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<v Speaker 1>Hello everyone, and welcome back for the third time this

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<v Speaker 1>week to the nonprofits. Delaware is now the twelfth US

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<v Speaker 1>state to allow its citizens to choose to end their

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<v Speaker 1>life with medical assistance. First proposed in twenty fifteen, House

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<v Speaker 1>Bill one point forty, recently signed into law by Governor

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<v Speaker 1>Matt Meyer, provides terminally ill citizens and Delaware the options

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<v Speaker 1>to end their lives on their own terms. Critics of

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<v Speaker 1>the bill, using what the article's author calls opposite day logic,

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<v Speaker 1>lament that the new law provides quote no hope, no compassion,

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<v Speaker 1>and no help end quote, preferring instead that the terminally

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<v Speaker 1>ill continue to suffer needlessly, regardless of their own wishes.

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<v Speaker 1>The bill allows preclusions for morally opposed doctors to opt

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<v Speaker 1>out of performing the procedure, and it also protects unsuspecting

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<v Speaker 1>and non non consenting patients from having the procedure chosen

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<v Speaker 1>for them. And most fittingly, I think the law was

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<v Speaker 1>named after Ron Silverio and Heather Block to Delaware patients

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<v Speaker 1>who suffered to the end of their lives while waiting

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<v Speaker 1>for this bill to become law. This story is from

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<v Speaker 1>The Friendly Atheist by him and Meta on May twenty ninth,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty five. So Eli, I'm going to come back

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<v Speaker 1>to me. How well informed are you on this? Eli? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm far from well informed on this, but I have

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<v Speaker 1>lost friends who have chosen to end their own lives before,

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<v Speaker 1>and not in a medically assisted way. And as hard

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<v Speaker 1>as it is to, you know, to process sudden losses

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<v Speaker 1>like that, mostly they're almost always unexpected, I think, but

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<v Speaker 1>just by the nature. There's also something I think I

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<v Speaker 1>want to say, like cosmically altruistic about allowing people to

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<v Speaker 1>end their lives on their own terms. I think, generally speaking,

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<v Speaker 1>people should have the right to choose when and how

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<v Speaker 1>their life ends if that is what they want to do,

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<v Speaker 1>and for all practical purposes, we do have that choice.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm only aware of one conviction in the United States

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<v Speaker 1>for an attempted suicide, and that was in Maryland in

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<v Speaker 1>twenty eighteen. Now, even though that person was convicted, they

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<v Speaker 1>were given a deferred sentence and probation instead of serving

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<v Speaker 1>jail time. But I still think that that's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>disgusting thing to do, because you have people who are

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<v Speaker 1>either you know, suffering physically or you know, however it

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<v Speaker 1>may be, that have decided that not being allied was

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<v Speaker 1>a better option, and even I think there are plenty

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<v Speaker 1>of cases in which that is a temporary feeling in

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<v Speaker 1>which people can come away from that feeling, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think should be encouraged to seek that sort of treatment

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<v Speaker 1>to help them feel better about wanting to live, rather

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<v Speaker 1>than making ultimate, you know, extremely definite choices like this.

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<v Speaker 1>But this person in particular was dragged back into the

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<v Speaker 1>world that they had chosen to leave and then punished

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<v Speaker 1>for making that choice, and I think that that violates autonomy.

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<v Speaker 1>But then all being said, I've been talking for a while,

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<v Speaker 1>so Kelly, do you have any ideas about why there

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<v Speaker 1>is such opposition to things like this? Like I mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>in the intro, why is it such a big deal

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<v Speaker 1>to any person if a completely different person wants to

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<v Speaker 1>end their own life.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I have a lot of thoughts about that, honestly.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the things too though in the intro you

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned that it was to their own their life on

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<v Speaker 2>their own terms, and I don't know if the bill

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<v Speaker 2>allows that. Actually it does kind of allow you to

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<v Speaker 2>make the decision, but I don't it's not really on

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<v Speaker 2>your own terms. There's a lot of things you have

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<v Speaker 2>to go through to do it, and it has to

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<v Speaker 2>be done under certain conditions. So but let's drop that

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<v Speaker 2>for now. I was thinking of back in the nineteen seventies.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so fucking old. Back in the nineteen seventies, there

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<v Speaker 2>was a movie called I Will Fight No More Forever,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was about the Nez Pierce Indian War. And

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<v Speaker 2>there's a scene where, you know, the whole tribe is

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<v Speaker 2>trying to get away from the the US military. It's

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<v Speaker 2>based on a true story, and they're just marching to

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<v Speaker 2>crowd hundreds of miles and there's an older woman and

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<v Speaker 2>she realizes she's slowing up her family, she's slowing everybody up,

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<v Speaker 2>and she just walks off by herself, out into the woods,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, away from everybody else, and you know why

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<v Speaker 2>she's doing it, you know, and you look at you

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<v Speaker 2>you watch the scene and you and it's sad, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's also like this noble sacrifice she's making, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's that's but that's not the way Christians think,

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<v Speaker 2>that's not the way Muslims think. You know that it's

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<v Speaker 2>a sin to take your own life, because that's one

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<v Speaker 2>more person that can't give glory to God. Right, So

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's that's really where this opposition comes from.

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<v Speaker 2>It's religious, it's not anything else. It's and it's really

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<v Speaker 2>sad that people have to suffer. I mean, at my age,

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<v Speaker 2>I've seen a lot of people suffer when they really

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<v Speaker 2>didn't need to. Most of the polls show that everybody

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<v Speaker 2>agrees with these kind of laws. Why because nobody wants

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<v Speaker 2>to suffer except the Catholics of course. But yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean that's a seventy one percent. That's a huge amount

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<v Speaker 2>of people, you know, I mean that's I don't I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think we've gotten that many people all together for

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<v Speaker 2>one thing in a long time.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. Why?

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<v Speaker 2>Why is it always it's there's always like thirty percent

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<v Speaker 2>of the people in a poll that are on the

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<v Speaker 2>wrong side, like one in three those like every pole, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Have you ever noticed that?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but two out of three ain't bad.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, But it doesn't matter what the poll is about.

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<v Speaker 2>There's just always this one third of people who are

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<v Speaker 2>always against it. I just never figured that one out anyway.

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<v Speaker 2>That's about it. I'm hoping that we can see the

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<v Speaker 2>end of these like archaic religious prejudices. And I mean

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<v Speaker 2>that's because that's what's holding holding people back and making

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<v Speaker 2>people suffer.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, And the suffering I think is the primary

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<v Speaker 1>issue here because we are thinking of suffering as like

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<v Speaker 1>if and the people who are affected by by you know,

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<v Speaker 1>these opportunities to end their life medically are thinking of

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<v Speaker 1>you know, physical stuff in life, in the real world,

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<v Speaker 1>in their bodies. And the opposition I think is arguing that, well, no,

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to suffer for eternity. You're not ending your suffering.

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<v Speaker 1>You're you know, you're not reducing harm. But aj, I

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<v Speaker 1>want to become to you, now, do you I think

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<v Speaker 1>we kind of would all be in agreement, But like,

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<v Speaker 1>do you think that there's a strong argument here to

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<v Speaker 1>be made that this does reduce harm?

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<v Speaker 3>I do think so, And I think it has a

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<v Speaker 3>like what color just mentioned that it seems like Christians

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<v Speaker 3>are very much against it, and it maybe think, you

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<v Speaker 3>know what, the only people that I have talked to

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<v Speaker 3>so far who agree with this or that fellow atheists,

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<v Speaker 3>one of them being and she has spoken about this publicly,

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<v Speaker 3>so I am pretty sure it's great to talk about this.

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<v Speaker 3>But Cindy Plaster, who's a fellow non profits, recently has

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<v Speaker 3>begun the process and it's a very lengthy process, but

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<v Speaker 3>ultimately I've never seen a Christian who has agreed with it.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think the reason is that us as atheist,

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<v Speaker 3>we embrace humanism, and humanism is all about the reduction

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<v Speaker 3>of harm. I wanted to mention that right now, there's

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<v Speaker 3>currently more than ten states that allow assisted that generally,

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<v Speaker 3>and you know this work in similar ways similar ways

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<v Speaker 3>around the world. There are requirements that someone has to

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<v Speaker 3>meet in order to qualify for the assisted that process,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's the case on what they're doing. In Delaware,

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<v Speaker 3>for example, patients are required to have first mental health evaluations.

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<v Speaker 3>Sometimes there's more than one. There is a waiting period

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<v Speaker 3>between that and doctor appointments. Then they have to have

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<v Speaker 3>physicians diagnosed and repeated diagnosed for this specific thing. Then

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<v Speaker 3>they also have to self administer the medication. I know

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<v Speaker 3>that in some places they also have to have, like

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<v Speaker 3>I said, you know, more than one doctor that that

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<v Speaker 3>actually gives them not just a diagnosis, but the mental

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<v Speaker 3>health UH to say, hey, you know, this is a

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<v Speaker 3>terminal illness. This is going to cost you unbearable suffering.

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<v Speaker 3>There's no reasonable treatment, we don't have any hope for

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<v Speaker 3>you to recover. And so that's what they have to

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<v Speaker 3>go through. And that's what people don't understand. They think

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<v Speaker 3>it's just a super quick process and you know that's it.

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<v Speaker 3>Then then your doctor is going to inject you with

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<v Speaker 3>something and you're gonna die. But it's not even like that.

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<v Speaker 3>Like I said, you have to administer that otherwise it's

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<v Speaker 3>considered murder.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 3>They also have to make sure that the patient is

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<v Speaker 3>mentally sound to make that decision. It's not quick, it's

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<v Speaker 3>not easy, and in my opinion, yeah, I have to

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<v Speaker 3>say that it is about reducing heart and we continue

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<v Speaker 3>to talk about this in the human community. And you know,

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<v Speaker 3>if this includes reducing the suffering at the end of

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<v Speaker 3>your life, because we do it throughout our entire lives,

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<v Speaker 3>why should it be different at the end of your life.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, it's a hard topic to talk about, but

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<v Speaker 3>I think that the more we bring awareness to it,

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<v Speaker 3>the more people will understand why we support it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think the word harm, of course, is

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<v Speaker 1>kind of central to this. And when there's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of can when the word harm comes up, especially in

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<v Speaker 1>medical contests, people really like to talk about the hippocratic oath, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and how that applies. And I remember being told like

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<v Speaker 1>the first line of the Hippocratic oath is first, do

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<v Speaker 1>no harm. And I thought that up until earlier this

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<v Speaker 1>week when I was like, is that true? And no,

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<v Speaker 1>it isn't. And that's where I think a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>confusion comes in for people about like what what does

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<v Speaker 1>the Hippocratic oaths mean? And what does it not mean?

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<v Speaker 1>And what is it really And I think it probably

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<v Speaker 1>does have you know, just as much of a factor

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<v Speaker 1>and the opposition to this as as you know some

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<v Speaker 1>of like the religious beliefs that we've talked about. There

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<v Speaker 1>was language. It's in the original like oath in the

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<v Speaker 1>original Greek that says, you know, I have it written

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<v Speaker 1>down here, I will use diets for the benefit of

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<v Speaker 1>the sick according to my ability and judgment, I will

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<v Speaker 1>keep them from harm and injustice. And so that is

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<v Speaker 1>included in the original version. But most medical schools anymore,

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<v Speaker 1>they're not They're using versions of it that don't include that.

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<v Speaker 1>There's not a standard, you know, universal version. It's more

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<v Speaker 1>ceremonial and you know, optical rather than actually ethically or

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<v Speaker 1>more exactly, and many physicians choose to just forego the

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<v Speaker 1>oath altogether. As I understand it, So the now there's

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<v Speaker 1>language as well, and it's because of the specific language

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<v Speaker 1>that the original both has regarding euthanasia, because it does

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<v Speaker 1>discuss that in some small part. But now, Kelly, you

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned earlier that there was seventy one percent of

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<v Speaker 1>people polled were in favor of physicians assisting with end

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<v Speaker 1>of life via painless means. And what I really enjoyed

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<v Speaker 1>about this study that was cited in this article is

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<v Speaker 1>that the researchers were like, well, because there is some

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<v Speaker 1>phenomenon to be accounted for here that if you say

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<v Speaker 1>things like end of life with painless means versus assisted suicide,

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<v Speaker 1>that's going to change the way that the recipient interprets

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<v Speaker 1>the question and that might change their answer. So they

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<v Speaker 1>did it both ways, and they said, how do you

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<v Speaker 1>feel about doctors being allowed to assist a patient with suicide?

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<v Speaker 1>And the number only dropped by like seven percent from

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<v Speaker 1>seventy one to sixty six, which means that even when

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<v Speaker 1>you use a word like suicide that invokes so much

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<v Speaker 1>negativity and repulse, there's still two thirds of those polled

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<v Speaker 1>that are in support of medically as a dying. So

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<v Speaker 1>people don't want to suffer exactly. But now with that

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<v Speaker 1>being the case, we seem to have a majority without

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<v Speaker 1>a consensus. How do you think that's the case, Kelly?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you do you have any thoughts on that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, our chaic laws, archaic laws. I mean, let's face it,

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<v Speaker 2>laws get a lot of a lot of ale. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>gonna admit it right now. Some of our laws are

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<v Speaker 2>based on Christian idealism, and this is one of them.

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<v Speaker 2>To make suicide illegal. There's no reason for it, especially

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<v Speaker 2>if for a terminally ill patient who is suffering. There

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<v Speaker 2>is absolutely no harm being done to anyone, anyone. You

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<v Speaker 2>are reducing that. You are ending the suffering of the patient,

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<v Speaker 2>you are ending the suffering of those closest to him.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the way that things should be able to

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<v Speaker 2>be done on. But our forefathers, in their infinite ignorance,

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<v Speaker 2>decided to follow Christian morality on this and made and

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<v Speaker 2>created these really archaic laws. And once you put along

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<v Speaker 2>in the books, it's really hard to get it back off.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, look how hard it was to get rid

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<v Speaker 2>of the the the buggery laws that were so prevalent

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<v Speaker 2>in that restate, and some of them are still on

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<v Speaker 2>the books. I think Texas is if I'm not mistaken.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it can't be upheld. The Supreme Court has

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<v Speaker 2>knocked them down, but the laws are still there. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's what's going on with this one, except that we're

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<v Speaker 2>still in forcing this one.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. It it seems to come from like just this

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<v Speaker 1>sort of it's a it's a sense of I guess ethical.

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<v Speaker 1>It's this idea of there being things that are objectively

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<v Speaker 1>good or bad, and and in life falls under objectively

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<v Speaker 1>bad in those worldviews. Now, and I think too that

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<v Speaker 1>it's really important we have a little bit, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>important to distinguish between like the fail safes. I guess,

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<v Speaker 1>so the safeguards that you mentioned earlier, age that like

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<v Speaker 1>this isn't intended for somebody to like call up their

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<v Speaker 1>doctor and say, hey, i'd like to die on Tuesday.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you have an opening? It doesn't hepen like that.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that's that's.

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<v Speaker 2>What iant That's why I mentioned I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>it's on your own terms, because there's all these things,

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<v Speaker 2>all these hoops got to jump through, right, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's why I mentioned earlier too, because there there

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<v Speaker 1>are plenty of circumstances in which a person might feel

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<v Speaker 1>that this is the best option or the only option

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<v Speaker 1>for them, in which truly they have other options available

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<v Speaker 1>that can not only end what they view as or

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<v Speaker 1>what is I shouldn't say what they view because their

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<v Speaker 1>suffering is their suffering as they label it, not only

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<v Speaker 1>in their suffering, but enjoy life beyond like after the suffering,

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<v Speaker 1>and then that there. It may not always be necessary

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<v Speaker 1>to end of the life to end of the suffering,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's that's a really important distinction to make, but

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<v Speaker 1>it does, ultimately, I think, come down to autonomy, and

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<v Speaker 1>we haven't really touched super we haven't gotten really in

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<v Speaker 1>depth about autonomy in this discussion. I think that's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a central focus of the law. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>with like recent sort of changes in like autonomy and

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<v Speaker 1>like medical autonomy, especially for like especially for women or

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<v Speaker 1>people who are capable of getting pregnant, I should say

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<v Speaker 1>it seems like this is a little bit of a

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<v Speaker 1>shift I think in that sort of autonomy war or

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<v Speaker 1>autonomy like atmosphere, AJ did you have more like did

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<v Speaker 1>you have thoughts about that? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 3>I do, and I have to agree it has a

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<v Speaker 3>lot to do with autonomy. I think that like from

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<v Speaker 3>this specific toority takeaway is that We always discuss topics

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<v Speaker 3>of balterly autonomy when it comes to like you said,

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<v Speaker 3>abortion or trans people, and a lot of people who

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<v Speaker 3>identify as women on their goal, like really expensive and

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<v Speaker 3>extensive surgeries to have firmed their gender. You know, do

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<v Speaker 3>things like slow down their aging surgeries like breast augmentation implants,

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<v Speaker 3>go with Tommy Jack's life perception, get those jobs, they

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<v Speaker 3>get netlifts, whatever feeling of the outer layer of the skin.

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<v Speaker 3>Like I know someone who actually had that done recently.

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<v Speaker 3>It was like they look like a completely different person.

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<v Speaker 3>So we do the same for trans people, right, we

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<v Speaker 3>advocate for them to have the same kind of dignity

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<v Speaker 3>to be able to choose what kind of badding modifications

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<v Speaker 3>they do, and justifiably they should have that right. And

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<v Speaker 3>as I mentioned earlier, including abortion as a bodily autonomy issue,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, things like my buddy might choose as a woman,

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<v Speaker 3>like we don't want to be forced to sustain another

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<v Speaker 3>life against a will. That would be like against the

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<v Speaker 3>allowed to do that, you know, if they sustained life

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<v Speaker 3>was that of an adult or like even a child,

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<v Speaker 3>that not not an onborne like because it's a human right,

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<v Speaker 3>and so we have to give that same dignity to

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<v Speaker 3>people at the end of their lives, their liberty to choose.

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<v Speaker 3>So if they are when we talk about end of life,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not talking about somebody who is older, because if

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<v Speaker 3>it is somebody who is younger and has a terminal illness,

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<v Speaker 3>then you can call that the end of their lives.

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<v Speaker 3>Right if they have something that is untreatable that they

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<v Speaker 3>cannot their doctors don't see any way for them to recover,

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<v Speaker 3>So to be able to end their life with the

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<v Speaker 3>same considerations regarding the freedoms of what they get to

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<v Speaker 3>do with their bodies, even if that means choosing to

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<v Speaker 3>permanently cease to exist, they should have that ability to

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<v Speaker 3>do that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Absolutely. You said something that made me really think

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<v Speaker 1>about it. It was about, like when it comes to

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<v Speaker 1>abortion laws or things like that, we talk about how

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<v Speaker 1>like you cannot force somebody to use their body to

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<v Speaker 1>sustain a life against their will, and I think that

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<v Speaker 1>that should also apply to their own life. And I

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<v Speaker 1>can't stress enough, you know, I I don't always think

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<v Speaker 1>that end of life is the best option in all circumstances,

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<v Speaker 1>but the other people, everybody has the right to choose

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<v Speaker 1>that for their for their own I don't think it

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<v Speaker 1>should be punishable or shit.

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<v Speaker 2>Let me let me ask you a question. We're talking

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<v Speaker 2>about using an end of life option to end suffering, right,

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<v Speaker 2>medical suffering, and I think I think all three of

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<v Speaker 2>us start thinking of a physical medical problem, what about

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<v Speaker 2>a psychological one?

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<v Speaker 1>And I've kind of I've kept that in the back

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<v Speaker 1>of my mind the whole time, and that's why I'm

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<v Speaker 1>That is what gives me slight pause about this, and

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<v Speaker 1>that's why I'm glad, like I mentioned earlier, the safeguards

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<v Speaker 1>are in place, and I want to know what you

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<v Speaker 1>think about this too, exactly because there are I think

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I'm speculating because I'm not an expert, but

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<v Speaker 1>that being said, I feel you know, a license to

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<v Speaker 1>speculate wildly. I think probably like nine out of ten times,

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<v Speaker 1>when you're talking about psychological suffering, you you're talking about

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<v Speaker 1>someone who there are some options for at least helping

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<v Speaker 1>that person feel better or live a more satisfying life.

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<v Speaker 1>And it doesn't require, like imaged earlier, the end of

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<v Speaker 1>life to end the suffering. I think. So that's I

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<v Speaker 1>just you go ahead.

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<v Speaker 2>I just I was just gonna say, I just thought

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<v Speaker 2>it was an interesting aspect to look at it, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>because there are I mean, there are people I myself

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<v Speaker 2>have known somebody who is Actually I've known two people

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<v Speaker 2>that it just suffered with severe bouts of depression their

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<v Speaker 2>entire life, you know, and it was and a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of different things didn't help them.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>They went years and years and years and years and years.

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<v Speaker 2>One of them I know did eventually find something that

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<v Speaker 2>worked for them and has advocated for it through his

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<v Speaker 2>own nonprofit. I've been at CNN, and I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>freaking awesome. Yeah, you know, so, yeah, but it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>it just makes me wonder that if you get somebody,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, somebody who is just has spent thirty decades

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<v Speaker 2>suffering from something like depression, is it viable to let

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<v Speaker 2>them do use this as an option as well?

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<v Speaker 3>And I do think it is. And I remember when

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<v Speaker 3>when Cindy spoke to Eton Michaels on the show about

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<v Speaker 3>this topic, and somebody asked that question and she she

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<v Speaker 3>did mention that the process is very tough about that,

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<v Speaker 3>because they have to show that they have drived so

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<v Speaker 3>many different methods and that none of those methods that

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<v Speaker 3>are currently available have worked so it has to be

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<v Speaker 3>all types of different medications, different therapies. So there it

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<v Speaker 3>isn't just like hey, you know, I'm feeling the rest

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<v Speaker 3>today like you said earlier, and you call your doctor

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<v Speaker 3>and you tell them you want to you want to

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<v Speaker 3>end your life next week or something like that. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>it can sometimes it can take more more than just

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<v Speaker 3>a few months, So it can take like up to

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<v Speaker 3>a year or more than that. So it really depends

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<v Speaker 3>on case by case. And what I'm thinking is we

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<v Speaker 3>are thinking of the people that actually go through with it,

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<v Speaker 3>but we are not thinking of the ones that are

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<v Speaker 3>denied because they do not qualify. Ultimately that they do apply,

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<v Speaker 3>but to not qualify because you know, like we're saying, Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>no you haven't tried this, so you haven't tried that,

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<v Speaker 3>or you know, your diagnosis while bleak is not completely

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<v Speaker 3>you know, untreatable or terminal or.

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<v Speaker 1>Like, there's new research being done that could result in

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<v Speaker 1>a new treatment, so let's wait and see. And then

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<v Speaker 1>that person ends their life suffering waiting for either a

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<v Speaker 1>treatment or the option to end their life, and they

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<v Speaker 1>just have to suffer the whole time. And yeah, there's

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<v Speaker 1>there's so much nuance to it. I really think, Yeah, it's.

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<v Speaker 2>Easy, it's it's a very complicated topic for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think I think it was one that

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<v Speaker 1>that merits and deserves a lot of care and attention.

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<v Speaker 1>But I did learn that there there is legislation in

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<v Speaker 1>the works in my home state in Missouri for for

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<v Speaker 1>patients that might be in the same position. So hopefully

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<v Speaker 1>good news soon for for for those patients, UH and

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<v Speaker 1>in a few more states here in the country. Now, UH,

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<v Speaker 1>all that being said, don't forget to check out the

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<v Speaker 1>UH Nonprofits store at tiny dot c c slash merch

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<v Speaker 1>a c a