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Speaker 1: How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy?

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Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You

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shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, we'll get

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you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign

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up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hi,

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this is Carl Franklin.

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Speaker 2: And this is Richard Campbell.

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Speaker 1: We've got two special shows coming up soon, episode nineteen

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ninety nine and two thousand.

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Speaker 2: For episode nineteen ninety nine, we're collecting people's y two

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k stories what did you do to help the Y

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two k event not actually happen?

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Speaker 1: And for episode two thousand, we're going to be sharing

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stories about how dot net shaped your career.

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Speaker 2: We have a special page at dot netroocks dot com

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slash voxpop where you can record messages for us that

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we can play on these special episodes.

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Speaker 1: So tell us what you did for Y two k.

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Speaker 2: And what dot net means to you, and of.

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Speaker 1: Course how long you've been listening to dot net rocks.

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Speaker 2: So go to dot netroocks dot com slash vox pop

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now and leave us a message before the thought of

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operates like whiskey left in a glass overnight.

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Speaker 1: Do it? Hey, welcome back to dot net Rocks. I'm

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Carl Franklin, an amateur Campbell. Brady Gaster is with us again.

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He's been here, well, he was here last year in November.

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But we got some really cool stuff to talk about.

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But first, Richard, Yeah, buddy, this being episode nineteen hundred

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and ninety four, let's talk about what happened that year.

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M H and Brady feel free to jump in during

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this whole debacle here.

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Speaker 3: If you remember ninety four, I bet you do.

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Speaker 1: I do remember ninety four. Yeah, I was living in

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New York with my then girlfriend who I was to.

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Oh no, I guess we were married by then. Oh

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but anyway, I do remember Nelson Mandela being sworn in

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as South Africa's first black president. I remember the NAFTA

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North American Free Trade Agreement took effect, kicking in in

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the chunnel winking, the UK and France officially opened the

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Channel Tunnel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, amazing piece of work, wildly over budget and over time,

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but you know it's nice that it's still functional this day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. Some really bad things happened, of course,

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the genocide in Rwanda, bad, bad, bad, Yeah, the Northridge

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earthquake in California, but some other stuff. Ol O J.

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Simpson was arrested after a televised.

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Speaker 3: Yeah the White Bronco.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Fore Tanya Harding was banned for life following the

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attack on Nancy Kerrigan Baseball Strike, things like that.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Some TV shows, The sitcom Friends premiered a couple of

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Conic films, Forrest Gump, The Shawshank Redemption one of my.

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Speaker 3: Favorite stories ever, great film.

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Speaker 1: And The Lion King. And of course, Nirvana frontman Kurt

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Cobain died by suicide that year. Yeah twenty seven, Yeah, Hey,

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I might as well get the top ten albums of

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nineteen ninety four out of the way. Sure, Sound Garden,

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super Unknown, Black Hole, Sun, great song, Launch You Come.

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It's a great song. Celine Dion The Color of My

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Love had Her Hits, The Power of Love and Think Twice,

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Pearl Jam, Vitology, Better Man, Camp, Find Better Man, Spin,

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The Black Circle and Not for You, bon Jovi, Cross

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Road Always and Someday I'll Be Saturday Night where the

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hits TLC, Crazy Sexy, Cool, Creep, Red Light Special and Waterfalls,

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great songs, Boys to Men Too, singles I'll Make Love

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to You on Bended Knee and Water Runs, Dry Green Day, Dookie,

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basket Case, When I Come Around, Longview, Lion King, various artists,

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Circle of Life, Elton John, of course, Hakuna Matata, Can

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You Feel the Love Tonight? With the hits there Music

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Box by Mariah Carey, which was number one last year,

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is number two, Dream Lover, Hero and Without You were

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the hits, and number one Pink Floyd the Division Bell

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Take It Back, High Hopes, Keep Talking other hits as well,

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another stunner. Yeah, absolutely great, great album. Okay, what do

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you got for nineteen ninety four, Richard In.

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Speaker 3: On the space side, there are three flights to Mirror

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this year, which is a lot. This is now the

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Russian Federation, so they're sort of gearing things up. The

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first one, eighteen, has Valerie y Akov on it, who

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will then hold the record for the longest single trip

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into space at four hundred and thirty seven days, but

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of course that won't be until nineteen ninety six. Yeah.

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On the shuttle side there is seven missions total, two

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for Discovery, two for Columbia, two for Endeavor, and one

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for Atlantis the most interesting one. Most of them are

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just straight science missions, but this is the in February,

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the mission with Discovery has Sergei Krikalev on board. It's

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the first time a Russian will ever fly on the Shuttle.

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It's the beginning of the Shuttle Mirror program. One of

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the things they tested on this mission was direct communications

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with mir so getting the right radios, figuring out connections

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and so forth, which will be beginning over the next

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few years to culminate in actually docking a Shuttle to

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Mirror and that whole initiative. So it begins in nineteen

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ninety four.

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Speaker 1: I was back when Russia liked us. Remember that, there's

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this brief interval where, you know, so they liked us

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because we were giving them a lot of money.

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Speaker 3: We certainly were support helping support them to try and

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go into a commercial economy and you know, open things up.

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This is also when it's actually ninety three that they

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made the agreement to do the International Space Station. The

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US have been trying to come up with space station

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plan for a while, and so in nineteen ninety four

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NASA actually opens the Space Station Processing Facility to start

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building their components. While the Russians have actually got existing

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components that were going to be for Mere two that

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will be turned into the first of the International Space

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Station components. One more space mission actually is in January.

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It's one of my very favorites. Launched out of Vandenberg

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Space Space on a Titan two, the same rocket that

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they flew the Gemini missions on back in the day,

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was the Klementine mission. So what was Clementine. Clementine was

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actually a test article built by the Ballistic Missile Defense Group,

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So jump all the way back to the eighties and

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the full on Cold War and Ronald Reagan and he

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had his Strategic Defense Initiative, which diominally called star Wars,

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and in that was this idea that it would be

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this array of satellites that would monitor for any launches

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of ICBMs and then other satellites that could actually shoot

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them down. And they had great names like Brilliant Pebble. Well,

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Clementine was actually a prototype Brilliant Pebble, a small satellite

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with maneuvering systems and great sensors and so forth. And

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after they finished the test article, but the program had

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been shut down, the Blistic Defense the Initiative group basically

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said an Astley, you want this thing, and they're like sure,

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and they repurposed it into an explorer satellite and its

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mission was to hear that fly to the Moon and

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then it was going to fly on from there to

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intercept a near Earth asteroid, at which point it would

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be lost and gone forever.

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Speaker 1: I see, I see. I thought it was because of

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smell like oranges.

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Speaker 3: No, they literally backed into the acronym based on the

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fact that they were going to losing them forever. Now.

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The Clementine mission, they never made it to the asteroid.

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They did get to the Moon, and one of the

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experiments they did was bouncing radar off of the poles

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of the Moon. Even going back to the Apollo Ara,

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there's this idea that there might be ice on the Moon,

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but there was absolutely no proof, and so there was

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an attempt by Clementine doing these radar experiments actually bounced them,

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transmitting them from Clementine off the surface of the Moon

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to Aricibo. The old gigantic dish it's now gone in

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Puerto Rico, and the reflectivity that got from it was

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an indicator of hydrogen and austri There was some proof

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that there might be ice and lots of it in

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shaded craters on the poles of the moon. So that

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was sort of the first indications that came from the

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Clementine mission, and very much your swords into plowshares kind

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of took old Cold War tool and turn it into

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a science project. Now, okay, cool, that's all I got

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for space. Let's talk a little bit about computing at

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a time. Of course, the Internet is emerging rapidly. In

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nineteen nighty four is a year that the World Wide

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Web Consortium is formed, with offices in CERN and at MT,

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with Tim berners Lee heavily involved. A guy named hack

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On wim Lee proposes a thing called cascading style sheets,

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and none of us are afraid enough at the time

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to know we should stop that. Man. Oh wait, did

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I say that? I thought that's too bad. And Rasmus

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Laerdorf publishes the first specifications for PHP PHP, the acronym

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being PHP Hypertext Processor because recursive.

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Speaker 1: I thought Rory Blis's definition was good. Pretty hot programmer.

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Speaker 3: There you go a group called the Enterprise Integration Technologies

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which founds a group called commerce Net, and they do

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the first credit card transactions.

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Speaker 1: On the Internet. Yep, I remember those days.

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Speaker 3: Which causes by the middle of the year, pizza Hut

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to stand up, the first online pizza ordering service, which

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is actually the first online purchasing service of any kind.

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Speaker 1: Really. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Also the year that the Snopes website stands up to

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debunk everything everything, yes, elsewhere. In computing, MS DOS six

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point two to two is released. That will be the

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final version of m STOs NT three five we had

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three one last year and Hour up to three five

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and Windows three one one Windows for work groups. Oh,

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integration with networking, all that good stuff. IBM releases OS

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two WARP, which will be the last version of OS two.

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Intel announces a sixty four bit processor called Itanium. Yeah,

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we'll eventually known it as Titanium. And over on the

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risk side, Acorn out of the UK releases a risk

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PC using arm v three and both people who bought

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it loved it. And on the storage side, sand disk

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release is the format come back flash, which generally is

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flash memory, although there are miniature heart drives made in

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that form factor as well. And Iomega releases the zip disc.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, yes, bringing me back here. I had several of.

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Speaker 3: Them ninety megs Man ninety megs and a little camera

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company called Sony releases a video game console called PlayStation. Yeah,

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that's nineteen ninety four.

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Speaker 1: I got one, well you forgot I got one Netscape

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Navigator Escape.

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Speaker 3: Wow than Escape Navigator is not out yet. There's still

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mosaic at this point. It'll be next year.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So I was oh it says it says one.

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Oh was released in ninety four.

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Speaker 3: I think it was point oh nine.

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Speaker 5: And then Yahoo was founded, and you forgot a good album,

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the Downward Spiral, Oh boy, okay, and also music for

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the Jilted generation Prodigy fantastic one. You forgot a fantastic film,

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pulp fiction. Okay, I forget that. Oh boy, Oh he's

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forgot a great show. The one called Friends appeared that Oh.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I said friends blood friends. Oh you did, okay,

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I didn't hear friends, Yeah, I called that out. Let

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me think anything else, anything else. I want to make

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sure we got yacht one Station Doomed two, Warcraft Orcs

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and Humans is released in Final Fantasy.

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Speaker 1: There was a website that came online in nineteen ninety four.

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Maybe you've heard of it. It was called Carling Gary's VB homepage.

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Speaker 3: I visited that page, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Nineteen ninety four. It was one of the first websites

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that was, you know, for that kind of thing, and

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it was definitely the first website for Visual Basic. The

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only other things were Microsoft's MSDN website, which had, you know,

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the stuff that you would expect them to have, but

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this was the first Visual Basic website and it just

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took off like crazy. Yeah, I guess that's it. Yeah,

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all right, so let's do Better know framework roll it awesome?

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Speaker 4: All right?

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Speaker 3: What we got?

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about squad with Brady today for sure,

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and Jeff Fritz and I did an episode on Coded

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with AI episode eighteen where he went through and did

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a demo of squad. Nice. So if you want to

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see that, that's the better know framework for this for

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the show, and it'll be on the website.

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Speaker 3: Cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's this is how I fell in love with

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it and since I've been using it. We'll talk about

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that with Brady in a minute. So who's talking to us?

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Richard Harby comment off the show nineteen eighty nine. The

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one we did with Ben de Tree talking about the

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roll of AI and secure software got a lot of

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comments on the show and our friend Codepeuter himself, Richard

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Rukima said. Richard said it building with AI is not

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about writing code. The skill is context management. My approach

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is to give AI the context of the application, but

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then focus its coding effort in the architecture of the design. Yeah,

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the architecture does not minimized change blast within the layers

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of the architecture, and it's also a container that the

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AI can be limited to. This happens the I agents

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need to work together to get multiple changes done at

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the same time or within dependencies that normal work already has.

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But that's a workflow. Context sounds like managing a team,

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doesn't it. Where is that product managing a squad?

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Speaker 4: Anyway, as funny as.

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Speaker 3: I thought, it was particularly relevant Continuing today's subject, Yeah,

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Richard Courts regular on the show. I'm pretty sure he

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has a copy of music Code By. But if you'd

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like a copy of music Code Buy, I write a

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comment on the website at don Arocks dot com or

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on the facebooks. We publish every show there and even

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comment there in a read in the show, we'll send

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you copy music Go buy, and.

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Speaker 1: Music to code By is still very popular. You can

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get it at music too Coode by dot Net. It's

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twenty two tracks, twenty five minutes long, designed to keep

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you in a state of flow while you're writing code

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and uh Yeah, let's introduced Brady Gaster based near Seattle.

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Brady aspires to make it easy for dot net developers

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to party in the cloud as the product manager behind

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Visual Studios, Azure, Write, Click, Publish, and Connected services features.

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He also helps with Aspire tooling support in Visual Studio

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and Visual Studio Code. And we're not designing new tooling

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features or writing things like you know, squad or building

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demos with teammates, He's trail running five k's, parenting two teens,

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mixing new one seventy four bpm drum and bass sets,

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or producing his own electronic music.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back, Brady, Thanks Ally, how's going? I should probably

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send you my new job description. I've moved on from

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the VS and dot net crew, who I love Dearly,

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my favorite framework of all time, and I'm over in

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Ryan Fraser's organization and the app modernization team, specifically the

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GitHub co pilot modernization product Great working on things like

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the uh working closely with the dottnet team on their

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update tool, as well as some stuff on the Java

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side and vs code, and then we have this cool

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modernized CLI that Timothy J and Hunter shot off at

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Ignite that we've been bringing.

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Speaker 4: Forward and we'll be doing more stuff with over the

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next few months. That's exciting.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I've been using gi hub Copilot Cli to

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do stuff non code related, you know, diagnosing problems with

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drivers that won't load, cleaning up Azure resources that I

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haven't used in a while, things like that. It's it's

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like AI for PowerShell. Really, it's really Yeah, it's amazing.

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So let's talk squad.

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, first of all, I thought you might have been

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working on this for years, but it was just like

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a couple of months or something, right.

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Speaker 4: Not even that, dude.

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Speaker 5: Uh So, I have been tinkering with like various agentic

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tools and frameworks all last year, specifically around the spire,

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you know, because that was where I was coming from the.

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Speaker 3: Description you just read in theory it is your job.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, in theories job.

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Speaker 5: Uh So what I was trying to do last year

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was to figure out uh yeah, because I work on

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the apps an agents team in Korea, so uh yeah,

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you agents are kind of important to us. So all

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last year I was trying to spin up essentially your

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like file new project with a prompt for Aspire devs,

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you know, to kind of say like I want to

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build a Kintoso University or whatever, and like it boof

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like build your thing. And we tried a bunch of

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experiments with it, and you know, the tech was evolving

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a bit. There was a lot of different agentic frameworks

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out there, and you know, there were a different states

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of maturity. I think we tried five six different ways,

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and at the end of the year, like the Microsoft

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Agent framework took off and started using that and got

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got a lot further. But earlier in the year, when

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I moved over to the App Organization team where we're

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looking at, you know, some of the systems and whatever,

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actually was talking to some younger pms inside of core

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A I who were you know, like, you know, three

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of us were consultants for a while. We've worked with

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you know, the tech in the industry, and you know,

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then we went on and did other things. But a

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lot of folks are new in career and they walk

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up and they're like in the App service team, it's like, hey,

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what what do we do here. You know, I have

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a product idea. Who should I talk to? You know,

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I thought it would be cool to spin up a

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couple of agents, you know, each representing you know, an

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area of the of the of the product line, and say, like,

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you represent app servers, you represent container apps, you represent this,

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you represent that. Go search the internet, go look at

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these products, get hubs and go look at their Reddit

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posts and look at their blogs and kind of assess

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what their products do. And build an agent, you know,

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based on what you think. You know, somebody in that

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you know, a PM and that product would would say

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their products, you know, issues and opportunities are and when ill.

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And it wrote pretty good instructions on its own. You know,

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well that was pretty cool. So we'll do that for

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every product in core AI. So about twenty about twenty

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minutes later, I had two hundred markdown files, you know,

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and I was like, this is neat, you know, this

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is kind of cool, right, So I asked a few

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people I'm trying to do some stuff with with get

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ub co pilot cli that we can to make it

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spin up multiple agents. I think it was just pret

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fleet pre squad for all of it, you know, and

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this it was like middle of January, and you know,

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it just wasn't It didn't feel right like something. It

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didn't look the way I'd seen it look on other

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people's screens. And I was like, this is this is?

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It looks like it's just Copilot talking to me. It

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doesn't seem like it's multiple agents. So I'm paying the

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copilot cli kind of teams thread that we have, and

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I said, could somebody's shown me a video like how

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to do this multi agency thing? And of course some

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person way smarter than me dropped in a prompt and

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the prompt said, you know, fan out and do blah

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blah blah, and I ran the prompt and all of

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a sudden, I saw those agents appearing. So then I said, oh, okay.

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Speaker 3: Like, is that the magic word? Fan out?

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Speaker 5: That was the magic I think it kind of is

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one of those magic words in Squad. It's definitely a

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magic word. I think Carl's probably figured that out, especially

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have that in our docks pretty pretty thoroughly.

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Speaker 3: And here I thought the magic word was please.

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Speaker 5: Please, so we uh, you know, I did some experimentation

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with it, and I remember it kind of got working

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on my desktop and I asked it a question, like,

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you're this product, you're that product, whatever, what should we

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do in twenty twenty six?

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Speaker 4: And it wrote a pretty good report.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 5: The report wasn't groundbreaking. You know, if you were to

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scour a GitHub for a couple of days on all

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these products, you would figure out what it.

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Speaker 4: Said, you know.

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Speaker 5: But I got pretty enamored with it. I think this

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is kind of cool. And timing's weird. Timing is a

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strange thing. So I was sitting here at my desk

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in the Purple Room and I got up from that

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experiment when did my daily run and was raining that day,

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so I didn't go outside. I did it on the treadmill,

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and I watched a show on molt book and I

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started thinking, what if I put these two ideas is together?

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Speaker 4: Right, you know?

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Speaker 5: And you know, I'm paying an executive friend of ours,

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and I said, hey, I had this thought, you know,

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and I put these agents together, and I asked them

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a question, and they kind of went off and talked

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about it, and they came back with a paper, and

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that executive said, do it for these products.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 5: I was like, maybe I have something, you know, So

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I did it for those products. Send it over feedback

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was keep going.

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Speaker 1: And if they're just writing exploring and writing documentation, right,

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00:21:27,279 --> 00:21:28,839
they're not writing code or anything.

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Speaker 5: Really, what they were doing is they were these agents

401
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at that time were scouring GitHub. So so like they

402
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,440
would go into like all of the products gethub repositories.

403
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I kind of said, only do this for products for

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00:21:40,599 --> 00:21:43,480
which you can find their GitHub, their blog and some

405
00:21:43,519 --> 00:21:45,920
Reddit commentary. You know, if you if you can't find

406
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:47,839
a lot of information, just kind of don't don't do

407
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,680
that one. Right if if they've got an active GitHub repository,

408
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,000
prioritize their issues, you know, so you know, it's get

409
00:21:54,079 --> 00:21:57,119
ub co policy Uli surprise, it can talk to get up.

410
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So it goes through and it finds all these products

411
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,440
in all these issues and writes essentially instruction files. Who

412
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better writes instruction files than a human ill alone. So

413
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essentially I just said, write a bunch of instruction files

414
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for a bunch of agents. Now spin all those agents

415
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up whenever I ask you a question. The thing that

416
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,000
blew my mind at that part, this was like pre squad,

417
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like a couple of hours before squad. The thing that

418
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,200
blew my mind at that point was if you ask

419
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,400
the coordinator copilot a question. It can go and it

420
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,559
can go. Oh, you asked me a question that touches

421
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,519
these products. I'm going to give you an answer back

422
00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:34,200
based on those products. It was really neat And I said, okay,

423
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I got to turn that inside out.

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Speaker 3: Wow, so it's got some sense of coordination right, Yeah,

425
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knowing where resources are.

426
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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was neat.

427
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,319
Speaker 1: These agents also have discussions with each other, sometimes disagree,

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and then may give you options or recommendation based on

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the consensus.

430
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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's amazing they do reach consensus. And the way

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00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,599
the instructions for the system, the squad instructions are written.

432
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An agent tries a thing and you know, fails at

433
00:23:03,599 --> 00:23:06,599
that thing. I think, I think they can try twice,

434
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and then they are not allowed.

435
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Speaker 4: To try again. They're locked out.

436
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,799
Speaker 5: So they are locked out from trying again. Another agent

437
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,799
has to try, and when that agent tries, they both

438
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,319
write in one another's history what they learned. So your

439
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,240
agents in your repo grow in terms of how efficient

440
00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:28,079
they are with your repo over time.

441
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Speaker 4: Now, I have to be honest with you.

442
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,319
Speaker 5: You mentioned context windows that will bite you later. So

443
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the agents will kind of clean up as they go. First,

444
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each agent only had like one file like charter and

445
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everything it learned it would write in there, and then

446
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,039
a lot of the other agents had other files that

447
00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:48,599
they would write like decisions DOTD That one gets pretty long.

448
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,319
All those files would get long over time, all the

449
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decisions that the agents make and whatever. So over time

450
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we've implemented things where it gets split into multiple files.

451
00:23:58,599 --> 00:24:00,400
You know, if you think about short term memory and

452
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,599
long term memory, you know, like like you know, the

453
00:24:02,599 --> 00:24:05,119
agents only need the short term memory to operate. All

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00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:06,599
of a sudden that they have a problem, they can

455
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,279
go back to their history and be like, oh, oh,

456
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I remember that, and then they can bring that back.

457
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,920
They'll also manage where their memory needs to live. They've

458
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,400
got kind of hot cold memory, so they'll put things

459
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,640
that they're not using kind of off to the side.

460
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And this is kind of Neat one of the evenings

461
00:24:24,599 --> 00:24:26,359
that I was working on it pretty late, I was

462
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,440
looking at some of the stuff Shane was doing with

463
00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:31,359
WASA and sense some of the products he's doing around

464
00:24:31,519 --> 00:24:36,279
using agentic skills. H and I started thinking skills are

465
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,279
really useful in this context. It's really just a set

466
00:24:39,319 --> 00:24:42,160
of markdown that tells the agent like what's the allies

467
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,759
to call or what tools to call or whatever you know,

468
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,480
and and the markdown for that skill kind of boxes

469
00:24:47,519 --> 00:24:50,559
the agent in to do that one thing. Hey, here's

470
00:24:50,559 --> 00:24:54,599
a new rule, squad members. Don't guess it stuff. If

471
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,759
you find that you've done something twice, the next time,

472
00:24:56,799 --> 00:24:59,039
you do it right, just skill right. So what they'll

473
00:24:59,039 --> 00:25:02,200
do is they'll actually I claude or copilot compliance skilled

474
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,960
a disc and they'll put it as low confidence, and

475
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,680
then the next time an agent does it, they leave

476
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,279
it at low confidence. The fourth time an agent uses

477
00:25:09,319 --> 00:25:11,720
that skill and does not change that skill, they'll raise

478
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,119
the confidence training and then three more times later they'll

479
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,440
raise it again. So essentially they make those skills better

480
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,519
over time. I have a skill. I'll be very frank

481
00:25:19,559 --> 00:25:21,559
with you. I have a skill that I will clone

482
00:25:21,559 --> 00:25:25,759
the squad repo once in the evening the cut the

483
00:25:25,799 --> 00:25:27,920
origin off. So I'll cut the remote off because it

484
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,519
does commit very quickly back and I'll run a report

485
00:25:31,559 --> 00:25:33,400
to kind of see how many issues, pull request and

486
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,920
whatever else are being done by public guid up depositories

487
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,440
that use squad every night. A number gets pretty big

488
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,799
every night. It's kind of cool, but I'll I'll cut

489
00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:45,640
the origin because squad will rapidly commit back because it's

490
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,559
committing its memory back. You can control that behavior, you know,

491
00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:51,160
whenever you fire up your squad, you can go, please

492
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,720
don't commit unless I tell you too.

493
00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 4: Please don't push unless I tell you too, that kind

494
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:55,319
of thing.

495
00:25:55,559 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: So I'll still like that. Squad is project specific, so

496
00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:04,119
it's not like system wide, you know, like co pilot is.

497
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,880
You have to install it at the project root and

498
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,240
then it builds the squad files and you can tell it,

499
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,960
you know, to name your squad based on popular culture things.

500
00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:23,839
Jeff Fritz used the d C Comics Universe to name

501
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:29,200
his squads. I used musicians that have played in or

502
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:30,440
for Steely Dan.

503
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 3: Nice, very specific.

504
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,519
Speaker 1: So my job is script expert was named Fagan Nice.

505
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:38,519
Speaker 4: That's good. That's good.

506
00:26:40,039 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 5: That's one thing that I find it find interesting about it.

507
00:26:43,079 --> 00:26:45,359
You know, I don't know if I think Richard knows this.

508
00:26:45,519 --> 00:26:48,799
My background is actually in psychology, a counselor, and I've

509
00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:52,720
always really loved studying the way organisms communicate and learn

510
00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:54,519
from one another and whatever. So this has always been

511
00:26:54,599 --> 00:26:56,799
fun for me. What's really fun is watching the way

512
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,279
people talk about squad, you know the way like all

513
00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:02,319
just said, you know, well, actually, you know, we have

514
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,839
a squad team where a lot of the folks that

515
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,839
work on squad kind of all over the world are

516
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,839
they're twenty four hours day. You know, we just do

517
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:11,759
this or just did this, And then all of a

518
00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:15,599
sudden the language changes, Oh, Kawayashi just did this, Finster

519
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,359
just did this, right, you know they're talking about their

520
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,039
squad members.

521
00:27:20,039 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 3: Are you giving software agency at that point? Is that

522
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:23,039
what's happening?

523
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,519
Speaker 5: That was the idea, man, That was absolutely the idea.

524
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,720
So I started, you know, there's a there's I've got

525
00:27:28,759 --> 00:27:33,240
one repo that I posted about chat SHPT was looking

526
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,359
at what I was doing in squad and it started

527
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,319
kind of commenting that it looked like it was an

528
00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:41,559
implementation of Conway's law. It was like, that's not exactly

529
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,240
Conway's law, you know, But the more I ran these

530
00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:46,200
tests more it was like, no, no, no, it's Conway's law.

531
00:27:46,559 --> 00:27:49,039
And it was like, I thought this was kind of weird, like.

532
00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:53,519
Speaker 3: Like Conway's law being everything you make reflects the organization

533
00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:56,240
that makes it. If you have three teams working on compiler,

534
00:27:56,279 --> 00:27:58,839
you get a three pass compiler right right, So.

535
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I found that be interesting. So I, you know,

536
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,720
I said, I don't know if this is really any good,

537
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,759
like like, let's let's run some tests. So I ran

538
00:28:06,799 --> 00:28:09,240
some tests. And essentially the test where take a small

539
00:28:09,799 --> 00:28:13,200
a small task like build build project, food snak game

540
00:28:13,279 --> 00:28:16,839
or whatever. You know, build build build task using squad

541
00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:19,680
you know, a team of specialized agents once the assess

542
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,279
agent almost said person again, uh one job script agent,

543
00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:25,119
et cetera, et cetera. You know, so so one of

544
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,160
each of these skills. You know, I'm waiting for somebody

545
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,319
to do the uh special set of skills thing. But

546
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,920
you know, when you when you throw a task at

547
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,319
a team of specialists, what is the comparison to if

548
00:28:38,359 --> 00:28:41,440
you throw with that same task at a team of

549
00:28:41,519 --> 00:28:45,480
generic agents. And in this case, it was a small,

550
00:28:46,279 --> 00:28:49,359
you know, small thing like build build small app, but

551
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,559
it was roughly twenty percent and basically what you if

552
00:28:54,119 --> 00:28:56,440
I could run through the metrics. You can't really look

553
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,960
on screen, but you look at the metrics, uh, you know,

554
00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:02,279
like the specialist there were one hundred and two tests,

555
00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:04,640
the generics there were one hundred and eight. Not always

556
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,400
a bad thing. All the tests passed in both areas.

557
00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:12,039
All source files changed on the specialist seven whereas on

558
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,839
the generic it was nine. Lines of code for the

559
00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:18,759
Specialist was thirteen forty five whereas the Generic was sixteen hundred.

560
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,160
Model file is in task JS lines two forty versus

561
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:28,480
two ninety eight, route file lines versus one forty four,

562
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,640
migration file lines. I thought it was interesting thirty one

563
00:29:31,759 --> 00:29:35,839
versus fifty nine, test file organization three versus five, and

564
00:29:35,839 --> 00:29:38,519
then separate audit model and no versus Yes, so it

565
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:40,200
kind of went through some of the different things, like

566
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,200
it was a little bit faster with the Specialist, the

567
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,519
code was a little cleaner, and it definitely felt like

568
00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:48,240
it was more organized. The argument there was, this is

569
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,319
a small initiative that you ran for like ten to

570
00:29:50,359 --> 00:29:53,680
fifteen minutes. What if it was a modernization exercise, sure,

571
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,559
but if it was, like, you know, a large scale

572
00:29:56,599 --> 00:29:59,240
project like I don't know, community server or something like that, you.

573
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:04,279
Speaker 3: Know, forty eight hours, look like right, yeah, yeah, wow.

574
00:30:04,079 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 4: So that got pretty interesting. That's pretty cool.

575
00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 3: But it also speaks to a pattern I think we're

576
00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:14,799
going to see where over time, you're going to have

577
00:30:14,839 --> 00:30:17,119
a set of agents specific to an application, like as

578
00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:21,599
a product goes into maintenance, the tooling set's going to

579
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,279
know more about the software than a person anymore. And

580
00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:28,279
and the fact that it's what you've worked through multiple

581
00:30:28,319 --> 00:30:30,480
versions with these tools means it's going to give you

582
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,559
a pretty strict guidance on how to add a feature

583
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,880
or evolve the code at all to the betterment of

584
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,599
everything like that. In some ways, one would argue, unlike

585
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,920
most software, this your product under this environment will get

586
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,319
better version to version because the tooling will get stronger.

587
00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:50,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the that's that's the idea, that's the aim.

588
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,119
You know that contact window will bite you every time, dude,

589
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,599
Like it really really will. And you know one thing

590
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,920
that people talk about with the context window. Let's take

591
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,839
Opus or Sonic as a for instance. You know you

592
00:31:00,839 --> 00:31:03,799
have a two hundred thousand token limit on all a message.

593
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,119
So you send a message, if that message is going

594
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,599
to write a novel, you're gonna blow your window. So

595
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:09,960
you're not gonna be to get all back because you

596
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,119
get that limit. So let's say you have a squad,

597
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,960
say you've got a squad five, Well, guess what your

598
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,519
your window per message is a million. Now, because each

599
00:31:20,599 --> 00:31:22,920
one of the agents has two hundred thousand, so they

600
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,039
can go back and there the other little thing and

601
00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:27,880
have their conversation and come back. Now do you use

602
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:33,039
more tokens? Yes, yes, you will use more tokens. You know,

603
00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:37,240
Jeremy just posted an interesting Twitter where he's got like

604
00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:39,119
a it looks like a hockey stick, you know, Like

605
00:31:39,319 --> 00:31:41,680
he started using squad and it was a vertical line.

606
00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:43,960
And I've talked to some folks who start using it.

607
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,279
They see that experience and then it drops because the

608
00:31:46,279 --> 00:31:48,519
agents get better so they have to work less.

609
00:31:49,599 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: Well, you also pay. We get up co pilot cli

610
00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:57,720
by the request, not by the token, so that's that's good.

611
00:31:58,119 --> 00:32:01,279
I mean it's more a fit shouldn't request wise, but

612
00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:04,480
token wise. You can see that in the demo that

613
00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:09,400
Fritz and I did. It was quickly over a million tokens.

614
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 5: But I think the benefit the thing that I would

615
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,759
wonder I'd love to do research on this. If you're

616
00:32:14,799 --> 00:32:18,359
having a single threaded conversation with Copilot, which is you know,

617
00:32:18,519 --> 00:32:22,440
fantastic models are fantastic. If you're having that single threaded

618
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,240
conversation and you're not a prompt engineer, are you going

619
00:32:25,319 --> 00:32:26,799
to be as efficient as if you were to ask

620
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:30,119
a bunch of experts, experts, go solve this problem for me.

621
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,359
You know, I right, so far, I'm so far. I'm

622
00:32:33,359 --> 00:32:36,640
compelled me too, you know it feels Yeah.

623
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,039
Speaker 3: Process of communicating with experts is not simple either.

624
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:39,559
Speaker 4: Well it's not.

625
00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 3: Maybe we should take a break.

626
00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's take a break. We'll be right back after

627
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:49,160
these very important messages, and we're back. It's dot net Rocks.

628
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,400
I'm Carl Franklin, That's Richard Campbell, and that's Brady Gaster.

629
00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:58,119
We're talking Squad multi agent team that you can deploy

630
00:32:58,319 --> 00:33:02,000
and employ for or your projects that will help everything

631
00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:05,240
go real smooth. I wanted to tell you that I

632
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,119
immediately got to work with Squad and quickly found out

633
00:33:09,119 --> 00:33:11,680
that I had an old version of GitHub Cli that

634
00:33:11,759 --> 00:33:16,599
it didn't like gethub copilot cli. So I updated that

635
00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:19,839
and got in the pre release, which means that it'll

636
00:33:19,839 --> 00:33:23,680
automatically install new releases when they come out, and boom,

637
00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:28,000
everything worked. The app that I'm writing with it, and

638
00:33:28,039 --> 00:33:30,079
I can't believe it, but I've only been working on

639
00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:32,839
it for a few days in my spare time and

640
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,200
it's almost done. Is a you're gonna like this, Brady

641
00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:41,759
it's a remote daw digital audio workstation, so it doesn't

642
00:33:41,759 --> 00:33:44,440
have all the features of a digital audio workstation, but

643
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,119
it looks the same. Like it's got tracks, and you

644
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:53,039
have a remote artist at a home studio whatever, and

645
00:33:53,079 --> 00:33:56,960
they connect and you connect them with an authorization, and

646
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,759
you play. You load up a backing track, which is

647
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,880
you know, a stereo track of what they're going to

648
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,440
perform to, whether it's singing or playing keyboards or guitar

649
00:34:06,559 --> 00:34:10,519
or whatever. And then you basically, you know, you can

650
00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:13,599
control their devices and your devices and which devices are

651
00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:15,960
going to be used. There's automatic talk back which you

652
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,119
can mute, and then you basically push the record button

653
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,599
and streams to the artists and they hear, you know,

654
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,320
the backing track, and then they record and you see

655
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,280
the waveform just like when you're recording locally, and it

656
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,800
syncs up. And that's the that's the hardest thing that

657
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,440
I had to do was making the synk happen because

658
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:44,559
and this caused many discussions between the agents about you know,

659
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:46,280
how are we going to do this with the math,

660
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,800
and maybe we have to do some tests and figure

661
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,079
out because all of these little things. Then in the

662
00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:57,840
jobscript audio basically take time. Yeah, and so how do

663
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,880
you estimate that if you don't do a test and

664
00:35:02,039 --> 00:35:04,599
you know see what that timing is, because it's going

665
00:35:04,679 --> 00:35:07,760
to be different on every machine. So but that's where

666
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:08,480
we're working.

667
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 5: On you and not talked about it. You and I

668
00:35:10,519 --> 00:35:12,280
talked about a system a long time ago like that.

669
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,199
It was an idea that I brought you when I

670
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,360
was the signal or you know fanboy. I think I

671
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,000
came up to you in Orlando and I was like, so,

672
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:20,760
I want to talk to you about this this thing.

673
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,039
I was thinking about building a signal R thing where

674
00:35:23,079 --> 00:35:26,199
we would basically transmit MIDI over Signal R so we

675
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,840
could have like remote sessions. And you were like, do

676
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,960
you know the do you know the latency tolerance? And

677
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,719
I was like what you were like point six milliseconds

678
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,280
and I was like it's not going to work and

679
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:36,800
you were like, no, it's not going to work, and

680
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,400
you were like and you're a drummer, so it's like

681
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:39,000
point three.

682
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm excited you're doing that. I want to see that, mate.

683
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:44,960
It's going to MIDI.

684
00:35:45,119 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: If you have a long MIDI cable, you're going to

685
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:52,719
get some latency. Let alone the Internet. Yeah, I've done

686
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:58,840
some many things over the Internet with UDP and it's fun,

687
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,960
but it's not real time. There's no way.

688
00:36:02,119 --> 00:36:04,079
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Pete told me to. He's like, no, dude,

689
00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:05,039
don't you're gonna don't.

690
00:36:05,119 --> 00:36:05,599
Speaker 4: Don't do it.

691
00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:09,079
Speaker 3: People have tried to clear the Internet is not real time.

692
00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: I told you about that conversation I had with Should

693
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:13,360
I say his name?

694
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 3: All right, well your call man. It's a famous story

695
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:17,280
for me anyway.

696
00:36:17,519 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a famous I won't say his name, but

697
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,199
it was back in early days of dot net rocks

698
00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:26,960
and one of the listeners we had a we had

699
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,239
an IRC channel open, and he says, hey, this, I'm

700
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,079
the web guy for this artist right who everybody would

701
00:36:35,119 --> 00:36:37,320
know who he is. And he wants to give you

702
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,199
a call like what Yeah, he wants to do remote

703
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:47,480
recording and jamming over the internet. And so he calls me.

704
00:36:48,639 --> 00:36:51,280
I'm amazed, you know, and he says, I want to

705
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:57,639
do real time jamming between California and Europe. And I said,

706
00:36:57,679 --> 00:37:00,960
when you say real time jamming, do you mean one, two,

707
00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:04,320
three go and we play together? And he said yeah,

708
00:37:04,519 --> 00:37:09,039
and he said that's not going to happen. You're constrained

709
00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:12,480
by the speed of light. Yea, even if you had

710
00:37:12,519 --> 00:37:16,679
a fiber optic cable stretched between California and Europe and

711
00:37:17,039 --> 00:37:19,320
you you know, light a bit at one end, it's

712
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,480
going to take time to get to the other end,

713
00:37:21,599 --> 00:37:25,320
and then that person has to hear it, respond and

714
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,400
send it back and by the time it gets back

715
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:33,440
to you, it's completely useless. So he abandoned that project.

716
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,400
But it was a fun conversation to have. You have

717
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,159
to persuade him. I did, and he was He started

718
00:37:41,159 --> 00:37:44,719
talking about Apple coming out with some software and yeah,

719
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,079
I'm sorry, but Steve Jobs can't change the laws of physics.

720
00:37:48,119 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 4: No, it's not gonna work. It's like that commercial. It's

721
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:52,440
not gonna fit be late.

722
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 3: It's not just a law.

723
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: So I started this by saying, I used I'm using

724
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,039
squad to develop this Apple cation and it's just amazing,

725
00:38:02,599 --> 00:38:05,840
like how fast things are coming together and how I

726
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,280
can give it real feedback, Like, you know, why are

727
00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:11,679
why are you taking so much vertical space? We need

728
00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:14,000
this space for track, So let's consolidate and put some

729
00:38:14,039 --> 00:38:16,880
of these buttons on the same place so they're not

730
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,360
taking up all this room. Oh yeah, yeah, good idea.

731
00:38:19,519 --> 00:38:20,559
Boom done.

732
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,639
Speaker 5: Just great, that's cool, that's cool. My my favorite one is, uh,

733
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,119
I've done this a bunch too. I'm gonna give you

734
00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:31,519
some bad news here in a second. So my favorite

735
00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:37,400
one is the hiring. You know talked about hiring. Yeah,

736
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,440
so I don't you might not even know this. So

737
00:38:40,519 --> 00:38:44,360
let's say you either do you know file new squad

738
00:38:44,519 --> 00:38:47,559
if you will, or you injected squad into an existing

739
00:38:47,559 --> 00:38:50,880
repote and they look around and they go, this is

740
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,360
what or the coordinator looks around and says, this is

741
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,679
who you need and you go cool, cool, cool, and

742
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,920
you you add those squad members to your team and

743
00:38:58,119 --> 00:38:58,800
you're partying.

744
00:38:58,920 --> 00:38:59,079
Speaker 1: You know.

745
00:38:59,679 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 5: I'm like, you're you're off and running and everything's good

746
00:39:02,039 --> 00:39:04,199
and and and uh, you know, all of a sudden,

747
00:39:04,199 --> 00:39:08,760
you're like, shoot, like, every single time you make a diagram,

748
00:39:09,159 --> 00:39:10,039
you'll you'll see this.

749
00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:10,599
Speaker 4: They do this.

750
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: It draws me.

751
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,119
Speaker 4: Every time you make a diagram, you do it in

752
00:39:14,199 --> 00:39:17,440
Askei art in the Marktown. Why would you do that, dude?

753
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,880
Like do it in Mermaid, you know, speaking of which.

754
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:22,559
Speaker 5: None of you were good at this. So would you

755
00:39:22,599 --> 00:39:26,119
please hire a Mermaid author and do your best to

756
00:39:26,159 --> 00:39:28,480
go and learn? Like all the color codes, all the

757
00:39:28,519 --> 00:39:31,079
tricks like how to organize the squares, like go look

758
00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:34,159
at like Mermaid standards and practices and like the best

759
00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:36,679
way to do Mermaid diagrams. Hire a Mermaid you know,

760
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,599
you know, designer to my team. Naming it's weird depending

761
00:39:39,639 --> 00:39:42,639
on you know, your your age, you think of like

762
00:39:42,679 --> 00:39:45,840
the Little Mermaid as your universe or ten or whatever.

763
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,000
I had no idea, you know what I mean, I

764
00:39:47,199 --> 00:39:48,639
have no idea how you would name that one. But

765
00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:53,119
you know, I bring that Mermaid author to everything because

766
00:39:53,159 --> 00:39:55,039
like they always do ASKI art, and I'm like, don't

767
00:39:55,039 --> 00:39:57,159
ever do that again. Make it right in your charter.

768
00:39:57,599 --> 00:40:00,440
Don't ever do ask you art anything diagrams. Hand it

769
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,719
to you know, Ariel or whoever, and and let the

770
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,079
Mermaid author do it.

771
00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:06,079
Speaker 4: All, okay.

772
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,559
Speaker 5: So I found that that was something that I had

773
00:40:08,599 --> 00:40:11,079
to do in every squad, and I was like, gosh,

774
00:40:11,159 --> 00:40:13,880
it's sort of irksome, you know that, Like I have

775
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:15,920
to do this in every one of my squads, the

776
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,639
same thing a git operator, you know, like I'll knock

777
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:20,480
the cat in every squad because like I don't like

778
00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:22,559
doing all the good stuff, So I'll have somebody who's

779
00:40:22,559 --> 00:40:25,639
a GIT expert in each squad. You can hire a

780
00:40:25,639 --> 00:40:29,159
squad member later. You can also send them on vacation.

781
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,239
They go, they get archived that you can bring them

782
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:34,960
back with all their knowledge later if you want to.

783
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,320
But you know, some people started saying, like I do

784
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,280
the same thing, Like I have this one that I'll

785
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,639
bring to every project. And then people started saying the

786
00:40:44,639 --> 00:40:48,239
obvious things. Could I just have them on my machine?

787
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,639
Can I can I instat CLA locally?

788
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 4: I'm like, kind of not what.

789
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: It's for, and like it's project specific.

790
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,199
Speaker 5: I started, yes, project specific, guys, like what you know,

791
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,320
everybody that used it. You know, It's like they're sort

792
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,599
of this like like the phases they go through. The

793
00:41:03,599 --> 00:41:05,920
first phase is all this is cool. The second phase

794
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,039
is oh, I love the cast members and the naming.

795
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,320
The third phase is wow, this is really powerful. The

796
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,159
fourth phase is I want this to do more than

797
00:41:13,199 --> 00:41:16,840
just inside my repo, right, And that always goes through

798
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,280
that And that fourth one is where we came up

799
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,639
with the idea of extending the entire capability outside of

800
00:41:23,679 --> 00:41:25,800
it just being one JavaScript file and a whole bunch

801
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,199
of markdown that copilot knows what to do with inside

802
00:41:28,199 --> 00:41:32,119
of your repo. We've replatted it using typescript on top

803
00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:35,519
of the co Pilot SDK, and we've split it into

804
00:41:35,559 --> 00:41:39,039
two packages. So now you have a CLI that's built

805
00:41:39,039 --> 00:41:41,480
on top of the co Pilot SDK, and that CLI

806
00:41:41,599 --> 00:41:44,280
just has different commands like higher. It's got a special

807
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,239
command called higher. You can like give it and give

808
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,239
it the thing you want, and you can there is

809
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,000
that there is a rebel experience. It's quite poor at

810
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,800
the moment. That's why I've been really slowly to release it.

811
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,039
Maybe by the time the show was out of it

812
00:41:56,079 --> 00:41:57,840
to be out, I just wanted to experiment with the

813
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,800
idea of using the copilot s and some cars probably seen.

814
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,280
I think you emailed me a couple of days ago.

815
00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:07,199
The squad doesn't always fire. I have to say team,

816
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,880
I have to say fan out, I have to say Kobayashi,

817
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,320
I have to say whoever, and then it will do

818
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,400
the thing. But Copilot really likes to help me, and

819
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,639
sometimes I want Copilot to not help me. I want

820
00:42:17,639 --> 00:42:19,360
my squad to help me. So I thought, well, let

821
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:20,960
me just build a repel where we just sell on

822
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,800
top of the SDK. Copilot does all the work in

823
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,360
the background. But the squad does their coordination themselves. Surprising

824
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,559
how many other issues that relies on me. So I've

825
00:42:31,559 --> 00:42:34,440
been working through that. But you know, I said two packages,

826
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,239
so you should probably guess what the second is. Squad's

827
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,400
going to have its own SDK, so you'll be able

828
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,880
to build things using the Squad SDK. You'll be able

829
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,559
to inject squads into things. So wow, it's going to

830
00:42:44,599 --> 00:42:44,920
be fun.

831
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 3: So I see some sort of configuration as code for

832
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,880
setting up squads for new projects coming then.

833
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, well you also be able to do You'll be

834
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,480
able to install it globally, so you can actually install

835
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,599
the squad Cli globally, which means that you can do

836
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:03,280
squad in it dash dash Global. You can have your

837
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,960
own personal squad and they go from project to project

838
00:43:06,039 --> 00:43:08,519
with you, so I can take my Mermaid Diagram author

839
00:43:08,559 --> 00:43:11,159
with me to every project as a consultant, and you could.

840
00:43:11,039 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: Still customize project on a project basis, like if one

841
00:43:14,039 --> 00:43:16,519
project is in Blazer and another one is in View,

842
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,360
obviously you want different agents.

843
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 5: So I could have my own team and just bring

844
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,400
them from project project as I want to. Within two

845
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,840
three days of us starting to use this internally, one

846
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:27,159
of the guys on the Akas team.

847
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,079
Speaker 4: James Startivant had built a tool.

848
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,119
Speaker 5: Called Rally Rally or Squad, and the idea behind it

849
00:43:33,159 --> 00:43:34,639
is he's doing a lot of work on a lot

850
00:43:34,639 --> 00:43:38,920
of repositories, so he doesn't want the process of putting

851
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:40,599
the squad in and he didn't want to get store

852
00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:43,559
at all, and oh it's terrible, So he would simblink

853
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,599
like it was almost like Squad is a service. He

854
00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:49,360
would simplink Squad into each repo, run his thing, file

855
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,559
the issue, and then back out again. So it was

856
00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:54,760
like the only thing he would do would get into

857
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:57,800
the repo, file the issue in that GETUB repository on

858
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,400
whatever team it was, and then pull back out again.

859
00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:02,239
So if you think about what that implies, you could

860
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,039
use it for securityology, you can use it for you

861
00:44:05,079 --> 00:44:06,800
could use it for like filing issues.

862
00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 4: I pained Mike len in one of our mvbs.

863
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,199
Speaker 3: So would you end up leaving like some decision files

864
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,079
or skills and things behind in each project that were

865
00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:16,880
specific to the project for the next you do set

866
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,559
to come in and and sort of have a head start.

867
00:44:19,679 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 5: You do you can you can do At first, When

868
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,079
I first did Squad, I had this weird guard setup

869
00:44:26,119 --> 00:44:30,719
where it would block you, uh, putting your putting your

870
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,719
squad into main, like whatever your main branch is, it

871
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,400
will block you from putting it in there. Carl, you

872
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,480
might want to do an update I just shipped over three.

873
00:44:39,559 --> 00:44:42,079
It'll be the last one that removes that block, okay,

874
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,920
because that block is actually in the source code as well.

875
00:44:45,039 --> 00:44:47,119
So if so, if the squad looks and sees that

876
00:44:47,159 --> 00:44:49,440
block is not on disc, it'll recreate it for you.

877
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,960
So you get into this horrible loop of like deleting

878
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,199
it and gets recreated every time.

879
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: I like having the option of putting the squad files

880
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,079
and a squad folder in the repo or not. You know,

881
00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:03,239
I like to have that option. And you know, what

882
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,960
I'm thinking of is some sort of tool at the

883
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:12,639
at the command line where I could list my squads

884
00:45:12,639 --> 00:45:15,880
and I could name them right, And so if I

885
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,039
have a Blazer app squad, or if I have a

886
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:25,400
you know, Windows and a WPF squad, for example, I'd

887
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,719
like to be able to select which one that I'm using.

888
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:29,559
That's good, I get to the project.

889
00:45:29,199 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 5: That's good, I will get you to file an issue

890
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:33,719
on the repo for that shortly cool.

891
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 3: So yeah, you can also imagine when you're doing a

892
00:45:36,119 --> 00:45:38,159
rally like that. You just look at the project. You

893
00:45:38,159 --> 00:45:40,599
know what libraries are in there with packages you're pulling in,

894
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,039
you know what squad members you need.

895
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 5: That's exactly right. I mean the other day I'll pulled

896
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,840
one of our and you can also do it in reverse.

897
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:49,079
So you know, I build a lot of demos.

898
00:45:49,159 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: Right.

899
00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 5: The other day we had this We have this event

900
00:45:52,679 --> 00:45:55,360
and the event has a pre recorded demo. That pre

901
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,480
recorded demo had some Java stuff and some Dott stuff

902
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,079
and you know, I'm so great at Java not so

903
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,360
what I You know, we kind of have like a

904
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,360
rushy situation. It was like, oh, we got to have

905
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:11,079
the video done and whatever days. What's our sample app?

906
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,119
So people were like, well, we could use this sample app.

907
00:46:13,119 --> 00:46:15,280
We could use that sample apps like give me an hour.

908
00:46:16,039 --> 00:46:20,199
So you know, I basically fed it. You talk about architecture,

909
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,599
pardon me, marketing friends, You feed it all of the

910
00:46:23,599 --> 00:46:28,639
features you want to show, and you say, build me

911
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:33,480
a demo app, and it builds the demo app based

912
00:46:33,519 --> 00:46:36,079
on the features you want to show. And then we

913
00:46:36,159 --> 00:46:38,239
walked through and we just did the thing, and I

914
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,599
was like I cannot believe that that worked so well.

915
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,679
And at one point one of the folks on the

916
00:46:42,679 --> 00:46:45,000
team they said, hey, the way this app is built,

917
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,159
we can't show this one feature. You would need to

918
00:46:47,159 --> 00:46:51,679
split it into two projects. Give me five minutes, squad,

919
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,000
no problem. It was great and it saved us. I mean,

920
00:46:56,079 --> 00:46:58,360
you know how that fire drove can be. You know,

921
00:46:58,559 --> 00:47:02,480
like before the demo, you know, so you know.

922
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:06,280
Speaker 1: The worst thing is tearing apart stuff from projects and

923
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,519
moving them to other projects the worst because.

924
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, so so that was fun. I mean it can just.

925
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,119
Speaker 1: Look at your dependencies and go and you're done.

926
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,639
Speaker 3: I mean you're taking advantage of the fact that these

927
00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:21,920
tools are so naturally detail orient you know that they

928
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,639
do read through the lines, they don't fade off sixty

929
00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:27,119
lines in the way humans do.

930
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:34,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, like another one that's fun. Grab a repo that

931
00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:36,199
you don't know anything about. You can have the squad

932
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,519
tell you about it. Or you could say, hire a

933
00:47:39,639 --> 00:47:43,760
revealed JS designer and build me a presentation that tells.

934
00:47:43,599 --> 00:47:44,760
Speaker 4: Me what's in there.

935
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 5: You go a few minutes later, you're hitting the writer okay,

936
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,840
going oh oh that's cool, that's cool, that's cool.

937
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta tell you how I started this project.

938
00:47:53,639 --> 00:47:57,000
I started by, you know, getting my squad together, telling

939
00:47:57,039 --> 00:47:59,559
it what, you know, the skills that I needed. You

940
00:47:59,599 --> 00:48:02,320
know that Fagan was the JavaScript guy and all this

941
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:06,840
stuff and his blazer, and I gave it just a

942
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,119
one paragraph and I said, here, based on what you

943
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,480
know about this, can you write me a document where

944
00:48:14,679 --> 00:48:19,320
I can fill out all the specifics of this app

945
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,920
in a detailed spec so that we can move on

946
00:48:23,039 --> 00:48:26,480
from there, because it's not enough just to you know,

947
00:48:26,559 --> 00:48:31,280
here's a couple of paragraphs and boom go. And it said, yeah, sure.

948
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,559
So it built me this mdfile with you know, this

949
00:48:33,639 --> 00:48:37,280
goes here, this goes there, what are the decisions that

950
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,400
are made? What do these views look like? And it

951
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,679
took me, you know, an hour maybe two hours to

952
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,960
fill out. And I went back to squad and I said, okay,

953
00:48:48,519 --> 00:48:52,400
here's the detailed spec. Let's come up with a plan

954
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:58,280
and come up with phases that we can build, you know,

955
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,400
one at a time, and take it from there. And

956
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,679
it did. And we started with phase one and we

957
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,119
moved through things. We had to adjust things, and I

958
00:49:07,159 --> 00:49:12,159
told it to adjust the adjust the plan and also

959
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,599
create an implementation document with everything that it did nice,

960
00:49:17,679 --> 00:49:21,079
you know, and so we kept that going throughout the

961
00:49:21,079 --> 00:49:25,119
whole process. And from that, when I'm done, I'm going

962
00:49:25,159 --> 00:49:28,599
to say, okay, take this implementation plan and create a

963
00:49:28,679 --> 00:49:29,320
user manual.

964
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, boom hop you're done.

965
00:49:31,039 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: You create a help file.

966
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you can even tell it. So this is

967
00:49:34,679 --> 00:49:36,280
something you should try next time. So how about what

968
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:37,800
you were doing there as you were writing everything to

969
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,280
the docs folder on your disc. So the next time

970
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,719
you do that when you start the repo, go ahead

971
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,880
and say, you know, go ahead, go into copilot and say,

972
00:49:47,559 --> 00:49:50,000
so you're in a get repository because you've started a

973
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,239
squad and you're you're in pre personal squad, so you

974
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,719
know you've got to get repo, Say go ahead and

975
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,960
create a ge hub repository before this get repo. Go

976
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,960
ahead and commit everything you can even say, like in

977
00:50:04,079 --> 00:50:06,880
what organization you want it in, and we'll do it.

978
00:50:07,679 --> 00:50:10,559
And instead of you saying, create me a pr D,

979
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,480
you can say, create me a pr D as a

980
00:50:13,519 --> 00:50:18,559
single gethub issue. Then split that GitHub issue into the

981
00:50:18,679 --> 00:50:21,719
individual work items and make sure you label it so

982
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,400
that each team member knows what they're supposed to do

983
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,280
and it will go off and break all those into issues,

984
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,679
and then you can say, Ralph, please start working and

985
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,320
work every issue until it's done. And Ralph is the

986
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,440
permanent team member who works like the Ralph flup, he

987
00:50:36,519 --> 00:50:38,239
will spin up and he will begin to work those

988
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,960
issues and like wake up team members and assign the

989
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,000
issues to the team members, and you will see the

990
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,199
work getting done. And you could even say, do not

991
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,679
commit to Maine directly, always do full request.

992
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 2: I do that.

993
00:50:48,519 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you'll see the issues get filed. So that's cool.

994
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 1: I didn't want to just let it loose and say, okay,

995
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,360
do all these things. I wanted to go in phases

996
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,800
and test them out, you know. Yeah, of course, because

997
00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:59,679
that's the way I work. I love to work that way.

998
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:02,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah, it's like spec driven development.

999
00:51:02,639 --> 00:51:05,559
Speaker 1: Phase two can happen until I've signed off on phase

1000
00:51:05,599 --> 00:51:06,599
one exactly. Yeah.

1001
00:51:06,639 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 3: I keep thinking about get Hub spec Kit, but I

1002
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,719
think it's got its own it LM approach too, So

1003
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,519
you know that the two aren't going to meet.

1004
00:51:15,519 --> 00:51:20,639
Speaker 5: Well, it's definitely, it's definitely a different approach. It's a

1005
00:51:20,679 --> 00:51:24,079
great tool, it's a fantastic tool, but in our case,

1006
00:51:24,599 --> 00:51:26,480
you wouldn't sit there and write this spec. You would

1007
00:51:26,519 --> 00:51:28,320
have a conversation with your team and have your team

1008
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,119
write this back, and then you would manually tweak the

1009
00:51:30,119 --> 00:51:31,840
spec or talk to the team and have them tweak

1010
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,599
the spec, and then have them break it up into

1011
00:51:33,639 --> 00:51:36,360
work items and have them come up with the success

1012
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,039
criteria for each one of those issues and then say go,

1013
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:41,000
you know, and you're going to have it work issue

1014
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,360
by issue, or you can have it work as Carl

1015
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,840
is saying, you know in like milestone by milestone kind

1016
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:46,519
of right.

1017
00:51:46,559 --> 00:51:48,639
Speaker 3: And it occurs to me because keep thinking like why

1018
00:51:48,639 --> 00:51:51,559
do I have a JavaScript agent when I could just

1019
00:51:51,599 --> 00:51:54,880
have the do everything agent. It's the token problem, right,

1020
00:51:55,039 --> 00:51:57,360
you want to decompose this down so you stay away

1021
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:58,039
from token limit.

1022
00:51:58,119 --> 00:52:02,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, because each of these agents live in their own world, right,

1023
00:52:02,599 --> 00:52:04,599
and they don't need to know the big picture. You

1024
00:52:04,639 --> 00:52:08,320
don't need to provide all that system prompt right, you know,

1025
00:52:08,679 --> 00:52:11,280
for they just need to know how to fix a problem.

1026
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, they know how to do that future And the

1027
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,599
other reason you never want to have that superagent is

1028
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,079
that's very hallucinatory.

1029
00:52:19,159 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know what I mean.

1030
00:52:20,039 --> 00:52:22,159
Speaker 5: If you have if you have an agent with no

1031
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:25,599
training or no specific constructions or no specific role. They're

1032
00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:28,719
going to hungry, hungry hippo all the work, right, you know,

1033
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,239
so like they're going to fight over work.

1034
00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 3: And they're going to blow their context in their tokens

1035
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:35,199
quickly and not give you results.

1036
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, the specificity wins.

1037
00:52:37,199 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 5: I had a call the other day with a gentleman

1038
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:40,800
way smarter than me when it comes to all this stuff,

1039
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,599
and he was like, everybody in an industry knows that,

1040
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:46,960
Like that's you know, everybody knows that, like.

1041
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 3: That is the core piece of knowledge. You may have

1042
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,119
to learn the hard way is you know, you do

1043
00:52:52,199 --> 00:52:53,920
not want the mother of all prompts.

1044
00:52:54,159 --> 00:52:56,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, yeah, I mean all this stuff is just

1045
00:52:56,199 --> 00:52:58,760
object orientation. You know, it's just the same a lot

1046
00:52:58,760 --> 00:52:59,119
of ways.

1047
00:52:59,159 --> 00:52:59,639
Speaker 4: It's the same.

1048
00:52:59,679 --> 00:53:04,079
Speaker 3: It's the same composition decomposition. Right, we don't have to

1049
00:53:04,119 --> 00:53:08,760
get each strategy had a form of decomposition. It's all

1050
00:53:09,039 --> 00:53:11,760
take smaller bites, right, that's the whole thing. You can

1051
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:13,559
eat the whole elephant, but you gotta eat it one

1052
00:53:13,599 --> 00:53:14,840
bite at the time, exactly.

1053
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:18,519
Speaker 1: That suspice to meat the ball.

1054
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 3: That's a lot of that's what that is.

1055
00:53:24,639 --> 00:53:27,199
Speaker 1: So it sounds like you're you're just going to keep

1056
00:53:27,199 --> 00:53:29,920
going and going and going, and pretty soon, who knows,

1057
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,519
maybe we'll be running our operating systems with squads or our.

1058
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:37,199
Speaker 4: Whole I don't know, man, I'm I'm whole businesses.

1059
00:53:37,559 --> 00:53:41,519
Speaker 5: I'm frankly, uh, it's been a little bit overwhelming, you know.

1060
00:53:41,679 --> 00:53:45,760
I started the project. I remember I was outside. It

1061
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,880
was the Super Bowl Sunday and uh gowks and I

1062
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,000
was cooking something, you know, for people coming over that day,

1063
00:53:52,559 --> 00:53:55,559
and I had squad working. I've been telling Shane about it,

1064
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:57,320
and I texted Shane and I was like, I want

1065
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:58,840
to aim squad at your project.

1066
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,119
Speaker 4: And he was like, don't do that. I don't no, no,

1067
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:02,920
he was like, don't do that. I don't do that.

1068
00:54:03,159 --> 00:54:04,599
Speaker 5: I was like, I'm just gonna write a report because

1069
00:54:04,599 --> 00:54:06,000
I don't want you to write a report. He goes,

1070
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,199
I have people working on that problems Like it's fine.

1071
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,280
So I pulled this thing. I aimed a squad at it.

1072
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:13,320
I was like, write a proposal for what Shane should

1073
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,480
do with this project. I sent a proposal like ten

1074
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,800
minutes later. He was like working, He's in squad. He's

1075
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:24,039
suppol request. A couple of hours later, so he's like

1076
00:54:24,079 --> 00:54:25,960
starting to use it, like during the super Bowl or

1077
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:27,840
something to text each other. And you know, my friends

1078
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,280
are sitting on the cop so like seem really amped up.

1079
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:32,679
I'm like, I think I just released a successful open

1080
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:33,559
source project.

1081
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:38,559
Speaker 3: So yeah, well, and you know, did the thing people need,

1082
00:54:38,599 --> 00:54:42,199
which is tooling, right. I don't need to hear about

1083
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:45,960
another model I need. I need a set of scaffolds

1084
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,760
around how I actually get work done.

1085
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:53,679
Speaker 5: I need a special set of skills. Yes, but I'm

1086
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,960
happy people are enjoying it. You know, keep the issues coming,

1087
00:54:57,039 --> 00:54:59,519
keep the great commentary coming, you know, keep the stars

1088
00:54:59,519 --> 00:55:03,000
coming place. You bet, it's been really fun. I think

1089
00:55:03,159 --> 00:55:08,320
get hub blog Mike features soon. We're having conversation. But

1090
00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:11,800
it's been fun. You tell your friends, tell your nerver bets.

1091
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,519
Speaker 1: Awesome. Awesome, Brady, Thanks, thanks so much for writing this

1092
00:55:14,559 --> 00:55:17,480
great tool and sharing it with us. Have fun with

1093
00:55:17,519 --> 00:55:19,360
it all right, and we'll talk to you next time

1094
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:42,960
on dot net rocks. Dot net rocks is brought to

1095
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,760
you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a

1096
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:51,320
full service audio, video and post production facility located physically

1097
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,119
in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud

1098
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:59,000
online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d

1099
00:55:59,079 --> 00:56:01,079
O T N E t R O c k S

1100
00:56:01,159 --> 00:56:06,199
dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and

1101
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,239
access to the full archives going back to show number one,

1102
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,920
recorded in September two thousand and two. And make sure

1103
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,199
you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now,

1104
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,480
go write some code. See you next time.

1105
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:21,159
Speaker 4: You got JAD middle vans

1106
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 3: And