WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:05.040 I see something's going to happen. 2 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:10.599 What's going to happen? 3 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:18.239 I don't go up. 4 00:00:24.320 --> 00:00:26.559 We've got loads of participants on this one. Thank you 5 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:31.399 so much to everyone for coming along today. We have 6 00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:33.640 just gone online, so we haven't had much of a 7 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:36.640 chance to do any kind of pre amble or talk 8 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:38.719 about what we're going to talk about. So I'm just 9 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:42.960 going to let this flow quite freely and see what happens. 10 00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:46.079 What we did for the last session was that anyone 11 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:49.799 who wanted to add something to the conversation put their 12 00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:52.399 little yellow hand up and we kind of moved the 13 00:00:52.439 --> 00:00:53.600 conversation along like that. 14 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:54.880 So I think we'll do that. 15 00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:57.119 But what I wanted to do to start off with 16 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:02.039 is talk about why I wanted to do the topic 17 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:05.560 of sacrifice. And what I would like to do is 18 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:10.879 post these sessions where they're like open forums to discuss 19 00:01:10.879 --> 00:01:14.719 a topic, and you've got lots of great heads altogether 20 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:17.879 that you can ask questions too directly as well. So 21 00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:21.359 last week I think we did the Eggragor, which was 22 00:01:21.400 --> 00:01:24.599 really interesting, and each session will lead on from the 23 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:28.799 last one as well. So in Agragor, we talked about 24 00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:34.480 the nature of these kind of thought form entities that 25 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:42.480 start to control individuals or populations, or direct movements or 26 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:46.439 kind of emanations of cult thinking perhaps I might say, 27 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:51.599 or cults or any kind of cultural phenomenon. And this 28 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:54.920 week I thought, drawing from a lot of the stuff 29 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:56.920 that came up in the Agrogol session, we'll talk about 30 00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:03.040 sacrifice because very often the rigora, as we discussed, demands sacrifice. 31 00:02:03.079 --> 00:02:06.680 It requires feeding, it requires energy, it requires our attention. 32 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:09.680 And one thing I'm thinking about a lot with the 33 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:12.759 sort of current headlines and the current news and things 34 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:15.120 that are going on in the world, is it seems 35 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:18.319 as though there's going to be some sort of sacrifice 36 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:20.520 and what is it that's going to be sacrificed. So 37 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:22.879 in this session, I wanted to talk about the nature 38 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:29.599 of sacrifice in magical practice, in spiritual practice, and also 39 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:33.439 the nature of sacrifice as a kind of scapegoat and proxy, 40 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:39.319 which is something that has been part of magical practice 41 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:40.199 and rituals for. 42 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:41.240 A very long time as well. 43 00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:46.199 So we could do a quick kind of moving through 44 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:48.280 the group, and if anyone wants to put their hand 45 00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:54.520 up to introduce themselves and talk about that perspective on sacrifice, 46 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:57.199 we could start with that perhaps. So we have a 47 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:02.120 very very diverse group of people in this zoom call, 48 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:05.240 so I think we should have a pretty interesting conversation. 49 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:09.759 So I know Peter pretty well now. Peter is one 50 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:12.879 of my pals in Istanbul, so I know Peter has 51 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:17.319 very strong and interesting ideas around sacrifice and especially how 52 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:22.159 that relates to mithraic practice. So, Peter, are you up 53 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:23.439 for starting the ball rolling? 54 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:29.800 Not really, I was hiding in the bag, but I 55 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:33.120 wanted to say one thing. I don't resonate with the 56 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:38.439 idea of sacrifice very much. I see it as like 57 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:42.319 the other side of a coin, and for me, the 58 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:45.680 other side of the coin is primary, which is the 59 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:50.800 notion of service. Okay, So this is just one way 60 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:53.159 of framing it. I don't want to insist on it, 61 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:58.400 but I tend to emphasize the notions of service as 62 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:02.520 a mode of alignment with an esoteric current, okay, And 63 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:08.639 personally I see that as a larger teleological evolution. And 64 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:13.759 of course there's countervailing forces at work, which we're seeing 65 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:19.560 these days in a very pronounced form, and that's a 66 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:26.560 very different style of agrigor, as you were pointing out. 67 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:30.800 So it's not the direction in which I personally wish 68 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:36.519 to focus, but I have to recognize that it's a 69 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:41.519 kind of overwhelmingly negative force on the countervailing force. Let's 70 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:48.680 say it's counter initiatory, and it has its own sacrificial forms. 71 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:56.600 So from my perspective, we're dealing with this duality. And 72 00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:02.439 I'm not trying to suggest a kind of larger good 73 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:07.720 versus evil duality, but one is definitely evolutionary and one 74 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:11.319 seems to be counter evolutionary, let's put it that way. 75 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:16.439 So that's what happens to open discussion. 76 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:20.560 And I know that you write about the nature of 77 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:23.839 what is often called the sacrifice of the bull in 78 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:29.800 the Mathraic system. Could you maybe talk about your perspective 79 00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:31.800 of what was actually happening there. 80 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:38.000 Well, it's such a multi level, multi valent symbol. I 81 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:43.040 guess at the base level, we're talking about this turning 82 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:47.839 away from the obsession with the self towards an obsession 83 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:52.839 with the larger evolutionary currents in which we're all immersed. 84 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:59.360 So that the ball isn't actually sacrificed. In the mithraicteroptomy, 85 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:02.800 it's stabbed in the shoulder, that's to say, it's weakened 86 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:07.720 in the classical way in which a bullfight proceeds through 87 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:11.879 a weakening of the bull, and therefore it can just 88 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:18.040 as easily be read as a weakening of primordial instincts 89 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:22.519 to allow higher forms of consciousness to emerge and to 90 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:27.240 take an ascendant role in your life. And again that 91 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:31.040 is very much tied to this notion of service, where 92 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:35.360 the lower aspects of the self are sacrificed to an extent, 93 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:41.399 although willingly, willingly given up because you're pursuing a much 94 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:43.279 much deeper and larger current. 95 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:46.959 Okay, great, thank you very much, Peter. 96 00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:54.480 Iike righty, Hello, everybody. Good to be here again. I 97 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:57.399 especially love what Peter is talking about here. I think 98 00:06:57.399 --> 00:06:59.759 it was out of everybody that I know here, which 99 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:02.360 I don't know everybody, but I know many of the 100 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:04.800 people here. I think Peter is who I would have 101 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:08.480 chosen to lead the combo as well, because when when 102 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:14.720 we've spoken many times, service has come up, and I 103 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:18.079 take that attack as well. Coming from the hermetic order 104 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:22.680 of the Golden Dawn. You know, a lot of people 105 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:26.720 aren't fully aware because they don't get they don't get 106 00:07:26.759 --> 00:07:31.120 into the depths the profundity of the inner order. But 107 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:36.920 it's it's based on service and self sacrifice, and really 108 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:44.000 not in this kind of smug, self important way, but 109 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:50.000 in in various ways that are focused through ritual and 110 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:53.079 the way that I've and and of course right in 111 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:56.079 your life you're wicked day living. But the way that 112 00:07:56.120 --> 00:07:59.279 I've come to understand it is that, well, if we're 113 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:01.800 going to talk about sacrifice, I guess this is kind 114 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:07.160 of my niche here is kind of parsing words neurotically 115 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:10.759 like I do, like you know, alphabetizing my bookshelves and 116 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:14.480 things of this nature. But we should talk about different 117 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:18.040 the different kinds of sacrifice. We should clarify terms there 118 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:22.120 to kind of get to the heart of what's at stake. 119 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:28.240 For me, it's it's sacrificed. Very much is based on 120 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:32.879 a duality, as Peter said, particularly the duality of free 121 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:37.159 will and determinism. We sacrifice things all of the time. 122 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:41.799 I sacrifice time for money, money for leisure. Is that 123 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:44.679 all saying you cannot have your cake and eat it too. 124 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:47.639 And even though this might not be sacrificed in its 125 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:51.320 most grandiose aspects, it certainly applies when we're thinking about eggrigors. 126 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:57.279 For me, it comes down to choosing what and how 127 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:02.159 you sacrifice. And there are various types of sacrifice, right, 128 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:07.919 we have material sacrifices that the ancient Hellenistic and Greco 129 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:14.679 Roman theorists, even even in cultic basic cultic practices, they 130 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:18.200 would sacrifice stones, they would sacrifice food, they would sacrifice 131 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:24.600 all sorts of things. They would sacrifice animals. Even then, 132 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:27.399 when you look at somebody like again to bring them 133 00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:29.879 up the Amblicus or let's say Proclus, some of the 134 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:35.759 later Neo Platonic or late Platonic philosophers that were theurgically oriented, 135 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:40.960 they were not necessarily concerned with placating anything they were 136 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:46.320 concerned with. As the Amblicus Proclus essentially distilled it, sacrifice 137 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:51.080 not for the gods, sacrifices for us. It's for us 138 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:56.279 in order that we become accustomed to seeing the divine 139 00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:01.480 in everything around us. So you know, you can sacrifice 140 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:04.120 also your as I kind of mentioned, you can sacrifice 141 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:08.399 your consciousness. In ancient theurgic or hermetic terms, this would 142 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:12.080 have been a sort of noedic contemplation, offering that up 143 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:18.759 to a higher forces, deities, spiritual entities, but also in 144 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:21.960 things like just your time and attention. We don't realize it. 145 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:26.559 You know, everything out here is clamoring for your time 146 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:28.480 and attention, and some of it is worthy and some 147 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:29.600 of it is absolutely not. 148 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:33.919 But I guess to. 149 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:40.200 In creating this stratification of sacrifices, I open it up 150 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:45.120 to the rest of the panel to discuss, you know what, 151 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:48.320 what in particular, what aspects of sacrifice they focus on, 152 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:51.000 or they're more concerned with, or how do they relate 153 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:53.320 to each other. But I will definitely say, just to 154 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:59.200 bring it full full circle, that that that keystone of 155 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:06.799 free will and and and conscious selection of what you're 156 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:09.879 going to sacrifice is tied deeply into what Peter said, 157 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:14.639 sacrifice willingly given, willingly given, And it can happen on 158 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:16.639 a very very mundane level, it can happen on a 159 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:18.679 very very rarefied and spiritual level. 160 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:22.039 Thank you, Ike, Siri. 161 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:30.120 Yeah, hi everyone. So coming at this from a more 162 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.360 kind of conceptual level, but also from from a perspective 163 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:40.159 of historical developments. I really like what both Peter and 164 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:42.519 Ike said, and I agree with that there is a 165 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:47.879 duality to sacrifice. Catherine Bell History of Religion. She wrote 166 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:50.240 a book on rituals, and she talks about sacrifice as 167 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:53.559 an idea where it's not the same as as giving 168 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:59.279 up and offering in the sacrifice. Usually the thing sacrificed 169 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.639 is somehow destroid So Peter touches on this right. So 170 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:04.879 the question is is it your lower self that's being 171 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:08.559 sacrificed for higher purpose or you know? And is it 172 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:12.240 a willing sacrifice or not? And if looking at this 173 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:16.320 from like a historical developing perspective, like developmental perspective, I 174 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:21.679 really like Boudrea's four faces of the image that he 175 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:26.039 writes about in his book on Similar Simulation. I think 176 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:28.519 that's very important to think about. So in a culture, 177 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:34.080 for example, where kind of in the ancient mystery cults, 178 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:38.639 the reflection of image is a reflection of profound reality. 179 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:42.440 It's a pure presence, right, It's actually there the thing. 180 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:46.000 It's not a symbol of something, It is the thing 181 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:49.039 it symbolizes. It has a presence to it. And I 182 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:53.360 think sacrifice ritually enacted in that kind of environment and 183 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:55.720 that kind of framework of thinking is quite different from 184 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:57.759 what you see in the later developments. So the second 185 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.279 kind of definition that he has for it is that 186 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:06.480 it kind of masks something, right, So the masking of 187 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:12.360 mysterious reality or mysterious presence kind of increases as we 188 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:16.080 go through the levels of history. Currently, we are very 189 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:21.360 much in a in a situation where everything in society 190 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:26.279 is mimicry. That you know, It's not that we don't 191 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:28.120 live in this perception. I mean some of the people 192 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:30.840 here probably do, because you do ritual and you're esotericist, right, 193 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:36.080 But in kind of secular society, we are operating in 194 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:41.120 this kind of perspective of simulacra, right, or similar simulacrum, 195 00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:44.279 which means that the sacrifice is no longer happened in 196 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:48.840 these kinds of ritual or elevated contexts, but they happen 197 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:55.600 through let's say, unwilling sacrifice of human beings to corporations 198 00:13:55.600 --> 00:14:00.279 for example, that sort of thing. So yeah, I think 199 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:02.240 it's I think it's important to kind of distinguish that. 200 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:05.639 So the way that the ancients might have understood this 201 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:08.720 is really not quite what's happening in our own culture 202 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.960 to a large extent, Right. I also want to point to, 203 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:16.919 like there's a as an interesting book by Volney called 204 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:19.759 The Ruins of Empires, which came out in seventeen ninety two, right, 205 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:22.360 just like right around the time of the French Revolution, 206 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:25.799 and he talks about this is kind of touching on 207 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:29.679 Peter's earlier point of how this operates. Right, that and 208 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:33.559 the ancient mystery mystery is then right are turned into 209 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:36.759 moral systems and transformed, and you end up with a 210 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:41.840 with a kind of notion of sacrificial rights that are 211 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:46.360 warped and kind of you know, turned into their exact opposite. 212 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:49.360 It's not a soulth sacrifice of service anymore. It's an 213 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:55.200 enforced sacrifice of giving up your time and yourself to 214 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:59.639 working for somebody who doesn't care about you or you know, 215 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:04.600 who does give you any yeah, a proper return for 216 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:08.840 your services, you know. So I think it's I think 217 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:10.840 it's interesting to look at that development. 218 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:13.440 Thank you, sirih Yeah. 219 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:17.080 I think a lot of sacrifices have become a bit 220 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:20.960 like a lot of religions have become more kind of 221 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:27.399 symbolic and lost the essential nature because we're just paying 222 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:31.600 lip service to the idea of sacrifice rather than engaging 223 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:33.279 in that act of service for something. 224 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:36.759 Miles, May I come to you now and ask you 225 00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:37.480 because I know. 226 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:41.039 Miles, you go on a lot of pilgrimages and you 227 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:46.240 have a quite different tradition in relationship to Tibetan Buddhism 228 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:48.759 and things like this. So how does sacrifice fit in 229 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:52.840 to your idea of pilgrimage, like as do you consider 230 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:55.799 it to be an active service or is it a 231 00:15:55.919 --> 00:16:00.600 sacrifice of time and energy, because obviously making a pilgrimage 232 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.440 is a beautiful thing as well. 233 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:06.879 Thanks Sarah, and so nice to be with you all. 234 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:09.759 So interesting for me to hear all the perspectives. I 235 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:11.840 love how you've already laid it out so beautifully with 236 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:18.919 the different levels. Just my mind works so in a 237 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:20.799 weird way. I was thinking about a story. I don't 238 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:24.120 know if it'll fit here, but I travel on pilgrimage. 239 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:28.480 I basically curate pilgrimages for a Tibetan master, Kisha Tensen Sopa. 240 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:32.639 We were in Japan two years ago. You know, from 241 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:35.879 a Buddhist perspective, the pilgrimage is an act of doing 242 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.600 two things. Basically, one is called purification and the other 243 00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:43.159 is accumulation of merit. I'm sure in the Western tradition 244 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:46.080 there's some sort of equivalent to it, but essentially there's 245 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:48.240 some shedding that needs to happen, which is done on 246 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:53.840 a voluntary basis, like one takes a pilgrim's mindset to 247 00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:58.879 volunteer to let go of something. On the most rudimentary level, 248 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:02.120 of course, it's time and money and time away from family. 249 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:05.240 But then really the purification has to do with karma, 250 00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:08.640 the accumulation of all kinds of negative tendencies and imprints 251 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:11.880 on the mindstream. And so the idea of going on 252 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.480 a sacred journey is not just necessarily to make it 253 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:18.200 to the final destination, but along the way, how one 254 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:24.039 engages in just the arisings of consequences and impasses and 255 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:27.279 flight delays. And I mean, imagine if you are right 256 00:17:27.319 --> 00:17:30.440 now in Dubai or somewhere, and you know, the difference 257 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:33.039 between a tour is stranded in Dubai and a pilgrim 258 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.960 stranded in Dubai is quite different. That condition or circumstance 259 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:44.640 for the well trained would be a ripe initiatory opportunity 260 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:49.160 for shedding of selfishness or greed or pride or jealousy 261 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:53.160 or whatever the rub might be. And of course while 262 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:57.480 things are being shed, then there's also the opportunities along 263 00:17:57.480 --> 00:17:59.720 the way, not just at the destination of the power places, 264 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.519 but along the way with other pilgrims without their like 265 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:07.039 minded people to to cultivate virtues. So if anyone's traveled 266 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:09.400 on the Camino, for example, I mean the good cheer 267 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:14.119 that is spread liberally across the road, you know, is really, 268 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.920 you know, archetypally exactly where our civilization should be heading. 269 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:23.680 You know, people of different orientations, people of different temperaments, 270 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.720 people of their own unique predilections, still share something in common, 271 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:32.400 which is gratitude and humility and respect. And so there's 272 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:36.440 there's that kind of lubrication along the road. To go 273 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:38.279 back to Gesha Tens and Zopa, there was a moment 274 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:42.119 we were in Koyasan, which is the tantric enclave of Japan, 275 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:46.319 and we had several nuns with us in addition to 276 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:50.519 just a coord of mostly Western pilgrims. And then one 277 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:54.039 of our nuns, you know, had a knee issue, and 278 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:56.519 so we had asked for a chair in this Shikubo 279 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.400 a guesthouse, temple guesthouse. Gesha Tens and Zoe but was 280 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.039 with us. I was the cure organizer, So I was, 281 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:06.880 you know, busying myself trying to you know, find solutions 282 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:11.880 for people. The whole time, it's just you know, like, 283 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:15.640 so somebody she needed a chair, and it seemed like 284 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:17.480 such a modest request. You know, she couldn't sit on 285 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:19.160 the floor to eat her meal. So I was looking 286 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:20.720 for a chair. We asked for a chair, and there 287 00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:24.000 was probably one of the managers was quite blunt and 288 00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:30.480 said no, you know, which caught everybody off guard. And 289 00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:34.599 so right there in that moment, what arises in your 290 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.000 mindstream is is the kind of thing, you know, if 291 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:40.000 it's a negative, if it's a negative reaction, then it's 292 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:42.440 the kind of thing that alerts to your consciousness. This 293 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:47.119 is something to be purified. It could be you know, concern, 294 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:49.119 it could be anger, could be outraged, it could be 295 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:52.519 indignation or whatever it is, or just you know, you know, 296 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:57.920 some sort of resentment or whatever. Not understanding the culture 297 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:01.759 and not understanding you know. Anyway, the nun and I 298 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:07.119 are looked at each other, you know, we were like, 299 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:11.200 what's going on here? But Gesha, Tens and Zopa turned 300 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:13.519 it into a wonderful teaching moment. You know, he's you know, 301 00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:16.599 in the middle of it. He basically stopped everybody and said, listen, 302 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:23.079 you know, he's right. There's something so valuable from the No, 303 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:27.599 when we need something for us to look at, we 304 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.640 need we need to hear that, we need to hear 305 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:33.680 more knows, especially in our culture, which is instant, instant 306 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.039 gratification and entitlement and all of this. So it's where 307 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:40.119 the rub the rub the rubber meets the road. That's 308 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.000 where Gesha tens and Zoba was saying, no, No, that's 309 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.359 where you're This is our teacher. He was basically saying, 310 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.160 this is a tradition in Tibet called lo jung the 311 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:51.359 mind transformation. It's taking the adversity and turning it on 312 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:54.359 its own head and showing you, you know, in the 313 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:57.240 mirror where the work can be, where the work can 314 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:01.240 be applied. But then he did this other remarkable thing. 315 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:03.480 And I don't hope I'm not taking too much time 316 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:10.240 in boring you, but it'll always stay with me. He said, 317 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:17.720 who's moving? Actually, he said, you know, don't Don't you 318 00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:22.920 think I want to be comfortable too? Don't you think 319 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:27.559 I want to be stress free and have a fun life. 320 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:29.519 Don't you think I want to live in a comfortable 321 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:33.079 high bed? He and I never I've been with him 322 00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:34.799 twenty years. He never said this either, said, don't you 323 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:38.400 think I want a family and kids, so I want 324 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:42.319 all of that, but none of that is conducive to 325 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:48.079 my higher aspiration. And this is what is regarded in 326 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:51.440 our tradition as the great Bodhisatfa resolved the altruists, the 327 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:57.640 awakened altruists who seeks to benefit others using their embodiment 328 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:00.279 and whatever challenges arise. And so what he is at 329 00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:04.519 the very end was I'm up to my neck in responsibility. 330 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.640 He grabbed his story like that, he said, but I'm 331 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:14.000 only looking for more. I'm only looking for more. I 332 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:17.000 don't know where that lands for people, or even in 333 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:19.640 the right track here, but you know, when you asked 334 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:21.400 me to come on, I thought the first thought I 335 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.599 thought of about sacrifice with some image of like a 336 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:27.559 goat on an altar in Greece or something. I don't 337 00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:30.680 know why that, but here it is. Here's the image 338 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:33.480 that you know. Maybe you can speak to it, any 339 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.720 of you. What the hell am I talking about? How 340 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:40.839 do I make this departure? What relevance does this story have? 341 00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:44.599 That's great, very relevant? 342 00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:48.799 I think anyone else want to come in after myles 343 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:49.599 lovely story? 344 00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:57.319 Thank you, Miles, I'd. 345 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:01.480 Be happy to jump in Sarah, Yeah, I'm kind of 346 00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:06.640 approaching this from a place of curiosity and mystery, as 347 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:11.680 since sacrifice and offerings is this universal that shows up 348 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:16.359 across cultures, why does it show up in so many 349 00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:21.279 different places? You know, what is the origins the origins 350 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:25.279 of the sacrificial impulse, So that that's curious for me 351 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:28.519 as well, and maybe someone else could touch on that. 352 00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:32.359 But there are a number of counterpoints and examples in 353 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:36.880 history that the kind of imply the need for the 354 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:40.480 self sacrifice and kind of the virtuous behavior at the 355 00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:43.960 earliest stage. One early example of this is the book 356 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:48.079 Book of Isaiah, right where God is condemning the Israelites 357 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.039 for having so much blood on their hands, but for 358 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:56.799 not having a corresponding virtue expressed in their behavior. And 359 00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:59.720 then you get, you know, we could jump to Apollonius 360 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:03.920 of Tyana, who's who's looking at these characters approach the 361 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.359 temple and they're throwing gold, and they're throwing animals, and 362 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:10.920 you know, they're they're wealthy, and they're throwing is all 363 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:13.720 these things at the altar and they're thinking that you 364 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:16.720 know this, this is clearly a projection of their ego 365 00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:20.720 in the sacrifice they're not really sacrificing anything that's that's 366 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:25.440 actually has that emotional kind of connection to them. And 367 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:30.319 he kind of he, you know, he corrects this and 368 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:36.720 and he encourages this verbal or sacrifice of intelligence and gratitude, 369 00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:40.119 and it brings it back to this internal kind of 370 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:44.200 behavioral approach, which is also implied in the sort of 371 00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:47.319 Book of Isaiah that you need that corresponding behavior or 372 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:50.480 else these rituals are just the you know, these kind 373 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:57.279 of meaningless, meaningless rituals without any correspondence. And you know 374 00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:00.799 in across the corpus her medicum in a f you places, 375 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.920 when they talk about sacrifice, it is it is explicitly 376 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:08.480 in this kind of verbal in the in the manner 377 00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.000 of how you pray and you know what you're giving 378 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:15.559 gratitude for and you're sacrificing the twelve avenging diamonds, which 379 00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:19.559 are which are these sinful behaviors. So uh, those are 380 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:24.119 some early examples of of sacrifice you know, connected with 381 00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:28.559 self transformation. And that's like that strikes me as very 382 00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:33.839 applicable to our modern predicament, you know, especially with our 383 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:38.839 instant gratification society and so and so on. We should 384 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:42.799 get clear about you know, what we are sacrificing and 385 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:46.359 and why. And I think in everyone's life, you're going 386 00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:48.640 to reach this the kind of the dark night of 387 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:52.440 the soul moment where you get this choice and the choices. 388 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:56.000 You know, do I want to sacrifice these these darker 389 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.559 aspects and these greedier aspects of my ego that they 390 00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:01.759 make me feel good and they provide this kind of 391 00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:05.279 short term you know, rushes of dopamine and so forth. 392 00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:08.160 Do I want to sacrifice those things for this higher 393 00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:11.920 calling and this higher purpose? And right there is the 394 00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:15.680 kind of conversation that I think is very applicable to 395 00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:17.480 our modern predicament. 396 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:20.480 Yeah, Colin, thank you very much. 397 00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:24.799 That really reminds me of like Peter mentioned sacrifice as 398 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:29.519 being this kind of purification process and that it isn't 399 00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:32.640 something necessarily that you are unwilling to give up. It's 400 00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:35.319 an act of service. And it makes me think about 401 00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:38.799