Speaker 1: I see something's going to happen.
Speaker 2: What's going to happen?
Speaker 3: I don't go up.
Speaker 4: We've got loads of participants on this one. Thank you
Speaker 4: so much to everyone for coming along today. We have
Speaker 4: just gone online, so we haven't had much of a
Speaker 4: chance to do any kind of pre amble or talk
Speaker 4: about what we're going to talk about. So I'm just
Speaker 4: going to let this flow quite freely and see what happens.
Speaker 4: What we did for the last session was that anyone
Speaker 4: who wanted to add something to the conversation put their
Speaker 4: little yellow hand up and we kind of moved the
Speaker 4: conversation along like that.
Speaker 5: So I think we'll do that.
Speaker 4: But what I wanted to do to start off with
Speaker 4: is talk about why I wanted to do the topic
Speaker 4: of sacrifice. And what I would like to do is
Speaker 4: post these sessions where they're like open forums to discuss
Speaker 4: a topic, and you've got lots of great heads altogether
Speaker 4: that you can ask questions too directly as well. So
Speaker 4: last week I think we did the Eggragor, which was
Speaker 4: really interesting, and each session will lead on from the
Speaker 4: last one as well. So in Agragor, we talked about
Speaker 4: the nature of these kind of thought form entities that
Speaker 4: start to control individuals or populations, or direct movements or
Speaker 4: kind of emanations of cult thinking perhaps I might say,
Speaker 4: or cults or any kind of cultural phenomenon. And this
Speaker 4: week I thought, drawing from a lot of the stuff
Speaker 4: that came up in the Agrogol session, we'll talk about
Speaker 4: sacrifice because very often the rigora, as we discussed, demands sacrifice.
Speaker 4: It requires feeding, it requires energy, it requires our attention.
Speaker 4: And one thing I'm thinking about a lot with the
Speaker 4: sort of current headlines and the current news and things
Speaker 4: that are going on in the world, is it seems
Speaker 4: as though there's going to be some sort of sacrifice
Speaker 4: and what is it that's going to be sacrificed. So
Speaker 4: in this session, I wanted to talk about the nature
Speaker 4: of sacrifice in magical practice, in spiritual practice, and also
Speaker 4: the nature of sacrifice as a kind of scapegoat and proxy,
Speaker 4: which is something that has been part of magical practice
Speaker 4: and rituals for.
Speaker 5: A very long time as well.
Speaker 4: So we could do a quick kind of moving through
Speaker 4: the group, and if anyone wants to put their hand
Speaker 4: up to introduce themselves and talk about that perspective on sacrifice,
Speaker 4: we could start with that perhaps. So we have a
Speaker 4: very very diverse group of people in this zoom call,
Speaker 4: so I think we should have a pretty interesting conversation.
Speaker 4: So I know Peter pretty well now. Peter is one
Speaker 4: of my pals in Istanbul, so I know Peter has
Speaker 4: very strong and interesting ideas around sacrifice and especially how
Speaker 4: that relates to mithraic practice. So, Peter, are you up
Speaker 4: for starting the ball rolling?
Speaker 6: Not really, I was hiding in the bag, but I
Speaker 6: wanted to say one thing. I don't resonate with the
Speaker 6: idea of sacrifice very much. I see it as like
Speaker 6: the other side of a coin, and for me, the
Speaker 6: other side of the coin is primary, which is the
Speaker 6: notion of service. Okay, So this is just one way
Speaker 6: of framing it. I don't want to insist on it,
Speaker 6: but I tend to emphasize the notions of service as
Speaker 6: a mode of alignment with an esoteric current, okay, And
Speaker 6: personally I see that as a larger teleological evolution. And
Speaker 6: of course there's countervailing forces at work, which we're seeing
Speaker 6: these days in a very pronounced form, and that's a
Speaker 6: very different style of agrigor, as you were pointing out.
Speaker 6: So it's not the direction in which I personally wish
Speaker 6: to focus, but I have to recognize that it's a
Speaker 6: kind of overwhelmingly negative force on the countervailing force. Let's
Speaker 6: say it's counter initiatory, and it has its own sacrificial forms.
Speaker 6: So from my perspective, we're dealing with this duality. And
Speaker 6: I'm not trying to suggest a kind of larger good
Speaker 6: versus evil duality, but one is definitely evolutionary and one
Speaker 6: seems to be counter evolutionary, let's put it that way.
Speaker 6: So that's what happens to open discussion.
Speaker 4: And I know that you write about the nature of
Speaker 4: what is often called the sacrifice of the bull in
Speaker 4: the Mathraic system. Could you maybe talk about your perspective
Speaker 4: of what was actually happening there.
Speaker 6: Well, it's such a multi level, multi valent symbol. I
Speaker 6: guess at the base level, we're talking about this turning
Speaker 6: away from the obsession with the self towards an obsession
Speaker 6: with the larger evolutionary currents in which we're all immersed.
Speaker 6: So that the ball isn't actually sacrificed. In the mithraicteroptomy,
Speaker 6: it's stabbed in the shoulder, that's to say, it's weakened
Speaker 6: in the classical way in which a bullfight proceeds through
Speaker 6: a weakening of the bull, and therefore it can just
Speaker 6: as easily be read as a weakening of primordial instincts
Speaker 6: to allow higher forms of consciousness to emerge and to
Speaker 6: take an ascendant role in your life. And again that
Speaker 6: is very much tied to this notion of service, where
Speaker 6: the lower aspects of the self are sacrificed to an extent,
Speaker 6: although willingly, willingly given up because you're pursuing a much
Speaker 6: much deeper and larger current.
Speaker 5: Okay, great, thank you very much, Peter.
Speaker 7: Iike righty, Hello, everybody. Good to be here again. I
Speaker 7: especially love what Peter is talking about here. I think
Speaker 7: it was out of everybody that I know here, which
Speaker 7: I don't know everybody, but I know many of the
Speaker 7: people here. I think Peter is who I would have
Speaker 7: chosen to lead the combo as well, because when when
Speaker 7: we've spoken many times, service has come up, and I
Speaker 7: take that attack as well. Coming from the hermetic order
Speaker 7: of the Golden Dawn. You know, a lot of people
Speaker 7: aren't fully aware because they don't get they don't get
Speaker 7: into the depths the profundity of the inner order. But
Speaker 7: it's it's based on service and self sacrifice, and really
Speaker 7: not in this kind of smug, self important way, but
Speaker 7: in in various ways that are focused through ritual and
Speaker 7: the way that I've and and of course right in
Speaker 7: your life you're wicked day living. But the way that
Speaker 7: I've come to understand it is that, well, if we're
Speaker 7: going to talk about sacrifice, I guess this is kind
Speaker 7: of my niche here is kind of parsing words neurotically
Speaker 7: like I do, like you know, alphabetizing my bookshelves and
Speaker 7: things of this nature. But we should talk about different
Speaker 7: the different kinds of sacrifice. We should clarify terms there
Speaker 7: to kind of get to the heart of what's at stake.
Speaker 7: For me, it's it's sacrificed. Very much is based on
Speaker 7: a duality, as Peter said, particularly the duality of free
Speaker 7: will and determinism. We sacrifice things all of the time.
Speaker 7: I sacrifice time for money, money for leisure. Is that
Speaker 7: all saying you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
Speaker 7: And even though this might not be sacrificed in its
Speaker 7: most grandiose aspects, it certainly applies when we're thinking about eggrigors.
Speaker 7: For me, it comes down to choosing what and how
Speaker 7: you sacrifice. And there are various types of sacrifice, right,
Speaker 7: we have material sacrifices that the ancient Hellenistic and Greco
Speaker 7: Roman theorists, even even in cultic basic cultic practices, they
Speaker 7: would sacrifice stones, they would sacrifice food, they would sacrifice
Speaker 7: all sorts of things. They would sacrifice animals. Even then,
Speaker 7: when you look at somebody like again to bring them
Speaker 7: up the Amblicus or let's say Proclus, some of the
Speaker 7: later Neo Platonic or late Platonic philosophers that were theurgically oriented,
Speaker 7: they were not necessarily concerned with placating anything they were
Speaker 7: concerned with. As the Amblicus Proclus essentially distilled it, sacrifice
Speaker 7: not for the gods, sacrifices for us. It's for us
Speaker 7: in order that we become accustomed to seeing the divine
Speaker 7: in everything around us. So you know, you can sacrifice
Speaker 7: also your as I kind of mentioned, you can sacrifice
Speaker 7: your consciousness. In ancient theurgic or hermetic terms, this would
Speaker 7: have been a sort of noedic contemplation, offering that up
Speaker 7: to a higher forces, deities, spiritual entities, but also in
Speaker 7: things like just your time and attention. We don't realize it.
Speaker 7: You know, everything out here is clamoring for your time
Speaker 7: and attention, and some of it is worthy and some
Speaker 7: of it is absolutely not.
Speaker 8: But I guess to.
Speaker 7: In creating this stratification of sacrifices, I open it up
Speaker 7: to the rest of the panel to discuss, you know what,
Speaker 7: what in particular, what aspects of sacrifice they focus on,
Speaker 7: or they're more concerned with, or how do they relate
Speaker 7: to each other. But I will definitely say, just to
Speaker 7: bring it full full circle, that that that keystone of
Speaker 7: free will and and and conscious selection of what you're
Speaker 7: going to sacrifice is tied deeply into what Peter said,
Speaker 7: sacrifice willingly given, willingly given, And it can happen on
Speaker 7: a very very mundane level, it can happen on a
Speaker 7: very very rarefied and spiritual level.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Ike, Siri.
Speaker 9: Yeah, hi everyone. So coming at this from a more
Speaker 9: kind of conceptual level, but also from from a perspective
Speaker 9: of historical developments. I really like what both Peter and
Speaker 9: Ike said, and I agree with that there is a
Speaker 9: duality to sacrifice. Catherine Bell History of Religion. She wrote
Speaker 9: a book on rituals, and she talks about sacrifice as
Speaker 9: an idea where it's not the same as as giving
Speaker 9: up and offering in the sacrifice. Usually the thing sacrificed
Speaker 9: is somehow destroid So Peter touches on this right. So
Speaker 9: the question is is it your lower self that's being
Speaker 9: sacrificed for higher purpose or you know? And is it
Speaker 9: a willing sacrifice or not? And if looking at this
Speaker 9: from like a historical developing perspective, like developmental perspective, I
Speaker 9: really like Boudrea's four faces of the image that he
Speaker 9: writes about in his book on Similar Simulation. I think
Speaker 9: that's very important to think about. So in a culture,
Speaker 9: for example, where kind of in the ancient mystery cults,
Speaker 9: the reflection of image is a reflection of profound reality.
Speaker 9: It's a pure presence, right, It's actually there the thing.
Speaker 9: It's not a symbol of something, It is the thing
Speaker 9: it symbolizes. It has a presence to it. And I
Speaker 9: think sacrifice ritually enacted in that kind of environment and
Speaker 9: that kind of framework of thinking is quite different from
Speaker 9: what you see in the later developments. So the second
Speaker 9: kind of definition that he has for it is that
Speaker 9: it kind of masks something, right, So the masking of
Speaker 9: mysterious reality or mysterious presence kind of increases as we
Speaker 9: go through the levels of history. Currently, we are very
Speaker 9: much in a in a situation where everything in society
Speaker 9: is mimicry. That you know, It's not that we don't
Speaker 9: live in this perception. I mean some of the people
Speaker 9: here probably do, because you do ritual and you're esotericist, right,
Speaker 9: But in kind of secular society, we are operating in
Speaker 9: this kind of perspective of simulacra, right, or similar simulacrum,
Speaker 9: which means that the sacrifice is no longer happened in
Speaker 9: these kinds of ritual or elevated contexts, but they happen
Speaker 9: through let's say, unwilling sacrifice of human beings to corporations
Speaker 9: for example, that sort of thing. So yeah, I think
Speaker 9: it's I think it's important to kind of distinguish that.
Speaker 9: So the way that the ancients might have understood this
Speaker 9: is really not quite what's happening in our own culture
Speaker 9: to a large extent, Right. I also want to point to,
Speaker 9: like there's a as an interesting book by Volney called
Speaker 9: The Ruins of Empires, which came out in seventeen ninety two, right,
Speaker 9: just like right around the time of the French Revolution,
Speaker 9: and he talks about this is kind of touching on
Speaker 9: Peter's earlier point of how this operates. Right, that and
Speaker 9: the ancient mystery mystery is then right are turned into
Speaker 9: moral systems and transformed, and you end up with a
Speaker 9: with a kind of notion of sacrificial rights that are
Speaker 9: warped and kind of you know, turned into their exact opposite.
Speaker 9: It's not a soulth sacrifice of service anymore. It's an
Speaker 9: enforced sacrifice of giving up your time and yourself to
Speaker 9: working for somebody who doesn't care about you or you know,
Speaker 9: who does give you any yeah, a proper return for
Speaker 9: your services, you know. So I think it's I think
Speaker 9: it's interesting to look at that development.
Speaker 5: Thank you, sirih Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think a lot of sacrifices have become a bit
Speaker 4: like a lot of religions have become more kind of
Speaker 4: symbolic and lost the essential nature because we're just paying
Speaker 4: lip service to the idea of sacrifice rather than engaging
Speaker 4: in that act of service for something.
Speaker 5: Miles, May I come to you now and ask you
Speaker 5: because I know.
Speaker 4: Miles, you go on a lot of pilgrimages and you
Speaker 4: have a quite different tradition in relationship to Tibetan Buddhism
Speaker 4: and things like this. So how does sacrifice fit in
Speaker 4: to your idea of pilgrimage, like as do you consider
Speaker 4: it to be an active service or is it a
Speaker 4: sacrifice of time and energy, because obviously making a pilgrimage
Speaker 4: is a beautiful thing as well.
Speaker 10: Thanks Sarah, and so nice to be with you all.
Speaker 10: So interesting for me to hear all the perspectives. I
Speaker 10: love how you've already laid it out so beautifully with
Speaker 10: the different levels. Just my mind works so in a
Speaker 10: weird way. I was thinking about a story. I don't
Speaker 10: know if it'll fit here, but I travel on pilgrimage.
Speaker 10: I basically curate pilgrimages for a Tibetan master, Kisha Tensen Sopa.
Speaker 10: We were in Japan two years ago. You know, from
Speaker 10: a Buddhist perspective, the pilgrimage is an act of doing
Speaker 10: two things. Basically, one is called purification and the other
Speaker 10: is accumulation of merit. I'm sure in the Western tradition
Speaker 10: there's some sort of equivalent to it, but essentially there's
Speaker 10: some shedding that needs to happen, which is done on
Speaker 10: a voluntary basis, like one takes a pilgrim's mindset to
Speaker 10: volunteer to let go of something. On the most rudimentary level,
Speaker 10: of course, it's time and money and time away from family.
Speaker 10: But then really the purification has to do with karma,
Speaker 10: the accumulation of all kinds of negative tendencies and imprints
Speaker 10: on the mindstream. And so the idea of going on
Speaker 10: a sacred journey is not just necessarily to make it
Speaker 10: to the final destination, but along the way, how one
Speaker 10: engages in just the arisings of consequences and impasses and
Speaker 10: flight delays. And I mean, imagine if you are right
Speaker 10: now in Dubai or somewhere, and you know, the difference
Speaker 10: between a tour is stranded in Dubai and a pilgrim
Speaker 10: stranded in Dubai is quite different. That condition or circumstance
Speaker 10: for the well trained would be a ripe initiatory opportunity
Speaker 10: for shedding of selfishness or greed or pride or jealousy
Speaker 10: or whatever the rub might be. And of course while
Speaker 10: things are being shed, then there's also the opportunities along
Speaker 10: the way, not just at the destination of the power places,
Speaker 10: but along the way with other pilgrims without their like
Speaker 10: minded people to to cultivate virtues. So if anyone's traveled
Speaker 10: on the Camino, for example, I mean the good cheer
Speaker 10: that is spread liberally across the road, you know, is really,
Speaker 10: you know, archetypally exactly where our civilization should be heading.
Speaker 10: You know, people of different orientations, people of different temperaments,
Speaker 10: people of their own unique predilections, still share something in common,
Speaker 10: which is gratitude and humility and respect. And so there's
Speaker 10: there's that kind of lubrication along the road. To go
Speaker 10: back to Gesha Tens and Zopa, there was a moment
Speaker 10: we were in Koyasan, which is the tantric enclave of Japan,
Speaker 10: and we had several nuns with us in addition to
Speaker 10: just a coord of mostly Western pilgrims. And then one
Speaker 10: of our nuns, you know, had a knee issue, and
Speaker 10: so we had asked for a chair in this Shikubo
Speaker 10: a guesthouse, temple guesthouse. Gesha Tens and Zoe but was
Speaker 10: with us. I was the cure organizer, So I was,
Speaker 10: you know, busying myself trying to you know, find solutions
Speaker 10: for people. The whole time, it's just you know, like,
Speaker 10: so somebody she needed a chair, and it seemed like
Speaker 10: such a modest request. You know, she couldn't sit on
Speaker 10: the floor to eat her meal. So I was looking
Speaker 10: for a chair. We asked for a chair, and there
Speaker 10: was probably one of the managers was quite blunt and
Speaker 10: said no, you know, which caught everybody off guard. And
Speaker 10: so right there in that moment, what arises in your
Speaker 10: mindstream is is the kind of thing, you know, if
Speaker 10: it's a negative, if it's a negative reaction, then it's
Speaker 10: the kind of thing that alerts to your consciousness. This
Speaker 10: is something to be purified. It could be you know, concern,
Speaker 10: it could be anger, could be outraged, it could be
Speaker 10: indignation or whatever it is, or just you know, you know,
Speaker 10: some sort of resentment or whatever. Not understanding the culture
Speaker 10: and not understanding you know. Anyway, the nun and I
Speaker 10: are looked at each other, you know, we were like,
Speaker 10: what's going on here? But Gesha, Tens and Zopa turned
Speaker 10: it into a wonderful teaching moment. You know, he's you know,
Speaker 10: in the middle of it. He basically stopped everybody and said, listen,
Speaker 10: you know, he's right. There's something so valuable from the No,
Speaker 10: when we need something for us to look at, we
Speaker 10: need we need to hear that, we need to hear
Speaker 10: more knows, especially in our culture, which is instant, instant
Speaker 10: gratification and entitlement and all of this. So it's where
Speaker 10: the rub the rub the rubber meets the road. That's
Speaker 10: where Gesha tens and Zoba was saying, no, No, that's
Speaker 10: where you're This is our teacher. He was basically saying,
Speaker 10: this is a tradition in Tibet called lo jung the
Speaker 10: mind transformation. It's taking the adversity and turning it on
Speaker 10: its own head and showing you, you know, in the
Speaker 10: mirror where the work can be, where the work can
Speaker 10: be applied. But then he did this other remarkable thing.
Speaker 10: And I don't hope I'm not taking too much time
Speaker 10: in boring you, but it'll always stay with me. He said,
Speaker 10: who's moving? Actually, he said, you know, don't Don't you
Speaker 10: think I want to be comfortable too? Don't you think
Speaker 10: I want to be stress free and have a fun life.
Speaker 10: Don't you think I want to live in a comfortable
Speaker 10: high bed? He and I never I've been with him
Speaker 10: twenty years. He never said this either, said, don't you
Speaker 10: think I want a family and kids, so I want
Speaker 10: all of that, but none of that is conducive to
Speaker 10: my higher aspiration. And this is what is regarded in
Speaker 10: our tradition as the great Bodhisatfa resolved the altruists, the
Speaker 10: awakened altruists who seeks to benefit others using their embodiment
Speaker 10: and whatever challenges arise. And so what he is at
Speaker 10: the very end was I'm up to my neck in responsibility.
Speaker 10: He grabbed his story like that, he said, but I'm
Speaker 10: only looking for more. I'm only looking for more. I
Speaker 10: don't know where that lands for people, or even in
Speaker 10: the right track here, but you know, when you asked
Speaker 10: me to come on, I thought the first thought I
Speaker 10: thought of about sacrifice with some image of like a
Speaker 10: goat on an altar in Greece or something. I don't
Speaker 10: know why that, but here it is. Here's the image
Speaker 10: that you know. Maybe you can speak to it, any
Speaker 10: of you. What the hell am I talking about? How
Speaker 10: do I make this departure? What relevance does this story have?
Speaker 5: That's great, very relevant?
Speaker 4: I think anyone else want to come in after myles
Speaker 4: lovely story?
Speaker 5: Thank you, Miles, I'd.
Speaker 11: Be happy to jump in Sarah, Yeah, I'm kind of
Speaker 11: approaching this from a place of curiosity and mystery, as
Speaker 11: since sacrifice and offerings is this universal that shows up
Speaker 11: across cultures, why does it show up in so many
Speaker 11: different places? You know, what is the origins the origins
Speaker 11: of the sacrificial impulse, So that that's curious for me
Speaker 11: as well, and maybe someone else could touch on that.
Speaker 11: But there are a number of counterpoints and examples in
Speaker 11: history that the kind of imply the need for the
Speaker 11: self sacrifice and kind of the virtuous behavior at the
Speaker 11: earliest stage. One early example of this is the book
Speaker 11: Book of Isaiah, right where God is condemning the Israelites
Speaker 11: for having so much blood on their hands, but for
Speaker 11: not having a corresponding virtue expressed in their behavior. And
Speaker 11: then you get, you know, we could jump to Apollonius
Speaker 11: of Tyana, who's who's looking at these characters approach the
Speaker 11: temple and they're throwing gold, and they're throwing animals, and
Speaker 11: you know, they're they're wealthy, and they're throwing is all
Speaker 11: these things at the altar and they're thinking that you
Speaker 11: know this, this is clearly a projection of their ego
Speaker 11: in the sacrifice they're not really sacrificing anything that's that's
Speaker 11: actually has that emotional kind of connection to them. And
Speaker 11: he kind of he, you know, he corrects this and
Speaker 11: and he encourages this verbal or sacrifice of intelligence and gratitude,
Speaker 11: and it brings it back to this internal kind of
Speaker 11: behavioral approach, which is also implied in the sort of
Speaker 11: Book of Isaiah that you need that corresponding behavior or
Speaker 11: else these rituals are just the you know, these kind
Speaker 11: of meaningless, meaningless rituals without any correspondence. And you know
Speaker 11: in across the corpus her medicum in a f you places,
Speaker 11: when they talk about sacrifice, it is it is explicitly
Speaker 11: in this kind of verbal in the in the manner
Speaker 11: of how you pray and you know what you're giving
Speaker 11: gratitude for and you're sacrificing the twelve avenging diamonds, which
Speaker 11: are which are these sinful behaviors. So uh, those are
Speaker 11: some early examples of of sacrifice you know, connected with
Speaker 11: self transformation. And that's like that strikes me as very
Speaker 11: applicable to our modern predicament, you know, especially with our
Speaker 11: instant gratification society and so and so on. We should
Speaker 11: get clear about you know, what we are sacrificing and
Speaker 11: and why. And I think in everyone's life, you're going
Speaker 11: to reach this the kind of the dark night of
Speaker 11: the soul moment where you get this choice and the choices.
Speaker 11: You know, do I want to sacrifice these these darker
Speaker 11: aspects and these greedier aspects of my ego that they
Speaker 11: make me feel good and they provide this kind of
Speaker 11: short term you know, rushes of dopamine and so forth.
Speaker 11: Do I want to sacrifice those things for this higher
Speaker 11: calling and this higher purpose? And right there is the
Speaker 11: kind of conversation that I think is very applicable to
Speaker 11: our modern predicament.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Colin, thank you very much.
Speaker 4: That really reminds me of like Peter mentioned sacrifice as
Speaker 4: being this kind of purification process and that it isn't
Speaker 4: something necessarily that you are unwilling to give up. It's
Speaker 4: an act of service. And it makes me think about
Speaker 4: the kind of our chemical dimension of sacrifice, this idea
Speaker 4: of burning away everything that is impure to get to
Speaker 4: the essence, to get to the spirit of something. And
Speaker 4: I wonder whether very ancient people, because we can't really
Speaker 4: say how long this idea of sacrifice has been gone
Speaker 4: on for But if you look at ritual centers in Anatolia,
Speaker 4: for example, certainly some sort of practices were occurring there
Speaker 4: perhaps something that we could compare to sort of later
Speaker 4: ideas of sacrifice. But I wonder whether it was something
Speaker 4: that was noticed in the natural world. I think, you know,
Speaker 4: we're just the vernal equinox now, and it does seem
Speaker 4: as though the world goes through this process of death, sacrifice, destruction,
Speaker 4: and then rises again in the spring to be this
Speaker 4: pure new life. So maybe it was something that people
Speaker 4: saw mirrored in the natural world, that the world goes
Speaker 4: through this process of offering up in abundance and then
Speaker 4: being sacrificed, dying, returning to the earth, and then being
Speaker 4: reborn in the springtime as well, because you know, a
Speaker 4: lot of you have mentioned the mystery cults, and that tends.
Speaker 5: To be the agrarian.
Speaker 4: The early agrarian rights are generally the things that turn
Speaker 4: into mystery cults, and then the idea of sacrifice becomes
Speaker 4: like a regular ritual feet to of them.
Speaker 12: I I'd love to add on to that, yepdon So, yeah,
Speaker 12: it kind of nails it with exactly what you're saying
Speaker 12: in Colin and everyone else is speaking quite quite clearly
Speaker 12: about that, and quite wisely, I'd like to add into
Speaker 12: the idea of sacrifice as kind of stemming from the
Speaker 12: ideals of to make sacred right, and so a lot
Speaker 12: of in our current.
Speaker 8: Zeitgeist we see sacrifice as.
Speaker 12: You know, as Miles talked about at the end, this
Speaker 12: whole bringing up the goat on a pillar and piriy
Speaker 12: and sacrificing it to the gods. And I like to
Speaker 12: try to understand that through somebody who has changed my life,
Speaker 12: Joseph Campbell, right, and the Mono myth and the hero's journey,
Speaker 12: And I think it's important that we understand that what
Speaker 12: these symbolic references actually do for our own psychological transformation
Speaker 12: is that when we're adhering to and accepting the call
Speaker 12: to adventure, we're actually sacrificing the old self for something new.
Speaker 12: And then once we go out into that adventure, we
Speaker 12: are actually sacrifices at the very underpinning of everything the
Speaker 12: individual does along the journey. And so you do have
Speaker 12: that initial call to adventure sacrifice, but then you also
Speaker 12: have the great supreme ordeal, as Joseph Campbell called it,
Speaker 12: and that is once you're in the belly of the beast,
Speaker 12: you must make the grandest of sacrifices to obtain the
Speaker 12: holy supplical, you know, the Philosopher's Stone, the Holy Grail
Speaker 12: or whatever that is. And then once you have that,
Speaker 12: you have to steal make more sacrifices because the actual,
Speaker 12: the hero's journey, the call to adventure, these things are
Speaker 12: never done. You also, then upon the departure, when you
Speaker 12: go home, you make that sacrifice one last time. You
Speaker 12: must sacrifice everything that then you've become, to give that
Speaker 12: Philosopher's Stone or that Holy Grail away to then the
Speaker 12: village that you once left, which is really important. So
Speaker 12: I think, especially in mono myth, like Joseph Campbell Way,
Speaker 12: we always forget that the sacrifice is happening throughout the
Speaker 12: whole thing, and then to bring it to kind of
Speaker 12: my specialty and my nerddom is that one of the
Speaker 12: greatest canons of alchemical literature is actually something called Full
Speaker 12: Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and it's one of my favorite anime
Speaker 12: of all time, and the very underpinning of that show
Speaker 12: is actually the laws of equivalent exchange, which speak of
Speaker 12: to obtain something something of equal value must be lost,
Speaker 12: and I think that we are doing that.
Speaker 8: All the time.
Speaker 12: Like everyone said before me, is that we're giving away
Speaker 12: our awareness, we're giving away our impressions, or you know,
Speaker 12: it's actually in everything we see at all times, in
Speaker 12: these black mirrors that we hold right next to us.
Speaker 12: The thing we're looking into is that, as Colin put
Speaker 12: on his Instagram, he's sacrificing his mourning to come be
Speaker 12: here with us, you know, which I thought to be
Speaker 12: both very quippy and very hilarious. And it's the truth
Speaker 12: is that we are at all times giving up a
Speaker 12: little of ourself.
Speaker 8: And so it's really interesting. How then, when I spoke to.
Speaker 12: Mark Stavish for one of my interviews in his great
Speaker 12: book The Aggregor, you know, he didn't really want to
Speaker 12: talk about that, because it seems that the aggregre is
Speaker 12: what comes up in all things that we do. So
Speaker 12: upon talking about just living in the world, we are
Speaker 12: actually always sacrificing to some greater idea. And so upon
Speaker 12: this journey and this call to adventure, we must understand
Speaker 12: that we are going to become conscious agents so we
Speaker 12: can become initiates, or so we can be ones who
Speaker 12: are actually heroes on the journey, so we understand what
Speaker 12: we are actually sacrificing, so we can then transmute that
Speaker 12: and then gain that thing that we can then bring
Speaker 12: back to the world because it's not enough just to
Speaker 12: do it for ourselves. But I think kind of what
Speaker 12: Miles was talking about is that body sought for nature,
Speaker 12: is that we're trying to each individual, especially on this panel,
Speaker 12: as we are all you know, esotericis or magicians or
Speaker 12: whatever it is philosophers, we must understand that the greatest
Speaker 12: sacrifice is the self for the higher self or the
Speaker 12: greater self. And then once we do that, we can
Speaker 12: go back to our family and our small cities and
Speaker 12: our towns, thus giving whatever that holy grail is to
Speaker 12: ours that we've gained on the journey to the rest
Speaker 12: of our people. So that's kind of my little take
Speaker 12: on what is it that we're sacrificing. Well, you know,
Speaker 12: we can make that decision every time we leave our
Speaker 12: small little circles and go out in the world, and
Speaker 12: then we can become that agent of agent of light
Speaker 12: or to or we can understand that truth can then
Speaker 12: disclose itself to us and we can then become change.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Brandon, as you were talking, though, I'm reminded
Speaker 4: of the story of Prometheus tricking Zeus and sneaking the
Speaker 4: kind of bones underneath the glistening layer of fat story.
Speaker 4: I wonder if anyone wanted to talk about that, because
Speaker 4: that's kind of like the archetypal sacrifice from mythology, this
Speaker 4: idea that sacrifice is a theohennia, a sacred meal with
Speaker 4: the gods. So thinking about sacrifices, this kind of magical
Speaker 4: act of sharing and binding with the creators of the world,
Speaker 4: with these divine entities.
Speaker 5: JB.
Speaker 4: I wondered if you might like to talk about the
Speaker 4: kind of astrological, astronomical magical entanglements between what we do
Speaker 4: here on Earth what we can give to the entities
Speaker 4: of the stars and the planets.
Speaker 5: Have you got some thoughts about that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think you know. I've been preparing
Speaker 3: to have to talk about this or try to talk
Speaker 3: about this with others. A lot of my initial cluster
Speaker 3: of thoughts and impressions really came from my original background
Speaker 3: is in anthropology, So generally I would look in like
Speaker 3: a broader way in my understanding at a topic and
Speaker 3: then how it might tie into how I've been bound
Speaker 3: up in different traditions that have elements which could be
Speaker 3: talked about within the idea of sacrifice. And so yes,
Speaker 3: definitely in terms of what we might call like astrological practices,
Speaker 3: I think that there is a thing to talk about
Speaker 3: in there, but to tie it back to something that
Speaker 3: you were saying earlier about what is it that we
Speaker 3: may be seeing in the world that we then relate
Speaker 3: to this And that led me first to the ideas
Speaker 3: that arise from within Vedic traditions, which is the idea
Speaker 3: that the sun is cooking the world. And you know,
Speaker 3: this is an idea that comes from an anthropologist named
Speaker 3: Malamud who is studying Vedic ritual and the practice of
Speaker 3: fire offerings that were made and where animals substances or
Speaker 3: plant substances are burned in a puja, and some interesting
Speaker 3: things come up around that, and that, you know, the
Speaker 3: the thing that is really being thought about is this
Speaker 3: idea of cooking the world and participating in its cooking
Speaker 3: is like a way that it's like the right way
Speaker 3: to bring both like an internal and an external sort
Speaker 3: of aspect to what's going on. So ultimately, within those traditions,
Speaker 3: the brahman who is doing the puja is the actual sacrifice.
Speaker 3: They are the sacrifice themselves, and it's through substitution based
Speaker 3: on ideas around what animals or plants may be appropriate
Speaker 3: to represent the transformation that they are actually enlictiting within
Speaker 3: themselves that goes on there. And I don't know like
Speaker 3: how relevant that is, but I think that equally, like
Speaker 3: it's hard for me not to think about what might
Speaker 3: be the case of what we may define as sacrifice
Speaker 3: within and like these contexts that later become through like
Speaker 3: different tantric and Patashanic traditions become more about all internalized.
Speaker 3: So the body is the site of the sacrifice, the
Speaker 3: breath is the agent of what is sacrificed, and the
Speaker 3: mind or transformation to the mind or contemplation become like
Speaker 3: the thing that is ultimately involved in all of that.
Speaker 3: So there's not a a there's really the sacrifice of
Speaker 3: the self or like aspects of the self that are
Speaker 3: involved in that. Or you could have within Buddhist tantric
Speaker 3: stuff like Miles would be more familiar with. You know,
Speaker 3: there's wrong perceptions that you're trying to annihilate by sacrificing
Speaker 3: the some version of a misunderstanding of self is existent,
Speaker 3: and in that way, you know, you're actually visualizing chopping
Speaker 3: your own body up offering in a cup to like
Speaker 3: the deities or the Buddhists that you work with. So
Speaker 3: in all these you see like how at least within
Speaker 3: those you're all seeing how the self of the purse,
Speaker 3: of the person who's offering the sacrifice, some aspect of
Speaker 3: them is like bound up in the actual process of
Speaker 3: what is going on. You know, there's not like a
Speaker 3: separateness from it. And the last two that I would
Speaker 3: maybe bring in and then I'll be quiet about it
Speaker 3: for a little while and then eventually answer your question
Speaker 3: about the astromagic part is that withinanimous systems usually is
Speaker 3: about relationships, and so if you kill, killing will always
Speaker 3: maybe has the potential to disrupt spiritual and also social
Speaker 3: broader social connections that we view it as like relational.
Speaker 3: So in this way, ritual is usually utilized to maintain
Speaker 3: reciprocity and dynamics within within a broader understanding of the group.
Speaker 3: And so for me like trying to move away from
Speaker 3: certain things that might be more obvious with an astromagic
Speaker 3: where ultimately you could take examples from the PGM or
Speaker 3: from the picka tricks where we have the idea that
Speaker 3: how we engage in it, be it animal, plant, or mineral.
Speaker 3: It's usually combined with the timing. So if it is
Speaker 3: like a solar related thing, there's often like either the
Speaker 3: sun is in strong a strong way in an astrological sense,
Speaker 3: or we're aligning it with a solar an important solar
Speaker 3: moment like dawn and the sacrifice. Animals are burn because
Speaker 3: they have a quality that relates to the cosmic force,
Speaker 3: and a lot of times through those there's either a
Speaker 3: thought that you're either aligning with like a natural connection,
Speaker 3: you know, so you're utilizing all this do that if
Speaker 3: you're making talentsmans or insult statues or whatever you might
Speaker 3: think of it, whatever tradition, it's usually utilizing of the
Speaker 3: animals components which are either released to I guess bring
Speaker 3: forward the cosmic essence if you will, because there probably
Speaker 3: are speaking about an idea of the sacrificing, the burning
Speaker 3: or the killing of the animal as being is a
Speaker 3: way of releasing that essence. And then it could be
Speaker 3: to again elevate you to the place of the gods
Speaker 3: or where we want to think about that or the
Speaker 3: gods in the world is being reat rated, like I mentioned,
Speaker 3: or it could be also about trying to bring that
Speaker 3: into a more material form that is now held or
Speaker 3: within a talisman or statue, you know. So it's like
Speaker 3: a sense of alignment that is going on there. But
Speaker 3: I think that, you know, this is something that anyone
Speaker 3: who's engaged, and I'm not a reconstructionist, so I don't
Speaker 3: like obsess over trying to figure out exactly what was
Speaker 3: done before so that I can repeat it perfectly as
Speaker 3: it should be done. But I think that any time
Speaker 3: I've ever been engaged and the practices that I am
Speaker 3: involved with, with making talismans or with various things that
Speaker 3: could be thought of as theurgical, you know, a lot
Speaker 3: of these the messiness of these thoughts sort of sit
Speaker 3: within my understanding about it, and it's kind of evolving.
Speaker 3: But the last thing that I kind of wanted to
Speaker 3: say and then I will be quiet, that brings it
Speaker 3: back to what you were saying, is that I think
Speaker 3: the way that sacrifice inhabits like a contemporary Western imagination
Speaker 3: is an important thing for us to sit with within
Speaker 3: a conversation because we generally think about human sacrifice and
Speaker 3: we think about blood. You know, and these things have
Speaker 3: a rich history within Christianity that I think are quite
Speaker 3: important and the way that Christianity has a lasting influence
Speaker 3: within our social and our imagination social life and imagination.
Speaker 3: But equally, I think that it sits within that idea.
Speaker 3: And I don't know if this is the right way
Speaker 3: to say it, but I think, like a lot of people,
Speaker 3: when they're imagining it, they're imagining like a releasing of
Speaker 3: some kind of bound up libidinal force. That is, like
Speaker 3: we enter some very strange state of primal something when
Speaker 3: we would kill another human and offer their blood, you know.
Speaker 3: So in this way, what is released really from that
Speaker 3: kind of aligned to the idea of something as being
Speaker 3: released when it's happening. But then why it is happening
Speaker 3: and what transformation is it meant to elicit or what
Speaker 3: relationship is it like recreating? I think is up for
Speaker 3: a question in the moment, which maybe is more relevant
Speaker 3: to the focus of why you wanted to bring it up.
Speaker 3: So anyway, that was enough, I've said too much.
Speaker 4: That was great, Thank you very much, jad Alike, You've
Speaker 4: got your hand up.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that was actually quite relevant, I think, and beautifully
Speaker 7: put in a lot of instances, and I guess I'll
Speaker 7: elaborate a little bit based off of what JD was
Speaker 7: talking about. I speak mostly not entirely, but mostly in
Speaker 7: an experiential component or capacity from you know, both Freemasonry,
Speaker 7: but more in particularly the hermetic order of the Golden Dawn.
Speaker 7: And so that's kind of where I'm gonna you know,
Speaker 7: that's where I'm going to be coming from. But there's
Speaker 7: a mundane sacrifice in this system, or an acknowledgment of
Speaker 7: mundane sacrifices, and then there is a gesturing toward and
Speaker 7: eventually a revealing, a revelation of a greater sacrifice, what
Speaker 7: we might call a spiritual sacrifice to use a kind
Speaker 7: of cliche and generic and hazy term, but an example
Speaker 7: of mundane sacrifice not you know, Okay, moving on from
Speaker 7: sacrificing time, sacrificing money, sacrificing energy, there are sacrifice vice
Speaker 7: is that need to be made. In other words, we
Speaker 7: sacrifice the innocence and the leisure of childhood for the
Speaker 7: changes in anatomy and position within family, within society that
Speaker 7: puberty brings about, and then eventually into adulthood. That's a
Speaker 7: sacrifice that has to be made. If you're not willing
Speaker 7: to make that sacrifice. Vice in all of its ways
Speaker 7: is going to be painful for you. Now that change
Speaker 7: itself is painful regardless, right, I mean, most of us
Speaker 7: I think here can recall our those that change and like, eh,
Speaker 7: you know, like I wouldn't want to go back for
Speaker 7: any amount of money. But there is a prolonged pain
Speaker 7: that is fighting nature. And so in the Golden Dawn,
Speaker 7: when you're first initiated, you're called a neo phicitos neophyte.
Speaker 7: That means obviously many people here speak you understand this
Speaker 7: language newly planted. What is being implied specifically in the
Speaker 7: Golden Dawn through this is that like a seed, you
Speaker 7: have something in you. You have an oak tree, you
Speaker 7: have a maple tree, but that thing cannot take root
Speaker 7: and grow until you die. You you, the seed must
Speaker 7: become something completely different in order to fulfill what it
Speaker 7: was meant to do.
Speaker 3: Okay, So.
Speaker 7: I also studied Chinese medicine for years. That's my primary
Speaker 7: educational background. In Chinese medicine, we'd say that the seed
Speaker 7: and it's it's it's dissolving of that outer membrane and
Speaker 7: the setting of roots and the shooting of the of
Speaker 7: the sprout that it does that because it's it's chi. Okay,
Speaker 7: it's not just chi. Isn't just this substance. It's a
Speaker 7: term to reflect nature, what nature does.
Speaker 8: It does this because it's it's chi.
Speaker 7: I would say our you know, our chi, or if
Speaker 7: we want to put it in proclean terms, our paradigm,
Speaker 7: our greatest good, the thing that we are constantly trying
Speaker 7: to get back to and mimic. Some people have a
Speaker 7: very confused way of doing this, right. They think that
Speaker 7: they're that they're trying for their greatest good, even when
Speaker 7: they're doing horrible things. It's cheating, people, lying, stealing that
Speaker 7: they think that they're going for their greatest good. But
Speaker 7: our chi our greatest good, and at least according to
Speaker 7: the Platonic philosophy, and I agree with this, would be
Speaker 7: our eros eros. It's not in terms of physical erotic love,
Speaker 7: but more so the desire that our soul has for reunion.
Speaker 7: That reunion isn't just you kind of you know, ascending
Speaker 7: into the stratosphere and dissolving, you know, becoming one with
Speaker 7: the cosmos. In a more practical sense, it's grounding in
Speaker 7: the material reality and recognizing everything around you as divine,
Speaker 7: and nothing here is more or less important than you
Speaker 7: particularly less nothing here is less important or or yeah,
Speaker 7: less important than than you are. You know, everything is
Speaker 7: kind of has that equal amount of of divinity in it,
Speaker 7: but each of us has a different chi. And I
Speaker 7: would orient strongly that this, this sacrifice is in order
Speaker 7: to it is something that has to happen in order
Speaker 7: for us to evolve into our greatest good, into our
Speaker 7: highest errors. And in the Golden Dawn we say, when
Speaker 7: you take your obligation, you say, from this day forward,
Speaker 7: I die to the old life and am reborn to
Speaker 7: the new. And you vow to expend every possible energy,
Speaker 7: effort resource in the pursuit of being elevated and rising
Speaker 7: by divine aid to union with your higher divine genius,
Speaker 7: which is the personal diamond, the familiar, the personal diamond
Speaker 7: is the is the higher genius of the Golden Dawn tradition.
Speaker 7: And we say, in doing so, to become more than human.
Speaker 7: But uh, in my experiences, it's not necessarily to become
Speaker 7: in viewed with angelic or or godly powers. It's to
Speaker 7: become more than just human. So in other words, to
Speaker 7: wrap put a big bow on this For me, the experience,
Speaker 7: at least of where I am in this process is
Speaker 7: to be led to have guidance that is higher than
Speaker 7: just what you want in that immediate moment, or even
Speaker 7: even you sitting there with pen and pencil trying to
Speaker 7: draw out this equation and say, oh, you know, well,
Speaker 7: if I do it this way and do it that way,
Speaker 7: it'll work and it'll be for the greatest good and
Speaker 7: a lot of times right as we say, man plans
Speaker 7: and the God's laugh.
Speaker 8: So it's this this.
Speaker 7: Ability to be led and getting in touch with with
Speaker 7: I think you know these a sort of higher order
Speaker 7: of of of of intelligence. I think you know that's
Speaker 7: what it looks like for me. That's what it looks
Speaker 7: like for a Golden Dawn practitioner. It's it's that making
Speaker 7: that communication and then widening that stream and allowing yourself
Speaker 7: to be guided through this life.
Speaker 4: Thank you, I Peter and archistis could I bring you
Speaker 4: in at this point? I'd love to hear your perspective
Speaker 4: and how you see sacrifice or if you have responses
Speaker 4: to anyone.
Speaker 13: So far, many many interesting things said, and I'll try
Speaker 13: and feed some of the thoughts I had about what
Speaker 13: I've been hearing. But my background is my spiritual path
Speaker 13: is as a dancer. So dance is my spiritual path,
Speaker 13: and particularly it is specifically Bhuto. And there is an
Speaker 13: image of the great burnt sacrifice, so dance as being
Speaker 13: a great burned offering or sacrifice. And also one of
Speaker 13: the sort of core positions within Butho is called the
Speaker 13: ash column walk, or it's a walk where one removes.
Speaker 13: It's like an emptying or a removal of the sort
Speaker 13: of daily consciousness and just an eradicated of the self
Speaker 13: in order to transform. So it's this zero point or
Speaker 13: this empty body, which is the sacrifice itself through dance
Speaker 13: and the transformations the transformation of the body of the
Speaker 13: self of movement, but on a spiritual level as well,
Speaker 13: is driven by sacrifice. But this kind of sacrifice dance
Speaker 13: and movement is sacrifice and breath and intention And so
Speaker 13: I was, yes, like time, attention, all of these things
Speaker 13: are sacrifice, but I was thinking about intentionality as well,
Speaker 13: that we're when I'm dancing, there's a sort of a breath,
Speaker 13: a greater breath with the cosmos, in which there is
Speaker 13: an exchange continually like a cycling. It's sort of like
Speaker 13: alchemically charges up the energy so that more change is driven,
Speaker 13: more transformation can take place, and it's in this sort
Speaker 13: of reciprocal relationship with what's outside through the breath and
Speaker 13: through movement. But I also thought that we are also participating,
Speaker 13: Like not every time that we lose our attention or
Speaker 13: we give our time, are we making sacrifice, because so
Speaker 13: often we're participating as sacrificed as just giving our potential
Speaker 13: or giving up time and not being consciously like doing that,
Speaker 13: but it just being this lowering of attention and consciousness,
Speaker 13: or just to consider the idea of participating in the
Speaker 13: world as we are, that we are living now in
Speaker 13: other people's sacrifices, knowingly or unknowingly, and how one deals
Speaker 13: with how one psychologically but also emotionally recognize as one's
Speaker 13: participation in like the whole world of sacrifice, this turning
Speaker 13: through lives being's death. Yeah, I don't know if that
Speaker 13: made a lot of sense. It's it really is. Within Bhuttos,
Speaker 13: sacrifice is the thing which drives transformation and drives spiritual transformation.
Speaker 13: So dance is the thing which allows us to become
Speaker 13: more than human or other than human. That's really the
Speaker 13: thing I wanted that I had been thinking about this, yeah,
Speaker 13: rather than the sort of kind of cliched ideas of sacrifice.
Speaker 13: That's one aspect of which sacrifice is central to what
Speaker 13: I do.
Speaker 14: So hi everyone, thank you, Thank you everyone. He's here
Speaker 14: and for all getting up your time. It's been lovely
Speaker 14: to you your different perspectives and just talk. Under a
Speaker 14: few sort of headings, I've been making one of seeing here,
Speaker 14: of blood, fire and flowers. So my background is in
Speaker 14: Western tradition from a plemically inspired part. So the majority
Speaker 14: of my work has been engaged with a sacrifice practice
Speaker 14: based on some of Crony's ideas about the bloody sacrifice,
Speaker 14: about the offering of the self to the beloved. So
Speaker 14: the ideas that I have around sacrifice come out of
Speaker 14: my own personal work, which is very often and offering
Speaker 14: work of blood and fluids Jesus is like the typical
Speaker 14: Western tantric approach to things. And I was hoping we
Speaker 14: were going to have Judio here as well, because one
Speaker 14: of the things that's missing in the West is an
Speaker 14: offering of animals in sacrifice. Most of the time, as
Speaker 14: Western practitioners, what we're doing is we're talking about giving
Speaker 14: ourselves up to the higher self, or sacrificing ourselves as
Speaker 14: the self the beloved, rather than rather than sacrificing something
Speaker 14: to a spirit as part of a transactional relationship. So
Speaker 14: I just wanted to say that there are a few
Speaker 14: things to think about with this blood sacrifice, and one
Speaker 14: of them. One of them is very much what we
Speaker 14: know about which everyone has two wolves and which wolf
Speaker 14: do you feed? And there's always a risk when you're
Speaker 14: engaged in a practice of sacrifice that you're entering into
Speaker 14: a pact or an arrangement with spirit, and in doing so,
Speaker 14: it's quite easy to be pulled out of shape by
Speaker 14: that and by the demands of the spirits you're working with.
Speaker 14: So there's also a negotiation with sacrifice. There's a there's
Speaker 14: a need to both have boundaries and also to push
Speaker 14: one's boundaries. And it's that that difficult process which often
Speaker 14: goes wrong for Western practitioners, largely because they're working as
Speaker 14: lone individuals rather than in the temple setting. For example
Speaker 14: that IC has with a Golden Dawn group that seems
Speaker 14: to be a rarity rather than the rule. The rule
Speaker 14: tends to be alone individuals making terrible mistakes so that
Speaker 14: the path of sacrifice can very often lead to people
Speaker 14: living disordered, dysfunctional, chaotic lives and thinking that they're engaged
Speaker 14: in the process of sacrifice when they're in fact simply
Speaker 14: engaged in the process of failing disastrously at life. So
Speaker 14: that's the blood part of it. The second aspect that
Speaker 14: I wanted to mention was fire. So fire is a
Speaker 14: very important part of the sacrificial process that I work with.
Speaker 14: We see this classically with the example of Jack Parsons.
Speaker 14: When Jack went through the Babylon working, he spent a
Speaker 14: lot of time passing things through the fire to the goddess.
Speaker 14: So he was putting things that were important to him
Speaker 14: into the other world, very much giving up things that
Speaker 14: he didn't want to give up, which was interesting to
Speaker 14: me because some of my some of my earliest magical
Speaker 14: work involved burning objects that I didn't wish to pass
Speaker 14: through the fire. So there's there's a need to give
Speaker 14: up something that that is difficult for oneself. And again
Speaker 14: with with blood offering, I'm I'm pretty hemophobic. So when
Speaker 14: I when I make a blood offering, it's not something
Speaker 14: that that I wish to do. It's something that my
Speaker 14: body rebels against me doing so. In order to do so,
Speaker 14: I'm extending my control over myself. And again, something we
Speaker 14: do with books very often, when we've finished a book,
Speaker 14: we will we will pass a copy of the book
Speaker 14: through the fire into the other world. So we're literally,
Speaker 14: we're literally going through that boundary and using fire to
Speaker 14: pass through into the other world for there. And then
Speaker 14: the final thing I wanted to talk about was flowers.
Speaker 14: So I've been reading a lot of H. Lawrence at
Speaker 14: the moment, so everything in my head is a bit
Speaker 14: d Lawrency. So we were up on the moors for
Speaker 14: the equinox the other day, and there are a lot
Speaker 14: of very old stone teams up there, and so we
Speaker 14: went to make sacrifice with the spring equinox. And the
Speaker 14: sacrifice that I made for the spring equinox was a
Speaker 14: single wild violet and an offering of water to the
Speaker 14: dead to communicate and talk to them about spring coming
Speaker 14: back to the land and to spend some time in
Speaker 14: their world. And this is the other thing with sacrifice
Speaker 14: in that this I'm very careful about what I take
Speaker 14: and what I offer and where it comes from. This
Speaker 14: is a very remote site and I found a bank
Speaker 14: of wild violets, and I took a single one of
Speaker 14: these tiny flowers as not a sacrifice. And the question
Speaker 14: is whether is this my sacrifice to the dead or
Speaker 14: is this the violet sacrifice to the dead.
Speaker 8: Is this the.
Speaker 14: Sacrifice that's coming from the land, And what part do
Speaker 14: I have in passing through this this kind of these
Speaker 14: great kind of rivers of time when I'm talking to
Speaker 14: the ancient dead and I'm talking to the spirits of
Speaker 14: the plants that are in the land, and I'm engaging
Speaker 14: in this. So sacrifice is such a such a huge,
Speaker 14: a huge subject for all of us. And it's a negotiation,
Speaker 14: and it's an offering of self and it's an offering
Speaker 14: of other and this is standing in for something that
Speaker 14: we're doing when we're engaged in the process. And I
Speaker 14: hope that's that's some help people.
Speaker 5: That was wonderful.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Alchistics, Thank you so much, Peter
Speaker 4: and our Chista. Is what you mentioned about you're dancing
Speaker 4: and was it the column of ash that you mentioned?
Speaker 5: It really makes me think of this idea of.
Speaker 4: To prepare yourself in a theurgic sense. Is this idea
Speaker 4: of an emptying out, making yourself this pure empty vessel,
Speaker 4: so that you can be filled with divine essence, almost
Speaker 4: like a possession. And that makes me think as well
Speaker 4: about sacrifice, as I mentioned at the beginning, as this
Speaker 4: preparation of a scapegoat or a proxy that takes on
Speaker 4: the unwanted aspects of self. Say, for example, in magical
Speaker 4: medical practice, you transfer an illnessness onto a goat and
Speaker 4: then you slaughter the goat, or you set the goat
Speaker 4: out to row and free and you just send it off.
Speaker 4: So wonderful points. Thank you both of you so much.
Speaker 4: Anyone else I.
Speaker 5: Saw, Sewen that you had your hand up earlier. Are
Speaker 5: you there, Shen, Hello, Hi, Sarah, Hi everyone.
Speaker 2: That's as the pleasure to hear everybody's perspective. The way
Speaker 2: that I come to the study of what the sacrifice
Speaker 2: is is my background is in engineering and in chemical engineering,
Speaker 2: and I have done a lot of work related to
Speaker 2: different processes that consciousness can also be part of the medium,
Speaker 2: the flow and the potentials to go. When we're basically
Speaker 2: like in the physics that we know, there is always
Speaker 2: a flow from where the potential is higher to where
Speaker 2: the potential is lower. So when you bring this into
Speaker 2: phenomenology of experiences and looking to sacrifice from that sense,
Speaker 2: the way that I have been studying it, it's actually
Speaker 2: coming from mass diasnal or basically the tradition of Zarathustra,
Speaker 2: which is type of an Indo Iranian kind of like
Speaker 2: after the Indo Iranian split into the land of Iran
Speaker 2: and Uh and India. So the way that that Gothas
Speaker 2: which is the is related to Zarathustra, defines Zarathustra. It
Speaker 2: defines Zarathustra as a zota, which is a fully officiated
Speaker 2: priest of his time and as like or zotra. This
Speaker 2: this word which is an ancient old eveston ward, it
Speaker 2: actually means offering. So the priest or like when as
Speaker 2: a fully ordained priest, when they wanted to have this
Speaker 2: exchange like this libation or offering, the offering was done
Speaker 2: to the source of of the elements like that contribute
Speaker 2: to our vital forces and life. So one part of
Speaker 2: the zout zota was participating in this ceremony called the Asna.
Speaker 2: And in Yasna they are having these offerings to the
Speaker 2: to fire, to water, to other elements.
Speaker 8: It's more like.
Speaker 2: Elements that contribute to return of the vital forces that
Speaker 2: we have used as human and then we have to
Speaker 2: give an offering to refiel these sources that being used.
Speaker 2: So in UH, the offering to fire. So what they
Speaker 2: do is that the offering to fire in Zoastrianism is
Speaker 2: related to blood sacrifice, and what they do is that
Speaker 2: the priests bring a piece of uh kind of like
Speaker 2: you fuel and then an oil of a fresh sacrifice
Speaker 2: and then offer it to fire for the fire force
Speaker 2: no to continue and perpetually like serve human. And when
Speaker 2: they want to do the offering to water, the offering
Speaker 2: to water actually comes from sacrificing this ancient plant which
Speaker 2: actually is known as equivalent of soma, which is Homer
Speaker 2: that they are actually pressing that like that's pressing is
Speaker 2: counted as an act of sacrifice of this plant that
Speaker 2: carries wisdom, and then they mix it with another plant
Speaker 2: and then they put milk on it, and then a
Speaker 2: part of it is actually being taken, which is a
Speaker 2: psychoactive compound is being taken by the priest like the
Speaker 2: pully ordered priest, and the other part is actually being
Speaker 2: given back to the waters. That they call it aubonne
Speaker 2: for the return of the vital forces to waters. So
Speaker 2: in that sense, they see sacrifice as an exchange between
Speaker 2: the human order more I think in a primordial term,
Speaker 2: which is more like connected to what is more aligned
Speaker 2: to the unconscious side of our consciousness, and then it's
Speaker 2: like an exchange with a higher order. For the cosmic
Speaker 2: it's basically with the cosmos for an exchange that actually
Speaker 2: put everything on order. And if you thermodynamically look into it,
Speaker 2: like the order is aligned with anything that lowers entropy
Speaker 2: and the disorder or chaos with the higher entropy. And
Speaker 2: I think this is the distinction that actually comes to
Speaker 2: the duality of Zarathustra, that he has distinction for how
Speaker 2: to contribute to something that actually brings back order in
Speaker 2: a cosmological way and then what actually brings disorderliness or
Speaker 2: chaos on the other side, which in Zarathustra's concept, I
Speaker 2: think this is more like a psycho spiritual framework that's
Speaker 2: partly related to spirituality too, which order is actually what
Speaker 2: has to because order actually has to be a hurrik,
Speaker 2: which is something that actually comes from goodness. And then
Speaker 2: on the other side there's divas in in zo Astronism
Speaker 2: or even in Hinduism that there are kind of like
Speaker 2: the negative gods or the bad gods. So the distinction
Speaker 2: is actually between the two because you can sacrifice to
Speaker 2: any of them, so to the goodness or to the
Speaker 2: other side. So my work has been mostly on Homa
Speaker 2: and the ceremony of Homa, but the connection of sacrifice
Speaker 2: in Homa ceremony in they.
Speaker 8: Call it.
Speaker 2: Absorb which is the offering as related to the waters,
Speaker 2: and also to attaches or adzor which is the offering
Speaker 2: of animal, which is offered to the fires. So to me,
Speaker 2: it's more like the sacrifice is an exchange between human
Speaker 2: order and cosmological order for bringing us more into like
Speaker 2: what takes distance from chaos and into the order.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Shwan.
Speaker 4: That's very similar to the concept in Greece of making
Speaker 4: sacrifice to the gods and that sacrifices. You're sharing a
Speaker 4: meal with the gods because you eat part of the
Speaker 4: sacrifice or the group part of the sacrifice, and what
Speaker 4: remains is burnt and that smoke travels up to heaven
Speaker 4: and nourishes the gods.
Speaker 5: So that's very interesting. Thank you so much, Siri.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I really love that idea of this sacrifice being
Speaker 9: a function of rebalancing and reordering. Several people have touched
Speaker 9: on this idea of sacrifice being part of Yeah, first,
Speaker 9: like a kind of an individual experience, but there is
Speaker 9: something very important about the collective experience of sacrifice and
Speaker 9: what it does for the collective. Like, so there are
Speaker 9: some kind of traditions that I think we can look
Speaker 9: at in relation to that. And I also wanted to
Speaker 9: take it back to the question that you asked some
Speaker 9: time ago, Sarah, when you talked about you can feel
Speaker 9: that something is going to be sacrificed and you wonder
Speaker 9: what it's going to be. Right, something is definitely changing
Speaker 9: in the world around us, some kind of something, some
Speaker 9: rebalancing is happening. I mean, you can really definitely see
Speaker 9: that if you don't only have to open the news
Speaker 9: to understand that something is going to happen. If something
Speaker 9: is being sacrificed and something is kind of like on
Speaker 9: the on the offering table in order to rebalance and
Speaker 9: what that's going to be, I'm not entirely sure, but
Speaker 9: that the shift is definitely there. And I also think
Speaker 9: that I just want to ask the question to the group, like,
Speaker 9: how do you guys see this move from from the
Speaker 9: individual expense of ritual practice and sacrifice within your own
Speaker 9: sphere and like and this more kind of collective, what's
Speaker 9: happening in humanity, what's happening in like your country, the
Speaker 9: place where you're at, like or in the larger kind
Speaker 9: of global community in terms of how this functions not
Speaker 9: necessarily through our participation, but just as a fort just
Speaker 9: as a force of of of the cosmos, right, it
Speaker 9: demands its own sacrifices, like when things go out of wack,
Speaker 9: you kind of it will claim something the same as
Speaker 9: a as a as a pack of gazelles will hunt
Speaker 9: a zebra, and the minute, the minute the zebras is
Speaker 9: felled and eaten, all the others ever stopped running because
Speaker 9: now that the sacrifice has been made and that they
Speaker 9: can come back to order. And so I wonder if
Speaker 9: anyone has any thought about this duality of the individual
Speaker 9: versus the collective.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Siri, that I think what Shan
Speaker 4: and Siri touched upon there, this idea of the sacrifice
Speaker 4: as being something about establishing an order and a communication
Speaker 4: between the divine and the earthly realms is super interesting
Speaker 4: and makes me think also of the principle of my
Speaker 4: art in ancient Egypt and how the heart is offered up,
Speaker 4: and if the heart isn't light and balanced, the person
Speaker 4: will be eaten by amit, the you know, this kind
Speaker 4: of chaotic hybrid force. And I think that that's what
Speaker 4: so much magic is about, is about working out the
Speaker 4: language of nature, the pattern of nature, so that you
Speaker 4: can understand the order and read it.
Speaker 5: So I find that really interesting idea.
Speaker 15: Nick, Yeah, thank you. I really I didn't have an answer.
Speaker 15: Oh I thought you did that. Sorry, so I thought
Speaker 15: you were in control of that. My bad. I really
Speaker 15: didn't have an answer to that question. I didn't want
Speaker 15: to raise my hand to say something else, so I
Speaker 15: feel bad. I mean, I could get my opinion, but
Speaker 15: there was something else I even wanted to kind of
Speaker 15: bring up, because I do think it's I do think it.
Speaker 15: Maybe it's something that we've danced around, or maybe in
Speaker 15: my head that's what I'm doing. But you know, we're
Speaker 15: talking about sacrifice, and I think there's many levels of that,
Speaker 15: like even like I and other people who are saying with,
Speaker 15: you know, giving up certain things, you know, time, money,
Speaker 15: bad habits, certain behaviors, frames of ways of thinking. But
Speaker 15: you know, we kind of mentioned something about a great
Speaker 15: sacrifice or the ultimate sacrifice, and not too I do
Speaker 15: take it in a dark area or to try to
Speaker 15: sound edgy, But due to my own experiences and things
Speaker 15: that I've looked into myself and research, I do wonder
Speaker 15: and I wanted to ask other people's opinion if part
Speaker 15: of sometimes sacrifice literally would be the blood and flesh
Speaker 15: of your own body, Like if you separating your soul
Speaker 15: from your body the ultimate sacrifice, because I am leaving
Speaker 15: everything else that I am in love with and attached
Speaker 15: to in this world gone, you know, That's I just
Speaker 15: wonder sometimes if that is something that is actually maybe
Speaker 15: possibly directed to or pointed at in the esoteric or
Speaker 15: the occult, is actually like you know, we're talking about
Speaker 15: you know, astral stuff before OBEs. You look at shamanism,
Speaker 15: they're pushing themselves to the edge of death NDEs. Some
Speaker 15: people's stories with NDEs could sound very close people's magical experiences.
Speaker 15: So is there you know, this is the death and
Speaker 15: the rebirth actually literal? Is that the ultimate sacrifice that
Speaker 15: some people may make to have an experience other people's don't.
Speaker 15: I was just wondering if the other people.
Speaker 4: That's pretty good, Pascal, Maybe this is a good place
Speaker 4: to bring you into the conversation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 16: Yeah, I don't know, it's just been so fascinating thing
Speaker 16: to listening to everybody, because I had an original intention
Speaker 16: of going off on one about kind of like I
Speaker 16: did with at the end there with the one about
Speaker 16: my most recent fixation on euthology and stuff, which definitely
Speaker 16: has its place here, but I don't want to derail things.
Speaker 16: But maybe near the end, if we get into weird
Speaker 16: the territory, then maybe. But so, I guess one thing
Speaker 16: I've been thinking before, and touch John especially by showing
Speaker 16: what he said absolutely loved and then and then what
Speaker 16: Nick kind of mentioned with the near death thing. I
Speaker 16: don't know exactly how to pass it, but but yeah,
Speaker 16: I mean, so going back to like the etymology of sacrifices,
Speaker 16: there's there's it's to make sacred, and this idea of
Speaker 16: a sacrifice of them giving something up that is most
Speaker 16: valuable to the beyond or something beyond just your yourself,
Speaker 16: your your your own ego, and thereby making making it sacred.
Speaker 16: And and obviously we've spoken a great deal about self
Speaker 16: sacrifice and how that can lead to service, and even
Speaker 16: you know, body sat for heard it and so so
Speaker 16: with that, like around that kind of the self sacrifice
Speaker 16: and the death of yourself and ego death, I mean,
Speaker 16: obviously that's that's something which will be inherited. Two different
Speaker 16: types of these kind of esoteric practices which I've been
Speaker 16: talking about, but especially kind like an extremists like a
Speaker 16: psychedelic experience, and obviously there you know, they that that
Speaker 16: of itself may have a party playing these magical practices
Speaker 16: ancient Greek or other mystery cults, et cetera, or shamanic
Speaker 16: kind of austerities you know, where that can happen in
Speaker 16: very dramatic ways, or the near death experience as as
Speaker 16: Nick brought up, which is you know, which is more
Speaker 16: of a kind of explicit death yet near death. So yeah,
Speaker 16: but you're but so in terms of how that then
Speaker 16: links to the making of it's sacred, I mean, you know,
Speaker 16: your very self, your very sense of your own extantness
Speaker 16: in this reality is being friend or or you're willing
Speaker 16: for it to be dissolved, which is that then I
Speaker 16: think allowing for just on a kind of neural level,
Speaker 16: if we were to mediate it that way and not
Speaker 16: any reduction this way, But there is a dissolution of
Speaker 16: like your your the self, the self model and your
Speaker 16: world model, and through that there can be you know,
Speaker 16: one can encounter the kind of is the kind of
Speaker 16: ground of reality, kind of the noetic revelatory experience and
Speaker 16: there or just this this ultimate connection to to the
Speaker 16: universal ward a reappraising of it as as ultimately sacred.
Speaker 16: So it's a it's a sacralization process where you, you know,
Speaker 16: one of the original attributes of the mystical experience, you know,
Speaker 16: is considered this this touching of something which is holy.
Speaker 16: But ultimately you're you're just your your discovering yourself and
Speaker 16: the world that has something intrinsically holy. And again on
Speaker 16: the kind of neuroscience thing which Chewing was saying, but
Speaker 16: not specifically in terms of your suces, but about you're
Speaker 16: talking about from more engineering perspective, but it remind him
Speaker 16: and of course disorder and orders he was talking about.
Speaker 3: It reminded me of.
Speaker 16: A systems theory approach which was actually applied by somebody
Speaker 16: looking into near death experiences, and this idea that in
Speaker 16: near death experiences how the nerves central nervous system can
Speaker 16: be kind of reconfigured, that there's a kind of a
Speaker 16: release process happening. So he was more referring to engineering
Speaker 16: and systems theory. So there's a release of of consciousness,
Speaker 16: but he was relating that parapsychologically to like cite this
Speaker 16: like principle, so which can be this mediator of precognition
Speaker 16: or telepicta whatever whatever it is, or or being able
Speaker 16: to go to some other space. And so yeah, I
Speaker 16: mean in that sense, it's not just this kind of
Speaker 16: ritual sacrifices may not necessarily just be thought of as
Speaker 16: like a symbolic thing, but quite a literally magical thing.
Speaker 16: But the neuroscientific aspect of that, the way that I
Speaker 16: would see it as opposed to his kind of talking
Speaker 16: about some redistribution of of PSI per se. Linking to
Speaker 16: what Chavin was saying is is that in li psychedelic neuroscience,
Speaker 16: for instance, which will be very mapping onto similar processes
Speaker 16: where there are these self networks like the default mode
Speaker 16: network for instance, or other higher order networks are being dismantled,
Speaker 16: you have technically you have this release of so called
Speaker 16: free energy. And so that's that's energy which isn't bound
Speaker 16: up to do something like life conducive. It's so it's
Speaker 16: being liberated because of course in this in this peak
Speaker 16: psychedelic state, you know, you're not imminently here, your brain
Speaker 16: isn't wide any longer in order to do whatever it
Speaker 16: needs to be doing.
Speaker 1: It's it's being.
Speaker 16: Sacrificed for this kind of higher, higher function. And in
Speaker 16: the release of that free energy you have entropy. You know,
Speaker 16: your brain is in this much more chaotic state and
Speaker 16: you have this higher, higher entropy state chaos in the system,
Speaker 16: which again can kind of sort of linked to kind
Speaker 16: of chaos magic kind of concept. And yeah, and so
Speaker 16: obviously what you're saying about disorder and order. So in
Speaker 16: this whole process, you're having greater disorder in the in.
Speaker 5: The central nervous system.
Speaker 16: But then ultimately it that it does act as a
Speaker 16: recalibrating event because you then APPLDT me you have greater
Speaker 16: greater order both in your psyche and how that then
Speaker 16: reflects in your world at large as you're interfacing with
Speaker 16: it afterward. And I think lastly, I just say that
Speaker 16: the thing that showing said about the good and bad,
Speaker 16: I thought it was super interesting about the Davis is
Speaker 16: being like this kind of image of a negative god
Speaker 16: to whom you may sacrifice something. So with sacrifice, you
Speaker 16: can do it either for the good or for ill
Speaker 16: in a way, but it doesn't need to be as
Speaker 16: kind of literal explicit as that. But there's a whole
Speaker 16: set and setting thing with psychedelia, for instance, that there
Speaker 16: will be a yeah, it may implicitly end up as
Speaker 16: being something good or good or bad in a way
Speaker 16: in terms of how the sacrifice, how the ego sacrifice,
Speaker 16: how the the flow of consciousness as it were, will
Speaker 16: be redistributed, and for better or worse, for you offer
Speaker 16: for others.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Pascal.
Speaker 4: That makes me think a lot about theogy and this
Speaker 4: idea of I guess making a kind of sacrifice off
Speaker 4: the body, like you say, and as our chist has
Speaker 4: touched upon with bhutto this idea of making yourself a
Speaker 4: vessel or expelling ordinary consciousness so that you're in a
Speaker 4: state to receive things.
Speaker 15: Just a little bit after you've done.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, so that was great, Nick, Sorry,
Speaker 5: go on here.
Speaker 15: Mentioning the nervous system, even looking at that is even
Speaker 15: another reason why even asked my prior question, because I've
Speaker 15: even been studying the way the nervous system acts on
Speaker 15: the you know, the herbs that we use in sacred architecture,
Speaker 15: A lot of them will start to change your vegas, nerve,
Speaker 15: your sympathetic you're lymphatic, to where we'll start to sometimes
Speaker 15: focus you like he was, I think he was kind
Speaker 15: of getting at getting you in a state of mind.
Speaker 15: But a lot of them also all start to slow
Speaker 15: your system down. And it's just to me, it seems
Speaker 15: a little bit coincidental that there's things being used that
Speaker 15: is literally starting to slow your system down, and I
Speaker 15: don't think a lot of people realize it, Like the
Speaker 15: reverberation and a lot of sacred architecture that I'm recently
Speaker 15: covering and putting out soon, the way the STI, the
Speaker 15: decay time, all these things. When you'll make a tone,
Speaker 15: it will last eleven seconds, and between that and everything
Speaker 15: else you're saying, the architecture now it's like starting to
Speaker 15: actually affect your nervous system and we'll start to put
Speaker 15: you in certain states. And it's just very weird to
Speaker 15: me that it seems like a lot of these things
Speaker 15: do aid with focus and slowing your system down. So
Speaker 15: even what he said with that, it is just I
Speaker 15: wanted to bring up another reason why brought up such
Speaker 15: maybe a wild idea is because of you looking at
Speaker 15: that stuff as well.
Speaker 5: Thank you Nick.
Speaker 4: It also makes me think, what about if those chaotic
Speaker 4: states you're talking about are just part of a higher
Speaker 4: cosmic order that we can't recognize the pattern of. So
Speaker 4: for a moment, you're in that kind of cosmic wavelength,
Speaker 4: and that has the ability to recalibrate you as an individual.
Speaker 5: Because I guess the process of.
Speaker 4: Being born and developing an ego in the first place
Speaker 4: is a calibrating process. We're coming from the great cosmic everything.
Speaker 4: We're coming from the all. We have to calibrate to
Speaker 4: our place on Earth and our body and our other
Speaker 4: important relationships so that we identify ourself. But in those
Speaker 4: moments where we're outside of self, we are perhaps returning
Speaker 4: to that kind of great all, or that great chaos,
Speaker 4: And then when we return to self, we have this
Speaker 4: sort of renewed thing I'm reminded of. I think I
Speaker 4: might have mentioned it in the last session, my friend
Speaker 4: Marie and Marigu telling me about someone who went into
Speaker 4: the Telesterion, who was one of the misty and took
Speaker 4: part in the mysteries of Alepsis, and how that idea
Speaker 4: of meeting the gods is a very real thing and
Speaker 4: seems to involve some sort of out of body experience,
Speaker 4: some sort of nd where you are obliterated as an
Speaker 4: individual and you become one with the goddess, with these
Speaker 4: divine essences. And it was talked about that he was
Speaker 4: blind when he went into the telesterion, and you talked
Speaker 4: about that recalibration, that sort of chaos to organization, that
Speaker 4: when he came out he could see, and who knows
Speaker 4: whether that's true, whether it really happened, whether it was
Speaker 4: a story, But the concept of that I think fits
Speaker 4: in with this idea of going into you know, Nick
Speaker 4: mentioned certain plants and the things that we eat or
Speaker 4: the things that we drink affecting our consciousness, and I
Speaker 4: think maybe what we you know, you are what you eat,
Speaker 4: you are what you drink. If you take certain drugs,
Speaker 4: then the spirit, the essence of these substances are affecting
Speaker 4: your psychology. Because we're less we're less autonomous than we
Speaker 4: think we are. Really we're like colonies of bacteria. There
Speaker 4: are so many things that affect our consciousness. We could
Speaker 4: have toxoplasmagondhi for example, which I think i've probably just
Speaker 4: got by spending so much time in Istanbul because now
Speaker 4: I love cats and all these things that affect our
Speaker 4: consciousness and our idea of our personality.
Speaker 5: Nick, is that are you satisfied?
Speaker 15: Yeah, I mean it wasn't something I expected too many
Speaker 15: people to jump on anyway.
Speaker 2: You Shuan, Yeah, I just wanted to refer back to
Speaker 2: next question about the sacrifice of your body for something.
Speaker 2: It's actually a very interesting case to study that is
Speaker 2: happening at the moment. I'm from Iran and this kind
Speaker 2: of like war between the United States and Israel and
Speaker 2: Iran and the mentality of Shia with martyrdom. The fact
Speaker 2: that they basically this Islamic Iranian government, they know that
Speaker 2: literally they are not gonna kind of like be bitten
Speaker 2: or be defeated. They're not gonna win the war and
Speaker 2: not be defeated. But at the same time, they haven't
Speaker 2: been surrendered. So the fact that they know that every
Speaker 2: one of them would be killed at the end of
Speaker 2: this like what has happened, you know, from February twenty eighth,
Speaker 2: you know, with the Supreme Leader I was actually being
Speaker 2: attacked and died, and and the narrative that's being circulated
Speaker 2: as the myth between and the sham mentality that these
Speaker 2: are martyrs, that these are sacrifices for again a change
Speaker 2: of order that's going to happen. And I think in
Speaker 2: the Sham mentality what's happening is that they say that,
Speaker 2: like the chaos gets to a point and there should
Speaker 2: be so many martyrdoms and you know, sacrifice, like human
Speaker 2: sacrifice for the higher goal that that the Messiah come
Speaker 2: or not the Mahdi mode you know comes, you know,
Speaker 2: to get the like disorder back to order. And I
Speaker 2: think that, like working with psychedelics, my understanding is that
Speaker 2: this idea of sacrificing the body doesn't necessarily need to happen,
Speaker 2: like you don't need to destroy your biology to like
Speaker 2: from a cosmological point of view, to really induce that
Speaker 2: exchange with the higher cosmic order. I think that the self,
Speaker 2: the ego, death, or anything that I think from my experience,
Speaker 2: anything that contributes to a way of getting into a
Speaker 2: higher state while we can keep the intention of having
Speaker 2: the connection to that higher state. I think that's the
Speaker 2: phenomenology of psychedelic or onerogenic experiences that as long as
Speaker 2: you can get to that level of exchange between consciousness
Speaker 2: and unconscious which is kind of like the work of
Speaker 2: magic as well. And then you can keep that connection
Speaker 2: to the higher consciousness that you're processing with intention and
Speaker 2: in the moment. So this is kind of like any
Speaker 2: practice of non duality that you can get to that
Speaker 2: level of sacrifice, you know, through intention and make that
Speaker 2: exchange happen, you know, with the higher order. So I
Speaker 2: think my understanding is that what actually contributes to an exchange,
Speaker 2: you know, in respect in return for the order in
Speaker 2: the in the cosmos to happen, is our attention when
Speaker 2: we can amplify it, not to higher order, you know,
Speaker 2: that's what happening again with the psychedelic or energenic experiences.
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, that's the the
Speaker 2: intention and attention that you're putting, you know, as an
Speaker 2: exchange with the uh uh, with the higher order. Not
Speaker 2: that comes through you know. Let's say, what what's called
Speaker 2: sacri sacrifice of the ego or sacrifice of the body.
Speaker 4: Thank you showing really good points, really interesting, and I
Speaker 4: just wanted to triangulate because I can see Brandon's got
Speaker 4: his hand up there with Brandon and our chistis because
Speaker 4: our kist is mentioned, and Brandon mentioned this idea of
Speaker 4: attention and this idea of intentionality and our kiss diis
Speaker 4: mentioned about how a big part of it is intentionally
Speaker 4: giving your attention to something rather than Brandon mentioned, you're
Speaker 4: just pouring your attention into this black mirror, and you're
Speaker 4: not intentionally or consciously entering into a covenant with the
Speaker 4: divine by doing that. But when you're intentionally giving your attention,
Speaker 4: it does feel like a completely different thing. Because, you know,
Speaker 4: one thing I really noticed working in schools is I
Speaker 4: was talking to a friend earlier about how, you know,
Speaker 4: we're probably the last generation that grew up without the Internet,
Speaker 4: without these black mirrors at our disposal, and I developed
Speaker 4: in that culture of never having anything like that, of
Speaker 4: being in the world without these tools for navigation, without
Speaker 4: these tools for constant communication, And now there are all
Speaker 4: these kind of stuff showing that children feel terror when
Speaker 4: they're split from their phones. It's almost like having a
Speaker 4: damon cut away from them. They're actually scared to be
Speaker 4: in the world without this tool for communication that you know,
Speaker 4: and we know that people that run these companies don't
Speaker 4: let their kids go on them. So I wonder if
Speaker 4: Brandon and our kisses. We could talk about that a
Speaker 4: little bit.
Speaker 13: Just immediately to respond to that. It's almost like we're
Speaker 13: if you don't intentionally give your attention to this like
Speaker 13: sacrificial process. Let's say we're also entering into a kind
Speaker 13: of transhumanism, because then the child is accidentally becoming the
Speaker 13: transhuman that is like already syncd up with technology, and
Speaker 13: even if it's not inside their body yet yet, it
Speaker 13: will be soon. It's they're still so symbiolartically connected with
Speaker 13: the smartphone or whatever, the computer, the tablet, and so
Speaker 13: these transformations are happening anyway without any sort of conscious,
Speaker 13: meaningful engagement with it. This reciprocity with the cosmos, with
Speaker 13: the living beings of the cosmos, with the higher spirits,
Speaker 13: with the like technology this is a smartphones things just
Speaker 13: completely flattened and reduce your humanity. It's like something I
Speaker 13: see that, like what's happening is that we are becoming
Speaker 13: something else, but that we're not necessarily many of us
Speaker 13: in control or even trying to consciously become something else.
Speaker 13: Maybe as like esotericists or magicians of various types, we
Speaker 13: are more implicated in that process. But when I see
Speaker 13: ordinary people just being changed by their engagement with technology
Speaker 13: into like the next iteration, I like getting stupid, getting
Speaker 13: less able to hold a thought, or less vocabulary. Everything
Speaker 13: diminishes because we become so dependent on it. I think
Speaker 13: that's like, that's kind of what I was one of
Speaker 13: the things I was thinking about in terms of becoming
Speaker 13: part of a greater sacrifice that we're not actually intentionally
Speaker 13: participating in, but we are, you know, being sacrificed for
Speaker 13: for the next like the tech bros Wants us to
Speaker 13: become the next thing.
Speaker 4: I was listening to something yesterday online, a big podcast.
Speaker 5: It was really good. I think.
Speaker 4: Robert Forte shared it, and it was about how it's
Speaker 4: actually written into the plans for a lot of these platforms,
Speaker 4: that social media actually does start to change our biology,
Speaker 4: our physical form, and not even our you know, mental capabilities.
Speaker 4: But it certainly is having an impact there. Where you
Speaker 4: think about children now are teached, are teached, are being
Speaker 4: taught how to do coding and stuff in school rather
Speaker 4: than learn about humanities, learn about culture, learn about beauty,
Speaker 4: learn about how to have good relationships. I think that
Speaker 4: it's really important to look at what children are being
Speaker 4: taught in school, because that's where the agenda is first
Speaker 4: sort of sown into what kind of people the powers
Speaker 4: that the want to see in the world, which are
Speaker 4: just empty consumers who can be easily controlled and manipulated
Speaker 4: with the amazing skills that advertising and politics and all
Speaker 4: this kind of have at their disposal these days.
Speaker 13: Yeah, I just wanted to add as well that it's
Speaker 13: this full light as well, because it's literally disrupting our
Speaker 13: circadian rhythms and our creations with the wider cosmos. So
Speaker 13: our penal gland is all the time like in concert
Speaker 13: with the entire you know, cosmos, and not just sunlight,
Speaker 13: but all the light, and it's telling us and giving
Speaker 13: our body signals about how to respond and how to
Speaker 13: be in the world. And this is just automatic, unconscious,
Speaker 13: this is what the body does. But as soon as
Speaker 13: you're like bringing this artificial light and all this hyper
Speaker 13: stimulation into like your face, is completely disrupting our relationship
Speaker 13: with the world, with the cosmos, with all beings. And
Speaker 13: I think that's that's where I see the danger of
Speaker 13: this sort of like unwittingly being sacrificed for other people's
Speaker 13: purposes and darker agendas. And yeah, so we have to
Speaker 13: sort of consciously sort of step back from this to
Speaker 13: not participate in that. And again, I just don't know
Speaker 13: how how you stop other people, you know, plunging into it.
Speaker 13: You can't, but you have to be like that point
Speaker 13: of calm.
Speaker 4: Well, I think I'm so glad you brought that up,
Speaker 4: because I wrote a book about the history and culture
Speaker 4: of dreaming, and I think the first thing to be
Speaker 4: sacrificed is dreams, because circadian rhythms are so disrupted by
Speaker 4: this false light, and dreams are like self illuminated.
Speaker 5: Landscapes.
Speaker 4: So if I find in my own work and in
Speaker 4: talking to other people about dreams, that dreams are diminishing,
Speaker 4: and that has been an actual evolution of the human being,
Speaker 4: that dreams have diminished as a result of our dependence
Speaker 4: upon technology. And it's taken years to see how this
Speaker 4: has happened. But our attachment to our phones and our
Speaker 4: attachment to this fake like and this inability to enter
Speaker 4: into the circadian cycles that we are naturally wired to
Speaker 4: is already showed is that this plan is working.
Speaker 5: Thanks with this, Brandon, Yeah, and nice.
Speaker 12: You guys hit on so many key things there, and
Speaker 12: I think it's so important that we all understand this
Speaker 12: where we're coming from, because we can be moments of
Speaker 12: light for a world that has fallen. Right, we are
Speaker 12: in Malcouth, we are in the Kingdom, which means we
Speaker 12: connect ourselves to the klipthotic world the husks, and to
Speaker 12: get it to more to the dystopian science fiction terminology,
Speaker 12: we are laiden amongst non playable characters. And so it's like,
Speaker 12: while we're walking in the world, there are NPCs everywhere,
Speaker 12: which goes to the term that Elkistis was talking about
Speaker 12: with the transhumanist agenda, that we're completely laden in ourselves upon,
Speaker 12: with the elite, parasitic techno oligarchs that I like to
Speaker 12: dean being the dark sorcerers who we are kind of
Speaker 12: up against in this cosmic Manichean kind of drama that
Speaker 12: is unfolding at all times. And so kind of what
Speaker 12: you're saying, Sarah in your work as well is how
Speaker 12: important dreams are and why that is is because of
Speaker 12: that is what connects us to the higher realms. We
Speaker 12: must cross the thirty second path from Malcouth into Ysad,
Speaker 12: into the Moon, into the phantasmagoric imaginal realms. And I
Speaker 12: think what's so important is that the intentional mind, our
Speaker 12: intentionalities towards the phenomenological experience that we're trying to bring back,
Speaker 12: instead of being separated. So what happened was in the
Speaker 12: Enlightenment period with Cartesianism, is that they separated body and mind.
Speaker 12: And is fantastic as that was, because we have the
Speaker 12: whole technological revolution that we're in. What it also did
Speaker 12: was it then also separated everything that was the embodied experience.
Speaker 12: And so what I think is really important is that
Speaker 12: then what happened is that instead of sacrificing the lower desires,
Speaker 12: kind of like what Peter talks about in his work
Speaker 12: is that we, you know, we must sacrifice you know,
Speaker 12: or you know, maybe just nick the shoulder of the
Speaker 12: bowl instead of completely sacrificing the bull. But we must
Speaker 12: have an understanding that we we sit upon the lower
Speaker 12: desires because we need those to run the robot that
Speaker 12: goes upon and works and feeds and has a family
Speaker 12: and does these things. But through the great work, we
Speaker 12: are ascending or transcending the normal, profane world to the
Speaker 12: higher sacred world. Going back to what sacrifice you know
Speaker 12: seems to mean with the sacrificium of the Latin terminology,
Speaker 12: and so it's like the phones and the cosmic drama
Speaker 12: that's unfolding in the world. This can be seen as
Speaker 12: the grand sacrifice of all of our intention and awareness
Speaker 12: and everything that's going on. And it could also be
Speaker 12: seen because I think what's so important is what I
Speaker 12: learned from Peter is that what we're trying to do
Speaker 12: is we're trying to get They're trying to the dark sources,
Speaker 12: are trying to stick us within the grand dualist dualism,
Speaker 12: which is then what we're trying to merge back together
Speaker 12: with the embodied phenomenological experience. So we're not dark, you know,
Speaker 12: being taken over by dark sorcerers, and so we can
Speaker 12: actually have a spirit and a soul instead of being
Speaker 12: a transhumanist NPC type of character.
Speaker 8: And what is it that does that well?
Speaker 12: I really like it when Alkesty talks about her bhuto, right,
Speaker 12: it's that grand cosmic fire dance, that embodied experience where
Speaker 12: in my own practice, I'm you know, au I like
Speaker 12: kung fu, right, So I'm a martial artist, and so
Speaker 12: I've had to sacrifice a lot and bring to the
Speaker 12: fire all of my lower drives, lower desires than the
Speaker 12: part of me that can't just do a horse stance
Speaker 12: for twenty minutes. And so it's like, what does that mean? Well,
Speaker 12: I must root myself into the earth, while like in
Speaker 12: my Taichi practice, lift my my bai hua, lift my
Speaker 12: higher mind into the heavens. Thus, in the Daoist terminology,
Speaker 12: I become the center of the heaven and the earth.
Speaker 12: And I think with these types of conversations and with
Speaker 12: everyone doing their grand work and retrying to connect us
Speaker 12: to the dream realm, we can bring people from the
Speaker 12: unintentional unaware, you know, take away the phones because you're
Speaker 12: completely right. And what I think we forget is that
Speaker 12: the blue light is telling us at all times that
Speaker 12: it's noon out. Not only is it doing that, it
Speaker 12: brings us to the idea that mk ultra is real,
Speaker 12: you know, as in is real right.
Speaker 8: As the idea is that one.
Speaker 12: What's going on is it's like it's they use the
Speaker 12: studies about Las Vegas, where in Las Vegas they use
Speaker 12: blue light everywhere because what it does is it sticks
Speaker 12: people into their lymphatic system and drives high levels of cortisol,
Speaker 12: thus giving you dopamine and serotonin dumps. And as that's happening,
Speaker 12: you are easier to control, and if you are easier
Speaker 12: to control you then don't have a spirit or soul
Speaker 12: in your body guiding you to the highest.
Speaker 8: Realms, but bringing you into the lowest.
Speaker 12: Thus you become like Odysseus entering into the lotus eaters.
Speaker 12: You become somebody who is just trying to get that
Speaker 12: continual dopamine fix instead of doing the mystical practices of
Speaker 12: yoga and magic, which I think you kind of need
Speaker 12: both to be able to be your hero on the journey.
Speaker 12: So you can not become a sacrifice for the great
Speaker 12: wars as we learn from orwell war as peace. The
Speaker 12: wars will continue to go as long as everyone is
Speaker 12: not doing their own great work, and so I could
Speaker 12: continue to talk about that, but that's just one of
Speaker 12: those things that's really fascinating, is that in this transhumanist
Speaker 12: world which we're moving.
Speaker 8: Into, it's not going away.
Speaker 12: And so it's one of those things where we have
Speaker 12: to learn the lingo and the modern myths of our
Speaker 12: age so we can talk to everybody around us as
Speaker 12: we integrate the ancient world views of magic, myth and
Speaker 12: meaning and try to become re embodied figures where we're
Speaker 12: not being controlled by the blue light in our lower drives.
Speaker 12: And so that's kind of how we, I think, bring
Speaker 12: the intentional experience back into the conscious world.
Speaker 5: Right, that's great. Brandon thinks.
Speaker 4: That I just mentioned the interview that I saw yesterday
Speaker 4: that was about this idea of the tech bros including
Speaker 4: this in that plan, that they're actually changing our biology
Speaker 4: so we are more easy to control. It was by
Speaker 4: a guy called James Corbett, and he ended it on
Speaker 4: a very positive note I thought, which was I definitely
Speaker 4: recommend watching it. I can share the link with anyone
Speaker 4: who's interested. But he just talks about what they want
Speaker 4: is your humanity, and if you don't give it to them,
Speaker 4: they have no power. So the most important thing we
Speaker 4: can do is retain our humanity. And one thing I
Speaker 4: noticed because I spend a lot of time in Istanbor.
Speaker 4: You know, I've lived part time in Greece and in
Speaker 4: istan Bor in particular, but everywhere I think, I'm noticing
Speaker 4: people being nicer to each other.
Speaker 5: Because, like you say, the veil is falling.
Speaker 4: We are seeing that there's a it's syop nested within SIOP,
Speaker 4: nested within siop. And actually it's all becoming quite clear
Speaker 4: now to a lot of people more than the sort
Speaker 4: of select little group of conspiracy theorists. And when the
Speaker 4: veil falls, when we have this kind of apocalypsis, I
Speaker 4: think it's going to bring about a renaissance of humanity,
Speaker 4: and that we'll be kinder and nicer to each other
Speaker 4: and look each other in the eye and hanging out
Speaker 4: in person and singing a king art is going to
Speaker 4: be like a new exciting novel, fun thing to do
Speaker 4: that everyone wants to do, and everyone's like, oh my god,
Speaker 4: have you heard of making music properly?
Speaker 5: Of you heard of drawing? Is great? So so yeah,
Speaker 5: thank you very much, Brandon Peter.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is completely tangential. But perhaps to next point
Speaker 6: about the use of sound, I'll just give you a
Speaker 6: quick example. I I joined in. I don't know quite
Speaker 6: how to describe it. An event with a singer. Tom
Speaker 6: Kenyon has this multi octave voice, and during the course
Speaker 6: of this this wonderful ethereal singing that he does on
Speaker 6: the stage, I saw quite distinctly the formation of half
Speaker 6: a dozen or so very tall columns of light. Okay,
Speaker 6: and after a while they kind of drifted off the
Speaker 6: apron and up through the audience and disappeared so bizarre event.
Speaker 6: But at the end of this seance, was it, I
Speaker 6: don't know quite what. Somebody in the audience asked him,
Speaker 6: you know these hathors that you're talking about, when they manifest,
Speaker 6: how do they look? And he said, well, the tall
Speaker 6: columns of light, which is exactly what I saw over there.
Speaker 6: But the curious thing now is that nobody I was
Speaker 6: with saw them, okay, And that led me to ask
Speaker 6: the questions why should higher order or higher dimensional beings
Speaker 6: make their presence known to Sam and not to others?
Speaker 9: Okay?
Speaker 6: So there's a question there that we we have to
Speaker 6: ask ourselves about our own orientation to reality. And so
Speaker 6: I'll leave it at that. But what I saw was
Speaker 6: clear and distinct and was verified by Tom Kenyon himself,
Speaker 6: and it has a consistent philosophy and account around these beings,
Speaker 6: which I'm not a party to. I mean, I haven't
Speaker 6: followed it up, but I always found it curious that
Speaker 6: they should have made themselves visible to myself and not
Speaker 6: to others. And I think there's something in there that
Speaker 6: we need to get to the bottom two And perhaps
Speaker 6: next week when we talk about entities, perhaps that that'll
Speaker 6: be part of that conversation.
Speaker 5: Right, Thank you, Peter, You're welcome.
Speaker 4: So we're getting we're getting to have you know, spent
Speaker 4: two hours on the call now, So does anyone have
Speaker 4: any little wrapping up thoughts I'd like to share myles.
Speaker 10: I wanted to just a JD. Is it does cosmology
Speaker 10: in austrology?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean I don't know much about astrology other
Speaker 10: than from the Yugo system point of view, according to
Speaker 10: Bibludesh Mishro or coming out of Calli Yugo, whether you
Speaker 10: use the Yoga Nanda and tree you textuar model, maybe
Speaker 10: maybe it happened a little earlier. But and then if
Speaker 10: you're using sidereal, we're coming out of pissin and heading
Speaker 10: into aquarium. So let's just say the at least two models,
Speaker 10: cosmological models are suggesting that we're in a death rebirth phase.
Speaker 10: So let's imagine that as above so below are archetypally
Speaker 10: inside each human consciousness or psyche. There is this push
Speaker 10: towards death and rebirth, whether we're conscious of it or not.
Speaker 10: And so everybody on the line has their own practice
Speaker 10: and in their own way is working with that archetype.
Speaker 10: I mean, working consciously with trying to voluntarily surrender something
Speaker 10: and break through into a more expansive or more compassionate
Speaker 10: or higher order. We've used the word order and chaos,
Speaker 10: We've used compassion and retraction, you know, whatever the dichotomy
Speaker 10: might be. But it seems to me that broadly speaking,
Speaker 10: you know, most of the planet is still very much asleep,
Speaker 10: and so then the impulse that is being activated because
Speaker 10: of the cosmological sea change may may cause people to
Speaker 10: have a death wish in the most rudinventtory way, just
Speaker 10: the most force way, most dense way. I'm thinking you
Speaker 10: use the word apocalypsis, and you know that's files or
Speaker 10: is a kind of apocalypsis, like just how rampant some
Speaker 10: of the most primitive evil seditious, sadistic, and how rife
Speaker 10: and widespread this kind of death wish and this sort
Speaker 10: of instinctual you know, death wish is. So you know,
Speaker 10: and I can't remember who it was it made. It
Speaker 10: might have been Nick, who was very much just put
Speaker 10: they put it out there. It seemed that at the
Speaker 10: time has kind of left field, like you know, making
Speaker 10: an actual sacrifice. Maybe maybe that's what's happening, is that
Speaker 10: there is an actual sacrifice happening in the in the world,
Speaker 10: but it's just so unconscious. And so there were a
Speaker 10: couple of examples of this, and one of them was
Speaker 10: in Iran with the sort of martyrdom as one example.
Speaker 10: The sacrifice of actual children in these sort of Epstein
Speaker 10: cults sort of is another. The more widespread one of
Speaker 10: sacrificing our kids. Attention to the devices is another. And
Speaker 10: this is in stark contrast to all these mystical traditions
Speaker 10: that are suggesting how to work with that impulse in
Speaker 10: a more symbolic way. So you have this juxtaposition between
Speaker 10: a symbolic processing voluntary death. You have all that impulse
Speaker 10: versus the one that is happening or being born out
Speaker 10: in the most unconscious and destructive way. So I wanted
Speaker 10: to just throw that out there to see if people
Speaker 10: have any thoughts about that, to kind of conclude or
Speaker 10: to wrap up.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Miles, anyone want to say anything to that, I.
Speaker 3: Was just gonna I will try to keep it brief.
Speaker 3: I think that in a lot of different ways of
Speaker 3: timing thing, and we don't necessarily require them to know
Speaker 3: that this odd times and something is very intense about
Speaker 3: what's going on right now, and it's weird. It's interesting
Speaker 3: because a lot of times, within the ways that could
Speaker 3: be interpreted within spiritual traditions that pay attention to time,
Speaker 3: is that it also is right for particular kinds of
Speaker 3: progress to occur. So it's like the darkest, weirdest moment
Speaker 3: is also the moment where and some use this as
Speaker 3: a justification for why tantent practice is so powerful now
Speaker 3: because it's the time where transformation of our attachments or
Speaker 3: the way that we engage with the material world, having
Speaker 3: strayed so far from it, it's important, you know, like
Speaker 3: a holy material if you will discovering these things now
Speaker 3: will have like the broadest and most powerful impact. And
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting because we circled around lots of
Speaker 3: different ideas, some which are why sacrifice would maybe be
Speaker 3: something that we're considering within our various works that we
Speaker 3: are doing. So like there was a lot of attention
Speaker 3: like Peter gave. Peter Gray gave the example of how
Speaker 3: aware he was whenever he was offering the wild Violet
Speaker 3: and the various ongoings that it's kind of wrapped up
Speaker 3: inside of. So I think for me, at least, like
Speaker 3: if there's a practice in which we're engaged. And it's
Speaker 3: why I would say it may seem like a cop out,
Speaker 3: but it's like, if we are engaged in either overt
Speaker 3: or subtle or symbolic or literal sacrifice, that there's something
Speaker 3: that's pushing us towards right relation, you know. So whatever
Speaker 3: that might mean for us, how we framed and orders
Speaker 3: or chaos and or higher realms, lower realms, whatever, you know,
Speaker 3: I think it's about putting things better into right relation.
Speaker 3: And it seemed like the other one is something I've
Speaker 3: had a conversation with some people here about is the
Speaker 3: way that our erotic our eros is really hijacked by
Speaker 3: a lot of the things that draw our attention these moments,
Speaker 3: you know, so be that like the media cycle, or
Speaker 3: our engagement with dating apps or whatever it might be,
Speaker 3: you know, gaming on your phone or whatever it could be.
Speaker 3: I do think this is a level to which we
Speaker 3: are being kind of forced into scenarios where we're sacrificing
Speaker 3: our eras over to something else where. It would be
Speaker 3: much better to put it in a place that I
Speaker 3: think cultivates right relation, like creative capacity and bringing forward
Speaker 3: something that is generative and reminds us of how we're
Speaker 3: you know, what is possible rather than being caught and
Speaker 3: all that. So, yeah, it was an interesting conversation. I
Speaker 3: was lovely to hear everybody starts and see where it
Speaker 3: all went.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. J D.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think as well about this idea of unintentionally
Speaker 4: giving your attention to something and consciously creating is very different.
Speaker 4: It's it does feel a bit like we're in a
Speaker 4: death cult right now. And share we mentioned this idea
Speaker 4: of martyrdom and this, you know, I talked recently about,
Speaker 4: you know, Steiner's idea of ari Man rising up against Lucifer,
Speaker 4: and there are these two extremes in the third way
Speaker 4: is the.
Speaker 5: Consciousness of Christ.
Speaker 4: And there should be some other third way found because
Speaker 4: it seems like amongst those who are happy to be martyred,
Speaker 4: who are so invested in this, in this idea of
Speaker 4: spirit and the afterlife is so appealing. And then on
Speaker 4: the other side you got tech bros who are utterly,
Speaker 4: utterly terrified of dying and are trying to live forever
Speaker 4: and are injecting fecal matter, and every single moment of
Speaker 4: their day is spent in some you know, breathing tube
Speaker 4: or taking a thousand supplements every morning, you know, like
Speaker 4: the terror of death and the complete desire to die
Speaker 4: are seemed to be like battling it out right.
Speaker 12: Now, I have a funny funny thing to say to that.
Speaker 12: My funny thing to say to that is, actually I
Speaker 12: have been aligo and I actually injected.
Speaker 8: I did gut floral transplant. Interesting enough, I Brian Johnson
Speaker 8: is crazy. So I completely agree with you, Jasarah.
Speaker 12: But I will say the fecal matter transplant does work.
Speaker 12: My hair almost completely gandolfed within a three month period
Speaker 12: and it did help with that. However, that is something
Speaker 12: that is going on where they are trying to stop
Speaker 12: themselves from dying, and I think it is because of
Speaker 12: this level of being afraid of karma, and as Joseph
Speaker 12: Campbell's states, they're also they've mistaken the symbol for the
Speaker 12: little representation of what the symbol represents, and so this
Speaker 12: level of immortality has been this kind of Faustian bargain
Speaker 12: that we've we have as a collective, have mistaken the
Speaker 12: menu for the meal or the map for the territory.
Speaker 8: This, you know, Alfred.
Speaker 12: Korzinski's general semantics is really important, and I feel like
Speaker 12: if these types of ideals were understood in the collective
Speaker 12: zeitgeist all a lot better, which is something I'm trying
Speaker 12: to do with my channel, is trying to get people
Speaker 12: to understand different levels of abstraction from the concrete exp
Speaker 12: experience all the way up into things like orwelling in
Speaker 12: wars peace is that we could really have a lot
Speaker 12: less argumentation and really move ourselves to this higher level
Speaker 12: of like a transcendent experience and magic being everywhere all
Speaker 12: at once. And I will state also how that idea
Speaker 12: of taking control of your intentional awareness, I think is
Speaker 12: why we are all trying to have people understand that
Speaker 12: magic and the embodied practice are what help fine tune
Speaker 12: the nervous system so we can tap into the parasympathetic
Speaker 12: from the sympathetic nervous system and calm the limbic structures.
Speaker 12: Which is kind of what Nick was saying with the herbs,
Speaker 12: you know, talking about sound and all these things. Is
Speaker 12: that like when the more I meditate, the more I
Speaker 12: do kung fu, and the more I read classical literature
Speaker 12: and have my own ritual practice and intentional with my
Speaker 12: with my girlfriend, all of a sudden, everything I'm you know,
Speaker 12: as we all are trying to be creators and trying
Speaker 12: to get our.
Speaker 8: Stuff out there.
Speaker 12: It's like I have to have the little black box,
Speaker 12: you know, we have to have these discussions. The globalized
Speaker 12: world isn't going away. But when we do the silence
Speaker 12: and we finally adapt ourselves to the great mysteries, we
Speaker 12: then can have the intentional awareness of using these things
Speaker 12: with conscious agency. Instead of being the NPCs or you know,
Speaker 12: the robots, or just the slaves that are you know that,
Speaker 12: you know, the master slaved dichotomy that Nitzscha talks about.
Speaker 12: We can then become our own uber manches, which is
Speaker 12: then why that embodied practice is so important, because things
Speaker 12: like an autoimmune disease are also the symptoms of everything
Speaker 12: we're talking about.
Speaker 8: Here me sacrificing.
Speaker 12: My lower you know, my higher desires for my lower
Speaker 12: ones were all of a sudden, I just ate too
Speaker 12: much sugar as my youth, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 12: stressful moments happen, and all of a sudden epigenetics kicks in,
Speaker 12: and then we have these things that we can't figure
Speaker 12: out why they're happening. Why is my immune system attacking itself? Well,
Speaker 12: as we see in the republic, as above, so below,
Speaker 12: as within, so without as so the state goes, so
Speaker 12: does the individual. Well, if the individual continues to be sick,
Speaker 12: so will the state. And if the state continues to
Speaker 12: be sick, so will the individual. So it always go
Speaker 12: back to everything. And I'm saying, whatever kung fu is
Speaker 12: for you, guys, I keep telling everybody in my audience
Speaker 12: and every moment I can get it's do magic and
Speaker 12: train kung fu.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think one of the most powerful magics
Speaker 4: is tidy in your room.
Speaker 5: Is that act of order.
Speaker 4: And I feel like, you know, if there's something wrong,
Speaker 4: if there's something I want to happen, I tidy my room.
Speaker 4: That's my magic.
Speaker 5: Siri. Yeah.
Speaker 9: I think actually this has a lot to do without
Speaker 9: perception of time, this dichotomy between the Luciferian and the Ironman, right,
Speaker 9: it's a it's an attachment to a future that hasn't happened,
Speaker 9: or it's an attachment to a past that you're trying
Speaker 9: to cling onto. So if we start to mend this
Speaker 9: perception of linear time, you know, this idea of their
Speaker 9: their being a back in and forth and come back
Speaker 9: to presence, I think that's really what it is you know,
Speaker 9: we are sacrificing presents for appearance all the time. That's
Speaker 9: what's happening. And if if we instead try to start
Speaker 9: sacrificing appearance the appearance of things for real presence and
Speaker 9: come into real experience, Like so many people have talked
Speaker 9: about the notion of embodiment of presence, you're through ritual,
Speaker 9: through meditation, so many of the of the keys to
Speaker 9: how this is going to happen for humanity, I think
Speaker 9: is through that the with and the lineages that have
Speaker 9: been preserved only an esoteric practices, only on the fringes
Speaker 9: really of things, because it's the rejected knowledge, it's the
Speaker 9: rejected traditions that are actually going to help us come
Speaker 9: back to that presence and that you know, there've been
Speaker 9: the wisdom keepers of what we need now in order
Speaker 9: to kind of revivify society. So yeah, I think that's
Speaker 9: kind of the central pillar presence.
Speaker 4: I love the word revivifi. I'm glad to end our
Speaker 4: session with that word. So I hope that you will
Speaker 4: have very sweet dreams this evening. And thank you so
Speaker 4: much for coming along. I really really enjoyed this conversation,
Speaker 4: so it was great, and I'm so glad that you
Speaker 4: were all able to take part and see you next
Speaker 4: week for entities and then after entities we're going to
Speaker 4: do syops me and Pascal.
Speaker 5: I've been plotting some chats. So thank you so much everyone,
Speaker 5: and hopefully see you again next time.
Speaker 10: Thank you, Sarah, Thanks Sarah, Thanks everybody was lovely.
Speaker 1: Close your eyes, look into the darkness, find the blazing star,
Speaker 1: focus on it. They become the eclipse. Don't feel that
Speaker 1: the show will be doing.
Speaker 9: And guess
Speaker 3: You is sure