WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:05.480 Welcome back. 2 00:00:05.559 --> 00:00:09.519 Joining us now is David Bonson. He's the owner of 3 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:14.480 the Bonson Group. It manages five point seven billion and 4 00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:17.760 client assets, and he's the author of many books. He's 5 00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:20.280 had one that came out earlier this year which I'm 6 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:22.600 interested in talking to him about, is called Full Time 7 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:26.640 Work and the Meaning of Life. I think that's very important, 8 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.440 that's something we all need to think about. Very interested 9 00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:32.320 to talk to David. Always as familiar, as I said 10 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:34.520 at the beginning of the program, with his father, Greg Bonson, 11 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:38.159 who was a Christian apologist, and he was not apologizing 12 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:39.399 for Christianity, he. 13 00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:41.960 Was explaining it. That's what apologist means. 14 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:46.759 He was an excellent made excellent intellectual arguments in support 15 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:50.520 of the existence of God of Christianity. So it's great 16 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:52.520 to have you on and to meet you. Thank you 17 00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:53.079 for joining us. 18 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:55.479 David, Well, thanks so much for having me. 19 00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:56.039 Thank you. 20 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:59.520 Let's talk a little bit first about the economy, and 21 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:04.760 as somebody who manages a wealth fund, I'm sure you're 22 00:01:04.840 --> 00:01:08.200 watching very closely, as everybody does, what's happening with interest rates. 23 00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:11.200 We're seeing the stock market, of course, is soaring, but 24 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:12.920 that's not too hard I guess if you in check 25 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:16.159 money through that from the Federal Reserve. What is your 26 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:19.280 take on what is going to be happening with interest rates? 27 00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:23.480 Well, interest rates are definitely going to be going lower, 28 00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:26.840 and the debate is only about what the speed at 29 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:31.280 which they lower them effectively. Housing is the issue that 30 00:01:31.319 --> 00:01:35.959 they frozen the housing market first by creating a bubble 31 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:39.079 in housing by keeping rates way too low for way 32 00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:44.920 too long, and then by hiking them so violently and quickly, 33 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:49.599 you really created a two tier housing system where there 34 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:52.840 are a significant amount of people paying something around three 35 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:56.120 percent on their mortgage and they have no interest in 36 00:01:56.200 --> 00:01:59.599 losing that low cost mortgage. And then there's all the 37 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:02.920 people who would organically naturally be wanting to buy a 38 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:06.359 home right now, either a first time home or even 39 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:11.039 just moving to a new home kind of upgrading. Whatever 40 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:14.360 they may be doing is their life situation allows for. 41 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:18.840 But they don't want to pay seven percent for a mortgage. 42 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:22.520 So the Fed's policies are driven by the fact that 43 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:24.800 they know a lot of debt in our country is 44 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:27.719 going to be resetting. The United States government and all 45 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:31.479 its infinite wisdom, has chosen not to lock the rates 46 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:34.360 of most of its debt it's only about sixteen percent 47 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:38.240 of our total debt that is in long term maturities 48 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:42.240 where you recall the twenty year and thirty year yields. 49 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:45.520 The interest rates a few years ago, we're two percent. 50 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:50.360 They are now paying five percent on six month money, 51 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:53.680 one year money. So all that money is going to 52 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:55.960 come do and that's really a big portion of why 53 00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:59.439 the FED needs to be lowering rates, and they will 54 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:02.800 do so. The stock market, David, I don't think is 55 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:07.280 about the FED putting money in per se that always 56 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:10.840 helps the valuation. If the FED is injecting liquidity, it 57 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:13.520 can kind of artificially help prime the pump a bit, 58 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:16.080 but that gets old after a while, and they've been 59 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:19.680 doing that for fifteen years. Earnings are very high, I mean, 60 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:22.479 corporate profits are very high, and the FED can't really 61 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:25.800 control that, and so I think the stocks are largely 62 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:31.240 about growing corporate profits combined with high valuation. And I 63 00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:33.240 would argue probably too high a valuation. 64 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:37.759 Yeah, especially when we look at the places where there's 65 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:40.879 been this kind of a feeding frenzy about artificial intelligence. 66 00:03:41.479 --> 00:03:43.520 I felt for the longest time that you know, regardless 67 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:45.159 of what happens with it, and you can say there's 68 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:47.080 a lot of very useful things that it looks very 69 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:49.599 much like a repeat of the dot com bust to me, 70 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:51.080 I don't know what do you think about that? 71 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:54.400 Yeah, I write about it a lot, so I tend 72 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:57.719 to agree. Trust your intuition a little because you're onto 73 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:01.919 something there, my friend. The bones of the Internet were 74 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:05.159 all that were making money in the nineties, the ciscos 75 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:09.120 and the people that made the networks, the servers, the routers. 76 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:12.319 They were making all the money. But nobody could really 77 00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:15.319 figure out how the Internet companies were going to make money. 78 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:18.000 And then about ninety five percent of them went out 79 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:20.439 of business, and a few of them ended up making 80 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:23.199 a huge amount of money, the Amazons and Googles and 81 00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:27.560 ebays that survived. It's very similar, toy I. No one 82 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:29.759 has been able to explain who's going to actually make 83 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:31.720 money from it, how they're going to use it. It's 84 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:35.160 all the back end. The kitchen is making the money, 85 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:38.399 but not the dining room, and that's your NVIDIAs and 86 00:04:38.439 --> 00:04:43.319 things like that. I believe it's very overhyped, and even 87 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:47.160 if it isn't, it's so priced in. The assumptions I 88 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:50.279 think are very similar to nineteen ninety nine two thousand 89 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:53.240 tech boom, and I'm quite confident it's not going to 90 00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:53.720 end well. 91 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:56.480 And of course there's another backroom involved in that that's 92 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.800 kind of emerging, and that is supplying power for this 93 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:04.439 massively power hungry artificial intelligence. And I guess one of 94 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:06.920 the things it's just an ordinary person I'm looking at 95 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:09.079 this and saying, well, they're going to make all these 96 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:13.160 small nuclear reactors, and they're creating companies as Sam Altman 97 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:17.240 did to cater to that need, but they're going to 98 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:19.360 be consuming all that power even as they shut down 99 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:21.240 our grid. I mean, we really are seeing kind of 100 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:23.720 a two tier society here, I think, and especially we 101 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:26.040 can see it when it comes to energy. But I 102 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:27.800 guess a lot of people are just looking at it 103 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:30.439 as an investment opportunity. And I guess it is an 104 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:34.160 investment opportunity. But you know, from somebody who's just now 105 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:36.720 on the sidelines, I'm wondering, you know, am I going 106 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:38.879 to have utility bills that are going to be four 107 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:41.120 to ten times higher than they are now? Is it 108 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:44.560 going to be unreliable as well? While the artificial intelligence is, 109 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:48.040 you know, powering itself as his own private nuclear reactors. 110 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:49.199 What do you think about that? 111 00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:51.920 Well, I think that there's a couple of different things 112 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:55.040 around once, and it's complicated enough that I hesitate to 113 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:57.680 bore our listeners with the details. But I will say this, 114 00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:00.839 the people need to learn that are like city doesn't 115 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:03.560 grow on trees, but it does come from the ground 116 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:08.399 oil and gas and of course coal power electricity production. 117 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:11.519 The state of Virginia right now, twenty six point seven 118 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:16.399 percent of its electricity is being used for data center. 119 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:19.160 Now that's a high data center state, and other states 120 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:23.439 are not so high, but that's massive. People can say 121 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:25.720 whatever they want, you're not going to get the electricity 122 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:28.920 without natural gas. So we're going to either embrace what 123 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:31.120 God has given us in the ground or we're not. 124 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:34.399 But if people don't want utility bills to go higher, 125 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:37.839 the solution is readily available in the beautiful per Median 126 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:38.800 basin period. 127 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:41.279 Well, I've gotten a great more. Let's talk about the 128 00:06:41.319 --> 00:06:44.439 politics though, the interest rates. You know, this is a 129 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:47.319 lot of people are saying, well, okay, the Federal Reserve 130 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:51.959 is pumping this for the election to make current administration 131 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:52.319 look good. 132 00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:53.480 What is your take on that? 133 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:58.839 Yeah, Look, I'm a lifetime movement conservative. I've written multiple things, 134 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:03.279 both academically and more targeted for Layman about monetary policy 135 00:07:03.319 --> 00:07:06.399 and the FED. I'm often very critical, but this is 136 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:07.800 one thing where I just want to say to my 137 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:12.639 conservative friends, the political conspiracy theory makes absolutely no sense. 138 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:16.560 You can't help the incumbent ticket, which in this case 139 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:21.120 is now Vice President Harris a month before the election. 140 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:24.160 If you wanted to help, you don't raise rates five 141 00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:27.600 percent in one year, which is what they did in 142 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:31.399 the prior year. The economic narrative is very well baked in, 143 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.600 and a half of a percent a few weeks before 144 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:40.639 absentee ballots does and did absolutely nothing to help anybody. 145 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:44.720 I have plenty of criticism I can give towards Chairman Powell, 146 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:47.560 but he is not a political actor. There's no love 147 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:50.120 lost between him and President Biden. I happen to know 148 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:54.040 that firsthand. I think that whether they're making good decisions 149 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:57.199 or bad decisions, they're not making political ones. So it's 150 00:07:57.279 --> 00:08:00.920 just one area where i'd defend them. And again, if 151 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:03.160 somebody wanted to say, oh, the FED has kind of 152 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:06.600 hurt the election outcome a bit, it would be the 153 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:09.120 other way. I mean, they you know, it's very hard 154 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:12.680 for president to get re elected when they tighten monetary policy. 155 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.759 That's really what they spent most of the Biden term doing. 156 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:16.279 Yeah. 157 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:18.079 Yeah, And of course we had a lot of people, 158 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:20.519 a lot of people that I talked to, really expected 159 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:23.399 them to make a political move, so they expected them 160 00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:27.079 to lower interest rates significantly, much much earlier in the year, 161 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:29.240 so they would have had an effect. And I guess 162 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:31.199 that was what people were surprised about. And I guess 163 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:34.039 we could speculate about what the intentions of the Fed 164 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:37.120 are if they're going to withhold that until the last 165 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:39.799 minute and not really have an effect. But let me 166 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:42.720 ask you about this, and that is the current Treasury 167 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:46.840 Secretary predecessor to Pwell, Janet Yellen, who was at the 168 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:49.480 FED for a long time. You know, she has made 169 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:55.320 as one person point out recently, so you can look 170 00:08:55.320 --> 00:09:00.240 at the damage and the threat to the dollars deserve 171 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:02.519 status from bricks and other things like that. But the 172 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:06.919 person who's done more to damage the reserve status of 173 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:09.799 the dollar than anyone else is Jenet Yellen because of 174 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.200 these sanctions that they impose and other things like that 175 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:16.200 basically use this power and wielded it in such a 176 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:19.679 way as to effectively destroyed a lot of people believe 177 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:23.279 that's the situation. What's your take on that, and on 178 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:26.039 the status of the reserve status of the dollar, what 179 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:26.559 do you think? 180 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:29.519 Yeah, the reserve status of the dollar, by the way, 181 00:09:29.639 --> 00:09:32.720 is the important part, not the trading status. So when 182 00:09:32.759 --> 00:09:37.000 people talk about bricks countries utilizing something different, something like 183 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:41.960 point one percent of oil went out of petro dollar 184 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:47.279 transaction and into let's say Chinese wand is the great example. 185 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:52.360 But it's still then reservans. It gets held in reserves, 186 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:55.759 and nobody is going to be holding any other currency 187 00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:59.759 it reserves anytime soon. In terms of foreign exchange, the 188 00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:02.440 doll is still what people want to hold in reserves, 189 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:06.600 but transacting in another currency. I would encourage every country 190 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:08.559 to do what they think is best for them, and 191 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:11.759 that includes the United States very candidly. The United States 192 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:14.360 has been doing what's best for it with its currency. 193 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:17.519 That's what makes these other countries upset because what we're 194 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:20.080 doing is often not best for them. So be it. 195 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:21.960 That's the way it works. I don't believe in one 196 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:26.039 world government, but I think make a great point. I 197 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:28.600 don't believe that what they did with the Russia sanctions 198 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:32.879 is dispositive. I don't think it is going to ruin 199 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:37.440 the dollars reserve status, but it marginally does cause other 200 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:41.799 countries to wonder could this happen to us? And hopefully 201 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:44.879 those countries say, we don't plan to go invade a 202 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:50.240 free country anytime soon. However, once you see a country 203 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:54.279 using and weaponizing its currency that way, it's not how 204 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:57.519 it's supposed to be. And I do think it marginally 205 00:10:57.559 --> 00:11:01.039 impacted confidence abroad in dollar reserve. 206 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:04.399 Yes, yeah, and and I guess one of the things 207 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:06.480 that we see now happening with the bricks as they're 208 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:08.799 starting to expand. It's been around for a while, but 209 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:11.799 you know, in response to this, as they're starting to 210 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:15.720 expand it in terms of currency exchanges and stuff like that, 211 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:18.960 they're bringing in a you know, most of the oil producers, 212 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:21.279 you know, we're coming into this now. Saudi Arabia didn't 213 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:24.120 buy into it, but they got really close. And so 214 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:26.320 you know what we have done with the petro dollar away, 215 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:27.320 we've weaponized that. 216 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:29.360 I guess two could play at that game. 217 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:32.480 You know that that might be turned around, but it 218 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:36.679 almost makes you nostalgic for you know, oil when you 219 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:38.679 see what is being imposed on us with all of 220 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:40.639 these green regulations that are there. 221 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:42.600 Let's talk a little bit about your. 222 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.679 Book, though, I would really like to get an idea 223 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:50.320 of you know, work in the in the meaning of life. 224 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:52.080 You know, how do we balance this thing? This has 225 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:54.919 always been a real issue for us, you know what, 226 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:56.759 what is important for you to do with your life? 227 00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:00.000 As Christians? We always wonder, you know, well, now, how 228 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:02.559 how should we live now that we're a Christian? What 229 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:06.559 is your take on your book? Is full time work 230 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:08.320 in the Meaning of Life? Tell us a little bit 231 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:09.600 about your perspective on that. 232 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:14.240 Well, you mentioned my late father, doctor Greg Bonsen, who 233 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:18.360 you pointed out as a Christian apologist, a philosopher. He 234 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.000 raised me in the nurture and admonition of the Lord 235 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.320 with a biblical worldview. He taught me to think and 236 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:27.519 live like a Christian. He was my best friend, the 237 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:31.120 smartest human being I've ever been around, and this book 238 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:34.480 is essentially it was dedicated to him. He was a 239 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:39.200 very hard worker, but I've devoted my life to applying 240 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:44.039 Biblical worldview and principles in the domain of finance economics. 241 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:47.759 I'm very, very exhausted by Christians that don't know how 242 00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:51.799 to think like Christians economically, and I view all of 243 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:54.399 that as very similar to what my dad did. It's 244 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:57.559 just he was in the field of philosophy and theology, 245 00:12:57.600 --> 00:12:59.320 and I'm trying to do it in the field of 246 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:07.000 finding investment, economics, entrepreneurialism. The idea of work as something 247 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:09.240 we have to balance with the rest of our life 248 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:11.799 is something I take exception to and have a whole 249 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.279 chapter about it in the book. I don't ever hear 250 00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:18.440 people talk about marriage life balance or kid life balance. 251 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.799 We accept that we're always spouses, we're always parents, and 252 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:28.639 we're always vocationally committed to some sort of useful productive activity. 253 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:30.879 And what I argue in the book is the reason 254 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:34.600 why is because that's how God made us. That's what 255 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:37.200 it means to be made in the image and likeness 256 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.679 of God. That before sin entered the world, God made 257 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:44.759 us to grow the earth, to care for the earth, 258 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:48.279 to subdue it, to produce new goods and services. That's 259 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:51.639 all I mean by work. We have our needs met 260 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:54.360 by meeting the needs of others. I think this is 261 00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:59.120 a beautiful principle in terms of creational norms, but it's 262 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:02.759 a beautiful way to think about our own purpose in life. 263 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:05.399 Of course, it doesn't mean that we work twenty four 264 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:08.519 hours a day anymore than we're looking lovingly in our 265 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:11.879 wife's eyes twenty four hours a day. There's a lot 266 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:15.480 of priorities, but life doesn't work that way that we're 267 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.600 just taking hats on and off at different times, all 268 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:23.799 at once. I am embodied as a being made an 269 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.320 image of God, who is to love my wife, love 270 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:29.720 my children, and love my career, and devote myself to 271 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:33.679 production of goods and services, to growing the earth, to 272 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:37.159 fulfilling that created purpose. That's what the book's about. 273 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:38.039 That's great. 274 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:42.120 Yeah, we often forget that work itself is not a punishment. 275 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:45.240 In the fall, it was that work would become much 276 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:49.759 harder funishment, right, just like childbirth is not a punishment 277 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.679 that many in the feminist movement think that it is, 278 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:56.000 but it's not. It's just that it's as much harder now. 279 00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:00.399 And so that's a really good point. Years ago, I 280 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:04.159 remember listening to an audiobook by Oz Gennis. It was 281 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:07.200 called The Calling, and it came at a point where 282 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:08.960 I was in a change in my career, and I 283 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.120 thought it was very interesting, you know, talking about the 284 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:17.000 importance of vocation, which really means a calling. You know, 285 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:20.200 God is calling you to do something, and so the 286 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:22.200 real key is for all of us to try to 287 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:25.080 identify what skills God has given us, I think, and 288 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:30.080 then to understand that we have been made for that 289 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:32.279 particular type of thing. I mean, what is your take 290 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:33.679 on that kind of approach? 291 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:38.879 Well, I absolutely loved that book by Oz and in 292 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:42.480 fact I talk about it in my own book. Tim 293 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:45.519 Keller used the language every good endeavor. I think that 294 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:51.200 God made us to go create beauty, to go create efficiency, 295 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:55.240 to extract from the raw materials of the earth. You know, 296 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.000 you and I are using technological equipment right now to 297 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:01.159 record all of it exists did at the Garden of 298 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:05.000 Eden if you just simply mean the physical compounds, the 299 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:07.879 rubbers and plastics and things that would be that were 300 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:13.080 derived from the created materials. What happened, and this is 301 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:16.399 what the calling I think becomes about, is human ingenuity, 302 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:21.039 human acuity, human creativity. Back then, they learned how to 303 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:24.720 start a fire, they invented the wheel. You know, today 304 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:27.559 they're in vetting iPhones and other things. It's gotten more 305 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:32.039 technologically advanced, but in our own calling. The beauty is 306 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:34.879 that because God. This is what the left doesn't understand, 307 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:39.200 the Marxist utopian vision that views all and it's really 308 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:43.120 quite Roussoian that views mankind is all part of a 309 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:47.759 collective God, doesn't. He views you differently, me differently, my 310 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:51.519 wife differently, this person, that person, and in our individuality, 311 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:55.279 some people are poets, some people are plumbers, some people 312 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:59.200 are builders, some people are educators, some people are financiers. 313 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:03.399 That in individuality is a beautiful thing in the marketplace. 314 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:06.200 But it's beautiful because God made it that way out 315 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:11.039 of creation and the doctrine of well where we put 316 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:13.559 this way, the concept of each of us having our 317 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:18.680 own calling, there's nowhere that myself for os Guinness states 318 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:21.920 that the entirety of our calling has related to our vocation. 319 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:24.839 But nor can one ever say that it isn't a 320 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.960 part of it. And that's the category error people make 321 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:31.920 is to say it's all or none. I would argue 322 00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:35.039 that no one's calling is divorced from their vocation, but 323 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:37.519 the vocation is not the entirety of their calling. 324 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:39.720 That's right. Yeah, And he made the point. 325 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:43.640 I think he quoted Martin Luther, who said, you know, 326 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:45.680 you don't have to be a member of the clergy 327 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:48.519 in order to serve God. God has put you in 328 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:51.160 the farmer who is doing his job and doing it 329 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:55.519 to God's glory and living his life to God. He 330 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:59.079 is glorifying God. That's where God has put him, and 331 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:02.839 that is That was a real key insight, I think 332 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:05.799 for me at the time, and I think that's really 333 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:07.839 kind of the way that we need to look at it. 334 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:10.559 I don't know, and mar Martin Luther would use off 335 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:12.960 an example of a cobbler with shoes, and I happened 336 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:15.480 to know the shoes they were dealing with five six 337 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:17.640 hundred years ago were not quite as comfortable as our 338 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:20.480 shoes today. So he had a high view of a 339 00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:24.559 cobbler when the feet weren't even all that comfortable. It's 340 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:29.200 called dualism, the sacred secular distinction, and Martin Luther tore 341 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:33.599 it down, and much of Protestant theology has been focused 342 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:37.720 on this. At the end of the day, the minister 343 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:42.640 has a very important vocation, the cobbler, the educator, the 344 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:49.680 radio host, the financier. There is not a gnostic higher 345 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:53.799 power for those who call themselves pastors versus those who 346 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:58.079 are serving the Kingdom of God in these other vocational fields, 347 00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:01.680 and so tearing down that sacred set distinction is one 348 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:03.960 of the great legacies of people like Martin Luther. 349 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:07.759 I agree, and it's so embedded in the foundation of Christianity, 350 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:11.400 the idea that we have different gifts, that we have 351 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:14.240 different functions and everything. You know, Paul talks about that 352 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:16.319 in terms of the body, you know, how the body 353 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:19.279 has different members that have different functions, or talk about 354 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.079 it in terms of building, you know, living a church 355 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:24.880 out of stones, and how there's all these different things 356 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:27.480 that are out there and some people are you know, 357 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:30.680 given one thing or Jesus talks about the parable of 358 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.680 the talents. You know, that's now become part of our vernacular, 359 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:36.759 just like a vocation has. But you know, he was 360 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:39.799 talking about a quantity of money, silver that was given 361 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:42.839 to these people, So you know, different we have different quantities, 362 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:45.680 different qualities of things that are given to all of us. 363 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.359 But as you point out, the essence of all of 364 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:51.960 this is that God deals with us, not has some 365 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:53.640 kind of a collective I say this all the time 366 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.960 about public health or public education. It's like that's one 367 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:00.759 of the problem, is that collective Marxist mentality to cards 368 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:03.240 that some kind of a public thing ignoring the individual, 369 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:05.960 public health that ignores the health of the individual, public 370 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:08.960 education that really doesn't care about the education of the individual. 371 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:12.960 And so this collectivism that is there is really kind 372 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:17.920 of anesthetical to Christianity and towards the Christian understanding of 373 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:20.640 what God has given us in the Bible, but his 374 00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:23.640 interaction with each of us as individuals. As you just 375 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:25.680 pointed out, Yeah. 376 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:29.200 There's really two grotesque mistakes that people can make. And 377 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:32.119 it's why I believe economics. They talked about the need 378 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:35.079 for a distinctly Christian understanding of economics, and you're getting 379 00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:39.400 to the heart of it. God made us as individuals 380 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:44.440 and as members of a community, and a radical individualism 381 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:47.880 that does not care about the individual responsibility to their 382 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:51.559 neighbor or their family or their community is Unchristian. And 383 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:55.400 a radical collectivism that views the dignity of the person 384 00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:58.119 only when attached to the state or by the way 385 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:01.359 to the church. Someone has such a high view of 386 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.240 church that they say the human is only important in 387 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:06.960 the way that they're serving the church. That's not right either. 388 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:12.279 But what Christianity does and a biblical anthropology. A biblical 389 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:17.680 understanding of the human person sees just like Jesus was 390 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:22.920 incarnate fully god fully man, the human person is both 391 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:28.200 individual and social. Their dignity comes from their status of 392 00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:32.079 being an image bearer of God, and they also function 393 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:36.240 in a society, They function in families, and so that 394 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:39.359 one in the many dynamic of Christianity is unique in 395 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.000 human history. And candidly it's beautiful. 396 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.799 Oh yeah, that absolutely is. I remember interviewing G. Edward 397 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.319 Griffin and he said, we get so focused on individual 398 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:52.000 liberty that we atomize ourselves. And course this is before 399 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.839 they try to atomize us with the twenty twenty lockdown 400 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:58.119 and all the isolate each and every one of us, 401 00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:02.880