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We're prohibited by long eighteen plus terms 23 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:00.520 and conditions applag see website for details. 24 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:22.840 You are now listening to True Murder, The Most Shocking 25 00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:25.959 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 26 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:33.599 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker Bck. Every week, 27 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:37.599 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 28 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:41.640 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 29 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:44.519 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 30 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:56.280 Good evening, This is your host Stan Zupaski for the 31 00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:59.400 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 32 00:01:59.480 --> 00:02:03.480 History and the authors that have written about them. True 33 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:07.000 crime author ron chepsik uncovers one of the biggest cons 34 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.800 in the history of the international drug trade with his 35 00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:14.159 book Sergeant Smack, The Legendary Lives and Times of Ike Akittsen, 36 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:18.639 Kingpin and his Band of Brothers. Sergeant Smack details a 37 00:02:18.680 --> 00:02:21.719 true legend of Ike Akittsen, one of the biggest black 38 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:26.159 drug traffickers in US history. Atkinson pioneered some of the 39 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:29.840 most innovative methods used in international drug smuggling. They ranged 40 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:32.199 from duffel and a wall bags to the U. S 41 00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:35.520 Army postal system, to the use of unsuspecting crew chiefs 42 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:40.400 who operated military aircraft transporting teakwood furniture. But contrary to 43 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:43.800 popular belief, Atkinson's methods did not include the bogus cadaver 44 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:48.400 heroin smuggling connection conspiracy exploited by Frank Lucas in Hollywood's 45 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:53.400 blockbuster film American Gangster. The film not only distorted Atkinson's 46 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:57.039 historical role in the international drug trade, but falsely depicted 47 00:02:57.080 --> 00:03:01.240 Lucas as the pioneer of the Asian heroin connection. As 48 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.759 the book conclusively shows the conspiracies a hoax, as is 49 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:09.639 Frank Lucas's claim of participation with Ike in the conspiracy. 50 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:14.960 Sergeant Smack with my special guest, ron Chepzick. Welcome to 51 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:17.800 the program, ron Chepzik, and thanks you for agreeing to 52 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:18.319 this interview. 53 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:21.800 Thank you very much and I appreciate it being on 54 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:22.240 your show. 55 00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:26.240 Thank you. Great book. Just want to start with it's 56 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:30.039 a great read. Now, first question, what made you decide 57 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:33.439 to write a book about this particular story. 58 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:39.680 Well, it's an interesting, interesting story. I had done a 59 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:43.360 book called Gangsters of Harlem, where I traced the history 60 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:46.319 of the criminal underworld in one of the most famous 61 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:51.080 neighborhoods in America, Harlem, and one of the gangsters I 62 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:54.719 profiled in that book was Frank Lucas, and I was 63 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:56.759 able to get an interview with him. And this is 64 00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:59.319 before he became really famous, you know. The American Gangster 65 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:04.039 movie made him almost a household name and one of 66 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:07.520 those famous gangsters. And I interviewed him and he kept 67 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:11.439 talking about his so called cousin, Mike Atkinson, how I 68 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:14.400 had brought him to Asia, how he pioneered the connection, 69 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:21.040 how I helped him with coffins to smuggle heroin to 70 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:24.040 the US, et cetera, et cetera. And I said that, 71 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:27.279 I said, this guy Ike Atkinson played a big role 72 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:30.279 in Frank Lucas's career. I should try to talk to him. 73 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:32.439 So I did some research on the internet. I found 74 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:34.480 out that he was in jail for thirty the past 75 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:37.800 thirty two years. He'd been in jails in nineteen seventy five, 76 00:04:38.439 --> 00:04:40.519 and there was hardly anything on him, which is not 77 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:43.000 good for a journalist, right you figure, well, you know, 78 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:45.639 either probably he doesn't want to talk to anybody, you know, 79 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:48.720 And I said, what the heck? I found out that 80 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:51.879 he was only like three hours down the road for 81 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:56.199 me in Butner Federal Penitentiary. And I said, well, I said, 82 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:00.600 that's an easy trip. So I wrote the warden and 83 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:05.560 I say, could you uh passes on to onto Ike Atkinson. 84 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:08.160 I'm interested in in getting an interview with him for 85 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:11.959 a book I'm writing. And uh he kindly consented, and 86 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.720 uh and normally I really didn't want like to give interviews, 87 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:18.279 but I mentioned Frank Lucas in the in the letter, 88 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:21.199 and so I'm very curious about Frank Lucas. And so 89 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:24.160 I got this interview, and uh, you know, he went 90 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:26.000 ballistic in the interview when I told him some of 91 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:29.079 the things that Frank was saying. And he says, he said, gee, 92 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:31.519 he's not my cousin. You know, he's not related by blood. 93 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:33.000 I don't know why he says that, but he always 94 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:35.480 says that I never shipped confidence and all this sort 95 00:05:35.519 --> 00:05:39.399 of stuff. So anyways, uh, we were talking and uh, 96 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:45.480 you know, we had some uh some uh energy going 97 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:47.439 here between me and him, and you know, we started 98 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:48.959 we could tell her we sort of liked each other, 99 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:51.800 and uh, I said, well, I want to come back 100 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:54.639 and interview because I saw a bunch of questions. Uh. 101 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:57.800 Because the interview was limited to about forty five minutes 102 00:05:58.120 --> 00:05:59.519 and I Warren and said I could come back, So 103 00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:01.439 I did. I did come back and interviewed him again, 104 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:04.319 and then I went back to Lucas, and Lucas went 105 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:07.399 ballistic because you know, I was checking out in his 106 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.040 story and he's sort of a bully. He's not He's 107 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:13.000 not at all like like Denzel Washington portrayed him in 108 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:15.199 the movie. You know, he's he can barely understand him. 109 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:16.879 He's the only guy that sweet things languae where you 110 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:21.519 have to use subtitles the History Channel. So anyways, I 111 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:24.839 did that. I wrote, I wrote the you know, the profiles, 112 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:26.959 one of one of the best chapters in my book, 113 00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:30.920 Answers the Harlem. And I corresponded with Ike and he 114 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:34.319 was getting out in two thousand and seven the following year, 115 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:37.240 and we said, well, you know, maybe we could collaborate 116 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:39.439 on the book, and we left it like that, and 117 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:42.800 then when he got out, we met and decided that 118 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:44.279 we were going to do a book. And I promised 119 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:48.600 him that I would do my best to remove the 120 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:52.120 scarlet letter from his name, the scarlet letter being the 121 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:56.360 Cadava heroin conspiracy hoax. And I think I did it 122 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:58.319 in the book. You know, I interviewed a lot of people, 123 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:02.040 and that's how I ended up operating probably the best 124 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:03.800 story I'll ever get in my life as a journalist. 125 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:05.680 I don't think I could ever talk this story because 126 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:07.600 it's such an interesting story. 127 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:11.879 Now you just mentioned and I didn't know if I 128 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:17.240 got that from the book so much. Anyway, was one 129 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:20.759 of the main reasons why Ike wanted to write this 130 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:25.480 book was to deal with that rumor that had persisted 131 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:29.079 for over thirty years that they had smuggled heroin and cadavers. 132 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:30.879 Was that something that really bothered him? 133 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.959 Right? Well, yes, it really did bother him. And people say, 134 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:36.639 you know, why has it bothered him? I mean, would 135 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:38.959 you like to be to find by somebody else you know, 136 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:41.160 your life's and would you like to be known as 137 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:46.839 the guy that pioneered the cadaver heroin conspiracy. We're using 138 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:50.639 coffins of dead gis from Vietnam War to smuggle heroin. 139 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.399 And I you know, I was a military guy. I 140 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:57.399 spent twenty years in the military. He was a master sergeant. 141 00:07:57.399 --> 00:07:59.959 He had a very good career. He had some problem 142 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:03.319 with gambling, which I go into the book, but he 143 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:06.480 got he retired twenty years and you know, that's what 144 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:10.519 people remembered him from. And it wasn't so bad until 145 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:13.519 Lucas made that movie. And if you remember the movie 146 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:17.519 American Gangster, I became an international sensation. The highlight of 147 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:22.399 the movie is when Russell Crowe plays Richie Roberts, the 148 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:27.720 prosecutor that put Lucas and jail uncovers quote, the heroine 149 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.879 in the in the cadavers, you know, and in the coffins, 150 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:35.000 continuing the cadavers, and that's the highlight of the movie. 151 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:38.480 And so yeah, so it's understandable why he would want 152 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:40.639 to clear his name on that respect. 153 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:44.840 Anyways, Okay, let's go back now, because you know there'll 154 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:46.639 be a little bit confusing for our audience. So let's 155 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:48.960 go back because this is a fascinating story right from 156 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:53.000 the beginning. And so let's not talk about the flight 157 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:56.240 of as as you do in the book. Let's go 158 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:59.919 a little bit back. Let's go back to Goldsboro, North Carolina. 159 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:03.759 Let's talk about Ike Akinson. He wasn't always known as 160 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:06.840 Ike Atkinson. Tell us about his life. His early life 161 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:10.120 is very fascinating. You also have a historical background everything. 162 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:14.600 It's America War, America and transition it's a very very 163 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:18.039 important time in American history. Give us a little bit 164 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:21.840 of the background there, and tell us about Ike Atkinson, 165 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:24.360 what his life was like, what was he really like, 166 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:27.440 and what was Goldsboro like where he grew up. 167 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:29.320 Tell us a little bit about all that he grew 168 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:31.639 up in the rural South. And this is kind of 169 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:35.919 kind of ironic because for period in the seventies, golds 170 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.879 World became the drug capital of the United States. Not 171 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:42.320 New York City filled out here in Chicago, but this 172 00:09:42.679 --> 00:09:46.879 little rural hamlet in North Carolina, eastern North Carolina called Goldsborough, 173 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.639 which probably had about twelve to thirteen thousand people, you know, 174 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.440 back in the back in the seventies. And I you know, 175 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:57.919 was born in nineteen twenty five, and his real name 176 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:01.360 is Leslie and he got the name Ike from one 177 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:04.360 of his military buddies. We just started calling him Ike, 178 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:07.840 and the name stuck, and so he took the name 179 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:10.039 of Ike, and so he became known as Ike. He 180 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:12.799 grew up in poverty. His father left him when he 181 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:17.600 was left the family when he was young, and he 182 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:21.759 had several brothers and sisters and his mother raised them. 183 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:25.320 She was a domestic and you know, he grew up 184 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:30.240 to be a normal kid. I mean Lucas. He claims 185 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:31.879 that life was so tough that he had to be 186 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:36.000 a criminal. Well, Lucas was born thirteen miles from where 187 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:38.879 Ike was, and I don't think Ike's life was any 188 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:44.399 any more tough than Lucas. But he grew up, you know, 189 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:47.000 free of crime. He didn't didn't get involved with any 190 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:49.600 kind of mischief orning like that. But it was, you know, 191 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:53.919 a racist times. It was tough to be, you know, 192 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:57.639 a black in the Royal South back in the thirties 193 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:04.759 and forties. And one year before the war, he went 194 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:08.480 up north to New York City to visit his cousin, 195 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:12.919 Leonard Peacock, and Leonard took him to Ithaca, New York, 196 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:15.919 and he worked at a military base, and he was 197 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:17.759 just a kid, he was a teenager. But it really 198 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:21.159 opened his eyes to the world. He met a white 199 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:23.159 person there as a first white person became a friend 200 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:26.720 of his, and you know, he realized that there were, 201 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:29.519 you know, good white people in the world. And when 202 00:11:29.559 --> 00:11:32.759 he came back to Goldsborough, he decided that he wanted 203 00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.000 to get out Goldsborough as fast as he could. You know, 204 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:39.240 it was too small for him, so earned too many 205 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:42.200 opportunities for him to do it. But he decided that 206 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:45.279 he wanted to go into the military, and he was 207 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.679 under age, but managed to forge a paper which got 208 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.200 him into the military. And so he got into the military, 209 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:56.519 and of course the war started and he served, you know, 210 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:02.519 in the army, and he rose quite fast as a 211 00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:05.360 as a military guy, and before before too long he's 212 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:08.159 one of the youngest master sergeants in the military. It 213 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.000 was a segregated army, of course, you know, and that's 214 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:13.120 one of the things that really irritated him a lot 215 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:16.039 of other blacks, the fact that they wouldn't serve because 216 00:12:16.120 --> 00:12:19.039 the white brass thought that black soldiers, you know, wouldn't 217 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:21.639 do well in combat. So he set out most of 218 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:23.919 the war and he wanted to you know, he wanted 219 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:27.360 to fight the Japanese because he was in the Pacific, 220 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:31.440 but he never got that opportunity, and so he spent 221 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:38.840 you know, the early part of his life into the 222 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:41.960 twenties in the military. And then so when the war ended, 223 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:46.200 he had to make a choice, and he decided that 224 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:50.279 he would stay in the in the military, and the 225 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:53.960 military was was kind of a candy shop for him 226 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:58.399 because he had learned gambling when he was a young kid, 227 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:03.679 and he became an incredible gambler cards and dice and 228 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:07.879 took a lot of money away from his fellow soldiers. 229 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:13.440 And so when he stayed in the military and retired 230 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:18.960 in nineteen sixty three, he had close to sixty thousand 231 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:22.639 dollars saved up and he was able to buy, you know, 232 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:27.039 a swimming pool. He had the first swimming pool in Goldsborough, 233 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:30.799 you know, among the black population, in an area called 234 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:35.440 New Circle. And the only problem was in the military, 235 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:39.360 he got caught gambling where he wasn't supposed to because 236 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:42.600 he had risen actually to a second lieutenant, and he 237 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:48.879 was gambling with soldiers, you know, privates and all that. 238 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:51.919 He wasnt supposed to do that because he was an officer. 239 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.159 And he nearly got court martials twice because of his gambling, 240 00:13:56.759 --> 00:14:00.279 and he managed to he was demoted in rank, but 241 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:03.240 managed It showed something about his character because he managed 242 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:06.559 to work hard and get his rank back and he 243 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:10.879 actually graduated, or not graduated, finished the services as a 244 00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:13.639 master sergeant. So when he got out of the military, 245 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:17.720 here he was, you know, professional gambler. He loved adventure 246 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.240 and you know, he had to make a decision, and 247 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:27.879 he says that he made a bad decision because he 248 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:32.600 decided to follow the life of an adventurer and a gambler. 249 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:34.759 So he stayed in Europe, and there was a whole 250 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:39.080 group of fellow of Black soldiers and ex Black soldiers 251 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:41.919 that he hung around with, and they developed this really 252 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:45.639 close relationship. That's why I have the book subtitled and 253 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:49.080 the Band of Brothers. And they developed a sort of 254 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:53.799 a gambling colony in Europe, you know, in the in 255 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:58.600 the sixties, and he continued to make a living at that. 256 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.440 And that's excuse me just for just for a second. 257 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.399 But let's clarify though too, because I think it's important 258 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.159 later to the entire story. At least it is in 259 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:12.200 my mind that he was a routine cheater along with 260 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:15.879 his friends. It wasn't just a little They counted cards, 261 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.960 they counted cards, they loaded dice to use magnets under tables, 262 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:20.960 so they were they were hostilgagally. 263 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:23.600 Not all the time, but occasionally if he you know, 264 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:26.799 if if he was facing a tough competitor, yeah, yeah, 265 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:29.360 he would he would do that, you know, he was 266 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:35.240 he would do he wasn't beneath using tricks uh to 267 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:38.279 uh to make money, you know, at at gambling. Yeah 268 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:39.240 he did it right. 269 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:42.039 Yeah, well he did. He cheated basically, and his and 270 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:44.759 his friends are cheated too. So even if you're counting cards, 271 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:46.639 you'd be kicked out at a casino in America for 272 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.399 counting cards. So yeah, they had a group of guys 273 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:51.720 that so I just wanted to clarify that, and I'm 274 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:54.159 sorry for interrupting you there. So he had a he 275 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:56.000 had a group but you say, sort of a band 276 00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:59.159 of brothers uh in Europe. He hung around there after 277 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:01.480 the war and they were dealing with They were hanging 278 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:02.919 around Bangkok and Saigon. 279 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.320 What happened was he was actually in Europe when one 280 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.000 of his friends that he made in the service, a 281 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:14.320 guy named William Herman Jackson, had gone. 282 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:17.399 To with lucky Land slots. You can get lucky just 283 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:18.679 about anywhere. 284 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.879 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. 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And he was amazed at the action 297 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:01.000 in Bangkok. I mean all kinds of things going on. 298 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:05.160 And you know, there was a woman, there was the nightlife, 299 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:11.799 there was gambling, et cetera. So he talked Ike into 300 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.359 coming to Bangkok, and so in nineteen sixty six, that's 301 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:17.400 where Ike ended up in Bangkok. 302 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:20.920 Now, can you tell us Maybe I'm getting a little 303 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:23.880 bit ahead, but can you tell us what MPCs are 304 00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:27.079 and why it's important and why it's important to this 305 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:28.480 Why it's important to this story. 306 00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:35.160 Well, that was the intermediate thing between gambling and the 307 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:40.960 heroin trafficking, which eventually made Ike of fortune and eventually 308 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:43.039 put him in jail for such a long time. But 309 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:46.240 there were military payment certificates and they were used instead 310 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:49.720 of money by the military to prevent speculation, and Ike 311 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:53.079 was able to manipulate the system and to make a 312 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:56.160 lot of money by going to Vietnam. So he spent 313 00:17:56.279 --> 00:18:01.759 some time doing this until one day herman Jackson called 314 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.279 him over to his house of his girlfriend, her name 315 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:11.160 was Nidia, and UH showed him an article about, you know, 316 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:16.200 the heroin situation in the United States, and he told 317 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:19.920 her that that his girlfriend's family had connections to the 318 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:22.920 Golden Triangle, the famous Golden Triangles, one of the major 319 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:28.039 sources of poppy cultivation in the world. Right that borders 320 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:31.759 and borders of Mayan mar which was the Burma back then, 321 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:37.960 layouts and Thailand and Union Province in China, and so 322 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:41.640 so he said that you know, they should go into uh, 323 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:46.559 into trafficking, that it was you know, really exploding and 324 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:50.319 there were opportunities to uh to get money. And I 325 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.200 was sort of reluctant to do that because he didn't 326 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:55.960 know anything about it. You know, he was mainly uh, 327 00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:59.440 you know, he was a hustler and a gambler and uh, 328 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:04.640 but he was getting a board with board with mcbcs 329 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:06.880 because it was so easy. Number one and number two, 330 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:09.839 Vietnam was getting dangerous. This was getting near, you know, 331 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:12.279 the ted offensive and all that right, and he always 332 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:14.759 always got killed one time when he was in Saigon, 333 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.599 so he decided to So he was started to think 334 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:22.279 about it, and essentially Jackson you know, talked him into 335 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.680 it and they were able to you know, they decided 336 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:30.240 to develop you know, this this network that that could 337 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:34.839 be used to smuggle Heroin back to back to the US. 338 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:41.240 Now, they used military planes primarily because obviously they could 339 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:43.920 get according to any book, he said, they could get 340 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:45.920 free rides and they were like that. 341 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:49.359 Right. There was an embacy embassy flight where which I 342 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:51.960 could take because he was a retired officer and fly 343 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.720 anywhere in the world long or space available, and he 344 00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:59.079 used the embassy flight. It originated in Charleston, South Carolina, 345 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.000 and which was close to Goldsborough, and it flew all 346 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:05.640 around the world and he was able to use that flight, 347 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:07.240 you know, to get free rise and so he'd go 348 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:11.039 gambled all over the world. He was gambling, uh, you know, 349 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:15.519 in Spain, Turkey, Greece, wherever there was where there was action. 350 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:19.279 And he was saying that he knew about Halliburton because 351 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:24.079 a lot of these uh uh contractors were gamblers, and 352 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:26.640 uh he said he knew about Halliburton. And that that 353 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:31.039 type of activity along before Dick Cheney made it famous, 354 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:34.240 you know when when he became vice president. 355 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:38.519 Yeah, for runners of those military contractors. He said, they're 356 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:40.839 throwing a lot of money around and they were. 357 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:42.799 There, right, so he would, you know, and and he 358 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:45.640 had he had a game in in Spain which involved 359 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.960 a lot of US embassy personnel that were in Spain 360 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:51.960 at the time, and uh and uh he said, you know, 361 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:54.359 I said, what about the fact that you were black? 362 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:56.079 And that bothered them and he said, no, as long 363 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:58.599 as your money was green, right, And you know, they 364 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:01.279 didn't care. So he ended up he ended up doing that. 365 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:05.079 That was the embassy flight. And it was very lax 366 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:09.920 security in those days, and they really didn't check you. 367 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:12.000 They had no X ray machine, they had no dogs, 368 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:17.000 et cetera. And Ike was able to exploit the system 369 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.599 to get started. And he started off with Duffel bags 370 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:23.000 and he just put him in the plane and nobody 371 00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:25.839 ever checked him. And he'd go through security, nobody ever 372 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:32.319 checked him. He began to hire or employ some fellow 373 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:36.680 black xgis and gis and if they weren't in the military, 374 00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:39.240 he would he would get them uniforms and fit them 375 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:41.680 out with orders and everything, and they put them on 376 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:44.920 the plane and they would move the heroin back to 377 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:48.640 the US. And it became very successful because the heroin 378 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.839 that that Ike was moving was so called China white, 379 00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:54.960 you know, which could be up to ninety ninety percent pure, 380 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:57.160 and it was like the best best heroin on the planet. 381 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:03.680 And so the Italian the time mafia, which in the 382 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:07.400 late sixties still controlled the heroin trade through the French connection. 383 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:09.920 It's kind of misnomer because it was run by the 384 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:17.359 Italian mafia. You know. They sold really bad, bad stuff, 385 00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:19.759 you know, and they didn't care about the product. And 386 00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:23.240 he had ninety five percent of the markets when I 387 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:26.440 started to shift this stuff, you know, became really in demand, 388 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:31.200 and he was able to build up a really good, 389 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:36.240 uh criminal business, uh smuggling heroin and he dealt mostly 390 00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:41.599 with well, he dealt exclusively with black dealers. So Lucas 391 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:43.599 you know, makes the claim in the movie that he, 392 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:46.680 you know, he was the first black to to uh 393 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:49.720 not have to deal with the Italians they came to him, 394 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:53.079 which was not true. Uh I did. I did research, 395 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:56.319 and Lucas was your traditional black gangster at that period. 396 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.759 He dealt he dealt with the mafia, and he got 397 00:22:58.759 --> 00:23:01.119 his stuff from from the mafia. UH. And then later 398 00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:04.519 when Ike became a real prominent dealer, he started to 399 00:23:04.519 --> 00:23:05.319 buy his stuff off. 400 00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:10.319 I now, how did Ike Atkinson actually you did the research? 401 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:13.039