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<v Speaker 1>Bill Cunningham, the great American. Of course, masculinity and more

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<v Speaker 1>or less is on the ballot this November. I can't

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<v Speaker 1>think of masculinity being on the ballot. And of course

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<v Speaker 1>Nikki Haley and others are advising the Trumpster to tone

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<v Speaker 1>down that bro stuff and talk about women's problems and

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<v Speaker 1>men's problems. Normally in our society we focus upon women

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<v Speaker 1>one way or another. But there's a great book by

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Ronald Levant, Professor Emeritis of Psychology, University of akronym More,

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<v Speaker 1>former President how about this of the American Psychological Association,

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<v Speaker 1>devoted forty years of his life to studying masculinity and

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Ronald Levant, welcome, I think for the first time

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<v Speaker 1>to the Bill Cunningham Show. And let me begin by saying,

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<v Speaker 1>it's fascinating you studied masculinity. Why did you begin this

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<v Speaker 1>line of work about forty years ago? And secondly, what

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<v Speaker 1>have you found if anything?

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<v Speaker 2>Wow? Well, okay. I got into the study of masculinity

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<v Speaker 2>through the study of fathering, and as we say in psychology,

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<v Speaker 2>most research is research. I got into fathering because I

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<v Speaker 2>was struggling with the role of being a divorced partially

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<v Speaker 2>custodial father of a tween age daughter at that time.

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<v Speaker 2>And as I kind of started working with fathers and

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<v Speaker 2>what I tried to do, I was on the faculty

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<v Speaker 2>at Boston University at the time, was trying to provide

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<v Speaker 2>fathers with parent education skills because at that time, in

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<v Speaker 2>the early eighties, men were just beginning to be visibly

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<v Speaker 2>involved with children. You could see men carrying infants in

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<v Speaker 2>chess packs or pushing rollers in Harvard Square. And as

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<v Speaker 2>a result of, you know, kind of doing that work,

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<v Speaker 2>I discovered that many men have difficulty expressing their emotion

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<v Speaker 2>except for one, which is anger. And that was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of what led me into this particular study. But what

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<v Speaker 2>really fueled it with my childhood and I had a

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<v Speaker 2>emotionally and physically abusive father who did not need to

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<v Speaker 2>be so mean and bad that he was, And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it kind of got me curious as to what makes

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<v Speaker 2>men become so violent, and that was really I read

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<v Speaker 2>their stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, a girl, dad is a problem today, and

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<v Speaker 1>you say, why are so many men problematically unable to

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<v Speaker 1>describe how they feel? I have difficulty explaining how I feel.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not supposed I got the shields up. You then say,

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<v Speaker 1>neglecting their health. If my wife did not insist that

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<v Speaker 1>I go to like seven or eight doctors every year

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<v Speaker 1>or two, I would never go at all. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>explode in rage except maybe on the golf course and

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<v Speaker 1>then resorting to violence of some thing. As an attorney,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think I've ever done. But men are programmed

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<v Speaker 1>to be like their father. Is it nurture or is

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<v Speaker 1>it genetics? Is it the fact that we spend millions

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<v Speaker 1>of years defending the cave or defending our heart and health?

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<v Speaker 1>And I see myself as a protector and this bleeds

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<v Speaker 1>over to my personal behavior, and that men often die alone,

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<v Speaker 1>and that they refer why are why? Why is that

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<v Speaker 1>the case? Is it genetic or is it nurture or both?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's both. But we can't do much about the genetics,

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<v Speaker 2>but we can do a lot about the nurture. And

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<v Speaker 2>as a psychologist, I have tools to deal with the nurture.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that's kind of why I focused on it.

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<v Speaker 2>And it has to do with it, starting with how

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<v Speaker 2>we raise our boys to conform to these rigid masculine norms,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly about crying. You know, big boys don't cry, or no,

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<v Speaker 2>or worse, you get threatened. If you don't stop crying,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll give you something to really cry about. That's it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and so you know, obviously it's both. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't know how to change genes, but we do

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<v Speaker 2>know how to change behavior. And let's talk about health.

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<v Speaker 2>Men die now, and this has gotten worse six point

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<v Speaker 2>three And this is us six point three years sooner

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<v Speaker 2>than women. Okay, it used to be in the fives.

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<v Speaker 2>And men have more diseases in every major category of illness.

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<v Speaker 2>And while there are some small genetic factors associated with

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<v Speaker 2>female sex hormones that give them a slight advantage, the

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<v Speaker 2>bulk of the evidence suggests it men's behavior. Men put

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<v Speaker 2>their health at risk through not wearing seatbelts, not using sunblock,

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<v Speaker 2>not visiting their positions when they're sick. Well, you're laughing,

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<v Speaker 2>so you know what I'm talking.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, absolutely, And you talk about cigars. The guys that

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<v Speaker 1>I play golf with, cigars are in their mouths constantly.

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<v Speaker 1>They have health problems that they want to hold inside

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<v Speaker 1>themselves and not express. Wearing a seatbelt of something I

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<v Speaker 1>resisted for decades because it wasn't a macho image of

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<v Speaker 1>Steve McQueen sunblock. I used to play get outside, work,

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<v Speaker 1>play golf, never wore copper tone. You didn't think about it. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>women are just different. So well, I guess getting back

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<v Speaker 1>to the election, you say that supposedly the country is

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<v Speaker 1>ready to elect the first female president, Kamala Harris. But

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<v Speaker 1>does she possess enough masculine traits in her personality to

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<v Speaker 1>persuade those undecided that she can lead a divided nation?

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<v Speaker 1>And I ask you the question. According to the polling,

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<v Speaker 1>trumpsters up about ten points with men and down about

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<v Speaker 1>ten points with women, just the opposite for Kamala Harris.

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<v Speaker 1>And so is America ready for a female president? Especially

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<v Speaker 1>one may I use the term minority? Are are we

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<v Speaker 1>men ready for that commander in chief?

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<v Speaker 2>Well? I hope so. But let's look at sort of

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<v Speaker 2>a term that's kind of been bandied about in this election,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the alpha male. Now, the primatologists dull who

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<v Speaker 2>recently passed away that there really are two versions of

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<v Speaker 2>the alpha male. Now, remember he studied chimpanzees, not humans.

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<v Speaker 2>But in the chimpanzee troops, there are two versions of

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<v Speaker 2>the alpha male. There's the dominant alpha who achieves this

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<v Speaker 2>power by force, right, and who tends to be have

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<v Speaker 2>a short tenure because all it takes is a coalition

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<v Speaker 2>of threer for other chimpanzees to overthrow them, okay, and

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<v Speaker 2>that happens frequently. And then there's the populate what du

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<v Speaker 2>All called the populist alpha, which again we're talking about chimpanzees,

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<v Speaker 2>so that populist term has to have a little quotation

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<v Speaker 2>marks on it. But what he's referring to are chimpanzees,

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<v Speaker 2>the male chimpanzees who achieved their power by taking care

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<v Speaker 2>of the troop, by providing resources like food and shelter,

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<v Speaker 2>by caring for sick or injured members of the troop,

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<v Speaker 2>And that particular alpha has a long tenure and is

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<v Speaker 2>actually thought to be loved by the other chimps. If

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<v Speaker 2>you look at the current election, the contrast is very similar.

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<v Speaker 2>Although Harris is obviously not a man, but she represents

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<v Speaker 2>that populous alpha. She leads by taking care. He has

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<v Speaker 2>recently said, she's if she wins, she's going to be

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<v Speaker 2>a president of all the people, right right, and she

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<v Speaker 2>just doesn't care what you're whether Republican, Democrat, independent, He

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<v Speaker 2>is going to do for you, whereas Tom Trump clearly

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<v Speaker 2>is you know, the dominant alpha.

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<v Speaker 1>He's in a garbage truck. And the other thing that

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<v Speaker 1>you never see Kamala Harrison address or something feminine. Same

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<v Speaker 1>way with Hillary Clinton. It was always in a pantsuit

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<v Speaker 1>with their chest out and looking upwards because she they

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<v Speaker 1>figured they got the female vote already. But let's go

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<v Speaker 1>after the alpha male. One thing you bring up about

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<v Speaker 1>the alpha male, I think a Planet of the Apes

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<v Speaker 1>in all those series, Caesar what was ahead of the

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<v Speaker 1>Planet of the Apes at one point, and he was

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<v Speaker 1>smaller than the orangutangs, but he had a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>of strength, but he had the wiles of a male

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<v Speaker 1>to manipulate the group. And in the business setting or

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<v Speaker 1>in life, if you have a Caesar type chimpanzee, and

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<v Speaker 1>this guy isn't the biggest, the strongest, the bravest, the

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<v Speaker 1>best looking, but the personality as such like a Napoleon

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<v Speaker 1>for example, a smaller guy who can actually dominate, that's important.

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<v Speaker 1>So when it comes down to politics, isn't it important

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<v Speaker 1>for female candidates not to have a feminine side in

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<v Speaker 1>a sense because they want to communicate to the tony

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<v Speaker 1>benders of the world, the alpha males of the world,

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<v Speaker 1>that I'm like you I'm tough and I'm mean, and

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<v Speaker 1>I can curse. I considered bar with Governor Whitmer and

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<v Speaker 1>use the F word. In fact, I said this recently

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<v Speaker 1>in a mating here at iHeartMedia that basically women use

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<v Speaker 1>the F word and aggressive language much more than males.

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<v Speaker 1>If a male in that setting with a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>professional females which dropped the F bomb here and there,

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<v Speaker 1>people would look at them. But if a woman does it,

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<v Speaker 1>you get patted on the back. Man, you're one of us.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that part of the diet, part of the mechanism.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. There have been a number of studies of successful

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<v Speaker 2>women in a variety of settings, in the military and

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<v Speaker 2>the corporate world and in politics, and clearly, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they have to demonstrate what are called stereotypically called masculine characteristics.

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<v Speaker 2>But these are easy to attain. You know, when I

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<v Speaker 2>was a college I went to college at Berkeley, the

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<v Speaker 2>University of California, Berkeley in the sixties. I'm an old guy,

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<v Speaker 2>but the women that I know do it. At Berkeley,

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<v Speaker 2>we're taking assertiveness training classes to overcome the effects of

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<v Speaker 2>their gender role, socialization to be dependent on and different

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<v Speaker 2>to men. And I think women who succeed in the

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<v Speaker 2>political world and the corporate world obviously have to take

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<v Speaker 2>on masculine characteristics because these worlds are male dominated, and

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<v Speaker 2>to succeed, you know, you've got to play by the

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<v Speaker 2>guy's rules.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Are you ready for the big question?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely?

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<v Speaker 1>I look at society and it's less and less and

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<v Speaker 1>less likely that a poor Wide or a poor Black

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<v Speaker 1>male is going to grow up with a father figure

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<v Speaker 1>in the home. Very unlikely if you live in a

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<v Speaker 1>poor Hispanic area or a poor White or a poor

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<v Speaker 1>Black area. Males tend to get what's important what is

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<v Speaker 1>not important from the street and the breakdown of the

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<v Speaker 1>family and faith the last thirty to forty years is

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<v Speaker 1>exhibited by the crime rate and by drugs, incarcerat failing.

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<v Speaker 1>Most of the human beings in college are female, and

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<v Speaker 1>when my wife attend at the University of Cincinnati in

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<v Speaker 1>the nineteen nineties in law school, hers was the first

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<v Speaker 1>class with the dominant female students. Women succeed in our

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<v Speaker 1>society much more than men succeed. We're more likely to

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<v Speaker 1>be on drugs, more likely to be in jail, more

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<v Speaker 1>likely to have drinking problems, more likely of health problems,

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<v Speaker 1>more likely not to live as long, but all of

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<v Speaker 1>society is structured to build up the female and tear

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<v Speaker 1>down the male as part of the debaucherous behavior we

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<v Speaker 1>see in our society today caused by lack of male

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<v Speaker 1>figures growing up as a little boy proper.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I don't think so. I don't think that. Give me.

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<v Speaker 2>Juri Bronson Brenner, who is a world famous developmental psychologists,

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<v Speaker 2>after studying multiple families over dozens of years, concluded that

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<v Speaker 2>every child needs at least one adult who is absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>crazy about them. It doesn't matter what their gender is.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it can be a mother, it can be

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<v Speaker 2>a father. You know what I think. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>agree with the facts that you presented, But what I

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<v Speaker 2>think has happened is that if you go back to

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteen fifties, where women couldn't even get a credit

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<v Speaker 2>card with a male signing for them, is that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the se what's called the second wave feminist movement that

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<v Speaker 2>began in nineteen sixty seven, that women have dramatically changed

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<v Speaker 2>their gender role, you know, from the sixties to the present,

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<v Speaker 2>and as a results, have achieved the kind of success

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<v Speaker 2>you've talked about. But sadly, men have remained duck and

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<v Speaker 2>attached to this outmoded model of masculinity that was prevalent

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<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen fifties. Men have not changed, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they've changed some, like the men's participation in parenting has

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<v Speaker 2>actually changed rather dramatically, but for the most part, taking

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<v Speaker 2>care of their health, being able to express their emotions,

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<v Speaker 2>men have really as a whole, not changed. And part

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<v Speaker 2>of what I try to do as a psychologist is

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<v Speaker 2>try to encourage men to recognize that what is so

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<v Speaker 2>called they're so called feminine side, their emotional intelligence, their compassion,

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<v Speaker 2>their empathy are not feminine but human, and they're you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like very valuable traits to have and every human it

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<v Speaker 2>has the capacity for them. Now.

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<v Speaker 1>Lastly, when I look at the Muslim world, whether it's

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<v Speaker 1>Afghanistan or Syria or on Iraq Egypt, I could not

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<v Speaker 1>imagine a worst place for a woman or female to

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<v Speaker 1>exist than in the world in which you're literally the

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<v Speaker 1>property of your husband or the property your father married off.

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<v Speaker 1>Platoral eradication. They have terrible circuit. They have not the

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<v Speaker 1>ability to In Afghanistan right now, women cannot be heard

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<v Speaker 1>in public. She's clothed from the top of her head,

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<v Speaker 1>to the bottom of her faci beaten on a regular basis,

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<v Speaker 1>she has no rights at all, and that has been

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<v Speaker 1>going on for decades, if not centuries. What is the

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<v Speaker 1>Can you briefly comment, if you can't, about what happens

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<v Speaker 1>in a billion households around the world where women literally

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<v Speaker 1>are beaten marginalized by men and their conditioned to do so.

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<v Speaker 1>Have you studied any of the problems of women in Syria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt,

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<v Speaker 1>terrible circumstances that their status is ignored in this country?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely. The United Nations publishes a gender equality index

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<v Speaker 2>where they rank countries based on the extent to which

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<v Speaker 2>the sexes are equal, and the countries you mentioned are

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<v Speaker 2>down at the bottom. The United States is number seventeen,

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<v Speaker 2>so we're not great. The highest countries tend to be

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<v Speaker 2>Western Europe, particularly the Scandinavian countries. And I visited Norway

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<v Speaker 2>several times and to me, the different for instance, palpable.

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<v Speaker 2>The women that I met there are so empowered, although

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<v Speaker 2>you know, women in the US are somewhat empowered, but

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<v Speaker 2>not like the women in Norway. So I think it

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<v Speaker 2>really depends on kind of the society and the ability

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<v Speaker 2>of women like in the United States. Essentially, look, in

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteen fifties, less than the only single digits of

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<v Speaker 2>mothers of small children were in the workforce. By nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty five, fifty percent of the mothers of children under

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<v Speaker 2>the age of six were in the workforce. Okay, that

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<v Speaker 2>was a dramatic change that women took upon themselves. And

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<v Speaker 2>the next thing that happened was what we call the

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<v Speaker 2>divorce revolution that began in nineteen sixty five. Who went

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<v Speaker 2>to eighty five where two thirds of the divorces were

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<v Speaker 2>initiated by the wives. So look at what happened. Women

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<v Speaker 2>gained financial independence from men, and then they lived left

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<v Speaker 2>bad marriages and droves and the statistics you reported earlier.

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<v Speaker 2>They then populated, you know, colleges and graduate in law

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<v Speaker 2>schools and medical schools, and they're just you know, as

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<v Speaker 2>we as well known, girls and women are doing much

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<v Speaker 2>better than boys and men on every educational, health and

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<v Speaker 2>social indicator there is. And my hope is that we

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<v Speaker 2>start raising boys differently, that we stop forcing them to

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<v Speaker 2>conform to these outmoded masculine norms of being unemotional, tough,

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<v Speaker 2>and dominant, and recognize we're living in a totally different

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<v Speaker 2>society and they need to develop those bills that are

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<v Speaker 2>labeled feminine, like emotional self awareness and compassion and empathy

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<v Speaker 2>to succeed in today's world.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, we have to go, but we only scratch the surface,

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<v Speaker 1>not even scratch the surface. But the book is the

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<v Speaker 1>problem with men. Insights on overcoming a traumatic childhood from

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<v Speaker 1>a world renowned psychologist, that's you, doctor Ronald Levant. The

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<v Speaker 1>book is everywhere. Once again, thank you for coming on

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<v Speaker 1>the Bill cunning Game Show and doctor you're a great American.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you very much, thank you, God bless you. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>continue with more women dominate the world. Yet they convince

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<v Speaker 1>everyone they're victims. It's a nice psychological ploy, but we

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<v Speaker 1>know what it is. Bill Cunningham, News Radio seven hundred

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<v Speaker 1>WLW