Speaker 1: Hudson River Radio dot Com.
Speaker 2: This is Travis Walton and you are listening to UFO
Speaker 2: Headquarters BEAUTIFU Headquarters.
Speaker 3: Well, good evening, everybody, and Linda, I'm gonna try to
Speaker 3: mimic that Welcome to Headquarters, UFO Headquarters Placement, and welcome
Speaker 3: everybody to another episode of UFO Headquarters here with Michael
Speaker 3: Warden and Linda Zimmerman. And Linda is is gonna ambush
Speaker 3: us again tonight, but she says I'm gonna be outraged
Speaker 3: during this one, So I'm ready. My outrage meter is
Speaker 3: is finely tuned at the moment.
Speaker 4: Yes, because this is a somewhat famous case that I
Speaker 4: admit I didn't know all the backstory on what happened
Speaker 4: to these witnesses who happen to be sheriff's deputies and cops.
Speaker 4: So we have numerous law enforcement officers who are treated
Speaker 4: appallingly at the end of this. So I assume you
Speaker 4: and Brian will have some outrage going here.
Speaker 5: So let's dive right in.
Speaker 4: I have I have a lot to talk about with
Speaker 4: this case. We are going back to April seventeenth, nineteen
Speaker 4: sixty six, near south of Ravenna, Ohio. It's five oh
Speaker 4: seven am. I checked sunrise. Sunrise didn't rise till five
Speaker 4: point fifteen, so it's those pre dawn hours. There are
Speaker 4: two deputy sheriffs in patrol car number thirteen. Unlucky thirteen.
Speaker 1: What a lucky number?
Speaker 4: Right, Dale Spore spell that spaur he served. He had
Speaker 4: previously served in the Air Force, so very familiar with aircraft.
Speaker 4: And the other deputy sheriff in the car was Wilbur Neff,
Speaker 4: whose nickname was Barney, probably from a popular television show.
Speaker 4: They're driving east, so if people want to open a
Speaker 4: map while we're talking about this or look later. They're
Speaker 4: going east on US two twenty four, which is south
Speaker 4: of Ravenna. On the side of the road, they stop
Speaker 4: because it looks to be an abandoned car. It's five
Speaker 4: o'clock in the morning. There's a car with no driver.
Speaker 4: They get out to look at it. It's a red
Speaker 4: and white nineteen fifty nine Ford Sedan. There's no one
Speaker 4: in there. It's very odd because it's filled with walkie
Speaker 4: talkies and rady all kinds of radio equipment. What's up
Speaker 4: with that and why would you leave that on the
Speaker 4: side of the road. You know in the car who knows.
Speaker 4: So it gets even stranger with this car. There is
Speaker 4: an insignia on the car of a triangle with a
Speaker 4: lightning bolt, and above that are the words seven steps
Speaker 4: to Hell. I mean, some weird person who collects audio
Speaker 4: equipment just abandons his car. I can skip ahead a little.
Speaker 4: Police searched for this car for over a year and
Speaker 4: never found it. It was gone later on, no info,
Speaker 4: And this car got a lot of publicity. This incident
Speaker 4: went across the country. And you're telling me no one
Speaker 4: could identify a red and white fifty nine Ford Sedan
Speaker 4: with the word seven steps to hell and this triangle
Speaker 4: and lightning bolt insignia, right, can't be too many of.
Speaker 1: Those that all suck out a little bit?
Speaker 4: Yes, so all very weird, which really has no bearing
Speaker 4: on the case, or maybe in some weird way it
Speaker 4: does because it got them to stop and get out
Speaker 4: of the car. And as they're standing there looking at
Speaker 4: this car, they hear a strange humming sound behind them
Speaker 4: in the woods, and up out of the trees rises
Speaker 4: a huge saucer shaped craft with an intense blue white light,
Speaker 4: And as the light got brighter, the pitch of the
Speaker 4: hum increased. I should have asked Brian to give us
Speaker 4: like an increasing pitch sound, but you get the you know, kid.
Speaker 5: You're the one with I don't have one.
Speaker 4: Oh, okay, I should have. I should have recorded some
Speaker 4: theoremone sounds. But interesting the brighter it got, and and
Speaker 4: actually later on uh Dale spor said he he got
Speaker 4: the impression that the craft was was sitting on this
Speaker 4: light like it was somehow being propelled, and the brighter
Speaker 4: the light got, the pitch increased, and the higher the
Speaker 4: craft got. Just interesting that that was his impression. So
Speaker 4: the craft unfortunately moves over directly above them and the
Speaker 4: two cars, and they are bathed in this light, which
Speaker 4: usually isn't a good thing for the people under the light.
Speaker 5: Correct.
Speaker 4: So Dale and Barney are basically standing there paralyzed. They
Speaker 4: can't move. The craft is only between fifty and one
Speaker 4: hundred feet above them. The size of the craft estimated
Speaker 4: between forty and fifty feet in diameter, about fifteen to
Speaker 4: twenty feet thick. As I said, it was disk shaped.
Speaker 4: There was a type of dome on the top and
Speaker 4: some sort of an antenna or they thought it was
Speaker 4: angled kind of angled out the back. So they are
Speaker 4: bathed in light which they said, kind of had a warm,
Speaker 4: pleasing heat. We've seen a lot of radiation with these cases,
Speaker 4: so we really don't want to be bathed in some
Speaker 4: side of something, you know, hot. No, it's also so bright.
Speaker 4: Their eyes are tearing. So picture this, these two deputy
Speaker 4: sheriffs standing there on the side of the road, a
Speaker 4: craft of forty fifty feet big. It's like a house
Speaker 4: about fifty feet above you shot beaming a light down
Speaker 4: and you are paralyzed.
Speaker 1: This is.
Speaker 4: Fascinating, but you really don't want to be in this situation.
Speaker 3: No, I'm glad it never happened to year career.
Speaker 4: So why don't we take a break at this point,
Speaker 4: because once we get started, we're not going to want
Speaker 4: to stop.
Speaker 2: Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 3: Hudson Riverradio dot com. And we're back here staring up
Speaker 3: and an object in the sky being bathed in very
Speaker 3: warm DNA destroying light and warm. That's really what ultimately
Speaker 3: happens with radiation.
Speaker 5: Not good, not good at all.
Speaker 4: No, so Dale desperately wants to get back into the car.
Speaker 4: He later said, I wanted to get something between me
Speaker 4: and it, and I do want to point out at
Speaker 4: no point you can listen to his excellent interview. It's
Speaker 4: available on YouTube. You should listen to this man clearly, succinctly,
Speaker 4: calmly explaining what happened. He never calls it a UFO.
Speaker 4: He calls it the vehicle or it. So he wants
Speaker 4: to get back into the car, he said, a thought
Speaker 4: came into his mind that if he touches the car,
Speaker 4: it will disappear. That's weird, but how many times have
Speaker 4: we heard witnesses say, well, I went to grab for
Speaker 4: my camera, but a thought came in my head, No,
Speaker 4: you can't photograph it, or it's they're messing with you.
Speaker 4: They're absolutely messing with your head. So the craft moves away,
Speaker 4: just a very short distance, but the light is off
Speaker 4: of them, and at that moment, it's like the spell
Speaker 4: is broken, and the two men instantly at the same
Speaker 4: time run to the car and get in. So as
Speaker 4: nerve racking as this is Dale Radio's the station, and
Speaker 4: they're saying, other calls are coming in. There's so many witnesses.
Speaker 4: In fact, by the end of this night, there will
Speaker 4: be hundreds of witnesses and numerous police officers. The guy
Speaker 4: who was on the radio at the station says, shoot it.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, I don't know who was that.
Speaker 3: Was it a dispatcher or was it a supervisor? I
Speaker 3: can't imagine.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 4: But at that moment, Dale gets another strange, powerful feeling
Speaker 4: like don't shoot it.
Speaker 1: That was a smart feeling.
Speaker 3: I'm just imagining whipping out at that time the revolver
Speaker 3: and you know, letting shots off at this mysterious object.
Speaker 5: No, no, it never does.
Speaker 4: And for those who haven't listened to that episode yet,
Speaker 4: we have a whole episode of people shooting at UFOs.
Speaker 5: I can't recall what it was.
Speaker 4: Called, but we have an old people have done it,
Speaker 4: and it's usually not a good thing. So then their
Speaker 4: sergeant gets on the radio, Sergeant Seanfeld, and as the
Speaker 4: craft is moving away, he orders them to chase it.
Speaker 4: All right, So if your sergeant is telling you to
Speaker 4: do something, you do it. You go after it. So
Speaker 4: the craft takes off and they take off after it.
Speaker 5: Okay.
Speaker 4: So again, if you are looking at a map, they
Speaker 4: are going on two twenty four east to route forty
Speaker 4: four to west one p eighty three, So you can chart,
Speaker 4: and people have drawn the course of the map if
Speaker 4: you want. You know, some people like driving the path
Speaker 4: of UFOs. I can't imagine who that would be except
Speaker 4: maybe me, But it gives you a sense, you know,
Speaker 4: when you trace the path of these things. So they're
Speaker 4: continuing eastward toward Pennsylvania, and you know there's on ramps
Speaker 4: and off ramps and intersections and all this, and they
Speaker 4: think that we're going to lose this craft because it's
Speaker 4: moving about eighty some odd miles per hour. By the
Speaker 4: time they do this on the connecting highways, they think
Speaker 4: it would be gone. But pay very close attention to this.
Speaker 4: The craft would slow down and wait for them to
Speaker 4: catch up.
Speaker 5: Comments.
Speaker 3: That's like patt and mouse here, Like they're very aware
Speaker 3: of what's going on. Like I'll let you get close enough,
Speaker 3: then I'll get far ahead enough, and then I'll wait again,
Speaker 3: like almost like you know that leap frog. But I'm
Speaker 3: never going to, like quite let you catch up. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it'd be a bad sign to me. I think that
Speaker 3: would be they're messing with us intentionally. They can do
Speaker 3: what else? What else can they do?
Speaker 4: Yes, so clearly it's not an intelligent weather balloon, so
Speaker 4: we can we can knock that right up.
Speaker 1: But is it swamp gas?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, it's very intelligent swamp gas waiting for them.
Speaker 4: So they're going about eighty three miles an hour and
Speaker 4: it increases to one hundred and three miles per hour.
Speaker 4: That's those are some dangerous speeds you're you're hitting there now.
Speaker 4: At the Berlin Reservoir, the craft rose to a height
Speaker 4: of about five hundred feet and beamed a light down
Speaker 4: on objects like it seemed fascinated by a crane. So
Speaker 4: it's clearly checking things out. It's searching. They also made
Speaker 4: the comment it made this craft made no effort to
Speaker 4: leave us. Okay, So they're going one hundred and three
Speaker 4: miles through the town of Unity, Pennsylvania, and the craft
Speaker 4: again lowers down to look around. So these these are
Speaker 4: Ohio deputy sheriffs. They've now crossed the line into Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3: I can't say I haven't crossed the line a few
Speaker 3: times in the Pennsylvania here, but I worked on the border, so.
Speaker 1: It was legit chasing a UFO.
Speaker 3: But I mean to chase it this far at these speeds,
Speaker 3: I am I just again, I don't know anything about
Speaker 3: this story. I can't wait to see what you're going
Speaker 3: to outrage us with.
Speaker 4: Yes, So at this point they are joined by a
Speaker 4: third officer from East Palestine, Ohio.
Speaker 5: Is that name ring a Bell?
Speaker 4: That is in twenty twenty three, that enormous toxic train wreck. Yes, yep,
Speaker 4: that was the town and I looked that up and
Speaker 4: they were the town was supposed to get six hundred
Speaker 4: million dollars in a settlement, but that's under appeal. So
Speaker 4: these poor people are still way for something after this,
Speaker 4: all this toxic stuff trashed their town. So anyway, it
Speaker 4: was patrolman Wayne Houston. So now he's driving like a
Speaker 4: bat out of hell chasing this craft as well. So
Speaker 4: Dale and Barney are advised to break off pursuit now
Speaker 4: that another officer has taken up the chase. But basically
Speaker 4: they said hell no, they wanted to identify it, and
Speaker 4: Dale admitted he was compelled to follow this thing. You know,
Speaker 4: we've talked to so many people.
Speaker 5: You are enthralled.
Speaker 4: You're not going to say, okay, I'm gonna leave and
Speaker 4: go home now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I wouldn't have.
Speaker 3: Just for the record, I mean, even if I say,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm glad he didn't have to encounter it.
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure under the circumstances, I just wouldn't have
Speaker 3: heard the radio must be a dead zone. Radio dead
Speaker 3: zone here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're breaking up, don't exactly right. So they continue
Speaker 4: the chase along with patrolman Wayne Houston. And I should
Speaker 4: point out at this point that there is chatter all
Speaker 4: over the radio. Police are seeing this for miles and miles,
Speaker 4: and they none of Dale Barney and Wayne Houston did
Speaker 4: not have cameras. Police officers with cameras are driving like
Speaker 4: mad trying to catch up so they can photograph. So
Speaker 4: you can imagine police forces people from all around are
Speaker 4: trying to converge on this craft. In Rochester, Pennsylvania. There
Speaker 4: is a maze.
Speaker 5: They said.
Speaker 4: It was like a spider web of bridges and overpasses,
Speaker 4: and Wayne is directing them how to drive and you know,
Speaker 4: go up and around and through. It took them so
Speaker 4: long to navigate through them. They were sure this time
Speaker 4: that the craft was long gone, and the three of
Speaker 4: them were absolutely shocked, as was Wayne is starting to say, oh, well,
Speaker 4: it has to be, you know, long gone. He stopped
Speaker 4: in mid sentence because there was the craft hovering over
Speaker 4: the highway waiting for them.
Speaker 3: Is this very a very intelligent encounter? Yes, this is
Speaker 3: without the patrol officers even being aware of this intelligence.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of creepy.
Speaker 5: It is.
Speaker 4: It is majorly creepy. And once they caught up, it
Speaker 4: took off again and went right back to exactly one
Speaker 4: hundred and three miles per hour. I guess it figured
Speaker 4: that's about as fast as they could safely go. Oh
Speaker 4: in Freedom, Pennsylvania. Near Freedom in Conway, another police vehicle
Speaker 4: with Officer Frank Panzanella is sitting there watching the craft.
Speaker 4: He calls the station and he wants to join in,
Speaker 4: and as I said, many other patrol cars but they
Speaker 4: meet up with Frank Panzanello there. They're all watching. So
Speaker 4: now there's four police officers, the craft is slowed down,
Speaker 4: they're all stopped watching it. This from the time Sergeant
Speaker 4: Schoenfeld told Dale and Barney to chase it to the
Speaker 4: time there stopped watching it with Frank Panzanella, they traveled
Speaker 4: a distance of eighty six miles in eighty five minutes.
Speaker 1: That's incredible.
Speaker 4: Is this one of the most incredible. Uh, you know,
Speaker 4: we hear about people chasing UFOs, even cops chasing UFOs,
Speaker 4: But eighty six miles through Ohio and into Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's just I would not have guessed it was
Speaker 3: that far if you had asked me to kind of
Speaker 3: come up with a ballpark number.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you kind of get though. They're driving fast. They're
Speaker 5: gonna go a few miles.
Speaker 1: Miles away. No, No, eighty six miles.
Speaker 4: Eighty six miles of high speed chasing. This is this
Speaker 4: is one for the record books. Again, tons of chatter
Speaker 4: over the radio, and they hear that there are three
Speaker 4: They are told over the radio that it has been
Speaker 4: seen on radar, there's radar contacts, and that three fighter
Speaker 4: jets have been scrambled to intercept the object. In fact,
Speaker 4: at least two police officers in Ohio, Lonnie Johnson and
Speaker 4: Ray Esterly, saw these three fighter jets trying to intercept
Speaker 4: this object. So we had numerous witnesses to the craft hundreds,
Speaker 4: and we have numerous witnesses of these three fighter jets
Speaker 4: heading trying to intercept the craft. And so the jets
Speaker 4: are starting to get closer and as they do again
Speaker 4: we've seen this, the craft shoots straight up until it's
Speaker 4: just a point of light. It sat there for a
Speaker 4: few minutes and then was gone and that's the end
Speaker 4: of the chase. So one of the most remarkable encounters
Speaker 4: I can think of.
Speaker 3: It's like it knew, Okay, now they got whatever these
Speaker 3: aircraft are, this is bad.
Speaker 1: Like now I'm leaving right.
Speaker 3: I can't mess with them the same way I can
Speaker 3: mess with what's on the ground. I mean, it just
Speaker 3: it really goes to like what what was driving this?
Speaker 3: What type of intelligence is behind this?
Speaker 1: And why?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And what was their endgame?
Speaker 3: Were they going to just keep drawing these cops across
Speaker 3: Pennsylvania further? Were they just going to keep going and
Speaker 3: going and going if they hadn't been intercepted by fighter jets.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I it sounds that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: But so now you have the story of that night
Speaker 4: early morning, before we get into all the repercussions. Why
Speaker 4: don't we take our second break.
Speaker 2: This is Hudson River.
Speaker 5: Radio dot Com.
Speaker 4: This is Hudson River Radio dot Com.
Speaker 1: I just have to touch on something, Linda. You described this.
Speaker 3: Crazy chase eighty six miles across Ohio into Pennsylvania. This
Speaker 3: this object toying with the police on the ground and
Speaker 3: doesn't really take off and disappear until fighter jets arrive.
Speaker 3: But you know, right before the break, you left with
Speaker 3: a very important word, and that was the repercussions, and
Speaker 3: Brian and I both know what that means. The boss
Speaker 3: has got involved. The next day, my heart, I had
Speaker 3: that heart sink for a moment.
Speaker 1: I knew exactly what it meant.
Speaker 4: Yes, and if it was only just the bosses, but
Speaker 4: wait till you here.
Speaker 3: They're about to get and explained to me and writing
Speaker 3: type of message.
Speaker 4: So when Dale and Barney get back, they everyone describes
Speaker 4: Dale as being very, very pale, his hands are shaking.
Speaker 4: He's normally well spoken, and again I urge you to
Speaker 4: check out his interview on YouTube. He is normally very
Speaker 4: well spoken. He is stuttering, he's in shock. He just
Speaker 4: plain in shock. But we're going to get to him
Speaker 4: later now, Barney, later on he kind of downplays, well, yeah,
Speaker 4: Dale was upset.
Speaker 5: By it, but you know I was fine. Yeah, not
Speaker 5: so much.
Speaker 4: His wife jack Lean said, I hope I never see
Speaker 4: him like he was after the chase. He was real white,
Speaker 4: almost in a state of shock. It was awful, and
Speaker 4: people made fun of him afterwards. He never talked about
Speaker 4: it anymore. Once he told me, if that thing landed
Speaker 4: in my backyard, I wouldn't tell a soul. He couldn't
Speaker 4: take it. The ridicule, the stress. He moved to Florida.
Speaker 4: For years, they couldn't nobody could find out where he was.
Speaker 4: He ended up remarrying and someone finally tracked him down
Speaker 4: forty years lay in twenty in two thousand and four,
Speaker 4: and all he would say was when I left Ohio, Ohio,
Speaker 4: I got away from it all. So this guy's just
Speaker 4: sitting in a car, the patrol car. His sergeant tells
Speaker 4: him to chase it.
Speaker 5: He does. He makes an.
Speaker 4: Accurate report of what happened. Remember, hundreds of people saw this,
Speaker 4: but the pressure on him, so he leaves his career.
Speaker 4: He lost his wife, and he has to move to
Speaker 4: another state. Okay, sounds about right, Yeah right, so's.
Speaker 6: I don't think either Mike or I are surprised about.
Speaker 5: That, Okay.
Speaker 4: And that's Officer number one, Okay, the Wayne Houston, who
Speaker 4: was the East Palestine patrolman. Seven years on the job.
Speaker 4: He is hounded and ridiculed so severely for two weeks.
Speaker 4: Reporters are calling him night and day. He's ridiculed in public.
Speaker 4: His police chief is furious because he left his jurisdiction.
Speaker 4: So he's getting it from the general public, from the media,
Speaker 4: and from his pollute. And as we all know, when
Speaker 4: your police chief is not happy, no one's happy.
Speaker 5: Yes, so.
Speaker 4: May first, just two weeks after the incident, he resigns.
Speaker 4: Seven years on the job and because he saw a UFO,
Speaker 4: he has to resign. He moved to Seattle and became
Speaker 4: a bus driver. He even changed his name. He used
Speaker 4: to go by Wayne Houston. His real first name was Harold.
Speaker 4: He dropped the Wayne and went to Harold, so changed
Speaker 4: his name, resigned, and moved across the country to Seattle.
Speaker 4: He died in twenty sixteen. So officer number two, whose
Speaker 4: life is and if not ruined, completely upended in Conway
Speaker 4: Patrolman Frank Panzanella. In a few months, he changed to
Speaker 4: the Ambridge Police Department. Then he shifted again to the
Speaker 4: Sheriff's department and became a detective. And I apparently had
Speaker 4: a decent career only because after the first statement he
Speaker 4: gave that very night, he absolutely refused to talk.
Speaker 5: About it ever again.
Speaker 4: So because he kept his mouth shut after the initial night,
Speaker 4: he switched departments twice, but he didn't have to change
Speaker 4: his name and move out of state. He died in
Speaker 4: twenty fourteen, so we can't talk to him. So somebody
Speaker 4: I hadn't mentioned yet. A chief of police, Gerald Butchert
Speaker 4: in Ohio, saw the craft, ran inside, told his wife
Speaker 4: come out and see this.
Speaker 5: She did.
Speaker 4: He grabbed a camera and he took photographs of it. Okay,
Speaker 4: so word gets out. He is hounded day and night,
Speaker 4: and in a couple of weeks he loses twenty pounds
Speaker 4: because of the stress. Yes, he has his film developed
Speaker 4: and when he's certain he captured the object clearly, then
Speaker 4: he contacts authorities. And for those of you who are
Speaker 4: familiar with Project blue Book, the name Major Hecta Kintinia
Speaker 4: will be familiar because he was the head of Blue Book.
Speaker 4: And the major told, now, there's a major in the
Speaker 4: Air Force telling a chief of police, only release a
Speaker 4: grainy print to the newspapers and send me the negatives.
Speaker 3: Comments Mike, please please tell me that the chief didn't
Speaker 3: listen to him.
Speaker 1: At least he kept the negatives.
Speaker 4: He sent the negatives. Oh, okay, bad idea. So the
Speaker 4: official Air Force report, now these were clear images, great negatives.
Speaker 4: Their report stated quote negatives were severely fogged. Object was
Speaker 4: a processing defect. So, according to.
Speaker 5: The air nothing to see here. Move along.
Speaker 4: Kintonia then told Chief Butcher that he saw. Guess I'll
Speaker 4: give you one. Guess what he said, The Chief of
Speaker 4: police saw, Yes.
Speaker 3: Give we need to make bingo cards. We really do know,
Speaker 3: I know we kept talking about it, but.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but every spot would be Venus.
Speaker 1: Terrible.
Speaker 4: Yes, so he's yes. So he's telling this man, you
Speaker 4: saw the planet Venus, and Butcher replies, well, if it
Speaker 4: was a planet, why did it move up and down
Speaker 4: from side to side and it even went beneath the
Speaker 4: telephone wires, to which Kintonia replied that was the result
Speaker 4: of atmospheric conditions. Do you just want to reach back
Speaker 4: through time and smack this guy in the face.
Speaker 1: I do, I really do.
Speaker 4: It's so outrageous. So the pressure on the poor chief
Speaker 4: of police. He knows what he saw, his wife saw it,
Speaker 4: hundreds of people saw it, he photographed it, clearly knew
Speaker 4: it was Venus, and you saw it moving all around.
Speaker 4: That's because atmospheric conditions, Yes, because different atmospheric conditions can
Speaker 4: make the planet Venus come to your hometown and go
Speaker 4: under the telephone wires.
Speaker 5: It's just maddening.
Speaker 4: So he came that close to resigning. He was so upset,
Speaker 4: so outraged, so humiliated, but he said, screw them, I'm
Speaker 4: weathering the storm. He kept a scrap book of every
Speaker 4: single article anything published on this His son, Harry, inherited
Speaker 4: the scrap book and also became chief of police of
Speaker 4: that same department. And he still wants to clear his
Speaker 4: father's good name and reputation. And good for him. I
Speaker 4: don't blame him. The government owes a public apology to
Speaker 4: this family and all the other families as well.
Speaker 1: Agreed, You think we can get him on the show.
Speaker 3: Oh, because his father's name does deserve to be clear.
Speaker 4: Harry butchered. Yes, let's get on that. If anybody knows him,
Speaker 4: or if he's listening, per chance, get in touch with us. Absolutely.
Speaker 4: I'd love to know what's in that scrap book. And
Speaker 4: the other thing, I'd love to know what happened to
Speaker 4: those negatives, right right, probably shredded or burned.
Speaker 1: Well, that's what makes you laugh.
Speaker 3: If number one, they're convinced it's venus, why are they
Speaker 3: asked him to only release a grainy photo?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: And number two, why do they want the negatives?
Speaker 5: Yes, that's a very good point.
Speaker 1: Because they know something was happening.
Speaker 3: And one two they're going to cover up the evidence
Speaker 3: without the negatives, what are you going to do?
Speaker 1: Yep, you have nothing.
Speaker 5: Yep.
Speaker 4: So the official project blue Book report is ninety one pages.
Speaker 5: Now, I've gone.
Speaker 4: Through a lot of blue Book reports and there are
Speaker 4: are six seven pages maybe the standard forms ninety one
Speaker 4: pages on Venus. Wow, if you look through it, and
Speaker 4: there are websites that have the blue book cases numerous
Speaker 4: very detailed statements from people. Okay, but the conclusion is
Speaker 4: these people first saw the Echo satellite moving through the sky. Okay,
Speaker 4: a satellite which is a little higher then tree top level.
Speaker 4: I mean, come on, and then and then they were
Speaker 4: fooled by the planet Venus. So Dale Sporr became the
Speaker 4: nut who recklessly drove one hundred and three miles per
Speaker 4: hour chasing the planet Venus. I will get to more
Speaker 4: of what they did to this. Yes, he became the
Speaker 4: poster boy for all the crazy UFO people. According to
Speaker 4: the government. They also said absolutely no jets were scrambled,
Speaker 4: despite numerous witnesses, including police officers, who said, yeah, we
Speaker 4: saw the three jets going after the UFO. Nope, nope,
Speaker 4: didn't happen. They also said absolutely no radar contacts were
Speaker 4: made even though statements as it was happening, we're saying
Speaker 4: we have it on radar. Nope, didn't happen.
Speaker 5: Okay, outraged enough, Oh I'm getting there.
Speaker 4: Okay, So let's get to poor Dale Spore. Non stop
Speaker 4: interviews Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Washington, d C. The
Speaker 4: Voice of America, which you know was an international thing,
Speaker 4: the Air Force for Project Blue Book. It was just NonStop. Fortunately,
Speaker 4: Raymond Fowler of NYCAP interviewed him extensively, as did Whitezel
Speaker 4: of NICAP. And this Raymond Fowler. If you don't know him,
Speaker 4: look him up. He's done tremendous work for decades. This
Speaker 4: became one of the best documented cases to this point.
Speaker 4: Hundreds of witnesses, numerous police photos, radar. They did an
Speaker 4: amazing job documenting all of this. Okay, So how do
Speaker 4: you combat hundreds of witnesses and all of these statements.
Speaker 5: You focus.
Speaker 4: If you're the government and you suck, you are going
Speaker 4: after Dale's Spoor because if you can discredit him, you
Speaker 4: can discredit you discredit this whole case. So clearly he's
Speaker 4: already suffering from PTSD from whatever happened. We don't know
Speaker 4: how long they stood in that road. In the initial
Speaker 4: sighting with that craft over them, was their missing time?
Speaker 4: Did more happen than just a bright light shining on them?
Speaker 4: He couldn't sleep, he was having nightmares. He was reliving
Speaker 4: the chase over and over and over, and even in
Speaker 4: his nightmares. He goes to get in his car and
Speaker 4: his car disappears. So he is just haunted by all
Speaker 4: of this. He starts just taking off for days at
Speaker 4: a time.
Speaker 5: He can't take it.
Speaker 4: He's losing weight, He's on the edge, and unfortunately he
Speaker 4: and his I don't think his wife was very sympathetic.
Speaker 4: He and his wife, Denise get into an argument. He
Speaker 4: grabs her by the arms and shakes her and it
Speaker 4: leaves bruises on her arms. She presses charges. He is
Speaker 4: charged with abuse and arrested, and now he loses his job,
Speaker 4: he loses his wife and kids, and he is the
Speaker 4: nut who chased Venus and beats his wife. This is
Speaker 4: all in the course of a couple of months. Six
Speaker 4: months later, there's this amazing article. You can find it online.
Speaker 4: It went I think the Associated Press sent it or
Speaker 4: some other service sent this article across the Cune and
Speaker 4: it was highlighting Dale living in a cheap motel about
Speaker 4: twenty miles away in Solon, Ohio. At this point, he
Speaker 4: has lost forty pounds and he wasn't a big guy
Speaker 4: to begin with. He's he's ordered to go to court
Speaker 4: because he didn't pay a fifty cent parking ticket. They're
Speaker 4: doing whatever they can to harass and continue to humiliate him.
Speaker 4: His car is repossessed, his wife files for divorce. He
Speaker 4: has to walk three miles to a to a painting
Speaker 4: job at eighty dollars a week. His rundown little motel
Speaker 4: is sixty a week. His child support is twenty dollars
Speaker 4: a week. That leaves him zero. He says, at thirty
Speaker 4: four years old, he has looked upon as a freak.
Speaker 4: His his only food is a bowl of cereal and
Speaker 4: a sandwich every day because he has no money. Apparently
Speaker 4: no one's helping him. He's just a shell of his
Speaker 4: former self. Alone, lonely, ridiculed. He cries all the time.
Speaker 4: He's depressed. He said, my entire life came crashing down
Speaker 4: around my shoulders. If I could change one thing, it
Speaker 4: would be that I didn't follow that craft. So this
Speaker 4: is all he did. He got in his car. His
Speaker 4: sergeant told him to follow it. He did, and he
Speaker 4: filed an accurate, level headed report saying something that hundreds
Speaker 4: of other people said, and yet they just targeted him.
Speaker 4: His wife said, something happened to Dale, but I don't
Speaker 4: know what it was. He came home that day and
Speaker 4: I never saw him more frightened before. He acted strange, listless.
Speaker 4: He just sat around and people hounded him. They hounded
Speaker 4: him to death. He changed. So in the midst of
Speaker 4: all this horror, his father, who long ago they had
Speaker 4: had some sort of disagreement and they hadn't talked for years,
Speaker 4: and his father calls him, Okay, you think thank god
Speaker 4: a port in the storm?
Speaker 5: Oh no?
Speaker 4: And Dale says, do you think my father called me
Speaker 4: to ask how I was, or to say I love you,
Speaker 4: or to see if I wanted to go fishing? Hell no,
Speaker 4: he wanted to know if I'd seen any more flying saucers.
Speaker 1: Wow?
Speaker 4: Right, His own dad has to twist the knife after
Speaker 4: years of not talking, he has to call to just
Speaker 4: rub salt in the wound. So you figure you can
Speaker 4: at least go to a church, you know, talk to
Speaker 4: a clergyman. This poor man is desperate, he needs help,
Speaker 4: so he goes to this church, and his first day there,
Speaker 4: the minister introduces him to the entire congregation as the
Speaker 4: man who chased the flying saucer, even the church.
Speaker 5: Can you believe this?
Speaker 1: This is just.
Speaker 3: It's like I I don't even know what to say
Speaker 3: to it. I feel so like heartbroken for this guy.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, so he's I'm surprised. I'm honestly surprised he
Speaker 4: didn't take some drastic measures because he just figured my
Speaker 4: entire life is over. Everybody's against me for what because
Speaker 4: he saw a UFO and then like some God, send uh.
Speaker 4: The reporter who wrote that article about him being alone
Speaker 4: and depressed tracks him down and brings him a stack
Speaker 4: of letters and some money. Because people across the country
Speaker 4: read this article and had the same reaction, you are heartbroken.
Speaker 4: I just want to take the time to read a
Speaker 4: few of the Excuse me from Birmingham. From Birmingham, Alabama,
Speaker 4: I am fifteen years old. It broke my heart when
Speaker 4: I read the article about Dale spor I am asking
Speaker 4: if you will send him the enclosed two dollars, which
Speaker 4: is my allowance for the week. I mean, that's wonderful.
Speaker 4: From Indiana. I don't quite know how or what to say,
Speaker 4: I do know that. When I read the story, I cried. Tucson, Arizona,
Speaker 4: Surfside Beach, South Carolina, Ogden, Utah. I have just finished
Speaker 4: your story about mister Spore. For the life of me,
Speaker 4: I can't tell you why I am writing, except I
Speaker 4: feel terribly sorry for this man al Many, New York.
Speaker 4: I really think the Air Force should help this man
Speaker 4: because they are partly to blame telling him he did
Speaker 4: not see something unusual when he knows he did. Yeah,
Speaker 4: don't hold your breath there, the Air Force who wanted
Speaker 4: him destroyed.
Speaker 3: You know what strikes me when you're reading these is
Speaker 3: the first one, the fifteen year old who sends them
Speaker 3: the two dollars allowance showed more compassion in humanity than
Speaker 3: how many than his up and so called people you
Speaker 3: should be able to trust, like a minister.
Speaker 5: Or your father or your wife.
Speaker 3: A fifteen year old, Yes, yeah, the biggest adult in
Speaker 3: the room here.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so far.
Speaker 4: There's a few more, because these are these are wonder Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 4: Here's a dollar for Dale's Spore. If anyone, if everyone
Speaker 4: just sent him one dollar, it would do the job. California, Escondido.
Speaker 4: Let me know if there's anything I can do for
Speaker 4: you a couple more, because we need something good to
Speaker 4: come out of this. A woman who just signed the letter,
Speaker 4: a working girl, sent sixty dollars. I mean that's a lot.
Speaker 4: It's probably her week's pay.
Speaker 5: She said.
Speaker 4: This poor man is reduced to so much degradation by
Speaker 4: the ignorance of his fellow man and the thoughtlessness and
Speaker 4: harassment of the press and the TV people. I mean,
Speaker 4: reduced to such degradation by the ignorance of fellow man,
Speaker 4: which is what you were just alluding to. Yeah, I
Speaker 4: hope this will help. Please tell him that some of
Speaker 4: us realize it is possible, that is life on other planets,
Speaker 4: and tell him not to give up. An elderly couple
Speaker 4: from Ashtabulah, Ohio, mailed him ten dollars, and that's a
Speaker 4: lot of money for you know. Somebody in Dallas, Texas
Speaker 4: sent five dollars. It's not much, but I hope it
Speaker 4: will help. People sending prayers from Shreveport from Tulsa. A
Speaker 4: sixteen year old girl in Fort Lauderdale. I don't think
Speaker 4: he's a crackpot or a nut. I feel very sorry
Speaker 4: for this man. Nashville Grand Junction Colorado, Molina, Georgia. It
Speaker 4: just went on and on and on, and it was
Speaker 4: it was like a lifeline finally thrown to this poor man.
Speaker 4: And it came at a great time because he tore
Speaker 4: a ligament in his shoulder and couldn't work. So this
Speaker 4: money kept him afloat.
Speaker 5: And the.
Speaker 4: Journalist, you know, said, how do you respond to all that?
Speaker 4: He was just overwhelmed. You can imagine in tears, he said,
Speaker 4: people really do care, don't they. And that's enough for me.
Speaker 4: So it got him on the other side of that
Speaker 4: horrible six month time. I mean, you just can't imagine
Speaker 4: what this man went through for what. He didn't say
Speaker 4: they were little green men. He didn't say they were Martians.
Speaker 4: He didn't say they took him to Venus. He just said,
Speaker 4: I followed orders, I followed the UFO. Here's my report.
Speaker 5: So he does.
Speaker 4: It's still a lot of bad years. He moved around
Speaker 4: a lot, He had a lot of odd jobs, sometimes
Speaker 4: only lasting a week. As soon as somebody found out
Speaker 4: who he was, he'd have to leave. He finally went
Speaker 4: back home to his home state of West Virginia, to anstead,
Speaker 4: and he said from that point he never looked up
Speaker 4: at the sky at night. Again, he just didn't want
Speaker 4: to see anything. He remarried a woman named Ruth that
Speaker 4: by all accounts she was very good to him and
Speaker 4: him to her. But in nineteen eighty four he died
Speaker 4: at just the age of fifty two. Probably you know,
Speaker 4: this whole incident just.
Speaker 5: Wore him out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the mental, physical stress of it. And yeah, clearly
Speaker 3: from some of the things you described to those dreams
Speaker 3: had pete. He has stee from it. Right, So this
Speaker 3: poor guy.
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, So in nineteen seventy seven a journalist
Speaker 4: tracked him down, and I will end on this quote.
Speaker 4: He said, you live on the hope that someday the
Speaker 4: real story will be accepted, just the facts. I'll go
Speaker 4: to my grave before I change my story. I can
Speaker 4: live with that saucer, but I can't live without the truth.
Speaker 4: So round of applause to Dale Spore. It cost him
Speaker 4: his career, his health, his wife, and kids, probably cut
Speaker 4: his life short by many years, but he wasn't going
Speaker 4: to compromise on the truth. And so in my mind,
Speaker 4: this guy was a hero and was essentially crucified for it.
Speaker 3: And this is why when we look back, thankfully it's
Speaker 3: gotten better. But why people didn't report UFOs, especially that
Speaker 3: were in positions of authority like cops and you know,
Speaker 3: firemen back back, you know, forty fifty sixty years ago,
Speaker 3: because of this type of ridicule in the fear of
Speaker 3: it ruining your life. And here we have living, you know,
Speaker 3: physical evidence and proof that that had happened. People did
Speaker 3: have reason to be fearful. Yeah, coming forward, And this
Speaker 3: was a guy doing his job reporting what he saw,
Speaker 3: not just like, hey, I saw something last night and
Speaker 3: look what it did to him. Yeah, the message was
Speaker 3: not necessarily to him, it was to everybody else, like
Speaker 3: if if you open your mouth, you're this is what
Speaker 3: your life is going to look like.
Speaker 4: Too, exactly. He was being made an example of. And
Speaker 4: by destroying him, you sent, as you said, you sent
Speaker 4: a message to everyone else. Yeah you want to report
Speaker 4: what you saw, Look what happened to this guy. So yeah,
Speaker 4: my heart breaks for this this man. Hopefully he did
Speaker 4: find some peace at the end. But those other police resigning,
Speaker 4: moving across the country, changing their names, losing their wives
Speaker 4: over what I mean, it's it's heartbreaking. Brian, Do we
Speaker 4: have a comment from you with all this?
Speaker 6: I hate to say it but none of that surprises me.
Speaker 6: It's unfortunate. I think now it would be a little better,
Speaker 6: like Mike was saying, but none of it really surprises me.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so sad though, so sad.
Speaker 4: So if the government isn't apologizing, I would like to
Speaker 4: for the government of the United States apologize to these
Speaker 4: people and their families for what they went through. Hopefully
Speaker 4: someday the truth will come out the well we know
Speaker 4: what the truth is. There were so many witnesses, But
Speaker 4: I think that's a great idea. If his son, the
Speaker 4: police chief's son, is still with us, it would be
Speaker 4: great to speak with him. And if you happen to
Speaker 4: see it, I would love to hear that. April seventeenth,
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty six, hundreds of people did.
Speaker 5: That's it.
Speaker 4: That is my outrage episode. I was just getting so
Speaker 4: steamed the more I looked up, you know, articles, and
Speaker 4: but listen, I definitely urge people to go to YouTube.
Speaker 4: Look up Dale's spor spa u r UFO interview and
Speaker 4: it's about an hour long and he's he's perfectly rational,
Speaker 4: he's describing it exactly. It's it's worth listening to and
Speaker 4: then it will just make you all the more upset
Speaker 4: to realize what they did to this guy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm broken hearted for him still, Like I just depressed.
Speaker 3: I'm not even making my normal. I like have nothing
Speaker 3: even add that I think can can soften the moment.
Speaker 1: It's just horrible.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yep.
Speaker 4: And how many other people as this happened to over
Speaker 4: the years, not as well documented pilots who lose you know,
Speaker 4: lose their flight status. You don't have to go to
Speaker 4: a desk job or just out and out get fired.
Speaker 3: He's one of the many that that suffered, but just
Speaker 3: one of the few that we know about, right, I think,
Speaker 3: I think that's the way I look at it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely, So that is it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, no cute comments do I have, because this
Speaker 4: is just a very solemn episode. But you know, look
Speaker 4: that there's a lot of information on this. This is
Speaker 4: a case everyone should know about and use this as
Speaker 4: an example. You know, anytime people say, oh, you know,
Speaker 4: it's nothing has changed. Not everything has changed, but certainly
Speaker 4: you know when when Air Force or Navy pilots can
Speaker 4: now go into Congress and make a statement, we have
Speaker 4: come a long way since nineteen sixty six.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we definitely have to appreciate where we are today
Speaker 3: versus where we were forty fifty sixty years ago. Yeah,
Speaker 3: there's still a long way to go, but there's been
Speaker 3: leaps and strides in the reporting and the confidence and
Speaker 3: reporting and the protections. At least that's what it appears
Speaker 3: to be.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, so there we have it. Take us away.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you Linda for depressing but you know in
Speaker 3: episode of UPO Headquarters. However, I want to thank everybody
Speaker 3: out there for listening to this episode in all of
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