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Start having the 54 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.239 most fun ever at Chumbuck Casino dot com. 55 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:03.599 The bilbertesif their idiomby by lost in terms conditions eighting pluss. 56 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:16.000 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 57 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:19.120 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 58 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:26.479 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 59 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:30.199 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 60 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:34.800 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 61 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:50.840 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. In nineteen ninety seven, 62 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:55.400 the bodies of young African American men began turning up 63 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:59.199 in the cane fields of New Orleans suburbs. The victims, 64 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:01.879 many of them trans and street hustlers, had been brutally 65 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:08.240 raped and strangled, leaving Louisiana's gay community rattled. When no 66 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:11.800 leads were found and the murders continued, detectives Denis Thornton 67 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:15.800 and Don Bergeron came together as a task force partners 68 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:21.840 and were in indefigatable in their decade long effort to 69 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:25.039 track down the killer. In two thousand and six, DNA 70 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:30.280 evidence finally linked the murderers to a suspect, the unassuming 71 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:33.960 Ronald Joseph Dominique, who had lived under the radar for 72 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:37.360 years working as a pizza delivery man and a meter reader. 73 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:41.199 But who was he and what had led him to 74 00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:45.840 commit such heinous crimes. With direct access to the investigation, 75 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:50.199 Dominique's confession and all the sights where bodies were dumped, 76 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.599 author Fred Rosen enters the warped mind of the murderer, 77 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:59.919 providing horrifying and fascinating account of his troubled, disturbing, broke 78 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.479 in life and his brutal crimes. The book we're featuring 79 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:07.719 the season is The Bayou Strangler, Louisiana's Most Gruesome serial Killer, 80 00:04:08.080 --> 00:04:12.639 with my special guest, journalist and author Fred Rosen. Welcome 81 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.000 back to the program, and thank you very much again 82 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:20.600 for joining us on True Murder. Welcome Fred Rosen, Dan, it. 83 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:24.680 Is always a distinct pleasure to be on with you, 84 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:30.040 especially today when Justin Trudeau met with Donald Trump. 85 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:39.839 Wow. I won't even go there, Fred, going there? Okay ah, 86 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:45.399 that's all politics. We have to get to business of murder. Yes, sir, 87 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:47.399 Thank you very much Fred for joining me with this 88 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:52.279 your latest release, The bay You Strangler, Louisiana's most gruesome 89 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:57.680 serial Killer, and incredible as you as you note the 90 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:01.240 choice of victims means that many man, many people. Most 91 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:03.680 people don't know who this is. But thanks to Fred 92 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.360 Rosen and the Bayou Strangler, we're going to get to 93 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:12.000 hear about it tonight. What brought you to this story, Fred, 94 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:14.160 before we get started. 95 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:17.240 What brought what brought me to the story Dan back 96 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:22.920 in late two thousand and eight, when Dominic was finally sentenced, 97 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:25.680 was the fact that I didn't know anything about it. 98 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:32.279 I went, excuse me, this guy killed twenty three men 99 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:37.279 and it's not in the press. It's not in the media. 100 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:42.759 I was astonished. I just I couldn't get over it. 101 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:45.879 And so I said, well, you know, I got to 102 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:47.279 find out what's going on here. 103 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:50.759 Now. 104 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:53.720 As you take us to New Orleans and New Orleans 105 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:58.360 Parish October third, nineteen ninety eight, and you called the 106 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:01.680 Nabors but the Quarter, and you talk to just we 107 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:07.120 just introduce Ronald Joseph Dominique, this five foot, five hundred 108 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:10.439 and sixty pounds, thirty six years old, and you talk 109 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:14.319 a little bit about him before we talk about Oliver Lebanks, 110 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:19.160 who's twenty seven years old. And again this parish and 111 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:22.279 a gay bar called the Rawhide. You take us right 112 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:29.959 away to this incredible incident and interaction and these people colliding. 113 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:33.240 So tell us a little bit about how you open 114 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:39.000 up and start this incredible story in Orleans Parish, October third, 115 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:39.959 nineteen ninety eight. 116 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:49.319 Well, I started it there because Rominique was very, very 117 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:55.319 eloquent in describing the individuals that he killed when they 118 00:06:55.360 --> 00:07:02.439 subsequently got him, and I was fascinated by the the 119 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:05.480 m o basically what he would do. What he did 120 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:09.680 was he he just went into the quarters, as he 121 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:14.319 called it, the French Quarter, and he's a he's a 122 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:20.680 game man, and he was looking for a guy to 123 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:26.639 have sex with. But at the same time he had 124 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:32.319 something really wrong with him that made him get extremely 125 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:37.959 violent with these individuals. And the the mo o that 126 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:41.240 he uses, which is to say to a guy in 127 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:43.639 a bar and you know, and in this case it's 128 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:48.279 a gay bar, he'd say to the guy, well, you know, 129 00:07:48.439 --> 00:07:51.879 I'm interested in, you know, doing this sexual act or 130 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:54.519 that sexual act, and then they would agree on a price. 131 00:07:55.000 --> 00:07:59.120 And then what happens is he the he and and 132 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:04.160 and his victim left the bar and they start walking 133 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:07.800 through the through the French Quarter. Do they walk right 134 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:14.040 by Jean Lafitte's black blacksmith shop Lafitte, of course, with 135 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:19.600 the pirate atriot who helped defend America from the British 136 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:23.959 during the War of eighteen twelve in eighteen fourteen, and 137 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:30.399 he takes him to his car and they start doing 138 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:34.240 you know, sexual stuff. And then the next thing you know, 139 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:40.840 Dominique gets really angry because the guy is trying to 140 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:45.399 do anal sex with him, and for various reasons, he 141 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:49.320 doesn't want this, and that's the point, at least that's 142 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:53.559 what he will subsequently tell please that he just loses it. 143 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:57.639 But the fact is he went, well, they're doing this 144 00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:00.879 in the car. Dominique has like a jack candle under 145 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:05.559 the seat, so he's already ready to do something, and 146 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:10.639 that's exactly what he does. He takes the jackcandle, he 147 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:16.120 hits the guy in the head, and he kills him. 148 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:21.000 But the interesting part about this individual is that rather 149 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:24.399 than dump the body someplace where people won't find it, 150 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:29.399 which is what most murderers I think would do, he 151 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:31.960 decides he's going to do it in public. And he's 152 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.360 got all kinds of reasons for doing this, and so 153 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:38.759 he rides around the airport with this body in the 154 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:42.879 back seat and what I did, Dan was I drove 155 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:46.559 exactly the same route so I could describe it in 156 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:49.519 a book for the reader. So you know, I want 157 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:51.159 you know, you got to see this stuff, you know 158 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:53.360 what I mean? And you know you got to breed 159 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:56.360 when you're writing. You know this, when you're writing true crime, 160 00:09:56.440 --> 00:09:59.759 you got to breathe the same air as the bad 161 00:09:59.799 --> 00:10:03.000 guy because then you get it, you get the feeling 162 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:08.720 for it. And just doing that really gave me an 163 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:13.440 appreciation for how this guy was able to do what 164 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:16.159 he did for so many years. 165 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:22.320 You talk about, just to elaborate a little bit, it's 166 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:25.279 not only that he had places he could dump these bodies, 167 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:28.080 but rather he wanted these bodies to be found. But 168 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:33.360 this is the value where decomposition is quick and alligators 169 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:36.480 can do your job like nobody else in terms of 170 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:39.840 destroying forensic evidence. Isn't that true? 171 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:46.919 Yes? Yes. One of the things that I discovered years 172 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:49.480 ago on some other books is that when you if 173 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:52.000 you dump a body. Number one, if you dump a 174 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:59.720 body in warm water, it's going to decompose, and it's 175 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:02.399 sort of sense of it. You know, it's going to 176 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:05.600 decompose that much quicker. My god, if you dump it 177 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:08.919 in a by you, the alligators would get rid of 178 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:14.360 it and there'd be no evidence, not dominate. He wanted 179 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:21.799 the body to be found because of his inferiority complex, 180 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:27.799 and he wanted the body to be found, and so 181 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:31.679 he would search out a place where he could dump 182 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:35.840 the body without anybody seeing him. But it was still 183 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:42.600 in public, next to a throughway or a freeway or road, 184 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:47.519 whatever it might be. And that's what he does. And 185 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:51.759 in this particular case and in all the other cases 186 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:58.480 of the other twenty two men that he kills, you. 187 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:01.200 Talk about the next day and by sees the body, 188 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:05.320 like you say, below the freeway ramp and calls police. 189 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:10.279 He's dumped in Jefferson County. So Detective Dennis Thornton, from 190 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:15.720 one of the mental figures in this book, he is. 191 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:18.440 And you also talk about this New Orleans metro area 192 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:23.200 and it's per capita homicide rate. Tell us a little 193 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.559 bit about that. And as you do introduce who this 194 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.759 Dennis Thornton, Detective Dennis Thornton is. 195 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:36.039 Yes, yes, yes, the New Orleans has the highest per 196 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:39.200 capita murder rate of any place in the United States 197 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:45.519 of America. And that's to begin with. So one more body, 198 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:49.759 you know, more or less is not going to make 199 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:57.039 much of a difference except to two relatives. And if 200 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:03.879 you're lucky enough, are concerned. The detective and Thornton, Dennis 201 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:10.519 Thornton is unique. He is he is a detective and 202 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:13.600 now he's actually a captain. But back then, you know, 203 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:18.320 he was a you know, detective and with a degree 204 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:23.159 in criminal master's degree in criminal justice. So you've got 205 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:30.879 a guy who's got street smarts, academic smarts, and most 206 00:13:30.919 --> 00:13:41.039 importantly he has he's blind to what the the profession 207 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:45.000 is of the victim. A victim is a victim. He 208 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:49.320 doesn't care whether the victim is a male prostitute, a 209 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:54.720 female prostitute, or any you know, or anything of that nature. 210 00:13:55.879 --> 00:14:01.039 And he doesn't care if the victim is gay or straight. 211 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:04.600 Oly knows is it's a victim. And quite frankly, that's 212 00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:08.440 pretty unique in my experience with the police departments that 213 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:14.399 I've worked with, because in most cases when prostitutes are killed, 214 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:19.080 the police departments don't knock themselves out because these aren't 215 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:23.720 tax paying citizens. Dan, you know what. But when you 216 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:25.759 once in a while you get a cop like this 217 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:29.879 one and he doesn't care, you know, only knows is 218 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:35.080 that one of the ten commandments has been violated and 219 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:37.519 he's going to go after the guy as long as 220 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:41.120 it takes. 221 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:45.720 Now you talk about that, he doesn't realize. But this 222 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:49.960 is not this killer's first kill. Yes, And so you 223 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:55.519 go through the people that were first seen. The first 224 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:59.879 victims was David Mitchell nineteen. And what you also mentioned 225 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:02.200 he is not only does he not care about age, 226 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:06.000 he doesn't care about profession. As we'll see in this story, 227 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.879 which is again even more unique, he doesn't care about race. 228 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:15.759 Oh no, no, you know that that's a great point. Yeah, 229 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:19.519 because you know, I certainly concentrated more on the on 230 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:24.399 the sexuality situation, but no, he does not care about 231 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:28.600 race at all. And look, I'm not going to tar 232 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:33.480 and feather every police officer in the Southern United States. 233 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.120 But the fact of the matter is there are many 234 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:43.960 bigots in the United States. Many of them are in 235 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:50.039 the Southern States, and some of them are police officers. 236 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:53.759 And I'm not saying anything here that hasn't been said before. 237 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:59.600 But the uniqueness of this story is that the first 238 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:05.240 on the case is nothing like this. And that's what 239 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:11.279 got me. In contrast to the fact that our media 240 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:12.960 wouldn't cover it. 241 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:17.519 Well, those are issues we could debate all night and 242 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.519 day in terms of, you know, certain segment of society 243 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:24.440 and are more some people in some states, But for 244 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:27.000 this purpose when what we do get to see is 245 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:32.039 an extraordinary effort by an extraordinary officer. And that's what's 246 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:35.799 incredibly interesting because we haven't met the other central figure 247 00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:38.080 in this book as well, and again just right out 248 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:42.639 of central casting. So let's get to David Mitchell nineteen. 249 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:46.960 He's last seen on July thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven in 250 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:51.679 another parish, Saint Charles Parish, and Dominique say is living 251 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:56.120 nearby in boot Or, but I'm not sure the pronunciation. 252 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:01.279 So tell us tell us how this is found. And 253 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:05.039 we didn't mention exactly what police in the condition of 254 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:07.759 the body. And again this is something that we'll talk 255 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:12.079 of mo and signature. What do they find in terms 256 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:16.000 of David Mitchell and what did they find before that 257 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:20.279 with Lee Banks in terms of what police find at 258 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:22.400 the scene, Well, what. 259 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:29.880 The police find is there's a constant consistent in in 260 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:35.279 this case, and what they find in every single instance 261 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:40.000 is that these are what cops call body dump jobs. 262 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:47.039 The individual is murdered over here and then transport it 263 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:53.759 over there and dumped in public. And they find what 264 00:17:53.960 --> 00:18:01.720 is consistent is the individual is strangled. Uh, there might 265 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:05.839 be a certain element of suffocation if that didn't work enough, 266 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.720 you know, if the if the strangling didn't work enough, 267 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:14.000 and uh and and and it can't and it can 268 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:19.400 also be bludgeoning. But the it is a very consistent 269 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:27.039 m O. Now, the difficulty is what profilers whole linkage? 270 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:33.119 How do you link Okay, how do you link a 271 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:37.440 a murder in one parish? And of course this is 272 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.519 in Louisiana has a unique system. It's a county. Parish 273 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:43.880 is a county, So how do you link it from 274 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:47.160 over here to over there? This is this is not 275 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:54.519 an easy thing to do. And today we we have 276 00:18:54.640 --> 00:19:00.839 more sophisticated methods uh of geographic profile. But they didn't 277 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.519 employ that year. All they knew was the body is dumb, 278 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:09.400 the dude is suffocated, and blah blah blah, and we'll 279 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:13.839 see what we can find out. That's pretty much it. 280 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:18.400 You know, it doesn't get any you know, it doesn't. Again, 281 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:22.920 it's a question of making that linkage, and that's going 282 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.359 to take quite some time. 283 00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:30.680 Now, we're talking about an error at least where DNA 284 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:38.599 cognizance and aware of and advancements in DNA testing and technology. 285 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:45.440 What evidence of any hair fiber souvenirs taken robbery motive? 286 00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:48.839 What evidence was left at that crime scene? 287 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:56.279 Well, the only thing that police, if the only evidence 288 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:01.119 that they would be lucky enough to get, would be 289 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:11.200 mitochondrial DNA, which is not an absolute. Uh Mitochondrial DNA 290 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:18.200 is a essentially a partial identification. It's not as as 291 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:23.599 conclusive as as the other kind of DNA. The name, 292 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:26.720 the name of the scientific name escapes me at the moment. 293 00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:36.200 But uh so, this wasn't a situation where the DNA 294 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:42.319 would necessarily lead to the to the capture of the 295 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.079 bad guy. And of course you've got to have a 296 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:48.400 bad guy. You gotta you know guy, you know, and 297 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:51.240 you know, there's a few TV series that get it 298 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.880 right that when you're going to do something of that nature, 299 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:56.599 you've got to get a if you get the guy 300 00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.079 in custody, you've got to get yourself a search warrant. 301 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.799 In the United States to do that sort of thing, 302 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:07.559 it's not an easy thing to get, you know, And 303 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:15.319 so the police have constitutional restrictions essentially until they can 304 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:19.680 show that there's a reason to get the DNA from 305 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:22.799 whoever the bad guy might be. But again we go 306 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.720 back to the same thing. It doesn't do any good 307 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:28.519 to you know, you can get the DNA off the body, 308 00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:32.200 but if you have nothing to compare it to, what 309 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:36.680 good does it do. You've got to have yourself a 310 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:40.680 you know, you've got to have yourself a suspect, and 311 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:46.559 that is not happening. There is no suspect. And Dominique 312 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:54.279 is a really smart guy, very feral, as many serial 313 00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:58.759 killers or as you know and the listeners know. And 314 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:04.880 he moves from living in the New Orleans area back 315 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:10.759 to go back home to home of Louisiana, which is South. Well, 316 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:14.359 that complicates the matter because now he's going through another 317 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:18.319 half a dozen powershes how he you know, how are 318 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:21.839 you going to link something like that? Again, the only 319 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:27.039 way you could link it would be you'd really have 320 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:30.839 to have a geographic profiler in the case. And that 321 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:37.720 is a that is a that is a very um 322 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:43.160 uh oh courant a method of profiling. You know, people 323 00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:45.319 have got to forget what they see on a TV 324 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.759 show like Criminal Minds. That's a bunch of crap. You 325 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.799 know what I mean, Dan, It's it's all crap. I 326 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:59.000 mean the FBI's Behavioral Science uh division serial killers, So 327 00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:07.119 unlike the these dudes, Uh they they advise police officers 328 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:11.079 by and large, and a lot of the time they're wrong. 329 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:16.519 So essentially, when you're trying to track down a serial killer, 330 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:20.319 as in this case, it's a it's it's the old 331 00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:28.640 fashioned method of shoe leather and and and investigation. It's 332 00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:29.599 that's the way it is. 333 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:35.319 You talk about Dennis Thornton because he's the first person 334 00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:39.640 on these cases, and what he notices that there are 335 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:43.960 some tire tire marks made and he also noticed and 336 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:46.839 and thinks that this is quite important is the ligature 337 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:50.839 marks on the wrists, and he notices how the wrists 338 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:55.920 are tied. And his conclusion is tell us what his 339 00:23:56.039 --> 00:24:00.200 conclusion is in terms of this early again, despite all 340 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:02.799 the FBI profile that you say is cookie cutter and 341 00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:07.279 they end up being cookie cutter. What does Dennis Thornton, 342 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:11.480 this really really dedicated cop, what does he come up 343 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:17.720 with in this early assessment of the ligatures on the wrists. 344 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:26.559 Well, he certainly feels that the ligatures are indicative of 345 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:31.440 the individual being restrained, which of course makes it easier 346 00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:36.400 for the bad guy to commit the crime. It also 347 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:41.920 becomes what is known as signature behavior, the thing that 348 00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:46.640 one of the things that makes a serial killer unique. 349 00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:52.079 And of course that sort of detail is known only 350 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.759 to the investigating officer, which they can use later on 351 00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:59.920 if they get lucky enough to get the bad guy 352 00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:08.839 into an interrogation room. And the literature marks are are 353 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:20.240 of course extremely important, and they they also determine that again, 354 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.400 the the you know when you when you strangle somebody, 355 00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:30.759 it's pretty interesting. What happens is blood vessel, blood vessels 356 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:33.640 burst in the eye. Got to say that slowly, it 357 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:40.079 almost rhymes. And you might also have uh in this situation, 358 00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:44.200 the hyoid bone in the throat might be broken. So 359 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:48.200 Dennis is really paying attention to this stuff. I mean, 360 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:53.079 he's really he's really I mentioned in the book, I said, 361 00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:57.640 he's really being my I mentioned my Croff Holmes, who 362 00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:02.559 is Sherlock Holmes's older brother. And he's really being a 363 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:06.920 true detective. And I also want to just point out 364 00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:12.519 that this is not usual. We'd like to believe that 365 00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:16.640 every police, every detective, is capable of this. Uh. Huh, 366 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:19.759 that's not the case. If that was the case, we're 367 00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:23.960 not having this conversation because he would dominic would have 368 00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:26.400 been caught a lot earlier on some of the other parachutes. 369 00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:31.359 But it's because of Thornton's observations of the signature behavior, 370 00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:36.160 of the ligature marks of the way the individuals are 371 00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:44.720 murdered that he begins to understand not only you know, 372 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:48.440 what the mo is of this guy and how he 373 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:53.279 does it. And I think, and I'll just tell you 374 00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:58.319 that one of the things that I had a learning 375 00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:02.079 curve on Dan on this one was, you know, these 376 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:05.200 guys that Dominie picked on, many of them were in 377 00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:10.279 very good shape. I mean, these were, you know, strong individuals, 378 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:13.880 but he was able to use He actually was a 379 00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:19.160 lot stronger physically than he looked. So once he got 380 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:24.799 the guy under him, he could use his weight to 381 00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:27.440 keep the guy there, tie him up to whatever he 382 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.519 wanted to do with the guys. I mean, thank god, 383 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.160 he didn't torture or anything like that, you know what 384 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:37.160 I mean. I mean, that wasn't his thing. That wasn't 385 00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:39.720 his thing. He had some. 386 00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:45.640 Other things in mind, right, you talk about in your book. 387 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.400 Because we got to go through a little bit of 388 00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:52.960 this incredible body count in terms of we talked about 389 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:56.279 David Bitchell, it was nineteen years old, was on last 390 00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:59.640 scene on July thirteenth, ninety seven, But then we have 391 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:05.039 five months later Gary Pierre, twenty years old in Saint 392 00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:10.960 Charles Parrish, and then seven months later Larry Larry Ranson, 393 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:15.079 who was again again dominique changes victim of choice in 394 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:20.000 terms of age. And you also point out that these 395 00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:23.880 bodies are dumped close together, so Thornton really has his 396 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:28.279 hands filled on trying to understand this mentality of this 397 00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:31.519 guy that seems to be taunting police, not only leaving 398 00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:33.839 the bodies to be discovered, but now going back to 399 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:38.720 a familiar dumping site, and the FBI, like you say, 400 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:41.759 comes in, but it's not really doing anything at that time. 401 00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:48.079