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Speaker 1: Well, sorry, James, I'll go ahead. I just asked if

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you want.

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Speaker 2: But.

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Speaker 3: I will, and you can take it wherever you wish.

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That's what we do here. Imagine your roblong and I'm

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asking a question that he's just going to go where

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he wants to go.

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Speaker 1: Ask not what your country can do for you, Ask

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what you can do for your country.

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Speaker 3: Mister Gorbut you'll tear down this wall. It's the Ricordshe

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Podcast with Stephen Hayward and Charles C. W.

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Speaker 1: Cook.

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Speaker 3: I'm James Lellax. Today we're going to be talking to

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Anne McCarthy about Trump's leap of woes and more so,

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let severs was a podcast.

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Speaker 4: How should voters look at some of the changes that

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you've made that you've explained some of here in your policy.

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Is it because you have more experience now and you've

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learned more about the information? Is it because you were

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running for president and a Democratic primary? And should they

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feel comfortable and confident that what you're saying now is

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going to be your policy?

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Speaker 3: Moving from Welcome everybody, this is the Ricochet Podcast, number

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seven hundred and six. I'm James Lilax drinking a cup

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of tepid office coffee in a skyscraper in downtown Minneapolis,

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which did not burn to the ground parts. Yes, but

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the fires did not lap on the shores of our

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corporate office here and I'm joined by Stephen Hayward and

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Charles C. W. Cook. Gentlemen, Hello, between Florida and California.

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Once again we span the nation.

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Speaker 1: Actually, James, I am coming to today from Raykovic, Iceland.

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We're combining a business and pleasure trip. But I have

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found something for your Lilax Museum of Curious Cultural Collections,

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whatever you call it. Did you know, Yeah, because r

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right next to my hotel turns out to be the

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most visited museum in Iceland. It's called the Icelandic Fall.

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A lot of hamilgrit and Theseum.

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Speaker 3: No, it's not okay, No, I know what you're thinking.

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Speaker 1: You're thinking of the hot dog place that's the other

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side of my hotel.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 3: I believe it was a hamburger that was putt It

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was a hamburger, that hamberger that was put under glass

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in Iceland about twenty years ago McDonald's Hamburger and is

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not decomposed in the least bit anyway. So phallologically, yeah,

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what's the only it's the only penis museum in the

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world that is exactly what you think it is.

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Speaker 1: Ah, Okay, the brochure says it's family friendly. I'm skeptical

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of this, but there you go. I'll send you the brochure.

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Speaker 3: Well, since my side is the Gallery of Regrettable Food,

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I am not sure whether or not that would constitute

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a goustatory experience, but of course it depends on one's

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orientation of preference.

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Speaker 1: They have a phallic cafe b stro James, so maybe

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it will make your gast Okay.

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Speaker 3: I you know, I I missed that when I was there,

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and I advise that everybody in their lifetime should go

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to Iceland, because it really is an incredible, spectacular, amazing place,

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this little island of civil It's little, this this this

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civilization that they built on this rock, which has in

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the you know, a certain part of the day, a

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certain part of the year, it's just always bright and

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then a certain part of the year is always dark.

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So everyone has two jobs in an alcoholic habit and

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and they're in a band. I just I love the place, Charles.

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How are you? How's Florida Muggy?

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Speaker 5: I assume no, it's really nice. It's really nice. I've

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bed to Iceland. I went in two thousand and seven.

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I agree, everyone's drunk, but that's why they have no money,

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because it's so expensive to drink in ice. And that's

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in Scandinavia. And I annoyed my sister on that trip

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by eating a puffin in a restaurant.

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Speaker 3: Braids braised, puffin. Why not?

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Speaker 6: It was on the menu.

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Speaker 3: Do they bring the beak?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 5: But it was on the menu, and I thought, well,

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I'll try that because I like trying random and unusual things.

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And then she said, well, you can't eat a puffin.

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They're so cute, and I thought, well, now I have

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to eat a puffin.

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Speaker 1: Well they don't they taste like spotted owls?

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Speaker 3: I think, I exactly with a little snail darter relish

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if you will. One of the things that I love

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about Iceland, Reykovic, and also what it sort of says

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about Europe and Northern Europe, is that they have this

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incredible modern cathedral, this church. But you don't really get

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the sense that anybody believes in any of that stuff.

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I mean, if you were to believe it, if you

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were to build a church for a culture that was

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nominally habitually, ritualistically Christian, but really didn't believe it it

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would be that church. That was just the feeling that

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I got. It's so spare, it is absolutely so white

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and so pure, but so somehow lacking that wonderful effervescent

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divinity that you get in baroque churches, for example. But

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enough of our travelog gear. We're here to discuss the

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ways and means by which the country is going to

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come to rack and or ruin or success or as usual,

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middle and muddel in betwixt the two points. So we

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had an interview with Kamala Harris this week on CNN

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in which she laid everything out. I get the impression

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that the problem that we have been suffering in this

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country is an insufficient amount of government. Is that basically

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what you get. We're about four percent away. For if

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we had four percent or maybe seven percent more government,

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we would solve housing, we would solve the middle class problems.

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We would solve climate change, which we have to do

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on a schedule that is of time and to hours

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and the weeks that she said, so, what did you

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take away from this? Did you do you think this

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is a fresh breath emanating from the Biden administration. A

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clean break revitalized attempt to drag Joe Biden's great policies

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over the goal line. Well don't everybody talk at once.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 5: I don't know what I made of it, because she

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didn't say anything. She did an interview, she well, she

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answered questions, but she didn't really advance anything. And there

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was a tweet that went out off It's by DNM

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where they said, we got closer to understanding. They always

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talk about her, so she's an ancient Mayan civilization. We

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got closer to understanding what Kamala Harris wants to do.

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And I thought, well, actually that's not true at all.

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She didn't account for her shifts in policy. She said,

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my values haven't changed. And what she should have done

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if she was going to make that argument is say,

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here are two or three examples of where the policy

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has changed, but the values that informed them were different

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for this or that reason. In fact, Dana Bash tried

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to set her up to do that by giving her

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the answer before she gave it, but she didn't. She

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then said that, oh, I know that in twenty nineteen

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I said I would ban fracking, but in twenty twenty,

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I said I wouldn't, which isn't even true. In twenty

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twenty she said Joe Biden wouldn't ban fracking. She didn't

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explain why she shifted view, or even if she has so.

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Throughout Yes, I got the vague, effveescent sense that she

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wants more government and that she thinks that we have

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been beholden to some ancient ideology for too long. But

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she never actually really outline what she wanted to do,

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so I don't think it was particularly useful as a voter.

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Speaker 3: Stephen. There have been attempts recently, devious attempts, I think

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rhetorical slights of hands that have attempted to tether That's

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the word Kamila Harris with a Biden adminstration. Was there

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was there tethering going on? Was there breaking going on?

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Was there was there? Was there anything going on that

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made you sit up and say that's new?

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. One of the blessings of being

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on overseas travel as you got to miss it, and

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I've only caught up with a few things I've seen online.

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I think Charlie puts his finger on something. The most

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important part of it is her saying over and over

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again her one message was my values haven't changed, which

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ought to be the four most terrifying words in the

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English language today, you know, after one's the old Ronald

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Ringing line, I'm from the government. I'm here to help,

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because what are those values. They're all pretty deeply radical,

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as any check of the record will show. And if

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you had an alert Trump campaign, and it's still not

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clear whether we have one or not, they would be

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running ads and they just have a clip of her

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saying my values haven't changed, and then just throwing up

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on the screen some of her previous statements on what

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her values are. I think that it was a wink

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and a nod to progressives and the media. Who are

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you know, carrying water for saying, you know, don't worry,

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I'm still the progressive if you want, and you know,

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backing down on fracking and sting relatively quiet about climate change.

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For the most part, it's going to be you know,

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Biden times ten when I get past the electorates in November.

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I think that this is not new, by the way,

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this has been a democratic playbook for quite a while,

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and people like Obama going all the way back to

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Doucaucus can try and get away with it, and have

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in some instances, like Bill Clinton, But in her case,

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she's got such a long record of very radical views

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that it still astounds me to think that she can

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away with it. On the other hand, as has been

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pointed out, the election is not sixty five days off

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or whatever it is. Early voting starts in three weeks,

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and so the votes will start getting locked into the

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can very very soon.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 3: The CNN story about the interview says, Harris laid out

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an economic plan earlier this month, did you know, focused

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on bringing down costs on food, housing, and childcare, in

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part by going harder after corporations. There's stunning new development.

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She's going harder after those corporations. Her proposals include efforts

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to combat price gouging. My my mind, Okay, so we

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are going to do that again, where we're going to

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go and investigate and of course it doesn't matter whether

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or not anybody actually is price gouging. What matters is

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that they're going to be dragged through a process that

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we'll just add to their costs and you know, cripple

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them and keep them from doing things and hesitate to

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do this and they'll have rippling effects about the entire economy.

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But oh, well, you know she's doing something. She's least

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she's doing something. Recently, here we had an institution which

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raised its prices by eight percent. Eight percent, just announce

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eight percent. And the strain thing about it is here

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is that you don't have the option not to pay.

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You have to because there are property taxes. Our property

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taxes going up eight percent, and what's more, because of

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the new evaluations. It's a tax on unrealized gains. It's

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just perfect. Do we have any saying this, No, no, no,

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we just absolutely have to pay. That's not gouging at all, though. No,

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that's an absolutely reasonable response to the needs of the

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particulars of the people. But she also said that she

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was going to ramp up construction of affordable housing. Now,

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low information people may not look at that and nod

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and say, well, that's good. Folks need housing. That's something,

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But this is not the job of the federal government.

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The reason that you don't have affordable housing and so

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many of the cities that need it. Leaving aside whether

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or not the homeless crisis is a result of the

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lack of affordable housing usually isn't is because you have

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any number of heavy boat anchors that are draped around

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the neck of the people who are trying to build

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these things, from the code requirements to the cost of material,

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from this to that that. I mean, San Francisco does

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not have an a lack of affordable housing because there

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are people just for some reason who can't build there.

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I mean, it's it's the process, it's the rules, it's

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the nimbi's, it's the rest of it, things over which

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Kamala Harris has absolutely no control whatsoever, unless we want

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the federal government to march into our communities and say, well,

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you know what, you don't have enough affordable housing in

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this neighborhood. Therefore we're gonna build them, which they've been

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trying to do for years and years and years and

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years and years. And if that's what she's talking about,

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redoubling that effort to just sort of sweep aside what

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people in particular communities want and say, we're doing it

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from Washington. We're telling you what in Idaho you got

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to have in your neighborhood. That's again, dare I say

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I get the idea that she's in favor of expansion

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of the state that maybe just me.

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Speaker 1: Maybe, just could you have gotten that idea, James, Look,

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the land thing, I mean, the talk of bringing back

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price controls. Let's be clear, that's what she's really talking about.

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That's a bad idea we thought we'd gotten rid of

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for the last time in the seventies. You may remember, James,

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I know you follow these things. I know the history

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of it. There was a push back in the mid

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seventies at the time of price controls to have the

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federal government get directly involved with local zoning. In other words,

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weren't just going to leave it to states and cities.

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And you know, there were bills in Congress that was

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back on the palmy days of the Clean Air Act

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and the Clean Water Act and all the other national

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legislation we passed after the First Earth Day, and you

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know it got shot down in Congress because of massive

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resistance by the states and local governments and the home

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building industry and others.

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Speaker 3: But I wouldn't be.

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Speaker 1: All surprised if we're there have been sort of backed

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or ways to try and coerce states and cities for

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a while now. But I wouldn't be surprised if we

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did not see from the Harris administration a brand new

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initiative to get the federal government directly involved in local

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zoning decisions.

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Speaker 5: I just think it's worth saying that this line that

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I've started to see that Kamala Harris is some sort

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of yimbi yes in my backyard is ridiculous because the

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primary reason that the demo crowds are struggling on this

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issue is that there are a whole host of interest

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groups on whom they rely that stand in the way

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of the production of new homes and development more generally,

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and those are environmental groups, unions of various sorts, and

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other left wing interest groups that don't like development for

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various reasons.

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Speaker 3: And this is a.

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Speaker 5: Problem that will only be solved when a Democrat stands

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up and says to those people, no, it is more

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important for us to fix this on the supply side

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than it is for you to get what you want.

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And I just don't see any evidence that this is happening.

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If you read left leaning self professed wonks in the

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United States, you will see that they are aware, especially

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in California, New York, that they have an issue here,

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but they don't really know how to fix it, because

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the internal politics within the party makes fixing it really tough.

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And I just see nothing in the history of Kamala

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Harris's life of public role that suggests that she has

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an interest in doing that whatsoever, Which is why, in

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addition to saying all of these things that some reformers

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have said are encouraging, she said, I'm going to give

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twenty five thousand dollars to anyone who's by, because that's

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actually something that won't be upsetting to the people she

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needs to win the election and keep on side.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, I think that's all very unfair, Charlie. We

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know that she curls up at night with a glass

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of wine in a copy of Shane Jacob's Life in

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Different of the Cities. Just deeply interesting, a great book

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and developed the progress it is, indeed, But that's another podcast.

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In this podcast, we bring you Andy McCarthy. Andy McCarthy,

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We're proud to do so again, senior fellow the National

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Review Institute and a contributing editor there as well as

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at Fox News. Andy, welcome back. Breaking news, right, Hi.

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Speaker 2: Jans, how are you good? Yes, breaking news. Trump is

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trying to get his sentencing in the Manhattan case postponed

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by moving again in federal court to have the state

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proceeding removed there, that is, to have the federal court

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take jurisdiction over it.

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Speaker 6: And the point of.

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Speaker 2: This is there's now a profound immunity question in connection

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with Braggs prosecution, and immunity is supposed to be litigated

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whether Trump wins it or not as a different matter,

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but immunity is supposed to be litigated through appeal before

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other proceedings in the case happen. And that's obvious enough

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that even Alvin Bragg, the District Attorney of Manhattan who

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brought the case, has conceded that there should be a postponement.

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At this point, sentencing is supposed to happen on September eighteenth.

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For whatever reason, Judge Merchon, who has been I think

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credibly accused of being biased against the defense in this case,

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has not acted on the motion to postpone the sentencing,

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even though the prosecutor agrees that it should be postponed.

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And the way this is teed up at the moment,

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merch On has said that he'll rule on Trump's immunity

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claim on September sixteenth, and then proceed to sentence him

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on September eighteenth, which certainly suggests that he's trying to

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frustrate Trump's appellate rights by not giving him enough time

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to get to another court to stop the sentencing from

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going forward until the immunities decided. So they're going to

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federal court at this point now to try to make

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them act.

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Speaker 3: Before I hand it over to Stephen and Charles. I

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just want to bring everybody up to speed, because memories

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are short. Remind everybody what Trump fell for in this case.

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I use fell in the old dragnet sense of having

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been found guilty.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, this is a very strange case. You know.

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Speaker 2: I think there's some really strong allegations against Trump that

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come out of the law fair stuff.

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Speaker 6: This case is just a joke.

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Speaker 2: He was accused in thirty four counts of falsifying his

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business records in order to conceal a second crime. Ordinarily,

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in New York, nobody gets prosecuted for these kinds of offenses,

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particularly under Bragg, who is like a textbook progressive prosecutor. Ordinarily,

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business records offenses are misdemeanors. These misdemeanors happened, I think

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now twenty seventeen, so seven years ago. The statute of

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limitations on misdemeanors is two years. By alleging that Trump

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was trying to conceal a second defense, he got it

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inflated from a misdemeanor to a felony and thereby did

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an end around the misdemeanor statute of limitations. And then

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he carved this one transaction into thirty four by basically

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taking each piece of paper that was involved in the

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payments that occurred here and charging it as a separate felony,

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which totals up to I think one hundred and thirty

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four or one hundred and thirty six years of criminal exposure.

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It's capped at twenty in New York, but that's still

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a lot of a lot of penalty. So that's the crime,

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and I think the outrage, well, there's a lot of

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outrage about the case, but the worst part of it

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is that the judge did not require the jury to

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find beyond a reasonable doubt what the second crime was

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because the judge misinterpreted the law of conspiracy. What Bragg

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relied on as the so called second crime was a

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New York election law conspiracy to influence an election.

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Speaker 6: By unlawful conduct.

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Speaker 2: And therefore Bragg said, as long as the jury finds

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beyond a reasonable doubt that he conspired to influence the election,

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then that's sufficient.

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Speaker 6: So we don't have to figure out what.

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Speaker 2: Unlawful conduct he agreed to participate in.

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Speaker 6: And the problem with that.

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Speaker 2: Is in conspiracy law, first of all, it's not a

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crime to influence an election.

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Speaker 6: That's what campaigns try to do.

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Speaker 2: What makes it a crime, What makes it a conspiracy

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is the agreement, the meeting of the minds by two

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or more people on the criminal objective. So you can't

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have a conspiracy in the criminal law unless the jury

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agrees beyond a reasonable doubt on what the statute, the

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criminal statute the crime that makes it a conspiracy. Otherwise,

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if it's just an agreement to influence the election, that's

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not criminal.

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Speaker 6: So there's a lot of problems with the case.

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Speaker 1: Well, any it's Steve Hayward who said a couple of

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days ago, why don't we have Andy here since so

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much legal news is breaking this week, and it turns

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out to be timely. Look my summary for lay persons,

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which I think as a lawyer you may find a

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little too cute, which was they try to elevate a

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misdemeanor jaywalking into a felony by first counting every step

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taken across the road as a separate felony, and two

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saying once the person reached the other side the road,

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he was either gonna mug somebody or rob a liquor store.

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And you can decide which crime you think the person

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was going to. I mean, that's silly to me, But

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then the other I don't want to I still have

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a question about the appellate process. But the other big

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story that first brought you our attention again was Jack

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Smith introducing a new set of indictments against Trump for

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election interference. And I'm it just took my breath away.

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I mean, I thought even this Justice Department would at

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this point say it's too late based on their rules.

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I know there's some ambiguity about whether it's a sixty

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day deadline or a ninety day deadline ahead of the election,

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that you do not bring a case against somebody who's

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up in an election or a political figure. But they've

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gone ahead and done this here, and I'm simply it

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takes my breath away that they would do this. It

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seems politically reckless, but then also the legal grounds. I

404
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haven't quite figured out the legal grounds yet, So why

405
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don't you comment or say your own thoughts on what's

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going on there and whether I'm right that it's politically

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reckless or legally dubious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Steve, I'm a pretty strong critic of Smith, but

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in this particular, I think he's getting a bad rap.

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Speaker 6: So let me explain why.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, so we all know the Supreme Court didn't

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throw out the election interference case in the immunity decision, right.

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What they said is that Judge Chuckkin, who was the

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presiding judge Obama appointee in Washington, was supposed to get

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input from the parties and do an exacting examination of

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the indictment in order to determine which acts are official

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presidential acts that would be amenable of an immunity claim

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and which conduct that's alleged in the indictment is private

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and could be grisk for a criminal prosecution. So she

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wanted to have Smith weigh in on that issue and

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originally directed him to do so on August ninth, he

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asked for a three week delay, and the interesting reason

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why he asks for a three week delay is this

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is a dilemma for the Justice Department. Ordinarily, the Justice

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Department's job is to defend the executive branch. So the

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immunity ruling by the Supreme Court is a godsend to

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doj because in the future they will be able to

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use it to very expansively argue that presidents have immunity.

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Smith's case cuts against that. So anything that Smith does

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to try to argue that the presumption of immunity can

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be overcome in his case creates potentially a precedent that's

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going to hurt the Justice Department in the future. And

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therefore it's not just a matter of the Trump prosecution.

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Everybody in the Justice Department needs to get on board

435
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about what they think this decision means, which is why

436
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he has for the delay. Obviously, August thirtieth is today.

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This would have been the day that Smith had to file.

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So if Smith had simply done what Chuckkins said, he

439
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,799
would have been providing this week his vision of what

440
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the case is going to look like. That is what

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things can still be prosecuted and what things Trump has

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immunity for. Instead, what he did was what I would

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have done, which is I don't want to consult with

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the court and the defense about what the case looks like.

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And the one advantage I have as a prosecutor is

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I can rewrite the indictment.

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Speaker 6: And that's what he did.

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Speaker 2: But all he did in rewriting the indictment is strip

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out the allegations that the Supreme Court said he can't

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run with, which is mainly Trump's control over the Justice Department,

451
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and to the extent that that piece of the indictment

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further the schemes that are alleged. So the four crimes

453
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that are in the new indictment are exactly the same

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as the original indictment.

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Speaker 6: And the only thing he's done.

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Speaker 2: Is strip out the stuff the Supreme Court told him

457
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I had to be stripped out. But whether he had

458
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done this by making a submission on Friday or done

459
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it by filing a superseding indictment on Tuesday, it's the

460
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same thing one way or the other.

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Speaker 5: So Andy in the bragcase, it was assumed before the

462
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Supreme Court weighed in on the immunity question, once Trump

463
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had been found guilty, that there would be a sentencing,

464
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and it was possible that Trump could go to jail

465
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while he was running for president, and the question got

466
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a bit scrambled, partly because of the immunity case and

467
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then a few other legal developments. So my question is,

468
00:25:44,599 --> 00:25:50,279
given the changes that you described in your first answer,

469
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what is most likely to happen next in the brag case?

470
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And if there's no way of telling what's most likely,

471
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what are the options in the next, say, six months

472
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to a year.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, Charlie, I think Bragg wanted to press ahead

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with the sentencing because he knows that Trump is not

475
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actually going to prison, and I think kind of almost perversely,

476
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that incentivizes him to give Trump an even more stiff

477
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sentence than he would otherwise have given him, because what's

478
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going to happen here. This is a non violent crime.

479
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,000
Trump is not going It's not like he's going to

480
00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:29,680
get carted off to rikers the second that march On

481
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,880
imposted sentence. But what they've always wanted out of this

482
00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:35,599
case was for the Democrats to be able to say

483
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,200
he's a convicted felon facing a stiff prison sentence in

484
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,160
the run up to the election, and they would have

485
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,000
that the problem legally that they now have, and this

486
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:51,359
is a I think reckless and certainly gratuitous presentation of

487
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:58,079
the case by Bragg. They didn't need the Trump presidential

488
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,200
acts as evidence in the trial. They could easily have

489
00:27:01,319 --> 00:27:03,519
proved up what was charged to the indictment by just

490
00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:07,319
sticking with employees of the Trump organization and the testimony

491
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,480
of Colin and called it a day. Instead, what they

492
00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:15,480
did was they called two of Trump's White House staffers

493
00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:19,960
to testify about his customary with the way he ran

494
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,759
the White House, you know, the way he conducted himself

495
00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:25,720
as president, etc. Bragg is now in the position of

496
00:27:25,759 --> 00:27:28,519
trying to argue that that was just harmless error, but

497
00:27:28,599 --> 00:27:34,839
when his prosecutors summed up to the jury, they described

498
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,400
it as devastating proof of kilt. So he's got a

499
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,559
tough time saying it was harmless error at this point.

500
00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:42,759
The other thing he did that I think was pretty

501
00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:47,880
outrageous was he had Cohen testify that Trump had told

502
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,319
him that Jeff Sessions would make the Federal Election Commission

503
00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:59,039
investigation of the non disclosure agreements go away. There's no

504
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,559
corrobore evidence that that happened, but it's important evidence, even

505
00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:07,720
though it was fleeting, because Bragg didn't make it prove

506
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,440
anything that would indicate to anyone that Trump was even

507
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:16,039
thinking about federal election law, much less that he was

508
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,000
willful beyond a reasonable doubt in conspiring to violate it.

509
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,519
Speaker 6: Right, So this was all stuff that Bragg threw.

510
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 2: Into the case that he didn't need and didn't have

511
00:28:26,759 --> 00:28:29,480
any business in the case. And at the same time,

512
00:28:29,559 --> 00:28:33,119
they proved that they knew that the Supreme Court was

513
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:38,319
considering immunity and that the oral argument had happened, and

514
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,160
during the oral argument a number of the justices had

515
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,920
seemed to be sympathetic to Trump's position. Yet they kept

516
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,200
insisting to Brag that there was no presidential immunity and

517
00:28:49,279 --> 00:28:53,680
certainly no derivative evidentiary privilege not to have proof of

518
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:59,000
presidential acts come into a criminal trial. So Bragg understands

519
00:28:59,039 --> 00:29:02,359
now that he's stuck with having made this decision. There

520
00:29:02,599 --> 00:29:05,839
was proof of presidential acts that came into the trial,

521
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,880
which if they had just waited until the Supreme Court

522
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,680
ruled as Trump's lawyers asked them to, the judge would

523
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,759
have known, you can't let that evidence into the case.

524
00:29:15,799 --> 00:29:18,200
But he let it into the case. So that gives

525
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,960
Trump a strong immunity claim. Now Trump is not going

526
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,200
to win his ultimate claim, Trump is saying that the

527
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:28,880
indictment should get dismissed. I think ultimately what the courts

528
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,759
will probably decide here is that the guilty verdicts need

529
00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:36,279
to be vacated, and if Bragg wants to try him

530
00:29:36,319 --> 00:29:38,519
again at some point, he can try him again.

531
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 6: I don't think they're going to throw out the.

532
00:29:40,799 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: Case on a ruling that couldn't be that would end

533
00:29:46,039 --> 00:29:47,079
the case completely.

534
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 6: It'll be up to brag whether he wants to bring

535
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,440
it again. That's what I think will happen.

536
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 2: But this is going to take a long time to

537
00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:56,160
play out because it seems to me that merch On

538
00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:59,759
being merch On, and we've seen the way he's performed

539
00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:02,079
the whole time he's had this case. He's going to

540
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,240
rule against Trump on the immunity, and then I think

541
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,640
Trump is entitled if that, If that's the state of play,

542
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,319
Trump is entitled to go to the appellate division first,

543
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,759
and before brad can before merchand consentence him. He should

544
00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:21,000
be able to go to the appellate division and litigate

545
00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:24,960
the immunity because immunity is supposed to be decided first.

546
00:30:25,319 --> 00:30:29,680
What Trump is trying to do now is circumvent the

547
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,599
process of going through the New York appellate courts and

548
00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:36,079
just get the case brought back to federal court again,

549
00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:40,200
and have at the very least have a federal judge

550
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:46,240
tell merch On he can't impose sentence until immunity is litigated.

551
00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 6: To the ground.

552
00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: I think Trump would rather if he could litigate the

553
00:30:50,759 --> 00:30:54,000
immunity in federal court rather than in the New York courts.

554
00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:57,359
But at a minimum, and his immediate objective here is

555
00:30:57,359 --> 00:30:58,960
to get the sentencing postpone.

556
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,279
Speaker 1: Well, well, now, Andy, it quick jurisdictional question here, sort

557
00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:05,119
of law one on one. It's usually not simple to

558
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,960
jump from state to federal court. The federal courts don't

559
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,079
like to admit you until you've exhausted all the state

560
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,799
courts and so forth. So But on the other hand,

561
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,319
I can I mean on political grounds. I can see

562
00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:19,079
some federal judge saying, hey, wait a minute, this is

563
00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:23,000
out of hand. Maybe one way of asking is this

564
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,119
is judge merch On's I think pretty obvious bias is

565
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,720
that sufficient grounds legal grounds for a federal judge to

566
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,759
leap frog of state courts and search jurisdiction.

567
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: Not in and of itself, but and there's always a

568
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,240
butt when you have me on, right, and there's a

569
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:44,279
butt to the butt. So if it was just if

570
00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:47,599
the only claim here was biased by merch on, that

571
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,960
would be one of the bundle of things that happens

572
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,400
in a criminal case that all goes up on appeal together.

573
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,319
Speaker 6: Right, There are a handful.

574
00:31:55,759 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: Of issues in criminal law that have to be decided

575
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,440
before anything else happens in the case because they go

576
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:07,640
to the legitimacy of the preceding itself. In other words,

577
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:13,720
if you have immunity, the constitutional offense is not convicting you,

578
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,759
it's trying you in the first place.

579
00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 6: You have a right not to be tried. Right, So

580
00:32:18,599 --> 00:32:19,880
there's a handful of these issues.

581
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: Immunity and double jeopardy are the ones that come immediately

582
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,839
to mind. Where those actually are issues that you are

583
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,559
allowed to have what's called an interlocatory appeal on. That is,

584
00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:33,559
you don't have to wait till the end of the

585
00:32:33,599 --> 00:32:34,920
proceedings in the trial court.

586
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 6: You get to appeal those immediately.

587
00:32:37,119 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 2: So because for two reasons, Steve, One because this is

588
00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:45,960
an immunity issue, and two because it's a question of

589
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:54,119
a state prosecuting a federal official. Arguably in connection with

590
00:32:54,759 --> 00:32:59,559
activities in furtherance of his federal responsibilities.

591
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:00,519
Speaker 6: I think got it.

592
00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: Brad should have been able to obviate the second one

593
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,200
by saying, look, I'm not proving any of his federal activities.

594
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,759
Speaker 6: This is strictly private. But he went there. He shouldn't

595
00:33:09,759 --> 00:33:10,279
have gone there.

596
00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: And on that Congress has had, i think since sometime

597
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,680
in the nineteenth century, a removal statute on the books

598
00:33:20,039 --> 00:33:23,599
that is pretty forgiving that allows federal if a federal

599
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,680
official is charged with a state crime and the federal

600
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,480
official can argue that he's being prosecuted for the furtherance

601
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,920
of his federal duties or and this is usually end

602
00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:40,440
actually that he has a federal defense to the charge,

603
00:33:40,839 --> 00:33:43,160
that case is supposed to be removed out of state

604
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,319
court and brought into federal court.

605
00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:47,799
Speaker 1: You know, this reminds me. I was gonna I'm going

606
00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:49,960
to ask you a political question a minute, but this

607
00:33:50,039 --> 00:33:51,559
is starting to remind me a little bit of an

608
00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:55,000
obscure nineteenth century case called Kirby versus New York. Do

609
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,839
you want any chance to know that Andy case? It

610
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,279
was where some local Kentucky officials, local Kentucky sheriff arrested

611
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,160
a person from a male carrying barge for murder, right,

612
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,840
and as I'm look, I don't remember the exact details,

613
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,079
but the claim was made that this was the state

614
00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:16,840
interfering with the delivery of the lawyer. The person's lawyer argued,

615
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,960
there's a state interfering with the delivery of the mails.

616
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,559
That's illegal and the constitution you have to dismiss the

617
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:24,199
murder claim and put the sheriff on trialph Anyway, an

618
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:26,519
absurd case, and the Supreme Court saw right through it

619
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:28,840
right away. It's a fun one to bring up with students,

620
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,519
But I want to ask you a political question.

621
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 6: Can I just can I just say?

622
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:37,079
Speaker 2: Can I just say, Steve, there's analogous modern cases where

623
00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:39,559
you know, you have a lot of these states think

624
00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:44,599
that they're safe havens from the immigration laws. Right, So

625
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,440
the thear always is that if the if the federal

626
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,079
officials go in and try to arrest somebody or do

627
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:52,519
a search and further into the immigration laws, that the

628
00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:56,159
state will arrest the federal officials. That kind of stuff

629
00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:58,000
is a concern all the time.

630
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,119
Speaker 3: Hi, this is and colder. You can hear me every

631
00:35:02,159 --> 00:35:04,840
Monday on Ricochet with the five things you need to

632
00:35:05,119 --> 00:35:08,000
know this week, and on Fridays, I'll give you the

633
00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:10,079
big stories of the week that you may have missed.

634
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,360
Look for it every Monday and Friday on Ricochet or

635
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,119
wherever you get your podcast.

636
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,559
Speaker 6: Ricochet Join the conversation.

637
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,519
Speaker 3: If I may just jump in here for a second.

638
00:35:21,519 --> 00:35:24,159
I was attempting to find out exactly what case this was,

639
00:35:24,199 --> 00:35:26,559
and so I typed Kirby Versus into my search bar

640
00:35:27,199 --> 00:35:30,840
and it auto populated completed with Kirby versus Goku, Kirby

641
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:36,719
versus Jigglypuff versus Dice, Kirby versus Sonic, Kirby versus Mennonite,

642
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,760
Kirby versus Mario, and Kirby versus Superman. So I take

643
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:47,000
it that there is a game character named Kirby out there, Sitch, Yeah, right,

644
00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:49,000
that's what I'm getting very nation.

645
00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: It might be Usb Kirby. I might have had it backwards,

646
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,519
and so I screwed everything up.

647
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 6: It's a lot of it. There's a lot of United

648
00:35:56,039 --> 00:35:56,800
States cases.

649
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 3: So you know, good luck, right.

650
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,199
Speaker 1: Political question, I mean, you know, what was being thought

651
00:36:03,199 --> 00:36:05,119
for the last year and seemed to be borne out

652
00:36:05,119 --> 00:36:07,559
by events, was every one of these indictments of Trump

653
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,320
strengthened him, at least with Republican voters in the Republican base.

654
00:36:12,119 --> 00:36:15,000
And everyone's been saying for months, well, gosh, if Merchon

655
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,199
puts him in an orange jumpsuit and marches him off

656
00:36:18,199 --> 00:36:21,519
to Rikers, Trump's gonna win in a landslide. And I

657
00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:23,559
still kind of think that. On the other hand, everything

658
00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:26,719
has suddenly changed here. In the last sixty days, you had,

659
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,360
you know, Biden was replaced by Harris. Harris is running

660
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,199
on joy. The latest poll show her pulling ahead by

661
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,360
you know, credible polsters. And suddenly I'm questioning everything I

662
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,639
thought I knew about American politics. Not everything, but I'm

663
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:46,360
questioning whether it's still true that the legal harassment of

664
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,320
Trump helps him or not. I can actually see that

665
00:36:49,519 --> 00:36:51,679
maybe this is good. In other words, voters are going

666
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,400
to say, well, Harris's untested, we know what she thinks,

667
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,840
but yeah, Trump is this convicted felon, And I'm worried.

668
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,119
Now that's just it just might work. What do you think?

669
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 2: Well, I think I've all along thought that this was

670
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:11,039
a conspiracy, a brilliant one by Democrats. Are pal Jonah

671
00:37:11,199 --> 00:37:16,480
Goldberg has argued that I've been a little bit too

672
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,800
conspiracy minded about this, but I don't think it's a

673
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,400
complicated conspiracy. And I think it's when they ran in

674
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,960
twenty twenty and twenty twenty two as well, and that

675
00:37:25,079 --> 00:37:29,679
is that the indictments at the beginning, when the target

676
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,079
audience was the Republican base, rallied the base to Trump,

677
00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:37,800
and it made it impossible for what I thought would

678
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,599
have been a more electable candidate like a DeSantis like

679
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:47,639
Haley to get traction with Republican voters. The Democrats wanted

680
00:37:47,639 --> 00:37:51,360
to run against Trump, but they always thought Steve that

681
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,360
phase two of Law Fair was going to be in

682
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,480
the run up to the election. They were finally going

683
00:37:58,519 --> 00:38:00,400
to get their trials, and they thought they were going

684
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,760
to get two or three of them and dump out

685
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,119
all the bad evidence in the form of riveting testimony

686
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,360
that the press was going to cover in every gory detail.

687
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,920
And then at that point, the target audience is the

688
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,239
voter the electorate at large rather than the Republican base.

689
00:38:18,599 --> 00:38:23,119
In the electorate at large, Trump is much less popular,

690
00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:24,960
I think, you know, I think it's fair to argue

691
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,440
that he's unpopular with about fifty five percent of the country.

692
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,199
So I think that was the target audience. It was

693
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,840
probably a good strategy, and to me, I don't. I

694
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,000
think Charlie probably agrees with me on this, but I'll

695
00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:43,159
let him obviously speak for himself. I think that what's

696
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,719
left on the table now are kind of low information

697
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,840
voters if you haven't made up your mind about what

698
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,039
you think about this, and while we look at this

699
00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:57,239
stuff very closely, I think all those voters are going

700
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,480
to hear is that Trump got convicted of felonies. They're

701
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,719
not going to look into it the same way that

702
00:39:02,199 --> 00:39:05,119
we have. And I just don't think this can help

703
00:39:05,159 --> 00:39:08,440
Trump at this point with those voters. I think there's

704
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,039
a way that you can, like people who were informed,

705
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,920
could look at Bragg's case and go just like a

706
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,480
lot of you know, progressive commentators did. And I don't

707
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,320
think Democrats are happy that the Bragg case went first,

708
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,679
because I think the brag case tainted law there as

709
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,400
an enterprise, whereas if they had gone, say with the

710
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:34,639
Florida case, where there was a pretty strong obstruction element

711
00:39:34,679 --> 00:39:37,360
to it against Trump, they would have had a much

712
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,639
better time with this than Bragg's case. Which is even

713
00:39:40,679 --> 00:39:44,559
people on the on the left, at least the credible

714
00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:49,159
ones diminute a small pool small pool, but they think

715
00:39:49,159 --> 00:39:51,639
it's you know, they think it's a joke.

716
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 5: I think that low information point goes both ways, although

717
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,440
I do think it probably hurts him more than helps.

718
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,960
But if you're told it's a low information voter by

719
00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:04,559
Trump or sarrogates that the system has gone after him

720
00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:06,360
and you don't know any of the details, then you

721
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,119
perhaps believe that. And then if you're told on the

722
00:40:10,119 --> 00:40:12,239
other side, why he's a convicted fell and you don't

723
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,039
know any of the details, then you believe that. So

724
00:40:15,079 --> 00:40:16,760
the question is who gets to them first?

725
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 6: I guess, well, that's a proble.

726
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: I always say that low information voters is one of

727
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:30,480
those you know, threewere euphemism for morons? How much I mean,

728
00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:32,639
I always hate these debates A little rant here. I

729
00:40:32,639 --> 00:40:36,119
always hate these debates with undecided voters are in town

730
00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:38,480
hall format with three weeks to go before an election.

731
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,639
Who can be undecided with three weeks to go in

732
00:40:40,679 --> 00:40:43,519
the presidential race? Well morons, that's and that's why those

733
00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:46,360
debates so often are moronic, and why it always this

734
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,800
favors Republicans. It seems to me, yeah.

735
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, well you don't want morons.

736
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 2: And I thought about this a lot when we I

737
00:40:53,039 --> 00:40:57,159
tried the blind shake back in the nineties, and one

738
00:40:57,199 --> 00:41:01,280
of the things that the defense wanted was, like, anybody

739
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,000
who had heard about the World Trade Center bombing or

740
00:41:04,039 --> 00:41:06,599
some other notorious things that we had shouldn't be on

741
00:41:06,679 --> 00:41:09,199
the case because they've already formed. And I said, like,

742
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:11,880
anybody who hasn't heard about this has been living under

743
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,280
a rock. That's not somebody that you want as ature

744
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:16,039
in a case.

745
00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 6: You know, right right.

746
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 3: Before we go, and we've plenty of time here. I'm

747
00:41:24,039 --> 00:41:25,840
not trying to hasten you off the broom or a hook,

748
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,280
but to change the subject. Mark Zuckerberg re had a

749
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:34,320
letter where he said, you know what, yeah, yeah, they

750
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,280
did ask us to take some stuff down. And it's

751
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,920
interesting that some of the things that the Biden Harris,

752
00:41:40,199 --> 00:41:43,280
I'm sorry, there I go tethering again. Administration I wanted

753
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,119
to get rid of was a satire and humor when

754
00:41:47,119 --> 00:41:48,719
it came to things like COVID and the virus in

755
00:41:49,159 --> 00:41:53,400
the vaccine and the rest of it. What are we

756
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,920
to make of this? And isn't a little late for

757
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,760
this information to be coming out? Or have we all

758
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,800
just decided, as we did, that the laptop was faked,

759
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,920
that the Twitter files and the Facebook files that they

760
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,679
were coming out with, that's all settled and factored in

761
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:10,920
and baked in. Isn't it something that somebody would want

762
00:42:11,079 --> 00:42:14,719
that a canny campaign would want to make a point of.

763
00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:17,920
I mean, when you talk about authoritarianism, which we're supposed

764
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,800
to be very worried about because it's going to destroy

765
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,480
our democracy, this seems kind of authority. This seems kind

766
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,280
of fashy to me, to use their terms.

767
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say two things about it. First, it would

768
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:34,239
have been nice to have Zuckerberg's testimony in the case

769
00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:37,519
that the Supreme Court decided at the end of the term.

770
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,400
You know, remember they threw out that they threw out

771
00:42:41,599 --> 00:42:45,599
this challenge because they said that the States and the

772
00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:50,559
social media users whose communications or postings had been suppressed,

773
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,760
that they didn't have standing. And the big problem with

774
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,679
the case was there was a tenuous connection. This is

775
00:42:58,679 --> 00:43:01,920
always a problem when you're you're going after the third

776
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,519
party actors. Right, their communications were suppressed directly by the

777
00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:09,039
social media platforms. But what they were saying was that

778
00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:12,480
the government officials were the ones who were responsible when

779
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,400
you have a case like that, you have to show

780
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,880
a tight connection between the actions of the third party,

781
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:23,480
and you know, hear the suppression And what Justice Barrett

782
00:43:23,519 --> 00:43:26,400
said in her majority opinion was that the case was

783
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,440
poorly pled by the plainers, that the lower courts had

784
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,480
just gotten some stuff flatly wrong in their analysis of

785
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,280
the record, and that the claims were too attenuated. Now,

786
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,679
you know, Justice Alito had a pretty good pushback on that,

787
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,559
but a lot of what Barrett said about the standing

788
00:43:44,639 --> 00:43:45,599
was very persuasive.

789
00:43:46,079 --> 00:43:48,679
Speaker 6: It would have been nice to have Zuckerberg's testimony.

790
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 2: Zuckerberg's testimony could have helped them on the causation part

791
00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:55,840
of this. So, you know, I think to the extent

792
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,159
people think that the Supreme Court has now said you

793
00:43:58,159 --> 00:43:59,880
can't bring a case like that, that's not what they

794
00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:01,679
said that. What they said was that this one was

795
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,159
poorly played and that you have to show a better

796
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,039
chain of evidence. The more important thing, I think, and

797
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,480
this really goes to the Hunter Biden story, and this

798
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:18,519
should be a major major scandal. The Hunter Biden laptop

799
00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:23,599
stuff that got suppressed happened in October of twenty twenty,

800
00:44:23,679 --> 00:44:27,760
in the run up to the election. The FBI got

801
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:34,039
Hunter's laptop in December of twenty nineteen. They had it

802
00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:38,719
for nearly eleven months when they were going to the

803
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,840
social media companies and telling them watch out for that,

804
00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:44,079
you know, Russian disinformation.

805
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,559
Speaker 6: There could be Russian disinformation.

806
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,199
Speaker 2: About the Biden family and about Hunter. And I think

807
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,119
if you I tried to do this in a piece

808
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:58,679
at NR this week, if you trace the chrinology of

809
00:44:58,679 --> 00:45:03,119
what happened. The the FBI had Hunter's laptop, knew it was,

810
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,360
they had subjected it to forensic testing, They knew that

811
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,199
it was authentic. There was no reason to think it

812
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:17,840
wasn't authentic. But what happened was in twenty twenty, the

813
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:24,360
two Republican senators, Chuck Grassley and Ron Johnson are investigating

814
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:30,320
the Biden influence pedling scheme and they're getting all kinds

815
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,440
of evidence about it, mainly financial records. That was really

816
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,320
what the House built its investigation on the scut work

817
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,679
that Johnson and Grassley had done. And they're collecting all

818
00:45:40,679 --> 00:45:44,159
these bank records and suspicious transaction reports from the banks

819
00:45:44,199 --> 00:45:45,960
and all this other stuff that show that there's a

820
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,400
lot of smoke here at the very least, and the

821
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:54,679
Democrats in Congress were very concerned about that. So top

822
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,679
Democrats in the House and then also in the Senate,

823
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:03,440
acting together, ask their pals at the FBI, in particular

824
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,280
a guy named Tim Thiebo, who was running the Washington

825
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:12,079
Field office and was later forced into early retirement over

826
00:46:12,119 --> 00:46:18,159
his anti Republican, anti conservative social media postings. They call

827
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:23,559
up THEBO, the Democrats do, and they say, we would

828
00:46:23,679 --> 00:46:29,199
like a briefing from you on Russian disinformation and interference

829
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:34,800
in our elections. And THEBO assigns to it a guy

830
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,599
named Auton, who we know as the handler for the

831
00:46:39,639 --> 00:46:43,000
guy who provided the information for the Steele dossier.

832
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,119
Speaker 6: So that's where he's coming from.

833
00:46:45,199 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 2: He's under investigation by the Bureau for his participation in

834
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,719
the misrepresentations that were made to the Pisa Court in

835
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,719
connection with the Russia Gate stuff, and yet he gets

836
00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:00,119
brought in to do an analysis of Russian disinformation as

837
00:47:00,159 --> 00:47:03,880
it affects as it may affect the election. So what

838
00:47:04,039 --> 00:47:07,320
Grassley says in a letter is we never asked for

839
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:11,360
a briefing, and this stuff wasn't Russian disinformation.

840
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:12,679
Speaker 6: These were bank records.

841
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:14,679
Speaker 2: There was no reason to think any of this stuff

842
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,440
was coming from the Kremlin. And as I've pointed out

843
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,199
a number of times, the fact that something even if

844
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:27,320
it is disinformation or information that's provided by the Russians,

845
00:47:27,519 --> 00:47:29,039
that doesn't make it inaccurate.

846
00:47:29,159 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 6: Sometimes the Russians.

847
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 2: Actually leaked through information if they think it could put

848
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,760
somebody in a bad light. So the whole thing was

849
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:42,159
complete bs. But the Democrats use the fact that the

850
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:48,719
FBI collaborated with them in doing a writing an analysis

851
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,159
up that talked about Russian interference in the election and

852
00:47:53,159 --> 00:47:57,480
did it particularly in the context of Biden and Ukraine.

853
00:47:57,599 --> 00:47:59,840
And then what the Democrats did was they began to

854
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,000
that to the Washington Post and all the usual suspects,

855
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:08,679
and wella, we have a you know, a gaslight situation

856
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:13,480
where they've created this story that this is all Russian disinformation.

857
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,880
And at roughly the same time when all this is

858
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,880
going on, we now know that Anthony Blincoln, who was

859
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:27,239
then a Biden campaign official, is working with Mike Morell

860
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:32,519
and these other Clapper and Brennan and these former Obama

861
00:48:34,599 --> 00:48:39,079
intelligence officials, you know, national security officials, and they crank

862
00:48:39,119 --> 00:48:42,599
out the letter that's fifty one of them sign off

863
00:48:42,599 --> 00:48:46,440
on saying that we're not saying that we have any

864
00:48:46,519 --> 00:48:49,039
of the inside facts here, but this sure looks like

865
00:48:49,119 --> 00:48:53,280
Russian disinformation, which Biden then a couple of days later

866
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,719
when they have the debate with Trump, like I think

867
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,599
it was the last of the debates between Trump and Biden,

868
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:04,280
when Trump raised the Biden evidence, Biden used the letter

869
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,800
from the fifty one officials saying that it was Russian disinformation,

870
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,760
like conclusively saying four former CIA directors have said this

871
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:17,559
is Russian disinformation. So to me, the big issue here

872
00:49:18,079 --> 00:49:23,480
is not just what Zuckerberg said, which is remarkable on

873
00:49:23,559 --> 00:49:26,679
its face, but if you trace what happened here, this

874
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:30,920
is an elaborate fraud conspiracy, and if it had been pulled,

875
00:49:31,119 --> 00:49:33,400
if Republicans had even tried to pull it off, it

876
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:34,960
would be the scandal of the century.

877
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:36,119
Speaker 6: Now, I think.

878
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,159
Speaker 2: It's basically being dismissed as the old news. Maybe it's

879
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:43,719
because the Trump campaign's not competent enough to make a

880
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,559
big to do with this. Maybe it's because the media

881
00:49:46,639 --> 00:49:48,280
just won't let it be a story. But I think

882
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,559
that's one of the most scandless things I've ever seen.

883
00:49:51,159 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 3: I agree, if you have a laptop that has videos

884
00:49:54,119 --> 00:49:58,119
of an own drug addict chopping up some cocaon a mirror.

885
00:49:58,599 --> 00:50:02,519
Ockham's razor says, that's Hunter's a razor. Andy. It's kind

886
00:50:02,519 --> 00:50:04,480
a pleasure. You're talking to you as usual. We learn

887
00:50:04,559 --> 00:50:06,719
so much, and we'll talk to you again down the

888
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,119
road again when something legal that we don't like or

889
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:14,639
is annoying or frightening happens. So I have a good liberty, will.

890
00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:16,639
Speaker 6: Have a great, weaken great weekend.

891
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 3: Before we go. And we got a couple of other things.

892
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,519
And yes, that's the second time I've said before we go.

893
00:50:23,599 --> 00:50:25,679
It's almost like I got to be somewhere. I don't

894
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:27,760
you know. I got a lunch, I got the gym.

895
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,840
We got a nice weekend ahead of me, three days

896
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,599
in which the wife will put me to doing various

897
00:50:31,599 --> 00:50:34,280
things around the house. She's decided that there should be

898
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,559
more stones in the front yard. We got three big

899
00:50:36,599 --> 00:50:39,800
stones last week, and then she cogitated a while and

900
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,880
sort of study them the way an artist does when

901
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,440
he steps back from his canvas to see how it's working.

902
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,679
She's decided that we need more geological formations in there,

903
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,039
which is my lot in life to haul stones. If

904
00:50:53,079 --> 00:50:55,360
I was the sort of person who enjoyed gaming on

905
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,800
the Internet, and I do. And if I was the

906
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,199
sort of person who also did things like fantasy football,

907
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,320
and I don't, i'd be right up there with Ricochet's

908
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,480
new fantasy football league. Luckily, Charlie Cook is a great

909
00:51:06,519 --> 00:51:10,079
fan of football and as a guy, can tell us

910
00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:12,280
what it's all about and encourage people to sign up

911
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:13,400
and play. Right.

912
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the exact details of this and how

913
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,480
it's going to be executed still need working out, and

914
00:51:20,519 --> 00:51:23,239
we'll be very soon. But what is more important is

915
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,000
who wants to do it. If you want to do

916
00:51:26,039 --> 00:51:28,199
it and you're a member at Ricochet, and there do

917
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:29,559
seem to be a whole bunch of people, I just

918
00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:31,440
don't want anyonet to be left out. This is why

919
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,880
we've mentioned it a couple of times and we pinned

920
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:39,159
it on Ricochet and we will soon be sending out

921
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,599
messages subliminally to all Ricochet members just to say football, football, football, football,

922
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,239
If you want in say so. There's a little logo

923
00:51:48,639 --> 00:51:51,000
icon graphic on the right hand side of the site

924
00:51:51,039 --> 00:51:53,599
at the moment, which has a football picture and says

925
00:51:53,679 --> 00:51:56,760
Ricochet Fantasy Football and if you are interested, click it

926
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:03,039
and register your interest. And the details will be forthcoming

927
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:04,400
this week.

928
00:52:05,159 --> 00:52:07,519
Speaker 3: And if you're thinking, what exactly is a center right

929
00:52:07,519 --> 00:52:10,960
political side doing talking about football and fantasy football, it's

930
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,679
because Ricochet is so much more than just chattering upon politics.

931
00:52:13,679 --> 00:52:16,039
If you go to the member feed, which does cost

932
00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:18,519
a little bit, yeah, not a lot, but it's worth it,

933
00:52:18,639 --> 00:52:20,599
you will find mean the sites that are free, they're

934
00:52:20,599 --> 00:52:25,400
worth every penny Ricochet. We're talking old time radio, new

935
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,000
time music, meme dumbs, literature, fiction also, got means just

936
00:52:29,199 --> 00:52:30,960
there's so much going on in the member feed, you

937
00:52:31,039 --> 00:52:32,960
ought to check it out. One of the things we've

938
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,440
been talking about though, in the member is this question

939
00:52:36,519 --> 00:52:39,440
that's vexing me. And I'll end with this. That's the

940
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:43,079
third time I mentioned we're ending. It's anagging question. I

941
00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:45,880
know it probably is ridiculous to bring it up, but

942
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:47,519
I'm gonna ask you guys and give you both a

943
00:52:47,519 --> 00:52:52,440
shot at this. Who's running the country right now?

944
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:58,679
Speaker 1: You can tell by our silence we have no idea

945
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:03,519
who's running the country right serious question. I worry that

946
00:53:03,599 --> 00:53:07,840
it's some intern, or somewhat more seriously, that it's the

947
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,400
chief of staff whose name I don't even remember right now,

948
00:53:10,519 --> 00:53:13,840
or that Susan Rice has been the shadow president from

949
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,360
perhaps the very beginning. I have no idea, but I

950
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,559
should hope we find out someday. It would be nice to.

951
00:53:18,519 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 3: Know, you know.

952
00:53:20,639 --> 00:53:25,559
Speaker 5: I was asked this a lot before Joe Biden disappeared

953
00:53:25,559 --> 00:53:30,000
from public view, when he seemed seen island.

954
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 6: Indolent.

955
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,599
Speaker 5: I was asked who was running the country, And usually

956
00:53:35,599 --> 00:53:37,920
the question came in connection with a theory that the

957
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,559
person asking me had you had a particular figure in mind.

958
00:53:41,679 --> 00:53:46,360
Is it Barack Obama? Is it Susan Rice? And my

959
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,760
answer then is the same as it is now, which is,

960
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,400
if you understand how the left works, the answer to

961
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:58,159
the question is the progressive blob. The progressive blob is

962
00:53:58,199 --> 00:54:03,920
running the country. They are not reliant upon a president

963
00:54:04,079 --> 00:54:07,519
in the way that the Constitution envisions a president, which

964
00:54:07,559 --> 00:54:11,000
is a person who has control over the executive branch,

965
00:54:11,079 --> 00:54:14,400
not over legislation, not over the Supreme Court, but over

966
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,320
the executive branch. This is another reason, incidentally, why they're

967
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:23,840
so horrified by the idea of the executive being able

968
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:29,239
to control all aspects of the executive branch, including these

969
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:33,519
supposedly free floating institutions. The Department of Justice, and the FBI,

970
00:54:33,639 --> 00:54:37,320
the fourth branch of government that we are supposed to have.

971
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,519
We don't have that, but in their estimation, it works

972
00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:43,800
much better if we have that set up. Because the

973
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:48,719
Progressive Blob is this sort of permanent, lumbering, self executing

974
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,719
thing that knows that its basic task in the world

975
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:57,159
is to advance progressive policy in the prospects of progressive politicians.

976
00:54:57,199 --> 00:55:00,880
And they don't need Joe Biden to be active for

977
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,239
that to work. They don't need Kamala Harris to be

978
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,920
able to speak English or have any ideas for that

979
00:55:06,599 --> 00:55:11,039
to work. On the Republican side, because this exists, you

980
00:55:11,119 --> 00:55:13,119
actually do need someone and I'm afraid Trump is not

981
00:55:13,199 --> 00:55:16,719
this person, as the last administration showed. You actually do

982
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,199
need somebody like a desantist in Florida who is full

983
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:23,280
of vigor and ideas and resolve, who is going to

984
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:29,800
through his own sheer force of character, make the executive

985
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,519
branch to do what the elected head of that executive

986
00:55:32,559 --> 00:55:35,199
branch wants. So the answer is the Progressive Blob is

987
00:55:35,199 --> 00:55:38,400
how democratic administrations work, and they're not suffering from the

988
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,440
lack of Joe Biden right now because everything's running on autopilot.

989
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,639
Speaker 1: Can offer you one last observation from a traveler, Believe

990
00:55:46,639 --> 00:55:49,400
it or not. Here in Kubik there is the Monument

991
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,760
to the Unknown Bureaucrat. I am not making that up

992
00:55:53,159 --> 00:55:55,320
and our listeners won't be able to see this, but

993
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:56,960
I'm going to show it to you guys here if

994
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:01,440
I can. Yeah, there it is, and if listen, just

995
00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:04,199
look it up. It's the solid stone block that goes

996
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,440
down about the waste of a bureaucrat, and I think

997
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,199
it couldn't be any more perfect than it is. I

998
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:13,159
encourage listeners to google the Monument to the Unknown Bureaucrat.

999
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,760
It's a perfect, if unintended I think, an ironic a

1000
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,320
description of what Charlie describes, which is the blob that

1001
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:22,480
actually runs the country, that is impervious to outside pressure

1002
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,559
or erosion or lightening strikes, whatever metaphor you want.

1003
00:56:28,519 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 3: That art is a work of staggering genius. I heartily

1004
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,239
endorse it, and I think that it should be put

1005
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,159
up outside of every state capital in this great country

1006
00:56:38,159 --> 00:56:40,760
of ours. Stephen, as long as you're in Reika vicdumuitzevor

1007
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:42,599
go down to the bar when you do and have

1008
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:47,039
a Reika r e Yka it is the best Icelandic vodica.

1009
00:56:47,559 --> 00:56:50,280
I think they filter it through lava rock or something

1010
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,360
like that. You can really taste the lava, but it's

1011
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,480
really good. Charles, I can offer you no advice for

1012
00:56:56,599 --> 00:56:58,840
Florida cocktails except to say that I hope you have

1013
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,800
one on this great week. And of course, as an American,

1014
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,199
you're going to be grilling. I'm going to be grilling.

1015
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:07,719
I don't know what you're going to be doing, Steven

1016
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:09,159
out there when it comes to laborty, but I hope

1017
00:57:09,199 --> 00:57:12,320
somebody can supply with hot dogs, ribs, beef, hamburgers and

1018
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:16,079
the rest of the staples. Happy long weekend and puffing

1019
00:57:16,199 --> 00:57:19,039
and puffing that's right, that's right. If you have some

1020
00:57:19,119 --> 00:57:21,639
puffin thyroid on a toothpick or something like that, I'm

1021
00:57:21,679 --> 00:57:27,360
sure that that's gormand enough. Be lieve you with whatever

1022
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,840
song our producer says, And we thank you for listening

1023
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,119
to us. We enjoin you to give us good reviews

1024
00:57:33,119 --> 00:57:36,960
at Apple iTunes, and we will see everybody in the

1025
00:57:37,159 --> 00:57:41,519
comments where why of course Ricochet dot com Next week, guys,

1026
00:57:41,559 --> 00:57:42,639
have a good weekend.

1027
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:43,559
Speaker 5: All right, Thanks James.

1028
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 1: Next week