 307 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:11.679 Losianaga Losianica means the swamp, but now it's just a 308 00:16:11.679 --> 00:16:14.600 big mall on dry asphalt. But yes, the Elle River 309 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:17.399 the aquatic underdog we're all rooting for. 310 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:20.559 So I went to college in Santa Cruz, so it's 311 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:23.080 really easy to be an environmentalist there, right, because it's 312 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:25.720 like redwood trees in the ocean, and like it's really 313 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:27.519 easy to be a tree hugger when you get to 314 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:30.440 sample in beautiful places. And so I kind of didn't 315 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.080 know what to expect when I went down sampling in 316 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:35.720 the Elle River or the Tijana River where I had 317 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:40.039 to like triple layer of protection because it smelled toxic, 318 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:42.840 or when I had to collect samples next to meat 319 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:46.639 rendering plant, you know, delicious and it just smelled like death. 320 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:49.799 Like those are all really tough experiences that I didn't 321 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:52.360 know how to mentally prepare. I think that like being 322 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:54.799 an endurance runner, where you just like put your head 323 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:57.720 down and get through it, is kind of like how 324 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:00.279 I process that. One of my favorite experience it's is 325 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:04.119 sampling in the La River. So I think it's really 326 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:08.680 interesting how in southern California, particular rivers are named after 327 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:12.759 the streets that go over them, while in northern California, 328 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:17.039 streets are named after the rivers that they are over. What, right, 329 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:20.319 and like how just the naming of river systems kind 330 00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:23.359 of also shapes how people interact with the environment, which 331 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:24.640 I found's super fascinating. 332 00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:25.480 I had no idea. 333 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:28.759 So the La County, right, like all the rivers are 334 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:31.319 highly channelized, Like if you didn't know to look for 335 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:33.680 a river, you might miss it because there's so much 336 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:36.680 like concrete built around it. We had to like tie 337 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.759 your rope on this side pole or whatever in waiders 338 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.640 and big backpacks that carried a four gallon glass jar, 339 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:47.599 like basically slowly lower ourself down on the rope to 340 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:50.759 get to the La River channels and then collect soil 341 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:53.160 sediments there. And it was amazing when you get down there. 342 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:55.319 A lot of times they were like cool to see 343 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.559 how sediment had built up and there are trees and 344 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.480 our parians grow areas growing. The other times where like 345 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.359 there were huge homeless encampments that we had to navigate around. 346 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:06.759 I mean, it was definitely always on your toes. But 347 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:09.680 I think to me, those experiences of being in the 348 00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.880 heart of the city but also seeing how nature and 349 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:17.279 natural ecosystems. We're also trying to reconquer. The concrete was 350 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:18.799 really beautiful. 351 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:20.480 And I imagine if you've got a glass jar, that's 352 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:24.519 because you don't want to use plastics, which could maybe 353 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:27.640 contaminate your samples, Like how do you even go about 354 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:29.480 figuring out what's in them? 355 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:32.720 Yeah, So in that time, we were looking particularly for 356 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:37.240 any presence of heavy metals and pesticides, and so with plastics, 357 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.279 there are potential for some of those compounds and the 358 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:43.799 soils to react with the plastic surfaces. So it's better 359 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:46.160 for long term preservation to keep it in glass and 360 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:48.440 then keep it in a controlled environment. The type of 361 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:51.000 vessels in which you collect samples are really depending on 362 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:53.680 what you're sampling for and also like just thinking about 363 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:56.680 potential vollatoles that might be happening in plastics versus glass. 364 00:18:56.759 --> 00:18:59.920 Right when you're doing the soil analysis, what things are 365 00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:03.039 you looking for, like the metals, how much rock is there, 366 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:05.319 how much moisture is there? Is there a histogram of 367 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:06.519 what's in each. 368 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:09.000 Thing depends on the project. With that project that I 369 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:12.279 did in this gap year, these gap years between my 370 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:16.519 undergrad and my PhD, that project was a stream Pollution 371 00:19:16.759 --> 00:19:20.160 Trends Monitoring project, and so we were sampling all the 372 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:24.119 major riverways in California and looking for kind of areas 373 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:27.839 of more concentrated pollution or not then particularly looking at pesticides, 374 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:31.680 heavy metals, and any kinds of oils or other types 375 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.519 of waste streams that might be in those systems. And 376 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:36.839 then we are able to look at, okay, sample one 377 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:39.359 hundred spots throughout California. These are areas that are more 378 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:42.200 concentrated in terms of pollution, and we were able to 379 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:44.880 give that to the California EPA, which then was able 380 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:48.759 to talk to the regional epas environmental protection agencies and 381 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:51.200 kind of start to make some management decisions about how 382 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:54.519 to address those hot spots of pollution. I keep on 383 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:56.880 talking about pesticides because that was one of the biggest ones. 384 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.799 Also insecticides, Like we would actually go out and sample 385 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.000 on the agricultural fields and like near Sacramento area after 386 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:07.200 they had sprayed different types of insecticides to address mosquito populations. 387 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:09.519 And so that was really interesting because we would go 388 00:20:09.559 --> 00:20:12.319 out before they sprayed and then like you know, an 389 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:14.839 hour after they sprayed, twelve hours after they sprayed, twenty 390 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:16.920 four hours after they sprayed and seven days after they 391 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:20.160 sprayed to really see how those levels were decreasing. That 392 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:24.480 was just a really interesting example of like how as humans, 393 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:29.000 we're using our science and chemistry to address one type 394 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.200 of irritant, but we're also potentially creating others, and so 395 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:34.200 that's why we have to be monitoring that to make 396 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:37.599 sure that we're keeping people healthy from both the insects 397 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:39.799 but also from the prosecticides and pesticides that we use 398 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:41.079 to address those insects. 399 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.519 So that was an undergrad project, but her PhD research 400 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:49.039 focused on looking at microbial critters in soil to figure 401 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:52.319