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Jump Chumpacasino 23 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:56.679 dot com. 24 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:57.799 Nopead's necessary point. 25 00:00:57.799 --> 00:00:59.200 We're pingited to my eighteen plus terms and. 26 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:00.200 Condition to plus What's for you? 27 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.760 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 28 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:14.879 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 29 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.239 written about them Gaesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 30 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.959 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:30.239 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 32 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:32.879 host journalist and author Dan. 33 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:48.239 Zufanski, Good Evening. Over twenty five people murdered in just 34 00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:51.239 over two and a half years. What was happening in 35 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:54.719 the small coastal town of Santa Cruz between October nineteen 36 00:01:54.799 --> 00:02:00.359 seventy and February nineteen seventy three. John Linley Fraser home 37 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:04.159 invasion murders of the Ota family and Dorothy Cadwalder in 38 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.599 nineteen seventy and the serial murder spreees of Herbert Mullen 39 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:11.199 and Edmund Kemper left tremors in Santa Cruz that can 40 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:16.560 still be felt today. Local law enforcement, victims, families and friends, 41 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:21.680 classmates and acquaintance of the killers, local historians, voices from 42 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:25.120 the past and present, and the killers themselves all come 43 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:28.639 together to tell the horrific stories and explain why Santa 44 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:31.599 Cruz was dubbed the murder Capital of the World in 45 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:34.800 the early seventies. Murder Capital of the World is a 46 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:38.080 primary source history telling the story of Santa Cruz in 47 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:42.159 the early nineteen seventies through quotes and first persons stories. 48 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:45.879 The book that were featuring this evening is Murder Capital 49 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.879 of the World. The Santa Cruz Community looks back at 50 00:02:48.919 --> 00:02:52.759 the John Linley Fraser, Herbert Mullen, and Edmund Kemper murder 51 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:56.960 spreees of the early nineteen seventies with my special guests, 52 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:01.319 journalist and author Emerson Emerson Murray. Welcome to the program, 53 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:06.120 and thank you so much for this interview. Emerson Murray, thank. 54 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:08.520 You so much for having me. I really appreciate it. 55 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:12.719 Thank you so much. First Off, as I mentioned beforehand, 56 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:18.400 a very very impressive package, the entire book and especially 57 00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:22.560 the incredibly astounding photos that you have, which are over 58 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:27.280 three hundred in all in total. Let's start off right 59 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:31.719 away with this, the acknowledgments where you've got this idea 60 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:36.039 and the impetus and the unique format, and how you 61 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:37.039 came to this book. 62 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:41.879 Yeah, so I tell people I've really been working on 63 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:47.280 this book for about thirty years. The whole story itself, 64 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:50.719 Aaron Sanakers has just been in our family since before 65 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:54.120 I was born. One of my father's good friends, a 66 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:58.360 man named Jim Genera, was murdered by Herbert Mullen, just 67 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:00.800 a few months before I was born, actually, And so 68 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:04.319 as we were growing up, and I tell the story 69 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:07.199 in the book, there was always a picture of my 70 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:10.960 dad and Jim hiking on my dad's wall, and it 71 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:13.159 was something that we just always knew. We knew Jim 72 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:15.840 had been murdered by this serial killer, and of course 73 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:17.959 that term wasn't around at that time, but he had 74 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:21.000 been murdered by this man, and it was just something 75 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:25.560 we talked about. And really, that whole time period was 76 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:27.879 sort of in the air in Santa Cruz, you know, 77 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:30.879 in the late seventies and early eighties when I was young, 78 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:34.480 and I can remember my family being at parties and 79 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:38.319 hearing other adults talking about these crimes and about all 80 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:41.040 the things that went down at that time period. So 81 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:45.680 because Santa Cruz was such a small community, it was 82 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:46.120 just there. 83 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:46.839 It was present. 84 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:53.959 Now, you mentioned the film The Lost Boys that was 85 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:58.439 filmed in Santa Cruz under the fictional name of Santa 86 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:04.360 Carlo explained how the relevance and the importance to the 87 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:08.439 story and your book and The Lost Boys know. 88 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:12.199 Yeah, so I think a lot of people actually know 89 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:15.160 Sannaker is just simply from the film The Lost Boys. 90 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:18.360 They know it was filmed here, and when they came 91 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:23.160 and filmed they changed a name. But Fannakers was known 92 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:25.079 as the murder capital of the world at that time. 93 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:27.600 And so in the beginning of the film, as the 94 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.560 protagonist and his mom and his older brother are driving 95 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.959 into town, they passed by this big billboard and it says, 96 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.560 you know, welcome to Santa Carla and all this. And 97 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:38.959 as they passed by, the camera lingers on the sign, 98 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:41.199 and on the back of the sign you can see 99 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:44.079 somebody has scrawled the graffiti murder Capital of the World. 100 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:47.360 So they sort of kept har Moniker. But I always 101 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:50.600 make the joke that in the movie they just they 102 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:54.160 had to deal with a handful of teenage vampires, and 103 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:56.959 we had to deal with an eco terrorist and a 104 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:59.639 serial killer who was killing people for earthquakes, and a 105 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:05.120 pscho sexual killer who was murdering teenage hitchhikers. It was 106 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:07.920 like in the movie they had nothing on us. 107 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:14.839 Yeah, much stranger than fiction. Yeah. Yeah, your book also 108 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:19.680 includes modern quotes and historic quotes, meaning back from the 109 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:24.040 seventies when this occurred, seventies seventy three, but also modern 110 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:28.360 quotes from many people like Herbert Mullen and Edmund Kemper 111 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:37.560 and this Fraser, John Linley Fraser. Let's get to right away. 112 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:41.680 You talk about a headline. You also talk about the 113 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.639 district Attorney Peter Chang in an interview, asked if Santa 114 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:48.160 Cruz was murder capital, and he said, right now, we 115 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:52.360 must be the murder capital. Now you talked about the 116 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:56.639 format that this quotes us. So let's talk about the 117 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:01.759 who is quoted, and let's talk about the first headline 118 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:03.319 that you have in the book, with the Santa Cruz 119 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:06.279 spent in al February thirteen, nineteen seventy three. I guess 120 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:10.439 that really talks about this and really identifies what you're saying, 121 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:14.959 that this recognizes that there's something very, very unusual and 122 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:15.920 murderous going on. 123 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:21.360 Right Yeah, So first let me talk about the newspaper. So, yeah, 124 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:26.279 that was from Tuesday, February thirteenth to nineteen seventy three, 125 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.360 and that was the day that Herbert Mullen murdered his 126 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:33.680 last victim, and he was caught just minutes later, and 127 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:37.040 it sort of encapsulates what the entire book is about. 128 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:39.439 If you look at this newspaper headline along the top, 129 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:42.120 it's says something like crimes three sore is another murder, 130 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:46.079 and then underneath the Santa Cruz Sentinel the banners the 131 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:49.680 senseless slaying of an old man. And then there's another 132 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:52.800 murder that's unrelated to these three killers, about youth held 133 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:55.480 in a capitol at death, about a young man who 134 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.439 killed a woman named Ida Stein and sannikers. And then 135 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:01.199 they're also talking about these bodies that are washing up 136 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:04.399 on the ocean that are found and rape victims being 137 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:07.680 picked up by hitchhikers, who are these hitchhikes, and then 138 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:11.279 another kidnapping case and an article about women hitchhike. It 139 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:14.879 was unbelievable, and this is all from one day. It 140 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:19.240 was just stunning, and it sort of exemplified what I 141 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:21.560 wanted to talk about in the book, and that is, 142 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:25.879 you know, it was absolute overwhelming chaos for law enforcement 143 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:30.240 and for our community at that time. And you said 144 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:34.000 it right. Peter Chang was being interviewed after four boys 145 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:37.279 were murdered by Herbert Mullen, and their bodies were found. 146 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:40.200 He was being interviewed by a San Francisco Examiner reporter 147 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:43.440 and the reporter was, you know, halfway joking around, you 148 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:45.679 must be the murder capital of the world. And Peter 149 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:48.759 Chang said, yeah, this time, we must be the murder capital. 150 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:49.960 And it just stuck. 151 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:54.000 It stuck to us like glue. And you know, our 152 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:57.679 city council, our board of supervisors couldn't stand it. There's 153 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:02.399 there's records I found in there's notes in the official 154 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:06.480 records of the transcripts of our supervisor meetings, and they're 155 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:09.600 railing against this. Oh who gave us this stupid title. 156 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:13.000 It's ridiculous and stupid to quote they use that word. 157 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:18.879 And so but it just stuck. So when I, for myself, 158 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.720 I had read the for using quotes. I had read 159 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:25.840 a book by a man named Rudolph Gray who wrote 160 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.320 a book about the filmmaker Edward and he had used quotes. 161 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:31.320 This is like in the late nineteen eighties or early 162 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.120 nineteen nineties, and I thought, what a great way to 163 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:38.960 tell a very nuanced story. Because Edward was a complicated 164 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:42.559 person and to some people, you know, he was, you know, 165 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:44.759 a wacko, and to some people he was you know, 166 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:48.480 they loved him like a brother. And I thought God 167 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:54.000 for something like this, a true crime story where there's 168 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:58.240 a lot of different stories going on and people are 169 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:02.200 remembering events slightly different. As well as the fact that 170 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:05.559 you know, we'll say Edmund Kemper, he's alone with a 171 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:10.440 victim at night, and what happened to that victim and 172 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:13.320 what he did only he knows, nobody knows. You know, 173 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:17.120 maybe we may have some CSI information from the crime scene, 174 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:22.080 but it really went down the way that he said it. 175 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:26.080 So rather than come in like a heavy handed author 176 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:27.519 and say that this is what happened here, this is 177 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:29.639 what happened here, this is what happened here, I really 178 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:34.039 wanted to get a well rounded picture of everyone's point 179 00:10:34.039 --> 00:10:37.320 of view. And you know, we're talking to the old hippies, 180 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:39.559 we're talking to the old law enforcement, We're talking to 181 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:42.480 everyone to sort of get this picture of what Santa 182 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:44.879 Cruz was like at that time. And I talked to 183 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:48.360 well over one hundred people and I grabbed quotes from 184 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:50.440 every So I think I make a joke in the book, 185 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:52.720 you know, I stole and robbed them from every source 186 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:57.080 I could find, from every newspaper, just trying to get 187 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.320 a picture, you know, what was going on back then. 188 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:01.440 So yeah, we jump around and I put the year 189 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:04.720 there so you can see Edmin Kemper telling his story 190 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:08.559 in the nineteen seventies, right after he got caught. This happened, 191 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:10.720 This happened. And then you can see him again in 192 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:14.039 nineteen ninety one at a parole hearing and his story 193 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:18.039 changes slightly. And then in twenty seventeen again at another 194 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:22.440 parole hearing, and it changes. His story changes drastically. And 195 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:26.080 what did he have to lose and gain all along 196 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:29.159 the way when he's telling these different stories in different ways? 197 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:32.840 And why is this story one way? Well, it may 198 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:38.320 have something to do with his defense attorney just filed 199 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:44.519 the insanity to insanity please, So it's just for me. 200 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:49.200 I found it a great way to tell a story 201 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:50.799 on many many layers. 202 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:56.200 Absolutely, it's very, very very effective. One of the three 203 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:59.440 people featured in this book are John Linley Fraser, Herbert 204 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:04.120 William Mullen, and Edmund Kemper. The third Herbert Willie Mullen 205 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:07.440 and Edmund Kemper. People know the basic stories and we'll 206 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.039 get you to just outline him as you do this, 207 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:12.919 the very basic ones. But very interestingly, this John Linley 208 00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:16.240 Fraser is not as well known yet when you include 209 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.120 very early on in the book the great iconic or 210 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:23.639 infamous half and half photo. So before we talk about 211 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:27.519 John Linley Fraser, tell us about this very dramatic photo 212 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:30.720 that you have of the half and half photo. 213 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:34.320 Yeah, that's like one of the most important pictures, and 214 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:35.879 that like it has to be in the book. 215 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:36.480 Yeah. 216 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:39.799 So John lean Lee Fraser was and his attorneys, the 217 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:44.039 public defenders they had, were just going into the insanity 218 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:46.879 phase of the trial to see if he was insane 219 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:50.000 or not. So John Lelely Fraser shows up to court 220 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:54.240 and he before you know, had long hair and a beard. 221 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:57.720 But he walks into court and half of his head 222 00:12:57.799 --> 00:13:01.000 is shaved from left to right, and his head's bald, 223 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:02.960 and his eyebrows are gone, and his beard and his 224 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.759 mustache are gone, and he just presents this stark image. 225 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:10.200 And of course, you know, the public defender's office and 226 00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:13.879 they're quoted in there saying, what the heck is he doing? 227 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:17.159 You know, like that that doesn't prove anything, and what 228 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.840 kind of law enforcement would give him a race and prisoned. 229 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:24.480 They were in jail to even do this. So, yeah, 230 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:30.200 it's a very stark, stark image. And I can get 231 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.960 into John Linley Fraser. Would you talk about and talk 232 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:34.240 about that story, do you think? 233 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:37.399 Yeah, tell us basically for people don't know, and I 234 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:41.200 wasn't so aware of him at all, tell us basically 235 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:46.039 outline of the murders he was convicted of and committed. 236 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:51.080 Okay, So the Oda family was what they always say, 237 00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:54.919 sort of quote unquote, a prominent family in Santa Cruise, 238 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:57.000 and I always wondered what exactly does that mean? So 239 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:00.559 in doing my research, I learned doctor Oda was an 240 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:04.559 eye surgeon. Not only was he a very accomplished eye surgeon, 241 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:07.279 but he did a lot of surgeries for free, and 242 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:11.840 he helped out people in the community that couldn't necessarily 243 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:16.000 afford some of his work. His wife was Virginia Oda 244 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:19.159 was very involved in the community, and she's actually if 245 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:21.720 you look at all newspapers, she's in the newspaper much 246 00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:26.080 more than he ever was, on functions and volunteer work 247 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:26.799 and things like that. 248 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:27.960 They had four. 249 00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:32.759 Children, two sons and two daughters, and in nineteen seventy 250 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:36.559 his two daughters were away at school. One was in Monterey, California, 251 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:38.559 and one was in a design school in New York. 252 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.759 The two sons were living at home. Doctor Oda also 253 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:46.720 had an assistant named Dorothy Cott Walater, and she really 254 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:48.440 took care of the kids and she was really a 255 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:49.240 part of the family. 256 00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:49.639 Well. 257 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:55.799 John len Ley Frasier was another local. He was from 258 00:14:55.840 --> 00:15:00.480 the Santa CRUs area, and he began having these usions 259 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:05.279 that he was going to start an environmental movement, and 260 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:07.720 how much he was inspired by the Manson killings in 261 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.480 the late nineteen sixties, or even the McDonald killing where 262 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:16.279 the gentleman of Fort Bragg was accused of killing his 263 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.759 wife and kids and he said a hippie cult came 264 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:22.559 in and did it. So I'm not exactly sure how 265 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:24.639 much he was influenced by that, but he was started 266 00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:27.440 to have these delusions that he was going to start 267 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:30.879 an environmental movement where he would go to these rich 268 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:33.799 people's houses, these pigs as he called them, in rednecks 269 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:37.000 as he called them, and convinced them to burn down 270 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.519 their house, and then they would join his group and 271 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:41.879 they would march to the next rich person's house and 272 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:44.279 burn down their house, and he would just start this 273 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:50.000 global movement and have this brigade, this squad or this army. 274 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:56.080 So he lived and not far from the Oda House, 275 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:00.440 which was a prominent, beautiful, beautiful house design by an 276 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:03.120 architect named Aaron Green who was a protege of Frank 277 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:04.679 Lloyd Wright. 278 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:05.440 So they built it. 279 00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:07.399 Up on this hill, and Aaron Green was very careful 280 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:09.879 to work with the Oda family not to even cut 281 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:12.159 down a single tree when they're building the house. And 282 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:16.360 actually even today the house is built around trees, you know. 283 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:19.440 But Fraser didn't see it that way. He saw it 284 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:21.639 as they were polluting the environment. We're going to burn 285 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:26.000 down this house. So on October nineteen, nineteen seventy, he 286 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:31.120 basically ambushed the family in the house. He killed each 287 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:37.480 member of the family and Dorothy Codwallader in a terrible fashion, 288 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:41.960 and left this surreal note almost sort of like a 289 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:47.600 Zodiac type note with terret codes and all these things, 290 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:50.919 as if this was this massive movement and not one man. 291 00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:55.120 And he was captured very shortly after because he had 292 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:58.559 been spouting off all of these ideas to his friends 293 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.399 and neighbors, so with him a couple of days he 294 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:05.680 was caught for those murders. But you know, the flood 295 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:09.160 of the press descended on Santa CRUs and this made 296 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:13.480 headlines all over the world. One of the district attorneys 297 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:17.960 was actually in Africa and he saw a newspaper and 298 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:21.359 there was in the headlines in Africa, in Africa, and 299 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:24.319 he said, oh, my goodness, I better go home. So 300 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:28.559 that and then, as you talked about before, hot on 301 00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:34.039 the heels of that. Right after the trial, both Herbert 302 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:39.799 Mullen and Edmund Kemper started their murder spree. 303 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:44.920 Right and people know that Herbert William Mullen between October 304 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:49.160 seventy two and seventy three, right, he murdered thirteen, apparently 305 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:52.119 after the death of his best friend and excessive use 306 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.039 of eleuggenic drugs. Of course, he showed signs of mental 307 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.119 illness and soon began killing. He stated that he believed 308 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:03.799 the murders could at earthquakes. Edmund Kemper, the third, is 309 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.200 more well known. Tell us a little bit about Edmund Kemper, 310 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:12.200 because he did a lot of talking and according according 311 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:16.119 to your book as well, John Douglas and Robert K. Wrestler, 312 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:19.839 when they decided to do their impromptu visits to the 313 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:23.880 prisons to speak to serial killers, or before that term 314 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:26.599 was even coined. The first person that they spoke to 315 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:30.680 was Edmund Kemper. So he was very cooperative in trying 316 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:34.319 to have some insights into exactly how he became how 317 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:34.839 he became. 318 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:41.920 Yeah, so yeah, very quickly, Yeah, Edmund Kemper. When he 319 00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:46.440 was fifteen years old, he had murdered his grandparents. He 320 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:48.680 desperately wanted to live with his father. He lived with 321 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:52.160 his mother, who I'm sure most of your listeners know 322 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:57.759 was very abusive or somewhat abusive, and she shipped him 323 00:18:57.960 --> 00:18:59.920 or he ran away from home to live with his fathers. 324 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.680 Fathers shipped him off to his parents in this very 325 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:06.240 remote area of California. He ended up killing his grandparents 326 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:10.359 and he was sent to the SAYA, the California Youth Authority, 327 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.160 and then also to a Taska Daro, which was sort 328 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:17.440 of a mental hospital. And he had stated many and 329 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:20.240 that many times, but a couple of times that at 330 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:23.519 a Taska zero, you know, as a young man, he 331 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.920 saw that the hospital was full of rapists that had 332 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:30.160 been caught, and so he started to formulate these ideas 333 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:34.000 that well, I want to do that and I will 334 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:38.559 not be caught, so he started working on his ideas. 335 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:40.880 I always think of Edmund Kemper as almost like a hunter, 336 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:43.720 hunter of people. He was a very clever man, very 337 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:49.319 intelligent man who knew law enforcement, knew the techniques, and 338 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:54.519 really practiced. So anyway, he gets out of a taskadero 339 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:57.880 the mental hospital, they tell the CYA, you know, whatever 340 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:00.880 you do, do not release him to of the custody 341 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.920 of his mother, because she's sort of the triggering factor 342 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:08.359 in his violence. So in their infinite wisdom, the CYA 343 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:11.599 releases him to the custody of his mother and he 344 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:14.799 goes to live with her in Sankers, California. So very 345 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:18.920 shortly after, Edmond Kimper starts picking up hitchhikers and sort 346 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:21.799 of perfecting his plans. You know, by his own account, 347 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:25.000 he picked up hundreds of hitchhikers and dropped them off 348 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:28.039 safely right where they wanted to go. But in his 349 00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:30.640 mind he starts planning what clothes am I going to wear? 350 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:32.960 What glasses am I going to wear that make me 351 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:36.359 look less intimidating. He starts developing little techniques, but like 352 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.000 looking at his watch when he's picking, I don't know 353 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:42.400 if I have time to take you where you need 354 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:46.440 to go, I guess, so get in. He starts designing 355 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:50.079 even his car. His car had these pull handles, and 356 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:52.880 he could drop a chapstick or a broken off door 357 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.119 handle in it, and the person would be the hitchhiker 358 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:58.640 would effectively be locked in with him. And of course, 359 00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:00.839 you know, he's six foot nine and he's got a pistol, 360 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.359 he's got a knife, and they're not going to be 361 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:07.599 able to stop him. So he started formulating all of 362 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:10.759 these ideas, and I would say a few months or 363 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:15.359 more than that, several months later he started enacting as plan, 364 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:19.480 and he killed a total of six hitchhikers in the 365 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:21.720 Sanakers area. The first three he had picked up in 366 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.680 the Berkeley area, but he ultimately brought their bodies to 367 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:29.319 Sannakers And and that's when, you know, at the almost 368 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:34.480 simultaneous time, like you said, Herbert Mullen, who had experienced 369 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:37.640 this tragic loss of his friend and started experimenting with drugs, 370 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:41.680 sort of went over the edge and started having these 371 00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:45.079 these ideations in his head about I'm going to save 372 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:50.000 California from this massive earthquake and falling into the ocean, 373 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:53.480 and that the Aztecs had it right. Really, the only 374 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:55.799 way we can do this is through human sacrifice. And 375 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.119 I guess I will be that that that person that 376 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.319 saves California. Yeah, I will be that sadist as he said, 377 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.880 So he started killing people. He picked up a hitchhiker 378 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:11.799 as well, but almost simultaneously with Edmund Kimper. And that's 379 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.599 where sort of the impact on the community really started 380 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:17.880 to get felt. You know, everyone was breathing the sigh 381 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:22.079 of relief after the Fraser crimes, and here we go again. 382 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:25.599 Bodies start washing up in the ocean, they start finding 383 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:30.279 heads out in the wilderness, and people are being. 384 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:35.799 Killed now in the media and you say it disattracted 385 00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:40.160 worldwide attention. So you talk about Santa Cruz being a 386 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:44.480 lumber and fishing town, and Peter Chang says, you go 387 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:48.200 from a crowded metropolis to a deserted forest in about 388 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.039 three minutes, and that's why you have things happen here 389 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:57.559 that don't happen anywhere else. Tell us more about Santa Cruz. 390 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:01.880 You talk about the phenomen of hitchhiking and its contribution, 391 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:05.759 but just Santa Cruz in general at this time and 392 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:11.240 its effect from again, this murder capital of the world tag. 393 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:13.640 Yeah. 394 00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:17.279 Sure, So Santa Cruz, you know, it had been for many, 395 00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:20.519 many years sort of a sleepy retirement community. Sure there 396 00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:23.319 were surfers here and things. 397 00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:25.039 Like that because the beach is so beautiful, but. 398 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:33.359 Mostly there was this conservative retirement community, you know, like 399 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:36.960 you said, fishermen, lumberjacks. You know, we had logging up 400 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:41.799 in the mountains. And in nineteen sixty five, the University 401 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:44.400