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Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Britnie Brownfield and

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I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by Ben Stover,

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individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're all

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licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists who practice

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out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed mental health professionals,

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this podcast is purely fronted him and purposes and to

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fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and all forms.

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Speaker 2: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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we aren't your therapist.

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Speaker 1: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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a local mental health provider.

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Speaker 2: Welcome everybody to Popcorn Psychology. Today we will be doing

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the movie of the year ka pop demon Hunters. That's right,

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We're going to be golden today, y'all.

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Speaker 1: Here we go.

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Speaker 2: So today we're going to be talking about cape hop

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demon Hunters, self acceptance barriers, trusting others.

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Speaker 1: And opening up.

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Speaker 2: Then we're going to be getting into treatment and final thoughts.

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Just like always. Right off the bat, today Hannah is

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not feeling well, so it's just gonna be me and

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Brittany today on this episode. Hello, but we are looking

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forward to this and we've been watching the memes and

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gifts go NonStop, I know, even amongst dudes.

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Speaker 3: Like literally, I was at a police station for work.

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Speaker 2: Nothing but dudes cops in this police station and Golden

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was the first.

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Speaker 3: King that came on.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: They're all just jamming it out to it. I don't

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know what to tell you. This has become a cultural phenomenon.

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Netflix released it to the theater and that was the

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only time I have seen the theater packed in years,

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full every seat cool. My daughter loves it, so we've

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watched it forty seven times.

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Speaker 1: I have seen it twice, and one of those times

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on one point five speed, which will make you feel crazy.

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So I wouldn't necessarily recommend, but I had to do

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a rewatch for today's episode, and I had limited time,

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and it was an interesting experience to rewatch very quickly.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I could watch anything on one point

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five speed.

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Speaker 1: I think I'd lose my shit. It's not as bad

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as you think. It just like feels like something's kind

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of wrong, you know, Yeah, But it's not like it's

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more just like everything's going really fast. Yeah, I can't.

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Speaker 2: The pacing of things is important. I think I'd be like, well,

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I wouldn't do it for the first time watching this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I just had to make sure to nail down

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some info that I wasn't retaining. But yes, I would

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say I know about this movie from how much Ben

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has told me, all the things that he just shared

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with you all. So Ben, can you take it away

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with introducing this movie to our lovely audience for people

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who maybe are childless like me and aren't familiar with

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this movie.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so in K Pop Demon Hunters, which I discovered

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because my daughter took a chance on it when it

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popped up on Netflix, and ever since then, including last night,

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I've watched that movie many many times over and listen

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to the music over and over again. Produced four number

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one singles. It's just outrage as nothing has done that

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since In Conto Are come Close. This movie sets off

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right off the bat with establishing that in this universe

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there have long been a history of demons trying to

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invade the regular world, and a group of three women

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who are using music and song in addition to melee

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and bladed weapons to eliminate demons and create a magical

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barrier called the hon Moon to keep the demons contained

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in their world unable to invade ours, and when they

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do happen to breakthrough, because faith in the hun Moon disappears,

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then the Hunters are there to eradicate them with awesomeness.

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Throughout this film, we see Rumi, who is the main

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singer and leader of the pack as it were, in

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addition to Mirah, their main dancer, and Zoe, who are

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our three leads.

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Speaker 1: In this film.

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Speaker 2: And as we go through the story of K Pop

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Demon Hunters, we learned that Roomy is the daughter of

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a former Hunter and was trained by one of her

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mother's partners, and that she's a legacy thing. We catch

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these girls right at the beginning, at the end of

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a world tour where demons have kidnapped them, and the

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girls defeat the demons readily and handily before we get

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launched into the demon world, and we see that the

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demons concoct a plan to battle the girl band with

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a boy.

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Speaker 1: Band of demons.

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Speaker 2: Because what really solidifies the honey Moon isn't in fact

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the Hunters themselves, it's the fans. So if the demons

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can capture the fans more nummy souls for them, and

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so this plan launches. And of course, of course Rummy

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who happens to be part demon because her dad was

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a demon, which is unexplained.

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Speaker 1: We don't have the answers to that. Yeah, and her

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mom's not around at all. She died as a baby.

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Maybe when she was a baby, she was a toddler. Okay.

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Of course Rumy falls in love with a demon, with

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a demon, it's swishy, swishy hair.

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Speaker 3: With very swishy hair.

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Speaker 2: But of course then she's able to save him and

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rescue him, and he then rescues her. Because it's a

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kid's movie and it's a tween awakening.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I believe what I said very crassly to you,

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Ben is that this movie is spank bank material for

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seven to nine year old girls. You can no And

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I only am saying that use as a seven to

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nine year old girl at one time in my life myself.

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The first time I watched it, take a drink here,

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because this is my catchphrase. This is more final thoughts.

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The whole time I was watching it, The first time

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I watched it with Hannah, because Hannah did watch this

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movie one and a half times, even though she couldn't

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be here today. I was just kept saying, this is catnip.

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This is like tween or even kid pre tween catenip

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for girls. Oh yeah, Oh every single beat. I was like,

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this could have been made in a lab to attract

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young girls.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure it was, and they did an outstanding job,

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because the entire theater when we went to see it,

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let alone, everyone who has kids of this particular age

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group have been attracted to this like moths into flame.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It makes me think of one of those movies

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when you're young and you don't know why you want

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to keep watching it so much. Yeah, but you can't

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stop thinking about it. But you don't really know and

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understand sexuality yet, but you know that you just want

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to keep watching the thing over and over again. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: They're not subtle about it being there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I can definitely respect that about this movie.

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I was like, no, this is the this is fun

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times for a lot of I could just see my

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younger self in this movie as someone who grew up

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watching Boy Meets World. And you know, I was right

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in the midst of the first wave of swishy hair.

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The Sean Hunters. The Devin sawwas like, I see it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, t Pega is an entire generation of dudes first.

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Speaker 1: Cunch about fabulous hair. Correct couldn't have had better. I

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mean she was famous for it to cut it off

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to make a point in the show, and our hairs

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got better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but she still has it and still looks, oh yeah,

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Well she shows up like social media always like yep,

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we're still good. But that in this movie, of course,

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all of these same things are providing that.

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Speaker 3: For this generation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And something you didn't mention that I think is

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important to mention, is that also a goal of like

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a final goal sort of of the continue continued trios

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of the Demon Hunter. Is this idea of creating the

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Golden Moon. Yes, that'll be like the final boss of

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the Hunt Moon. Once they do the Golden One, they

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won't really have to worry about demons anymore. It kind

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of feels like they're they're working up to that and

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then they can be done.

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Speaker 2: Correct, Like they can steal it forever and the demons.

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Of course, notice that right in the beginning they almost

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got there. The one moon flashed a little bit gold

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and then the demon's urgency to launch. This plan was

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prompted by that because they see this future coming where

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they are sealed out and can never feast on souls again. Yeah,

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as we get to know these characters and get to

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know a little bit more about what they're going on,

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plus a dope soundtrack that just makes this kitty crack,

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and then eventually, because you hear it enough times, the

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songs are infectious and all parents are now.

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Speaker 3: Going like, damn, it is an earworm. It's just an earworm.

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Speaker 2: It's like stuck in my head, to the point that

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one of my friends from where who also has a

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little girl in this age group, sent me a glorious

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meme of somebody like just cutting completely across traffic.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, and then they flashed to what was.

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Speaker 2: Going on inside the car joke, and it's just a

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mom like straight up whaling golden, whaling, golden. The number

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of memes I've seen, like we all know that you're

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sitting at stoplights singing golden and like you see like

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metal heads doing and even going like with the windows

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rolled up, and like see if people just like bagging

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her head.

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Speaker 3: What you think I'm listening to? What I'm actually listening to?

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Speaker 1: Golden.

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Speaker 2: It's a cultural phenomenon and I'm excited we're talking about

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it today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I know, the big idea we wanted to

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hit with this episode is the idea of self acceptance,

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because that is the obvious main message of the movie

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and all the elements to it. And I know where

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we wanted to start with that idea is actually starting

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with what are the barriers to self acceptance? Because as

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we're meeting the main character, Roomy, she is someone that

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has not accepted obviously the demon part of herself, because

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I guess one thing we didn't mention is that if

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you're a demon, you have these things called patterns on

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you which look kind of like tribal tattoos, yeah esque,

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And she has those on her body that no one

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knows about, but her foster mom Feline are kind of

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like aunt mother figure. In the start of the movie,

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we're meeting someone who does not accept their actual self,

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their full self. She does not.

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Speaker 2: She has been taught yes, not too because of how

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it will be seen by others. There's many powerful scenes,

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even going back to and Roomy is a clearly maybe

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oh like a six year old that Selene is having

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her cover up those patterns because of the way those

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will be seen. And she's Selene's telling her you're not

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like them. Those patterns are just remnants, but you still

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have to cover for them up because of how people

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will see them, especially other hunters.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so we come into the story where there is

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this very rigid idea about demons, obviously, and about any

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sort of association with demons or anyone who is a

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part of the demon world, like Ginu. There's this rigid

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id idea that Rumy has been taught. Well, they've all

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been taught that demons are capital E evil, capital B bad.

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There's no wiggle room around that they are bad. You

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can even tell us they're writing that takedown song later

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that their ideas are really extreme, and that becomes more

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and more highlighted as Roomy is creating more flexibility within

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herself of like how she appeels about the idea of

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demons as a total right.

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Speaker 2: We even see they're all programmed with this song. Even

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as kids and kids sing songy wait we are Hunter's

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voice is strong, slaying demons with our song fix the

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world and make it right when darkness finally meets the light.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so truly actually black and white, thinking light and

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dark thinking very yeah, very extremes, no gray area, no nuance,

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no negotiation. And so then when someone like Roumy comes

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into existence, she's literally like the gray. She is indeed

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the gray. And so we see someone like sele Lean

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try to reconcile that kind of do mental gymnastics around

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that by by trying to like make this like all

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of a sudden, these exceptions, but still with this idea

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that this part of you that is obvious and like

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literally on your skin and growing and growing is bad.

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And so she like that rigidity still remains in the

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messaging that's Lene's giving Roomy basically her daughter, like she

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can't wiggle that for her.

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Speaker 2: She can't, and she struggles to accept or know what

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to do with it herself because she got the same messaging.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Unfortunately, she's doing what a lot of parents

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and adults will do when they've been raised within like

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a rigid cultural belief for very understandable reasons, you know,

244
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Like I don't want to ignore the fact that a

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lot of people were getting hurt in this movie by demons.

246
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Yeah they wema, you know what I mean, Like they're

247
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not misunderstood bad guys overall.

248
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Speaker 2: No, this movie kept the ideas real simple bad guys

249
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are bad. And the number of missing posters we see

250
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for people that the demons of their souls, it's quite

251
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clear they're hurting people.

252
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so there's an understanding of where Sleine's coming

253
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from and why she feels like it's the right thing

254
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to do to continue these ideas, these strict ideas with

255
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Rumy and the sacrifice of that, or the cost of that,

256
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is Roomy being in this place where she thinks there's

257
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something bad about her, because that is the message you're

258
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saying that demons are point blank, no negotiation bad. I

259
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am obviously part demon, right, So something is wrong with

260
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me that I need to fix. I mean, that's literally

261
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what she's saying for most of the movie. I need

262
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to fix myself.

263
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Speaker 2: And each time we see her struggle with that kind

264
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of thought and that shame that goes along with it,

265
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the patterns grow mm hmm, yeah, up to the point

266
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that they start covering her throat when it starts damaging

267
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her voice.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Which is something that we'll be getting into more

269
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is how, at least in the work of the I

270
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do when people have these ideas in their heads about themselves,

271
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negativity about themselves, shame about themselves, especially if it's something

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that's been reinforced by beliefs in their childhood, beliefs in

273
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their parents, beliefs from society at large. Sometimes a way

274
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that people deal with it is by hustling really hard, overfunctioning,

275
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trying to be perfect, to like overcompensate for what they

276
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perceive as bad about themselves. And I think with her,

277
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you see right, I mean, this is how kind of

278
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the movie kicks off, is that she has this anxiety

279
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and urgency to make the Golden hone moon, because then

280
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she'll be good and what's wrong with her will be fixed.

281
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And ironically, this is how I perceive it is that

282
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her rush to do that and over well, the pressure

283
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,080
she puts on that actually gives her what they call

284
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:53,639
in sports psychology the yips yep where she loses her voice.

285
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And that to me, I don't know if you thought

286
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,480
read it differently or more as part of a demon

287
00:14:57,519 --> 00:15:00,519
mythology stuff, but I read that more as just how

288
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like a psychosomatic response to the stress and to the

289
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situation she's in.

290
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Speaker 2: I mean, it's certainly what they're metaphorically representing Yeah, absolutely,

291
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and that plus the deeper motivation to be fixed and

292
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be good enough and finally be able to be okay,

293
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to have more than one person see the real her.

294
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Speaker 1: Yeah, because she can't.

295
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Speaker 2: And it's beautifully woven into this whole metaphor and within

296
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the narrative that when they're all trying to relax after

297
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this tour, what is the name of the song that

298
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gets dropped right after they do the couch Couch Couch.

299
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Speaker 1: Golden And she doesn't allow that, she can't tolerate them

300
00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:43,200
waiting any longer to release that. Nope.

301
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Speaker 2: Well, she saw flashes of the Golden hun Moon, Oh

302
00:15:46,159 --> 00:15:48,559
yeah during that last show, and she wants to capture

303
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,200
because she's I think the director said like twenty two

304
00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:57,919
twenty three somewhere in there. And the lack of ability

305
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,600
to connect to other people's limited I guess developing ability.

306
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Speaker 1: I guess what why?

307
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Speaker 2: I say the developing ability to connect to other people's

308
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:11,320
experience is a little restricted by her deep want and

309
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,080
need to be accepted as she is, but she can't

310
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:16,720
do it until she's good enough.

311
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Speaker 1: And a prime example of the limiting factor of it,

312
00:16:20,519 --> 00:16:23,879
like a concrete example is how they talk about going

313
00:16:23,919 --> 00:16:26,320
to the Korean spa, the spa as a way to

314
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,919
relax and how bath house. I love a Korean spa.

315
00:16:29,639 --> 00:16:31,200
I always just thinking it was Krireans spouse. I love

316
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,759
to go to the Korean Spa. There's one in Niles,

317
00:16:32,799 --> 00:16:35,799
Illinois that's stove called King Spam fevor in the area.

318
00:16:35,919 --> 00:16:39,000
Hit it up forty dollars for twenty four hour, be

319
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,200
bopping around, and it is like a cultural touchstone of

320
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,600
Korean culture to go to the bathhouse and relax, But

321
00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:46,759
you will be full naked as someone who goes to

322
00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:49,279
the Korean spa, you get full naked in front of everybody.

323
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,279
So it is limiting her ability to engage with her

324
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,639
friends in an activity that they all share, to engage

325
00:16:55,639 --> 00:16:59,399
in a relaxation technique that's very connected to their real

326
00:16:59,519 --> 00:17:03,399
friendship and also their culture and community. Yep. And so yeah,

327
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,000
things are being kept from her and also things that

328
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,200
she's having more more difficulty explaining away. So it's also

329
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,079
the pressure of secret keeping.

330
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Speaker 2: Correct In a culture where there's not as much body shame, yeah,

331
00:17:16,559 --> 00:17:21,559
but there's conduct shame. People are much more free, especially

332
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,039
with same sex. Opposite sex would be no go which

333
00:17:24,039 --> 00:17:27,480
they make clear like this is the men's bathouse. Oh sure,

334
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,599
you know, the body shame is much different in their

335
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,079
culture than us here in the especially Midwest USA.

336
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,039
Speaker 1: Because my wife actually.

337
00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:40,279
Speaker 2: Had gotten us tickets to the Kingspa thing, and like,

338
00:17:40,319 --> 00:17:42,559
once I looked more into it, I was like, yeah, no,

339
00:17:43,079 --> 00:17:44,759
I don't think I want to spend my day off

340
00:17:44,799 --> 00:17:46,039
being naked with a bunch of dudes.

341
00:17:46,519 --> 00:17:48,440
Speaker 3: This does not actually appeal to me.

342
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,599
Speaker 1: You should do it, you'd love it. I love it.

343
00:17:50,599 --> 00:17:53,400
I've got to Kingspa all the time. I don't think

344
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,279
that I would get naked with other men. Ben, everyone

345
00:17:56,319 --> 00:17:58,960
start chanting, send us email, say Ben, get naked at

346
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,000
the Korean Spa. I don't think it's going to happen,

347
00:18:01,039 --> 00:18:03,319
but it's not. And also that's like twenty five percent

348
00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:04,799
of way I know are a.

349
00:18:04,839 --> 00:18:07,680
Speaker 2: Lot of the things looked really nice and if that's

350
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:09,440
optional to do all that side of it, and I

351
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,400
get that it's pretty freeing.

352
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:12,640
Speaker 3: It's not like they make you do that.

353
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:14,200
Speaker 2: If you want to go in the pool or do

354
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,160
that thing, that's that's kind of how that goes, and

355
00:18:16,519 --> 00:18:17,039
that's fine.

356
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,359
Speaker 3: People can do that if they want to.

357
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,079
Speaker 2: It's just not my jam But the thing that I

358
00:18:21,079 --> 00:18:24,440
think is really important with that is recognizing how odd

359
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,160
it is your roomy won't go where her friends or

360
00:18:27,759 --> 00:18:30,960
the other girls in their band are like, dude, because

361
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,359
everybody does this, why will you not go with us?

362
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so common that they can't stop trying to

363
00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:39,440
talk her into it, which I think is something we

364
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,839
do when there's something that's very obvious. Yeah, and a

365
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,839
culture is like eventually when we're down, she'll go to

366
00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:48,400
the bathouse of us, because yeah, it is such a

367
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,240
part and you're right, like when I go to the

368
00:18:50,759 --> 00:18:54,160
Korean Spa, when I go to Kingspa, I didn't start

369
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,759
going until I was in my thirties. Yeah, and I was, Yeah,

370
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,279
girls girls of all ages, like old women, younger women,

371
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,680
kids are in there. I don't think younger than like

372
00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:05,480
maybe nine or something. There is like an age limit,

373
00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,319
and it is really rad to see. You're right like

374
00:19:09,319 --> 00:19:12,279
about the body, except in part that it's all bodies,

375
00:19:12,319 --> 00:19:15,160
all different kinds of bodies, and everyone's very chill about it.

376
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,039
And I remember even thinking the first time I went,

377
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,160
it would have been so cool, as like a younger girl,

378
00:19:20,559 --> 00:19:26,079
to see so many different body shapes so normalized and

379
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:27,000
so relaxed.

380
00:19:27,319 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 2: And this movie did a pretty good job of showing

381
00:19:29,839 --> 00:19:32,640
very different body topes just in the background characters. Yeah,

382
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,759
the main characters are pop stars, so I mean everybody's

383
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,640
and they're also like warriors, right, and even the.

384
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 3: Demons, like everybody's pretty fit.

385
00:19:40,039 --> 00:19:43,400
Speaker 2: But the general population, they did a really good job

386
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:44,480
of being pretty representative.

387
00:19:44,599 --> 00:19:46,680
Speaker 3: But people look lots of different ways.

388
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then going into the bathhouse to kind of

389
00:19:49,319 --> 00:19:52,920
tie these ideas together would still unlike here where people like,

390
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:54,640
if my body doesn't look the way I wanted to,

391
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:55,279
I'd never go.

392
00:19:55,839 --> 00:19:59,599
Speaker 1: Or just like our puritanical modesty culture where people would

393
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,960
just I know so many people I guess you included

394
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:08,039
Ben who die at the idea of being naked, amongst others.

395
00:20:08,079 --> 00:20:10,599
Speaker 2: It's not that, it was more of the situation of

396
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,440
taking a day off for that that I wasn't mentally

397
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:14,240
prepared for.

398
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 3: It's not like the modesty right, Like that's just weird.

399
00:20:21,279 --> 00:20:21,480
Speaker 1: You know.

400
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,759
Speaker 2: Sure my wife and I are doing a thing for

401
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:29,119
us and then being separate and being uncomfortable and like

402
00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:30,559
adapting to a new thing.

403
00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:32,599
Speaker 3: That's nothing wrong with it, just very new.

404
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,559
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's definitely a culture shock. Thing from someone

405
00:20:35,599 --> 00:20:37,960
who was raised in the Midwest and raised to be

406
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,920
very modest and puritanical about my body and nudity, right,

407
00:20:42,079 --> 00:20:44,039
you know where I'm still getting shipped from my mom

408
00:20:44,079 --> 00:20:48,480
about wearing shirts where the shirt doesn't touch my pants.

409
00:20:49,599 --> 00:20:51,720
Speaker 3: To shee you sit about you know, your shirts being

410
00:20:51,759 --> 00:20:52,759
beyond your fingertips too.

411
00:20:53,319 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 1: No, it was never that intense, so I'm but I

412
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,680
didn't also try to wear short skirts, so maybe that

413
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,400
would have made a difference. A part of what we're

414
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,880
going into as well is how the rigid cultural ideas

415
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,119
and messaging from Selene then translates as secret keeping, which

416
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:13,359
then translates into these situations for Roomy where she is

417
00:21:13,519 --> 00:21:17,839
very isolated, yeah, and has to keep she Yeah, she

418
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,079
has to keep a part of herself truly locked away

419
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,240
from her friend. She has to lie to her closest confidants,

420
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,000
the two women that she puts her lives in their

421
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,519
hands every day.

422
00:21:29,279 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 2: And presumably they're making millions of dollars because they've got

423
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,359
like their own more than that.

424
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, probably they're billion billion.

425
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,279
Speaker 1: They're the way that pop stars are nowadays.

426
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,319
Speaker 3: They've got an entire industry.

427
00:21:39,839 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and so how lonely she must feel from

428
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,400
well that standpoint if you think about that, like being

429
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,640
a pop star and the loneliness of that lifestyle that

430
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,519
I think is very true for most people that are

431
00:21:50,519 --> 00:21:51,799
at that level of fame, And.

432
00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:53,640
Speaker 2: I think they touch on that in this movie pretty well,

433
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,839
like kind of illustrating the isolation that they have to

434
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,799
kind of go out incognito so they don't get more help.

435
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,000
They can't just have their own life without taking precaution.

436
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so so there's some loneliness and that true,

437
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,559
and I think that would be maybe like an acceptable

438
00:22:08,559 --> 00:22:12,079
sacrifice because of the greater good that they're doing with

439
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,880
their cause, not just pop stars, but you know, keeping

440
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:19,920
humanity safe. Yeah. But then Roomy can't even be fully

441
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:25,079
transparent and close to the small circle that she has

442
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,720
because of the messaging that she's gotten from her parent basically.

443
00:22:29,519 --> 00:22:33,519
Speaker 2: Right, which in Asian cultures is in particular, it's really

444
00:22:33,519 --> 00:22:38,720
important to understanding the collectivism and the impact of shame

445
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,160
on how people see themselves. So it's not just the individual,

446
00:22:43,279 --> 00:22:46,160
it's also how she fits into society as a whole,

447
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,160
So like multiple layers of shame and impact on what's

448
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,599
happening to her and the motivation to keep it restricted

449
00:22:55,799 --> 00:22:59,039
from both her and Selene, her mother figure. And I

450
00:22:59,079 --> 00:23:03,240
think all of those really factor into how we see

451
00:23:03,279 --> 00:23:06,880
the character of Roomy develop and grow, and why when

452
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,039
she sings the last song, it's so the last.

453
00:23:09,799 --> 00:23:14,319
Speaker 1: Two free and what it sounds like.

454
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,319
Speaker 2: What it sounds like, Yeah, free and what it sounds

455
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:22,000
like are really illustrative of her working on breaking free

456
00:23:22,039 --> 00:23:26,039
of how constricted she feels, and her and Genu both

457
00:23:26,079 --> 00:23:29,480
even though they're four hundred years apart, recognizing, yeah, this

458
00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:31,680
is kind of the culture here, and we all feel

459
00:23:31,759 --> 00:23:32,880
the impact of this well.

460
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,319
Speaker 1: And also because the jumping off of that, what genus

461
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:41,039
darkest shame is and what makes him vulnerable to Guima

462
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,359
and to staying on the side of I guess demon

463
00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:47,759
the demon world is the fact that he chose himself

464
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,200
over his family, that he chose a life of comfort

465
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,519
in the palace, Yeah, over his family, which is something

466
00:23:55,559 --> 00:23:59,079
he also keeps a secret fully from Roumy, for the

467
00:23:59,079 --> 00:24:01,519
same reason that room is keeping secrets from everybody else,

468
00:24:01,559 --> 00:24:03,519
which is, you know, if you tell me that a

469
00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:07,640
part of me is inherently bad and our culture reinforces it,

470
00:24:07,759 --> 00:24:11,559
then I can't tell their people that because they will

471
00:24:11,559 --> 00:24:14,319
think I'm bad, I won't have anyone in my life.

472
00:24:14,839 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 2: Right, because they don't just reinforce, they enforce yes. And

473
00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:21,079
if I'm seeing as shameful, that's intolerable.

474
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:21,519
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

475
00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:23,799
Speaker 2: And I think to kind of build up that, it

476
00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:25,960
seemed like, though we don't see it, it seemed like

477
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,599
the subtext that Gino was giving us was that it

478
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,000
was grimand that tempted.

479
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 3: Him to do that in the first place. It kind

480
00:24:31,279 --> 00:24:32,000
offered him a deal.

481
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,559
Speaker 1: He made a deal with the devil basically, right, made

482
00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:37,680
the deal with the devil, though in a very desperate time.

483
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,359
It seemed like it was very survival oriented. Yeah, and

484
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,799
desperation oriented absolutely, that he made that decision. How we

485
00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:50,200
can all make really horrible decisions when we are feeling desperate,

486
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,160
when we are feeling unsafe, when we need to survive,

487
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,559
and also when we're really young. So I assume he

488
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,119
was also probably a teenager or twenty when that happened

489
00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:58,480
as well.

490
00:24:58,599 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 2: I presume he was around the same age that yeah

491
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,359
she is now, or maybe even younger. That he started

492
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,319
like sixteen and then moved into that palace life as

493
00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:10,000
he got into his early twenties. Before we dive deeper,

494
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,319
into kind of the impacts of that. We should probably

495
00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:14,359
take a break here, so in order to cover up

496
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,160
for that shame, that inherent guilt and the cultural pressures

497
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,880
that later that on top of the individual shame and

498
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,039
guilt their regrets to shame the guilt that they feel

499
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,720
personally plus societally. Right, it affects both of those characters,

500
00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:29,960
and also it affects Zoe and Mira too.

501
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,279
Speaker 3: We just only get little glimpses of it here and there.

502
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the shame as well. Not to use

503
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,279
that word that we've been using all episode already, but shame.

504
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,759
The shame of it is that are you feeling shameful

505
00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:44,599
about using the word shame? Maybe because I feel shame

506
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,160
that I should have a bigger vocabulary than that. You know,

507
00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:50,519
let's not pathologize me right now, then, I'm not pathologizing

508
00:25:50,599 --> 00:25:53,680
Gil that in keeping the shame too. It also when

509
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,039
we do seecret keeping out of shame, right, especially with

510
00:25:57,079 --> 00:25:58,960
people that are very close to us, which is usually

511
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,400
honestly who we keep them secrets from. Sometimes too, we

512
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,160
feel the most at risk of losing those people like

513
00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:07,759
we read them the most. We can counterintuitively keep more

514
00:26:07,799 --> 00:26:11,400
secrets from people closer to us because we want to

515
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,160
keep them or we're more invested in their opinion. Like,

516
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,279
there's a lot of elements that can make that happen.

517
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,039
Speaker 2: Yes, we are wired to be social creatures for pack animals,

518
00:26:21,039 --> 00:26:24,960
and love in its rost form, at least according to

519
00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:28,160
Sue Johnson, who's created emotionally Focused Therapy, which is a

520
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,799
couple's love is a survival mechanism that we form these

521
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:38,079
bonds with the people who create a reliable, dependable source

522
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,440
of needs getting met. And absolutely the people closest to us,

523
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:43,759
the ones that have earned our trust.

524
00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: It's invaluable. Yeah, And where you were going with the

525
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,440
mirror and Zoe part of it is what also is

526
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,240
awful about the secret keeping. They don't know what's going on,

527
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,240
but they can tell over the course of the movie

528
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,319
that something obviously is wrong. She has the yps. She

529
00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:04,119
is being even more secretive and avoid ye of them

530
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,440
and with drawn, Yeah, withdrawn. And then when the finally

531
00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:09,759
the secret comes out at the end and she tries

532
00:27:09,799 --> 00:27:12,240
to go towards them, but she's like fully patterns out

533
00:27:12,279 --> 00:27:15,160
and they're like, oh, is that if then your secret

534
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,519
comes out after the fact, or if your friends or

535
00:27:18,519 --> 00:27:22,920
close loved ones are making assumptions. The long story short

536
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,039
of what I'm saying is you also can no longer

537
00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:27,440
control the narrative if you rely on secret keeping, because

538
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,920
other people in your life, if they do give a

539
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,920
shit about you, we'll start picking up on whatever weird

540
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,000
stuff you're doing. Character weird, avoid any behavior you're doing,

541
00:27:36,519 --> 00:27:38,720
and they may come to their own conclusions, or they

542
00:27:38,799 --> 00:27:41,359
might think that you're mad at them or something, and

543
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,519
then their response to you you might misunderstand. As see,

544
00:27:45,599 --> 00:27:48,720
they can tell that I am bad, and then it

545
00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:53,279
can perpetuate this secret keeping shame spiral.

546
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 2: They can get stuck in absolutely and there is no

547
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,559
accident in this movie. This movie is clean. And we

548
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:08,119
see this all explode on stage in front of an

549
00:28:08,319 --> 00:28:13,279
entire stadium full of people where the demons imitate Mir

550
00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:15,559
and Zoe and this song Takedown that they've been working

551
00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:20,240
on to it kind of get into a diys war.

552
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, distracts going around.

553
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,599
Speaker 2: Right with the Saja Boys, the Demon band, and you

554
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,200
see Roomy struggling with like trying to rewrite the lyrics

555
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,480
as she's getting more empathy for Genu, but the hate

556
00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:36,039
part of it it comes out is that these the

557
00:28:36,079 --> 00:28:39,000
demon sees and imitate Miror and Zoe and seeing this

558
00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:41,680
song to her, that's clearly they're breaking up the band

559
00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:45,200
because she sucks and it's happening in front of everybody,

560
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,039
and then they pull her sleeves off to show her

561
00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:53,119
patterns to the whole world to the point where it's undeniable,

562
00:28:53,559 --> 00:28:58,960
that visceral feeling of nope, hmm, nope, that's why. That's

563
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,920
why you don't tell anybody, because it'll blow up in

564
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:02,359
your face.

565
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, it starts to become a self fulfilling prophecy because

566
00:29:06,359 --> 00:29:09,200
what her friends are really mad about is that they

567
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,000
don't know what's going on. They're just forming their own

568
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,319
conclusions based on their own belief systems, their own messaging,

569
00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:16,799
and the fact that if you've been keeping this a

570
00:29:16,839 --> 00:29:18,480
secret for me, then it must be bad because that

571
00:29:18,559 --> 00:29:20,039
self perpetuating idea.

572
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 3: Mira looks at her and says this whole time.

573
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: Exactly, and someone like Mira, you can not keep secrets from.

574
00:29:27,759 --> 00:29:30,599
Speaker 2: Mira goes into her room and like hasing a moment

575
00:29:31,359 --> 00:29:32,880
vulnerability is asking.

576
00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: Her, Sup, Yeah, you're being weird. This is your opportunity

577
00:29:36,319 --> 00:29:37,640
to come clean.

578
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 3: Kind of talk to me. Because Mira has revealed.

579
00:29:40,359 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: I wish we got to know more about Miraa and Zoe,

580
00:29:42,079 --> 00:29:44,440
but we get I agree that kind of snippets at them,

581
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,759
and I'm sure we will later. But the looks at them,

582
00:29:47,799 --> 00:29:51,839
we see Mira is clearly insecure and has been kicked

583
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,960
out of her family or left it and isolated from them,

584
00:29:55,039 --> 00:29:58,759
and views these girls as her found family, and she's

585
00:29:58,839 --> 00:30:02,200
profoundly attached and terrified that she will lose them. And

586
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,759
then to see that this whole belief system that they're

587
00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:09,000
all supposed to have been adherent to. The demons are bad,

588
00:30:09,119 --> 00:30:13,720
but one of them has patterns, lows her whole narrative

589
00:30:13,759 --> 00:30:17,480
that she traded everything for, and you see her she

590
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,400
says something like I knew none of this or I

591
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:20,880
knew this was all too good to be true.

592
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, she has like a nihilistic statement. She makes very painful,

593
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,880
very painful, and like I said, it's this is where

594
00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:32,200
secret keeping and the shame can really start to like

595
00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:36,279
eat itself and supply itself. At this point in the story,

596
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,960
Rumy does look like more of a demon, right. She's

597
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,759
got the one eye, she's got the voices kind of changing.

598
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,160
The one hand is demony she does unfortunately looks scarier. Yeah,

599
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,839
and she's transforming. And also because she waited so long

600
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,759
to tell her friends what's going on, which that can

601
00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:55,880
happen I think a lot in real life, which is

602
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,480
people will sit on a secret, well, they'll secret keep

603
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,839
about something they think shameful about themselves or something they've

604
00:31:00,839 --> 00:31:02,920
done that they think shameful, and then the longer they

605
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,920
sit on it, the worse it gets. Then it's like

606
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,680
they're lying on lying and lying. The thing that they're

607
00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:10,079
secret keeping maybe gets to a point where it might

608
00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:11,400
actually be pretty.

609
00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:13,279
Speaker 3: Bad and dangerous to everyone.

610
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then they finally tell the people, and then

611
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,440
they get their reaction. They're fearing, not because the people

612
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,599
wouldn't have accepted them in the very beginning, but they

613
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,160
waited un till it got to a point where it

614
00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:25,839
is really hard to explain away or to get people

615
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,480
to have the patience to listen.

616
00:31:27,839 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, because now you put them in danger as opposed

617
00:31:30,039 --> 00:31:32,240
to everybody approaching it from a point of safety.

618
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

619
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: But now it's out in the open, and not only

620
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,079
are Mirah and Zoe finding out that she's part demon

621
00:31:38,119 --> 00:31:42,279
and has been her whole life, everyone else knows it too,

622
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,720
m or I mean, I guess it doesn't.

623
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 3: The general public doesn't know.

624
00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: What's going on. They maybe think she has these They

625
00:31:49,519 --> 00:31:52,599
just know that the band's fighting and broke up, right.

626
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: It's just like they're a little ambiguous about whether regular

627
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,720
people even see the demons.

628
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they talk about how all the things as

629
00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:02,720
they do are like special effects, right, Wow, they have

630
00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:06,359
such cool stage production, right when they're flying in the air.

631
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,119
Speaker 2: I guess that's the one inconsistency because they when they.

632
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: Show like the rules of the world in that way, right.

633
00:32:12,119 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 2: When they show like the feudal people, they clearly are

634
00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:17,359
aware of the demons and are afraid of them. And

635
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,880
then the hunters come in and like people are clearly

636
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,160
hiding and cowering from the demons when the hunters are

637
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,680
destroying them, like sweeping through town when they're Yeah, which

638
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:26,920
is telling the legends.

639
00:32:27,039 --> 00:32:30,119
Speaker 1: Yet the biggest celebrities in the world aren't being recognized

640
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,359
as slang demons correct on top of trains and stuff

641
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:33,720
like that.

642
00:32:33,839 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: Correct that that is the one inconsistency that I found

643
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:37,720
in the film, And I was kind of like, well,

644
00:32:37,799 --> 00:32:39,319
hold on, yeah, what are the rules of the world?

645
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,000
What are the rules here, like can people see the

646
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,680
demons or not? So it's where if you feel even

647
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:43,559
confused now, it's like.

648
00:32:43,599 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: Or even like do they do something to them that

649
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,000
like wipes people's memories or like can they not see

650
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,720
them even the hunters themselves. Yeah, you're right, there's a

651
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,759
little because I watched a lot of Buffy the Vampire

652
00:32:52,759 --> 00:32:55,440
Slayer when it first came on TV, so like eleven on,

653
00:32:55,839 --> 00:32:58,720
maybe even younger, and a big part of that show

654
00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:01,200
is what you're talking about is where she's like trying

655
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,400
to make up bullshit reasons for why she's out at

656
00:33:04,519 --> 00:33:07,279
night doing this, why you might have saw her hit

657
00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:11,599
that guind face, why she's got a bruise on her face.

658
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:13,839
You know, Like a lot of her stuff is the

659
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,519
stress of being incognito doing something very wild, pretty out

660
00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:21,480
in public. So you're right, especially Cain, they given the

661
00:33:21,759 --> 00:33:24,119
recognition of our main characters.

662
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would think that there'd be some awareness that

663
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,960
demons are real in the world and.

664
00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: Like that it's their job to take care of them,

665
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,160
and that's part of why they're so.

666
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,119
Speaker 2: Loved, right, unless that's one of the functions of the hound.

667
00:33:35,039 --> 00:33:39,079
Speaker 1: Maybe to kind of keep people in the dark no

668
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,920
pun intended, right that they don't.

669
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 2: They don't see it, and part of the Houtmon's magic

670
00:33:43,279 --> 00:33:44,599
is to make it so they.

671
00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: Keep us signorant. Yeah, maybe I could see that. Maybe

672
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,400
if we knew more about the cultural understands too, whatever,

673
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,920
like under context, cultural context. I'm sure this a lot

674
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,319
of this stuff comes from. Sure, maybe would help us

675
00:33:56,359 --> 00:33:59,440
if everyone knows and we're just ignorant to it. Email

676
00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:02,759
us or me suggests on Instagram or Facebook or someone, right,

677
00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:05,880
which is where are not Korean? We are end? Yeah,

678
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,159
So like, if there's something about this, we're being very

679
00:34:08,559 --> 00:34:12,079
and if anyone's like screaming at their car radio or

680
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,760
they're into their headphones or whatever, you can let us know.

681
00:34:16,119 --> 00:34:20,400
We're open to learning. Yes, we're very open to learning.

682
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 2: The things that we see in this film, you know,

683
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,599
come from a new culture understanding being introduced to us,

684
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:29,679
which is part of the power of this film that

685
00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:32,440
we're even talking about it. And I think that's a

686
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,039
good thing that we're getting exposed to more cultures in

687
00:34:35,079 --> 00:34:38,840
film and more nuances about so many things, instead of

688
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,039
it being like and here's the pretty White Princess and

689
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,000
her world in France and here's the pretty white princess

690
00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:48,679
in Germany, and what about the pretty white Princess Norway.

691
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,320
This is a good thing that we're seeing people from

692
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,360
different parts of the world and different things and learning

693
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,840
about different cultures through this beautiful art form.

694
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: And there's lots left to learn.

695
00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: What we do see on this lovely counseling, and we

696
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,760
see the impact of this shame and guilt and the

697
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:10,760
isolation it creates. We definitely see some overfunctioning and perfectionism.

698
00:35:10,199 --> 00:35:12,559
Speaker 1: Well, and that also goes back into like the all

699
00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:16,360
or nothing thinking, which is you're either like all good

700
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,760
or you're all bad. And how that matches the rigidity

701
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,280
of the messaging given to to all the girls and

702
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:24,679
to Selene you know what I mean that they all

703
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,639
have been carrying for generations, generations and generations. Yeah where,

704
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,039
because it's so rigid there, Like I said, there isn't

705
00:35:31,079 --> 00:35:36,159
any room for an anomaly like Roomy. There's no framework,

706
00:35:36,199 --> 00:35:39,159
there's no schema, there's nothing, And so Selene's kind of

707
00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:44,519
trying to shove Roomy into the schemas that she already has, yep.

708
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,960
And all that does is perpetuate that rigidity, like I'm saying,

709
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,800
and it gets to the climax of the movie If

710
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,920
You Will, where after the sort of breakup on stage

711
00:35:55,039 --> 00:35:58,599
where everyone sees her patterns, she goes to Selene and

712
00:35:58,639 --> 00:36:01,239
she's literally like, you should just kill me. She kind

713
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,079
of actually says like you should have killed me as

714
00:36:03,119 --> 00:36:06,079
a baby. You missed your chance. You should just kill

715
00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:09,480
me now, which that is such a that's like taking

716
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,599
that all nothing thinking to like the farthest realm that

717
00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:15,599
it could go, which is either I am good and

718
00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:18,280
I stay alive or I'm bad and I am I

719
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,480
should be dead. And that does show up in real

720
00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:22,519
life when people are like I could argue that is

721
00:36:22,639 --> 00:36:24,719
roomy suicidal in that moment, you know what I mean,

722
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,679
and how that does show up. She kneels down with

723
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,719
the sword. Yeah. I thought she's, yeah, gonna take it

724
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,199
to the chest. For a second, I was like, I'm

725
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,239
sure a movie like this for kids wouldn't have done that.

726
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:34,840
So I was like, oh my gosh, where this is going.

727
00:36:35,039 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 2: Well, she's shown even more shame by like offering it up,

728
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,119
offering it up and saying, I you know, I won't

729
00:36:41,119 --> 00:36:41,559
fight you.

730
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: There can be passivity to sudicidal ideation, which is I

731
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,199
will just let something happen to me, right, or I

732
00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:49,519
will put myself in situations where something is more likely

733
00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:52,400
to happen to me. Like it's not always I'm going

734
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,639
to stab myself with the sword. Nope, it can be

735
00:36:55,639 --> 00:36:57,800
like I'm gonna put myself in a position for someone

736
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,400
else to stab me with the sword. Right, I don't care

737
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,079
for myself. I won't fight it.

738
00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: I won't fight hers suicide by cop yeah, or like,

739
00:37:05,079 --> 00:37:07,559
I mean that's a more active one, but the passive

740
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:11,239
suicidal ideations can be much more difficult to see.

741
00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And even in the situation like Roomy, you could

742
00:37:14,039 --> 00:37:18,280
argue that she's just trying to fulfill her cultural thing,

743
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:19,960
you know. I mean there's honor with that, you know,

744
00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:23,719
there can also be like honor within these ideas, yeah, and.

745
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,559
Speaker 2: Honor of taking herself out or she's the problem, yeah,

746
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:28,079
and it's getting taken out.

747
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: And like Selene has that big reaction because obviously she

748
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:33,360
loves Roomy and she's known room of her whole life,

749
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,039
and Roomy is a good person and her daughter more

750
00:37:36,119 --> 00:37:39,199
or less exactly, and like the last thing she has

751
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,599
of I'm assuming her best friend, which is Roomy's biological mom.

752
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,880
I assume we don't know their story yet, right, And

753
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,440
we don't see the other song It'sister, either, which is

754
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,840
also weird. It's like everything, it's like life starts, like

755
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,519
history starts kind of in this movie, right where we

756
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:56,159
started with movie. But this is where kind of the

757
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,719
rubber hits the road in the sense that Rumy is

758
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,639
trying to honestly fulfill the rigidity of the cult, of

759
00:38:02,679 --> 00:38:05,159
the messaging and the belief system that she's been shown

760
00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:07,880
her whole life. And Selene's the one that has the

761
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,840
conflicting reaction, Right, I love you, don't do that. I

762
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,920
don't want you to be gone. I want you to

763
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,440
be here with me. But and I know I usually

764
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,400
say and, but this is a butt situation. There's definitely

765
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:24,000
a butt situation. I am still not going to address

766
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,440
or challenge the ideas that got us in this fucking situation.

767
00:38:28,039 --> 00:38:30,719
Like Selene is the one I was the most irritated

768
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,360
with and disappointed with. Yeah, I can see where she's

769
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,360
coming from, of course. And she fucked this girl over,

770
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,039
you know, and then did it again. And then it's

771
00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:41,480
shocked when this girl's like fucking kill me, you know.

772
00:38:41,639 --> 00:38:43,719
And then yeah, and then she doubles down like, which

773
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,159
is a product of hypervigilant, like the ideas we just

774
00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:47,400
have to keep covering it and then we have to

775
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:48,760
keep lying to your friends.

776
00:38:49,079 --> 00:38:51,360
Speaker 3: We can fix it by staying the same.

777
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,079
Speaker 2: And that scene I think is the most powerful one

778
00:38:54,119 --> 00:38:54,880
in the entire film.

779
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: That was really a good moment, Like when she's like,

780
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,280
we'll just cover it up and we'll just tell Mira

781
00:38:59,599 --> 00:39:02,760
and so we that it was all a trick by demons,

782
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,360
And I'm like, that's like the worst thing you could

783
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,400
have said, doubling down on the messaging when this girl

784
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,199
is clearly could not be in more agony and she

785
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:11,960
came to you for help, and she came to you

786
00:39:12,199 --> 00:39:16,360
and she's so vulnerable, And I think vulnerability as created

787
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,239
by shame is a topic. I don't know if we

788
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,000
want to take a break and then jump into that.

789
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,639
Speaker 2: I think so, because I definitely have a lot to

790
00:39:22,679 --> 00:39:25,039
say about in that scene in particular, because I think

791
00:39:25,079 --> 00:39:27,159
it was, like I said, probably the most impactful one,

792
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,079
and I think it's going to be adopted by a

793
00:39:29,079 --> 00:39:30,760
lot of people. So yeah, we can take a break

794
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:32,559
here and come back to that. Where do you want

795
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:33,039
to start with that?

796
00:39:33,119 --> 00:39:37,159
Speaker 1: It seems like this well where my brain's going is

797
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,920
taking that idea and going into different scenes. So if

798
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,159
there's more you want to say about this particular scene,

799
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:44,880
I want to throw it to you. Sure.

800
00:39:45,079 --> 00:39:48,079
Speaker 2: So, I think in this scene, we see this recurrent

801
00:39:48,119 --> 00:39:51,840
place where they've been training, and I think it's a cemetery.

802
00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:54,079
They clearly got this tree with ribbons tied into it.

803
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very momentous place for them.

804
00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it seems like it's a spiritual place.

805
00:40:01,599 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes, it does seem like a very meaningful place

806
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:04,119
for them.

807
00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 2: As they she goes to find Selene, their Slene's clearly

808
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,239
aware that the world is going to shit because she's armed.

809
00:40:11,519 --> 00:40:14,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, and might even be praying. You see this movie

810
00:40:14,119 --> 00:40:16,039
more than me. But it does seem like she's like

811
00:40:16,079 --> 00:40:17,880
having a moment of reflection. Yeah.

812
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,519
Speaker 2: I think maybe she's kneeling and then she stands up

813
00:40:20,559 --> 00:40:22,679
quickly with her scythe But she's clearly afraid.

814
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: She's aware of what's happening.

815
00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:26,199
Speaker 2: And the thing I think in that confrontation, like you're

816
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,039
describing where Rumy comes to her, she is full half

817
00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:31,880
demon at this point, like two face.

818
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, the one eye, the one hand, the voice is

819
00:40:34,679 --> 00:40:36,679
coming out at times.

820
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 2: You know, the more angry she gets, like she's less

821
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:43,239
reserved and guarded and perfect. She's raw and emotional. She

822
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:48,800
is not measured and logical and driven. She is pure emotion.

823
00:40:49,639 --> 00:40:52,320
And when that demon voice comes out with the echoes

824
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,679
and the modulation on it, it's clearly meant to.

825
00:40:55,599 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 3: Show this is odd, scary, it's unnerving.

826
00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:01,679
Speaker 1: It's very again, it's type for her and against type

827
00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:02,159
for culture.

828
00:41:02,599 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 2: Oh yes, And looking at that moment where she's confronting

829
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,320
her and saying, why couldn't.

830
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: You love fling? Yeah, as I all of me? Because

831
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,800
she goes like do and she's like oh, and I'm

832
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,559
like that's right, girl, scream at her.

833
00:41:16,599 --> 00:41:18,039
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that moment, like as I was

834
00:41:18,079 --> 00:41:21,079
watching out, this is going to be adopted by a

835
00:41:21,199 --> 00:41:23,519
lot of people, but in particular, I think the LGBT

836
00:41:23,559 --> 00:41:27,320
community is going to attached to that probably has and

837
00:41:28,079 --> 00:41:30,039
seeing that, like, why couldn't you love all of me

838
00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:32,679
instead of trying to only love the part of me

839
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:33,920
that fit your image?

840
00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 1: Yes? And that's that's fucking real. Like, that's that's a

841
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,599
message that I think can translate overall cultures absolutely some

842
00:41:41,639 --> 00:41:43,719
form of the other. I think of all the cultures

843
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,360
too that have like I said, I think at the beginning,

844
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,079
like rigid religious beliefs too, And how there can be

845
00:41:49,159 --> 00:41:53,320
this idea that there is like a little morality basically,

846
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,679
and I can't hate this in love the center like

847
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,480
that's kind of a version of that pretty much bullshit. Yep.

848
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,079
Speaker 2: I go Amish parents who just have children that are

849
00:42:02,199 --> 00:42:03,880
jerked off as they call it.

850
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: Oh did you know that? You know that I didn't

851
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,119
know that phrase. I'm assuming it means something different. Yep.

852
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:12,880
Do they know what it really means within the Amish community,

853
00:42:13,039 --> 00:42:14,960
I have no idea, good question.

854
00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:18,519
Speaker 2: It's what it means when people leave the faith and

855
00:42:18,599 --> 00:42:19,400
they do their.

856
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,159
Speaker 1: A and then choose to leave.

857
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, it creates a complicated relationship with the parents where

858
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:28,639
they don't know what to do. How do they love

859
00:42:28,679 --> 00:42:31,119
their child and have contact with them, but the child

860
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:32,760
is living in a totally different world.

861
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,559
Speaker 1: Which you're right, is like with the LGBTQ community, and

862
00:42:36,599 --> 00:42:38,239
I see a lot of parents try to do a

863
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,880
version of this, which is like I love you, just

864
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,840
keep that part of your life away from me. Yep,

865
00:42:44,199 --> 00:42:49,920
same shit, And that doesn't work because, like Remy was saying,

866
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,920
we all have all of us as all of us.

867
00:42:54,079 --> 00:42:56,920
But it's simply to tell someone to keep a part

868
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,039
of them hidden is to reject them. Yes, And that's

869
00:42:59,079 --> 00:43:01,760
the long and the short of this actually was that

870
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,480
is an obvious part of our identity that is not

871
00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:08,239
something you can hide or you can perform out of.

872
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,000
Like if you are more effeminate and you're a great person,

873
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,480
acting more masks, you know what I mean. Like, it's

874
00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:15,679
just this idea that you have to perform a version

875
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,239
of yourself so that you can be loved, requires then

876
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,760
you to reject a part of yourself, which is rejecting you.

877
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:22,800
It's masking, it's all that stuff.

878
00:43:22,639 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 2: And it becomes a huge issue. And I think that

879
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:31,119
scene in particular really echoed a lot of social and

880
00:43:31,159 --> 00:43:35,760
cultural issues that just like we're ascribing different things to it.

881
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,199
I think it's a very projective scene that allows people

882
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,239
to see themselves and feeling not loved and that a

883
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,960
person is expressing unconditional love to them.

884
00:43:45,199 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 1: But it's not. It's conditional. It is conditional. If you're

885
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,119
telling your kid, I do love you, but that part

886
00:43:51,119 --> 00:43:53,199
of you ew, I don't want to hear about it,

887
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,320
or just don't tell me about it. That is that

888
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:56,639
is conditional then, and.

889
00:43:56,559 --> 00:43:59,639
Speaker 2: It is therefore cognitive dissonance. You are doing a different

890
00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:01,199
thing than you are saying.

891
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 1: Oh, and Selina's got cognitive dissonance in droves oh totals,

892
00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:10,199
and you can see like in the acting of the

893
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,000
animation or struggle with that.

894
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,679
Speaker 2: Right and Roomy is flat calling her on it, which

895
00:44:14,679 --> 00:44:17,519
has been fears that she's had for her whole life.

896
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,599
I'm sure of feeling that she's almost lovable, but she'll

897
00:44:22,639 --> 00:44:25,199
be fully lovable. I don't think she feels unloved, but

898
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,920
she's not fully lovable until she gets these patterns off

899
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:30,360
and fixes everything.

900
00:44:30,559 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 1: Which is something that I see a lot in a

901
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,920
lot of my clients and that I've experienced myself. Like

902
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,480
I come from a very I was very impacted by

903
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:42,880
diet culture, just because I was growing up in the

904
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,280
nineties early two thousands when the fashion was low rise

905
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,800
jenes or really the fashion was being very thin. Yep.

906
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,079
The accessory was your flat stomach, right. And I'm not

907
00:44:52,119 --> 00:44:53,960
a naturally thin person. I never have been, I never

908
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,239
will be. That's like one of those things where it's like,

909
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,639
if I can just get thin enough, then I'll have

910
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,920
act to everything else. And people have that about money,

911
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:10,840
about status, about relationships, about being more modest or being pure.

912
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,199
If we're thinking of this more in the religious ways,

913
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,800
suppressing parts of yourself, and then if I can finally

914
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:18,800
just squash that part of me or fit in and

915
00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:21,960
conform in this way, then I'll finally be happy. But

916
00:45:22,079 --> 00:45:24,480
because it's not authentic, really it's a lot of work.

917
00:45:24,519 --> 00:45:27,880
Because even here in the movie, this idea that Selene

918
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,519
has been selling Roomy that once they get the Golden

919
00:45:30,559 --> 00:45:33,199
hund Moon that her demon self will go away, they

920
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,840
don't know that that's not proven. They've never had in

921
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,920
a situation like this before, they never had a Golden

922
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,440
hun Moon, and they've never had someone like Roomy. So

923
00:45:40,559 --> 00:45:43,599
also who knows what would have happened when the Golden

924
00:45:43,679 --> 00:45:47,079
hunt Moon went down, right, Nobody knows. So it's also

925
00:45:47,519 --> 00:45:50,400
similarly magical thinking. The way that when I have to

926
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,599
have had done my own therapy, and also when I

927
00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:54,880
work with clients with this kind of stuff, is that

928
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,639
it's a very it's magical thinking this idea that I'm

929
00:45:57,639 --> 00:46:02,599
only one change of myself alf away, yeah, from having

930
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,360
no problems, right, I.

931
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 2: Mean, when I was a kid who had to do

932
00:46:07,119 --> 00:46:10,480
therapy on myself of realizing because I got dealing with

933
00:46:10,519 --> 00:46:13,320
bullies because it kept trying to fit in with wanting

934
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,199
to have the things that the cool kids had. But

935
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,920
what I could not see was the the thing was

936
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,880
the exclusivity that they could other be. I didn't have

937
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,800
the Jordans or the right jeans or whatever else. And

938
00:46:24,119 --> 00:46:28,079
it wasn't until therapy had helped me realize, Fuck those people,

939
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,039
They're not going to accept you anyway because you keep trying.

940
00:46:32,079 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 3: You try, and you get the cool thing.

941
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 2: You beg your parents to do the thing, and then

942
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,800
the one thing or whatever you get them to bend on.

943
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,239
You're like, I have the thing, I can be cool now. Nope,

944
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,719
you're still fuck you. You're still not good enough.

945
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 1: Well, and even like another direction in the similar vein

946
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,639
of that is that you might get that thing and

947
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:55,000
you won't necessarily feel any different. You probably won't feel different. Nope,

948
00:46:55,079 --> 00:46:59,079
because it's an inside job problem an outside job. It's

949
00:46:59,119 --> 00:47:02,920
both well in how you think about yourself. Also, let's say,

950
00:47:03,039 --> 00:47:05,440
in the example I gave about like being thin enough,

951
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,119
obviously everyone's not meant body wise to be thin. No,

952
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:13,800
you know that's not how diversity with biology works. For example,

953
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,880
if I were to get as thin as I thought

954
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,800
I should be in my head, that would be my

955
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,719
full time job is being that thin and saying that thin,

956
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,400
I would always be performing thin. It's like there wouldn't

957
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,599
be an end to that game. Whereas in the magical

958
00:47:27,639 --> 00:47:29,559
thinking that I think she has and that a lot

959
00:47:29,599 --> 00:47:32,159
of people have, which is once I get hit this milestone,

960
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:36,119
then I can finally relax. But because you're trying to

961
00:47:36,159 --> 00:47:38,880
be in an authentic version of yourself, by nature of that,

962
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,280
you're always going to be.

963
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:41,679
Speaker 3: Working a whole.

964
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 1: You're never going to take a fucking break. Especially if

965
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,960
you keep building your life around this trait of yourself

966
00:47:48,039 --> 00:47:50,880
that you've manufactured. Right, then you do get in that

967
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,000
situation like we've been talking about, where to maintain the

968
00:47:54,079 --> 00:47:56,199
life that you feel like you need to feel okay,

969
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,679
you have to keep performing, and so then the risk

970
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,599
of being yourself gets bigger and bigger and bigger and

971
00:48:01,639 --> 00:48:03,960
bigger and bigger. So you have to keep the secretcies

972
00:48:04,119 --> 00:48:05,599
is like horrible cycle.

973
00:48:05,599 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 2: And the fear grows, and the reactivity to it grows,

974
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:14,280
and the feeling of being imprisoned and trapped and therefore

975
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,760
in danger. It grows, it grows, and it grows, and

976
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,960
we see that with Roumy and I was so fucking

977
00:48:21,039 --> 00:48:24,480
proud of her. And what this movie is representing is

978
00:48:24,519 --> 00:48:27,960
really like kind of gen Z stepping into the world

979
00:48:28,639 --> 00:48:31,519
and saying, fuck this, we can't win this way.

980
00:48:31,639 --> 00:48:34,079
Speaker 3: I am proud to say fuck you.

981
00:48:34,679 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 2: And of course it's a kid's movie, so she didn't

982
00:48:37,519 --> 00:48:39,599
say it that way, but she said something along lines

983
00:48:39,599 --> 00:48:42,880
of if this is what it takes to keep the

984
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,440
hon moon, I'm proud to watch it get destroyed.

985
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,159
Speaker 1: Well, that's a great point too, which I was gonna

986
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,039
I highlight it in my notes, is that also, if

987
00:48:52,039 --> 00:48:55,800
you raise a kid to have very rigid beliefs, then

988
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,159
if when they inevitably freak out about it kind of

989
00:48:59,159 --> 00:49:01,239
we're saying they like reach breaking point, they are then

990
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:06,519
more susceptible to having a reactive rigid belief a different

991
00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:09,960
rigid belief exact, which for her could be then fuck

992
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,199
you guys. I mean, like in this there's a version

993
00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:13,400
of the story where she's like, you know what, I

994
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,400
will be a demon. You know, if I can't be

995
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,079
a good guy, then I'll be a bad guy. And

996
00:49:18,119 --> 00:49:20,159
I see that a lot with kids too. The reopen

997
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,239
environments where they can't please, they can't fit in to

998
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,239
the rigid ideas within their family or culture that gain

999
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,599
them access to like love and acceptance, then they will

1000
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,519
just go the whole opposite direction. Because if you're not

1001
00:49:33,639 --> 00:49:37,639
taught nuance in the way that in flexibility, really it's flexibility.

1002
00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:39,960
If you're not taught how to be flexible in your thinking,

1003
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,280
you have to learn how to be flexible in your thinking,

1004
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:45,519
and you have to you have to make a choice

1005
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,079
in like therapy or other things to practice flexibility. You do,

1006
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,320
and so you don't just get it one day. And

1007
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,639
so in her situation, there is a realistic maybe maybe

1008
00:49:56,679 --> 00:49:58,760
even a more realistic version of the story where she

1009
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,199
goes full bad well demon because she's like fuck the

1010
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,360
hun noon. Then like when she kind of says, like

1011
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,440
what good is it? Then yeah, and she goes full

1012
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,239
the other way because she only knows how to live

1013
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:11,679
in these rigid ideas.

1014
00:50:12,039 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 2: She right, And in order to live in rigid ideas

1015
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:19,599
like that, you become inflexible because you're trying to fit

1016
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,960
the chaos of the world and the changes that happen

1017
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,039
into a narrative that no longer applies to it. Because

1018
00:50:26,079 --> 00:50:32,079
it's from a previous generation's viewpoint, and sometimes many times

1019
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,440
that wisdom can be taken into account, but it does

1020
00:50:36,519 --> 00:50:42,400
not always apply to what's happening now. And it's vital

1021
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,920
that when working with kids are people of different generational spots,

1022
00:50:46,199 --> 00:50:49,880
that you don't try to force them to adapt to

1023
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,199
your narrative, but you listen to what their reality is

1024
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:58,960
and help them understand theirs. Having a seven year old daughter,

1025
00:50:59,079 --> 00:51:02,480
I know school is different for her than it was

1026
00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:06,440
for me. Some things are not different. Kids are still

1027
00:51:06,679 --> 00:51:09,159
the way that they were. They're shitty and mean and

1028
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,599
trying to figure out who they are and bully each other.

1029
00:51:11,679 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: But a lot of things are not the same.

1030
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,599
Speaker 2: And for me to assume the way things were for

1031
00:51:16,679 --> 00:51:18,639
me and how I would have solved problems will work

1032
00:51:18,679 --> 00:51:21,159
for her is ignorant and it won't work. And we

1033
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,280
see a beautiful moment where instead of going full villain,

1034
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,119
we see Roomy going too full acceptance and realize, I

1035
00:51:28,199 --> 00:51:32,719
can't win your way. I can't win and keep myself restricted.

1036
00:51:33,199 --> 00:51:37,039
If I try and keep doing it this way, it

1037
00:51:37,159 --> 00:51:40,679
is going to fail. So she finds that kind of

1038
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,119
benefit of nihilism, going like fuck this nothing matters doing

1039
00:51:44,159 --> 00:51:46,519
it this way, So why not try another way? Where

1040
00:51:46,519 --> 00:51:49,519
she goes, I'm going to try accepting myself. I'm going

1041
00:51:49,559 --> 00:51:52,000
to try listening to what Ginu told me. There's a

1042
00:51:52,039 --> 00:51:54,440
really powerful statement he made to her that I think

1043
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,840
sunk in and prompted this was if hate could have

1044
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,599
defeated Guima, I would have done it a long time ago.

1045
00:51:59,679 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 1: Trust he was being authentic there.

1046
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 2: Ghama punished him for that, and that's what prompts this

1047
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,559
whole sequence. He goes through the free song and then

1048
00:52:07,599 --> 00:52:09,599
betrays her in the takedown song.

1049
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,119
Speaker 3: He orchestrates that. But seeing this is really important.

1050
00:52:12,119 --> 00:52:13,760
Speaker 2: It is a really powerful scene where we see a

1051
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,000
confrontation of what you taught me and held me to

1052
00:52:16,199 --> 00:52:18,800
is no longer applicable to reality.

1053
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 1: And I also think the sealin thing made me think

1054
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:25,599
about how she is hypervigilant. The existence of roomy probably

1055
00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:27,719
really scares her, you know, of course, and how it

1056
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,079
challenges her and makes her uncomfortable and all that stuff,

1057
00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:35,440
And so she's reacting with hypervigilance as the solution to that. Yeah,

1058
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:40,039
And then how that can create hypervigilance in your kids,

1059
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,679
It can create nihilism, it can create this idea that

1060
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,440
maybe the like I think in more realistic settings, it

1061
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:49,800
can create this idea within kids that the world is scary,

1062
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,159
or that the world's full of people who won't like you,

1063
00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:55,559
that you have to protect yourself from the world in

1064
00:52:55,599 --> 00:52:58,000
a way that makes the world a very unfriendly place.

1065
00:52:58,199 --> 00:53:02,639
And how kids can inherit that level of hypervigilance and

1066
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:07,320
anxiety that isn't I wouldn't say that is a generalized

1067
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:08,920
anxiety sword or something like that in its own right,

1068
00:53:09,119 --> 00:53:12,079
Like that's something that it can be very learned, and

1069
00:53:12,119 --> 00:53:14,840
how when we are too over the top with trying

1070
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,039
to protect our children, we can actually just be passing

1071
00:53:18,119 --> 00:53:21,599
down this idea about the world and about other people

1072
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:26,840
that can really lead children to very depressed and secure,

1073
00:53:27,519 --> 00:53:30,239
frightened places and keep them trapped.

1074
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 2: There would no resources that they can grow or develop

1075
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,480
because they are not safe enough to take a chance

1076
00:53:35,679 --> 00:53:38,519
to learn the skills to cope and adapt.

1077
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:40,280
Speaker 1: And I think this is a great time to take

1078
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,559
another break and be right back. So one thing I

1079
00:53:43,599 --> 00:53:45,840
did want to bring up, but then we went another direction,

1080
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,280
a good direction with the discussion. But one thing I

1081
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:51,559
did want to make to talk about is how when

1082
00:53:51,599 --> 00:53:54,039
you're raised with this rigidity and secret keeping and shame.

1083
00:53:54,199 --> 00:53:56,840
How it creates we talked about already like isolation, but

1084
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,239
then I think how that isolation can make us very

1085
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:05,119
vulnerable to other people, Yeah, and other messages. Yeah, and

1086
00:54:05,199 --> 00:54:07,559
so it's not even just I might view the world

1087
00:54:07,599 --> 00:54:11,079
as scary or I might be very isolated with just myself.

1088
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:13,280
I think it also creates what we see in this movie,

1089
00:54:13,599 --> 00:54:18,400
where someone like genew can come in and take advantage

1090
00:54:18,599 --> 00:54:22,519
of roomy. I know that it goes to a more authentic, genuine,

1091
00:54:22,599 --> 00:54:25,239
healthy place. Yeah, but there's a version of a story

1092
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:27,760
where that doesn't happen. I think also this movie really

1093
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:31,159
demonstrates how if you are in a situation where you're

1094
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:33,719
keeping secrets, either because you've been taught to keep secrets

1095
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,639
or you think you're supposed to keep a secret, that

1096
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,480
then it just it makes you very vulnerable to someone

1097
00:54:39,599 --> 00:54:41,159
coming in and taking advantage of you.

1098
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 2: It does, and in a less simple movie, Yeah, there's

1099
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,280
way more narrative possibilities and realism that would have hit.

1100
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:52,039
Speaker 3: This movie is very idealistic.

1101
00:54:52,119 --> 00:54:54,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's a kid's movie. Of course, because

1102
00:54:54,039 --> 00:54:55,800
I'm an adult watching it, I was like, what's this

1103
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,559
guy's game. I have that adult cynicism where I was like, oh,

1104
00:54:58,639 --> 00:55:00,920
so he's just telling the truth about all this, still right?

1105
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,960
And I think he actually was. I remember it's a

1106
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:07,599
kid's movie, so he probably is being very authentic and whatever.

1107
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,000
He also could have been saying the very same things,

1108
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,920
but in that more like grooming nefarious way. It reminded

1109
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:15,599
me a lot of and you're gonna get kicked out

1110
00:55:15,639 --> 00:55:19,960
of this Ben Star Wars and snuck snoke snuk. Oh. Yeah,

1111
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,960
this is very ky janew is very Kylo Rent, very

1112
00:55:24,039 --> 00:55:26,880
much in that. And then he tries to then project

1113
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,840
that onto like Kylo rendas to write to Ray. You know,

1114
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:31,880
I could talk about that all day, that relationship. How

1115
00:55:32,199 --> 00:55:34,719
you know he finds vulnerabilion in her because he's he's

1116
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:39,159
getting the same thing done to him. Guima is his snoke. Oh,

1117
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:41,960
because what is true about someone like Roomy when you're

1118
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,320
doing all this secret, keeping all this shame, is that,

1119
00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:46,079
like you were saying, Ben, like part of being a

1120
00:55:46,159 --> 00:55:49,599
human is wanting to be love and accepted by other people. Yep,

1121
00:55:49,679 --> 00:55:53,360
no negotiable, and that isn't something that goes away, no,

1122
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,239
as you said. And so then if you are someone

1123
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,000
who's very isolated by your shame and feels like no

1124
00:55:59,039 --> 00:56:01,360
one will ever love you or no wherever like you.

1125
00:56:01,639 --> 00:56:04,719
Then someone comes in, like Genu, who's very cute. All

1126
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:06,719
of a sudden, he's saying all the right things. He's

1127
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,039
saying that like kind of scary stuff. Off, no one

1128
00:56:09,119 --> 00:56:12,880
understands you like me. Yeah, it's a very scary thing

1129
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:15,400
for someone to say to anyone, because that's that's a

1130
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,199
big red flag, y'all if anyone's ever like, no one

1131
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:20,840
gets you like me. Oh, no one understands you like me.

1132
00:56:21,079 --> 00:56:24,440
And that's him trying to insert like take well, he's

1133
00:56:24,519 --> 00:56:27,719
taking advantage of the fact that that is how she

1134
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,199
really feels and she is wanting someone to finally love

1135
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,840
her unconditionally, and so there are people in the world

1136
00:56:34,039 --> 00:56:37,119
obviously who will take advantage of that. And you see

1137
00:56:37,119 --> 00:56:40,199
that in like controlling relationships things like that. Where that

1138
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:42,119
could where this movie could have gone if it was

1139
00:56:42,119 --> 00:56:45,679
like a darker adult movie. Is he sweeps in and

1140
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:50,440
he fully like controls her because he has connected unconditional love,

1141
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,840
even though it wouldn't be eventually to him creating an

1142
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:58,320
isolation chamber, which is what we see with I'll Go

1143
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,719
back to star wars Kyla Ren Snow and then what

1144
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,000
he tries to replicate with Ray, which is you're nobody

1145
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,000
but not to me right and Gin you kind of

1146
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,000
does the same thing to Roomy oh, which is also

1147
00:57:10,079 --> 00:57:12,880
so when you engage in shaming your kids or secret

1148
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:16,159
keeping about things, you are opening up the back door

1149
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,760
to your kid for someone to sneak in. Who will

1150
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:20,920
tell your kid, oh, no, I love you no matter what,

1151
00:57:21,159 --> 00:57:23,280
or actually, like, I really like that about you. And

1152
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,800
then if you're already someone who keeps secrets, then you

1153
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:27,880
won't have a problem keeping a secret about this person.

1154
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,760
It's just it's a fertile round for a lot of

1155
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:31,320
bad stuff.

1156
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,679
Speaker 2: And we've been warned about this thing through media since forever.

1157
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,079
Even as you're saying this is what's occurring to me,

1158
00:57:38,199 --> 00:57:39,039
is Pinocchio?

1159
00:57:39,239 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: Hm?

1160
00:57:40,119 --> 00:57:43,559
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, honest, Tom red Flag.

1161
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:45,159
Speaker 1: You want to come be a donkey son?

1162
00:57:45,639 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 2: No, but he wants them to come perform the donkeys.

1163
00:57:49,639 --> 00:57:51,599
I think it's a separate plot line.

1164
00:57:51,679 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 1: I haven't watched Pinocchio in a thousand years.

1165
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 2: Anyway, You see it like Pinocchio wants nothing more than

1166
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,199
to be like a real boy and to be accepted

1167
00:57:58,239 --> 00:58:01,159
into like to be seen, and Geppetto doesn't let him.

1168
00:58:01,199 --> 00:58:04,519
So the first person that comes along and it's like, hey,

1169
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,599
you want to be seen, he's like go on, yeah.

1170
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:12,039
Speaker 1: Because basically, you're creating a starvation within yourself, if it's

1171
00:58:12,079 --> 00:58:15,360
you that's secret keeping to yourself, or if you the

1172
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,320
parent are encouraging secret keeping, like in this movie, you're

1173
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:21,559
creating a stay of a starvation in your child. And

1174
00:58:21,679 --> 00:58:24,800
if they get an opportunity to get fed in this area,

1175
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:25,559
they will eat.

1176
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 2: And this is what attachment theory is really all about, exactly,

1177
00:58:30,119 --> 00:58:33,360
because the more that people have a hunger, the more

1178
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,000
they're going to seek and be unable to resist.

1179
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:38,719
Speaker 1: They need to get fed in that way. And you

1180
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:40,960
see it, and it doesn't take long for Roomy to

1181
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:43,320
get really sucked into Genu, and I think that's realistic.

1182
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,280
It's someone like her who's so isolated.

1183
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,679
Speaker 2: Yes, but it also remember like with this movie, a

1184
00:58:49,079 --> 00:58:51,119
Ginu is just as sucked in by her.

1185
00:58:51,599 --> 00:58:53,519
Speaker 1: And that's also where I was going to go to,

1186
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:58,000
is that he's his own isolated echo chamber right where

1187
00:58:58,079 --> 00:58:59,880
he's only getting this one message that I'm a piece

1188
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:03,079
of and I did something really shitty that's like my

1189
00:59:03,159 --> 00:59:06,719
defining event for four hundred years. He starts to get

1190
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,960
swayed by that. His feels a little, his feels less

1191
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,320
problematic because he's his more feels like he's actually getting

1192
00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:16,559
out of his isolation and out of zecho chamber in

1193
00:59:16,639 --> 00:59:18,480
that like both being part of the Sondra Boys and

1194
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,079
when they're at the publicity thing and she's like, maybe

1195
00:59:21,079 --> 00:59:23,039
you should listen to these voices, not the ones in

1196
00:59:23,079 --> 00:59:27,239
your head. Like he's getting more exposure to alternative views

1197
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:27,920
of himself.

1198
00:59:28,159 --> 00:59:31,039
Speaker 2: That's true, but remember his first motivation is to get

1199
00:59:31,039 --> 00:59:31,920
the voices to stop.

1200
00:59:32,119 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 1: Yes, And so he's got his own desperation, and then

1201
00:59:35,039 --> 00:59:38,039
that gets pulled back in because then Guema like doubles

1202
00:59:38,039 --> 00:59:40,440
down and he does the shame secret keeping stuff too,

1203
00:59:40,519 --> 00:59:42,719
where he's like, if she knew who you really were,

1204
00:59:43,039 --> 00:59:43,960
she'd fucking hate.

1205
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:48,239
Speaker 2: You right where And Grimaud at the introduction of Genu,

1206
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,119
tells us I've known you for four hundred years.

1207
00:59:51,199 --> 00:59:52,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really know you.

1208
00:59:52,159 --> 00:59:56,039
Speaker 2: You've never done a single thing that didn't benefit yourself.

1209
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:58,480
What do you want? Like he clocks him immediately, like

1210
00:59:58,719 --> 00:59:59,960
you're full of shit, what do you want?

1211
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,159
Speaker 1: Yeah? But also he's been living in this world for

1212
01:00:03,199 --> 01:00:06,559
four hundred years where you weren't encouraged I assume to

1213
01:00:06,599 --> 01:00:10,199
do anything but self serving bad things of course.

1214
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,719
Speaker 2: But then shamed for them. Yes, so that Guema could

1215
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:13,559
maintain control.

1216
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's a that's a self perpetuating situation.

1217
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're seeing him kind of break out of it,

1218
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,559
so it gets it is complicated in that way. The

1219
01:00:22,599 --> 01:00:25,800
best version of it happened where Ginu is struggling to

1220
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,400
escape because what you're saying is true, Like he gets

1221
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:31,159
kind of pulled out of it when he sees someone

1222
01:00:31,199 --> 01:00:32,840
with pattern living free.

1223
01:00:33,039 --> 01:00:35,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think it's part of the thing too.

1224
01:00:35,239 --> 01:00:38,719
We've been talking about where to open up and to

1225
01:00:39,119 --> 01:00:42,840
trust others, you have to take risks, whether it's like

1226
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:46,400
actual risks or more just emotional risks, risks against maybe

1227
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,119
the belief system you have, So you're taking some form

1228
01:00:49,159 --> 01:00:51,840
of risk yep, even when she's saying things like maybe

1229
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:53,719
you should listen to those voices not the ones in

1230
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:56,639
your head, kind of pulling him out a bit. Yeah,

1231
01:00:56,679 --> 01:01:00,280
you can feel him acknowledging that he's taking a risk

1232
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,920
and that that's like ooh scary obviously, And so he's

1233
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:06,639
in that moment where he is also very vulnerable in

1234
01:01:06,719 --> 01:01:08,519
terms of like do I take a risk and really

1235
01:01:08,519 --> 01:01:11,920
go for it and be brave, yeah, or do I

1236
01:01:12,159 --> 01:01:15,519
go back to what I know? And unfortunately Weima grabs

1237
01:01:15,599 --> 01:01:20,760
him during that very trepidacious period. Yep, unfortunately does that

1238
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,039
thing that does happen in real life, which is you

1239
01:01:23,039 --> 01:01:25,039
can't do that. If they only knew the real you,

1240
01:01:25,119 --> 01:01:28,760
they'd hate you, and just reaffirms the things that scare him,

1241
01:01:29,159 --> 01:01:32,480
just scares him back into his hole. Correct. Yeah, he's

1242
01:01:32,519 --> 01:01:34,119
popping his head out. Yeah.

1243
01:01:34,199 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 2: I think the whole point of his interactions and sneaking

1244
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,519
off them, sneaking off to meet each other in very

1245
01:01:40,639 --> 01:01:42,320
geen romance thing is like trying to figure out and

1246
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:45,320
find your way, and yeah, have somebody else that sees

1247
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,079
you and it actually be like a moment that their

1248
01:01:48,159 --> 01:01:51,519
mask is down mm hm and they're telling you the

1249
01:01:51,559 --> 01:01:53,920
truth and they're letting you in and it feels really intimate.

1250
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:58,360
But you, unfortunately, when we're young and blinded by love

1251
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,599
and lust, we like you before, get a little stupid

1252
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:05,639
that we can't see even sometimes when people are being

1253
01:02:05,679 --> 01:02:10,199
genuine with us, that they may not being genuine with themselves,

1254
01:02:10,639 --> 01:02:13,519
or they may be being genuine to the degree that

1255
01:02:13,559 --> 01:02:16,159
they are capable of, but it may not be their

1256
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:17,039
entire motivation.

1257
01:02:17,159 --> 01:02:20,159
Speaker 1: Well. Yeah, and even from the sense of protectiveness to

1258
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:24,559
in guardedness, like the hypervigilance we mentioned earlier that it's

1259
01:02:24,599 --> 01:02:28,360
so hard to break out of that. And also part

1260
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,880
of that hypervigilance and part of when you're in your

1261
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:35,400
own like shame spiral, is that you can assume that

1262
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:37,960
other people think the way that you do, or that

1263
01:02:38,039 --> 01:02:41,000
other people can't like you like you're trying to, like

1264
01:02:41,039 --> 01:02:45,199
cognitive dissonance wise, you're trying to make the external stimuli

1265
01:02:45,719 --> 01:02:48,519
match your internal beliefs. And so how that can look

1266
01:02:48,559 --> 01:02:50,960
too is you're being really nice to me, But are

1267
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:52,800
you being nice to me because you want something from me?

1268
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:54,880
Are you being nice to me because YadA YadA, YadA,

1269
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:57,280
YadA YadA, you know, poking holes in it? Yeah, which

1270
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:01,800
allows us to stay in our little bubble of security,

1271
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:05,840
even though the security can feel hellish in nature. And

1272
01:03:05,920 --> 01:03:08,320
I think that's part of it too, even with Genu

1273
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:10,840
trusting Roomy well and vice versa. But I think more

1274
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:13,760
Genu trusting Roomy is that he's coming from such a

1275
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:17,039
place that has well in the hell world he's in.

1276
01:03:17,599 --> 01:03:20,679
It's like such a place of everyone's out for themselves,

1277
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:24,639
everyone's intentions are bad. And if that's the belief system

1278
01:03:24,679 --> 01:03:28,039
you have, not necessarily about yourself, but about everyone around you,

1279
01:03:28,719 --> 01:03:31,239
then it's hard not to assume those things are true

1280
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:35,000
when other people with other people, even if they're showing

1281
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:39,199
you contradictory information, so then your brain will warp that

1282
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:43,039
information to fit here a narrative. I think that's what

1283
01:03:43,119 --> 01:03:46,519
happens a lot actually, people that struggle with personality disorders

1284
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:50,320
as much as they get a very bad rap in

1285
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:53,840
our society and a lot of really mean, awful over simplifications,

1286
01:03:54,159 --> 01:03:56,800
very much of those diagnoses. When I've worked with people

1287
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:59,360
that have those some version of those diagnoses, it's really

1288
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,480
more that they have such a deep feeling of shame

1289
01:04:02,519 --> 01:04:05,679
with them themselves, and so whenever other people are interacting

1290
01:04:05,679 --> 01:04:10,559
with them, they're like contorting those experiences to match their insides. Yep,

1291
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:12,519
you can't be open other people. You have to be

1292
01:04:12,559 --> 01:04:14,400
on your guard. And a lot of people with personal

1293
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:16,679
disorders come from trauma. So like with someone like gen

1294
01:04:16,719 --> 01:04:19,119
knew like in that by environment, he didn't just come

1295
01:04:19,199 --> 01:04:21,440
up with those ideas on his own Nope, they're reinforced

1296
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,679
by life experience unfortunately.

1297
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:27,519
Speaker 2: Right, And he is taking risks to be vulnerable and

1298
01:04:27,599 --> 01:04:32,039
explore that trust, but getting pulled back in and it's

1299
01:04:32,039 --> 01:04:32,599
a struggle.

1300
01:04:32,639 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 3: He actually, you know, reminds me a lot.

1301
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:39,480
Speaker 2: I mean, besides Kylo Rn is the brother from slum

1302
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:40,159
Dog Millionaire.

1303
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 1: Oh, I haven't seen that movie since, like it first

1304
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:46,599
came out probably twenty years ago. It's wow, So I couldn't.

1305
01:04:46,639 --> 01:04:48,360
I can't grab for that reference for you.

1306
01:04:48,679 --> 01:04:53,199
Speaker 2: So the brother kind of falls into the gang world

1307
01:04:53,679 --> 01:04:56,760
more or less and realizes he can you know, he

1308
01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:00,599
kind of has like a mean streak and manipulate and

1309
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,840
kind of fawns when they're going to blind him, and

1310
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,199
he starts tricking some of the other people into being blinded,

1311
01:05:06,199 --> 01:05:07,639
and they realize that he's kind of he could be

1312
01:05:07,679 --> 01:05:11,039
like a you know, part of this is workable.

1313
01:05:11,119 --> 01:05:12,440
Speaker 1: He's workable and.

1314
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:16,079
Speaker 2: Kind of falls into that like unethical side of things

1315
01:05:16,119 --> 01:05:19,000
the whole way. And then he's part of the reason

1316
01:05:19,039 --> 01:05:23,039
that the brother gets rescued and it's him turning back

1317
01:05:23,199 --> 01:05:26,199
on the voices. But they struggle in a similar way,

1318
01:05:26,199 --> 01:05:29,159
and it's a it's a common trope that we see

1319
01:05:29,159 --> 01:05:31,800
of this person who's conflicted, but maybe they're not really bad.

1320
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:34,480
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's Darth Vader, it's Kyla Ren.

1321
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 1: And for someone like Guema, it's more about control right

1322
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:41,000
of him. Where was Selene? Like we were saying her

1323
01:05:41,119 --> 01:05:44,840
thing is more about fear and genuine anxiety that springs

1324
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:48,159
from these generational ideas.

1325
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 2: Right, Guema seems to represent the kind of inherent struggle

1326
01:05:53,039 --> 01:05:57,639
with good and evil and Selene represents the societal conformity.

1327
01:05:58,119 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, both have their their places.

1328
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 2: And I think this movie did a beautiful job of

1329
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:06,440
showing that both can be villainous, even if one is unintentional.

1330
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:08,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a break here and then we'll be

1331
01:06:08,719 --> 01:06:11,119
back with talking about sort of I guess the antidote,

1332
01:06:11,559 --> 01:06:14,039
if you will, to what we've been talking about so far.

1333
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,159
What do they say like shame grows in darkness? Yep?

1334
01:06:17,159 --> 01:06:19,679
How do you fight it? As you bring in the light?

1335
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:21,960
And how do you do that? Is what we see

1336
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,480
in this movie, which is you have to get to

1337
01:06:24,519 --> 01:06:27,519
a point where you can feel ready to take the

1338
01:06:27,639 --> 01:06:31,440
risk we've been talking about, which is can I tell someone, Yeah,

1339
01:06:31,519 --> 01:06:35,119
one person, one person, some part of what's going on.

1340
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:38,840
What she said in the movie that I wrote down. Oh,

1341
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:40,960
how like she gets her voice back when she starts

1342
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:43,880
to talk to Ginu about her shame. Yep, which is

1343
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:45,639
if I haven't heard the most simplistic way to talk

1344
01:06:45,639 --> 01:06:48,079
about therapy. I was kind of like Yanoda, but I said,

1345
01:06:48,119 --> 01:06:52,000
thought that because I'm a therapist. What what if you

1346
01:06:52,039 --> 01:06:54,000
talk to someone about what's going on with you? You'll

1347
01:06:54,039 --> 01:06:55,960
feel better and not as full of shame. What a

1348
01:06:56,039 --> 01:06:56,760
crazy idea.

1349
01:06:56,920 --> 01:06:59,639
Speaker 2: You'll be lighter and more functional and not feel so

1350
01:06:59,679 --> 01:07:00,440
comps pressed.

1351
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:03,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, wild, and you'll feel like able to do the

1352
01:07:03,719 --> 01:07:06,159
things that you love. Crazy. That's such a I mean

1353
01:07:06,199 --> 01:07:08,760
that's a very simplistic example. I mean, luckily, like we

1354
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:13,880
were saying, luckily Genos gene Genu. Luckily Genu turned out

1355
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:17,199
to be someone that didn't totally fucker over and take

1356
01:07:17,239 --> 01:07:20,480
advantage of her. No, and the end he sacrifices himself. Yeah,

1357
01:07:20,519 --> 01:07:23,760
because and everyone, because it is Harry that the person

1358
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,199
that she experiences is with is also the person who

1359
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:29,239
is taking advantage of her isolation. Yeah, that's that's a

1360
01:07:29,239 --> 01:07:30,239
scary version of this.

1361
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:32,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like there's there's parts of him that are

1362
01:07:32,119 --> 01:07:33,679
at war. He's at war with himself.

1363
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:34,199
Speaker 1: He does.

1364
01:07:34,519 --> 01:07:37,159
Speaker 2: He loses that battles, but he doesn't lose the war.

1365
01:07:37,239 --> 01:07:40,719
But in real life it's you know, it's quite rare.

1366
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,119
Speaker 1: And also in real life it's not as easy as

1367
01:07:44,119 --> 01:07:47,559
someone in your life saying I love you, Can you

1368
01:07:47,559 --> 01:07:50,400
tell me what's going on? Obviously that will help tremendously,

1369
01:07:50,599 --> 01:07:54,920
but it still requires you as the individual to take

1370
01:07:55,119 --> 01:07:57,880
the very scary and I always want to acknowledge every

1371
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:00,840
people the very scary risk of and I let someone

1372
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:04,320
see me. Can I tell someone my secret? And I

1373
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:07,159
can't control the outcome of that. I can't control how

1374
01:08:07,239 --> 01:08:09,880
they'll respond. I can make an educated guess, like I

1375
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:14,320
can definitely be thoughtful about who I choose to talk to,

1376
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,159
how I choose to tell them, and YadA, YadA. It's

1377
01:08:17,159 --> 01:08:20,079
still a risk in the sense that there's uncertainty there.

1378
01:08:20,119 --> 01:08:22,960
Speaker 2: It's a huge risk. I've been watching Yellow Jackets thinking

1379
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:27,119
about that show. Even the scene where Misty makes a friend.

1380
01:08:28,119 --> 01:08:31,119
I forgot that girl's name, but Misty makes a friend.

1381
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:34,079
Speaker 1: Is actually a spoiler alert. I mean it's three seasons in,

1382
01:08:34,199 --> 01:08:37,800
so what still just watching Yellow spoiler alert?

1383
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:39,520
Speaker 3: If you start watching Yellow Jackets in.

1384
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:41,720
Speaker 1: A streaming society, Missy, I mean.

1385
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:44,399
Speaker 2: Misty makes a friend and then tells her the truth

1386
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:47,359
about the bananas, saying that Misty did it cause all

1387
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:48,479
of them to be stuck there.

1388
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:50,800
Speaker 3: And she reveals that secret.

1389
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:53,079
Speaker 2: He's like the relief on her, But that girl's face

1390
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:56,000
goes from like they're telling each other benign secrets and

1391
01:08:56,039 --> 01:08:58,000
Misty being no why she just doesn't understand it, Like

1392
01:08:59,279 --> 01:09:03,439
this secret resulted in everybody being super fucked and people dying.

1393
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:05,199
Speaker 1: Not the same.

1394
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that girl immediately turns on it, and it's

1395
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:12,760
like that moment of shame that everyone fears, yeah, well happened,

1396
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,239
that people will reject you because of these shameful things

1397
01:09:15,239 --> 01:09:18,119
that you did. But there's only some things like what

1398
01:09:18,199 --> 01:09:21,079
Missy did that might actually cause that reaction. And most

1399
01:09:21,079 --> 01:09:23,479
of the time it's a it's a dark fantasy we

1400
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:27,079
entertain of if I say this, I'm going to be

1401
01:09:27,239 --> 01:09:30,720
rejected just like that, where someone's like, you fucking freak,

1402
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:33,760
I can't believe you are losing all of the love

1403
01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:34,640
that I ever gave you.

1404
01:09:35,319 --> 01:09:38,079
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also part of the Misty thing is that

1405
01:09:38,319 --> 01:09:40,720
what she confesses to is also a bit of an outlier.

1406
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:43,399
Right if Rumy had said to her friends. Hey, guess what,

1407
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:45,640
I'm happy to give it. And also I have been

1408
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:49,000
killing our loved ones and I've been sabotaging all of

1409
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:54,079
our plans behind your back. Hah. That's not really so

1410
01:09:54,159 --> 01:09:58,359
much as telling a secret as confessing yeah, differently something bad,

1411
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:01,760
something hurtful. And also, so I think bridging off of

1412
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:06,920
that example is when I work with people and honestly

1413
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,319
actually me as the therapist, a lot of times we

1414
01:10:09,359 --> 01:10:11,640
are obviously the first person that someone will tell a

1415
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:15,199
secret to. Sometimes I joke that I'm a professional secret keeper.

1416
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:17,560
The reason why people will tell a therapist is because

1417
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:22,000
there's a lot of ethical, expensive consequences that a therapist

1418
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,359
will face if they don't keep your secret. Yep. So

1419
01:10:24,399 --> 01:10:27,399
it's a very very very safe thing. And also, as

1420
01:10:27,399 --> 01:10:31,199
we've talked about before, more often than nine nine nine

1421
01:10:31,199 --> 01:10:33,800
percent of the time, you don't know your therapist outside

1422
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:38,199
of the therapy's relationship. Nope. So also, I have no

1423
01:10:38,359 --> 01:10:41,680
personal interest in whatever the person in front of me

1424
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:44,720
is telling me. Secret wise, Yep, it doesn't impact me

1425
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:46,960
at all. It do won't hurt my feelings. Even if

1426
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:48,760
they were saying my secret is I hate your guts,

1427
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:51,640
I'd be like, Okay, well after this, I only see

1428
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:55,840
you an hour week professionally, so I'm a safe person

1429
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:59,359
to tell a secret too, right, And so sometimes and

1430
01:10:59,359 --> 01:11:00,760
I'm sure you know that to Ben, because I'm sure

1431
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:02,640
you have the same experience. We are the first people.

1432
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:06,680
And then we can help that person through like coaching,

1433
01:11:07,239 --> 01:11:12,159
discussing processing how and when, well when if when, how

1434
01:11:12,279 --> 01:11:16,680
they feel ready to share that more with other people

1435
01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:19,680
in their life. Right, kind of going off the misty

1436
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:22,680
example is something I will tell people, especially if the

1437
01:11:22,680 --> 01:11:26,279
secret's pretty hardcore, which and it might be something like

1438
01:11:26,399 --> 01:11:27,800
I have to tell you I've been lying to you,

1439
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:31,079
or I'm having an affair or something really bleak. And

1440
01:11:31,119 --> 01:11:33,239
if it's directly impacting the person you're going to tell,

1441
01:11:34,159 --> 01:11:36,199
then I do tell them. You have to be ready.

1442
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:40,479
Part of the preparing is preparing for the potential ballout

1443
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:43,239
and the outcome. And I think with someone like Roomy, though,

1444
01:11:43,239 --> 01:11:45,960
it's more who are people in your life that feel

1445
01:11:46,079 --> 01:11:50,239
the most able to encourage you if you tell them? Yeah,

1446
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:53,239
like Selene, she knows the secret, so she wouldn't be

1447
01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:55,680
a good person to tell, But I mean that'd be moot.

1448
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:58,119
So basically, like let's say if it was more that

1449
01:11:58,199 --> 01:12:00,720
Slee she was part of a family and maybe like

1450
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:03,479
her parents are the most rigid, maybe she's a sibling.

1451
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:05,640
That's not right. I'd be like, what, who in your

1452
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:07,920
life is the person that you think might have the

1453
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:12,640
most ideal response? Sure, oh the manager, Yeah, I forgot

1454
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:14,840
his name. Yeah, that most ideal response to what you

1455
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:16,760
would share, Because you kind of want to warm them

1456
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:19,479
up too, because because it's such a risky thing that

1457
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:22,000
in such a scary thing people are doing, obviously I

1458
01:12:22,079 --> 01:12:25,399
want them to feel as encouraged as possible, and well,

1459
01:12:25,399 --> 01:12:28,760
at least as less discouraged. Maybe it's more like as

1460
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,399
minimally discouraged as possible. So a lot of it can

1461
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:35,119
be really thinking over who's the safest person you can tell,

1462
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:38,720
who think will have the best reaction or the closest

1463
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:41,239
reaction to you want to have them to have doctor Hutt.

1464
01:12:41,399 --> 01:12:43,800
And then we would talk about oh no, And then

1465
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:46,119
we would talk about how you would want to actually

1466
01:12:46,159 --> 01:12:49,920
say that secret. What's the context, what's the setting, all

1467
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,000
that kind of stuff, because also you don't want a

1468
01:12:52,039 --> 01:12:54,000
secret to just be blurted out. You don't want to

1469
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:56,560
be telling a secret when the person isn't giving you

1470
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:58,279
the full attention or doesn't know that you're about to

1471
01:12:58,279 --> 01:13:01,760
have a capital C conversation. Nope, And you don't want

1472
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:05,000
to tell maybe the highest risk person or like the

1473
01:13:05,079 --> 01:13:07,920
highest risk high reward person either. No, you want to

1474
01:13:07,960 --> 01:13:09,680
ease maybe ease into it.

1475
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:13,279
Speaker 2: It's important that you do that because people need to

1476
01:13:13,319 --> 01:13:15,600
see that. But what I think of the fantasy thing

1477
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:19,159
of the dark fantasy that people have, is they need

1478
01:13:19,199 --> 01:13:22,439
to see and feel in their body that when they

1479
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:25,279
choose to tell that safe person, that that person does

1480
01:13:25,319 --> 01:13:28,119
the opposite of that dark fantasy where they give them

1481
01:13:28,239 --> 01:13:33,279
love and acceptance. And have some clients who are entering

1482
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:38,119
their sixties mid sixties and feel shame for things that

1483
01:13:38,199 --> 01:13:41,600
happened when they were teenagers or before. Thinking people in

1484
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:44,920
their life will still see them, yeah, with the shame

1485
01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:47,680
that they see themselves and may even reject them because

1486
01:13:48,279 --> 01:13:51,000
most people have worked really hard to not be the

1487
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:54,720
shittiest version of themselves. But sometimes people hold that shame

1488
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:57,760
over themselves for their whole life, and it almost blocks

1489
01:13:57,800 --> 01:14:00,239
them from being able to love themselves, let alone some

1490
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:03,520
in particular, let someone else love them, which is kind

1491
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:06,600
of the importance of this therapy relationship where you help

1492
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:10,680
them build practice at telling the safest person possible the

1493
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:14,800
deepest secret and getting a non reaction yeah, to a

1494
01:14:15,520 --> 01:14:17,840
compassionate reaction of you were a kid.

1495
01:14:18,279 --> 01:14:20,479
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I will tell you this when it's a

1496
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:23,640
very specific feeling when a client starts to prep you

1497
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:26,279
for a secret, yep, as if they're about to tell

1498
01:14:26,319 --> 01:14:29,079
you the worst thing you've ever heard. And so then

1499
01:14:29,119 --> 01:14:31,079
in my brain, so then my brains are doing the

1500
01:14:31,079 --> 01:14:33,560
whole like make sure your faceless neutral, Yeah, make sure

1501
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:35,199
your face is neutral. Like a lot of being a

1502
01:14:35,199 --> 01:14:37,520
therapist is actually like what did my face look like

1503
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:40,119
in your own head? Do I look calm? And then

1504
01:14:40,119 --> 01:14:43,479
they'll tell me something that's so in my experience so

1505
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:47,239
benign usually or just not as like I'm ready for

1506
01:14:47,279 --> 01:14:49,399
a ten secret, and usually it's more like a four.

1507
01:14:50,399 --> 01:14:53,039
I remember one time you got a ten. Oh, that

1508
01:14:53,119 --> 01:14:55,680
is true, I have got but like more often than not,

1509
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:57,800
it's like a four or five. But because also we

1510
01:14:57,880 --> 01:15:00,520
are so isolated within ourselves about things that we feel

1511
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:04,239
shameful about, it becomes a boogeyman in our head. Yeah,

1512
01:15:04,279 --> 01:15:06,840
And then this also can be really true. More often

1513
01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:09,479
than not, you finally tell someone let the boogeyman out,

1514
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:11,800
and the usually the reactions more like oh okay, or

1515
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:15,359
kind of what these girls like mirran Zobe is like

1516
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:17,680
yeah I knew something was up, you know shit, or

1517
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:19,199
even like when people come out as gay and their

1518
01:15:19,239 --> 01:15:22,720
family's like, yeah, we knew, like I said, Like, more often,

1519
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:24,319
I don't know if this will help anybody feel better,

1520
01:15:24,359 --> 01:15:26,439
but more often than not, when a client finally tells

1521
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:30,000
me something they've been really front loading, yeah, I'm like, oh,

1522
01:15:30,079 --> 01:15:31,680
it's almost like I have to make sure not to

1523
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:34,720
like laugh or smile because I'm like, oh, okay, you

1524
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:39,199
you can't invalidate. But it's like I'm so prepared for

1525
01:15:39,279 --> 01:15:41,760
something huge that usually when I get told, I'm like, oh, okay,

1526
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:44,439
let's talk about that more. We do think we can tell,

1527
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:47,319
and you're right, like, if nothing else, we give them

1528
01:15:47,359 --> 01:15:50,680
the experience of telling someone of them doing the scariest thing,

1529
01:15:50,920 --> 01:15:53,279
finally saying the worst thing they could about themselves, and

1530
01:15:53,359 --> 01:15:55,920
getting usually probably a pretty neutral response. Yeah.

1531
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:58,319
Speaker 2: I mean, at therapists, we're largely supposed to have a

1532
01:15:58,359 --> 01:16:01,720
neutrally compassionate response, but not too compassionate, because too compassionate

1533
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:04,239
for those secrets can be invalidating.

1534
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:06,840
Speaker 1: For sure, And also I think it can be helpful

1535
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:09,760
for clients to be honest with them in the context

1536
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:13,039
of that's tough. It sounds like you made a bad

1537
01:16:13,159 --> 01:16:14,720
choice at a certain point in your life, So it's

1538
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:17,359
like it can and sometimes it can be more contextualizing it.

1539
01:16:17,399 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 2: Also, Yeah, what I like to do with those It

1540
01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:23,720
sounds like it really hurts you still, Yeah, that that

1541
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:27,239
was a true thing that happened, and that that doesn't

1542
01:16:27,239 --> 01:16:30,640
feel like the you you want to be or have become, or.

1543
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:32,640
Speaker 1: Even like the fact that it's bothering you so fucking

1544
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:35,399
much means a lot about the fact that you are

1545
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:39,800
a person who wants to be kind or nice or thoughtful.

1546
01:16:40,039 --> 01:16:42,600
You know, right, if you are really a monster, you

1547
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,439
wouldn't give a shit, not one about this thing you're

1548
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:49,079
carrying within you. Oh shit right, that's the irony of it.

1549
01:16:49,399 --> 01:16:53,159
Speaker 2: And helping people reach that point of trust and acceptance

1550
01:16:53,159 --> 01:16:56,079
where you are choosing to love you, all of you,

1551
01:16:56,239 --> 01:16:58,640
and then allowing other people to see you and seeing

1552
01:16:58,800 --> 01:16:59,640
that they can.

1553
01:17:00,239 --> 01:17:01,479
Speaker 3: And that you are lovable.

1554
01:17:02,039 --> 01:17:04,039
Speaker 2: That's what this is, what it sounds like, which is

1555
01:17:04,079 --> 01:17:08,720
ironically my daughter's favorite. But hearing and seeing the way

1556
01:17:08,720 --> 01:17:12,600
that there's this huge battle unfolding, and Roomy's showing up

1557
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:16,079
in front of everyone in her half demon form, and

1558
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:20,319
she's singing that this is who I am, nothing but

1559
01:17:20,399 --> 01:17:24,720
the truth, nothing but the truth now, and you see

1560
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:28,640
her kind of shattering that idea that I can only

1561
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:31,520
be good enough, like the cultural idea, and God can

1562
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:35,960
only be good enough by being perfect, by conforming to

1563
01:17:36,159 --> 01:17:41,880
this ideal that isn't possible. It's unachievable, it's unattainable, it's

1564
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:42,239
not real.

1565
01:17:42,359 --> 01:17:43,479
Speaker 1: Nobody can do it.

1566
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:45,960
Speaker 2: Instead of being the one example that can, I'm going

1567
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:49,199
to be an example of somebody who has tried really

1568
01:17:49,239 --> 01:17:52,840
hard and decides to stop masking and show you the

1569
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:56,479
real person underneath, not the fantasy that exists, but be

1570
01:17:56,560 --> 01:18:01,079
the real person. And through that I can myself enough

1571
01:18:01,239 --> 01:18:01,960
to be loved.

1572
01:18:02,159 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean because this is a kid's movie

1573
01:18:05,199 --> 01:18:06,840
and they want a kid to kids who get a

1574
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:09,399
very specific message from it. It does work out in

1575
01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:12,479
that she accepts herself and she walks back into that

1576
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:15,920
arena and her two friends find her. They go to her,

1577
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:17,800
and then they work together. They have a kind of

1578
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:21,159
like an ideal response. They have an ideal secondary response.

1579
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:24,239
Speaker 2: Right, and it took me many times of watching it

1580
01:18:24,279 --> 01:18:28,079
to catch the Grima was hypnotizing more or less. Yeah,

1581
01:18:28,119 --> 01:18:30,000
the crowd, right, Like the girls are all stuck in

1582
01:18:30,039 --> 01:18:30,600
their shit.

1583
01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:32,319
Speaker 1: With those little thingies too, right.

1584
01:18:32,439 --> 01:18:35,359
Speaker 2: And they're kind of they're just walking with the crowd,

1585
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:37,279
both Mira and Zoi separately.

1586
01:18:37,600 --> 01:18:39,520
Speaker 1: Well, because that whole thing too, which we haven't even

1587
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:44,800
talked about, is also how someone like Wima, a predator yep,

1588
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:47,399
I guess, can take advantage of people when they're feeling

1589
01:18:47,439 --> 01:18:51,119
vulnerable it. Yeah, so like those two, the two girls

1590
01:18:51,159 --> 01:18:54,520
are very vulnerable because their life has been exploded yep,

1591
01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:57,640
because of what's going on with Rumy, and so they

1592
01:18:57,680 --> 01:19:01,479
are prepped for someone like Wema to just like find

1593
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:05,760
those cracks and just like sink their teeth into it. Correct.

1594
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 2: And as we see that as it's happening, those shame

1595
01:19:10,079 --> 01:19:15,960
voices are coming through and hitting everyone, but they're all

1596
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:19,479
just walking like little moths into flame at that point. Yeah,

1597
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:23,560
And it's not until Droomy steps out and starts revealing

1598
01:19:23,760 --> 01:19:27,520
her shame and her vulnerabilities instead of trying to be

1599
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:31,000
this like perfect ideal thing that they can be drawn

1600
01:19:31,039 --> 01:19:34,479
to to try to be what she's displaying which isn't

1601
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:36,960
real for her either, yea. But by dropping all of

1602
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:40,199
that and being real and vulnerable and showing her scars,

1603
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:46,079
the girls also come out of their dissociation and realize

1604
01:19:46,119 --> 01:19:48,880
who they are all together. It's a super powerful positive

1605
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:53,159
message of accept yourself, accept your flaws, and people can

1606
01:19:53,239 --> 01:19:55,159
love the real you in the way that you've always

1607
01:19:55,239 --> 01:19:57,439
needed to be loved, but you can't attain it without

1608
01:19:57,479 --> 01:19:58,439
letting people in well.

1609
01:19:58,439 --> 01:20:00,159
Speaker 1: And then also, like you're saying, it can be very

1610
01:20:00,199 --> 01:20:05,479
inspirational and aspirational yep, And it does inspire, like Mira

1611
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:08,560
specifically says, she says it once in the beginning, but

1612
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:10,920
then she says it again at the end, which is

1613
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:14,039
that we are part of our like mantra that we're

1614
01:20:14,079 --> 01:20:16,720
taught by like Selene yep, and she was taught to

1615
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:20,760
I'm sure that we can't have any what do they say, Like,

1616
01:20:20,760 --> 01:20:22,800
we can't have any like mistakes or we know we

1617
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:24,880
can't have any We have to be perfect basically is

1618
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:27,079
what she says. We're not allowed to show any weaknesses

1619
01:20:27,159 --> 01:20:30,279
or vulnerabilities. That Mirror is feeling that pressure too, and

1620
01:20:30,319 --> 01:20:32,880
I'm sure and Zoe is as well, Like how Zoe's

1621
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:36,600
dealing is by people pleasing, and how Mira's dealing is

1622
01:20:36,680 --> 01:20:39,680
by being like that kind of guarded. I don't care.

1623
01:20:40,560 --> 01:20:42,600
Speaker 3: I do care, vibe.

1624
01:20:43,399 --> 01:20:48,680
Speaker 1: You know I'm conforming to not conforming, okay, Hannah, Yeah,

1625
01:20:48,720 --> 01:20:51,119
and I'm Zoe. Unfortunately, I'm working on it. I joke

1626
01:20:51,199 --> 01:20:53,399
with my clients that I'm a recovering people pleaser when

1627
01:20:53,399 --> 01:20:55,960
I'm teaching my clients how to be less people pleasy,

1628
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:57,680
and it is active work. I have to sit with

1629
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:01,720
my anxiety all the time, be like, girl, don't do it.

1630
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:03,399
I know you want to do it, but it's not

1631
01:21:03,439 --> 01:21:05,720
going to work. It's not gonna bebe a letter and

1632
01:21:06,159 --> 01:21:08,079
not everyone's mad at you, and even if people are

1633
01:21:08,079 --> 01:21:10,760
frushraer with you, and that's okay. This is the what

1634
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:13,359
I tell myself. But also something you're saying to remind

1635
01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:15,760
me of something I say to clients all the time.

1636
01:21:16,399 --> 01:21:19,039
And I do believe this because something that is corny

1637
01:21:19,079 --> 01:21:22,039
but true about me is I do think I am

1638
01:21:22,399 --> 01:21:27,239
a optimist. I think part of that is I try

1639
01:21:27,279 --> 01:21:30,199
to model vulnerability a lot. I think that's important to

1640
01:21:30,279 --> 01:21:34,960
me ethically, and being a therapist actually is being one

1641
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:38,920
a good communicator and two being vulnerable, and the more

1642
01:21:39,039 --> 01:21:42,159
vulnerable I am, the easier it is to be vulnerable.

1643
01:21:42,199 --> 01:21:45,479
Because what I typically say to people is my working

1644
01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:48,479
theory is that everyone wants to be vulnerable, but we're

1645
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:51,119
all kind of playing like vulnerability chicken with each other. Yep,

1646
01:21:51,159 --> 01:21:53,399
which is who's going to be vulnerable first? Because in

1647
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:56,199
my experience, as soon as I'm vulnerable with someone, they

1648
01:21:56,239 --> 01:21:58,319
tend to be vulnerable back. It's almost like they're weight

1649
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:01,399
They like, oh okay, fine. And I wonder with like

1650
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:04,000
Mira specifically, because she's the one that says that if

1651
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:07,079
like roomy going through this, it's like that she finally

1652
01:22:07,119 --> 01:22:10,880
gets the permission herself to take a fucking breath and

1653
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:12,920
cannot be her version of perfect right.

1654
01:22:13,000 --> 01:22:17,359
Speaker 2: And even the lyrics that the two characters say as

1655
01:22:17,399 --> 01:22:20,199
they're coming off, I think Mira says something white, I

1656
01:22:20,239 --> 01:22:23,000
try to keep the colors stuck inside my head.

1657
01:22:23,319 --> 01:22:26,960
Speaker 1: Oh, I think says that because she's more bubbly, and.

1658
01:22:27,199 --> 01:22:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah it, Zowais says that, and then Mira says instead

1659
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:32,640
of seeing something other like the colors shining off the

1660
01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:35,680
broken glass, and you can tell, like, yeah, that the

1661
01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:37,720
two kind of opposite.

1662
01:22:37,159 --> 01:22:38,840
Speaker 1: They're seeing themselves and what's happening.

1663
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 2: They're seeing themselves, and they are only doing that once

1664
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:48,119
Rumy's vulnerability is revealed and she shows it, and then

1665
01:22:48,159 --> 01:22:50,960
it does inspire them to do the same and accept

1666
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:53,399
themselves and kind of reveal the things that make them

1667
01:22:53,479 --> 01:22:56,159
and they apologize to each other kind of through this

1668
01:22:56,239 --> 01:23:00,199
song for walling each other off, because yet again, nothing

1669
01:23:00,279 --> 01:23:02,239
in this movie is an accident. In the scenes with

1670
01:23:02,319 --> 01:23:05,239
doctor Han where he points out each.

1671
01:23:05,079 --> 01:23:08,840
Speaker 1: Of their shit, it's a good exposition scene.

1672
01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:13,399
Speaker 2: Totally foreshadowing, Yeah, that it is going to take even.

1673
01:23:13,279 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 3: Though I'm full of shit. Is I'm not full of shit.

1674
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:19,279
Speaker 1: About what I see, but the grape juice I'm selling,

1675
01:23:19,359 --> 01:23:19,840
the grape.

1676
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:23,119
Speaker 2: Juice of selling, you know, is bullshit. But the points

1677
01:23:23,159 --> 01:23:25,399
that he was making were all spot on for each

1678
01:23:25,439 --> 01:23:27,600
of them. That you have to lower your walls. You

1679
01:23:27,680 --> 01:23:29,359
have to stop trying to be so scary and like

1680
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:32,880
keeping people out, and you have to stop people pleasing.

1681
01:23:33,319 --> 01:23:36,079
Speaker 1: Yeah. And a part of this, too, of like the

1682
01:23:36,119 --> 01:23:39,039
dominoes of being vulnerable, is that a lot of this

1683
01:23:39,199 --> 01:23:43,560
rigidity and perfectionism is self perpetuating in the group, right yep.

1684
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:46,479
And so I think the pressure of me to be

1685
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:49,680
perfect as Roomy is because Mirror is perfect. It is

1686
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:55,039
always perfect because that's we're all performing perfection for each other.

1687
01:23:55,399 --> 01:23:58,520
And so then also when someone finally has a vulnerability

1688
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:00,880
to be messy, I'll put it like that, not even

1689
01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:02,600
a sort of secretkeeping would just be messy. And the

1690
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:04,560
other people are like, oh, I actually am messy too

1691
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:06,600
in my own way, and they're like, oh shit, maybe

1692
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:09,640
everyone wasn't perfect and I was the only fuck up.

1693
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:12,079
Maybe we've all just been waiting, or maybe we've all

1694
01:24:12,079 --> 01:24:15,960
just been performing perfection because we're assuming everybody else is perfect.

1695
01:24:16,039 --> 01:24:19,960
Speaker 2: Correct, which is like exactly what the cultural narrative is

1696
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:21,960
of this film. It's like everyone's trying to be something

1697
01:24:21,960 --> 01:24:24,600
that they can't be, but everyone's got shit. Yeah, and

1698
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:27,439
breaking free from that is the way forward. I think

1699
01:24:27,439 --> 01:24:30,800
that's why it's resonating so hard. Do you feel like

1700
01:24:30,840 --> 01:24:32,279
there's anything else we want to say on that? Or

1701
01:24:32,319 --> 01:24:34,640
we kind of covered it all, right, So let's take

1702
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:37,079
a break there and move into truth month.

1703
01:24:37,239 --> 01:24:40,720
Speaker 1: I hear first, So I really just thought for I

1704
01:24:40,760 --> 01:24:45,079
would do family therapy with Selene and Roomy. They're obviously

1705
01:24:45,119 --> 01:24:47,640
gonna need it after this event. Oh, they're gonna need

1706
01:24:47,640 --> 01:24:50,119
it because I think they're still gonna I don't know.

1707
01:24:50,159 --> 01:24:51,840
They left it very open ended.

1708
01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:56,119
Speaker 2: Their relationship, yeah, roomy, just like aperated like it was

1709
01:24:56,159 --> 01:24:56,800
Harry Potter's.

1710
01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:01,359
Speaker 1: There's no resolution to that relationship. No, So they would

1711
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:03,399
need family therapy, and what I would want to do

1712
01:25:03,479 --> 01:25:06,439
with them is repair work. Repair work is this idea

1713
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:10,960
where you walk people through or walk people from a relationship,

1714
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:13,920
whether it's a couple or a family relationship with someone

1715
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:17,159
or even friends, maybe walk them through how to process

1716
01:25:17,239 --> 01:25:20,319
something that's already happened. A lot of times with repair work.

1717
01:25:20,399 --> 01:25:23,560
You can even google repair work and find very specific

1718
01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:26,800
questions and exercises. I use very specific questions when I

1719
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:28,640
do it. Actually just four questions I'm try to remember

1720
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:31,640
on the top of my head, But basically I asked

1721
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:34,520
people to write out what happened. Can you just tell

1722
01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:38,640
the story of what happened? What's the story that I heard,

1723
01:25:38,840 --> 01:25:41,399
What's the story that I took from that? Basically, what

1724
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:43,119
did I what was the meaning of it, how did

1725
01:25:43,159 --> 01:25:46,600
I interpret that, what was the like the subtext of

1726
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:49,520
what happened? How did it make me feel? And then

1727
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:53,399
what do I need now from this other person to

1728
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:55,800
feel better? To and it says feel better and the

1729
01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:59,880
exercise just feel better. And I think with Selene and Rumy,

1730
01:26:00,159 --> 01:26:03,119
if they want to stay in a relationship of some

1731
01:26:03,159 --> 01:26:06,159
sort of rental child relationship or even just be close

1732
01:26:06,199 --> 01:26:10,359
at all, Roomy, it deserves and will need repair work

1733
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:12,960
from Selene yep, because what it's going to require when

1734
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:15,199
you do prepare work. And I really have to think

1735
01:26:15,239 --> 01:26:17,760
that the two people I'm doing with can hang to

1736
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:23,359
do it, because you may get really brutal information yea

1737
01:26:23,479 --> 01:26:27,119
from the will Yeah, like you did this to me

1738
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:29,880
you and what I heard from that is that I'm

1739
01:26:29,920 --> 01:26:32,439
a piece of shit or that you don't care about me.

1740
01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:36,159
Like it's pretty brutal stuff all the times. And also

1741
01:26:36,279 --> 01:26:39,239
it could definitely be like a misunderstanding too. And so

1742
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:41,560
what the other what I really will do to prep

1743
01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:44,439
people is you have to just sit there and listen.

1744
01:26:45,039 --> 01:26:47,359
Do not defend yourself, Do not try to make sense

1745
01:26:47,399 --> 01:26:50,079
of it what they're saying, because this is how they

1746
01:26:50,079 --> 01:26:54,479
feel and that's real and reality is subjective. This shit

1747
01:26:54,600 --> 01:26:57,560
going on usually and especially when I do with couples,

1748
01:26:58,239 --> 01:27:03,000
is building on that moment. If I'm getting every time

1749
01:27:03,039 --> 01:27:05,840
you do this X to every time you do X

1750
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:08,720
to me, and I react why and that doesn't make

1751
01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:10,800
sense to you? More often than not, you can connect

1752
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:14,439
that reaction to a moment like this where they're like,

1753
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:16,479
it's put a filter on the relationship.

1754
01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:19,079
Speaker 3: Yep, because I could no longer.

1755
01:27:19,159 --> 01:27:23,720
Speaker 2: I realized that by the thing you said, you were

1756
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:26,479
showing a lack of openness to understanding that what you're

1757
01:27:26,479 --> 01:27:27,119
doing is hurting me.

1758
01:27:27,199 --> 01:27:29,520
Speaker 1: And also, repair work is very vulnerable, like with the

1759
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:32,079
person that is sharing that with the other person. So

1760
01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:35,039
with this situation where I'm not sure where Selene's at,

1761
01:27:35,079 --> 01:27:40,039
I would first want to assess that Selene can tolerate

1762
01:27:40,119 --> 01:27:44,359
and be encouraging to Ruemy's openness. Because the idea of

1763
01:27:44,359 --> 01:27:46,399
doing this and why you put yourself through something like

1764
01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:48,760
repair work, is because there's a reward on the other side,

1765
01:27:48,760 --> 01:27:49,960
which is our relationship.

1766
01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:53,840
Speaker 2: Correct, But the relationship has to be real, because people

1767
01:27:53,880 --> 01:27:55,680
will not suffer for no reason.

1768
01:27:56,239 --> 01:27:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so both parties have to be committed to

1769
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:02,720
this idea and they have to be able to tolerate it.

1770
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:05,119
I would have to make sure that Selene is ready

1771
01:28:05,199 --> 01:28:09,680
to hear whatever Roomy says, and that she's probably needs

1772
01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:12,199
to do her own work to be flexible enough in

1773
01:28:12,239 --> 01:28:15,319
her own thinking to not push back on what room

1774
01:28:15,319 --> 01:28:17,199
we might say, you know, because it would be like

1775
01:28:17,359 --> 01:28:21,039
all the messages you sent me about demons growing up

1776
01:28:21,359 --> 01:28:23,039
that made me feel like this, that and the other.

1777
01:28:23,479 --> 01:28:26,680
What I need from now on is to be more accepting,

1778
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:29,399
to embrace this part of me. Part of what I'm

1779
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:32,079
assessing is how likely is the person going to be

1780
01:28:32,319 --> 01:28:35,319
cool about that ask? Because I don't want to put

1781
01:28:35,359 --> 01:28:37,680
someone like Rooming in a position where they're being so

1782
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:41,439
vulnerable and asking something like this, so like sincerely to

1783
01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:42,840
this love one, and for the loved one to be

1784
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:45,880
like absolutely fucking not, you know, I mean that might

1785
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:49,319
happen no matter what, yep, but you do try to Like.

1786
01:28:49,359 --> 01:28:52,439
Repair work is something I would do, like many sessions

1787
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:56,920
into working with someone working with a relationship because it

1788
01:28:56,960 --> 01:28:59,960
is such a vulnerable thing. It requires them trusting me

1789
01:29:00,199 --> 01:29:02,920
to and I'm asking them to do something that has

1790
01:29:03,039 --> 01:29:05,960
value and not is not just a torture exercise for them.

1791
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:09,079
Speaker 2: Both right, right, And it's it's vital that understanding getting

1792
01:29:09,119 --> 01:29:12,720
into a repair session that the shitty things are going

1793
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:14,159
to be sett you need to weather them.

1794
01:29:14,520 --> 01:29:16,920
Speaker 1: You're gonna you're about to get you're in the hot seat. Yep,

1795
01:29:17,319 --> 01:29:18,560
you gotta fucking take it.

1796
01:29:18,840 --> 01:29:21,479
Speaker 2: And the one thing you can't do is say the

1797
01:29:21,520 --> 01:29:24,800
one fucking thing you know you can't say. So many

1798
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:28,119
times this process gets blown up, just like Selene fucked

1799
01:29:28,159 --> 01:29:31,640
it up by saying the one thing you know you

1800
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:33,760
can't say, or you don't know you can't say and

1801
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:35,920
haven't refused to learn, can't do that one.

1802
01:29:35,960 --> 01:29:37,600
Speaker 3: We just need to cover you back up.

1803
01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:42,279
Speaker 1: Oh nope, or even just I'm sorry you felt that way,

1804
01:29:42,399 --> 01:29:44,960
or you don't understand ye.

1805
01:29:45,199 --> 01:29:47,359
Speaker 2: All those things are things that like you get that

1806
01:29:47,399 --> 01:29:50,239
look where somebody like chucks their offer lip onto their

1807
01:29:50,239 --> 01:29:51,239
lower lip and looked well.

1808
01:29:51,239 --> 01:29:53,720
Speaker 1: Well. Also, what I would want to do to give

1809
01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:57,439
Selene some agency and because obviously if you're doing family therapy,

1810
01:29:57,439 --> 01:29:59,840
you want both people to feel like they have space. Yes,

1811
01:30:00,560 --> 01:30:03,199
is I think it also could be helpful to kind

1812
01:30:03,199 --> 01:30:07,760
of process altogether and where Selene's coming from, not in

1813
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:11,159
the sense of like validating the rigid messages that are

1814
01:30:11,239 --> 01:30:14,279
hurting roomy, but more like kind of what we've been

1815
01:30:14,279 --> 01:30:16,279
talking about, which is coming to an understanding of like

1816
01:30:16,359 --> 01:30:19,000
where why did Selene feel like she had to have

1817
01:30:19,039 --> 01:30:23,039
such rigid beliefs and in a way to hopefully make

1818
01:30:23,119 --> 01:30:26,000
someone like Roomly understand that it's not about you actually

1819
01:30:26,039 --> 01:30:29,199
like that. Selene has her own stuff that spilled onto

1820
01:30:29,239 --> 01:30:32,119
you right as her child.

1821
01:30:32,199 --> 01:30:35,640
Speaker 2: Which she was able to do with Genu connecting to

1822
01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:39,239
that empathy. But she will likely struggle to connect to

1823
01:30:39,279 --> 01:30:41,920
that for Selene, and that will require this repair work.

1824
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:45,840
Speaker 1: It would probably have to involve Yeah, like the repair

1825
01:30:45,880 --> 01:30:50,199
work allows Selene to also demonstrate change. I do repair work,

1826
01:30:50,239 --> 01:30:54,159
you're also giving someone the opportunity to hear concretely what

1827
01:30:54,199 --> 01:30:57,000
the other person needs and to give that to them

1828
01:30:57,039 --> 01:30:58,520
in a way. It's like a like you know, a

1829
01:30:58,960 --> 01:31:02,119
what's the word I'm looking for? Like an alive branch

1830
01:31:02,359 --> 01:31:04,520
Like Also it's like, here's an olive branch, like I

1831
01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:07,760
recognize and I and I want to meet you where

1832
01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:09,479
you're at. I want to give you what you're saying

1833
01:31:09,479 --> 01:31:12,000
you need. I want to repair and I'm willing to

1834
01:31:12,039 --> 01:31:13,840
do that. I'm going to suck up. I'm going to

1835
01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:15,359
take what you're telling me. I'm going to suck it

1836
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:17,640
up and just say I hear you, I understand, even

1837
01:31:17,680 --> 01:31:20,439
if I don't quite understand, and then I'm going to

1838
01:31:21,359 --> 01:31:23,920
accept what you're telling me you need and then that

1839
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:26,800
can give enough goodwill that there might be wiggle room

1840
01:31:27,560 --> 01:31:30,720
to then talk through like Selene, can you help us

1841
01:31:30,760 --> 01:31:33,119
understand where you were coming from? And not like I said,

1842
01:31:33,159 --> 01:31:35,079
not in a way to like like if this was

1843
01:31:35,119 --> 01:31:39,039
more of like a gay client and a parent who

1844
01:31:39,359 --> 01:31:42,520
is from a you know, a non gay accepting culture,

1845
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:46,640
me saying this wouldn't be now explain why gay people

1846
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:49,239
are bad or why you think that. It would be

1847
01:31:49,239 --> 01:31:51,680
more like, can you help us understand where you got

1848
01:31:51,680 --> 01:31:54,560
this belief from and why this belief also important for

1849
01:31:54,640 --> 01:31:58,279
you to hold on to to get some understanding where

1850
01:31:58,279 --> 01:31:59,800
she's coming from, like I said, And also it can

1851
01:31:59,840 --> 01:32:04,000
help hopefully helprew me feel less like it's about me, well,

1852
01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:06,680
my parent and their stuff that they got that they

1853
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:07,560
passed down.

1854
01:32:07,399 --> 01:32:10,760
Speaker 2: To me yep, and society then the pressure of being

1855
01:32:10,800 --> 01:32:13,199
hunters and all of these things that we're a really

1856
01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:18,119
small population of people within a population of people, so

1857
01:32:18,199 --> 01:32:21,359
the ability for us to be understood is quite tiny.

1858
01:32:21,479 --> 01:32:24,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then also as a therapist is a time

1859
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:26,399
when you can give psychoed too of like this is

1860
01:32:26,439 --> 01:32:27,720
why people do the things they do, Like all this

1861
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:29,920
stuff we've been talking about so far, so I would

1862
01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:32,439
want to do family therapy with them. They're going to

1863
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:34,640
need it if they're going to have a positive relationship.

1864
01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:38,880
It's very contingent upon how Salne reacts to the end

1865
01:32:38,920 --> 01:32:41,000
of this movie, which.

1866
01:32:41,079 --> 01:32:43,880
Speaker 2: If I'm going to put on my hat of writer,

1867
01:32:44,279 --> 01:32:46,640
it seems like the story left to tell is the

1868
01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:47,359
backwards one.

1869
01:32:47,439 --> 01:32:49,199
Speaker 1: It's very open ended that part.

1870
01:32:49,359 --> 01:32:51,800
Speaker 2: And I think what we're describing would make for a

1871
01:32:51,880 --> 01:32:56,520
compelling and natural building point to have a story that

1872
01:32:56,600 --> 01:33:00,520
kind of shows the repair work between them, yeah, also

1873
01:33:01,039 --> 01:33:03,319
tells us the story we don't know, which is what

1874
01:33:03,359 --> 01:33:06,359
happened before exactly, And I think that would be a

1875
01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:09,920
powerful storytelling arc, and I hope that's what they do

1876
01:33:10,399 --> 01:33:12,760
for me. I think I'm going to build on a

1877
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:15,239
similar idea. I don't think I think there's more than

1878
01:33:15,279 --> 01:33:18,159
one family here. And having done a lot of work

1879
01:33:18,760 --> 01:33:22,640
like this with teams of police officers in my case,

1880
01:33:23,079 --> 01:33:29,119
particularly people who do more risky undercover or swat or

1881
01:33:29,159 --> 01:33:30,880
that kind of stuff. I've had clients that do all

1882
01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:36,279
kinds of these really niche things that require trust and

1883
01:33:36,560 --> 01:33:38,560
putting yourself out there a lot of risk and things

1884
01:33:38,600 --> 01:33:41,600
like that, and when something happens that damages the trust

1885
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:45,399
in that team or a response. It's vitally important that

1886
01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:48,279
the team gets a chance to process that as a whole.

1887
01:33:48,359 --> 01:33:52,239
A person who's stuck individually may need more work, but

1888
01:33:52,359 --> 01:33:54,520
if you don't process it as a team and handle

1889
01:33:54,600 --> 01:33:57,000
that thing, they won't get very far in the individual

1890
01:33:57,000 --> 01:33:59,520
work and will probably leave the team. And I think

1891
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:04,239
for are lovely K pop demon hunters, for them to

1892
01:34:04,680 --> 01:34:09,159
stay hun tricks and not have Roomy goll Beyonce on

1893
01:34:09,239 --> 01:34:12,520
them is I think we'd need to see the three

1894
01:34:12,560 --> 01:34:16,399
of them do very similar repair work, but also processing.

1895
01:34:17,199 --> 01:34:20,560
There need to be a lot of processing what happened

1896
01:34:21,119 --> 01:34:24,399
during the time when they were apart together, because Mira

1897
01:34:24,479 --> 01:34:28,600
and Zoe don't have any idea of what actually went

1898
01:34:28,680 --> 01:34:31,720
on for Roomy all those years, and they will need

1899
01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:34,000
to hear that to form empathy for her and understanding

1900
01:34:34,159 --> 01:34:35,880
how did you get to the point where you betray us?

1901
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:39,199
We're like literally trapesing the world in private planes and

1902
01:34:39,239 --> 01:34:42,880
like so intimateously close, but yet you still wall us

1903
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:43,159
off and.

1904
01:34:43,199 --> 01:34:47,119
Speaker 1: We knew it. Han knew it. The fucking scammy guy

1905
01:34:47,279 --> 01:34:47,680
knew it.

1906
01:34:48,119 --> 01:34:50,039
Speaker 2: Because I mean, their grifters are good at that of

1907
01:34:50,039 --> 01:34:53,800
being people readers, but man, everybody who knows you knows

1908
01:34:54,199 --> 01:34:54,640
you're not.

1909
01:34:54,720 --> 01:34:58,600
Speaker 1: You're walling us off. And also to not create a

1910
01:34:58,680 --> 01:35:01,920
pattern then where they're all second guessing her, you know,

1911
01:35:02,000 --> 01:35:03,520
like this is going to leave a mark.

1912
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:08,199
Speaker 2: Correct, However, there being a reason for that, an explanation

1913
01:35:08,279 --> 01:35:11,840
and ability for them to connect to her story, her

1914
01:35:11,880 --> 01:35:16,119
experience and demonstrate empathy will vastly decrease the time it

1915
01:35:16,159 --> 01:35:19,319
takes to heal from that. But she is also going

1916
01:35:19,399 --> 01:35:23,119
to at the same time need to hear why it

1917
01:35:23,239 --> 01:35:24,560
hurt them so bad.

1918
01:35:25,239 --> 01:35:28,840
Speaker 1: That's true too, there's consequences for yep. Is that even

1919
01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:31,359
if you made these choices or kept these secrets of

1920
01:35:31,439 --> 01:35:34,520
very understandable reasons, other people are allowed to have their

1921
01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:39,319
own feelings about how your actions also impacted them.

1922
01:35:39,680 --> 01:35:43,359
Speaker 2: And that's the top mistake people make when trying to

1923
01:35:43,359 --> 01:35:46,359
get through these discussions is that no, I told you why,

1924
01:35:46,439 --> 01:35:47,479
so it should be fine.

1925
01:35:47,279 --> 01:35:50,520
Speaker 1: Now, Like I want one hundred percent blanket validation forgiveness

1926
01:35:50,560 --> 01:35:52,680
because I was hurting when I did that thing.

1927
01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:57,000
Speaker 3: Right, and I see it with couples all the time.

1928
01:35:57,119 --> 01:35:59,199
Speaker 1: Well, and then then that becomes like who's got hurt

1929
01:35:59,239 --> 01:36:02,239
the worst? Olympics correct receipts.

1930
01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:06,920
Speaker 2: Move's the most right, and then we're layering each other

1931
01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:11,239
and it goes poor Lee because it takes recognition that

1932
01:36:11,479 --> 01:36:15,159
everybody got hurt by this and everybody wants the same things,

1933
01:36:15,199 --> 01:36:17,520
which is to be heard, to feel safe, and to

1934
01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:19,199
feel like whatever happened doesn't happen again.

1935
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:22,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's a lot of repair work. Yeah, that

1936
01:36:22,199 --> 01:36:24,159
Roomy will have to do with them, Like they might

1937
01:36:24,239 --> 01:36:27,279
need over the top transparency.

1938
01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:28,880
Speaker 2: For a while, they might, but what they're going to

1939
01:36:28,960 --> 01:36:32,159
need before that is for Roumy to witness their pain

1940
01:36:32,239 --> 01:36:36,960
and what those little scepters Guima was using to the

1941
01:36:36,960 --> 01:36:40,119
little fan things, Yeah, the little fan light things or whatever.

1942
01:36:40,239 --> 01:36:41,800
Speaker 1: Only a word for it that we don't know because

1943
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:44,399
we don't listen to K pop music, the word like wands.

1944
01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure it's clearly a whole thing. Yeah, as

1945
01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:50,000
I'm not a K pop fan. And they felt weak

1946
01:36:50,239 --> 01:36:55,039
and vulnerable when they're used to throwing daggers and swinging

1947
01:36:55,119 --> 01:36:58,520
glaves at these things and fighting as a trio that

1948
01:36:58,600 --> 01:37:00,159
can take on anything and all of a sudd and

1949
01:37:00,159 --> 01:37:00,800
they're vulnerable.

1950
01:37:00,840 --> 01:37:03,159
Speaker 3: That's going to be a wound that takes all while

1951
01:37:03,640 --> 01:37:04,119
to heal.

1952
01:37:04,279 --> 01:37:07,960
Speaker 1: That's very healthy for Roomy too, because you don't want

1953
01:37:08,039 --> 01:37:11,399
to create this inverse situation where she can only feel

1954
01:37:11,399 --> 01:37:14,800
good if everyone is like super nice and accepting of her. Yep,

1955
01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:18,560
that she also has to get comfortable or more be

1956
01:37:18,760 --> 01:37:21,359
able to tolerate the discomfort of people can be mad

1957
01:37:21,359 --> 01:37:23,399
at you and still love you. They can. You can

1958
01:37:23,399 --> 01:37:26,000
be fighting with people and still love each other. You can,

1959
01:37:26,520 --> 01:37:28,039
and it doesn't have to be this all or nothing

1960
01:37:28,079 --> 01:37:30,520
thing in either direction. So it's good for people like

1961
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:34,119
Roomy to also sit in the discomfort of people being

1962
01:37:34,199 --> 01:37:36,520
upset with them and hearing that out.

1963
01:37:37,439 --> 01:37:37,920
Speaker 3: It does.

1964
01:37:38,119 --> 01:37:40,760
Speaker 2: And I think the one last thing I want to

1965
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:43,279
add to this is because they are a functional team

1966
01:37:43,439 --> 01:37:45,600
that actually deals with real danger.

1967
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:47,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, they have to really trust each other.

1968
01:37:47,960 --> 01:37:51,039
Speaker 2: They are going to need not only they're interpersonal, but

1969
01:37:51,119 --> 01:37:55,039
they're professional. It's their physical side. I guess the way

1970
01:37:55,039 --> 01:37:57,640
I want to put it reassured. Because they went through

1971
01:37:57,680 --> 01:38:01,199
some fights where one of them fucked off, Yeah what rogue,

1972
01:38:01,439 --> 01:38:04,800
and all of a sudden, they weren't functioning all three together,

1973
01:38:04,920 --> 01:38:07,600
kind of knowing each other's moves. They were roomies off

1974
01:38:07,600 --> 01:38:10,640
by yourself, and you can see Mira and Zobe getting

1975
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:12,079
overwhelmed when they're in the bathhouse.

1976
01:38:12,239 --> 01:38:15,039
Speaker 3: Oh mh, they're like, roomy, where are you? We need you.

1977
01:38:15,600 --> 01:38:17,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're going to need to.

1978
01:38:17,079 --> 01:38:19,960
Speaker 2: Work through those moments of kind of like scuba divers

1979
01:38:20,000 --> 01:38:21,920
have to take their mask off and have somebody else

1980
01:38:21,920 --> 01:38:25,119
give them air to pass their tests because shit happens,

1981
01:38:25,159 --> 01:38:29,760
and you need to have training to train through those moments.

1982
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:31,439
And they're going to need to work through building trust

1983
01:38:31,439 --> 01:38:35,159
with each other again in a functional, stressed space. And

1984
01:38:35,199 --> 01:38:37,000
you have to do that with sports teams, you have

1985
01:38:37,079 --> 01:38:39,800
to do that with tactical environments, you have to do

1986
01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:42,279
that with medical environments. People that are under stressed like

1987
01:38:42,319 --> 01:38:45,199
that need to be able to repair and refunction and

1988
01:38:45,239 --> 01:38:47,960
they're going to need some training to address that.

1989
01:38:48,079 --> 01:38:49,279
Speaker 1: I guess kinetic.

1990
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:53,199
Speaker 2: Side, kisthetic learning side for sure said that's all I

1991
01:38:53,239 --> 01:38:53,680
have on that.

1992
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:56,359
Speaker 1: I think it kind of covers it all. Right, let's

1993
01:38:56,399 --> 01:38:59,000
take our last break care and be back with final thoughts.

1994
01:38:59,119 --> 01:39:01,560
So I go first, and because just because in our

1995
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:04,439
tradition where the people who like it the most tend

1996
01:39:04,439 --> 01:39:06,000
to go last. If people haven't picked up on that

1997
01:39:06,039 --> 01:39:10,079
with final thoughts, so I this movie is fun, it's cute.

1998
01:39:10,479 --> 01:39:12,800
I'm not a parent. I'm a child free by choice,

1999
01:39:13,359 --> 01:39:15,399
and so I don't think it's a movie I would

2000
01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:19,159
have watched necessarily if it wasn't for the podcast, and

2001
01:39:19,319 --> 01:39:20,640
it was a cute movie to watch. I don't know

2002
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:22,840
if I'll watch it again unless there's like a child

2003
01:39:22,880 --> 01:39:25,079
in my life who wants to watch it. But I

2004
01:39:25,079 --> 01:39:27,039
don't have any. I would say my feelings on it

2005
01:39:27,079 --> 01:39:29,439
are very neutral. I like all the stuff we've talked

2006
01:39:29,479 --> 01:39:31,479
about today. I think it's a great movie for kids

2007
01:39:31,479 --> 01:39:34,560
to have. I like the message. I think it's visually

2008
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:37,000
very beautiful. Even that alone, I can see why people

2009
01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:40,119
are gravitating towards it. Like even the thumbnail on Netflix

2010
01:39:40,199 --> 01:39:44,560
is very like, hey watch me. So I've just seen

2011
01:39:44,600 --> 01:39:47,359
the name a lot, and I like that they include

2012
01:39:47,359 --> 01:39:49,279
so much Korean, and like the dialogue, not just in

2013
01:39:49,319 --> 01:39:51,399
the songs, but also in how they talk to each other.

2014
01:39:51,560 --> 01:39:53,399
I like that that's a nice little like we're not

2015
01:39:53,479 --> 01:39:57,840
totally centering Western American English in this story, like we're

2016
01:39:57,840 --> 01:40:00,680
gonna include like the I guess the Korean version of

2017
01:40:00,680 --> 01:40:04,399
Spanglish into the situation. And I like how much the

2018
01:40:04,479 --> 01:40:07,159
girls eat, you know, given how active they are. I

2019
01:40:07,239 --> 01:40:10,920
think that's how they're introduced. They are very skinny still, Yeah,

2020
01:40:11,119 --> 01:40:13,800
but I can accept that because they're so active as

2021
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:18,600
both like dancers, performers and demon hunterrews that. But I

2022
01:40:18,600 --> 01:40:21,159
do like to the acknowledge that they carbo load and

2023
01:40:21,399 --> 01:40:23,079
eat all this stuff as a response to that, because

2024
01:40:23,079 --> 01:40:25,880
they probably be hella hungry after all that work they do. Yep,

2025
01:40:26,279 --> 01:40:29,359
And like I said, my favorite song is though what

2026
01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:31,520
it sounds like song, I feel like it's very catchy.

2027
01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:33,840
I don't know if I'll listen to a lot of

2028
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:36,319
the music though in my free time, But I also

2029
01:40:36,319 --> 01:40:37,680
don't listen to a lot of K pop, Like I

2030
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:40,960
could definitely hear like the influence of the K pop

2031
01:40:41,000 --> 01:40:44,079
I am familiar with, like in osmosis, like BTS songs

2032
01:40:44,119 --> 01:40:47,199
and Catie songs and stuff like that. It's not quite

2033
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:50,560
my genre, so I don't know if I'll visit it

2034
01:40:50,960 --> 01:40:54,159
in my life outside of the podcast. But like I said,

2035
01:40:54,159 --> 01:40:56,399
like I don't really have any problems with this movie.

2036
01:40:56,479 --> 01:40:59,000
I just don't think I would seek it out on

2037
01:40:59,039 --> 01:41:02,079
my own volition, but not because it's a bad movie,

2038
01:41:02,520 --> 01:41:04,600
just because it's not a movie for like my age,

2039
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:08,239
demographic or my personal preferences and Like I said before,

2040
01:41:08,239 --> 01:41:11,239
I would have liked more backstory on the roommate parents situation.

2041
01:41:11,520 --> 01:41:14,000
Maybe I will watch whatever sequel comes out after this

2042
01:41:14,159 --> 01:41:16,760
to just see what happens. Maybe I'll read the Wikipedia page,

2043
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:18,920
but I'll give the movie a look. And I would

2044
01:41:18,920 --> 01:41:21,760
say my favorite part actually was the big tiger with

2045
01:41:21,800 --> 01:41:24,560
the little hat, Derby Tiger Bird. That did crack me out.

2046
01:41:24,600 --> 01:41:27,319
Derby Bird. Yeah, when he was like going down, I

2047
01:41:27,319 --> 01:41:29,399
had to knock things over and then couldn't stop like

2048
01:41:29,399 --> 01:41:31,560
a big cat. That was very funny and that did

2049
01:41:31,560 --> 01:41:34,399
make me laugh a lot. That and when the idea

2050
01:41:34,399 --> 01:41:36,279
of the songa boys are being introduced and they do

2051
01:41:36,439 --> 01:41:38,680
the whole like the swishy hair thing and like ummu

2052
01:41:39,239 --> 01:41:41,279
Like that was very funny too. I was like, oh,

2053
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:42,279
got them.

2054
01:41:42,319 --> 01:41:45,800
Speaker 3: So the girl's eyes like popping corn. That was hilarious.

2055
01:41:46,039 --> 01:41:48,000
Speaker 1: And I will say, if I had to like put

2056
01:41:48,039 --> 01:41:50,319
this movie against a lot of Disney movies or like

2057
01:41:50,359 --> 01:41:54,239
Disney Channel movies, I can see why parents love this movie. Oh,

2058
01:41:54,239 --> 01:41:56,840
because this is far and above those movies like a

2059
01:41:56,840 --> 01:41:59,600
Breath of fresh Air, and I don't have to watch

2060
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:02,039
any of those kind of movies in my personal life,

2061
01:42:02,079 --> 01:42:03,439
so I think that's also why I'm a bit of

2062
01:42:03,439 --> 01:42:08,199
a skewed perspective and I've really like not encountered the

2063
01:42:08,199 --> 01:42:10,600
phenomenon you're experiencing, ben Like, not even in like I'm

2064
01:42:10,640 --> 01:42:12,319
not saying this in like an edge lord way, like

2065
01:42:12,359 --> 01:42:15,079
I'm so cool, I don't know anything about this. But really,

2066
01:42:15,520 --> 01:42:17,359
what you've told me about how pervasive it is in

2067
01:42:17,399 --> 01:42:20,880
your life, I think is such a telling difference between

2068
01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:23,039
having kids and not having kids, and being around people

2069
01:42:23,039 --> 01:42:25,000
that have kids versus being around people that don't have kids,

2070
01:42:25,000 --> 01:42:27,079
Like I don't have any friends really with kids besides you,

2071
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:29,840
And so if I didn't hear this from you, I

2072
01:42:29,840 --> 01:42:32,840
wouldn't have realized how pervasive this movie is.

2073
01:42:33,159 --> 01:42:35,239
Speaker 2: Oh got so parents are all talking about how much

2074
01:42:35,239 --> 01:42:38,920
their kids love it and it's wait till Halloween.

2075
01:42:39,239 --> 01:42:42,399
Speaker 1: Oh for sure. So those are my final thoughts, Benjamin,

2076
01:42:43,039 --> 01:42:45,079
I feel like we've heard yours kind of, but go ahead.

2077
01:42:45,439 --> 01:42:49,560
Speaker 2: So my final thoughts are, I love this movie.

2078
01:42:49,640 --> 01:42:51,239
Speaker 1: I think it's fine.

2079
01:42:51,279 --> 01:42:54,439
Speaker 2: I get is it the best most amazing film that's

2080
01:42:54,439 --> 01:42:55,199
ever existed?

2081
01:42:55,520 --> 01:42:55,600
Speaker 1: No?

2082
01:42:57,319 --> 01:42:59,399
Speaker 3: Does anything mind blowing happen in it?

2083
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:00,079
Speaker 1: No?

2084
01:43:00,239 --> 01:43:03,199
Speaker 2: But what I think is perfect about the way it

2085
01:43:03,279 --> 01:43:06,199
hit and when it hit? Is it hit? All of

2086
01:43:06,279 --> 01:43:09,560
us at a time where I think we needed something simpler,

2087
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:11,399
and I think this movie hit at a time where

2088
01:43:11,520 --> 01:43:16,039
everything else is so fucking complicated and we're watching what

2089
01:43:16,159 --> 01:43:17,840
feels like the world going to shit. I was just

2090
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:21,239
reading articles about that kind of how millennials in particular

2091
01:43:21,439 --> 01:43:23,600
are struggling to be motivated at work as well as

2092
01:43:23,640 --> 01:43:26,920
these where the one thing that exers had that we

2093
01:43:27,000 --> 01:43:29,520
don't is hope that hard work will go somewhere, it'll matter.

2094
01:43:30,000 --> 01:43:32,239
Speaker 1: There's a lot of nihilism out there right now.

2095
01:43:32,399 --> 01:43:33,479
Speaker 3: Well it's earned.

2096
01:43:33,840 --> 01:43:35,680
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean understand, I'm not making fun of that,

2097
01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:37,920
Like I there is it, just there is.

2098
01:43:38,079 --> 01:43:41,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's this movie kind of creates some hope

2099
01:43:41,520 --> 01:43:44,439
and recognition that. At least what it did for me

2100
01:43:44,560 --> 01:43:46,479
is looking at it and being reminded that, you know,

2101
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:49,800
when generations take on the world in their own way

2102
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:52,479
from the perspective of what their problems actually are, not

2103
01:43:52,960 --> 01:43:55,319
trying to fit it into the narrative what they're told

2104
01:43:55,359 --> 01:43:58,760
problems are and how you solve them, but by approaching

2105
01:43:58,800 --> 01:44:02,399
them with that natural flexibility and recognition of like, yeah,

2106
01:44:02,439 --> 01:44:04,159
that's nice that we know that, but this is what's

2107
01:44:04,159 --> 01:44:07,680
actually happening, and even when it was an Army rotc

2108
01:44:07,840 --> 01:44:10,560
in college for a couple of years. Well, it's considering

2109
01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:12,720
that path of life. One of the things in the

2110
01:44:12,880 --> 01:44:17,039
Army Field Training Manual is literally a message from Colin

2111
01:44:17,119 --> 01:44:20,720
Powell or Normous Swartzkoff, one of those two who are

2112
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:25,960
generals in Desert Storm is no battle plan survives contact

2113
01:44:26,039 --> 01:44:29,000
with the enemy. Powerful fucking statement understanding that the world

2114
01:44:29,039 --> 01:44:32,000
is whatever is gonna happen is gonna happen, and you

2115
01:44:32,039 --> 01:44:33,840
have to adjust to it, and you can't defeat it

2116
01:44:33,880 --> 01:44:36,159
by confining it to a simple narrative.

2117
01:44:37,000 --> 01:44:39,000
Speaker 3: Well it's this, so you do this. That shit doesn't work,

2118
01:44:39,079 --> 01:44:39,680
It never has.

2119
01:44:40,359 --> 01:44:44,479
Speaker 2: But looking at something so simple, so pure, so full

2120
01:44:44,520 --> 01:44:48,079
of like a simple clean message that you can encounter

2121
01:44:48,199 --> 01:44:51,279
a bad thing and you can not only band together

2122
01:44:51,359 --> 01:44:53,720
but be seen for who you are and have that

2123
01:44:54,159 --> 01:44:56,239
be the actual thing that beats it. Not what somebody

2124
01:44:56,279 --> 01:44:58,239
else says you're supposed to be, but who you are

2125
01:44:58,760 --> 01:45:01,359
be enough is of very powerful message.

2126
01:45:01,399 --> 01:45:02,239
Speaker 1: Right about now.

2127
01:45:02,680 --> 01:45:05,319
Speaker 2: The fact that the songs are catchy as shit, and

2128
01:45:05,359 --> 01:45:08,199
that they are bangers, and that they keep getting covered

2129
01:45:08,199 --> 01:45:11,279
and redone and people are just really attaching to this

2130
01:45:11,640 --> 01:45:14,359
and each one means something a little bit different to

2131
01:45:14,399 --> 01:45:17,680
people because in addition to being K pop, they worked

2132
01:45:17,720 --> 01:45:21,159
in a bunch of different genres to stuff to appeal

2133
01:45:21,279 --> 01:45:23,720
to a larger audience and kind of convey the message

2134
01:45:23,800 --> 01:45:27,680
like be your idol. There's a significant component of metal

2135
01:45:27,720 --> 01:45:31,960
to that, so it appeals to me. Where some are

2136
01:45:32,000 --> 01:45:35,840
like bubblegum pop and some are more rap focused, and

2137
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:38,760
some are more like fight songs and others are more vulnerable.

2138
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:41,920
It just it covers a full emotional gamut of being

2139
01:45:41,920 --> 01:45:44,880
a real fucking person and how to use that in

2140
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:47,079
your way to defeat evil.

2141
01:45:47,239 --> 01:45:49,000
Speaker 3: And I think all of us are feeling.

2142
01:45:48,760 --> 01:45:50,239
Speaker 2: A little bit like we'd like eeple to be a

2143
01:45:50,239 --> 01:45:52,199
bit defeated more than it is right now.

2144
01:45:53,399 --> 01:45:57,239
Speaker 1: My approach is more almost like spiteful optimism, like you're

2145
01:45:57,239 --> 01:45:59,319
not gonna kill my heart. That's my approach to the

2146
01:45:59,399 --> 01:46:02,640
nihilism of world well, or how scary things feel right now,

2147
01:46:03,079 --> 01:46:05,399
is you're not going to kill my heart. That would

2148
01:46:05,399 --> 01:46:07,439
be a good title for a K pop song, could

2149
01:46:07,479 --> 01:46:10,520
be a good title fo metal song. Maybe I'll write

2150
01:46:10,560 --> 01:46:11,199
it anyway.

2151
01:46:11,479 --> 01:46:14,640
Speaker 2: I think I am thrilled with the way that this

2152
01:46:14,800 --> 01:46:17,000
is perming culture and creating hope, and I hope it

2153
01:46:17,000 --> 01:46:20,039
becomes a vehicle for more because I think we need

2154
01:46:20,079 --> 01:46:21,319
it and we all need to find a little bit

2155
01:46:21,319 --> 01:46:23,239
of fight for the darkness and break some light to it.

2156
01:46:23,279 --> 01:46:26,199
Speaker 1: Well, on that note, we will wrap up here. As always,

2157
01:46:26,239 --> 01:46:30,560
you can find us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook at pop

2158
01:46:30,560 --> 01:46:33,039
porn Psychology. You can always email us at pop porn

2159
01:46:33,039 --> 01:46:36,720
psychologygmail dot com. And if you would like to support

2160
01:46:36,800 --> 01:46:39,079
us with a little bit of money, you can join

2161
01:46:39,239 --> 01:46:41,680
our Patreon. You can be a patron there. You get

2162
01:46:41,760 --> 01:46:45,319
early unedited access to episodes. You also if you are

2163
01:46:45,479 --> 01:46:48,159
a fifty dollars five hundred. If you are a fifty

2164
01:46:48,159 --> 01:46:51,800
dollars or more patron, you can even choose the movie

2165
01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:53,760
that we talk about for an episode. If you would

2166
01:46:53,760 --> 01:46:56,600
like to support us for no money, you can leave

2167
01:46:56,680 --> 01:46:58,920
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2168
01:46:58,960 --> 01:47:02,279
actually the best way for us to reach new listeners,

2169
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:04,920
and we read your reviews and we really appreciate the

2170
01:47:04,920 --> 01:47:07,880
ones that we get, so thank you all and have

2171
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:08,560
fun out there.