WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:04.480 With Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.599 Really beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen 3 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:08.960 the bride and broom? 4 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:09.279 Sorry? 5 00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:12.160 Sorry, we're here. We were getting lucky in the limo 6 00:00:12.199 --> 00:00:13.240 and we lost track of time. 7 00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:16.760 No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up 8 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:18.000 quicker than a guess registered. 9 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:20.399 Well, in that case, I pronounce you lucky. 10 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:24.920 Play for free Lucky Landslots dot Com. Daily bonuses are waiting. 11 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:27.760 No purchase necessary board. We're prohibited by lack eighteen plus 12 00:00:27.879 --> 00:00:30.120 terms and conditions APPLA see website for details. 13 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:35.320 Judy was boring Hello, Then Judy discovered chumpacasino dot com. 14 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:36.880 It's my little escape. 15 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:39.200 Now Judy is the life of the party. Oh baby 16 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:42.439 mama is bringing home the bacon. WHOA Take it easy, Judy. 17 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:46.119 Jump the Chump of life is for everybody. So go 18 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:49.240 to chumpacasino dot com and play over one hundred casino 19 00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:52.039 style games. Join today and play for free for your 20 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:56.200 chance to redeem some serious prices. Jump chump a casino 21 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:58.399 dot com. No for just necessary weight. We're no gitted 22 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:02.560 by money team plus terms and condition to place. Sabtytail Host. 23 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:18.879 Quiet Host Radio You are now listening to True Murder, 24 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:22.719 The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the 25 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:27.760 authors that have written about him. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The 26 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:33.519 night Stalker VTK. Every week, another fascinating author talking about 27 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:36.560 the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. 28 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:49.040 True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 29 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:55.439 This is your host, Dan Zupaski, for the program True Murder, 30 00:01:55.480 --> 00:01:58.239 The most shocking killers in true crime History and the 31 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:01.879 authors that have written about them. On November thirtieth, nineteen 32 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:05.000 eighty nine, in Florida, a man was shot four times 33 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:09.039 by a naked, heartfaced blonde prostitute. He suffered a slow, 34 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.120 agonizing death while the woman stripped him of his value. 35 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:26.840 Quiet Host, you are now listening to True Murder, The 36 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:30.439 most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors 37 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:36.800 that have written Abultium Gasey, Bundy, Stammer, The Night Stalker DCK. 38 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:41.520 Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 39 00:02:41.639 --> 00:02:45.719 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 40 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:59.919 your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanskidising. 41 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:02.840 This is your host Stan Supanski for the program True Murder, 42 00:03:03.639 --> 00:03:05.960 The Most Shocking Killers in true crime history and the 43 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:12.319 authors that have written about them. 44 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:14.000 Pardon Me. 45 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:17.639 On a moonlight night in November nineteen ninety seven, fourteen 46 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:19.800 year old Rina Urke went to a party with some 47 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:22.800 of her friends near the idyllic waters of Victoria, British Columbia. 48 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:26.080 She never returned home. A week later, her body was 49 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:28.840 found by police divers and eight teenagers, seven of them 50 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:33.520 girls were arrested. Two teens, Warren Galawowski and Kelly Ellard, 51 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:35.759 were charged and eventually convicted for their role in a 52 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:39.680 vicious and unexpected crime, and Under the Bridge author Rebecca 53 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:43.840 Godfrey unravels the haunting, compelling tale behind this terrible murder 54 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.879 and the long, often bizarre trials of the now notorious 55 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:50.840 Kelly Ellard. Drawing on exclusive interviews in six years of research, 56 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:55.439 Godfrey for reveals the complex story behind the headlines, offering 57 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:59.800 readers a vivid portrait of suburban teenagers, persistent detectives, and 58 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:03.000 stun parents caught up and transformed by a Canadian tragedy. 59 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:05.560 Under the Bridge, the true story of the murder of 60 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:10.039 rena Vert with my special guest journalist and author Rebecca Godfrey. 61 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:12.439 Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview and 62 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:18.040 welcome to the program. Rebecca Godfrey. Hi, sorry about that 63 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:20.879 mistake at the beginning. I don't know how that file 64 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:24.319 got under way, but I'm hoping we have no more 65 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.279 glitches for the rest of the show, and I apologize now. 66 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.399 First off, Rebecca, I want to know what made you 67 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:33.720 decide to write about this particular murder case and what 68 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:35.399 year did this murder take place? 69 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:40.040 And the murder took twice in ninety seven, and it 70 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:44.680 may not be so familiar to your American audience, but 71 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:48.439 in Canada it became sort of our OJ Simpson and 72 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:53.600 it was frontage news and a huge story, mainly because 73 00:04:54.839 --> 00:05:00.360 you know, usually, as your introduction mentioned, see the people 74 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:03.879 associated with grizzly murders or men, and you know, the 75 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:09.639 Bundee Dahmer type. And this was these very you know, attractive, 76 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:14.279 fresh faced young girls charged in a very grizzly murder. 77 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:18.560 So it became a huge story, and it happened. I 78 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:21.879 was living in New York at the time and read 79 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:25.319 about it in the New York Times, but it happened 80 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:28.160 in my hometown Victoria, in Canada, where I'd grown up, 81 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:35.480 and so I felt some connection or interest and it 82 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:38.079 was also drawn in because there was so little coming 83 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:40.079 from the teenagers. It was written about a lot, but 84 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:43.399 the teenagers weren't talking to the media, and so I 85 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.240 was really a mystery of a true murder, mystery of 86 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.160 what had happened, and we had very vague media reports. 87 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:53.360 So that was what got me interested. 88 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:56.600 Okay, so you read in New York City at the time, 89 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:59.399 but this is your hometown, so obviously it struck home. 90 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:01.839 I mean, this is something you could relate to. Now 91 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:05.079 is tell us about what is the city where this 92 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:06.480 story centers around. 93 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:07.639 We mentioned it. 94 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:10.040 I know where it is, obviously, but for our American audience, 95 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:12.639 what is the city where this story centers around and 96 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:14.720 what kind of community was it? 97 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.600 And it's on the Star the west coast of Canada, 98 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:25.680 and it's Vancouver Island near Washington State, and it's a 99 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:30.160 very extremely beautiful islands. It's you know, main source of 100 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:34.959 income is from tourists who come to look at the gardens, 101 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.160 and it's very There is a British heritage, so there's 102 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:41.720 you know, tea rooms and double decker buses, so it's 103 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:44.600 very charming on the surface. Having grown up there, I 104 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:48.279 know there was also a kind of David Lynch like weird, 105 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:53.040 weird side to it, and there's been some strange murders before. 106 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:56.759 So it's a very you know, there's a rainy, kind 107 00:06:56.759 --> 00:07:02.040 of gloomy place, but also quite quite beautiful. The murder 108 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:08.759 itself happened in a community. You know, it's an island, 109 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:11.560 so it was a community near near the water and 110 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:15.519 a pretty sort of middle to a working class neighborhood. 111 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:19.040 But you know, this is the first murder a lot 112 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:22.160 of the detectives had worked on. I think this was, 113 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:26.319 you know, a teenage girl hadn't you know, been murdered 114 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:30.240 in the town maybe in ten years, So it was 115 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:33.639 it was unexpected and that's again why people were so 116 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:37.079 shocked by it. It was in Toronto, you know, an 117 00:07:37.160 --> 00:07:41.959 urban city. It's a very low crime rate town. 118 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:43.160 Sure. 119 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:47.000 Now, the central figure in this tragic story, of course, 120 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:52.279 is Rena Work. What was her family life like and 121 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:55.800 from all your research and how old was she at 122 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:56.240 this time? 123 00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:58.000 Tell us tell us about Rena Work. 124 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:05.600 She was fourteen and having a bit of a rough time. 125 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:12.920 She was in you know, a girl that didn't really 126 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:16.360 seem like she had found her group. She wasn't getting 127 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:20.199 along with her family. She had run away several times, 128 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:23.680 which is why when the police heard about the case, 129 00:08:23.720 --> 00:08:27.399 they initially didn't investigate because they thought she was missing. 130 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:31.279 You know, when her parents reported her missing, they just thought, oh, 131 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:33.360 she'd run away, and they didn't didn't look into it. 132 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:36.679 So she had I was having time. She was very sweet, 133 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:41.120 not violent, just sort of lost and looking to find 134 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:43.960 some group where she belonged, and she became sort of 135 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:48.200 drawn and attracted to this tougher group of girls. 136 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:50.600 Was she originally from the island or she had moved 137 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:52.879 there or was there a change of schools or something. 138 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.519 No, she had grown up there. Yeah, her her family 139 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:00.759 had a background from India, but they her her mother 140 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:03.360 was born in Canada, her dad had immigrated. 141 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:08.039 So were they an old world type family though despite 142 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:12.879 not being from you know, not necessarily obviously being Canadian? 143 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:16.679 But was there explain explain the the was it just 144 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:20.039 normal fourteen year old angst that she was dealing with 145 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.600 her parents or what were the problems? So elaborate a 146 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:24.879 little bit on why she had a little the problems 147 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:27.399 with her her family and why did she not fit in. 148 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.480 Yeah, I mean I think her family was more traditional 149 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:34.519 and you know, serious values that like her view and 150 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:39.519 no smoking, and she was meeting kids whose parents were 151 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:45.399 more relaxed, and so she there was conflict with her 152 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:50.759 family there. She wanted to loser rules and her family 153 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:52.960 were jahopa as witnesses. I don't know how you know 154 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:55.720 how much that played into it too, a sort of 155 00:09:55.799 --> 00:10:01.720 culture class and rigid, rigid rules. So but she had 156 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:04.720 very loving grandparents and aunts and uncles, the sort of 157 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:07.120 extended family that she was close to. She lived for 158 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:11.360 a while with her grandparents, but at a certain point 159 00:10:11.519 --> 00:10:15.360 she you know, just clashed with her parents and went 160 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:20.960 into a group home with girls from taffer backgrounds. 161 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:24.559 Okay, so she made it to a group home. Did 162 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:26.679 she have any did you have any run ins with 163 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:28.759 the law at all? And how did she have run 164 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:30.799 ins at school? How was she as a student? Just 165 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.240 as a student at school. 166 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:36.360 I think she was probably a good student, but she 167 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:40.399 she was overweight, and you know, I don't know if 168 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:42.960 her race played into it, being East Indian, but she 169 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:45.480 was sort of picked on and teased at school, so 170 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:49.799 she stopped going to school. So she was, you know, 171 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:54.039 a misfit and not the popular kid at all. 172 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:59.159 Okay, And so at this fourteen years of age. When 173 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:02.240 we're getting round to this story, we'll say go back 174 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:04.679 to maybe just previous to that, maybe the year before 175 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:10.039 or preceding this whole terrible event. What is happening in 176 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.799 Rena Virk's life. You say she's a misfit. You've described 177 00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:15.039 her as that not really fitting in, overweight, maybe some 178 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:19.720 self esteem problems, East Indian background, and that sometimes open 179 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:23.519 to ridicule for some people. Traditional family, where she's at 180 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:26.120 odds with her family because of their religious background and 181 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:29.840 maybe even their cultural background. Tell us what happens in 182 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:33.480 that the last six months or the preceding six months 183 00:11:33.519 --> 00:11:36.320 before that, what happens in Rena RK's life. You would 184 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:39.799 mention that she's meeting a tougher crowd. Tell us a 185 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:43.080 little bit more about some of the relationships that she's having. 186 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:47.879 I think she was very desperate to have friends and 187 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:52.960 with finding that difficult and she I mean, that's part 188 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:56.919 of what made the whole story so heartbreaking. Is the 189 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.360 final night of her life. These girls found in her 190 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:03.840 to a party and she thought they were finally inviting 191 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:07.320 her to a party, and actually they weren't. Had planned 192 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:10.759 to beat her up, So you know that was her 193 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:13.360 her search was to find a group of people that 194 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:17.399 liked her, and she adored and started vitalized this group 195 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:21.200 of girls. At that time, I don't know, you know, 196 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:24.080 if you remember, but ninety seven in the pop culture, 197 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.320 it was a lot of hip hop culture and kids 198 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:32.039 is you know, all races kind of emulating American gang culture, 199 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:36.279 and so these suburban girls were all sort of pretending 200 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:40.360 they were gangsters and acting, you know, wearing the baggy pants. 201 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:45.720 And so she was going doing that and and you know, 202 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:51.639 painting her nails blue and talking to saster talk and yeah, 203 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:55.480 and then she met these girls and really became fascinated 204 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:58.399 with them and tried to be friends with them and 205 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:04.080 ended up doing things that just infuriated them. She stole, 206 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:07.679 i mean, very petty teenage girl things, stole a girl's 207 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:13.519 address book and started calling people in that book and telling, 208 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.440 you know, saying gossip. And so this set off this 209 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:17.759 chain of events. 210 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:20.559 Okay, let's go back a little bit, just give us 211 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:22.559 a little bit more background for people that are following 212 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:25.960 the story that don't know the story completely. Now you've 213 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:29.240 mentioned that she's maybe you know, hanging with a tougher crowd. 214 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:32.720 Let's introduce some of these characters, So you can describe 215 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:35.200 some of these characters that are in this story. Here, 216 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.519 let's start with Warren Gliwatski. What was what was the 217 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:42.639 background and can you tell us what can you tell 218 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.759 us about Warren Gatski? 219 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:49.159 Well, Warren, actually, I mean we can get into it more. 220 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:53.639 But the girls that Rina met initially didn't include Warren. 221 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:59.279 Warren didn't even know Rena, but he was sort of 222 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.320 in apparel, you know, sadly in a kind of parallel 223 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:06.600 stage for her. At the same time, he was also 224 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:13.600 kind of lost, and he had moved to Victoria recently. 225 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:17.360 His dad and mother had split up. His dad had 226 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:21.840 taken him to Victoria, and his dad had met a 227 00:14:21.840 --> 00:14:24.960 woman from California and had decided he would go live 228 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:28.320 with this woman and leave Warren in Victoria alone. So 229 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:33.039 Warren was living with a friend, you know, sleeping on 230 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:37.679 a friend's place, and his mother was an alcoholic, so 231 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:39.799 he didn't have any contact with her. But he was 232 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:43.879 much more than Rena, very popular, very charming, really had 233 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:46.200 that sort of Justin Bieber. I mean, he really looked 234 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.159 like Justin Bieber, kind of that androgynost cuteness, and he 235 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:52.519 was extremely popular kid. 236 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:53.480 What was his. 237 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:56.559 He went by a moniker himself as sort of a 238 00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:57.440 hip hop moniker. 239 00:14:58.200 --> 00:14:59.879 Yeah, they all kind of be hip hop names. So 240 00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:03.279 he we went by Warren g in the California Rapper. 241 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:07.120 Okay, now Warren Warren Glowski, Warren g He was a 242 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:12.159 little bit older, right, yeah, yeah, okay, Okay, So now 243 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:16.120 tell us the posse that Rena Vike was trying to 244 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:18.320 hang with, and maybe you can introduce these characters. 245 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.240 Obviously there's Kelly Ellard. 246 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:24.960 But explain the girls that Rena Vike first met. I 247 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:29.519 guess together, get the chronological order for audience, which girls 248 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:31.720 that they meet, tell and then tell us about the 249 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:35.480 character of that that one girl, and we'll proceed with 250 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:37.559 the other characters they're in this tragic story. 251 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:40.919 Okay, I mean, first of all, I just you know, 252 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:43.720 in Canada there's a lot that you have to change 253 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:46.799 the names of anybody who's charged as a minor, so 254 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:52.799 these aren't their real names. That there was the main girl. 255 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:55.399 There was a group home called seven Oak, which was 256 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:59.279 for girls that you know, needed its temporary shelter, girls 257 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:02.879 that have been kicked out of the house, sometimes waiting 258 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:05.120 for a foster home. Most of those girls probably all 259 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:08.000 of those girls had also been in and out of 260 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:12.639 the juvenile detention home and had some kind of you know, 261 00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:17.679 criminal background. And the main girl there was who I 262 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:23.600 call Josephine Bell, was a really interesting character. I don't 263 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:27.879 think anybody, you know, your audience probably come across this 264 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:31.120 type of character. But she is accepting, you know, maybe 265 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:38.120 a noir book. But she was very beautiful, blonde, you know, 266 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:45.679 ballerina kind of looks. But she had a really strong 267 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:49.440 desire to be a gangster, to be tough, to be, 268 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:53.399 to have you know, she literally had minions running around. 269 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:55.799 She would order them to go shop with for her. 270 00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:59.720 She really loved this idea of her reputation. 271 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:01.320 Judy was boring. 272 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:01.840 Hello. 273 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:06.400 Then Judy discovered chumpacasino dot com. It's my little escape. 274 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.839 Now Judy is the life of the party. Oh baby, 275 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.039 mama's bringing home the bacon. WHOA, take it easy, Judy, 276 00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:15.880 Jump the Chumba life is for everybody. So go to 277 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:19.200 chumpacasino dot com and play over one hundred casino style 278 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:21.960 games joined today and play for free for your chance 279 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:26.480 to redeem some serious prices. Jump chumpa Casino dot com. 280 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:28.640 Nopeas necessary, poly, We're promitted to by my eighteen plus 281 00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:30.720 terms and conditioned to play se whatsever details she. 282 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:34.359 Was considered you know somebody and people admired her and 283 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:37.359 were frightened of her, and part of that was a 284 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:41.480 bit fantasy, but part of it, you know, she she 285 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:45.759 was She did have a lot of authority and kind 286 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:48.920 of charisma, and she would steal cars and you know, 287 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:52.240 she's just kind of quote badass, but at the same 288 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:59.359 time very cheat and blonde and attractive, so she was 289 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:02.039 sort of them one that Rena was drawn to. Then 290 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:08.240 her sidekick was a girl I called Dusty, who was 291 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.960 from a large family. I think there was seven or 292 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.200 eight sisters, and she had been kicked out of the 293 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:19.640 house and been living all over the place and left. 294 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:21.640 She went to live with one of her sisters and 295 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:25.000 stole cars and there was just too much trouble, so 296 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:27.880 they sent her home and that's she ended up in 297 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:33.119 this group home. So she was not quite as sort 298 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:38.559 of crazy as a Josephine, but very legitimately tough, quite big, 299 00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:43.039 quite strong, constantly getting insights with people, and so those 300 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:45.640 two were really, you know, the worst pair of that 301 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:52.279 Arena could have met. She she while Dusty was living 302 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:54.839 out of town. Dusty and her were friends. I think 303 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:59.119 for a little bit while Dusty was away, she started 304 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:04.559 took up with Dusty's boyfriend, which infuriated Dustine was wearing 305 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:07.440 his coat. And then there was this incident where she 306 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.680 stole Josephine's notebook. So, I mean, it's very petty, and 307 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:15.720 I think that's part of why when the police first 308 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:18.839 heard heard about this, they were couldn't believe it because 309 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:22.480 the whole way these girls talked about their anger with 310 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:25.920 each other, you know, so classically adolescent, they were really 311 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:29.640 you know, genuinely immature. They were fourteen and fifteen and 312 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:34.000 fighting over boys and clothes and so. But then there 313 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:39.359 were this character Josephine had had quite a violent streak, 314 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.680 so she. 315 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.200 Became she was she a real leader though, sorry excuse me, 316 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:45.839 but was she a real leader of these girls? I 317 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:47.960 mean was she able? You said that she had she 318 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:51.240 had people shoplifting for, but was she really what they 319 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:53.079 were really they would look up to her and listen 320 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:53.400 to her. 321 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.319 I think within a small group. I think, you know, 322 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:01.920 she's within the small group. I think that she could, 323 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:06.519 she could orchestrat things. I mean, she was overheard before 324 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:11.039 the murderer, planning ways to kill Rena and you know, 325 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:14.480 discussing let's make a grace so she you know, she 326 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.720 had a authority over a viewism. 327 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:22.240 Okay, tell us the rest of the characters in this, 328 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.599 in this little group of people that are involved. We've 329 00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:29.559 we've mentioned Dusty, and we haven't mentioned Kelly Ellard, and 330 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:33.440 we haven't mentioned Srita, mentioned the other girls that are involved, 331 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:36.119 directly involved, and then we'll proceed from there. 332 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:40.160 Well, Kelly Allard which is her real name, because she 333 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:42.519 was tried as an adult, even though you know she 334 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:46.880 was the same age. She was Josephine's best friend. They've 335 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:50.799 been best friends for a long time and we're you know, 336 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:54.200 they describe each other as sisters. And she of all 337 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:56.880 of this group, including Rena, she came from the most 338 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:00.359 stable home and sort of the most middle class home, 339 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:04.160 and but that had always been I don't know always, 340 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:07.799 but recently had been showing kind of behaving violently, getting 341 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.839 in fights at school, getting kicked out of school. And 342 00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:18.079 so her and Josephine we were quite close, and I 343 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:23.640 guess that she she had never met Rina, she didn't 344 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:25.559 live in the group home, but when she heard about 345 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:28.880 Rena doing this to her friend. You know, Rena was 346 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:36.240 spreading rumors that Josephine had aids and h something about her, 347 00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:40.359 you know, her eyebrows or fake or so she was. 348 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:43.759 Well, the age rumor would be quite serious. That's a 349 00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:45.599 that's a quite serious allegation. 350 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:51.119 Yeah. Yeah, So so that this was like, you know, 351 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:55.720 a bad mix of people that Rena got involved with, 352 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:58.319 and they all sort of set off each other and 353 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:02.319 and the three girls and then there was a force. 354 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:04.839 Basically they you know, they set up a plan to 355 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:08.440 ben Aprina and lured her out, and then they invited 356 00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:13.519 a couple of other girls that were known for for fighting, 357 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:17.400 one girl with a kickbox champion and well and uh 358 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:20.200 so they they called around a lot of these girls 359 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:23.079 didn't didn't take up the offer, you know, but they 360 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:27.400 it was a very organized payback that they were planning. 361 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:32.079 Now what happens in your book? There is an interesting 362 00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:36.519 development that happens, Elaine Bell. You call it the conversation 363 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:40.359 her mother and if the mother heard there was some 364 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:44.480 talk about killing someone or killing Rena. Right, tell us 365 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:46.880 about when that conversation happened, and what happened in that 366 00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:49.519 conversation and what did Elaine bell Do as a result 367 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:50.440 of that conversation. 368 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:56.079 Yeah, that was a pretty stunning thing that there was 369 00:22:56.119 --> 00:22:59.759 a day that you know, Justine was came home from 370 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:03.559 the group home and went home to her mom and said, 371 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:05.599 I feel sick, and you know, she was not going 372 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:08.200 to school and was lying on the sofa and her 373 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:15.279 mother overheard her calling Kelly and talking about ways to 374 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:17.319 kill somebody. Let's dig a grave. 375 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:18.000 Yeah. 376 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.480 I think her mother, you know, was just hearing the 377 00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:23.359 one side of the conversation and her daughter was laughing 378 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:26.960 and let's dig a grave. Oh I couldn't do that. 379 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:30.920 And there was a lot of talk about burying her 380 00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:35.160 and covering her with leaves and giggling, and so you 381 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:39.160 would think that most mothers would you know, be stunned 382 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.440 and asked their daughter and give them a talking to. 383 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:46.039 And she just kind of took her daughter shopping after 384 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:47.680 that for some clothes. 385 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:52.400 As well as therapy. I mean, how did she ignore it? 386 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.160 How did she ignore it? She just thought, well, maybe 387 00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:57.240 a good a good shopping spree will help that kind of. 388 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:00.839 I mean, I think a recurrent thing with all these 389 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:05.279 parents that I witnessed and spoke to is just you 390 00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:07.799 don't know, if it's indifference or denial, but they just 391 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:14.119 did not deal with their kids really violence. 392 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:19.799 Yeah, I mean, now you you mentioned you touched on 393 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:22.839 the aids, So was that that was the that was 394 00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:25.880 the turning point was apparently that Rena had called and 395 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:28.039 said that Josephine had aids. 396 00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:29.920 Right, That's that's what happened. 397 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:31.720 I think that was one of them. I think, you know, 398 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:35.599 and she had the jacket of Dusky's boyfriend. And then 399 00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:37.799 there was a boy, an older boy in town that 400 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.440 these girls liked, and she had started calling him and 401 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:45.200